Ridley Scott Draft with Roxana Hadadi and Filipiñana | #1079

18:49Adam Kempenaar:That may be the best argument for it, Roxanna. Like a lot of those ideas. Yeah. Like come from Dick and come from the things that he understood about how like capitalism will shape everything about how we live and especially how we live in the world as it is designed, which I think is exactly what you were talking about, Josh, about like the corporate shadow in this film. But I do think that for me, it just has done more in terms of like how we imagine the future, I think, than like any other sci-fi film has done. And I also think, for me, what this core question of like, what is a human being?

19:38And why are we so certain of our value over other types of life? I think that that is something that Ridley is obviously really fascinated by, at least to me, I think, in his sci-fi work. and I think that it's sort of this idea that he's chasing like how do we prove humanity and how do we make it worthwhile and worth defending and maybe it's not worth defending which I think is what Blade Runner is sort of making this argument for but yeah it would have been my number one I think it's a wonderful number two I think for me like the power of Blade Runner is when you watch something like Blade Runner 2049, which like I enjoyed like in the moment.

20:25I thought that parts of it were great. Ryan Gosling, you know, will be my husband one day. But like when I'm thinking about it and then the film's over, I'm not still thinking about it. And Blade Runner, I feel like I'm always thinking about a little bit. So I'm happy that it's very high up here.

20:44Adam Kempenaar:okay well said Roxanna let's get then what would be your second pick but is your first pick in this round I mean I think that you guys knew that I was going to do this when you asked me had a feeling to think I know where you're going yeah I I am gonna go with kingdom of heaven director's director's Cut. Director's cut. Asterisk. Yeah. Noted. Yeah. How to even begin talking about this movie? I've written about this movie a lot. I think the thing that I would say and the passionate defense that I would make of this movie is admittedly like very personal. Like it is a very personal thing being a Muslim American growing up through 9-11 and seeing how the culture changed and seeing still now, 25 years later, how it is still, I think, very difficult to be a Muslim person in this country.

21:49All of that is to say, I think that Kingdom of Heaven is maybe the largest scale, most ambitious film I've seen made from the West that dares to be like, maybe Muslims are also people. And I just think that it was like remarkable to do that in 2005, like shocking to do that so soon amid the beginning of the forever wars and sort of just how much like the US and the UK and Europe changed to become. Honestly, these surveillance states that Ridley was sort of aware of in the 80s sort of thinking would be where we would turn. And so to like amid that, to make this film that has such a, I mean, honestly, for me, like a beautiful rendering of like the Muslim forces during the Crusades and to give you a character like Saladin and to have Alexander Siddig here as sort of like this wise old mentor, like to do all of these things, I think was just really phenomenal.

23:05And I think the director's cut gives you even more of that and more of Ava Green and sort of more of an understanding of this time and this place. And that maybe there could be some sort of like cross-cultural understanding. And if we could have it then, and if we could recognize within this film that like white Christians that are like sort of the bad guys, again, a bold idea for 2005. I just think it feels to me like the wildest swing Ridley would make in his career in a good way because he makes a lot of other questionable swings. but I think this is the one where I sort of felt like oh there is something that Ridley is working through about what's happening to our world and he's putting it into this movie and I just I really love and admire all of that a new world a better world than has ever been seen there You are not what you were born, but what you have it in yourself to be.

24:18A kingdom of conscience. Peace instead of war. Love instead of hate. That is what lies the end of Crusade.

24:33I am talking to a felon right now with face tattoos, and I cannot decide if I like him or not. That was a caller from my podcast, Therapy Gecko, where I speak with anonymous callers about their problems, relationships, and anything else in the depths of their mind. It all happens on my show, Therapy Gecko, where we have real conversations just like this. Sometimes I'll have my girlfriend pre-chew spicy food and kind of baby bird it into my mouth. Is that weird? This week is Human Connection Week. We're taking a peek into the lives of various strangers who found my phone number online. We'll hear their funny moments, their difficult ones, and their unexpectedly profound ones.

25:16These are real conversations with real people figuring out life one call at a time. So if you're trying to get out of your own head and into someone else's, this is the podcast for you. Listen to Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Brennan, and on my podcast, Hollywoodland, I revisit some of the biggest stories from Hollywood history, separating the myths people want to believe from the reality underneath them. Like how the story of Marilyn Monroe isn't just the story of a Hollywood icon. Marilyn Monroe has become so iconic that her death can only be explained through conspiracy theories.

25:58And for some fans who can't let go, these stories have metastasized from conjecture to accepted fact. So on August 4th, 1962, Marilyn Monroe died. Then the rumors started and she died again. And now we're going to set the record straight and learn about the way Marilyn Monroe actually died. The third way. Learn more about what happens when fame, media obsession and conspiracy collide. Listen to Hollywoodland on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

26:57gotten interviews that change how we see these giants of our culture. Well, if changing the system from the ground up is revolutionary, then I'm revolutionary. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I mean, when I go on stage, I like to dress as slutty as possible because it makes me dance better for some reason. I'm Emmanuel Jochi. I'm Kai Wright. And this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get podcasts.

27:28Josh Larsen:Dear honeys, this is goodbye. In February of 2024, celebrated illustrator and children's book author Petra Mathers and her husband Michael mailed letters to dozens of friends and family members to let them know that they had died by suicide. By the time you get this letter, both Petra and I will be dead. Next stop, Wonderland.

27:48Adam Kempenaar:Petra and Michael were by all accounts healthy, happy, and in love. Why did they do it? And what did it do to the people they left behind? I would have given a million reasons to not leave this world had I known. I keep coming back to, I truly hope that Petra was a thousand percent on board with the plan. Do you think of him as having killed her? Yes, I do. I hold Michael responsible for my mother's death. I'm Leon Nafok. And I'm Alice Gregory. Together, we set out to interview everyone who got one of Petra and Michael's letters. as one married couple trying to understand another. Listen to Death of an Artist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

28:34Adam Kempenaar:You wrote about it, it looks like, in 2021 for the AV Club. Ava Green rules the much longer, much better director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven, so that would have been for its 15th anniversary. Does that all sound correct? That sounds correct, yes. Okay. So I, and we've mentioned this a few times on the show, I have been needing to watch this, rewatch the movie, but watch the director's cut since 2006 when it came out on DVD. It was May 2006, basically a year after its theatrical release that the director's cut came out on DVD. And listeners have been saying for 20 years, kingdom of heaven, the director's cut.

29:22Adam Kempenaar:It's so good. You got to watch it. You got to give it another chance. Because in 2005, when Sam and I reviewed it, we were kind of mixed on it. And unfortunately, I haven't gone back. I don't go back into the archive that deep and listen to my review. Certainly not from that far back. And I can't find my notes from that time. It was too far back for me to find. There was no Google Doc then. I don't know what I said about it. I assume or I feel like it was just a general lack of coherency. I vaguely feel like it just felt rushed and some of the storylines just didn't all come together in a satisfying way.

30:02Adam Kempenaar:So that when I remember hearing, oh, there's going to be a director's cut, I thought, oh, that makes sense. When people started saying it's a much better version, I thought, okay, well, yeah, with more of the story there, it might be a much better film. So you talked about it a little bit, but what would you say is the real advantage of the director's cut? What makes that really work over the theatrical version? And did you like the theatrical version? I think I liked the theatrical version because you're still spending time primarily with the Muslim characters and you're getting to see sort of how like the ladin is navigating sort of like the extremist forces on his side and also with not wanting to sort of bend to the extremist forces on the other side.

30:54So I still liked the theatrical version. I was still kingdom of heaven pilled. But the director's cut adds in so much more. I would say really the benefit here is for Ava Green because there is so much more of her performance and so much more here with her son and with her brother, who is obviously played by Edward Norton. And so you're getting a greater sense of like, what are the pressures for her as a woman at this time, realizing that her brother is dying, that her terrible husband is going to try to do something with their son and like ready him for war as well. Like I think you get a lot more of her interiority.

31:41So her romance with Orlando Bloom's character does not feel as abrupt. I don't think I think you're getting a stronger sense of to go back to what you were talking about Adam like her solitude and her loneliness how that is shaping her reality. And I do think that she, in the director's cut form, is up there with some of Ridley's best female characters in terms of someone who feels to me very real and very fleshed out. And I mean like flesh also physically. She feels physically real in the director's cut in terms of like just something as simple as like getting on and off her horse. Like, there is a lot of, like, tactile beauty in the performance that I think is restored with the director's cut.

32:30I was watching you today. You've been given a patch of dirt, and it seems you will build a new Jerusalem here. It is my land.

32:43Who would I be if I did not try to make it better? So, yeah, if you're wondering, like, hmm, how much Ava Green is in this? In the director's cut, it's a lot more.

32:51Adam Kempenaar:Well, I buried the lead there. I did rewatch the film or I watched the director's cut and everything you're saying does check out. I can't compare it directly against the director's or the theatrical version from 20 years ago. I don't remember it that vividly. But I do sense that having watched this version and how Ava Green's character is handled. And it does feel at least like a different experience from my mixed reaction 20 years ago. It is now a very good Ridley Scott film. And I will say, yes, film spotting listeners were right.

33:30Josh Larsen:Kingdom of Heaven, it's one of those two out of four star reviews for me. So I think I must have had a similar reaction to you, Adam, and maybe watching the director's cut would put me a little bit more on the positive side of the fence. But I think, you know, as you're talking about it, Roxanna, this element of multiculturalism, yeah, low bar to reach that, right? But still, I think you're right, a wild swing in 2005 to attempt that. And I imagine even more so now. I mean, think about trying to get this movie made right now. I didn't. And you can't imagine that.

34:05Adam Kempenaar:No, I did not expect this film. Did not remember that storyline at all or that narrative being the heart of the narrative. And if you put this movie out now, it would get more threats and charges of wokeness thrown against it and protests about it than the Odyssey. It would be four times the Odyssey. Yes, exactly. It would be absurd. And I think what those people would all miss is that like the closing moment of this film is spoilers. Yeah, spoilers, spoilers for history and religion. um like the final moment of this film is a muslim character picking up a cross that has been like discarded on the ground and like setting it correctly because there is still this like shared respect for jerusalem and for the christian faith it is really the film more than anything is just a warning against extremism of any kind like that is the fear in this film is being swept away by that.

35:14And yes, I am sure that it would not get made today. The other thing that concerns me is that I don't think it would get made by Ridley today because Ridley had that horrible quote during Exodus, Gods and Kings, where he said he couldn't cast Muhammad so-and-so to lead that movie. So it just, it feels like a real, a real moment in time where Ridley and I were vibing on the same wavelength and I'm grateful for it.

35:42Adam Kempenaar:Okay. That means we are starting round two and you get another choice. Okay. It's not going to be Exodus, I'm assuming. Sounds like no. But please take it. What if it were? It'd be so great. Talk about a wild swing. Yeah, it would be like actually plot twist. No, it's going to be Thelma and Louise. Yeah. So close. I was so close. Yeah. It's going to be Thelma and Louise, which I rewatched last month for another pod. And I was just, look, like we're talking about how like the sci-fi Ridley stuff felt very prescient and obviously like set major trends. What was astonishing to me watching Thelma and Louise is just how much it feels like none of the America depicted in that movie has changed.

