Meek’s Cutoff: Why It Belongs in the Pantheon

19:09Adam Kempenaar:When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about and they are experts at everything

19:18Josh Larsen:Here at the Nick Dick and Paul Show we're not afraid to make mistakes

19:22Adam Kempenaar:What Coogler did that I think was so unique he's the writer-director.

19:27Josh Larsen:Who do you think he is? I don't know. You mean, like, the president? You think Canada has a president, you think China has a president, the La Cruzette. God, I love that thing. I use it all the time. I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it at night. It's like the old Polish saying, not my monkeys, not my circus. Yep. It was a good one. I like that saying.

19:51Adam Kempenaar:It is an actual Polish saying.

19:53Josh Larsen:It is an actual Polish saying. A better version of play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Yes.

19:58Adam Kempenaar:Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time. I actually, I thought it was. I got that wrong. Listen to the Nick, Dick, and Paul show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

20:10Josh Larsen:A ambitious, well-intentioned, ferocious, and wealthy mother looks like in the black community. This Women's History Month, the podcast Keep It Positive, sweetie, celebrates the power of women choosing healing, purpose, and faith, even when life gets messy.

20:25Adam Kempenaar:Love, it's not a destination. You have to work on it every day.

20:28Josh Larsen:Keep It Positive, sweetie, creates space for honest conversations on self-worth, love, growth, and navigating life with grace and grit, led by women who uplift, inspire, and tell the truth out loud. I have several conversations with God, and I know why it took 20 years. To hear this and more, listen to Keep It Positive, sweetie, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, Chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math & Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. Math & Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing.

21:09Josh Larsen:I'm talking to leaders from the entertainment industry to finance and everywhere in between. This season of Math & Magic, I'm talking to CEO of Liquid Death, Mike Cesario, financier and public health advocate, Mike Milken. Take-Two Interactive CEO Strauss Zelnick. If you're unable to take meaningful creative risk and therefore run the risk of making horrible creative mistakes, then you can't play in this business. Sesame Street CEO Sherry Weston and her own chief business officer Lisa Coffey. Making consumers see the value of the human voice and to have that guaranteed human promise behind it really makes it rise to the top.

21:47Josh Larsen:Listen to Math & Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

21:55Adam Kempenaar:Well, I have a lot, I think, to say about the potential allegorical elements here. And you're right. It starts with the Genesis conversation, and you cannot deny the bookend. And that was something I saw upon original viewing, the tree of life or the tree of knowledge and that choice at the very end. and what we're supposed to make of that. Now, watching it again and knowing that, having that in the back of my mind, watching the film, you're able to pick up on so many more things that first viewing in a theater, right? Where you're just trying to follow the narrative and hopefully you're picking up on some insights and you have some things to say that are intelligent during the review that you're going to have here on the show.

22:42Adam Kempenaar:You're not going to catch everything and I maybe even didn't catch everything this time Josh I'm not gonna purport that but I will say I caught a lot more than I did that first time and this movie I think is in the screenplay by Jonathan Raymond and they've collaborated on other projects it it is littered with these allegorical elements that that raise the raise this movie from from just being on the level of the road movie level, which it absolutely functions on, right? But it takes it to another plane. And so you can just start, of course, by looking at, even though it would be appropriate for the era or for the time in which it's set, just look at some of the character names, right?

23:25Adam Kempenaar:Shirley Henderson's character is named Glory. The fact that he's named Meek, which is something he, of course, seems to be battling against the entire time, the way he characterizes himself and tries to behave. It's as if he, he's trying to show the world that that's not who he is. Solomon, Emily, Michelle Williams character, Will Patton is, is named Solomon. Emily. I don't know if there's any biblical connection to Emily. I don't, I don't immediately connect it to the Bible, but even the fact that her last name, and I could be stretching here, Josh, but I do love that her name is Tethero. This idea of being tethered, which is of course what I immediately think of.

