Top 5 Spider-Man Scenes | #1074

16:38Adam Kempenaar:So that imagery, which, which seems almost like Christ imagery, obviously with him being held aloft with his arms out as he's being taken back in is really a stunning image. That line about him being just a kid is one that sticks with you. And the last thing I'll say is that even in the really bad Spider-Man movies, and some of these films that we considered are bad, there are moments like that. Maybe not on that level. That's why this one's on your list and why it's an honorable mention for me. But every one of these movies gives you at least one visual moment like that that you can take away from it.

17:21Adam Kempenaar:And maybe that's why something about Spider-Man and these films at least stays in our imagination and why we want to do lists like this one. my number five is one that involves dialogue and no no great imagery josh unless you consider a couple of really effectively deployed close-ups and i suppose i will i'm going to start with a spider-man scene that doesn't involve anyone in a spider-man suit nor anyone in any kind of superhero or supervillain suit at all. There's certainly no CGI. There's no spectacle to it whatsoever, unless you consider watching Michael Keaton perform on screen a spectacle.

18:07Adam Kempenaar:When I think of these Tom Holland MCU Spider-Man movies, the scene that I have to admit is most memorable for me, it's not any of these big show-stopping action sequences, and it's still a treat to watch it's the dad talk between keaton's adrian tombs and holland's peter parker when he's taken his daughter out on a date and they're in the back seat together as keaton's vulture is chauffeuring them around and he has put together what peter has already put together having recognized him because he doesn't wear a mask that he is he is the villain he's the bad guy but here adrian's putting it together that through some of the conversation that peter parker his daughter's date is in fact his nemesis now spider-man does she know know what so she does good close to the vest i admire that i've got a few secrets of my own of all the reasons i didn't want my daughter to date comic book villains this is why i also wanted to give a little bit of love to this scene and not just give it to Spider-Man as we're doing our top five Spider-Man moments.

19:22Comic book villains on screen

19:24Adam Kempenaar:are just so hard to pull off. When you think about the best superhero movies, period, so often aren't the ones that are near the top of the list, they're the ones that have the most memorable villains. Like three right off the top of my head, The Dark Knight with the Joker. eric killmonger is one of the great villains in black panther spider-man 2 you just talked about it and doc ock alfred molina is a key part of that and you might be listening and saying well yeah duh the the villains they're the antagonist they're a huge part of the movie they're major characters they're driving the action of course the villains are important that that's my point though it should be obvious and yet there are plenty of examples where they the filmmakers try to provide some psychological motivation and mostly hope the cool effects will wow the audience.

20:18Adam Kempenaar:They give them a cool suit or whatever and some cool powers, and that's about it. And this will come up again when I do bring up The Amazing Spider-Man 2. Electro, anyone? You know, I think Electro kind of fits this bill and is one of the reasons why the amazing— no offense to Jamie Foxx, who I think gives it his best, but he's not a good villain. And you watch this scene between Keaton and Holland and Keaton is just delivering what I said at the time was a masterclass in menace. It's so intense without ever raising his voice. He's so scary, despite having a smile on his face for much of the conversation.

21:00Adam Kempenaar:I mean, it's a it's a twisted smile, but it's a smile. Peter,

21:05Josh Larsen:nothing is more important than family. You saved my daughter's life, and I could never forget something like that, so I'm going to give you one chance. Are you ready? You walk through those doors, you forget any of this happened, and don't you ever, ever, interfere with my business again. Because if you do, I'll kill you, and everybody you love, i'll kill you dead that's what i'll do to protect my family people you understand

21:38Adam Kempenaar:villains if you if you really go back and think about them they they almost always have a grudge of course against someone and it's usually spider-man or whoever they're fighting or against the world and they believe they're justified in their actions why else are they doing whatever why else are they doing it unless maybe i can't believe i'm mentioning it again unless maybe they're the rhino paul giamatti's character in the amazing spider-man 2 who just seems to want to wreak havoc for no no good reason but with the vulture it's very clear that keaton tapped into a character who just wants to take care of his family and believes that his business has been screwed over by the government and when you watch the movie it's hard to argue with him you you absolutely understand the predicament that he's in and you sympathize with him he certainly feels like even though it's just these two guys sitting in the car he feels like a real threat to spider-man here as as a villain he's he's of course a threat despite just being a man that's it he's he's not imbued with any special powers he is he is just a man all of these other villains or almost all the other villains you can think of have been transformed in some way and are not really human or fully human anymore.

22:59Adam Kempenaar:Vulture stands out because of his humanity and, and you see it, you see it come through in his, his over protectiveness of his family in this scene. Like I said, it was, it was one of the first few scenes that came to mind for me, maybe because it's one of the most recent, but of all the, the MCU incarnations, this one had to be on my list. Yeah.

23:22Josh Larsen:It came to mind to me immediately as well. Unfairly, probably because I walked into the family room maybe two or three weeks ago and this was playing on the TV. This is what my kids were watching and I just had to stop. I had to sit down. I had to finish it because it's a great scene. As a matter of fact, I've got it higher on my list. So I'm going to do some jumping around here and I'll get back to my number four and right now talk about my number three, which is where I have the dad talk. It is, if we have to like give a majority of the credit, it is Keaton. You're right. This is a character as you laid out well, so smartly conceived and motivated, believably so.

24:06Josh Larsen:And then what Keaton does with it. I mean, those who need CGI when you have Michael Keaton's eyebrows, you're good. That's definitely a huge part of the tension in this scene. I do think Holland is also quite good here though, even though it's not his moment, this is Keaton's moment, but, um, I like how he plays Peter trying to be cool, but clearly not only intimidated, but scared on a multiple, multiple reasons because of his relationship with Vulture's daughter. um right laura harrier um is is the actress here and um she's at the beginning of the scene and i love the dynamic there she's like okay i'm gonna go go in and leave you two alone to have your talk and this is i think this is what's so great about this scene as well is the genius the simple genius of the of spider-man homecoming let's say to a lesser degree far from home and i think this gets lost a bit in No Way Home, but in Spider-Man Homecoming is that it was a high school movie first and a Spider-Man movie second.

25:14Josh Larsen:And so your emotional investment is equally, at least let's say in that scene, in this familiar, uncomfortable dynamic of being, you know, a teen couple in a car with one of your parents and what you're going to talk about, how your parent is going to act, how your boyfriend or girlfriend is going to act. However that goes already, you've got natural anxiety. And then the context that this story brings into it just amps that up. And I think that's the line that Holland plays really well in the movie overall, but here in particular, um, he's, he's anxious as the boyfriend and he's anxious as the hero, um, facing his nemesis here.

25:56Josh Larsen:So, uh, it goes back to that, you know, he's just a kid thing we already touched on, right? Um, that's definitely at play here. I think the best thing about these Holland movies are the way they kind of capture the acute anxiety of that. So, yeah, totally with you there. My number three pick is the dad talk. Now, you go on in there, you show my daughter a good time, okay?

26:21Adam Kempenaar:Just not too bad. part of the fun of that scene as a viewer is the way it plays with our expectations and our understanding of these familiar scenes and that's a familiar cultural scene whether we've been involved in it ourselves or not we understand the dad talk as the dad in that scene even refers to it i'm gonna have the dad talk and the daughter knows what that means as she gets out of the the car and it doesn't go the way it should go at all so it subverts that but then also it subverts the superhero villain hero conversation confrontation scene because there are plenty examples in those movies where and in spider-man movies where one of the two in the scene is kind Kind of on to the other and their real identity.

27:22Adam Kempenaar:And so they have that teasing conversation where they're kind of trying to suss it out or they're they're they're prodding the other one a little bit, but it doesn't really go anywhere. They don't actually they don't say it. They don't bluntly say what they're really thinking and feeling, and they don't actually call the other person out on it. And in this scene, they just he just puts the pleasantries completely aside and does that. So I think it just confounds our expectations in that way, in a really great way. You may have already seen it, Josh, but I need to go see Spider-Man Brand New Day in order to review it here next week on the show.

28:03Adam Kempenaar:That's one I am excited to see in the theater. Have a couple of kids in my house, actually, who are excited to see the new Spider-Man movie as well. So I'll have company for that one. And it will be fun to watch that now through the lens of having revisited all of these films and thinking about some things in common. There are definitely some callbacks to a few of the moments we talked about. The Invite is the big movie I still haven't caught in the theater. And you can still see that at Regal Cinemas. And here's one more I'm going to call out. Because we were just in Spring Green. And we were hanging out, seeing some theater with our producer, Sam.