36:37The misogyny is still the same. Sort of these questions of like, when is a woman telling the truth? What does a woman want to do with her life? Leaning in, like all these things that we talk about, like in a very circular social fashion, societal fashion are there in that movie, anchored with just like a slew of phenomenal performances. Like I really can't get over what Geena Davis and Susan Strangon are doing in that movie, but also Harvey Keitel. And also, you know, like all these other people that round out this cast. And so I remember in watching that, I think I think when I watched it the first time, maybe I did not clock that like Ridley Scott was also the person who made Alien.

37:28Like, I think I was too young and I didn't quite, like, put it together. And now, with the benefit of being old, I do think that Thelma and Louise is such an interesting point in Ridley's journey with female characters. And I think that movie tells us a lot about how he wishes women were treated and like the dignity that he would like to give them and like the primacy that he would like to give them. and I just also think about like how that movie visually to go back to your point Josh like captures a version of the American West that I think again is like really definitive and really like planting a flag in the ground of like this is what America looks like in these corners of the West and corners of the desert that maybe a lot of you people have never been to but there's a reason that this land is like so sprawling and there's something really iconic about two women making their way out west and doing something that has been so synonymous with men in this country's history and doing it as women women who get more feral and like unfettered as the movie goes on um and who like move closer and closer together when they've like rejected men from their lives where are you going fresno we've been seeing you all over the place why don't you take off those shades i want to see your eyes yeah i've been seeing you too yeah we think you have really bad manners yeah where do you get off behaving like that with women you didn't even know

39:19how'd you feel if somebody did that to your mother or your sister or your wife again sort of like kingdom of heaven i just think this one is incredibly special very different i think when you first see it from the rest of ridley but then when you think about sort of like those auteur through lines that Adam brought up. I think it makes complete sense. Yeah.

39:46Josh Larsen:And the contemporary American West, which is distinct from classic Hollywood Westerns, right? And I'm glad you brought up that visual element because that was one question I had. This would have been my next pick, but largely on faith. It's been years since I've seen Thelma and Louise. I think it might've been a Next Picture Show episode where they discussed it recently somewhere. And, you know, that conversation made me confident that it did hold up. And it sounds like Roxanna, from your viewing, it absolutely does. But I was wondering about that in my memory. I think of it as, um, you know, a showcase for strong performances.

40:23Josh Larsen:Yeah. And, but that visual element, as you describe it of the, of the West, I think you're right. I think it's distinct and that is where he is very much playing to, to his strengths. So So yeah, I would have liked to have had that one, but not going to happen. So let's see. That leaves me with, I'm going to go with, I mean, it's more sci-fi, but in some ways different than Alien, in some ways similar.

40:52Adam Kempenaar:I think here I'm going to actually take The Martian as my next Ridley Scott film.

40:58Josh Larsen:And, you know, in terms of what his strengths are, I think this is evidence that taught and tactile sci-fi, like Alien, actually, is where he really shines. More so than, maybe I'm showing my hand here, but more so than deep think sci-fi. So, like, you know, Prometheus territory. Please, one of you, take Prometheus. Oh, hey, just give me a shot. Put me in, coach. don't put me in josh you're not gonna get the answer you want okay we we know who to leave that one for yeah i just think this is this is scott in that territory that alien played in where it was very much about what we could reach out into the screen and actually touch and making that feel like it's all around us and we can picture ourselves there that's what you get here um even when, speaking of Prometheus and Exodus even, there's a moment, I thought this was interesting in The Martian, where he teases us that religion is going to come into play in this movie, if you remember.

42:06Josh Larsen:There's this scene of Matt Damon's Watney. He's watching Happy Days, I think it is. And he's thoughtfully twirling this crucifix. And you're thinking, with some of Scott's other movies in mind, oh, are we about to get some like deep philosophizing, some statement on belief or hope. And then what he actually says is he breaks the silence and says, the problem is water. And I think that just encapsulates the Martian, right? Is that it's about the here, it's about the now, it's about the practicality, it's about the temporality. And how can we make that extremely vivid so we feel like we're trapped there, you bring in someone like Ridley Scott who can do that as well as anyone.

42:53Josh Larsen:And so I think it's, you know, maybe because it's so compact, I don't know what its reputation is. You know, I feel like other films of his come up more, but maybe because it's so compact that it doesn't have that more expansive, ambitious sensibility to it that people are looking for. But I really do think it's one of his best. So I'm going to take it here.

43:12Adam Kempenaar:I'm with you. It's definitely one I would have considered for my next pick if you hadn't taken it in fact i remember josh when we reviewed it my setup question to you was along these lines basically is it just too damn likable yeah it's a movie that that everybody i talked to enjoyed the hell out of it and i could recommend it to everybody and at least prometheus divided people a little bit it had such ambitions it provoked passionate responses on either side my question to you i think literally was does it aim high enough is it or is it too amiable and the practicality you talk about i do really like in some ways it makes me think about alien in the efficiency of alien you know that's yeah you know there's a practicality to to this film and to that character where i like how not only does it not get into religion, he's not even thinking about any people back at home.

44:09Adam Kempenaar:There isn't a family element and our attachment to him. Yes, we want to see him live, but more than anything, it's sort of like, can he achieve this? Can he simply pull off this incredible task and these series of tasks to get there that he has set out for himself in order to survive? And survival, again, seems to be one of these themes that that comes up a few times and that script that that drew goddard script is is really good because we we still we feel we feel everything we need to feel but it's also it's also just it's it's rye it's a it's a really rye script that i think damon delivers that that watney character the deadpan delivery of of of those lines he he really finds the right the right tone for it.

44:59I have created 126 square meters of soil, but every cubic meter of soil requires 40 liters of water to be farmable. So I got to make a lot more water. Good thing is I know the recipe. Ridley's best characters, his most entertaining characters are resourceful. And I I think like the Martian like streamlines that. That is like pure guy figuring out a problem. Like and I think Ridley really I don't think he's like Soderbergh in terms of being obsessed with process. But I think he's really interested in sort of like the decision making that can get you from point A to point B. And yeah, I feel like the Martian is beloved, Josh.

45:45Like I think people adore it. Yeah.

45:48Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Yeah, it's or at minimum think it's very good. Very fun. I don't I don't know if people think it's great. They're going to put it in their top 100 movies of all time.

45:58Josh Larsen:To your point, Adam, like it didn't rile anyone up. I don't think you'll find anyone who says it's terrible. I just I do wonder, like when you talk about Scott's best, is it is it kind of like, yeah, that was good. I really like that, you know, so not that it matters. I took it anyway. You did. It's my second pick. I am talking to a felon right now with face tattoos, and I cannot decide if I like him or not. That was a caller from my podcast, Therapy Gecko, where I speak with anonymous callers about their problems, relationships, and anything else in the depths of their mind. It all happens on my show, Therapy Gecko, where we have real conversations just like this.

46:39Sometimes I'll have my girlfriend pre-chew spicy food and kind of baby bird it into my mouth. Is that weird? This week is Human Connection Week. We're taking a peek into the lives of various strangers who found my phone number online. We'll hear their funny moments, their difficult ones, and their unexpectedly profound ones. These are real conversations with real people figuring out life one call at a time. So if you're trying to get out of your own head and into someone else's, this is the podcast for you. Listen to Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

47:17I'm Jake Brennan, and on my podcast, Hollywoodland, I revisit some of the biggest stories from Hollywood history, separating the myths people want to believe from the reality underneath them. Like how the story of Marilyn Monroe isn't just the story of a Hollywood icon. Marilyn Monroe has become so iconic that her death can only be explained through conspiracy theories. And for some fans who can't let go, these stories have metastasized from conjecture to accepted fact. So on August 4th, 1962, Marilyn Monroe died. Then the rumors started and she died again. And now we're going to set the record straight and learn about the way Marilyn Monroe actually died.

48:03the third way. Learn more about what happens when fame, media obsession, and conspiracy collide. Listen to Hollywoodland on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Big Lives, we take a single cultural icon. People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Richard Pryor. And we pull apart the story behind the image. And we do this by digging through the BBC's vast archive. We're talking iconic moments in broadcast history. I'm not just a boxer. I'm educated. I can talk all week on millions of subjects. And forgotten interviews that change how we see these giants of our culture.

48:44Well, if changing the system from the ground up is revolutionary, then I'm revolutionary. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I mean, when I go on stage, I like to dress as slutty as possible because it makes me dance better for some reason. I'm Emmanuel Jochi. I'm Kai Wright. And this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get podcasts.

49:11Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City. On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you. A hundred percent of women go through menopause. It can be such a struggle for our quality of life, but even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it? The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything. I never used to forget things. They're concerned that one, they have dementia, and the other one is, do I have ADHD?

49:50There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids to sleep better, to have less pain, to have better mood, and also to have better day-to-day life. Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Poyner on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now.

50:12Adam Kempenaar:That does, though, allow me to close out round two with a choice that maybe a lot of listeners thought would go above The Martian. And I'm very happy to take it here. I mean is Gladiator still on the board am I missing something has Russell Crowe not not been taken I I didn't I didn't prepare any notes here whatsoever I didn't think Gladiator would make it to pick six but I I do I do really like Gladiator Gladiator was a movie I loved in the theater I I was thinking I was thinking about this and whether or not I would get Gladiator and I'm like is gladiator it's like the new rio bravo in a way it's the modern western as far as dad movies but i loved it when i wasn't a dad but now it seems like the ultimate dad movie with a character that that general figure that crow plays who can just withstand any battle he's stronger he's more cunning.

51:16Adam Kempenaar:He has more courage than any other man and can just withstand any challenge that he seems to be facing. It's what every red-blooded American male aspires to be like. That's what we see in Russell Crowe's character in Gladiator. And speaking of Crowe, when I think of Gladiator, I actually don't really think of any of the big fight scenes. I think of just Crow. I think of Crow embodying that character and that face. I won't say emotion because it's how much he downplays it. It's the ruggedness. What do you say about how Crow plays that character? I'm sure some of you have seen it too. There's a TikTok or an Instagram that will pop up in my feed every now and again where Russell Crowe is talking about being directed by Ridley Scott in that movie.

52:16Adam Kempenaar:And with it, they'll show the scene from the movie. They'll intersplice it. And it's the scene where right before the battle at the beginning, the bird appears. It's like, you know, dawn or whatever. They're about to go fight. The men are assembling and he's having a quiet moment. And then he sees he spies a little bird some yards away and looks at it and has a little smile. And then he comes back to the moment ahead of him and focuses. Apparently Ridley Scott had this idea just before they shot it. And he came over to Ridley Scott or he came over to Russell Crowe and said, you know, so here's what's going to happen.

