Spider-Man (2002) | Archive

14:46Josh Larsen:Number three would be this exchange. You're taller than you look. I hunch. don't just the economy of that how much work do those three lines do david kopp screenwriter of course here uh number two the whole trying out his powers sequence and this is the one where it was like oh man am i wearing my underoos like i might be wearing my underoos still right just just the mcguire's enthusiasm and going back to ramey's camera you know ramey has always had i think we We talked about Evil Dead at some point on the show, maybe for a Halloween-themed episode. And I was a little cooler on it than most people are, just that the camera always had to be doing something.

15:30Josh Larsen:And what I like about Spider-Man is that he chooses the right moments for the camera to do something, and that whole sequence is where you get it. And then I'll just say it, and we can dive into it later. I want to hear your scenes as well, but the upside-down kiss, that's number one. Yeah.

15:44Adam Kempenaar:So the last two you mentioned are my top two, and I have them just in reverse order. I'm going with the kiss number two, the upside down kiss in the rain, and then number one, discovering his powers. And we can get into those a little more. I think I want to say up front here that we're going to be pretty comfortable spoiling this movie. We're going to assume that most of you listening have seen this film. And if you haven't, I'm not going to say 90 % of our review is going to be spoilers. But still, you should maybe skip ahead until you have actually seen this movie. So do you want me to just go in order?

16:21Adam Kempenaar:Do you want me to give you five through three for me? Yeah, run them down. You didn't mention them. And they all get it different aspects of the film that I really appreciate. My number five, and this is one that you will not find on any list out there of the best Spider-Man scenes ever. But on rewatch, just made me cackle almost the way Willem Dafoe cackles as the Green Goblin. It's the Thanksgiving scene where he's about to cut into the turkey, but then Aunt May sets down that casserole or whatever, and he can't help himself. Norman Osborn reaches his finger in to get a bite before it's served.

17:05Adam Kempenaar:Oh, yeah. Aunt May admonishes him. So Aunt May admonishing an ornery Osborn is my number five. And I love it so much because of Defoe's response. the way he looks at her, which is with that devilish grin that suggests not only am I a little bit unhappy that you did that, I actually want to jam this knife in right now. Like that is exactly what he is thinking at that moment. And it takes everything he has within him playing the normal Norman to restrain himself and not do it. And the way Ramey lingers on that. So we have to be in that space. And Aunt May is even kind of looking at him. Rosemary Harris, very good performance here as well, is looking at him and continues to kind of talk almost like this is a joke, right?

17:56Adam Kempenaar:But he doesn't really look like he's joking. And I think that scene is fantastic. And I think it does get at how good Defoe is in this film overall. Maybe tangent just for a second. You mentioned Raimi and you were excited about that at the time. I don't know if I was a good enough cinephile in 2002 to really think in those terms. In fact, I know I wasn't because I went back and looked at my review and I at least admitted that, you know, I had seen the evil dead once, but mostly watched it through my hands because it scared me so much as a junior high kid. And I definitely didn't feel like I could speak in any terms about Raimi as an auteur.

18:37Adam Kempenaar:So that was something that was lost on me completely back in 02. And this time you could see some of those horror elements really come through, including in those Green Goblin scenes where he is by himself talking to himself. Those are legitimately creepy. And it takes an actor of Defoe's caliber to make them work and to make them as sinister and creepy as they actually are. I also really like that scene, Josh, because that moment with Aunt May and it closes with an exchange between Harry and Kirsten Dunst, Mary Jane as well. It gets at something this film is dealing with, which is masculinity.

19:17Adam Kempenaar:masculinity. Something that definitely wasn't a prism I was watching movies through 20 years ago, but that look he gives Aunt May is a look he would give anybody who's sort of standing in his way of anything, but I think it's heightened by the fact that she's a woman. Thanks for sticking up for me, Harry. You heard?

19:38Josh Larsen:Everyone heard that creep.