28:42Adam Kempenaar:And he talked about a musical that I've never seen any kind of production of. It's playing on the big screen. Hadestown, the musical. Sam swears by how good this musical is. And this stars the original Broadway cast. Hadestown, the musical available now on the big screen. And you can see that for free with Regal Unlimited, the all you can watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself. in just two visits. If you sign up for Regal Unlimited, just use the code FILMSPOT26 to get 15 % off. Regal Unlimited is the only truly limitless movie subscription pass. You can see any standard 2D movie anytime with no blackout dates or restrictions, and you don't just save money on tickets, you also save on snacks.

29:32Adam Kempenaar:You get 10 % off all non-alcoholic concessions. Again, just sign up now in the Regal app or at the link in our podcast notes and use code filmspot26 to get your discount.

29:51Adam Kempenaar:So we've got your number five, we've got my number five, and we've got your number three. That means then we do have to go back to my number four, and we're going to stick with recent vintage Spider-Man. And this is from Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse, And the sequence is, my name is Peter B. Parker, Jake Johnson, when we learn about the backstory of his character. And I guess this is what I'm looking for or something that I need from these scenes in order to make my list anyway, Josh, that subversion of expectations. we're not used to seeing spider-man with the five o 'clock shadow or with the b in his name so something's a little bit off our spidey sense is tingling a little but he more or less looks like the spider-man we know from the movies everything's checking out he even says let's do this one last time suggesting that he's going to give us the familiar yarn let's just bring you up to speed, but it's everything you already know.

31:01Adam Kempenaar:And as he's saying it, the story and the imagery lines up, including a scene we may hear about later, right? The upside down kiss, the famous upside down kiss with MJ and his dialogue. The narration includes, you see, I saved the city, fell in love. Okay. I got married. Well, that's, that's maybe a new wrinkle, but I can buy that save the city some more maybe too much i'm still i'm still buying this i'm thinking congratulations spidey i'm glad i'm glad things worked out you fell in love and then i'm pretty sure you know

31:36Josh Larsen:the rest you see i saved the city fell in love i got married saved the city some more maybe too much my marriage got testy made some dicey money choices don't invest in a spider-themed restaurant then like 15 years passed blah blah blah super barn i broke my back a drone flew into my face I buried Aunt May. My wife and I split up, but I handled it like a champion.

31:59Adam Kempenaar:It's the part about the marriage getting testy and making some dicey money choices and him warning us, Josh, to not invest in any spider-themed restaurants. Did you know, Josh, that seahorses mate for life? I can't imagine a seahorse seeing another seahorse and making it work. This is funny stuff, genuinely funny stuff. And even though those movies, these superhero movies are largely about the conflict between two identities, trying to reconcile being a hero versus just being a man. I don't think any of us actually do really consider the possibility that any of these heroes are ever going to be washed up.

32:47Adam Kempenaar:And so this movie makes us think about that. and the ironic juxtapositions of the visuals and Peter's narration. I remember seeing his in the theater and laughing out loud at it, but I handled it like a champ and he's sobbing in the shower. And no matter how many times I get hit, I always get back up and he's just, you know, crouched in bed, completely despondent. The way too that Jake Johnson lowers his voice at the beginning, He's talking in that normal kind of Jake Johnson way.

33:22Josh Larsen:But then when he says the one and only Spider-Man, the one and only Spider-Man, as if he knows

33:30Adam Kempenaar:as the character, he has to say it with some authority. But he also he also means it. It's not just out of some sense of duty. It's not it's not performative. He wants to put that authority behind it. I think that's why Johnson is so perfect in that role as Peter B. Parker. is that he is inherently an ironic actor. There's always an element of winking at the audience, but he does not overplay it at all. There is something still deeply genuine that he brings to certainly this character. And I think this scene for me may be a microcosm of Spider-Verse, where I remember not only finding it legitimately hilarious, but also I was shaking my head at how the filmmakers took something, took a narrative and took imagery that was so familiar and made it feel brand new.

34:26Josh Larsen:Yeah, that quality of Jake Johnson's performance, I think works really well with the progression you get in this scene, because it does start out, as you were saying, with the familiar things and showing us what we knew or we've heard in other iterations. And then there's the slight diversion. He starts to use euphemisms, right? Like the money thing. He doesn't exactly say what happened. It's way worse than the phrase he uses. And then, as you said, by the time the scene comes to its end, what he's saying is exactly the opposite of what we're seeing. So that vocal quality works well with this progression towards complete denial that the visuals are giving us.

35:03Josh Larsen:Yeah, so smart. Such a smart movie. Able to be funny and thrilling in so many ways. And, you know, even this character, I think, works well because he is a supporting character to this larger story we're telling. And so we can get these qualities before they become rote or too familiar or too much of a joke. Instead, they're informing the larger narrative in crucial ways, but also really entertaining ones like this scene. All right, so I need to jump back to my number four to get us back on track here. And I have a bit of a cheat here. I did this with Superman too. This is going to be a title sequence and theme song.

35:49Josh Larsen:I am choosing that from the Spider-Man animated series that ran from 1967 to 1970. 70 with the Superman list we did. I chose the opening for those Fleischer Studios shorts from 1941. A listener keyed me in on those and I ended up watching, I don't know how many, because they were just fascinating and had that great opening sequence. And part of my reasoning for picking it there is because that sequence from 1941 cemented crucial qualities of the Superman character in our collective imagination. And I think this one, even though it's borrowing quite heavily from the comic books, this did so in the late 60s and onward.

36:30Josh Larsen:I mean, we were watching this, Adam, not during its initial run. We would have been watching this maybe 10 years after on reruns, right? But it had been, I'm sure, playing the whole time for multiple generations of kids. So if you look at the Spider-Man, if you look at Spider-Man as a character, basically debuting in a Marvel comic in 62, got his first solo series in 63. And obviously that set the foundation for the character. But for me, born in 74, I think this was my first encounter with Spider-Man. That would be my guess. I didn't really read comic books for whatever reason until I was an adult, actually.

37:10Josh Larsen:Um, and so this Spider-Man cartoon was my first encounter and I was locked in that opening has everything I wanted. It had the swinging. You talked about the web slinging radioactive blood. Sure. I probably had no idea what that meant, but sure. It sounds great. Uh, and yeah, lots and lots and lots of climbing. And I think this also captures a quality that is a crucial one for Spider-Man beyond his youth, but maybe related, that's emphasized here. He was friendly. He was a friendly Spider-Man. The lyrics are telling us this, but the image, I'll never forget. It's this great little bit, kind of a winking bit in this opening credit sequence where he's swinging through the air and we get a close-up and he just waves to the quote-unquote camera, waving at me, like six or seven-year-old me, however old I was.

38:10Josh Larsen:there was this superhero who paused in his heroics to give me a little wave.

38:20Josh Larsen:So it's a delightful piece of Spider-Man iconography. It still resonates today. This is where the Spider-Man pointing at himself meme comes from. So I did have to have it on my list, even though it's from a TV series.

38:31Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Watching that clip just a little bit earlier today, definitely took me back. Talk about a wave of nostalgia. It did bring me back to my childhood. My number three is from Spider-Man 2, Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 2, and it's the planetarium party. I have to give credit to the host of FilmSpotting SVU, one of the hosts of FilmSpotting SVU, Matt Singer for reminding me of this scene and the way I was reminded of this scene Josh is via our upcoming episode of movie deathmatch this will drop in listeners feed if you follow film spotting it will drop in your feed on Monday August 3rd with brand new day coming out we did a deathmatch between what a lot of people contend are the two best spider-man movies old school school Spider-Man 2 and new school into the Spider-Verse.

39:30Adam Kempenaar:Matt advocating for Spider-Man 2, Daisy Rosario defending into the Spider-Verse. Had a really great conversation about it. Again, that show will be coming into your feed soon. Matt mentions a scene from Spider-Man 2. And when I was scanning through the movie and I went back and broke this scene down, I knew it had to be on my list. And the reason why Matt brought it up in the context of Deathmatch is he was mentioning how during this scene, you really recognize Sam Raimi's sadistic tendencies as a director, how they really come out. And we'll get into that because this is the scene that's this big high society gala.