24:06Adam Kempenaar:And the way we'll get into this more, but the way she initially, anyway, is tethered to the wagon and the camera is tethered to her that's tethered to the wagon. And that, that there seems to be a place for her and the women, at least early on, right in this environment. But let's get back to the Bible and, and let's, let's go back as well to Meek just for a second within this deconstruction of capitalism. And you mentioned the mastermind, you know, from the moment you meet Meek, at least on this second viewing, that he is a James Blaine Mooney level con. Okay. And if he's not that, and this is what I do like about the Bruce Greenwood performance and what I really like about the screenplay and the direction, is there's ambiguity here too, because he is that con or he's just plain crazy or as Emily asks, right?

25:01Adam Kempenaar:And this gets back to the Bible part. Is he ignorant or is he just plain evil? Evil. So evil, evil takes us to another realm, doesn't it? It takes us to another sort of spiritual realm. And the way they talk about choices, the way they talk about him as a character, it, it does place meek within the realm of being a god-like figure. And they are, throughout the film, debating whether or not they are going to choose to, I think, expel themselves from his control. And he is constantly trying to maintain his control over them. Think about when Paul Dano, at one point, he plays Gately, and there's a brief bit where about halfway through where Meek takes off.

26:01Adam Kempenaar:And what does he say? He's abandoned us. That's his phrase. He's abandoned us, right? And when they talk about him early on, that first conversation, which I want to come back to as well, because I love, I love a lot about it. But that first conversation we see between Michelle Williams and Will Patton, the husband and wife at night, that gives us a lot of background information as well. they're talking about what to do this dilemma with meek and and he says i think he's talking about maybe gately one of the other characters but the way they describe their choice to just keep the status quo with meek is they say we're at the man's mercy now it's like they're at at the mercy of God.

26:47Adam Kempenaar:Like, like, like we have to just give in to his will because that's the choice that we've made at that point. That's how they feel. How about, how about the phrasing Josh? They, they feel like they're this, this confuses it a little bit, but this whole notion of wandering, you know, whether or not we should have wandered from the main path and now we're off on this other path, even though they're following him. That messes with the analogy, but it also messes with these characters and their sense of who they should be following and what they should be doing and what choices they should be making, right?

27:28Adam Kempenaar:And then the big thing for me, the biggest thing for me that really solidified this allegorical element this time and made it really potent this time and put me in the place of these characters and this difficult choice, these difficult choices they were making, is the way Meek maintains his control is the way, sadly, historically, some religions have maintained their control. His cudgel is fear. His cudgel is, there's a lot of Indians out there, and they're really scary. And that's why we had to get off on this. It's not just a shortcut. We took this path because we're getting away from the scary Indians.

28:12Adam Kempenaar:And when they do see one, think about how he spins the tale. He talks about how, oh, you're lucky to be alive, Miss Tetherow. I'm surprised she lived to tell the tale. He just really, really gets into it when they come on a woman. He talks about enslavement and all these things right so he is this he's this figure who uses fear to try to to try to lord his to to have control over them and then he even at one point josh if if it's not explicit enough for you he says the land we're headed for is a second eden it's as if he's prom he's promising them paradise, right?

28:54Josh Larsen:So it's all there. Let me jump in here because I love this and it had not occurred to me, but you've got my brain whirling now. Definitely think that's a valid reading or is Meek the serpent in the garden as you're talking? Is he the great deceiver? Is he the one? And that's the line that you just quoted as the one which made me think of it is, you know, he's promising something better, not what is already had. Now this reading, this reading contradicts what I think we've identified as a larger Reichard project, which would not affirm the Oregon trail at all. Right. That sort of, that sort of like overtaking of, uh, the land for, for greed, for capitalism is not something her films would necessarily endorse, but you could read this as the trail, the main trail being the right way, the way, the way to walk in the light, the way to stay in Eden.

