The Breakfast Club (Archive)

21:44Adam Kempenaar:I'm not that pristine. Are you a virgin? I'll bet you a million dollars that you are. So you read that scene today where we're much more attuned to things like sexual harassment and it reads very creepily. But I think that's good as well because it speaks to the authenticity. So we could say we could put a politically correct label on this and say, oh, Breakfast Club is so dated because of scenes like that. But I think it speaks to an authenticity, again, of the social cues of how girls and guys, whether it's right or wrong, do interact and how they handle those sorts of interactions. Now, the one place where we might want to talk about does the movie make a misstep is in following through on where does that relationship go by the end of the film?

22:37A, is that believable? And B, is that maybe getting us to root for something that really is unhealthy? I'm still trying to work my way through that because people read the ending differently as well, whether or not Bender and Claire do end up together or was this kind of a one-off flirtation thing.

22:54Adam Kempenaar:Well, let's just go ahead and get to it because I don't want to sidetrack the whole review with it. But for me, it's not as problematic because I do see it as more of a one-off type of thing. I don't think come Monday, Bender and Claire are holding hands with each other, walking down the hall, or he's showing up at her house and angering her father. I see this as a one-time act of kindness and compassion and deciding to call a truce. But that's it. I don't see them embarking on any kind of a relationship with each other. Okay. I wouldn't go quite that far. I don't think they're holding hands on Monday either.

23:24But I think the movie wants you to believe there is a relationship that will continue there. And I think in having us root for that is where we might want to say, okay, I don't know if that's quite so healthy. But that also brings to mind something I thought of after watching this. How did they not make the sequel, The Breakfast Club, Monday morning? And let us know, you know, what really happened to these kids when they showed up that day. I'm totally with you. Nobody even gave each other a second glance. Yeah. I mean, as hopeful as this movie wants to be, if it really stayed true and was as authentic as it is to these kids, that Monday morning would be they don't know each other at all.

23:59Adam Kempenaar:Well, maybe we'll come back to this. It is sort of like before sunrise in a little bit where you wonder six months later what's going to happen. and the key question for 30 years. And that's one of the beauties of this film as well is that we still have that question to ask and ponder and debate because we don't know the answer. But I'm with you, except I would say, Josh, a second glance is exactly what they do and no more. I think we get the second glance. I think there's a little bit of knowing. Where they try to let each other know that they remember Saturday without anyone else seeing. That's exactly right.

24:28Adam Kempenaar:But with Bender, I appreciated him as a young man, as a young kid, because I respected his verbal dexterity and his sort of just rebellious spirit. It probably was. Look, I wasn't growing up watching screwball comedy, so watching someone who was that quick and that witty and able to disarm people the way he was, that was attractive to me at that age. I didn't really see it as a performance in anything deeper than that until watching it this time. I do love his costuming as well. I picked him as one of the top five Halloween costumes I'd wear this past October, but you watch it, it's such a hodgepodge of looks.

25:02Adam Kempenaar:He's grabbing at all these different places to try to form some kind of identity. You've got the flannel before flannel was a look, the boots, those hand glove things he's wearing a little bit. There's some of that kind of biker rebel criminal thing. But there's also a guy wearing that overcoat he's wearing like he's a prep. You know, he really is just grasping at anything. And I think that applies to a lot of the characters here. But you're right in terms of the performance, that sense of anger and resentment, but also pain that underlies everything here. You realize watching it this time that he's overcompensating for everything.

25:38Adam Kempenaar:That confident routine really is just completely an act with him. And what is underlying everything is that fear that everything Andrew says to him at one point is accurate, which is that he really doesn't matter. And that comes through in Nelson's performance. And Claire calls them out on it, too. And that's where I like the Ringwald performance, where she definitely has those strong moments where she gives it back to them and lays bare. She sees through all of that because she's doing similar things. They're all doing similar things. So they all know what they're doing. But who's going to admit to it?