40:12Adam Kempenaar:And Peter has been hired by J. Jonah Jameson to be the photographer for the event. There is a lot of story unfolding here. Harry Osborn and Peter are fighting about Spider-Man. Peter is watching MJ. He doesn't know it when he gets there, but Peter is watching MJ get engaged to another man, John Jameson. And it all could have just unfolded, rendering all of that drama with a very dramatic expression. Like, I honestly could have picked this scene, Josh, forgetting all the sadistic stuff and just focusing on this moment. It could be a top five contender just for the moment. The dramatic expression of Peter's torment when he has to watch MJ descend the staircase with John hearing about this perfect man and then seeing her so happy.

41:08Adam Kempenaar:Well, seemingly happy as she comes down the stairs and the way camera and editing work together, kind of swirling around him to show how devastated he is. It's very, very effective. But where this scene really becomes special for me is that it could have just been all that. It could have been just about showing his heartache and devastation. But what layers does Sam Raimi add being Sam Raimi? and I assume it's a Raimi touch here because it it could have been written into the script by David Koepp but not only do I trust Matt Singer at least in giving the credit to Raimi it also is part of it Josh where there's no dialogue it's all just physical action that happens so here again I'm going to give the credit to Raimi in the in the blocking think about everything that is going wrong for Peter at this point in the movie beyond his best friend hating both him Spider-Man, two parts of him, and MJ forsaking him for another guy.

42:12Adam Kempenaar:He's doubting whether he should continue to be a superhero at all, and his powers are fading. He's at this low point, the lowest point he could possibly be. How does Raimi portray the emotional ringer that Peter is going through, how everything he wants seems to be just out of his reach, how he is both part of society, but also excluded from it. Well, the whole sequence begins with him walking into the party and seeing one last hors d 'oeuvre on a tray and reaching for it. And right as he reaches for it, someone else comes along and grabs it. So there you go. He can't get just that little treat that he wants.

43:02Adam Kempenaar:Okay, fine. Then he sees, we have that great mini sequence where he sees MJ arm in arm with this perfect man, it seems, John. So he goes outside. Another waitress walking around with a tray. This one, Randy shoots it so it's at his exact eye level, like almost beckoning him to come over and take it. One more on the tray. Same thing. Someone grabs it just before. Like he can't even get a bite of food here at this party, Josh. It's that bad. So now he's having a conversation outside with MJ. And she tells him off how this is just not going to work, that she has to move on, that she's going to have to go with this other, why she's going with this other man.

43:52Adam Kempenaar:And another waiter passes by and they have one drink. And it seems like a fancy drink. It's got a little tiki hut or something in it. And he reaches for it, parched, goes to take the large gulp, and it's an empty. It's somebody's empty glass. He can't even get his thirst satisfied there in the moment. And as if that wasn't bad enough, we get that followed by the indignity of Harry slapping him twice. And then he has to take a photo of the newly engaged MJ and John. So I don't know. Sadist might be putting it mildly. Ramey is a monster when you watch this scene in terms of the way he treats Peter Parker over the course of this four or five minutes.

44:41It's kind of horrible, but also undeniably funny watching poor Peter at all these little steps get denied when the poor guy just wants like a crab cake and a drink of whatever is in

44:56Adam Kempenaar:that glass. But that's the sensibility that, like I said, almost certainly wasn't in the script that an imaginative director like Raimi brings to those films that makes those first two films in particular, but parts of the third film as well that makes those films so special. Yeah.

45:16Josh Larsen:And the comic aspect is related to slapstick. There's a slapstick element, maybe a slower pace slapstick going on here, which I think of as a part of Raimi's style as well. And yeah, can't wait to hear that episode with Matt. We should repeat and mention maybe to plug more his book, Spider-Man, Marvel's Spider-Man, from amazing to spectacular. it's really I mean it there's so much information in it but it looks beautiful too and I remember when that came out a number of years ago that that was when I was trying to get my younger daughter into Spider-Man so bought that for her to to uh to move her along it's a really great book 30 years ago an island off Manhattan almost brought down New York City who will you trust your friends and neighbors or you trust the people five miles overseas this is a story about neighbors turning on each other.

46:10Josh Larsen:And what happens when a forgotten place decides it's had enough. We reached for a feeling that exists in this city. But we're not stopping, are we? I'm Ben Nadeff-Hafri. And for my new series on revisionist history, I took a deep dive into Staten Island's attempt to secede from New York City in the 1990s. And what it all has to do with the politics of resentment that dominate America today. Listen to Revisionist History, The Staten Island Problem, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

46:54Josh Larsen:Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back. I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode's a little different, but it all involves music and conversation with some of my favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl, Leve, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolfe, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season, I've sat down with Joshua Homme, Sarah McLachlan, John Legend, and more. Check out my new episode with Phineas.

47:27Adam Kempenaar:So I went home and I asked Billie if she wanted to sing it. She immediately made it her own thing. No fair

47:41Josh Larsen:You really know how to make me cry When you give me those oceans So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Declaration, which is full of these beautifully rendered sentences and paragraphs about Enlightenment ideals does also have this darker history to it. Why is it important for the darker part of the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution, why is it important that Americans know about it?

48:17Adam Kempenaar:Well, if we don't understand the full context in which our nation was founded, we won't understand the full context in which our nation now finds itself.

48:29Josh Larsen:I'm Rebecca Nagel, citizen of Cherokee Nation.

48:35Adam Kempenaar:Are you guys big Chiefs fans? Hell yeah.

48:38Josh Larsen:This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We've all been there. We've had seasons that have shaken everything. The question is, what remains when the shaking stops?

49:04Adam Kempenaar:Hi, I'm Gary Valenciano, and on my podcast, Unshaken with Gary V., I sit down with amazing personalities and we talk about the seasons that nearly broke them, the lows that carried them to their highs. Listen to Unshaken with Gary Vee on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

49:50Adam Kempenaar:For this list, the scenes are available if you'd like to watch along as we discuss them. Let's also take a minute, Josh, to thank the Film Spotting family. Membership is the single largest source of support for the show. It does keep us doing what we've been doing for over 21 years. And we normally shout out a couple of Film Spotting family members. We will get back to doing that. But we wanted to highlight again, summer madness, summer film spotting, family madness, the best of the 1920s and 30s. When we left off, I think maybe we were announcing the play in round. But with our week off, we did have round one.

50:35Adam Kempenaar:It played out and we should give some props, I suppose, to the selection committee. In this case, myself and Sam, because all the favorites won, as I thought would happen. sure it wasn't a case of any major upsets here we did have the favorites advance so there were a couple close matchups that does mean that round two is live as we are recording this there are eight matchups then and that includes the wizard of oz versus chaplains modern times metropolis versus king kong the passion of joan of arc versus bringing up baby i mean i i can vote fairly easily in all three of those. What about you?

51:16Josh Larsen:Well, this is basically asking me to rethink and agonize over my sight and sound top 10 of all time list.

51:23Adam Kempenaar:You're right.

51:24Josh Larsen:And the constantly shifting order because I believe Wizard of Oz, Modern Times, King Kong, Metropolis, I think all four of those have either been on my top 10 of all time list or circling that honor in the various iterations we've done over the years on the show here. So, um, I don't know how to start thinking about this. I, I'm going to need a little bit of a little bit of time. I can say passion of Joan of Arc versus bringing up baby. That's the easy one for me because I only like bringing up baby. Um, whereas passion of Joan of Arc, you know, it's all timer. So that's an easy answer for me.

52:09Josh Larsen:I don't know where I'm going to go with the other ones, how to even begin thinking about it, which is, I suppose, why we do this thing.

52:16Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, well, that's that's part of it. And certainly a reason why we do madness proper on the show, we've always said is discovery, even though sometimes we're talking about movies you would think everyone knows when we've been doing more recent decades. As we go farther back, it is about sharing titles that maybe some of our audience hasn't seen. And in some cases we haven't seen and we're doing the homework that we need to do as well. So case in point, David Kolb, a listener who is a film spotting family member participating in this madness and had a comment in the film spotting discord that we wanted to share.

53:00Adam Kempenaar:And this, Josh, you can read it. This is an example. It's an interesting query that we can just throw out to film spotting listeners to consider. But also, I think it just speaks to why we do tournaments, silly madness tournaments like this because of a reaction that David could have to a film like The Passion of Joan of Arc. David says,

53:50Josh Larsen:that have soundtracks that were written much later. Is it possible to separate these aspects of the film? And if so, should we? Well, thank you, David, for participating and yet taking the time to watch Joan of Arc. This is a question that has long bedeviled me and I've avoided trying to come up with a conclusive answer because oftentimes when you're trying to track down older films like this, your viewing options are limited, let alone your score options. But I think it's a really important question, and I'm sure a film historian would have a decisive opinion on it. I think my instinct usually, if I'm looking for options, is if there is any sort of original.

