Steven Soderbergh's The Christophers

22:16He is sufficiently successful as that. I was like, Oh, men in black, he wrote men in black, which, you know which is a good movie that's a good blockbuster very funny the jokes the jokes hit you know but um the uh just the extent to which things are explained and not explained here i feel is is perfectly judged like it's sort of to the extent that i initially i was like when julian sklar says he has been canceled and he and laurie have a conversation about that i'm thinking you know so has he actually been or is just just this uh you know someone who resents the fact that they're not at the center of the culture in the way that they once were.

22:54I mean, I think we come to, again, I'm being cagey here because some of this is spoilery, but I inferred that it was really just his public nastiness, you know, and the kind of caricature of a snob that he played on this reality show that eventually turned on him and made the public loose interest, but nothing darker or worse than that. And I bring that up because he does have a line early on where Laurie shows up and he's in his dressing gown and he asks if she minds. And she says, yeah, I do. And he says, Weinstein ruined the bathrobe for all of us or something like that. See, I miss that.

23:35Adam Kempenaar:Sometimes there are lines like that, especially whatever it is with my ears when British people speak that I just don't always catch. And I didn't catch that one. But yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's nothing like there's nothing Weinstein level in his sins. And, you know, it really becomes that again, I'm being very cautious here about how much to. But as we learn, you know, the origins of why these paintings are called the Christophers and who that was. Sklar starts when he eventually lets his guard down and confides in Laurie. You know, he talks about this, this failed relationship and he says, I ruined his life.

24:18I said, I think I ruined his life. No, I know I ruined his life. And I mean, you know, breakups are painful, but, uh, ruined his life. Like what, uh, you know, what do you mean? How bad can it be? And we really don't get any more information about the dissolution of this relationship than, than that. We don't.

24:38Adam Kempenaar:But I think what you're potentially getting at here and how you started this point is that we get enough. We get enough of a sense. The movie tells us as much as we need to know. And it's there not only in the writing, but in the performance. And that brings me to Cole. We're going to get a double dose of her here. And in fact, it may be back to back for me because I haven't seen Mother Mary yet. It was back to back for me because I saw the Christopher's a second time the night after I saw Mother Mary. And the way these two movies are accidentally in conversation with one another fascinates me.

25:16Adam Kempenaar:OK, I can see that based on the trailer for Mother Mary, which I saw for the first time right before I saw this film last night. I haven't seen Chewing Gum or I May Destroy You. This this movie was my introduction to Michaela Cole. So it was a discovery and it was, if there was ever a face, a face that feels like it, it was somehow like ripped out of a portrait gallery into real life. It's Michaela Coles. It's so, you cannot imagine there being a bad angle from which she cannot be photographed. She just has this perfect bone structure that, uh, you, you have to adjust to it for a moment. Like it's so, yeah, like a luminous, like for it to stop it.

26:00And then she starts speaking and she's such a great actor that then you just lock into the character.

26:05Adam Kempenaar:Or not speaking. And that's the wonder of this performance. I think it's the silences where maybe she's even doing her best work. And that's what makes her such a foil for McKellen's Julian here. She is so composed. She's so still. She's so observant. And she studies Julian not like a painter, which he is, right, or was, but like a painting. That's how I feel like she is looking at him. And it makes sense as we learn more about her character that she actually would observe him that way and be almost scientifically examining him. And we know a little bit, as I was saying, we know a little bit about what she thinks of him coming into their first meeting and why she's doing this.

26:50Adam Kempenaar:As more information gets revealed, though, that gets so much more complex. And so that that does increase our interest in watching her watch him because we're more and more wondering what she's thinking, how she's judging him or not judging him, how she's actually interested. or not interested in all of the things he's revealing, what she agrees with or maybe doesn't agree with. And also just what level of a mind screw that it is here. I'll I'll say the disclaimer about not revealing too much, but I think we can say when someone that to borrow a phrase from the movie, when someone you've both revered and reviled is not just interacting with you, but revealing their true self to you.

27:44Adam Kempenaar:And I think that Soderbergh does something really smart in their first interaction, which is this interview, when this faux interview where she's trying to get the job of being an assistant. An interview where she is barely allowed to speak. Yes. She basically says nothing. And he, because he just pontificates the entire time, and he finally leaves the room after this whirlwind of five to seven minutes of just talking the whole time, asking her questions, not letting her answer. When he leaves the room, finally, she lets out this sigh and she kind of goes to the floor almost, you know, her head almost goes into her knees.

28:22Adam Kempenaar:And it's, it's this exaltation that, that speaks for the audience too. Like this whirlwind has finally left the room, but what it does, Chris, what I remember feeling in the moment was it told us that, okay, that composure, at least here, that was, that was at least in part a performance that, that she was. And of course it was because she's acting like she's interested in being an assistant, but she was having to steady herself and put on a face to meet, to meet his face. And so then after that, every time she's looking at him, every time, at least up until there's a little bit more connection between them.