26:09Well, first of all, they're going to call each other out on it.

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26:46Adam Kempenaar:I think that shot, though, that unbroken take that rotates around the group is probably the only shot that really calls attention to itself in the film. But what I noticed this time, and this is one of those bits on the show here where audio certainly doesn't help us. A video essay would be much more instructive because what I loved is the editing. I really noticed this time how much of the movie is made by the cutting. because it's not visually audacious and it has so many memorable lines of dialogue in it. I think everybody focuses on the writing and they give Hughes all this credit as a screenwriter.

27:20Adam Kempenaar:But all of the relationships, the character dynamics, it's all revealed in the silences, in the looks on their faces, in their reactions. Yeah, reaction shots. Because it really is all about their perceptions of each other. And not only that, how we perceive their perceptions. So as I said before, everything is loaded. So when you cut to a reaction shot, you're really focused on how they're taking that in and what that tells you about how they see themselves, how they see the person who's talking. That is something certainly at age nine or 10 I didn't catch on to, but it's there. It really is in those decisions.

27:54Adam Kempenaar:And think about that. That has to be pretty formally rigorous because you've got pretty much the whole film, five people sitting around each other. and depending on how they shot it and depending how Hughes visualized it maybe storyboarded it or not there was probably a lot of coverage options to cut to so the editor could have gone in a lot of different directions but it's very precise every cut is done for a reason and every cut does have some meaning and that was something as I said that caught me by surprise this time for a movie that primarily takes place within that library it does not feel static at all and when they get out of the library I noticed too that there's some nice framing of individuals or even them as a group within these long institutional halls.

28:37And you could just tell that care has been taken in trying to place them within this landscape and alienate them a little bit. I mean, we don't want to get too carried away in that you're going to put this in and it's going to wow you with its cinematography. But compared to most teen comedies where the cameras just plop down and they go for the gags, it really does have another level going on. In the soundtrack, too, a little bit, there's the moment in particular, I think the same thing happens later on, but the one I'm thinking of is very early on, when Vernon slams the door shut and Bender screams the FU.

29:09And it echoes in a way, and we cut to Vernon, and we're not quite sure whether Bender even said it or if this is something that, you know, this is just how Vernon sees these kids. That's interesting, yeah. And it's amplified. And there's just a little, some nicely clever bits going on like that. For sure. Uh, Carl? What? Can I ask you a question? Sure. How does one become a janitor? You want to be a janitor? No, I just want to know how one becomes a janitor, because Andrew here is very interested in pursuing a career in the custodial arts. Oh, really? You guys think I'm just some untouchable peasant, sir?

29:47Peon, you know? Maybe so. For following a broom around after shitheads like you for the last eight years, I've learned a couple of things. I look through your letters, look through your lockers. I listen to your conversations. You don't know that, but I do. I am the eyes and ears of this institution, my friends.

30:08Adam Kempenaar:Now, I thought it'd be interesting to hear from one of the key figures in the movie. Carl the Janitor, John Kapalos, was available for us to talk to and do an interview with. And obviously, it seemed like a perfect fit for this 30th anniversary review of The Breakfast Club. And even though we couldn't do it, Golden Joe Dessau, our amazing co-producer, was available to conduct the interview. He took some of my questions, worked in a few of his own. And Joe got John Kapalos' take on why he thinks the movie resonated so strongly with audiences in 1985 and why it continues to. I think because it hits on universal truths that are always going to be there in adolescence.

30:48There's fear. There's fear of failure. there's sort of dealing with your parents and all the sort of incumbent issues that, you know, and you walk away from the film going, wait a minute, what just happened here was a sort of a catharsis for these people. And I think that kids continually relate to this movie because it addresses teenage angst and it doesn't talk down to them, period.