54:39Josh Larsen:Now, with silent films, of course, there's no original original, right? But if there has been historical work done where this piece was often used to accompany, you know, the earliest screenings of the silent film that we can go back and actually pinpoint, then I would go with that just to kind of be sort of a purist historically. but there are many films that, older films that have used contemporary scores in the way the one David is talking about that probably work better, um, and sound better and serve the story better. So I don't know if the historical purity route is necessarily the best defense.

55:23It,

55:24Adam Kempenaar:it is so tough, but maybe this is obvious and not really what, what David is getting into, because I understand, as you're suggesting, there's a larger philosophical conundrum here. But for the purposes of something like Madness, your choice is your choice, and it's what you're limited to. It may simply be a case that if you only have access to something like the Criterion version of it with the score, and for our arbitrary needs, you're weighing it against The Adventures of Robin Hood, and you watch both films, and you have to pick one that you like more, all you can do is go off the version of The Passion of Joan of Arc that you saw.

56:06Adam Kempenaar:And I don't need to overthink it any more than that. I think we always want to default to as close to original versions as we can find of something. But if it proves to be too difficult, I don't know what else you can do, right? So it is a very interesting question, and I haven't had a chance yet to look. I'm curious what people in the Film Spotting Family Discord have had to say in response to David. I will check that out. Other Film Spotting Family members can do that as well because they have access to that Discord. They have access to the tournament. They get other benefits like our Film Spotting Family newsletter where these matchups and the polls go live every week.

56:50Adam Kempenaar:you can get access to all of this stuff, including our monthly bonus shows for as little as$5 a month. And we do have a current promotion going on now where it's even less than that through the month of August, our summer promotion. And all you have to do is use the promo code summer. You'll get 20 % off any film spotting family membership. That's any monthly or annual membership 20 off through august just use the promo code summer we thank all of our spotting family members for their support

57:32Adam Kempenaar:A couple of quick notes before we round out our top five Spider-Man scenes. We have two more picks left. You brought to my attention a really fine article by Richard Roper talking about something I don't know how many of our listeners are aware of. They've maybe heard about it a little bit over the years. There's this mysterious Lake Street screening room that the two of us have both had the honor, quite frankly, the privilege of sitting in. And it does seem it's maybe not imminent. We don't know the exact route it's going to take or what the timing is going to be. But it does certainly seem based on Richard Roper's article, which we will link to in our show notes if you would like to read it.

58:15Adam Kempenaar:It does seem like the Lake Street Screening Room may be no more, which is really sad to think of when you consider all the history that is in that room. So this may be a little inside baseball, but hey, this is a film criticism show, and it's something that we did want to spend a minute on.

58:32Josh Larsen:We have to. The history is so rich. This article by Richard Roper is really good, just very reflective. And based on my experience attending there over the, I guess, decades now captures it quite well. So we'll link to it. It's at RogerEbert.com appropriately, because this was the home of Roger Ebert and Gene Siskel from the early newspaper years all throughout their television show. show. And I do remember when I first got a chance to go probably mid to late nineties, maybe a 40 seat. It's probably in the article. I should, I should know this offhand, but not a very big room. And when I got a chance to go writing a freelance movie review for a newspaper, feeling like I was entering the Holy of Holies because they were all there.

59:22Josh Larsen:Ebert and Siskel, but also at the time, Michael Wilmington, Chicago Tribune critic as well, alongside Siskel. Jonathan Rosenbaum, Chicago reader critic. I mean, people I had grown up reading religiously. And here I was sitting in an intimidatingly small screening room with them. And so it was that. It was also just the idiosyncratic nature of it. It's in this high rise, you know, in the middle. 16th floor of an unassuming high rise, which I think the building's being sold, which is why the occasion for this article or has been sold. And yeah, you just walked in and you'd go up and there would be this room and there'd be all these folks and you'd get to watch these movies in advance.

1:00:08Josh Larsen:And it's faded. I think I've only been there once maybe within the last year or so. More screenings are being held just in larger theater chains around the city. and uh yeah the the quality is the other thing of the presentation though and uh richard groper interviews steve krauss who's been the projectionist and really the the running the whole space um all this time and you just knew that it was going to be pristine no matter what the format and that's something you know when you're going to a wider chain for press screenings you don't always get. Let's just say the framing for the Odyssey press screening was a little bit, you know, it wasn't quite even on the screen.

1:00:55Josh Larsen:It wasn't disastrous. We got the whole picture, but just being there reminded me again of what you would get from the Lake Street screening room. So yeah, I don't know if, were we ever there together, Adam? I think by the time I was doing the show, it was being used less and less, but I'm sure there were a couple instances where we caught something there.

1:01:12Adam Kempenaar:Absolutely. There were. And it's so funny how over the years now it's hard to remember exactly how many times but i i know for sure because i remember referencing and this doesn't happen very often that i do this but i remember referencing the muted response to the grand budapest hotel the first time i reviewed it and it was the critics response in the room and we were all together watching it in the lake street screening room the first time I saw that movie. I think late 2006, early 2007, so just about a year and a half or two years into film spotting was when we finally did get access to that room and absolutely feeling like you had arrived.

1:01:59Adam Kempenaar:And you especially felt like you'd arrived when you walk in and there's Roger Ebert. And no one had to tell you that that was his place in the back. You knew that if he was sitting there, that had to be his spot and he was going to sit there every time and you would not ever dare to sit in that seat. And I did pretty much always find a seat just in like the third row middle. But that's the other thing about this that I did want to mention, Josh, is that I think when you hear about this place and you think about like Siskel and Ebert being here at this private screening room for critics, the image in your mind, you talk about the great presentation, which it was the image in your mind is of this pristine, immaculate sort of place.

1:02:50Adam Kempenaar:And it's not that it was run down or tawdry or anything, but it also always felt to me just very working class and just very much a space where working, working critics were there to see the movie they had to see and then go do the work that they had to do in response to that movie it wasn't it wasn't there to be some some hallowed movie house it was it was there to project to you a a good picture and good sound and a comfortable seat

1:03:22Josh Larsen:it was not it was not gilded and there was a lot of food being brought in no i can remember you In my heyday, when I was working as a daily critic, I would see three in a day. You'd have 15 minutes between the 10 a.m. got out and the 12, 15 would start to run down to a hot dog stand and bring it back up before the next one started. So there's a lot of crinkling of papers. And yeah, you're right. It was not like this hallowed museum, which was part of its charm. And it's interesting you mentioned that about the hushed reception to Grand Budapest Hotel. Well, you know, one of the things I do appreciate about these larger screenings we have more often now, often with audiences who have won tickets to see it is, um, that there's not that sort of, and this didn't always happen, but that sort of reserved air of caution that would definitely be in that room.

1:04:16Josh Larsen:And I was a part of it. Like, you know, especially when you're new, you don't want your, your reactions to be heard by Roger. Cause what if he's not feeling the same, you know? So you're dealing with that sort of thing. And I think that just kind of became, or people just wanted to keep their reactions close, you know, not let it known, let it be known how they feel about the movie, which is maybe one of the downsides of a situation like that compared to a bigger theater where you can let loose a little bit. But yeah, there probably won't be anything like it, again, just the way media has gone and film reviewing and the whole process has changed.

1:04:59Josh Larsen:There's as many influencers as critics at some of these screenings now, which is fine, but it's just a whole different experience than what could be had at the Lake Street screening room for sure.

1:05:11Adam Kempenaar:Again, we will link to the article in our show notes. It is a very interesting read. If you're curious to check out Richard Roper's piece, we now move on to our deeply flawed film spotting poll. It probably is deeply flawed because we don't need all of these choices, but we're going to give them to you. Anyway, your task is to choose one and only one Spider-Man film. I guess that's how we do it. We're applying it's unwritten here, but it is implicit that the incinerator is at work here, Josh, behind the scenes. And only one of these movies survived. So which one is it in chronological order? The options are.

1:05:50Yeah.

1:05:50Josh Larsen:The incinerator has a generator, so it's never offline. Okay. So our options, Spider-Man 2002, Spider-Man two from 2004 into the spider verse, Spider-Man homecoming, and then across the spider verse. So there's a couple of challenges here. We are going to include the option of other as well for you, Andrew Garfield fans. There's two things you have to decide. Am I going Spider-Verse or live action? And then among that choice, which live action or which Spider-Verse? I'm still thinking my way through this. So give me 20 seconds or so. So do you have do you have an obvious way to go?