52:53Adam Kempenaar:Of course, there's no bird there. He says, but this is this is what's going to happen. You know, you're just before the battle. You're going to you're going to see this little bird and you're going to look at it and then you're just going to come back and then you're going to refocus. And and that was about it. Just gave him this little direction. Russell Crowe said, OK, and they shot it. Crowe nails it. Just what you see in the film is exactly exactly what it needs to be, but far better than you would imagine anyone doing it based on the little description that Ridley Scott says to him. It's just it's imbued with all of these notes.

53:30Adam Kempenaar:As a viewer, you can pick out like seven things that this character is suggesting to you. And he's barely doing anything as an actor in that scene, but he's but he's doing it. And and Ridley Scott says cut. And he says something like, oh, you and I are going to get along real well, mate. You know, it's like, and they did those that pair on that film, there was some synergy between them that clearly elevated that film into the, the beloved film that it is today. It resonates with people in a way that not every commercial blockbuster film from that period does. It has a legacy that I think goes beyond the material itself or, again, the action itself.

54:20Adam Kempenaar:I think it's something about what Scott was able to bring out of his leading man and what his leading man was able to give his director. My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the armies of the North, general of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius, father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife, and I will have my vengeance in this life or the next.

54:51Josh Larsen:Well, and it's held up too. I mean, you know, revisiting, this is one I have revisited recently before Gladiator 2. And I think I found it, I found more interesting layers. I liked it when it came out, but more interesting layers this time. I mean, politically in terms of the fall of Rome and what, you know, how it plays today is, you know, at once prescient and maddening. So yeah, would have been happy to have this. It was on my board for sure. it was my number six okay ad and i are aligned okay yeah i mean i think that everything about it is just like this is what movies are for like a big message like a sweeping spectacle yes i you know when i had cable and it was on tnt every other weekend i was watching it on tnt every other weekend it's just very satisfying incredibly satisfying and i think that um russell crow is so incredible in it as somebody that you i mean i was going to say like somebody you'd want to get a beer with which is a weird thing to say about like a general or you know but i do think that he has like a very earthy quality in this movie that is also very relatable and adds to the whole project of what gladiator is supposed to be and supposed to represent and all i will say about gladiator 2 is that it is not gladiator in any way shape or form that it is not it is not

56:23Adam Kempenaar:though though it does sound like based on that i'm higher on gladiator 2 than the both of you

56:29Josh Larsen:i must be a ridley scott apologist i mean go for it wouldn't it be nice to have a little symmetry you have the next pick right just just do glad just go ahead and take it and gladiator 2 wow That would look on a list.

56:40Adam Kempenaar:You're urging me and you think you're that little devil and it's not going to work. But Roxanna, before I take my next pick, because this is appropriate, I was going to mention to you that one of the philosophical aspects of this that you're probably not aware of is, and we wrestle with this sometimes, is that you have to wonder what the goal of these drafts. Right. What the goal is. is it to draft the films that you truly love the most or is it to win and by winning we mean earn the acclaim of the audience and your peers have them all nod in agreement and say yes that was the right choice you you clearly had the best draft and we also do pose a poll we put the poll up and say who won the draft now you don't get any prizes or anything but we really should have

57:35Josh Larsen:yourself on the back so give a little impetus here for so do you want to win or do you want

57:41Adam Kempenaar:to pick the movies you love or do you want to have some kind of hybrid of the two And that's what you have to ask yourself. Now, Josh likes to think that he only wants to pick the movies he loves and he doesn't care about winning. But the first time we ever did a draft, he picked Lady Bird, which is a movie he feels quite highly about. He likes it a lot, but he picked it entirely to ruin my night and my month and maybe my year. And I'm obviously still bitter about it. So it worked. Is it because you hate Lady Bird or because you loved Lady Bird and you wanted it for yourself?

58:24Josh Larsen:Correct.

58:24Adam Kempenaar:Yeah.

58:24Josh Larsen:Yes. So that speaks to the strategy involved, which you and I, Roxanna, have already blown. We should not have correctly pointed out Prometheus as a botched film because now he's going to sit on it. He's got it right there at number five. And there are people who love it. So if he wants to win the draft, he'll grab that. I'm very used to a world in which most people are wrong. So I'm really okay with whatever goes down here. Can I borrow that? Can I just? Of course. Yeah. I mean, I think that way as I move through my day, but I've never quite distilled it so beautifully. So thank you. Well, let me say this, Josh.

59:01Adam Kempenaar:There's no world where I would take Prometheus before the fifth round. Okay. So we'll see how the draft shakes out. But with my now third pick, I am going to take a movie that I think a lot of listeners, if they've been listening a long time, they see it coming. They know I'm going to take this movie and I think they're even going to be happy about it. But if I was trying to win the draft, there are certainly two movies I should be taking ahead of it. If I wanted to win, there are two movies I should be taking ahead of it. But I don't care because I like this movie considerably more than both of them.

59:44Adam Kempenaar:And so I am taking, with my third pick, 2003's Matchstick Men.

59:51Josh Larsen:Oh, my God. Wait, wait, Roxanna, you have to explain that reaction. It was just, it was so. Does she? No, no, no. It was so beautifully done. Adam just really led us there. I was on the ride the whole time. It was great. How do you feel about the destination? I think that Adam is allowed to do whatever Adam wants to do.

1:00:15Adam Kempenaar:Thank you, Roxanne. Tell that to my family. Of course. And I think that everyone is allowed to make a wacky choice every once and again. And I want to hear the explanation so bad. What's there not to like about Matchstick Men? Another great star giving a great performance in a Ridley Scott film. I think Nicolas Cage is doing exactly what Nicolas Cage should do in a film being a star. I had this as my number five overlooked movie of the 2000s. Oh, wow. It is a movie that actually has it did not do well. It did not fare well at the box office. It made a decent amount of money, but it cost a lot of money.

1:00:52Adam Kempenaar:It was it was a bomb. It it did OK with critics, but it is not a beloved film. The only other critic that really went kind of crazy for it is Roger Ebert. So this is where I do want to go to the gospel of Roger to have a little bit of support for this. He says Ridley Scott's Magic Men tells three stories, each one intriguing enough to supply a movie. It is one, the story of a crisis in the life of a man crippled by neurotic obsessions. Two, the story of two con men. The other one, Sam Rockwell, who happened onto a big score. And three, the story of a man who meets the teenage daughter he never knew he had and finds himself trying to care for her.

1:01:30Adam Kempenaar:The hero of all three stories is Roy, Nicolas Cage, who suffers from obsessive compulsive disorder, agoraphobia, panic attacks, you name it.

1:01:38Josh Larsen:Look, Doc, I spent last Tuesday watching fibers on my carpet. and the whole time I was watching my carpet, I was worrying that I might vomit and the whole time I was thinking, I'm a grown man. I should know what goes on in my head and the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I should just blow my brains out and end it all. But then I thought, well, if I thought more about blowing my brains out, I started worrying about what that was going to do to my goddamn carpet. Okay, so.

1:02:03Adam Kempenaar:And all three storylines are interesting and yes, as I said, I think it is certainly one of my favorite Nicolas Cage performances. And I love Sam Rockwell as an actor, so you put them both together in this film. You compare it to, from a production design standpoint, the beginning of Alien with those opening shots, like we talked about, of the ship. And the opening shots of this movie, which are Roy's home. and it couldn't be more different in terms of being this pristine home from the outside and the inside. Everything seems perfect. It's this completely sterile environment, whereas in Alien, it seems very lived in, very grimy, very, very old in that way.

1:02:54Adam Kempenaar:But they both still give you the sense of loneliness, of isolation. And it's even the music is suggesting the good life, like he's he's living the the American dream or whatever. But we we come to know pretty quickly that that's not at all the kind of life he's actually he's actually living. And he is quite a lonely person. So I loved it when I saw Matchstick Man originally. And as a con man movie that actually has so much heart, you kind of forget it's a con man movie. It worked its wonders on me. I'll just leave it at that.

1:03:34Josh Larsen:Yeah, this is one where the strategy comes into play. I was a fan of Matchstick Man when it came out as well. I like it. I think it's one of his better films. And I was going to take it next if you hadn't, because I know about your love for it. So I'm a little sad I didn't get it for those diabolical reasons, but I'm okay with making another choice as well. So let's see here.

1:04:00Adam Kempenaar:No, wait, I got to know, Roxanna, since you scoffed. I mean, you more than scoffed. It seemed like you were just out and out, just making fun of my choice. Oh, no, no, no. It was not a ha-ha. More my grand setup. Yeah, it was like, ha-ha. I can take that. I can take that. Much better. Much better. I was just waiting. I was like, what could it possibly be? You thought I was going to go like, you know, wear white squall? That would be fine. House of Gucci. Something like that. House of Gucci. Yeah. I was like, Adam would never do that. Yeah. I went pretty pedestrian after all of that. is what you're saying.

1:04:42Adam Kempenaar:I got it. House of Gucci would have been incredible. It would have been. I really would have lost it. Sorry, Matchstick Men, Too Safe. You're right. A fun time. A fun movie. A fun movie. Okay, Josh. There you go. Your choice.

1:04:56Josh Larsen:Round three. Yeah, that bought me a little time here to make this choice since my strategy has gone awry. I guess if I can't have Alien and I don't want Prometheus, should I take Alien Covenant? I think I should. I think I should. I think I will. And it kind of splits the difference between those two, I feel. So here at this point in the draft, I'm comfortable taking it because yes, you still have some of that, you know, the, the turgid mythologizing of Prometheus is still there. There are remnants, but there's a little more of the genre sleekness from alien. And first and foremost, I think we're maybe picking up on, I don't know if it would be an auteurist quality, but certainly a quality of Scott as a filmmaker is his work with actors.

1:05:44Josh Larsen:That's come up a number of times already in many of our picks. And I don't know if I would have anticipated that going into this, but certainly we've rightly praised what he's been able to bring out in actors. And here you have, I mean, Michael Fassbender in a dual role. Thank you, first of all, just for that existing, but for it to work as well as it does here, playing, you know, synthetics, David and Walter. So yeah, I think, you know, it's not alien, obviously far away away from alien, but I lost that one. So alien covenant is going to go

1:06:21Adam Kempenaar:on my list. I knew you were a fan. I didn't know Roxanna was also a fan. I have it at number 16 on my list. So wasn't, wasn't going to go in my draft. Yeah. I have very mixed feelings about it. I think what I respond to the most is that I think it might be Ridley's nastiest film in terms of like, I think he really hated humanity while he was making this one. And if I am pinpointing when it was, I think it might have been after Tony died. I think that like in the big New Yorker profile that came out a few years ago I think Ridley talked about how this movie he felt like maybe it had the most of his grief and mourning his brother.

1:07:15So I think that there is something in it that is like very angry and unresolved. And I think I really respond to that. the like I I have learned not to take any of the alien like lore or mythology like seriously at any point because I think it has gotten completely out of hand um but I'm with you Josh that like what Fassbender is doing and I think sort of like the two paths that that character is charting about like individual choice and response to authority I think there's something really compellingly furious within that that I really like. And Danny McBride. You so rarely see Danny McBride in something that isn't a Danny McBride movie.