31:15Adam Kempenaar:I really responded to the fact that all of their problems don't get solved. And I don't know that I expected that, knowing the movie as well as I did. But I think a lot of teen movies might have gone there. They overcome their differences temporarily. They don't correct themselves or each other. Nobody gets fixed, I think, here watching this movie. They don't absolve each other for their deficiencies and their foibles because, of course, they can't. That's not reality, and I think that gets back to what you were saying in terms of authenticity. This is a reprieve from those lives, but they're going to get back to those lives.

31:46Adam Kempenaar:And to use the word that I think is so appropriate, we heard from Carl the janitor, John Kapilos, it's catharsis. There is a sense of catharsis at the end of this film. And I was thinking about why that final shot, that final frame of Bender with his fist up in the air, why that gives you this sense of triumph when at the end of the day you think nothing much has really changed here. And actually Diablo Cody, the screenwriter, is on the DVD and she talks about it as it's, of course, playing very memorably to the Simple Minds song, Don't You Forget About Me. She says it's just about a Saturday in detention, but you feel like a battle has been won.

32:21Adam Kempenaar:And she's right. You do somehow feel like a battle has been won or at least some kind of blow has been struck. Right. Something something decisive has happened, even if it's not going to change everything forever. Some kind of blow has been struck against conformity, against complacency, falling into those roles and those prior beliefs about each other and ultimately about compassion. And that's what I was hinting at when I said they'll at least give each other that second look. I think that second look is that bit of compassion. So lots of C words there, but catharsis is a big one as well as compassion.

32:50I think the right word is reprieve. I think that's dead on. And the difference is that this is a reprieve that you feel is formative. So if it does not have a practical effect on Monday morning, the hope is it will gradually as they move on with their lives. All right. So let me pump the brakes a little bit on this, all this enthusiasm, and just ask. You're not going to ruin this. You're not going to ruin that. I just have to, you know, one of us has to be a little bit reasonable about The Breakfast Club. Some of the dialogue seems like, I feel like Hughes understands kids much better than maybe he understood how they talked.

33:28Things like, eat my shorts. And, you know, no one in whatever grade I was, sixth or fifth, would say that. You don't think he was being a little bit ironic? No, there's a lot of lines like that. The dance montage, too. I mean, I know, are they high at that point? Is that the excuse we give them? Right.

33:44Adam Kempenaar:Right, which I don't think anybody really reacts to being high that way. Everyone gets manic, like they're on PCP or something. Yeah, and they're doing these routines together. I mean, you know, even as a kid, I thought that was pretty corny. I don't know. I think those lines, Josh, it did occur to me that when he says, eat my shorts, and there were maybe one or two other Bender lines where I thought, I don't think he would say it that way. But those are so compensated for by all of the other really insightful lines. And those pieces of dialogue, like you already touched on, where you get the end of a scene with a line like Andrew recognizing, how do you apologize for that?

34:20Adam Kempenaar:There are too many good lines like that where you just think— But that's why the clunkers stand out. Yeah, maybe. It's like, you know, they're a little more hilarious. It's not enough for me at all. No, it really isn't. Especially when, as I was saying, a couple of other things I like. Paul Gleason as Vice Principal Vernon. He's phenomenal. And this is sort of like when Roger Ebert revisited The Graduate after, I think, 30 years or 35 years. And he was kind of negative on the movie. And he told that story about how when he was a kid, he saw the guy at the pool party giving Benjamin Braddock advice about plastics.

34:50Adam Kempenaar:And he laughed at him like everybody else did in the audience. And now, 30 years later, he thinks, plastics, not a bad idea, right? He has that different perspective being an older man. Well, Paul Gleason as Vernon at that time was nothing but an adversary, an antagonist who didn't understand these kids. He was purely the enemy. But it's not a surprise that Hughes gives him that scene with Carl in the basement of the school. And you get a sense of his own disillusionment with his role and what he's doing there at the school. Why is he even there at the school on a Saturday at all for someone who should be in a loftier position?