19:40Adam Kempenaar:The creep is my father, all right? If I'm lucky, I'll become half of what he is. So just keep your mouth shut about stuff you don't understand. Harry Osborn.

19:49Josh Larsen:Very fair to call James Franco's Harry toxic. Exactly. How about when he's approving MJ's dress for meeting his father? Worried about if he'll find her pretty.

20:01Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, there's a lot of nasty stuff like this in here. There is. I mean, the movie is filled with bad guys. And I don't mean bad guys like villains, though there's villains here, too. It's full of bad guys doing bad things. My number four is here's where we really get into spoilers. It's the end or that scene right before the final swing and the Empire State Building shot. It's the scene at the cemetery for Norman Osborn. And it's the choice Peter makes, which I, of course, completely remembered. I knew that that's how it ended with this kind of crushing. Oh, he wants her so badly and now she wants him so badly.

20:44Adam Kempenaar:And is he actually going to say no? Is he actually going to do what he thinks he has to do, accepting his role, accepting his responsibility? And he's going to give up on happiness. He's going to give up on love, give up on MJ. And he does. And when he does, because we're invested enough in this story and these characters, when he does it, it crushes you. But what I forgot is that touch as he walks away where we get MJ's recognition that Peter is Spider-Man. And that's a case of the screenplay and the direction having it both ways, but I think in a really good, successful way. Oh, yeah. And all set up by that kiss, right?

21:28Adam Kempenaar:That's it. We understand his sacrifice. And since we see the movie through his eyes, we feel the weight of it. Like we know something Spider-Man doesn't. And he will continue to go through life into that second film not knowing what she knows. And so we'll continue to have that hanging over him. But the fact that we as an audience know that she really knows somehow does soften it while also putting it back on her in a way. She has to maintain the secret and she has to wrestle with why he's making that decision. So I love that that choice and specifically MJ's recognition. So then I'll get to here the last one before the two you mentioned.

22:11Adam Kempenaar:I think that that bridge fight showdown is really spectacular. and it's another choice, right? Where Spider-Man has to make one and he gets to have it both ways. He successfully, again, manages to save both all of those kids and all of those New Yorkers on the cable car and he also gets to save MJ. But it's a moment that not only just has great action and despite there clearly being some CGI, this whole film uses practical effects and stunts to such good effect that nothing really about that sequence really feels false or artificial at all. And it keeps it contained. It's not just about chaos and destruction like these movies so often devolve into.

22:58Adam Kempenaar:And what I think that sequence also encapsulates is the DNA of superhero movies that came before it and that came after it. It gets it right. It's all there on the screen where I'm sure most people were watching it and hearing his line where Defoe says something like, you know, if you're a hero, you're a good person. You're moral. At some point, a lunatic is going to force you into making a difficult choice. And I'm thinking about Heath Ledger's The Joker and The Dark Knight and The Ships, you know. And I feel like that DNA, that blueprint, as I said, is there for those movies that came, but also many of those ones that came before.

23:40Adam Kempenaar:It has the sensibility of a Donner Superman and of Burton's Batman at times versus going for total realism. There is a sense of humor. There is a lightness to it, a sweetness. The camp factor is in play in some scenes and just the right amount, I would say. And while that's the big showdown that any of these action movies are leading to, how about the fact that the final brawl is just that? it's a mano a mano fight between two characters where you have a reveal you know that peter is now having to be responsible for even though he doesn't actually commit it himself be responsible for the death of a man he actually admires and it's it's just hand-to-hand combat it's not at all 4 000 characters on screen and you're trying to keep up with the action and you feel it you feel the intensity of that fight and the intimacy of it.

25:03Adam Kempenaar:where your story starts.

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25:39Adam Kempenaar:Nothing to be afraid of.