1:06:34Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, I can banter a little bit, but I'm just going to stall as well because I've been thinking about this. But I was thinking about it before we'd even come to this poll question, just as I was doing the top five list, because I feel like I'm a little bit on the outside when it comes to the conventional wisdom on this. and that is that there's a reason why we picked for movie death match and we did consider what various people had to say and consult various lists there's a reason why we picked to represent the live action we we picked spider-man 2 and there's a reason why we picked into the spider verse now part of picking into the spider verse may have actually had to do with it being the first animated one.

1:07:19Adam Kempenaar:And so it felt revolutionary and Spider-Man two actually felt more like the culmination, the pinnacle of, of what Raimi was doing. I'm not going to get into it any more than that, but that's my, my quick armchair assessment for me. And I want to note, I have not rewatched other than scanning scenes for the top five. I have not sat and rewatched in one sitting fully focused taking notes for a review spider-man 2 but i have done that fairly recently with well fairly recently like eight years ago or whenever it was for spider or not eight years ago three years ago four years ago for spider-man for spider-man the original right because it was its 20th anniversary in 2022 so that is that is lingering in my mind but my point is is that when i think about those first two movies i feel like the conventional wisdom is that spider-man 2 is the greater achievement and spider-man the first one is the one that is stronger in my memory there are scenes that are have have stayed with me josh in a greater way and i feel like it it has edged out spider-man 2 for me if i'm just picking between them so i'm off on that and here's where i'm off on the animated films especially if you look at which i did if you look back at my notes for those two films, I have way more interesting things to say.

1:08:46Adam Kempenaar:And in my mind, deeper things to say about across the spider verse than I do into the spider verse across the spider verse connected with me and resonated with me in a way more meaningful way than into the spider verse did. Now, maybe, maybe I just saw it on a better day and I was more in tune to what was happening and I was paying closer attention, but I can't change that. I had the deeper reaction to across the spider verse. So I feel like in both cases, I'm, I'm going against the grain a little bit.

1:09:20Josh Larsen:I think you're right. That consensus would stay, would say not overall, but between the live action Spider-Man two, I'm not sure. I don't have a good sense for which, um, spider verse is considered better. It might be across as you're saying, I'm going to lean on, and I know it's not in the language here we just presented, but somewhere, maybe it was in Slack, somewhere I think Sam used the word definitive. And I'm latching onto that because I found it very helpful. It's going to help me weave a path towards my choice here. I think one of the Spider-Verse films are probably better as films, just in terms of the inventiveness, the craft, and the live action have these, but the level at which it's operating, inventiveness, craft, visual elements, and balance of action and humor.

1:10:19Josh Larsen:One of those is probably the better film, but I'm going to stick with definitive. And for me, neither of those is possible. Those are the movies we need now where we've been churning our way through superheroes, let alone Spider-Man for decades now. We need those types of movies now that are rethinking the entire superhero project in very smart and entertaining ways, not exhaustive ways, which we've also seen elsewhere. But definitive, for me, I go back to live action. And I do, as well as you, go back to the first Spider-Man. I just think it's where, and maybe we should get back to our list soon because I think we'll be talking about this with one of the picks.

1:11:02Josh Larsen:it's where what I had been waiting for my whole life to see on the big screen and hoping they wouldn't mess it up. And not only did they not mess it up, but they actually made it work. And so that's why I'm going to go back to the first, first Spider-Man.

1:11:22Adam Kempenaar:That is where I'm going to vote as well. Spider-Man, we would like to know your thoughts. Can't wait to see how this one comes out. You can vote in that poll and leave a comment. We'll share your feedback here in a couple of weeks. Vote at filmspotting.net.

1:11:40Josh Larsen:30 years ago, an island off Manhattan almost brought down New York City. Who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors? Or will you trust the people five miles overseas? This is a story about neighbors turning on each other. And what happens when a forgotten place decides it's had enough. We reached for a feeling that exists in this city. But we're not stopping, are we? I'm Ben Nadeff-Haffrey. And for my new series on revisionist history, I took a deep dive into Staten Island's attempt to secede from New York City in the 1990s. and what it all has to do with the politics of resentment that dominate America today.

1:12:26Josh Larsen:Listen to Revisionist History, The Staten Island Problem, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:12:38Josh Larsen:Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back. I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode's a little different, but it all involves music and conversation with some of my favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl, Leve, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolfe, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season, I've sat down with Joshua Homme, Sarah McLachlan, John Legend, and more. Check out my new episode with Phineas.

1:13:11Adam Kempenaar:So I went home and I asked Billie if she wanted to sing it. She immediately made it her own thing. No fair.

1:13:25Josh Larsen:You really know how to make me cry when you give me those oceans. So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We've all been there. We've had seasons that have shaken everything. The question is, what remains when the shaking stops?

1:13:48Adam Kempenaar:Hi, I'm Gary Valenciano, and on my podcast, Unshaken with Gary V., I sit down with amazing personalities and we talk about the seasons that nearly broke them, the lows that carried them to their highs. Listen to Unshaken with Gary V. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:14:14Josh Larsen:The Declaration, which is full of these beautifully rendered sentences and paragraphs about Enlightenment ideals, does also have this darker history to it. Why is it important for the darker part of the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution? Why is it important that Americans know about it?

1:14:35Adam Kempenaar:Well, if we don't understand the full context in which our nation was founded, we won't understand the full context in which our nation now finds itself.

1:14:47Josh Larsen:I'm Rebecca Nagel, Goheen Dawadon, Jalika Yetli Kei La, citizen of Cherokee Nation.

1:14:53Adam Kempenaar:Are you guys big Chiefs fans? Hell yeah.

1:14:56Josh Larsen:This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:15:20Adam Kempenaar:Let's do then transition, Josh, very smoothly back into our top five. And honestly, based on the conversation we just had, I don't know that it could go any smoother, at least with my top two picks. But we have a listener voicemail came in just under the wire. And I think it will help us because it will make this list feel complete. It will allow us to feel like we gave every Spider-Man his due. It turns out that there is some love for Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man. And it comes from a bona fide expert on Spider-Man. And let's go ahead and hear the credentials and the choice of Drew Jeffries.

1:16:08Josh Larsen:Hi, Film Spotting. Long-time listener Drew Jeffries here. So I teach a university class on superhero films. I'm also the author of an academic book called Comic Book Film Style. But perhaps more pertinent to this week's top five, I also have that meme with the two Spider-Men pointing at each other, literally tattooed on my body. I have one Spider-Man on each thigh. So when I found out y 'all were doing your top five Spider-Man scenes, I knew I had to send in a quick note. Now, I have love for every iteration of Spider-Man, but the Andrew Garfield of a stone Amazing Spider-Man is actually at the top of my list.

1:16:45Josh Larsen:In part, I just find their chemistry as a couple to be so undeniable. I'd actually put them at number one on my personal list of movie couples, full stop. And no offense, but you're wrong.

1:17:04Josh Larsen:but I'm going with a more traditional Spidey scene for my pick which is a swing scene across New York City this one comes towards the end of the movie Spidey's hurt he needs a bit of help to swing over to Oscorp to save the day and wouldn't you know it the cranes reconstructing the city all start slowly turning inward giving our guys something to swing from cue the water works for me every damn time superhero movies are so bound up with the post 9-11 moment but this scene really beautifully articulates the united we stand ethos instead of just restaging the attacks themselves as movies like batman begins or the avengers or man of steel would do anyway i can't wait to hear your picks.

1:17:51Adam Kempenaar:Thanks, guys. There it is. Andrew Garfield, Mark Webb, Spider-Man's there. They're not going to come up in any of our top two picks, but Drew did get that choice in. And I don't think you can argue with his credentials. I think he makes a compelling choice there. And I said it earlier, Josh, that even the bad ones, and I don't think the amazing Spider-Man, the first one is necessarily one of the bad ones. It may not be one of the better ones, but it's not a it's not a terrible movie but it has a moment like that and drew is right it has a moment like that a nice visual moment like that where those cranes come together and you go oh a spider-man movie can give me a nice a nice touch like that with that character and it speaks to what you said earlier that intimate connection between spider-man and the citizenry of new york

1:18:42Josh Larsen:Well, thank you for the voicemail, Drew, but where's the photo? I mean, I'm not saying I don't believe you, but when we did our top five movie tattoos, we would get, we were flooded with braver souls who have gotten their movie tattoos. They would send pictures.

1:19:00Adam Kempenaar:Oh, I bet it's coming now.