1:08:05So I'm very happy to see him here as well.

1:08:08Adam Kempenaar:That means, Roxanna, you get to close out round three. Okay. Can't wait. I am going to... Okay, so now this is where some strategy comes in. because I was like, what if I choose something that I actually had lower just to like clear things up? But I think I'm going to go with what I actually had like higher up, but hasn't made it in yet. And that is 2021's The Last Duel, which I really, really admire because I think that sort of this like Rashomon style. You're going to get three perspectives on one story. Could be very, I mean, for lack of like a more nuanced term, I think it could be like really played out because it's just such a device and it's been used so much.

1:09:06But I really, really respond to the little ways in which these three tellings of this story are different and how like each actor's performance changes within each slice of the story. And I think that the three parts are almost like differently paced. They certainly have different tonality as we're sort of interrogating this question of like, was this woman willingly cheating on her husband or was she raped like what were the circumstances of this i think that ridley takes a lot of care to differentiate the three accounts um in a way that i found very thoughtful again sort of taking me back to like ridley doing things that i wouldn't expect him to do i really think again like it is a difficult thing to interrogate rape and like causality um and the actions of men in like a big blockbuster movie i think that it is still really wild to do that i think it's wild to do that twice basically with thelma louise and with this film, arguably with the alien movies all also being about rape and sort of like the utility of the body.

1:10:31And G.I.

1:10:31Adam Kempenaar:Jane effectively has a rape scene. Yeah, like I just think it's really, I don't know, I hate to say interesting because that's such a nothing word, but I think it's a noticeable pattern that Ridley sort of keeps coming back to and I think like trying to understand the prevalence of this phenomenon in our society and what it actually does to like the moral fabric of how we treat each other and trust each other. So like I love all of that sort of thematic stuff. I think I love Ridley just in like period piece mode like between this and Kingdom of Heaven. He has such, in these films at least, he has such an eye for scale I think and for understanding like the ways to fill a frame with set design and with production design to really make you feel immersed.

1:11:22And the last thing I will say about him as a director of actors is I think this might be my second favorite Ben Affleck performance just because, again, he's so awful as a character. He just is really tapping into something very dark about the way that men consider women. And I think a lot about like the moment when he is talking about whether whether he should like fess up. Right. But he's like deny, deny, deny. And again, if we're thinking about like Ridley as a commentator on our culture, I think like a very self-involved ruler slash monarch slash royal figure believing that he can deny his way out of a bad situation.

1:12:17does feel very relevant to our current times so i'm going with the last duel the most unspeakable charge has been brought against you choclegri entered our home he attacked me the accusation is false

1:12:40i am telling the truth the truth does not matter there is only the power of men josh i'm wondering if you could help me out here and maybe explain to roxana and our audience why

1:12:56Adam Kempenaar:despite the fact that this was ridley scott that the storyline sounded fascinating we knew it had this Rashomon approach starred not only Ben Affleck and Matt Damon, but Adam Driver and Jody Comer came out in the fall of 2021 height of prestige season. Why not only did we not review it on the show, I'm pretty sure neither of us have still seen the last.

1:13:22Josh Larsen:Oh, no, I know it was. Yeah, that's the case. And it was on my homework list. Obviously, my biggest draft, my biggest to it. But I don't know, you know, the only thing I can say, Adam, is I don't remember a lot of talk about it before its release or even after. Not that it was panned, not that it was celebrated. It just, you know, it probably depends what else was coming out that fall. That's a busy season, but it sounds like we made a mistake on that one based on what Roxanna said.

1:13:54Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, I really, that was, I mean, I did some homework for this list. So I prioritized a few things ahead of it. We'll see if that pays off or not. But this was the last one that I felt like I really needed to get to. Everything below it, I could have been okay. I had a feeling this might come up and I blew it. But Roxanne, you've just made me even more excited to now finally seek it out. Yeah, I'm genuinely very curious what you two think, because at least in my very small corner of the internet, it is very well liked. But I do think a lot of the, you know, a lot of the sort of reporting that I saw about it before was that Nicole Halofcener, I'm going to pronounce that wrong, had done the screenplay and there was this question.

1:14:42Josh Larsen:Yeah, that's right. Yeah. How would Ridley adapt this? How would they work together? And I remember that a lot of the reviews were sort of I don't know if they were at like a two out of four. But I do think there was like a greater response to certain segments of the Rashomon style than others. So I think it is another sort of like semi mixed Ridley one, but it certainly feels like of the latter era Ridleys, I think people respect this one the most. But yes, I fully demand email replies from both of you within 48 to 72 hours. Oh, wow.

1:15:20Adam Kempenaar:Or what? Nothing. Yes. You must have satisfaction, I think is what you're supposed to say next. We do have a couple of picks left, but we like to remind you that you can see all of our choices anytime by going to filmspotting.net and clicking on lists right there at the top of the page.

1:15:43Josh Larsen:Adam Ridley Scott was more than just a visual director, but I think most moviegoers think of those visuals first. He made movies that demanded to be seen on the big screen in a theater, even something like Napoleon, produced by a streamer, got a theatrical release because it deserved that big experience. And the same with Dog Stars, his new film, which is playing in theaters right now. With Regal Unlimited, you could see the dog stars for free. Regal Unlimited is the all-you-can-watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits. Right now, Regal's offering film spotting listeners endless movies for less.

1:16:25Josh Larsen:If you sign up for Regal Unlimited using code FILMSPOT26, you'll get 15 % off. Regal Unlimited is the only truly limitless movie subscription pass. You can see any standard 2D movie anytime. They don't have blackout dates. They don't have restrictions. Also with Regal Unlimited, you're going to save on more than just tickets. You also save on snacks. Members get 10 % off all non-alcoholic concessions. Sign up now in the Regal app or at the link in our description and use code FILMSPOT26 to receive your discount. Adam, let's take a minute to thank our members of the Film Spotting family. Membership is the largest source of support for the show.

1:17:08Josh Larsen:It really does keep us doing what we've been doing for over 20 years. We want to thank this week family members David L. Williams in Belfont, Pennsylvania, and Jay in Minneapolis. David wrote in, got an iPod for Christmas 2004 and started listening to podcasts when they were featured on iTunes. the review for last days is an all-time great and i knew i had found my people so just real quick

1:17:32Adam Kempenaar:just real quick last days it's that kurt cobain gus van's movie great that we reviewed and and i i'm forgetting the line and of course it's it's much better than i'm going to try to repeat it but it's memorable because sam had a line that was something like i wanted it to end so i could declare it a masterpiece oh my god wow i know that feeling though right

1:17:56Josh Larsen:Yeah. It's the don't screw it up feeling. And you know, if you get a sense, there's like 10 minutes less than a movie you've loved. It's like, come on. Yeah. But he was, he was 10 minutes in. Oh, well, that's, that sounds like Sam.

1:18:12Josh Larsen:All right. Continuing with David's, David's letter here. I always love the marathons and how they give me an entry point into a part of cinema. I had not yet explored a review. We got wrong. Adam's overwhelming love of the perfectly okay film I never changed my hairstyle in 60 years, released in America as Atonement, is still puzzling. David, we were friends

1:18:35Adam Kempenaar:once. Brutal.

1:18:38Josh Larsen:That's rough. Okay. A film that David credits for becoming a cinephile. Reading in the newspaper that Barton Fink had won the Palme d 'Or and then renting it from my local video store blew my teenage mind. What was this movie? And were these really the people who made Raising Arizona, I was hooked for life. Favorite book about movies or movie making? Independent Visions, a critical introduction to recent American films by Donald Lyons. It came out in early 1994 and was a valuable guide for me. Plus, in his section about Reservoir Dogs, Lyons notes, quote, one future title mentioned is Pulp Fiction, a tribute to the world of the crime magazines of the 1930s.

1:19:17Josh Larsen:Sounds juicy.

1:19:19Adam Kempenaar:Indeed, that one panned out, didn't it? Let's see if Jay insults me here. I'm a rejoining family member after taking a break after COVID and not having a commute to focus on the podcast. No one episode hooked me specifically, but I took to the thoughtful, intelligent discussions about my favorite art form. Thanks, Jay. I really enjoyed the Minnelli marathon. The marathons are a great way to break out of a genre rut. Here's some more Cone Brothers love, a film I credit with becoming a cinephile, Miller's Crossing. Yes, Cone Brothers were a gateway for a lot of us. Yep.

1:19:51Josh Larsen:That was a major one for me indeed. Well, thank you, David. Thank you, Jay, for joining the family and for listening. If you would like to follow them on Letterboxd, David is at Playwright David and Jay is at J-A-G-E-P-R-O.

1:20:05Adam Kempenaar:You can learn more about joining the Film Spotting Family at filmspottingfamily.com. You get early and ad-free listening. You get a weekly newsletter. You get access to the Film Spotting Family Discord. You get complete access to the Film Spotting Archive. It's 1 ,100 episodes or so when you add in all the bonus shows and such. You also do get our monthly bonus episodes. Roxanna, we just posted a bonus show. Myself, Josh, and Sam got together and talked about Kiyoshi Kurosawa's Cure from 1997. Do you know that film? I do know Cure. Yeah. I just made a slightly horrified face. Yeah, you flinched appropriately.

1:20:50Yeah. Oh, God.

1:20:51Adam Kempenaar:Well, we were disturbed in the best way possible watching that film. And we had a very, very good, a very fun conversation about it. So Film Spotting family members are enjoying that in their feed now. If you would like to hear that, again, you can become a Film Spotting family member. Also, we did crown the Film Spotting madness just for family members. Best film of the 1920s and 30s. Came down to The Wizard of Oz versus Sherlock Jr. maybe not a big surprise. The Wizard of Oz did ultimately take it 61 % to 39%. We have to congratulate Josh. Maria Marchesini, I hope I said that right, Maria. You'll have to correct me here when you jump on a draft that we're going to do with you.

1:21:39Adam Kempenaar:You get to pick the topic and we'll do a bonus show draft with you. Maria in Kent UK was the winner. And Josh, she is always near the top of the leaderboard. I think she's been in second in past madness competitions. I don't know what her secret is, but she finally won it all.

1:21:56Josh Larsen:Congratulations, Maria. And this is great because she had emailed when I was having an Edinburgh meetup that she had hoped to come. It didn't work out. Didn't get to hang out with her. Now I get to do a bonus episode with her. So looking forward to that.

1:22:10Adam Kempenaar:And maybe we'll see her. Sorry, Roxanne, were you going to say something? I was going to say that sounds awesome. That's such a nice perk to do. I just think I just I'm just effusive and enjoying this.

1:22:20Josh Larsen:They are always a lot of fun because, you know, somewhat like you, though we know your critical taste, but really a lot of these listeners are total wild cards. We don't necessarily know where they're going to go in a draft. So yeah, it's a really fun element.