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26:59Josh Larsen:please sounds like another perfect match from the grand team shop grand appliance.com if i prefer the one that you made as your pick which i think is right it's probably because it's free of the sort of i mean the thing i talk about when it comes to the the mcu films the punch plosions right they're they're punching each other through walls and that mano a mano and i agree with you that it's personal. And so it works on that level. But what I really like about your pick sequence on the bridge is that it's a confrontation, but it's more about acrobatics and the choices you're talking about. And is he going to be able to hang on to this?

27:38Josh Larsen:Is he going to be able to spin around quickly enough? Those are the things that we're worried about. Not really, how hard is this next punch going to be? Okay. How hard is the next punch going to be? Okay. how hard is the next punch? You know, that's where a lot of superhero and I would say more of the DCEU films actually had this way, where we're just more invested in the brute strength. And that sequence you picked is about so many other things, which is why I think it's such a highlight.

28:07Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, I agree. So then let's talk a little bit more about the two scenes you mentioned that are atop my list as well, because that upside down kiss in the rain is probably the most iconic moment from this film. And for good reason, it's enjoyable on some level, cinematically, the same way all of these scenes we're discussing are. But in terms of what that scene expresses about what works about this film overall, yes, there is this sweetness that we've mentioned, the wholesomeness and innocence of this film overall. But think about this film and that relationship in comparison to the superhero movies we get today that are so, well, they're not only sexless, but they don't express anything that even resembles any sexual heat.

29:00Adam Kempenaar:There is no sensuality to these films whatsoever. And here we absolutely get it. It it doesn't shy away from Kirsten Dunst character playing MJ as probably the quote unquote hottest girl in school and in a way that doesn't make it to this male anyway feel to male gazey. You know, she's she's thirsting for Spider-Man. She makes the moves. She makes the move with Peter. She's in control. And back to the masculinity point, when she's mistreated by Harry, when she hears the conversation between Harry and Norman and he doesn't defend her at all, she calls him out on it. But there's sensuality in the exchange you mentioned, that line.

29:46Adam Kempenaar:That's all subtext for the actual heat that is starting to emerge between these two people. That great bit of dialogue you mentioned where he says that he hunches and she tells him not to. You know what's starting to come through there. And then in that kiss, it's a hot kiss. We get nothing like that in any other superhero movie of recent vintage I can think of, Josh.

30:12Josh Larsen:Well, Adam, that's because you missed the Eternals where, or just Eternals, I think I should say, where, you know, Marvel really, really moved into that. No, I'm just joking. It's there. There is a sex scene, but it is kind of doesn't really work. Yes, you're right about the hotness of it. And it's something that I wondered watching at this time is if this came from a comic book, you know, was this an image that was well known to Spider-Man fans? Was it invented for the movie? Was it in the script? So did a little Googling and actually The Ringer just published something today. I was reading at lunch.

30:46Josh Larsen:So this was perfect. Works out great for us. It's by Jake Kring, Shreefels, Shreefels, not sure how to pronounce that, but basically when Mary Jane Kiss Spider-Man is what it's titled. We'll link to it in the show notes because there's so many great details here, but just briefly turns out the basic idea came from Doug Leffler, who was the movie's second unit director and storyboard artist. he had staged scenes with characters upside down in his previous work as a TV director. So not necessarily kisses, but just this idea of having two characters in the frame, one of them upside down. So Leffler presented some sketches to Ramey.

31:22Josh Larsen:Ramey loved it. And then producer Laura Ziskin actually is the one who suggested the crucial element of having MJ pull down his mask just enough to reveal the lips. So all of that comes together to make this moment that I agree is legitimately iconic. And again, we'll link to that in the show notes on, on the ringer, but it's wonderful in so many ways. The ones you described, I like how it just uses the mask and you can sense that it's a real mass, you know, there's no CGI here either on his face. It's something that is actually wet that has to be pulled down. I think that adds a lot to it. going back to my Naperville Sun review you know I'm skeptical about puns Adam but I did pull one out I think I think this was me might have been our great JJ our great copy desk chief but swinging in the rain not bad right the headline for my review in 2002 yeah and you pretty proud of that one you're okay with puns and titles right or headlines titles and headlines that's what you save them for you have a knack for getting in trouble you have a knack for saving my life I think I have a superhero stalker.