1:19:01Josh Larsen:Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about something for the FilmSpotting family discord. Can't wait to see it up there, Drew. I like it. Thank you. Drew, you know the email address.

1:19:10Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. You know the email address. We do appreciate the feedback. Let's get to our final two choices, Josh, your number two Spider-Man scene.

1:19:19Josh Larsen:Let's get back to praise for 2002's Spider-Man and it's the upside down kiss. When I started rewatching and researching this pick, Adam, because I knew it was going to be on my list, I really expected to find out that the scene or at least the image, at least this image was pulled from a comic book run at one point that I wasn't aware of. But apparently not. What I did find was a 2022 Ringer article that was a deep dive just on this scene, written by Jake Kring Schrieffels. And in there, he talks a little bit about how the scene came about. Doesn't mention that it appeared in the comics, a comic run earlier.

1:20:04Josh Larsen:Maybe a listener might know of something similar that they can share. We'll link to this as well if you want all the details on this deep dive. But basically, the moment arose after director Sam Raimi scrapped plans to film a fairly standard Kiss atop Rockefeller Center. And so they were looking for another option. And second unit director and storyboard artist, Doug Leffler, thought about some earlier jobs he'd been on, earlier work he had done that featured characters falling into the frame. and so that was in his mind and he started sketching out possibilities and he sketched out the basics for this scene so this is toby mcguire's peter lowering himself next to kristin dunce mary jane in this rainy alley you have a knack for getting in trouble you have a knack for saving my life i think i have a superhero stalker i was in the neighborhood and i can't really say much better why this works than what Kareem Schrieffels does in this article.

1:21:06Josh Larsen:So let me quote here if this is in the ringer. Within the context of the story, the scene is a cathartic release for Peter Parker, a rare opportunity to embrace his dual identity and be vulnerable with the girl he loves. On a much larger scale, it's one of the most iconic and romantic kisses in Hollywood history, a unique and asymmetrical composition of rain-soaked interlocked lips never seen before on the big screen. So I have this at number two. I do think this is another element of the character is the romantic nature. And the only thing I'll say about Brand New Day is that is definitely explored.

1:21:45Josh Larsen:If this is something you love about the Spider-Man and Peter Parker character, that is definitely explored in the new movie and Brand New Day, what that means for this iteration of the character. but here yeah it is the the composition and what it means in terms of character and you have when you think of this in terms of all the versions of spider-man it is such a unique i mean this idea of spider-man presents so many unique visual possibilities it would be easy to just stop there and say the things we started with as kids like wouldn't it be cool to see him swinging across the screen. We got it.

1:22:23Josh Larsen:We're good. But to take that next step and imagine ways for those visual possibilities to echo thematic ideas, to echo emotional beats, to capture character qualities, that's when you're really working at a higher level of artistry and in a single shot, really. I mean, there's a lot going on here that goes into this. I think Kirsten Dunst makes this a pretty sexy scene in the way she plays it actually. Um, so the actors are definitely involved in making this work, but, um, just in a single shot in the framing to be able to invest it, infuse it with so much emotion and thematic purpose, uh, for me makes it, you know, could easily be the number one for a lot of people probably is their number one Spider-Man scene or moment.

1:23:15Josh Larsen:Uh, I have it here at number two. Yeah.

1:23:18Adam Kempenaar:Tough not to put on my list. It's an honorable mention. It's what I was trying to say, or we'll go back to with your number five. I believe the stopping the train moment. There are some moments there are reason reasons why you consider them Mount Rushmore type moments. They belong on that list. And from the train, Josh, it's not just them, them holding him, but even when he, when he faints in their, their hands, right. Hold him, hold him up. And here, that image is so vivid, and I understand why The Ringer has devoted an entire article to it. I think for a lot of people, you're right. It probably is the number one scene.

1:23:56Adam Kempenaar:That said, everything you just articulated about it in terms of composition being so important and taking the unique visual possibilities of a spider character so perfectly, even better, I think, applies to my number two. it's like the filmmakers here in spider-man across the the spider-verse said let's take that moment and and maybe they did josh because it also involves characters who are upside down they took that moment and said how can we extend this even more extend the the emotional and thematic possibilities of that imagery. And when you think about these films, so the moment is, is Miles and Gwen at the Williamsburg clock tower in across the Spider-Verse in, in both of the films, there's, there's plenty of examples of impressive animation, thrilling imagery, great action moments, but also just great compositions where you recognize the artists responsible for these films are elevating the craft.

1:25:13Adam Kempenaar:And as you said earlier, talking about the poll questions, that maybe in some ways these are even just better films. But for me, the single scene that best harnesses those capabilities is this scene. It's a reunion scene. It's been, I think, like a year and a half since these two characters last saw each other. So they're catching up. they're they're feeling each other out but they also know each other so well they know each other in a way like great friends do and and people who are connected the way they are they they know each other uniquely there's also that other dynamic at play where miles has a crush on on gwen daniel pemberton's score is so lovely during the sequence they're high above the city they're they're in this fantasy sort of realm and it everything about it captures the way you feel when you're seeing someone special to you who you haven't seen in a long time and the director justin k thompson he seems to want to keep it grounded in character it's not about showing off with the animation but it is about trying to heighten that that sensation this this fantasy sort of feeling this special feeling that these two characters have when, when they're together.

1:26:34Adam Kempenaar:And the first time we see them, it is kind of subtle, right? Because they're, they're vertical in the frame. The first time we see them together, it feels like a normal shot. So you and your dad, it's a little off because the horizon is also vertical. We're not used to seeing horizons be vertical. And we, we can kind of start to put together that, Oh, they, they must be walking sideways. In a way that only characters like they could do. And then when Gwen starts walking backwards along the dome and we with the camera follow her almost like we're on a roller coaster, but a gentle roller coaster that's going over the edge with her.

1:27:17Adam Kempenaar:It's one of those kind of take your breath away moments, but not again, not in a roller coaster drop. Take your breath away just kind of eases you into it. It's it's really something. And then there's that incredible 180 degree move that that follows her as she moves to the underside of the ledge and she's standing upside down. And I honestly just love the the tilt up then that we get where Miles is standing on top and she's sitting up upside down. And it's still keeping some distance between them because I think it's still about he is still trying to figure out how to kind of move into her space and and how to how to fully reconnect with each other.

1:27:59Adam Kempenaar:So there's still some distance between them. But then he does move closer and he joins her and they spend the next the next few minutes together talking while sitting upside down.

1:28:09Josh Larsen:I'm just a really emotionally intelligent guy beyond my years.

1:28:17Adam Kempenaar:some of the lines of dialogue in in that scene while they're sitting there or just about to sit there together i think really explain the motivation for the sequence and the way it's it's portrayed at one point miles says well maybe some things are supposed to be just for us and she says how many people could you talk to about this stuff speaking to again that special connection, how they are. Obviously, they're different and there aren't a lot of people who have their special skills and they need each other. And if they are then these types of figures who are going to have an experience that the experience is just for them and they're going to talk about things that only they can talk about, will it make sense that they would do it in an environment and in a way that only they can do, that only they can have in a moment that only they can share, which is them high above the city sitting upside down.

1:29:24Adam Kempenaar:So the whole sequence for me evokes that, that they're having together this singular experience that is just for them. And then because of that, we as viewers, it almost feels like a privilege that we get to be a part of it. It feels that intimate that we get to sit there and, and listen in on the conversation that they get to have. I did find a place, Josh, where the production designer said, and I should find his full name. His last name is O 'Keefe, but he talks about the artist, Peter Chan, who did the majority of work on, on the sequence. He says he did such a fantastic job. Peter is an artist that we traditionally use for the most colorful scenes possible because he has this ability to handle a wide variety of colors for the scene however i challenged him to work with a more limited palette and pay very close attention to the sensitivity of the sequence there are lots and lots of very subtle but huge shifts happening here the city never feels too flat or boring although it feels magical and romantic it's not telling you directly the visuals are letting you feel the romanticism of the moment quietly and i think that i think that does get to part of why that that scene works Again, for all of its showiness in some way, if you think about the way the camera is following the characters and that upside down things are happening, it is so quiet.

1:30:45Adam Kempenaar:At the end of the day, it is still such a quiet, beautiful scene.