1:22:33Adam Kempenaar:And we do one last thing. We have trivia spotting for family members exclusively and quiz master Thomas Todd aforementioned coming up on Thursday, September 17th. Roxanna, we roped you into that at least once, didn't we? Yeah, and I'm so bad at trivia. Well, join the club. It was very fun. She's like, don't ask me to be back. See? See, Roxanne even says it. You don't have to be good to have a good time playing trivia spotting. You can sign up for that now as well. Filmspottingfamily.com. The top, I think, sci-fi films, in my estimation, would be Arianne and Blade Runner. I'm not going to be modest about that.

1:23:11Adam Kempenaar:Let's get back to the draft now. we are ready for round four and Roxanna that does mean that after the last duel you are up with another choice okay I am gonna go with a movie that I I think if I'm remembering correctly I like pretty much hated when I first saw it and I did not I was like I don't understand why what's happening is happening. And it took some repeat watches and it took some further reading for me to grow to appreciate the 2013 film, The Counselor. Really? Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, how to explain this?

1:24:01Josh Larsen:Tell us your journey with The Counselor. Yeah, let me say the journey. I okay I really love Cormac McCarthy but when I was first watching this movie I was like is this Cormac or is this somebody pretending to be Cormac there was something about it that felt very like engineered maybe is the word there was something about the movie that felt very sterile to me and I did not respond to it immediately aside from Cameron Diaz in a car which I of course appreciated as soon as it was put on screen but I think that I I was really frustrated with it and I was really frustrated with how dark it was and I think I felt somewhat unfulfilled and I think in the years since then as I've become a more nihilistic pessimistic person I go back to this film and I think like there was something captured here about where we are heading and sort of how disposable we can be as human beings and how society can sort of decide that some of us are just no longer necessary to their greater ambitions or their greed.

1:25:27or their need for more capital or more power or more control. I think there is something, again, like we keep going back to like these questions that Ridley seems to be working through. And I think for me, in time, I have come to see this as, again, sort of like a low point, maybe, in Ridley's view of like people at large. But I think of it in a lot of ways as very similar to obviously No Country for Old Men, but also Killing Them Softly, There Will Be Blood, sort of these movies that were coming out in this like six to eight year period where we were interrogating, again, this question of like the American West and what it represents and what we have lost.

1:26:18and maybe what we never really had when we romanticized it in a certain way. So I've come to really appreciate it, but it did take like rereading Blood Meridian and like spending more time with Cormac to like get to that place. And I do think that it is an interesting performance from Fassbender. Another Fassbender. Yeah, because his normal, like, charming self. But it is very almost, like, caustic. There's, like, a real edge to it, which I do keep sort of coming back to. And I think, like, oh, this is what would then be used so well in something like Alien Covenant. Like, this would be sharpened and made even more acidic in a way.

1:27:12I have something to discuss with you. And I'm a bit scared. If you pursue this road, you will eventually come to moral decisions that will take you completely by surprise. What do you think I should do? I don't know, counselor. I have grown to really like it. I do feel like people hate it. And I say that as someone who first thought they hated it. But it has come to represent something, I think, interesting in Ridley's career and again in sort of like his portrait of like what is America. I think that this is like a sort of a sort of a remarkable sort of point on that map.

1:27:53Adam Kempenaar:so without in any way purporting to degrade your choice roxana if you look at ridley scott's films ranked on the tomato meter or the thermometer whatever you would like to call it how many of his films out of 29 so we're not counting the new one i i don't believe the dog stars makes 30 i think so this is out of 29 how many films do you think are ranked below below the counselor's 34%. This is trivia. So this is probably not good for you. I mean, God, I, I would hope. Look, I really want to say that Exodus is ranked lower than this, but I'm going to guess that it's not. It is actually. Oh, thank God.

1:28:47But no, people hate this one, right, Adam? Like, yeah, reviled.

1:28:50Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, no, yeah, 34%, but also below it is 1492, Conquest of Paradise, Josh's next choice. Then Exodus, Gods and Kings, followed by, in last place, A Good Year is number 29. Wow. Wait, so Napoleon is over these? Yeah, Napoleon is...

1:29:11Josh Larsen:Now, Roxanna, what's that phrase you said about people being wrong? Yeah, I'm very accustomed to people being wrong. There you go. Just you're good. Just say that three times and you'll be fine. Is that an indicator, Josh, of where you're going in round four? No, no, no. I, you know, have you seen, I haven't seen the counselor. Have you seen, seen it, Adam? See, why, why did you have to embarrass us again? Well, oh my God, you got, it was, it was high up there.

1:29:39Adam Kempenaar:This is 40 % of her choices. Like we, we have to now not put this show out.

1:29:44Josh Larsen:This is what I'm saying is, is she at once embarrassed us, but also made it easy because she's picked two films that I could not have picked. Yeah, I think that's good. We're making a multifaceted list.

1:29:55Adam Kempenaar:This show is never going to see the light of day. Oh my God. That's how I'm spinning it. It's too embarrassing.

1:29:59Josh Larsen:Yeah, the reputation of the counselor is why it was high on my homework list. And I ran out of time. It was just one of those like, I've got to see this at some point. And it didn't happen. Roxanna probably would have grabbed it before me anyway. 48 to 72 hours. Gosh, this means. This means. Yeah. Now, can you stretch our deadline a little more now that you've given us two?

1:30:19Adam Kempenaar:If we're going according to what I didn't get to on my homework list, that means that Roxanna's last choice is going to be Black Rain. Oh, Adam. Oh, did I call it? Adam, yes. Here we go. 60%. 60 % of Roxanna's list I haven't seen. Well. I'll go with something else. Okay. No, no. Go with it. Go with it. Who knows if I've seen the one you're going to pick. Like, I swear I've seen a lot of Ridley Scott movies. I thought I was totally prepared for this draft. And Roxanna is shaming me.

1:30:57Josh Larsen:Well, okay, Josh. I guess it really depends on what we would make of the counselor, Adam. So, you know. Put us back on track. So, I'm going to go with one I'm not that confident about. Because, again, have not revisited since it was first released. And let me look at the year here. Roxanna has been good about, um, giving us the year of these, some of these films. I'm going to go with a 2001 movie and it's black Hawk down. And this is a movie. I can, I put an asterisk on this pick because I feel a little bit, I've seen so many American military films since then I've lived through so many ill-advised real world military exploits since then.

1:31:44Josh Larsen:this is a movie that struck me as surprisingly apolitical at the time. And just, you know, to refresh memories or to let people know who've never seen it, this basically tells the story of a 1993 clash between Somali militiamen and us special forces. So what I appreciated about it then is it didn't feel to me like an exercise in jingoism, but also it comes back to the Martian. Actually. I remember it was the logistical details of modern warfare and then the experience of American soldiers in the midst of that. And, you know, I have space for movies that honestly want to tell that American story of young men and women largely sent overseas and have to just survive what they've been thrown into.

1:32:32Josh Larsen:I think that's a completely legitimate exercise for a film. Um, I would like to revisit black Hawk down and see how much it really is that, or just seeing that year, 2001 makes me think, I don't recall, you know, it's, it's actual release month. Um, this was maybe a summer movie. I mean, it was clearly in production, um, before nine 11 and so December, 2001. It was December. Okay. Thank you. Um, clearly made right before then, but yeah. just in the sense of what America means on the global stage and how it wields its power felt very differently in December than while that movie was being made and to place that burden on it probably wouldn't be fair.

1:33:19Josh Larsen:So I'd at once want to have that historical lens and take it with a grain of salt if that makes sense. That's a lot of waffling for a movie that I think is just brilliantly made in terms of craft if we're going back to this sense of Scott being able to put us in the immediacy of a brilliantly designed for its story production. I think Black Hawk Down does this as well as any of his movies. This was, you know, following Gladiator. So he's kind of in that like altered frame rate mode for action scenes. But again, that made things very exciting. And I wonder if I'd have qualms about that excitement level watching it again.

1:33:59Josh Larsen:Anyway, a lot of qualms for a pick, but I do, among what's left, think I want to go with Black Hawk Down. I was trying to fight. You're trying to fight, Sergeant? I was trying to make a difference. So guess what? You're going out today. What? That's what you wanted, isn't it? Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. Just remember when everybody else is shooting, shooting the same

1:34:19Adam Kempenaar:direction i'm with you in that i felt similarly about its craft and i suppose it's its politics or lack thereof back in 2001 as i recall it josh but that was a long time ago a long time ago and i have not seen it since then and i've had no desire to revisit it since then to be totally honest. So it's one that in this spot, I might have felt obligated to take it just based on its reputation and my remembrance of it. I remember in 2001 writing newspaper reviews at the time in grad school and having it in my top 10 and just thinking it was certainly one of the best films of the year then, but I have no idea how I would feel about that film.

1:35:10Adam Kempenaar:Now, I do know how I feel about my next pick in round four. And this is where some homework pays off. And it is another military movie, though a very different kind of military movie. And I'm also glad I watched it because, you know, you can look back at a lot of filmmakers' first features and see how it sets the template in a lot of ways. And The Duelist is a really good movie. The compositions, the use of landscape, but also how he uses light indoors is so rich. The storyline, the thing I was thinking about watching it, going back to Alien Covenant a little bit, actually, I was thinking about Alien Covenant watching The Duelist, and here's why.

1:36:03Adam Kempenaar:I was thinking about Fassbender's David. And if it's almost like The Duelist, this movie where you've got Harvey Keitel and I'm blanking on he's not as memorable as Harvey Keitel. Keith Carradine, right, as these French soldiers who, as the title suggests, they have a duel early in the film. And the dishonor is so great, at least according to the Keitel character, that they continue to have this spat over the course of decades and then multiple duels. This is another reason why I really wanted to watch The Last Duel. I wanted to sort of see how this book ended in Ridley Scott's career. But the thing I was thinking about with Alien Covenant is it's almost like a character like David, if he was trying to get a sense of what honor and duty actually meant to humans.

1:37:11Adam Kempenaar:If he wanted to understand what those words meant, the duelist seems like a treatise or an exploration of those words because these characters are fundamentally wrestling with that. The Keith Carradine character feels this obligation, even though he doesn't feel as aggrieved as Keitel's. He nevertheless basically feels bound to continue to defend himself against this man. And his life is ultimately dictated in some ways by him to the point where he really doesn't have, he almost doesn't have any free will of his own. I don't suppose General Farrow would accept an apology. I have a question. You could declare yourself unfit to be a soldier and resign your command.

1:38:02That might do. It wouldn't do. The general has received too deep an injury. I see.

1:38:12Adam Kempenaar:That element to me, this idea too, you can see it in Gladiator. You can see it in some of his other films. This idea of duty, I think, and in Black Hawk Down as well, is one that comes up. It's a beautiful film, just to look at. You see the Ridley Scott visual style right away. You understand why, even though a movie like Alien, from a content standpoint, you might not understand why the producers of Alien would have tapped him to make that film, but you understand visually, you can see the eye early on and see why they might have approached him to make that film. I think you're inspiring me.