29:01Adam Kempenaar:We have to wonder, is this real Laurie who's looking at him or is this assistant Laurie who's looking at him? And so it keeps us on our toes. Yeah. And I mean, the fact that, again, in true Soderbergh fashion, you know, Laurie's a little bit of a rascal too. I mean, we do come to find out that she has partake you know she's certainly not the most conniving character even in this movie you know but i mean she's uh she's got some ill-gotten gains you know she she cops to having forged some paintings and you know and that that's kind of as um you know as is also discussed in the aforementioned f for fake like uh you know that's that's sort of justified in the sense well the entire art world is inflated and fraudulent and the you know the dealers and the galleries and like everybody knows that it's it's this you know ridiculous kind of kind of rigged system and we're just trying to allow the people who actually create art to keep as much as they can.

29:54Without getting too much into Mother Mary, since I know you haven't seen it yet, I just want to point out that everything that you described Cole and the character of Laurie of doing is kind of the part that Anne Hathaway has in Mother Mary, which is why I am so fascinated by this. I mean, they're both movies where Michaela Cole is playing someone who is in the orbit of a once great artist who has fallen on hard times. Yes. But this is the film, The Christophers is the film where McKellen gets most of the great speeches, although Cole does get a very good one that I want to talk about. And she's mostly reacting.

30:34And that dynamic is entirely reversed in Mother Mary, where Cole does more of the talking. And there's a lot of Anne Hathaway who, you know, then in the concert sequences gets to be the focus. But she's mostly just reacting to what Cole is doing. So just having these movies out at the same time is telling.

30:54Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, yeah. No, I can, now that you're saying all of that, think about, as I said, the trailer, and I can see that dynamic at play where she, Hathaway, is studying the Cole character the way I'm describing, right? So now you've got me even more interested in seeing Mother Mary. It seems to have been very divisive. I heard from a lot of people after the screening who thought it was, I mean, I, again, we can cut this if it's not relevant, but I was higher on it than a lot of the people I saw it with. Well, that's promising. Let's talk about or at least talk around the scene that you were alluding to there.

31:30Adam Kempenaar:I said there were three scenes that may get a mention at the end of the year. We have a lot of year left. And one of them was the moving contender. Don't leave me funniest moment. This is a comedy. After all, there are a lot of potential options. You said one of them that that went by me. Do you have any idea what line and really it's three words might be my contender for funniest moment. And this might be a hint. If you if you know the three words, I'll let you say them because I'm not going to say them on air. And I know just just because Midnight Run is still in the pantheon, you know, I want to say here's three words for you.

32:07Shut the fuck up. But but I'm not going to. No, I don't. Yeah, you won't. Of course. I don't have a three word candidate.

32:15Adam Kempenaar:It's the moment. I'll tell you the moment, even if I'm not going to use the words. Exactly. It's the moment when the children, again, played by James Corden, and I want to make sure I get the daughter right, Jessica Gunning. It's a line by Jessica Gunning. They're very frustrated with Laurie at this point. and and gunning calls her a three-word phrase the middle word is pig yep the words around it are a certain c word that is forbidden for us as americans to say that that british people have no problem being very there's actually a joke about that in the previous season of hacks where a character says you know i don't like that word when we're not in london there you go the way Just the fact that it's deployed at all, how it's deployed, that the way she delivers it, it's perfection.

33:13Adam Kempenaar:So the scene of the year contender, though, and of course, we're two critics. You know we're going to love this scene, the scene that potentially validates everything we're doing or I should say everything we aspire to do. Criticism in its highest form potentially is this scene that for now I'm going to call critiquing the Christophers. There is a scene, we'll just say, all will divulge, where she, Laurie, finally gets to really discuss how she feels about the paintings and how she feels about his work and dissect it. those, those big questions that come about in that scene. And this is something you were getting at earlier too.

34:01Adam Kempenaar:This is another case where I think Solomon with the script and Soderbergh too, I think they give us just enough where the movie at the end of it, Chris still feels to me like it cares about the characters more than it cares about these big questions about art and creativity. But it gives us enough of these questions to to hang our heads on a little bit, to give us something to think about in the moment, to give us something to think about walking out. And the scene that I am most curious to rewatch to go back and revisit is that scene to really process it, to really process what they're saying, what those questions that they're posing really are all about.

34:42Adam Kempenaar:Because I think there are big questions it poses and plays with that are fascinating. She says this line at one point, you know, where or the question around it is, where does the art come in? You have the tools, you have the sensibility, you can mimic effectively. But where does the art come into play? That's that's fascinating. This idea of legacy that the movie really gets into, how you're regarded as an artist, both while you're an artist, while you're alive but no longer an artist, and then when you're gone, by critics, by fans, what role you have or don't have in trying to serve them, in letting their expectations define you.

35:24Adam Kempenaar:And this phrase that is uttered a couple times in the movie, to last in the mind of others. Speaking of, I can't believe this is going to be a second reference to him. Speaking of aging canceled artists, wasn't it Woody Allen who said, I don't want to achieve immortality or I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve immortality through not dying. The way this movie concludes on that issue, I think, is interesting. And this this does it matter question that will make sense to anybody who's who's seen the movie around forgery, the F for fake dilemma. Does it matter? I also think is is less intellectually stimulating and more emotionally at the end is more emotionally satisfying than intellectually satisfying.