32:29Josh Larsen:I was in the neighborhood. You are amazing.

32:36Adam Kempenaar:Some people don't think so.

32:40Josh Larsen:But you are.

32:42Adam Kempenaar:Nice to have a fan. Do I get to say thank you this time?

32:50Wait.

32:50Josh Larsen:So yeah, this is a wonderful moment and it makes me think of a question I want to get your take on, do you think it was smart? It sounds like you do. And maybe you don't see it this way, but for this Spider-Man to frame itself first and foremost as a romance. So rather than an action movie, rather even than an origin story, you know, you have that opening voiceover. We're told this is about a girl. That's what this is about. We get so many scenes to their developing relationship and chemistry. Sounds like you're with me agreeing that McGuire and Dunst are very good, especially together. And you already talked about that note it ends on.

33:25Josh Larsen:It's all about she doesn't know, but she does. And she knows that because of the kiss. So you're with me. It sounds like that that was a good move is to kind of frame it that way.

33:35Adam Kempenaar:I mean, I think it's what ultimately does make the movie special. It's why we're still talking about it 20 years later. It's not because it gets the action right, though that's part of it. It's not that it's fun and all of these elements that we've been discussing. It's part of it, but I think really at its core, it's because we respond to those characters so much and we respond to that central love story. But overall, I think that's also indicative of what generally works about this movie and you touched on it a little bit earlier. It is that it is self-contained. That's the right word for it.

34:10Adam Kempenaar:It does have some intimacy in a lot of these scenes. You do feel as if all of the action revolves around these four or five central characters, though, ironically, it's also a movie that gets right, the fact that it takes place in New York, and you feel as if there are real people living lives in the city. In contrast to, I'll say it, and I like many of these Marvel movies. We say this all the time. We've reviewed some of them very favorably on the show, but they have so many characters in it, and there's so much going on that you don't really ever get the sense that they exist in a real world, you know, or that there's stakes that affect real people.

34:49Adam Kempenaar:It tries to build that and oftentimes succeeds in the relationships between those characters, but not on the scale that a movie like this Spider-Man does. And the fact that you've got just this universe of characters, everything that's happening from a plot standpoint, from a story standpoint, from a thematic standpoint, all ties back to the characters and characters that you either care about or are really curious about. And they all have depth to them. I mean, yes, this is a movie about a teen-ish grappling with changes and grappling with responsibility and what it means to be a man. But he's also, at the end of the day, protecting the people he loves and the city he loves from a bad guy.

35:40Adam Kempenaar:And even that bad guy is someone that he has a personal connection to. So I think that heart is at the heart of what makes Spider-Man so good.

35:49Josh Larsen:So should we turn to your favorite, the getting to know his powers, getting to learn his powers sequence? Because for me, I think what this does, it sort of combines two of the great things about the movie. It's Raimi's skills as a filmmaker and Maguire's abilities as a performer for this part in particular. I talked about the camera work and how about the movement as Peter starts crawling up that brick wall in the alley, right? We're looking down at him and it kind of just slides alongside of him and then watches him. It's a perfect example of waiting for your moment and then really going for it and putting us in that experience.

36:33Josh Larsen:And then even when we get, you know, Spider-Man swinging around and it's a little more clumsy as it should be in these opening sequences. I'd like the patience Ramey has for widescreen compositions for a lot of the action. This isn't edited to death. Right. And you get a little bit of that here. I think you get more of it as Peter's more confident in his abilities. And we're just kind of taking in the skyline that he's swinging through without having to have it be chopped up in so many edits. So I like Raimi's camera work and filmmaking prowess here, but also Maguire. I mean, he, you know, is it just nostalgia that I think he's the best Spider-Man we have?