1:38:58Josh Larsen:Well, you have another pick, so I was going to say to go with a homework pick as well, but I have to wait. I don't think you're going to steal it though. So go ahead. Where are you heading?

1:39:07Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Well, I think there is a pretty obvious pick here for me, even though we are now getting into, after the duelists, we're getting into the territory of movies. Two out of four stars? No, not two, actually. I'm in the realm now of just three out of five on Letterboxd. So I liked it, liked it, but did not love it. And that matters because this movie, I think a fair number of people do feel stronger about it. And it was a movie I expected to love. I remember going into the theater in this year, which is one of our, this will be an indicator for people listening, one of our all-time great cinematic years, expecting based on the cast and the director and the material, I thought this film is going to be one of the best films of the year.

1:40:05Adam Kempenaar:It's going to be up there with all these other incredible achievements. The movie is American Gangster. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You're re-teaming Crow with Ridley Scott, adding in Denzel Washington, and the material being about the lone good cop now becoming a lawyer, and he's putting away the drug lord. It just seemed tailor-made for me, and I think it's a perfectly fine movie. I cannot remember. I'd have to go back and look through my notes and see what my criticisms were when it was reviewed on the show. but it was a movie that worked for me just enough for me to recommend it and that was about it.

1:40:48Adam Kempenaar:I didn't have a passionate response to American Gangster. Do either of you, that was before you joined the show, Josh. Do you remember how you felt about it? I gave American Gangster two out of four stars, Adam. Here you go. I love that. What about you, Roxanna? I'm with you. I think it's fine. I actually probably put it more as a two out of five than a three out of five. But I do have a number of friends who ride really hard for this movie and really appreciate it for its depiction of, like, Denzel Washington and, like, all of his machinations and sort of, like, him taking care of his family and sort of how much of a mess the cops are.

1:41:32I am talking to a felon right now with face tattoos, and I cannot decide if I like him or not. That was a caller from my podcast, Therapy Gecko, where I speak with anonymous callers about their problems, relationships, and anything else in the depths of their mind. It all happens on my show, Therapy Gecko, where we have real conversations just like this. Sometimes I'll have my girlfriend pre-chew spicy food and kind of baby bird it into my mouth. Is that weird? This week is Human Connection Week. We're taking a peek into the lives of various strangers who found my phone number online. We'll hear their funny moments, their difficult ones, and their unexpectedly profound ones.

1:42:15These are real conversations with real people figuring out life one call at a time. So if you're trying to get out of your own head and into someone else's, this is the podcast for you. Listen to Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Brennan, and on my podcast, Hollywoodland, I revisit some of the biggest stories from Hollywood history, separating the myths people want to believe from the reality underneath them. Like how the story of Marilyn Monroe isn't just the story of a Hollywood icon. Marilyn Monroe has become so iconic that her death can only be explained through conspiracy theories.

1:42:57And for some fans who can't let go, these stories have metastasized from conjecture to accepted fact. So on August 4th, 1962, Marilyn Monroe died. Then the rumors started and she died again. And now we're going to set the record straight and learn about the way Marilyn Monroe actually died. The third way. Learn more about what happens when fame, media obsession and conspiracy collide. Listen to Hollywoodland on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City.

1:43:41On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you.

1:43:52Josh Larsen:A hundred percent of women go through menopause. it can be such a struggle for our quality of life but even if it's natural why should we suffer through it? The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything I never used to forget things they're concerned that one they have dementia and the other one is do I have ADHD? There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids to sleep better, to have less pain, to have better mood and also to have better day-to-day life. Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Pointer on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now.

1:44:52way in 11 months I'm making the Paralympics. Advocate Elizabeth Smart. I still feel that drive that I can still make a difference. So I'm going to keep going. Celebrity chef Carla Hall. Was that scary to walk away from such a stable career after just two years? No, I was more afraid of being unhappy than I was broke in a dead end job that I didn't enjoy. And feminist legend Gloria Steinem. All of us were trying to express women's real lives. We need a meeting place of our own. And if I can contribute to that, I'd like to maintain that and leave this house for that purpose. Listen to She Pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:45:32I do think that all of that is perfectly fine. But to me, it's the closest that Ridley has come to trying to make a Michael Mann movie, and I don't think it works. So it doesn't hit for me personally.

1:45:43Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, that's really well said. So yeah, it just didn't, maybe it was a case, honestly, of, of not quite living up to very high expectations. And upon a rewatch, I, I might come in with more reasonably set expectations. And I do, there are moments and there are scenes that, that, that pop up here and again on TV and you see Crow and Denzel going at it a little bit and you get a little bit of a charge from watching two really fine actors do, you know, ply their trade, but that that's about it with American gangster. Did you really find a million dollars in the trunk of a car and turn it in? Yeah.

1:46:21Did you do that? You did that for real, huh? My man. Good for you. You know Johnny Law got it, though, right? Maybe. Ain't no maybe about it, Mr. Richard. You know he got it. You turned that money in, he took it, and you ain't getting nothing for it, did you? Why'd you do that? What's the right thing to do? That's true. That's a good answer. What's the right thing to do? The question I have, the question I've been asking myself is, would you do it again?

1:46:49Josh Larsen:all right i'm gonna go with my homework pick and for my final pick and it's not just because of homework i mean there are i like how it looks among my other choices actually there probably are a few scott films that i have rated higher but having just watched 1985's legend it's such of curiosity and maybe i'll court a few votes here because while derided at the time it does have cult status now curiosity be why while tom cruise is like bounding about a completely fake forest um and he does a lot of bounding um you have a story that's just a mess i mean going back to this notion of Scott needing strong material.

1:47:41Josh Larsen:That is absolutely what he does not have here. This is, it's, it's like, I know it's more fantasy than, than sci-fi, but it's very much the opposite of star Wars where their religion myth and pop culture is it's kind of creates this enchanting alchemy here. It's just a mishmash. It doesn't work at all. Uh, in terms of the story, You can see where everything's been plucked and then it's just kind of been plopped onto a table and nothing's been done with it except how it's been envisioned. And the craft here is just extraordinary. I think maybe part of its cult status and appeal is the more we get into ages of increased digital imagery to see something that, you know, has early vision variations on that.

1:48:31Josh Larsen:But primarily, these sets, this forest, and the other fantasy realms we see here, there's artifice, but it's like on the right side of artifice, where it doesn't matter that you know it's all been created. It's Wizard of Oz level. The fakery is part of the wonder. And there are plenty of movies where it's fake and it looks ridiculous, and Legend is not one of them. they've managed to make this again a realm you can imagine yourself in and the cinematography is part of that obviously the production design the makeup work here is just seamless it's surreal you know we're we're going to be mentioning tim curry is passing and he plays the adversary here this demon darkness again kind of a ridiculous concept and how it's fleshed out but his look is incredible.

1:49:27Josh Larsen:That face. I knew, I mean, I've known that face since I was a kid, having never seen the movie just from the immediacy of the makeup design. So legend is a film that, you know, doesn't always work, but it absolutely looks the part. So I like it as a number five pick.

1:49:46Adam Kempenaar:Roxanna, I saw that movie in 1985 when I was probably too young and remember Really dark. Yeah. Remember having my mind kind of blown by it. Do you remember when you saw Legend? I think it was one of these that I saw on like UPN on a Saturday afternoon or something. I don't.

1:50:08Josh Larsen:So not the director's cut. No. I have it absorbed within me, but I think it's less distinct to me than like Return to Oz or something like that. Like I remember being sort of kooky and weird primarily because of Tim Curry, but I don't think I remember much else about it, but I like it here as sort of like a, another like Ridley deviation. Yeah. And I mean, just this, this emphasis on style, right. Which I'm not meaning in a derogatory way. I think it's his strength. And when he leans into it, he can, I cannot imagine what legend would have been in a lesser skilled visualist. visualist the hands of a lesser skilled visualist roxana you get to close out our ridley scott draft your fifth and final choice okay i'm gonna say this and i'm i'm like i i will see if you do have seen it yeah really i think you have i think i'm gonna guess no but go ahead i'm gonna guess yes uh i'm gonna close this out with 2008's body of lies yep yeah okay good okay great and i'm I will check as you're talking.

1:51:20That's fine.

1:51:21Josh Larsen:You must have, Josh. Body of Lies. How to begin my thoughts on Body of Lies. I am not a Black Hawk Down person. I think that it is a film that is ostensibly anti-war, but actually quite pro-war in what it depicts in terms of honor and loyalty and all of these self-sacrificing feelings that you um will experience when you're in a country killing people of color um so i i think that like the impact of that movie has actually been like quite destructive um and i feel like something yeah and but again and you know that's my like you know very lefty perspective on it um but i do think that something like body of lies and to a certain degree kingdom of heaven i think these to me feel almost like ridley sort of being like my bad let me do correct let me do a corrective um and i also think body of lies so okay so body of lies is about the cia and their operations in jordan to hunt down like a terrorist mastermind it is russell crow again as like cia guy in virginia who is like you know laying out these like complicated plans doesn't care about like international sovereignty basically just treats it as like the u.s and the cia can do whatever they want around the world which like mostly they do and they can um and leonardo dicaprio is playing like the agent on the ground the guy who actually has to like make connections with people to gather information about what they're trying to do well hey buddy back from the sandbox i enjoy Join civilization.

1:53:09You want to go and get a hot dog? How do you expect me to operate, huh, Ed? What are you keeping all the cards to your chest? What about an ice cream? All Honey wanted was patience, Ed. Patience, not as a personal quality. I don't care what Honey wanted. Not as a personal quality, but as an operational requirement. You can't do it, huh? You are too power hungry and greedy. You f*** this whole operation up. For Christ's sakes, I thought Honey wanted to kill me. Oh, don't exaggerate. Honey don't want to kill you. Relax you. I really like the two of them together. I think that Russell is just in pure like DJF like doesn't care about anything.

1:53:43It is like a very interesting 180 I think from Gladiator and from his previous work with Ridley. And I really like Leo here. I feel like this was sort of on that time when he wasn't really playing heroes necessarily, but he was sort of playing flawed men who are aware that they are flawed and are still trying to like devote themselves to something. It is very clearly, I think, Ridley's attempt at doing Spy Game, which was like Tony's version of this with like Bradford and Brad Pitt. Also sort of like how does intelligence and sort of like covert operations end up damaging lots of really innocent people?

1:54:33but I you know I really like Body of Lies it feels to me like again sort of a little overlooked because there isn't really much that is flashy about it it's like surveillance imagery planes drones all the stuff that Tony was working with in sort of building this genre but I think it's a pretty solid Leo performance I can tolerate Mark Strong in brown face he's playing like a Jordanian, Jordanian character. And what I also really appreciate about these movies is like, I do think that Ridley cast them with an array of interesting Middle Eastern Arab Muslim actors. And I say that because there is a Palestinian movie that I love very much called Paradise Now.