30:00Josh Larsen:He's led them astray by promises of the gold. And doesn't he say at one point you're headed to a land of milk and honey? So he's - Yeah. The second Eden's the only line I remember, but you're right. Yeah. I think he says land of milk and honey at one point. So he's using biblical language And he's, it relates to his tales to every story he tells. The only one who knows he's not lying is the kid. And that's why he rides next to the kid. Cause it's the only, at this point, it's the only audience he has left. Cause everyone else knows he's just full of it. And Josh, to your point, don't they come across?

30:33Adam Kempenaar:I mean, they come across along the way, the earthly riches of gold. They actually find it. Think about that. The allure of that, right? So they don't have basic sustenance to survive. Yeah. That's the irony. to them. But they do come across the gold on this path.

30:49Josh Larsen:And I think, you know, Rod Rondeau plays the Native American credited, um, you know, in the credits as the Indian, this figure they come across and end up kidnapping again. So they hope that they'll, he'll, he will be able to lead them to some water. And I'm thinking about this now, Adam, the way, as you describe Meek describing Native Americans in general is just like completely out of bounds, racist, xenophobic, like just making up the most horrible things you could as to your point to engender fear. Again, more lies. And I'm wondering, you know, if the choice at the end, I like that Meek steps away.

31:34Josh Larsen:If we're re if, if I'm reading him as this deceiver figure, because, you know, Satan in the garden stepped away. It was like, it was more like, well, you know, there's this option that, you know, didn't, didn't, you know, if you read the text, doesn't like force it upon them or demand it or really beat them over the head with it. It's like, you know, and so I like how Meek at the point of decision at this new tree, which as we've described is not necessarily the tree of life or the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It's this ambiguous tree. Meek kind of steps back and says, you know, whatever I quoted before, something like this was written long before we got here.

32:11Josh Larsen:And maybe the choice is maybe going back to the trail is the right choice. Trying to at least making that effort. Whereas, you know, to follow the Native American, it's not putting negative implications on him, but it's the fact that he is this kidnapped, kidnapped, abused figure to follow him would be essentially choosing to continue. exploitation, right? Yes. If they followed him, they're still exploiting him. And so if you're looking at this in some sort of parable terms, um, maybe the quote unquote right answer would be to try to get back on the right path. So I don't know. I think that's absolutely true.

32:50Josh Larsen:No, no, we're not.

32:51Adam Kempenaar:This is, uh, this is at the core of the film. I mean, I, I think hopefully if there's any takeaway, this is absolutely embedded into the fabric of this film, the fabric of this film also being the screenplay. And obviously, I think it makes sense. And it's not a surprise that your reframing of what I was saying is much more spiritually sound. They are looking to him. They hope. They are putting their faith in him, at least early on, at the start of this journey, which we don't really see. That's the whole point. We're coming into this journey. That's one of the things I love about this film. We're coming into it at the point where there's already a fracture in their faith.

33:30Adam Kempenaar:The crisis has already begun. They started the journey with full faith. So they started it believing in him as this godlike figure who's going to take them to the promised land on this path. He either always was, you know, the deceiver or he becomes it, but that's what he does turn into and he's led them astray. So he's using the guise of the godlike figure, and that's why they are so confused and they are questioning everything. There is uncertainty. And Josh, what is a better allegory for life than uncertainty, right? Questioning our place in this world and having to make these difficult choices.

34:11Adam Kempenaar:That's what this film, in addition to all these other things we're talking about, and also just working as a quote unquote road movie. That's what this movie is really fundamentally dealing with. Now, we talk about what also makes it really interesting formally. Oh, I love the fact, right, that we don't hear. We actually don't hear Meek until about 10 minutes into the movie. We've seen him when he has that like Lebowski like emergence from the tent, you know, with the beard and he's kind of bedraggled and everything like he had a rough night. He's like from a Wild West show. That's right. But we don't we don't hear him until 10 minutes in.