37:11Josh Larsen:I really like Tom Holland, you know, Andrew Garfield, those films just, they never quite worked for me. And as much as I like him as an actor, it didn't seem like the greatest fit. But Maguire here gets the nerdiness down, which I think is the most important quality for this character. I love his froggy smile when he doesn't open his mouth and it just kind of like starts spreading, but he's not going to fully commit because it's that little bit of insecurity that he brings. And going back to your pick, this enthusiasm he has for his powers, just the excitement he's expressing, the fun. How fun would it be to be Spider-Man?

37:49Josh Larsen:No one ever really thought it would be fun to be Batman when you were a kid. You know, it seemed maybe the TV show. Okay. Yeah. Utility belt. Pretty cool. But, you know, the comic Batman, the more intense, traumatized Batman, Spider-Man seemed like it would be great fun. And that's what McGuire taps into in this opening sequence or this early sequence, I should say.

38:11Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, for sure. I remember having that same feeling you described in the theater when I saw it in 2002. And I had a similar feeling watching it again. And I think it's for all the reasons that you express. I'll also say that it's another one of those scenes that gets back to the point about the DNA of what attracts us to superhero movies in the first place and what the best ones do and do well. It makes me think of Donner's Superman in particular and a younger Clark Kent discovering his powers and having some fun running along the train, kicking the football, doing some of those different things that he does.

38:52Adam Kempenaar:We see that here in the scene with Peter Parker and the montage. I'll get away from the scene a little bit, but it follows pretty quickly as he starts to accept his responsibility. That montage of him thwarting various crimes. That's something you see in Batman, too. You probably see in every superhero movie, at least every origin story to an extent. But here you've got that playfulness about it. As Sophie said, unlike watching the Batman movies, and she likes those Nolan movies, too. but it never feels like a drag. In fact, it feels really fun as you watch those scenes here. And I think this is the most fun scene in the film.

39:31Adam Kempenaar:And I think at its core, to go back to where we started, it's the scene that encapsulates everything that drew us to Spider-Man in the first place as kids. It is both the fantasy and the imagination part, the part where he gets to do things above and beyond his normal capabilities, but it also has him failing. It has him learning. It has him having to figure things out. And so that same part of us where, you know, you were climbing on the stairs a certain way, you probably fell, you know, you're climbing up the side of the stairs. Your mom told you not to, but you think you're being just like Spider-Man.

40:10Adam Kempenaar:What are you doing? Get down. Yeah. The first time you fall, just like he does here, right? But then you figure it out. And in your mind, you're Spider-Man. It's all there.

40:23Josh Larsen:It's so right. All right. So one more thing for sure I wanted to touch on. Just because there was so much talk about turning red, you know, and female adolescence and puberty. And are we really going to have a movie about menstruation? You know, a lot of people, including us, I think, appreciated that sort of honesty and that freshness. And other people were like, I can't believe this is happening in a movie for kids. I mean, this thing is a puberty parable. is pretty incredible, right? Uncle Ben mentioning very early on hormones, teenagers to Aunt May, Peter alone in his room, dealing with sticky substances.

41:00Josh Larsen:And it goes beyond the physical changes, right? It also marks the relationship, the relational changes that happen during those years are really sort of, and again, this is probably because I'm an older parent at this point, but how about the moment where he and Uncle Ben are, you know, they're clearly have a good connection here together. And Cliff Robertson is Uncle Ben, of course, wonderful performance. And, um, they, you're talking about painting when he comes home from school, we're going to paint, I think it's the kitchen or whatever, right? Sure thing. That is what the afternoon he get, he discovers his powers and goes on the exact sequence we were just talking about.