1:55:24And the two stars of that movie are in this. And yes, it is essentially still sort of saying a why is terrorism a problem in the Middle East question. But I think it's more clear eyed about like the American role in maintaining that political ideology. so I really like it I was surprised I have to sort of remember that it like sort of made money which was like shocking at the time it made 120 it cost like 68 so it didn't make a ton of money but this to me felt sort of like Ridley proving to us that he can still do drama that he is still sort of fascinated by these like larger worldwide questions and i just i enjoy it i like it i think

1:56:16Josh Larsen:it's good yeah that interplay between um crow and dicaprio i was one of the strengths but yeah that being said two out of four stars turns out yeah and and i forgot that actually that's another one

1:56:28Adam Kempenaar:that i do have in my like range yeah i also i liked body of lies and and i agree about the the two performances there. So with that, we officially conclude our Ridley Scott draft. We encourage you to go to filmspotting.net slash lists to see all of our choices. You can see exactly how it all played out. Roxanna is now done shaming us for the Ridley Scott films. Stop it. Oh my God. Not seen.

1:56:58Josh Larsen:Roxanna, name a Ridley Scott film you haven't seen just to make us feel better. Or are you a completist? I'm not a completist. I don't think I've seen a good year.

1:57:06Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Well, that was number 29 on the Rotten Tomatoes list. So, you know, if our critical brethren are correct, then you're good, right?

1:57:14Josh Larsen:I'm just going to beat this bit to death, but I kid you not, two out of four stars for a good year for me. Wait, Josh, what was Dog Stars? Haven't seen it yet. Have you? Okay. No. If you... Oh, okay. Because yeah, we have not gotten to Dog Stars quite yet. Yeah.

1:57:32Adam Kempenaar:To be clear, that's not a no, you haven't seen it. That's a no, don't bother. It is a no, I have not seen it. Oh, okay. By the hand gesture, I wasn't sure. Because I was at the beach. Okay. Like us, you have better things to do. Yeah, I'm off this week. I took off a week just to do stuff at home. So I do have a little list of movies that I need to watch this week, and Dog Stars is on it, unfortunately. Well, thank you for making time for us. Yeah, of course. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate it. Of course. Obviously, you added a significant amount of substance to this Ridley Scott draft, and we look forward to having you back on again soon.

1:58:09Thank you, guys. Thank you for having me on. Hey, take care, Roxanna.

1:58:11Adam Kempenaar:We have to remind people, though, where they can find your work. Yes, you can find me at Vulture. You can find me on X. You can find me on Blue Sky. Any places that tolerate my Ridley's movies about the Middle East are good, actually, agenda. And we will link, speaking of that, we will link to your article about Kingdom of Heaven in our show notes. So seek that out. Thank you again, Roxanna. Thanks, Roxanna. Ang mga tao na pwede lang sa golf course ay mga golfers at caddies. Golfer ka ba? It is time for Golden Brickspotting. Philippi Niana is the feature debut from director Rafael Manuel. It debuted at this year's Sundance, and it opens in limited release this weekend, including in Chicago at the Gene Siskel Film Center.

1:59:04Adam Kempenaar:Set at a country club in the Philippines, it's about a young woman, Joribel Agoto's Isabel, and her curious interest in the club's president. She soon realizes that the club and its pristine grounds are not all as they appear. If you're nominating it for the Golden Brick, Josh, that must mean that something stood out to you in terms of the director's vision. Tell me what that is.

1:59:28Josh Larsen:And sometimes it seems unfair to include a title in the golden brick race, because as emerging filmmakers, you, you know, sometimes we see glimpses or promise, right? And then sometimes movies arrive so fully formed. You're like, wait, this is a feature debut. I think maybe another strong contender this year, Blue Heron, we might put in that category. And yeah, Filipina is on that level. Just the striking assurance that Manuel has of the compositions here and the imagery. These are tableaus that he creates, and then he adds movement and rhythm into them often to create these juxtapositions between what we're seeing and how things are moving and what that all says.

2:00:15Josh Larsen:There's choreography at play. It feels like a slow cinema musical in a way, because these are all very long shots as well. Long takes, I should say. So it's very unique. At the same time, you can see traces of going all the way back to Jacques Tati or relatively more recently, a filmmaker we've explored, Roy Anderson, where you have these tableaus and different figures moving throughout them and some sort of commentary at play. I would say Filipinana is much more acerbic, much more acidic in its black humor, particularly where this ends. I'm not going to give anything away, but definitely if you go see this at the Cisco Film Center, stay through the final credits all the way to the end.

2:01:04Josh Larsen:Because you won't have experienced this movie unless you do that. One question I have, and this actually relates to the movie Racket, what Michael Phillips and Robert Daniels are talking about on this past Monday's episode, message movies. And what is a message movie and when can that be good? When can it be negative? I mean, this is clearly making statements about class, about capitalism, and that is what I appreciated about it. but it's also a blunt instrument in that way. You get what every one of these compositions is trying to communicate. I think I like that. I think I appreciate, even though you understand that message, the creativity of the artistry that's been employed to get it across.

2:01:56Josh Larsen:But I'll be curious to see how reactions are on that front. So yeah, this is not only a strong golden brick contender right now, it's leapt into my top 10 of the year so far list. So that will give you a sense of how high I am on it at least. And I hope people really do seek it out because however you feel about this, I think Manuel is going to be a talent that's going to do some astonishing stuff moving forward.

2:02:25Adam Kempenaar:Keep an eye out for Phil Vignana out now in limited release if you would like to see our growing list of 2026 BRIC nominees. You can go to filmspotting.net slash BRICS. We did want to take a moment to note the passing of both Dolly Parton and Tim Curry. Dolly's passing was fair to say seismic in its response, but Tim Curry certainly also beloved. And certainly one positive outcome from this, Josh, was that Dolly's passing got you to watch a movie that, is this right, you hadn't seen before? You had never watched 9 to 5?

2:03:07Josh Larsen:I don't, I don't know how to explain my experience with nine to five Adam, because it is at once a film that I feel like was constantly on during my childhood in some way at the same. And when I watched it, there were long stretches, whereas like, I have seen this. I absolutely have seen this, but I don't think I ever watched the thing, the whole thing through in its entirety. I don't know how to explain that. You know, we, I didn't, we didn't have cable growing up, so it couldn't have been catching it walking in on cable. Maybe it was VHS at friends' houses. I don't know, but it was a delight to watch it again.

2:03:45Josh Larsen:Um, it's, you know, it's, it's got its ups and downs, nine to five. None of its downs are due to Dolly Parton.

2:03:53Adam Kempenaar:Look, I got a gun out there in my purse and up to now I've been forgiven and forgetting because of the way I was brought up. But I'll tell you one thing. If you ever say another word about me or make another indecent proposal, I'm going to get that gun of mine and I'm going to change you from a rooster to a hand with one shot.

2:04:10Josh Larsen:She just not only shines on the screen in this movie, but is so happy to be there. And I don't mean like she thinks she's getting a shot at something that she knows she belongs there and she's just having a blast as she should. And it did make me think as we look at some of her other, you know, titles here as a lead, best little whorehouse in Texas with Burt Reynolds. Again, 82. I have, you know, memories, vague memories of that one. Rhinestone with Sylvester Stallone in 1984. And then of course, Steel Magnolia is part of that ensemble. You know, she could have had three to four star vehicles, romantic comedy, something in that genre that she would have hit out of the park.

2:04:57Josh Larsen:I'm not saying she would have ever rivaled Meryl Streep during that era, but, uh, it is a bit of a shame that she didn't either get more opportunities or maybe want them. I mean, maybe she just said, I had fun. I'm going to go back to music. Um, but she, she would have easily been able to carry really strong, well-written romantic comedies with her mixture of, um, you know, just comic timing. That's the musician in her, right? comic timing, sense of joy. And, and, uh, the self-awareness is what was so unique about her, I think. And you see that nine to five. So yeah, incredible screen presence.

2:05:35Josh Larsen:If you think like you only, for some reason, you only need the music. No, you need to, you need to watch Dolly Parton on, on screen as well.

2:05:42Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. I don't know what was different. Well, I know part of what was different about our childhoods. I did have cable and my parents didn't block what I watched and I I watched nine to five, not that it was necessarily a movie that kids shouldn't watch, though. It had some adult themes and material. Certainly I watched nine to five every time it was on. I don't know what it was about that movie that I responded to as a young lad, Josh, but I adored it.

2:06:10Josh Larsen:It works at the level. One reason might be it works at the level of cartoon. I mean, literally there's an animated cartoon in it. Right. So it could have it could have simply been that maybe.

2:06:19Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, it could have been part of it. I did enjoy, I think I remember thinking about my mom then as someone who worked in the corporate world in a small town, but for a corporation that was a pretty big company that produced something that was shipped all over the United States and the world and was part of that world. And I remember seeing something in those characters that reminded me of my mom and some of the same things that I felt like she had to she had to battle. And maybe that was even the first film, the first movie that I remember watching where I remember at that age being exposed to the idea of sexism.

2:07:05Adam Kempenaar:Truly the idea of misogyny in the workplace was watching a movie like nine to five.

2:07:10Josh Larsen:Do you have any recollection of your mom's awareness of the film or response to it if she saw it? I don't remember.

2:07:16Adam Kempenaar:I don't remember. But surely it was something that we were both aware of. And it was a film she watched. Probably watched it with her the first time. So I loved that film. And speaking of childhood, I mean, Tim Curry, Annie in 1982 playing Rooster. I loved that film. I loved that performance.

2:07:52Adam Kempenaar:And then Clue from 1985. And you forget that legend may or may not come up later, but he even has a role, a fairly memorable role in the hunt for red October in 1990. Of course, most well known for the Rocky horror picture show. And we'll, we'll get to the Rocky horror picture show maybe a little bit later when we talk about what, may be coming up in terms of upcoming programming for film spotting he was also in the tv adaptation of stephen king's it as pennywise but i didn't know this until until sam put it in our notes here that he was tony nominated in 1980 for his mozart in the original broadway production of amadeus and his salieri was ian mckellen so this is a three-time tony nominee for amadeus for my favorite year for spam a lot just obviously an incredible performer and and sad sad that we had tim curry and and dolly parton going the same week and now we're going to honor both of them

2:08:54Josh Larsen:by playing massacre theater i i suppose we are this is where adam and i perform a scene and you get a chance to win a film spotting prize last time we massacred this scene just make me a

2:09:06Adam Kempenaar:I don't know. Spaghetti, please. Secondo. I want to know for who is it for?

2:09:15Josh Larsen:For the lady with the risotto. What? Why? She likes starch. I don't know. Come on. That was Stanley Tucci and noted Italian Tony Shalhoub in 1996's Big Night, written by Tucci and Joseph Ciarpiano, directed by Tucci and Campbell Scott. That massacre was part of the show that featured reviews of The End of Oak Street and the Anthony Bourdain biopic Tony. So why that scene from Big Night?