36:15Adam Kempenaar:And that's a that's a pretty good trick. And I mean, it's a great trick, all the more so for the fact that this movie kind of prods you to think about AI without ever mentioning AI. I mean, I know that's something that Soderbergh has been talking about on the press trail a little bit. But when we're doing, you know, the entire premise of this begins is like we know someone can copy Sklar's style convincingly. And we, you know, we have his brushes, we have his canvases, we have these paints that are no longer made. Like it'll, it'll pass any physical test to verify, you know, and so what if it's not his actual hand finishing the, there's actually the, uh, the, the cordon, uh, line reading where Laurie says like, oh, so you want me to find by forge them?

36:58And he says, by forging through them until they're completed. Yes. You know, which I mean, I feel like people who are higher on the potential and utility of AI than I am, certainly, I feel like they're making those kinds of whinging distinctions to me all the time. Absolutely. So, you know, again, when a movie can direct your thoughts in that direction without being explicit or clumsy about it, I mean, at least one extra star for that. I agree.

37:26Adam Kempenaar:What about the fact that the kids are such a fundamental part of this story? And when we're talking about legacy and, quote unquote, things that you're responsible for creating as an artist, isn't he the creator or at least co-creator of those kids? When he refers to them as a train wreck and a shipwreck. Yes. And I blame their mothers, he says, which I think that's the only hint that they're half siblings, right? As if they have different. He says, I blame their mothers. Good catch. Good catch. And that's the thing. He puts all the blame completely on them. And he says something to the effect that you can't blame me.

38:09Adam Kempenaar:I had nothing to do with them. Missing entirely the point that they're the way they are, probably because he had nothing at all to do with them. And that idea of legacy, your children being your legacy as an individual and like art, something you actually did create. You had a role in creating. And unlike your art, though, he could have dictated to some extent through nurture, right? He could have dictated to some extent their outcomes, how they are received in the world and the role, the impact they have on the world in a way he can't with his art. He can create his art and then it goes out into the world and it's received by the world however it's received once it is.

38:57Adam Kempenaar:Though ultimately this is the complexity of it too, right? Ultimately, you can't control your children and how they behave once they're adults any more than you can control how your art is received and what's done with it, including in the case of the Christophers. He talks about, and you mentioned this earlier, how your creation impacts the alter ego that was the inspiration, your muse. all of that is something that is conjured by this film. Yeah, right. And I mean, as you're saying this, it's not at all difficult to imagine a version of this that is far more sympathetic to Barnaby and Sally, these ne 'er-do-well kids, you know, than to Julian, right?

39:48I mean, they do kind of like, it's not like they're trying to steal his home and throw him out on the street. They're like, these are canvases that are rotting in your attic that we can hoodwink someone into paying a lot of money for. You neglected us. You've never cared about us. Yeah, right. Clearly this guy has - All true. No. And I mean, you also, we have so much discussion about Nepo babies in the entertainment industry now, right? But I mean, one of the best visual gags in this is when we see Sally's attempt to complete a Christopher. Oh, gosh. And it's just a visual joke. It's like there's practically googly eyes on this canvas.

40:24so uh you know talent is not is not hereditary it seems but here's you know chris as you say

40:29Adam Kempenaar:that though here again to the movie's credit how smart the script is i think i think that explains in part julian's response to his children he also understands that he does to some extent even though he didn't express it there i think he really does add he's a very self-aware person he he will ultimately come back to in in his quiet moments in his profound moments he'll express his self awareness and i think at his at his core he understands that his kids are the way they are due to his treatment of them and that's why he lets them get away with the horrible things that they are doing to him he doesn't whenever when he finds out from from lori what they're really up to he doesn't respond like someone who he can't believe he's being betrayed by his children he's like, well, that makes sense.

41:21Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I did find myself thinking a little bit about the Christopher Plummer character from Knives Out from the first one, which clearly he's been a more generous and providing and present father to his many kids. Right. But he is more reflective and open about the fact that it's like, you know, maybe maybe I spoiled them too much. Maybe he's more openly accepting of blame that he does have some responsibilities as a as a parent has a degree of, well, not a degree of insight that's beyond what Julian has, but he's just willing to be more public about it. Although, now that I think about it, the relationship that he has with Marta, his nurse, is not all that different from what evolves between Laurie and Julian in this movie.

42:04Adam Kempenaar:The Christophers is out now in limited release. If you have seen the film and have thoughts on it, we would love to hear them, especially if you didn't like the movie, because obviously this is a dual rave you can email us feedback at filmspotting.net you know who it will be it will be josh josh will see it and he'll be the one who decides nope i don't get all the soderbergh love here and he'll he'll rain on our parade yeah well you know i i mean if i can uh misquote uh art restorer slash forger laurie butler like i mean by by episode nine he was cooked it was uh it was it was all over there you go thanks so much for doing this chris it was fun Super fun, Adam.

42:43Thank you. This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

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