1:30:49Josh Larsen:Yeah, there is a real sunset seeping through the clouds sense of the color here that that quote brings to mind. If listeners have not seen this scene, you really got to check it out. We'll link to it in our show notes as we will for, I think, all the scenes for our picks. Because it's kind of hard to describe, right? But for all the reasons you laid out and a few more, I'll get to. This is why I have being upside down with Spider-Gwen as my number one. I have it ahead of the kiss. It's just mesmerizing and moving. astute listeners will also remember I had it actually as my most moving moment at our 2023 wrap party and so obviously it was going to be on this list it was just a matter of where do I rank it with the others and once I watched all of them again I had to put it at the top I do think to your point about the dialogue Shamik Moore as Miles here and Haley Steinfeld as Spider-Gwen I I do think they're giving really good performances and the character animation with him moving his hand slightly towards her is just so astute.

1:31:56Josh Larsen:So in terms of performance, it's wonderful, but it really is a lot of what you were talking about. The visuals accentuating those emotions. I even like, I think the only thing I'll mention that you didn't, I don't think you mentioned Gwen's ponytail, how she puts her hair in a ponytail at the start. But then when the whole screen flips, essentially she looks like she's sitting upright, but her ponytail is poking way up in the air because of gravity. Right. So it's just, it's clever. It's also orientating for us as the audience is it's like, it's okay. It's functional, but also like really kind of funny and cute.

1:32:35Josh Larsen:Um, and then, and then to have the skyline in the background, the upside down with that happening, it's like, okay. hey, what's happening here? But okay, I think I know what's happening here. And your brain is registering all that. And it does, you know, it's dizzying and oddly beautiful, but it does speak to what you're talking about. Their unique experiences. These are two teens whose worlds have been completely upended, literally and, you know, thematically turned upside down. And this is what they're talking about here. the stresses, the pressures of having these powers and what it means for their family relationships and their personal relationships.

1:33:17Josh Larsen:And to have that represented by the imagery alone. I didn't think the movies could find a way to top the comic book cool and emotionality of the upside-down kiss. But I think this scene from across the Spider-Verse manages it. So, yeah, number one for me. 30 years ago, an island off Manhattan almost brought down New York City. Who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors? Or will you trust the people five miles overseas? This is a story about neighbors turning on each other. And what happens when a forgotten place decides it's had enough. We reached for a feeling that exists in this city. But we're not stopping, are we?

1:34:12Josh Larsen:I'm Ben Nadeff-Haffrey. And for my new series on revisionist history, I took a deep dive into Staten Island's attempt to secede from New York City in the 1990s. And what it all has to do with the politics of resentment that dominate America today. Listen to Revisionist History, The Staten Island Problem, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:34:40Josh Larsen:Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back. I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode is a little different, but it all involves music and conversation with some of my favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl, Leve, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolfe, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season I've sat down with Joshua Homme, Sarah McLachlan, John Legend, and more. Check out my new episode with Phineas.

1:35:14Adam Kempenaar:So I went home and I asked Billie if she wanted to sing it. She immediately made it her own thing. No fair.

1:35:28Josh Larsen:You really know how to make me cry when you give me those oceans. So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Declaration, which is full of these beautifully rendered sentences and paragraphs about Enlightenment ideals, does also have this darker history to it. Why is it important for the darker part of the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution? Why is it important that Americans know about it? Well, if we don't understand the full context in which our nation was founded, we won't understand the full context in which our nation now finds itself.

1:36:15Josh Larsen:I'm Rebecca Nagle, Goheen Dawadon, Jalakayetli, Gayla, citizen of Cherokee Nation.

1:36:22Adam Kempenaar:Are you guys big Chiefs fans? Hell yeah.

1:36:24Josh Larsen:This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:37:02Josh Larsen:broke them, the lows that carried them to their highs.

1:37:07Adam Kempenaar:Listen to Unshaken with Gary Vee on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I guess I'm proving here why I did pick Spider-Man 2002, though, as my definitive Spider-Man in the poll question, because when it came down to going with a number one scene, I did resort back to Sam Raimi's 2002 Spider-Man. And I went with Peter discovering his powers. And I do think there's a lot here, Josh, in this scene that reflects, here again, Sam Raimi's sensibilities as a director and how he applies them to this character, why these movies work so well. starting with Peter looking down at his hand and that extreme close-up of his fingertips with the microscopic hairs it literally makes his superpowers tactile which is something we complain about is these superhero movies not feeling that way not feeling real not feeling tangible here's where I said I was going to maybe mention the amazing spider-man 2 again the movie I needed to catch up with.

1:38:23Adam Kempenaar:And I watched it as my last film so I could cross off all these Spider-Man movies. It's definitely the worst of all of them, I would say. Without revisiting all of them, I would say it's the worst of them. And I bring it up in this context, Josh, because with my respects to our listener, Drew, who says that these movies on the whole work and that he really likes Gwen and Peter as Emma Stone and Andrew Garfield portray them. I don't really have a problem with them, but I did spend most of the movie making that face. Dennis Leary makes the whole movie when he appears as the ghost of policemen past who just appears every now and again with that scolding face where he just forgot about him.

1:39:12Adam Kempenaar:He just, he just appears and scowls at, I hope he got paid well to do that. like for just one day of work, just stand in front of a green screen or whatever and scowl at Tom Holland or nobody. He was probably scowling it or not Tom Holland, Andrew Garfield. He probably was scowling at nobody. I do hope Dennis Leary got paid well for that day. That's how I felt mostly disappointed watching this movie. And my biggest disappointment was maybe that at no point did I feel not just during the set pieces, the major set pieces, but during any single moment of Spider-Man being Spider-Man at no point did i feel like i believed it at every at every turn the effects jolted me out of my suspension of disbelief it it it felt like they had to apply some kind of computer computerized moment computer generated effect at every single leap or wall climb whatever it was.

1:40:12Adam Kempenaar:And it took me out of it at every turn. And here, Ramey is signaling to you, these hands are about to walk up the wall and you're going to watch it. It's going to be great. This is a fun sequence. It's a funny sequence, but I think it's so memorable in part too, because of the layers that Ramey brings to it. You don't need a PhD in child psychology to read Spider-Man as a metaphor for puberty and adolescence with sudden physical transformations and the way that can be scary for young boys. And not surprisingly with Rainey, this sequence starts with some ominousness. It's in this dark kind of alley out of the sun.

1:40:58Adam Kempenaar:And he looks up and sees the spider in the web crawling around and there's barbed wire right next to it. And the Danny Elfman score even heightens that a little bit. And then when Peter initially starts crawling up the wall slowly, it it doesn't feel like this joyous thing. It actually feels like something out of a horror movie where a scary monster starts crawling slowly toward the main character and then picks up speed. But then once he fully realizes what he can do, that's where the excitement begins.

1:41:33Adam Kempenaar:and i suppose watching that sequence josh the only part for me watching it again multiple times you could be really nitpicky about is how real a couple of those jumps felt from the aerial shots but otherwise i bought every single amazing move peter yeah it holds off there it completely holds up and the webs and the web slinging feel real and don't feel like any kind of computer generated effect. He's a kid acting like a kid. Like you believe a kid would act discovering these powers and going back to where we began, every single one of us who aspired to be Spider-Man, who dreamed about this moment, suddenly actually getting bitten by the radioactive spider that when we put on our underoos and thought, if only I could actually sling webs and crawl up the walls.

1:42:28In this moment, Ramey brought that to life for us.

1:42:32Adam Kempenaar:He delivered the confusion, but also the exhilaration that we imagined when we were kids. And I suppose that is a big part of why it will always be. This movie, that scene in particular, that's a big reason why this will be the definitive Spider-Man for me.

1:42:47Josh Larsen:Yeah, I remember watching this in a press screening. It wasn't at the Lake Street Screen Room, but in a press screening. And my immediate reaction when this scene happened was they did it. Because you'd been hearing about this movie being in development for so long. And I didn't know if it could work until we saw the scene of Peter actually trying out his powers. And they pulled it off. It absolutely worked. It was thrilling. It was funny, as the character should be. all the things you said. It's my number six. It's the top honorable mention for me. I think it captures the genial enthusiasm, which is a core trait of the character as well.

1:43:31Josh Larsen:Sometimes some of these movies try a little too hard to force that into fights here and there, but it's perfect for this sequence where Peter's response is, yes, confused, maybe a little nervous, but mostly this genial enthusiasm. And you mentioned the Elfman score. The best part of it is when he starts crawling up that wall, the way the music inches up the wall with him, with him. So yeah, just a, just a really great scene. And my top honorable mention.

1:44:01Adam Kempenaar:Those are our top five Spider-Man scenes. We would love to hear your picks or any other comments about the show. You can email us feedback at filmspotting.net. Once again, you can find all of our choices and links to the scenes at filmspotting.net just by clicking on lists right there at the top of the page. Josh, you did list one of your honorable mentions for us already. Do you have any others you would like to throw in?