35:27Adam Kempenaar:I mean, he's making 30 grand. 31, I think he says. I make$31 ,000 a year. Yeah, it's not about redeeming him. It's not about us ever siding with him against the kids, but it is at least a little bit about getting his perspective. And I think that's enough. Having a little bit of empathy for where he's coming from as well, it makes him a more interesting figure when you have that bit of empathy for him. And I do think that Carl's line to Vernon underscores another key moment in the movie for me, along with Allison's line, which is, listen, Vern, if you were 16, what would you think of you? That's something that he probably hadn't thought of until Carl said that to him, really forced himself to look at it that way and wondered how far he's come and how much he has changed in this process.

36:09Adam Kempenaar:And watching this movie again, when they cut to him in his office and he's isolated in there while they're isolated in that library setting, you are keenly aware of his isolation and his loneliness and a sense that he's being punished as well. He has to sit there, as we said, on this Saturday. That's what his life has amounted to. That probably isn't what he envisioned when he started out, as Carl alludes to in that conversation. All he has really going for him is power or some sense of respect. And the kids don't even give him that. So, of course, imagine how he's then going to behave. But again, I never felt any empathy for Vernon before or recognized any of myself in Vernon.

36:47Adam Kempenaar:And now as I watch it, I realize that there is a lot more to him than that. Well, Gleason makes him more than the butt of the joke, for sure. I mean, he is the literal butt of the joke in many instances. But because of that scene you mentioned, and he's also not just a cardboard villain because his villainy, if you can even use that word, ties into what I think really this movie is spending a lot of time considering, and it's parental failure. He is treating these kids or relating to them, power, the word you use, the same way that it appears most of their parents relate to them. This authoritarian power dynamic, he just puts that into place at school.

37:27That's what they're experiencing at home. And if anything, the movie is this argument that there are more to your kids or the teenage experience than just keeping them in line and making sure they do what they're supposed to do.

37:43Adam Kempenaar:Right. There is at least one more topic I want to get into before we finalize this review. But I thought it would make sense to hear a little bit more from John Kapalos. Of course, Carl, the janitor here in this movie, as I was talking about that conversation in the basement and the relationship between Carl and Vernon. And I wanted Joe to ask him about the fact that he seems to be articulating one of the key elements of the movie, almost given the theme of the movie to bestow on Vernon and the audience. And I wanted his sense of his function as a character in the movie. To me, a lot of what Carl does is kind of underlines, as one would say, the theme of the film, but also underlines the notion that you have dreams, you have aspirations, you have things you want to be, but be prepared because they are going to be crushed.

38:36and you think the detention is difficult and you think that this world that you're in right now is difficult, you know, stay tuned. And there was a monologue that I delivered that told them we're all, they're all going to be like 25, 30 years, like today, right? I told Molly that she's going to have stretch marks from here to Zion. She's going to have five kids, a Ford Suburban. She's going to be drinking too much and her husband's not going to pay attention to her, you know, have fun with that. And I told Michael, he's going to be a big lawyer. He's going to work in a big loop law firm. He's going to make big money and he's going to have a big heart attack and a big funeral at 42.

39:13I told Emilio that he's going to be a failed athlete and he's going to be a gym teacher for the rest of his life and living vicariously through his son, like his father is living through him. And on and on it goes. Judd Nelson, I said, well, you're going to spend five years at Attica, four years in Chino, you know, for armed robbery. And I sort of enumerated this long list of crimes that he's going to commit. And Ali Sheedy, failed loft artist in New York, living off the kindness of strangers, et cetera. So it was a really great thing because in a way that expressed like, hey, you know, you think you've got it tough now?

39:46Stay tuned. And in a way he was sort of senior buzzkill.