2:09:42Adam Kempenaar:Probably pretty obvious. Here's Bruce Batchelor Glader in Milford, Ohio. The minute I heard risotto, the Big Night orders up bell went off. Never has a film featured this delicate dish so prominently. Obviously tied into this week's review of Tony, Big Night's story about two brothers working in an Italian restaurant kitchen to create one very special dish evoked a similar event in Tony. although without the pyrotechnic disaster your authentic italian accents surely evoke stanley tucci and tony shalhoub's voice work resulting in a brimming hat of correct answers now that's a spicy meatball whoa can i ask for a retake you have to say it that way that's that's how you have

2:10:22Josh Larsen:to say it that's a spicy meatball okay well that's better meet the ball see you outperformed me Well, I just, I never heard it done that way. Here's Addison Alley from Salt Lake City, Utah. This is big night. I could tell because I could hear your hand gestures. Oh boy. The obvious connection is to the end of Oak Street with how the film famously ends with a pack of velociraptors storming the restaurant and feasting on the diners. But it also very loosely connects with Tony with its depiction of the art and drama of a busy restaurant kitchen.

2:10:56Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Well done. Here's Jeff Clark, Carborough, North Carolina. While there is a superficial connection with your review of Tony having to do with cooking, shallow given the gap in skill between Tony and Primo, there is a deeper connection with your review of The End of Oak Street. The latter had rapacious dinosaurs and Big Night had Ian Holmes' rival restaurateur, Pascal, none of whose hungers could be Satan. There you go.

2:11:20Josh Larsen:How about Aviv in LA? First of all, how dare you impugn the accents in Campbell Scott and Stanley Tucci's Big Night, a film I recommend to just about everyone I meet. The long-take scene where Tucci simply makes and eats an omelet is mesmerizing in a way that I still can't quite verbalize. The connection to this week's episode is obviously Ewan McGregor's pretty lousy American accent in the end of Oak Street, which, like Shalhoub's Italian, falls deep into the uncanny valley of accent work. Or maybe it's just bad. It could also have something to do with chefs who are for one reason or another way out of their depth.

2:11:53Josh Larsen:I think the Anthony Bourdain equivalent to Louis Prima coming to his restaurant would be the New York Dolls coming to Provincetown for a nice seafood dinner. And who could forget the psychosexual scene between Tucci and Shalhoub amid all their dipping sauces clearly paid homage in Camp Miasma. Anyway, keep up the good work. For the past 18 months, I've been listening on my morning hikes with my dog. He is also a fan. Yeah. And if you've sent a picture with Chubbs, I'm assuming Chubbs is the aforementioned dog. That is correct.

2:12:25Adam Kempenaar:So Josh, you get to reach into the aforementioned brimming hat and pick out this week's winner. Our winner is Liam McKenzie from Richmond, Vermont. Congratulations, Liam. You get to email us and claim your very own film spotting t-shirt, tote bag, or trial membership to the film spotting family. Would the detours so simple? Would the detours so simple? Would the detours so simple? Would the detours so simple? My dear boy, why do you say that? Why do you say twer? Well, you say it like I said. We move on out of this week's edition of Massacre Theatre. And yes, as usual, there are some layers here in terms of why producer Sam suggested this scene.

2:13:12Adam Kempenaar:but we usually come up with just a couple layers and the listeners, Josh are always smarter than us and we'll see what they come back with.

2:13:20Josh Larsen:I'm sure they will find many other layers. I'm just grateful. The timing of this is working out well because we're two hours into recording and my part requires a weariness, weariness at its end. So it's, it's really working out for me here.

2:13:40Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. That won't be tough to embody at all, will it? Okay. You start it off. I'm going to give you the action and action. Edgar just wants to help, you know. Thinks the world of you. He shouldn't worship me the way he does. I'm not who he thinks I am. Few of us ever are. All right. We're here. tail section quarantine section prison section gate gate gate four seconds when all three gates are open at once we have four seconds to go through three gates and bust Nam out that Nam gets us

2:14:22Josh Larsen:the rest of the way our fate depends on this man yeah if we can get him

2:14:28Adam Kempenaar:to cooperate he can take us all the way to the front of the train and

2:14:33Josh Larsen:and scene scene wow i mean i i know i had some help there but i feel like pretty good performance by me yeah

2:14:42Adam Kempenaar:i think you did all right i i didn't notice any kind of accent really whatsoever oh really no

2:14:48Josh Larsen:not really i mean maybe i pulled back after after doing yeah big night i felt like i had to pull

2:14:56Adam Kempenaar:back too far pulled back a little bit maybe a little bit too far i just went for as bland as I could possibly be, and that wasn't tough. And I like this actor. Don't get me wrong, but this scene, there's not a lot happening. Okay? No. If you know what...

2:15:08Josh Larsen:He brought a little bit more, but you know, he's... You think? He's a professional.

2:15:14Adam Kempenaar:I would hope so, Josh. If you know what film we just massacre, email the movie's title, your name, and location to feedback at filmspotting.net. The deadline is Monday, September 14th. We will select the winner randomly from all the correct entries and announce it in a couple of weeks. Josh. That's our show.

2:15:31Josh Larsen:That's our show. If you want to connect with Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook, Letterboxd, YouTube, Blue Sky, he's at FilmSpotting. I'm at Larson on Film. We're independently produced and listener supported. You can support the show by joining the FilmSpotting family at FilmSpottingFamily.com. You can listen early and add free. You'll get monthly bonus episodes, a weekly newsletter, and access to the entire show archive. For show t-shirts and other merch, go to FilmSpotting.net slash shop.

2:15:59Adam Kempenaar:out streaming or VOD this weekend. You can see Mayday, the latest from the director of Game Night and Dungeons and Dragons, Honor Among Thieves. This stars Ryan Reynolds and Kenneth Branagh. It's on Apple. Plus, Teenage Wasteland.

2:16:14Josh Larsen:Please tell me that SVU is on this case.

2:16:17Adam Kempenaar:Oh, Josh.

2:16:18Josh Larsen:Yes, it's just ahead.

2:16:20Adam Kempenaar:They are.

2:16:21Josh Larsen:How have I not heard of this one? I know.

2:16:23Adam Kempenaar:I know. A US Navy pilot? Cold War? Trap behind enemy lines? Come on.

2:16:28Josh Larsen:Well, Game Night, one of the comedy classics of the last, what, 10 or so years. And Dungeons and Dragons, really funny as well. I'm assuming this is humor to it.

2:16:38Adam Kempenaar:Jonathan Goldstein, John Francis Daly, they're back with Mayday. And yes, SVU is on the case. Teenage Wasteland is the new doc from Amanda McBain and Jesse Moss, who did Boy State and Girl State. This does sound fascinating about a group of 90s high school students who made a student film that uncovered a vast conspiracy that was poisoning their community. That's on Netflix. In limited release, Josh, you recommended Filipinana, which is at the Gene Siskel Film Center and other select cities around the country. In wide release, you can see By Any Means, starring Mark Wahlberg and Yahya Abdul-Mateen, as well as Onslaught, starring Adria Arjona as an army sniper who must unleash hell when a rogue squad of genetically engineered super soldiers threatens her daughter.

2:17:24Adam Kempenaar:It's directed by Adam Wingard, the director of Godzilla vs. Kong. And you're next. On Monday, in the Film Spotting feed, you will get the new edition of Movie Deathmatch. It's concert films. Stop Making Sense vs. The Last Waltz. You can't miss that. Tuesday, Film Spotting SVU. Yes, Mayday on Apple+. Hear what Matt Singer and Jordan Hoffman have to say about that film. On Thursday, you'll get a new edition of The Next Picture Show. I don't have their exact pairing. I don't know if it's set for sure, Josh, at this point, but I do know that Genevieve and company were kicking around It Ends, which was recommended last week here on Film Spotting and Tarkovsky's Solaris.

2:18:09Adam Kempenaar:Wow.

2:18:10Josh Larsen:Yeah. Okay. That gives me pause, which means if they go that route, it'll probably be a great episode.

2:18:16Adam Kempenaar:Indeed. Friday on Film Spotting, with Tim Curry's passing, we were thinking about, and Halloween approaching a blind cow review of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. It is indeed a blind cow because I have never seen the Rocky Horror Picture Show. It is time, I think.

2:18:33Josh Larsen:Yeah, it's definitely time. Do listeners feel the same? Is it leading the poll for FilmSpotting family members?

2:18:38Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, we sent it out to FilmSpotting family members because we were also considering T2, Terminator 2 Judgment Day, since that's out for its 35th anniversary. And as we sit here at At this moment, Josh, it is a case where fairly decisively. Well, yeah, 58 % to 42%. Okay. The Rocky Horror Picture Show. And I did see a listener, and I'm sorry, I'm blanking on who said it, who maybe gave the best justification for Rocky Horror, which was with Curry's passing, it's the best time to do the Rocky Horror Picture Show. and there will be other occasions to talk about Terminator 2. Right. Yep. So I think that probably does justify it now.

2:19:24Adam Kempenaar:I don't know if you saw this quick on-air production meeting. In the FilmSpottingFamily Discord, there were some people talking about the fact that maybe we needed to put into the poll question Coyote versus Acme. Hmm. I do want to see it very much. So maybe we're missing something by not doing that film.

2:19:44Josh Larsen:Maybe one or both of us.

2:19:46Adam Kempenaar:could sneak into a coyote versus Acme screening and we cover that as well. Stay tuned. Visit filmspotting.net slash episodes for the schedule. Once we have it all sorted out.

2:19:58Josh Larsen:Film spotting is produced by Golden Joe Dissot and Sam Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Ariana Martinez is our marketing and social media assistant. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening. This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

2:20:36I am talking to a felon right now with face tattoos, and I cannot decide if I like him or not. That was a caller from my podcast, Therapy Gecko, where I speak with anonymous callers about their problems, relationships, and anything else in the depths of their mind. It all happens on my show, Therapy Gecko. So if you're trying to get out of your own head and into someone else's, this is the podcast for you. Listen to Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What up? This is Jay Valentine, co-host of the R &B Money Podcast, alongside my brother, R &B legend Tank.

2:21:13Together, we've built a space for artists, executives, and fans of R &B music to reminisce and tell the real stories behind the music. I have no money. I was hood famous. They think you're going to get everybody out. We lived in a project. Real Love came out. They're hearing the music and we had nothing. From Smokey Robinson to Mary J. Blige, B2K to Jill Scott, if you're a super dedicated R &B fan, this is where you belong. Listen to R &B Money from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Bobby Bones. Join me and former NFL quarterback Matt Castle every Wednesday on our podcast, Lots to Say, with me, Bobby Bones, and Matt Castle.

2:21:52You're in training camp, and the rookie quarterback has one good throwing session in front of the media. Suddenly, everybody online says he should start over you week one. How do you handle this?

2:22:01Adam Kempenaar:You just go back out to practice the next day and wait for them to mess up. Listen to Lots to Say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From daily news to dating fails, conspiracy theories to cooking with celebrities who can't actually cook, Amazon Music's got the most ad-free top podcasts ready to entertain, included with Prime.