34:53Adam Kempenaar:And and that's notable because we hear him first from Williams's point of view. And that sets that sets the table. Well, that's really the first time we've seen her or it's established her point of view as a character 10 minutes in. And that's then going to establish that that conceit for the rest of the movie. How often it's going to rely on her point of view primarily, but the women usually at the back. Think about how often distance at a distance, how often we're put in that position. And we hear we have to overhear what the men are saying, what they're delivering about and how often we actually hear characters.

35:33Adam Kempenaar:verbalize, especially Shirley Henderson's glory, what are they talking about? Right. What are they saying? She has to say this two, three, four times in this movie, you know, and it does make you think about on a on a meta level, if you do step outside the film for a second, who is excluded from Westerns, but who is also excluded from the American story? You know, you you spoke to this earlier. You you could and should say that the answer starts along gender lines when discussing this movie because we are talking about the women at the back trying to hear, trying to get a sense of what's happening.

36:08Adam Kempenaar:But it doesn't have to be limited to just women. Glory at one point slights African-Americans in a very noticeable way, in a very notable way. But later with the introduction of the Native American character, that's where it really comes to the fore, that we understand that it is fundamentally about or what this movie is dealing with is is anybody who's been exploited or disenfranchised has been left out of this story and the the camera the camera mirrors that for us formally right by leaving people out of the narrative they're not in on the the information they don't know what's going on the the camera is always at the back and and there is something there's something then too that speaks to that idea of faith right they already these women have already had to put their faith in Meek, right, on this journey in the larger sense.

37:00Adam Kempenaar:Now they have to also put their faith in the men who were up ahead making all the decisions. And they have to hope that they're going to make the right decisions. And then, of course, at the end, when we see the tree, the point of view finally changes. It's the Indian. And I really do love just watching the performance of Rod Rondeau. He's leading now, finally. Emily's in front. It's her point of view looking ahead, you know, looking ahead at the tree, not at men, not at the men looking ahead at the tree, right, in front of her. One man's sick in the wagon. Others aren't even in the shot. When we hear Solomon say, whoa, he's the first one who seems to notice the tree, but we don't see him.

37:45Adam Kempenaar:We only hear him. Emily hears him and stops. Again, Reichert has us hear the man through Emily's ears, but not show us the man. But what matters is that she's in front now. She's leading as everyone else enters the shot. It's remarkable.

38:04Josh Larsen:And it's such a skillful progression to get to that point, right? This could come out guns blazing from the beginning as a feminist Western, right? Where, where, you know, Michelle Williams, Emily is immediately throwing her weight around, taking charges as someone we root for against them. You know, it's, it's very attentive to the reality of the situation and the ways you described by the camera placement and the having to overhear these conversations. And then this slow progression towards where she does become one of the leaders. What I love within this context is how it makes room for this very equitable within this time period marriage between Emily and Solomon, where he comes back to the tent at night and reports to her in full detail, the men's conversation, because he genuinely needs her counsel.

38:59Josh Larsen:He recognizes her wisdom and they don't always agree. They have their own opinions, but they go back and forth on this and that the film takes time for that relationship. It's a very special depiction of marriage in this movie, which is interesting that they find space to offer that as well. And at the same time, it's true to the work that the women are doing and contributing. I kept thinking about in the mastermind that long comic, if you enjoyed it, sequence of O 'Connor's character trying to get The paintings up in the, up in the hayloft. Right. And we're watching him and that's a process sequence right now.

39:42Josh Larsen:They're kind of for comic effect, but we get a lot of process sequences here of, you know, the women mending something or preparing a meal. And it's attentive to all of their contributions to this project. And in that way, it's, I suppose, feminist compared to the more traditional Western story depiction you would get here. And, and speaking of, you know, other differences just in the form of this movie, you could consider this slow cinema in a way, um, just the time it gives to characters passing across the screen to some of these processes I described. A lot of wagons creaking. the creek. How about the sound design here?