39:50Adam Kempenaar:So John goes on to explain that D.D. Allen, the editor, and John Hughes ultimately decided to leave that monologue out of the film. Obviously it's not there. and boy are we grateful, right? I mean, can you imagine if all of that was unloaded on those kids and us as an audience? It would have been totally heavy-handed and it would have been unnecessary. And now that I'm thinking about that smart choice by Dee Dee Allen and I'm thinking of my comments earlier about how sophisticated the editing is in this film, just before I sat down here, I thought, Dee Dee Allen, he mentioned her by name, otherwise I probably would have failed to.

40:23Adam Kempenaar:That sounds really familiar. I'm gonna look her up on IMDb and see what else she has done. And of course, what we see is just a few movies like The Hustler, Bonnie and Clyde, Serpico, Dog Day Afternoon, Reds. Nice. She's done some work. And it certainly was a case where she had the right instinct to lose that monologue. Though it does explain, Josh, why when he says that line about the clock, by the way, is 20 minutes fast, they really react to that. And I noticed watching it this time, they seemed to almost overreact to it, like it was a better little closing jab than it is. Well, it's because that was the kicker to that monologue, which would have been much funnier.

40:59And they also keep a slight variation on that. Bender delivers a little bit of that to Claire. That's true to Claire. So we get a taste of it. That's funny he describes Carl as a buzzkill because he struck me on this watch as being pretty zen, actually. And this model of a guy who maybe didn't end up where, you know, he envisioned, but few people do and take it as it comes. And it's a really good performance. and does serve, for as little screen time as he got, serves a crucial function for the film.

41:27Adam Kempenaar:Okay, well, I told you I had one more area I wanted to get into. I just would be remiss. I think we'd be remiss if we didn't go down this path. You talked about Claire and Bender and that relationship maybe being more problematic, but I'm going to get to another clip here that I want to prompt you with, Josh, a little bit, because back in 2007, I interviewed Ellen Page and Diablo Cody for the movie Juno, and I asked Cody about an Entertainment Weekly article I had read that she was interviewed for, where she referenced Angela Chase from My So-Called Life as a bit of a template for Juno, similar sensibilities.

42:01Adam Kempenaar:And I asked her if she had any others. And she mentioned Ghost World, but basically said, it's kind of sad that I can only think of a couple of examples of these kind of strong female characters on screen. And so then I asked Ellen Page if she could think of any others. And that led her to Ally Sheedy. But Ally Sheedy gets all pretty in the end for the boy. I can't believe that this is like an iconic Breaking Barriers movie. I am sorry for all the lovers at The Breakfast Club. But when I first saw that, I was like traumatized. Really? The unique girl totally changes herself. It's so strange that you brought that up because I discussed that with somebody earlier today, actually.

42:38The whole Ally Shady thing at the end is deeply distressing. And for what? Emilio Estevez? But he's a wrestler. Yeah.

42:47Adam Kempenaar:So I want to know, Josh, did you find it deeply distressing, that transformation that Allison makes at the end of the film? Cody is all over the Breakfast Club 30th anniversary Blu-ray. She's in documentaries. She does love this movie and praises it considerably. But they ask her about this, and she doesn't back down from saying that she sees it as a little bit of a betrayal of that character. Allison's selling out. What do you think? Totally with her. Really? To the point. Oh, come on. To the point that even my 11-year-old self, my 11-year-old self recognized, I can distinctly remember that being a letdown for me as a boy.

43:23Because one of the characters that I probably, I mean, I wasn't like, I would say being an introvert as a kid, I remember feeling connected to the Ally Sheedy character to that degree. There's really no type in that film that I identified with when I was in high school. They're probably just too broad. Nobody really does. But I very much liked her character. Let me put it that way. Me too. I thought she was just, you know, someone who was really cool in that sort of in the background, watching what's going on, probably smarter than maybe even Brian, and doling it out only when it was necessary.

44:02So I really liked Allison. And I remember being like, what is this now? No, this is no good beyond not even just not buying the romantic element of it. But this sort of what they're getting at more is like, this is not her. This is not, you know, doesn't need to happen. So, yeah, I'm with them on that.