1:44:25Josh Larsen:Well, I feel like I should give a bone to the Andrew Garfield fans. I mean, you know, Drew came to his defense, but you've just you've been scarred by your amazing Spider-Man 2 experience. So how about this? And it speaks to some of the things we've been talking about. But in The Amazing Spider-Man, there's a rescue sequence where Spider-Man convinces a kid who is in a car that's dangling from a bridge. And he's trying to convince him to climb out and come to him, come to safety. And the kid is scared. And what he does to convince him is he takes his masks and gives it to the kid and says, it'll make you strong.

1:45:02Josh Larsen:And I think that it's a really nice moment that also speaks to the intimacy that we've touched on. So I would say that for the Andrew Garfield run, I feel like I need to acknowledge the Spider-Men reunion that takes place in Spider-Man No Way Home. I think that's not a super successful, I mean, I liked it okay, but a super successful Spider-Man movie. And maybe it's a little hokey that all of the previous Spider-Men come to join Tom Holland. But if you are a completist or you have a long history with this character, I'm sorry. It's kind of cool. I mean, what they asked the actors to do is kind of lame, but the idea is cool enough.

1:45:44Josh Larsen:Okay. So let's say that the opening of Spider-Man across the universe is essentially a mini Spider-Gwen movie. And it's wonderful. You talked about the color work in the scene we both picked with Miles and Spider-Gwen. But this, I think of that sequence where she's having that fight with her father and the background walls just start dripping like watercolors. Incredible. Yeah, I think I'll go with those for my honorable mentions.

1:46:14Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, we have covered a lot of the same ground because I already mentioned to the run your list, the upside down kiss scene, stopping the train. Spider Gwen was one that stood out to me that opening. and you know what i do or i am willing to give a nod to peter's reuniting in the latest spider-man movie which one is that again no way home is that what we're calling that no way home yes from from 2021 in terms of one or two that you didn't mention i do have a moment that i called out during our Spider-Man conversation, our 20 year anniversary conversation where Aunt May chides Willem Dafoe, who I think is great, chides Willem Dafoe's Norman Osborn.

1:47:04Adam Kempenaar:I can't remember exactly what he says, but he says something that, that she gives him a little slap on the wrist and the way she does it and the way he reacts to it, he, he doesn't like, he doesn't like the way she puts him in his place. He's not used to that is, is really, is really great into the spider verse. I mean, this is one of those iconic Mount Rushmore moments perhaps as well, but the leap of faith is another great visual and, and thematic moment as well. I thought Josh that I would, and I, I did the research here. I thought that I would be able to find something from, this was going to be my off the beaten path surprise Josh pick.

1:47:46Adam Kempenaar:you know you went with the i should have known it was coming now it's a trend but just as you went with the theme music or the opening theme moment i thought here's where i'm gonna surprise josh i'm gonna even though this isn't that risky here or whatever that much of a surprise i'm gonna go with a spider-man moment from one of the avengers movies or captain i thought about that Yeah. Right. And I went back and watched every scene I could get my hand on. I thought surely one of these scenes, the relationship between him and Tony Stark. Yeah. They have such a bond. is fun in that battle. They have such a bond.

1:48:25Adam Kempenaar:And who doesn't love Tony Stark? Who doesn't love Robert Downey Jr.? I'm surely going to find a scene that I love. It's going to jog my memory and I'm going to feel like I have to put this in my top five. And not only did I not find a scene from Civil War or Infinity War or Endgame that made my top five, this is the honorable mention I'm giving it is that I really couldn't find one. A single scene from any of those movies, Josh. Your honorable mention

1:48:50Josh Larsen:is that he does appear in the Avengers movies. He appears in those movies.

1:48:54Adam Kempenaar:So maybe that's some feedback I'm looking for from listeners in general, but you can give us any feedback on the list. But specifically, is there something, is there a key scene for many of those? And I know there's the death scene and there's the coming back to life scene, but those don't stand out to me as great scenes.

1:49:14Josh Larsen:In the moment and in the context, I think they're very effective. I think his return is quite moving. And I think his presence, what he brings just even as a character to that battle scene, it's like at an airport or something like that, right?

1:49:27Adam Kempenaar:Yeah.

1:49:28Josh Larsen:In Civil War, I think, there's some nice levity there with what else we're getting. So I think he's quite good and a welcome presence in all those movies. I just didn't have anything from them that could rival the picks that we made.

1:49:45Adam Kempenaar:Okay. Once again, our top five Spider-Man scenes, email us yours feedback at film spotting dot net. Josh, that's our show.

1:49:55Josh Larsen:If you want to find Adam in the show on social media, you can find him on Instagram, Facebook, Letterboxd, YouTube, and blue sky at film spotting. I'm at those places at Larson on film. We are independently produced and listener supported. You can support the show for 20 % off right now by joining the film spotting family at film spotting family.com. Just use the code summer to get your 20 % off. If you do that, you'll be able to listen to the show early and ad free. You'll also get monthly bonus episodes, a weekly newsletter and access to the entire show archive for show t-shirts and other merch.

1:50:32Josh Larsen:Go to film spotting.net slash shop out in limited release.

1:50:37Adam Kempenaar:this weekend is I Want Your Sex, the new movie from director Greg Araki with Olivia Wilde and Cooper Hoffman. Friend of the show, Mitchell Beaupre at Letterboxd says Araki's sex-filled riff on something like The Lady Eve or Ball of Fire. Okay, I was interested. Now I'm more interested. Boyhood is being re-released, unfortunately, only in Alamo Drafthouse theaters and other independent chains. It does say other independent chains, but not one near me, Josh. I can't see that beloved film of mine back in theaters. The kidnapping of Arabella is a new film from Italian writer, director, Carolina Cavalli, friend of the show.

1:51:15Adam Kempenaar:Robert Daniels says, and you can't say this isn't intriguing. What if Roy Anderson made Thelma and Louise? I'm going to need a few minutes.

1:51:26Josh Larsen:Just take a minute to process that one.

1:51:28Adam Kempenaar:Okay. We know Roy Anderson's worked fairly well. So yeah, sheep in the box. This is the latest from Hirakazu Koreta. Big year for sheep at the movies. A near future set film about a family raising a humanoid robot as a son at the music box. Koreta. I am, I am interested. Out wide is Spider-Man brand new day. So next week you can't expect more Spider-Man talk. We will get to the latest Spider-Man movie starring Tom Holland. next week in the film spotting feed that's our show on Friday Monday is episode 3 of the movie Deathmatch it is a lot of Spidey sorry hopefully you'll be interested great conversation though Matt Singer and Daisy Rosario about Spider-Man 2 and into the Spider-Verse see which one gets crowned the definitive Spider-Man movie it's going to be one of those two host Chris Klemmick has to be the judge and make that tough call and Josh that's it because it's break time for the next picture show and film spotting SVU I guess they've earned it.

1:52:32Adam Kempenaar:Sure.

1:52:33Josh Larsen:Yeah, they do. They do deserve a break. Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Dessau and Sam Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar.

1:52:54Adam Kempenaar:Thanks for listening. This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

1:53:10Josh Larsen:30 years ago, an island off Manhattan almost brought down New York City. Who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors? Who will you trust the people five miles overseas? This is a story about neighbors turning on each other, and what happens when a forgotten place decides it's had enough. But we're not stopping, are we? Listen to Revisionist History, The Staten Island Problem on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 150 years ago, they were hunting us down to kill us, and now they're hunting down immigrants to deport them. This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment.

1:53:59Josh Larsen:Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:54:11Adam Kempenaar:Bill, why is my eye twitching?

1:54:13Josh Larsen:Does this mean I'm in perimenopause? Where's my phone? Juliana, maybe we can ask an actual human. Yes, because I have questions and I bet you do too. Like, is it normal to sleep in separate bedrooms? We do that and I still need to know why my poop's been green. We've got actual people answering these exact questions. Listen to Bill and Juliana.

1:54:32Adam Kempenaar:The podcast.

1:54:33Josh Larsen:On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is Michael Rappaport and my podcast, the I Am Rappaport Stereo Podcast, is unlike anyone you've ever heard. If you're looking for strong opinions about sports, entertainment, politics, pop culture, and whatever else catches my attention, then subscribe now. This kid Jafar Jackson should absolutely, positively get nominated for his portrayal as Michael Jackson. Listen to I Am Rap Report on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.