40:27Josh Larsen:You have creaking wagons, crunching feet. And if there is shrubbery around, which is rare, like the wind rustling through it. And I think that's about it unless someone's talking. And that just creates this not only quote unquote realistic, but almost a hypnotic, like in the, in the sense of slow cinema, hypnotic experience. That's what I first responded to about this is like, I am in a historical world that also feels completely new and fresh as an experience, as a cinematic experience. Now, mileage is going to vary. People famously find this movie boring, and I guess you could see that, but I don't think it's just to be slow or to have this pace.

41:12Josh Larsen:I think it's related to the fact, some of these themes we've been talking about. This is a land that is refusing to be conquered. So it's pushing back against that manifest destiny, that exceptionalism. And so the movie in turn is not going to be as anthropocentric as you might expect a Western to be. It's attentive to these characters and their needs, but it's always against the stark reality of this landscape. And the only way to really feel that is for the camera to give it the space and the time which is what puts it in the in the slow cinema sort of um area which is one of the things i treasure about it i absolutely agree

41:56Adam Kempenaar:there has to be an immersive quality to it i went and sat on the little ottoman in front of him

42:04Josh Larsen:I was, hi, dad. And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen and she says, I have some cookies and milk. This is badass convict. Right. Just finished five years. I'm going to have cookies and milk at mom. Yeah. On the Senior Show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption. on a recent episode I sit down with actor cultural icon Danny Trail to talk about addiction transformation and the power of second chances the entire season 2 is now available to binge featuring powerful conversations with guests like Tiffany Addish Johnny Knoxville and more I'm an alcoholic and without this trouble I'm gonna die open your free iHeartRadio app search the Cito Show and listen now

43:00Adam Kempenaar:A ambitious, well-intentioned, ferocious, and wealthy mother looks like in the Black community.

43:06Josh Larsen:This Women's History Month, the podcast Keep It Positive, Sweetie, celebrates the power of women choosing healing, purpose, and faith, even when life gets messy.

43:15Adam Kempenaar:Love, it's not a destination. You have to work on it every day.

43:18Josh Larsen:Keep It Positive, Sweetie creates space for honest conversations on self-worth, love, growth, and navigating life with grace and grit, led by women who uplift, inspire, and tell the truth out loud.

43:30Adam Kempenaar:I have several conversations with God, and I know why it took 20 years.

43:36Josh Larsen:To hear this and more, listen to Keep It Positive, Sweetie, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

43:44Adam Kempenaar:When you listen to podcasts about AI and tech and the future of humanity, the hosts always act like they know what they're talking about, and they are experts at everything. Here at the Nick, Dick, and Pohl Show, we're not afraid to make mistakes. What Coogler did that I think was so unique Who's he? He's the writer-director

44:02Josh Larsen:Who do you think he is? I don't know You mean, like, the president? You think Canada has a president You think China has a president Les La Cruzette God, I love that thing I use it all the time I wrap it in a blanket and sing to it It's like the old Polish saying Not my monkeys, not my circus It was a good one I like that saying.

44:26Adam Kempenaar:It is an actual Polish saying. Yeah. It is an actual Polish saying.

44:29Josh Larsen:Better version of play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Yes.

44:33Adam Kempenaar:Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time. I actually, I thought it was.

44:37Josh Larsen:I got that wrong.

44:38Adam Kempenaar:Listen to the Nick, Dick, and Paul show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

44:45Josh Larsen:Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math & Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. Math & Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing. I'm talking to leaders from the entertainment industry to finance and everywhere in between. This season on Math & Magic, I'm talking to CEO of Liquid Death, Mike Cesario, financier and public health advocate, Mike Milken, Take-Two Interactive CEO, Strauss Zelnick. If you're unable to take meaningful creative risk and therefore run the risk of making horrible creative mistakes, then you can't play in this business.