44:19Adam Kempenaar:Okay, well, I definitely see the argument for sure, but I didn't see it that way as a kid, and I still don't completely see it that way now. And I think it is worth noting the specific words that Ellen Page used there where she talks about how she can't believe people regarded as some kind of big breaking barriers movie and that Allison's some kind of feminist icon or something. I don't think that's something I would argue, and I've never heard anyone else argue it. So if she was coming to the movie with that weight, expecting it to live up to that, I think the movie probably really would disappoint.

44:51Adam Kempenaar:I suppose, too, I would ask, and I'm legitimately asking. I don't have this answer. Maybe other people will share their opinion. Is something that is not feminist then anti-feminist? Because I don't know that it's the exact same thing. It's beyond that. I mean, it's the makeover. The makeover is never a good idea. No, I agree to an extent. It's just a bad trope. I agree to an extent, but here is my one counter. And this is my genuine response to it. And it was the response when I was a kid. Does Allison really change herself for Andy? Is there a transformation or more of a reveal of who she really might be?

45:30Adam Kempenaar:Because that's how I see it. I think his comment to her is important. The first thing he says to her, actually, the first thing he verbalizes is, I can see your face. He finally sees her at the end of the film rather than who she's been up to this point. A girl, as I saw it and as I see it, literally hiding behind the unkempt hair and bangs and the black eyeliner. So I'd be distressed by it more if that character I ever felt was really comfortable in her own skin and she compromised her identity to win the affection of a boy. But I don't think she compromises her identity because she's still trying to discover it just like everyone else.

46:05Adam Kempenaar:And so, yes, in hindsight, would it be better if she didn't put the blush on her cheeks? Would it be better if maybe she didn't strip down to that pink shirt? Okay, maybe so. But for me, it's more about stripping away than adding. And I think that's exactly what suggested is that a mask has been removed, not added by the makeup. That could very well be what they were going for. But the method they took is hackneyed and problematic. There's no way around that. Well, I don't know that I completely buy that, but I see the argument. I think, too, bolster my argument, I'll just say how great is it that her final moment with Andrew is her stealing the patch off his jacket.

46:40Adam Kempenaar:Just in case we thought, well, she's no longer the basket case. She prettied herself all up. All of her problems have been solved by this little makeover. And now she's like everyone else, just conforming to the way high school is. Nope. She rips off that patch. And I just think that's one of those great little touches that shows how in sync Hughes was with these characters, even after a little bit of misstepping with how that reveal goes down. Unless she's going to put it on her own Letterman jacket. Then the transformation is complete. Maybe that's what was going to happen. That would be fine.

47:07Adam Kempenaar:That would be fine. Okay. There is a lot more I think we could talk about with The Breakfast Club, but wow, I think we've talked enough. So we will go ahead and close out there.

47:28Adam Kempenaar:I'm going to recommend Josh that 10 years from now, we give The Breakfast Club another look, see how we come at that movie for its 50th anniversary, because, you know, I'm sure it came up in that conversation. I didn't re-listen to it. I don't want to re-listen to it. Maybe I will 10 years from now and see how I wrestled with it upon that revisit. But that movie for me was one of the first movies I remember incessantly quoting and, and thinking was not only hilarious, but also profound, you know, and I was, I was like 10, you know, so whatever profound meant at 10, I thought that movie was, it was a peek into the high schooler's life, right?

48:11That's what you were getting.

48:12Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, absolutely. Reminder that you can get full archive access over a thousand episodes going back to 2005. Get them in Spotify, get them in Apple podcasts, whatever player you want. You can get that by being a film spotting family member plus monthly bonus shows, a weekly newsletter. And when we do any event, which we will have some events coming up and we think we You may have another film spotting fest film spotting family members get early access. They get discounts. They get VIP access to things. If that sounds interesting to you, sounds like something you'd want. Well, learn more at film spotting family.com.

48:52Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

49:28Adam Kempenaar:Thank you.

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