41:40Josh Larsen:That's the joy ride. That's taking out the car with your friends, forgetting what you promised the person in your life who your responsibility cares about you, who cares about you. Right. And to me, it was just like, oh, and then what do you get the little, the note about his supper is still, you know, no, like waiting for him to come home and screaming him out just to know your supper is still waiting for you. And you don't get the sense. It's like a guilt trip thing either. It's, they wanted to make sure he ate. So all of that, I think is tied into this as a puberty parable is just charting, you know, some nods to the physical changes, but also noticing the relational element as well.

42:17Yeah.

42:17Adam Kempenaar:Well, even the last thing he says to him, his rebuke is something you can imagine that he'd never probably said to him before and wouldn't have said to him prior. He's accepted him as his father his entire life. And yet post change, as he's dealing with this and post his transformation, now he's standing up to him, if you will, and saying, well, you're not my father and gets out of the car. So that that relationship element between the adults, between the parents in this case and the son is very much at play. I do think it's something that works about the film. I don't think it's a big shock either.

42:58Adam Kempenaar:If you recall, I think I think that Ramey deals with to go back turning red menstruation as a very dominant metaphor, all the blood that's happening in Evil Dead. He's playing with similar ideas in that film as he is here in Spider-Man. But you're right. The fact that that moment where he says, don't come in, I'm not dressed. And then he turns around and there's there's webs everywhere. I mean, that's that's hilarious. And the fact that he's he's generating these substances by himself, the verses. And of course, they talk about this in No Way Home. the fact that he can produce that substance on his own versus it being something that he has to actually manufacture.

43:45Adam Kempenaar:I do like that touch for all the reasons that you articulated. There's still a part of me, too, that kind of puts that in the funny camp factor of the film as well. Because as I alluded to earlier, he's 18 or something, right? Like he's about to graduate high school. Well. And they talk about him like he's 14. and just going through it.

44:08Josh Larsen:Well, we're definitely still in the era of like clearly 38-year-olds playing teenagers when it comes to like Flash in the bullying scenes.

44:16Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, Joe Manganiello.

44:18Josh Larsen:That's Joe Manganiello in his first ever screen performance. Wow. Unrecognizable. I did not catch that. Yeah, you're wondering if Flash is, is Flash like his classmate or is it Grandparents Day? Not quite sure. Exactly.

44:33Adam Kempenaar:Well, we obviously had fun with Spider-Man And if you have seen the film recently, it's available to rent on most platforms. You may also find a 2002 era DVD at your local library. We'd love to hear your thoughts. You can email us feedback at filmspotting.net.

44:57Adam Kempenaar:More Spider-Man talk coming on Friday with our top five Spider-Man scenes. we will have to wait in suspense to find out, Josh, whether or not any of those moments make your list. I can't wait.

45:12Josh Larsen:Just as long as I didn't say something the opposite. It's really got me worried now. Access to the Film Spotting Archive is just one of the benefits of joining the Film Spotting family. You also get bonus shows, weekly newsletter, early access to events and more to join, which you can do right now for 20 % off using the code SUMMER. go to filmspottingfamily.com.

45:34Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

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46:19Josh Larsen:Now more than ever, America needs a laugh. Enter the Super Troopers to the rescue. Vermont's finest and most shockingly offensive mustachioed highway patrol officers return to the big screen. in Super Troopers 3. With more pullover pranks and more over-the-top shenanigans than ever. In this latest installment of the cult comedy classic, Rod Farva's wildly over-the-top Indian engagement to Thorny's sister spirals out of control, a debaucherous bachelor party, a wedding that Thorny is desperate to stop, and a dangerous drug smuggling ring all threaten the troops' friendships and future. Fill your leader of cola, grab your buds, and roll up to the multiplex for Super Troopers 3.

46:58Josh Larsen:Only in theaters August 7th. Get tickets, meow. Okay, laundry stinks, literally. I mean, you could just keep buying new underwear. Not that I've ever done that. Or maybe sort your clothes into piles based on how re-wearable or filthy they are.

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