45:24Josh Larsen:Sesame Street CEO Sherry Weston and her own chief business officer, Lisa Coffey. Making consumers see the value of the human voice and to have that guaranteed human promise behind it really makes it rise to the top. Listen to Math & Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

45:46Adam Kempenaar:It does seem unfortunate to phrase it this way, but they're having a very negative experience. And not that we as viewers are having a very negative experience. I certainly haven't had a negative experience both times I've watched it. But there has to be a little bit of quote-unquote unpleasantness. It can't be a rollicking good time. We have to understand that this is slow going, you know, this is a bit punishing. That's okay. It doesn't feel punishing though as a viewer to me. And I like what you said a lot. I mentioned the conversation. I wanted to talk about this, that first conversation between husband and wife, because I think it's so revealing.

46:25Adam Kempenaar:And one of the things that reveals is that they're having a conversation that very clearly the other husbands and wives, the other couples are not having. And that's why the dynamic and the relationships that they have are very different. And the women are very different. And the men are very different. Like the only two really sensible people are the two people who actually talk to each other and trust each other and confide in each other. Right. It's true. And what's great about that conversation is that it does bring us up to speed, right? It does fill in whatever little bit of exposition, you know, it gives us some details that we need.

47:03Adam Kempenaar:Okay. But it really establishes the stakes right from the beginning. You know, we understand. And I mentioned that we know from some early shots that they are lost. We're thrown into the crisis. We're not starting when the journey is good. The journey is already terrible. That's when we're put in this. But now they're to that point, Josh, this is how bad it is. They're not only lost, they're considering 15 minutes into the movie hanging their guide. OK, that's that's what we're thrown into. They're talking about whether or not they should hang him. And so that's what the screenwriter here, Jonathan Raymond, and what Reichardt are up to.

47:42Adam Kempenaar:And I just think it's pretty brilliant. So it establishes those stakes and how dire the circumstances are. But it is also all about character. Because of the way they talk to each other, the way they confide in each other, we understand what their relationship is like, what their marriage is like, how they're going to interact with each other. It's character building. We understand it, that dynamic for the rest of the film. And not only that, we understand something about what the other men are like. He, he has some lines where he says things like Gately, you know, he's, he's eager to hang a man as long as that man isn't, isn't next to him, you know, or a line like that, you know, which, which tells us that he's the kind of guy who will talk big until, of course, you know, that guy's near him.

48:26Adam Kempenaar:We understand guys like that. We've all met guys like that. But we also get an eye into Emily's mind, who up to this point, we've only seen her at the back. And we're looking at her a lot, and we see what she's looking at, but we don't always know what she's thinking. And this is our chance to finally understand what she's thinking. So that conversation just functions on so many levels. And I mentioned the patriarchy earlier. And obviously, there's a lot of subversion of that here. But some of the little touches that that Reichert and Raymond sneak in here, Josh, that I love that I certainly didn't catch the first time I saw it.

49:04Adam Kempenaar:There is a conversation early on where Dano and his wife in this film is played by Zoe Kazan. There's a conversation fairly early on where they're sitting around a campfire and Nick is telling his tales and he's he's talking about the journey at this point. And Dano's asking questions. And then Kazan's character asks a question. And if you watch it, when she asks the question, you can see Dano turn his head and look at her. And the look he gives her is like, what do you think you're doing? Like, why are you? I'm the one who's talking here. Right. This isn't your place, woman, to talk right now.

49:45Adam Kempenaar:And and it's it's very clear in that moment. And later, later, when we see that Emily, who's pretty emboldened the entire film, but when she's really emboldened later and she's she's letting she's letting Meek know how how she feels about him. Um, she going back to the Bible, she uses one of the seven sins against him. Um, she uses the word vanity. She suggests that he is, that he is too vain. Right.

50:13Josh Larsen:And when he's that when the three women are mending and he comes up and yeah, it's such a great scene.

50:18Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Well, we learn that I don't, I can't remember if we see it earlier or not, or just see it at the end, but Dano's there and Dano's listening and, and Riker cuts to him right after she says that to him, that it's vanity. And so this is a pretty heavy charge, right? At this time, and that she's saying it to him, to me, to a man. It cuts to Dano. And the look on Dano's face isn't the same look as before when it was his wife, but it is a look of disbelief. It's not anger, but it's like, I can't believe that woman is saying that to him, right? And so the other point you made I like about how it not it not feeling it being progressive, I suppose, without feeling anachronistic and not going too far in that realm.

51:05Adam Kempenaar:There is a moment where we get, I suppose, you know, a semi standoff like you would expect in a Western, maybe even a Sergio Leone Western, right, where two guns are out, there's a triangle and people are pointing at each other. And and and I could be wrong. But Josh, what I loved about this moment, the way Williams plays it. What I noticed anyway on my screen is that Williams is in control. She's got the rifle, you know, and it's a tense moment and you don't exactly know how it's going to play out. And of course she is being very tough and, and dominating that scene. And she, she wins, I suppose you could say, but when she puts that gun down, she's trembling.

51:44Adam Kempenaar:Oh yeah. She's trembling. So as she should be, right. Because she's human. It's not, it's not about asserting, you know, or over asserting the dominant woman. It's, it's about, it's about the humanity in the realism of that moment. Yeah.

51:58Josh Larsen:I love, um, Will Patton as her husband, Solomon. And I wish I could remember the exact words, but when they, the standoff goes down and someone says, it might've been meek says somebody, you got some woman there. And then she's something, she's some kind of something or something like that. Yeah. He's just, it's kind of this wonderful. What I love about my reading of that is like, he doesn't feel the need to back her up or undercut her. Yeah. She's who she is.

52:26Adam Kempenaar:Right. Exactly.

52:28Josh Larsen:He's like, this is, I I'm not in charge. I'm not going to tell her what to do or what not to do. He's not challenged. His masculinity isn't challenged. Exactly. So yeah, I just, I just love this. Love them as a couple. Um, I do want to just, you know, cause I don't think his name has come up, but cinematographer Christopher Blovelt. Oh, yeah.

52:46Adam Kempenaar:I mean, yeah.

52:46Josh Larsen:who Reichard has worked with, um, ever since I believe ever since. And, um, I learned something aside. She and below that we're on the team Deacons podcast a couple of months ago. And she talked about, um, him coming onto this project and kind of to her mind, almost saving it because up to that point in her career, she had had difficulty establishing authority on film sets, I think is kind of how she described it. And she put this along gender roles, and said that there was something about Blovelt who the presence he brought, this collaborative, respectful presence he brought as cinematographer was just a game changer for her.

53:26Josh Larsen:And clearly, you know, has been something that she's wanted to continue through the rest of her career. So there's that bit of background, which I just think is interesting. But also look at the text, the photographic eye he brings. I mean, um, this, there are some shots here of, um, the covered wagons where at sunset, where it's almost like they're glowing from the inside. And, um, I was thinking of, I was thinking a lot of like Andrew Wyeth paintings, which have these stark hills and fields, but also have like something of a, of a glow to them. I don't know if that was an influence at all. Um, the Academy aspect ratio ratio they've chosen to use here, I think is very effective in terms of connecting it to the mythology of some of those silent Westerns and travelogues.

54:18Josh Larsen:I was talking about is like putting this movie, not just old timey because it's a period movie, but really putting it within cinematic tradition of these sorts of stories. I think there's a, there's a visual choice for the Academy aspect ratio, but there's also a thematic choice almost a meta reasoning behind it as well that I think is very effective. Yeah.

54:41Adam Kempenaar:And I've, I've talked to her. I'm pretty sure about this choice before her and, and Blovelt. And I think it's all the things you just mentioned. And it's also just fundamentally about not turning these movies, which are already set in these wonderful Pacific Northwest locations. And the, the locations themselves are beautiful enough. You don't need to gild the lily and beyond that. You don't need to make them. They're not about the magnificence of the West for all the reasons we've talked about. It's not about the magnificence of manifest destiny. It's about the people. It's about the faces. It's about us trying to figure out what's going on in the head of Michelle Williams character while she's at the back looking at the men up ahead and trying to figure out what they're saying and where they're going to lead them next.

55:31Adam Kempenaar:and that academy ratio, which they've used on other films too. It's not about the widescreen expanse of the landscape. It's about keeping that face in the frame first and foremost, right? That's what we're paying attention to. It's about character more than it is about landscape. And yeah, those two as a tandem have obviously given us some incredible work. And in terms of shots that do allow them to, I suppose, get a little bit more creative, that's not the right term to use. But their approach is one that doesn't draw a lot of attention to itself. It's exactly what it needs to be for this film.

56:14Adam Kempenaar:And the shots that actually speak to me more than anything are some of the ones you mentioned. They're how the wagon looks. It's the, that conversation at night and, and how we just see the little bit of the flicker of light, you know, from a, from a lantern or whatever that, that has them in that glow. Some of those shots, it's about those shots, not the landscapes, the wide shots of the landscape, as I mentioned that, that stand out about this movie. But at the end, at the end, that point of view shot through that little hole in the branches in the tree, right, looking at looking at at the Indian as he as he walks away, just bringing here again, sort of full circle this this notion of of point of view and and her looking through the tree, looking at him and that connection that they're making.

57:03Adam Kempenaar:And this idea, I think, as I read it, that she is willing, that they are going to follow him, that they are putting their faith now in this new guide. And I want to see that at the end as if they are – that even Meek is saying, I recognize that I've been bested, that even as the deceiver, I can't deceive any longer. And I want to go back to one other point about him. How great is it? Like a great snake slithering, Josh, exactly what that deceiver would do. when Emily and Solomon are in the tent pretty late in the film. And it's another one of those intense moments where she is really letting her feelings known about Meek to her husband and questioning him and saying some harsh things about him.

57:59Adam Kempenaar:They then hear her rustling outside. And Solomon says something like, Will, or says a name to someone, You're thinking it's one of the guys and there's no answer. And it's almost certainly him, you know, eavesdropping. And one of the things that confirms that is that what happens the next morning and even all throughout the next day, all of a sudden, Meek is not hanging out by himself. He's not hanging out with the other men. He's now positioning himself with all the women. This is when he starts talking to Miss Tetherill. This is when he starts talking to all the women and, and trying to get in good with them.

58:38Adam Kempenaar:Right. He knows, he knows that they don't like him and he knows that he needs to do something to try to, to try to seduce them a little bit to, to change their mind about him. You know, it's, it's perfect.

58:50Josh Larsen:Yeah. Yeah. It's a, you know, it's a performance that has to be handled delicately because he could come off as cartoonish. But I think if you see that that bravado, that performance is part of this man's actual constitution, this is how he lives, then it makes perfect sense along with the rest of the film.

59:10Adam Kempenaar:Meek's Cutoff is currently streaming on Peacock and Mubi and available VOD. More about the FilmSpotting Pantheon and our little Pantheon project is available at filmspotting.net slash Pantheon. I'd have to consult our schedule. I don't have it in front of me right at this moment. But within the next two to three weeks, we will be inducting one of these nine films, two of these nine films, I should say, into the Film Spotting Pantheon. More details about all of that coming soon. And again, available at filmspotting.net slash Pantheon. Coming on Friday's show, reminder, Project Hail Mary and 40s Madness Round One results and Round Two matchups.

59:48Josh Larsen:Film Spotting is independently produced and listener supported. That means you can support the show by joining the Film Spotting family at filmspottingfamily.com. That way you can listen early and ad-free. You will get monthly bonus episodes as well, a weekly newsletter, and access to the entire show archive. Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe DeSoe and Sam Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. And special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson.

1:00:26Josh Larsen:And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

1:00:29Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

1:00:40Josh Larsen:This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. After the big game, like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials, and there was one that stayed with me.

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