Weapons Review and It’s Never Over, Jeff Buckley

16:07Adam Kempenaar:It's not just that each one of them, Josh, each one of these characters is dealing with individual pain and trying to forge ahead. There are lots of movies about characters who are suffering. Here we have very lonely, isolated, hurt characters who consistently, and I would say arguably always unintentionally, hurt other people. Not only are none of them bad, we're usually sympathetic to their circumstances. We understand, but their pain leads to choices and a spiraling that causes other pain. I'll give you just two examples. The first two characters we meet, Justine, the teacher, Julia Garner's character.

16:54Adam Kempenaar:She is certainly a victim here. She is not someone to blame for anything that has happened. She's not to blame for this tragedy, despite how some people feel or think, have to believe. They're clinging to this notion that she must be to blame because they need someone to blame. She's not a witch, but she chooses to self-medicate excessively with alcohol. It's an issue that we learned she had before this tragedy. and selfishly, again, understandably, but selfishly, she brings another character down with her. And that character makes their own choices. I'm not discounting that, but it's a cycle.

17:35Adam Kempenaar:And what do his choices lead to? Another person's unintended pain and disappointment. Think about, Josh, all that ensues in this film, all the dominoes that fall that you can trace back to Justine at the bar. And of course, before that, the tragedy, but Justine at the bar insisting, just have one drink with me, please. Yeah. A right drink. Yeah. And, and then we go to Archer, the pain of losing his son not only causes him to lash out at Justine amplifying her pain, which leads to her going to the bar and meeting with that person and wanting to have just one real drink. But Craig shows us one interaction, one interaction with Archer's wife, her saying goodbye to go to work.

18:20Adam Kempenaar:He's sleeping. He's waking up in his son's bed. It's clear from that one terse interaction that their marriage is completely on the ropes since Matthew's disappearance. Rather than turning to each other, rather than relying on each other, Archer, anyway, has completely turned inward. He is, understandably, here again, but selfishly, let the pain completely consume him. And he's completely detached from his marriage. And I think there's a corollary with every other main character. Certainly every other character who gets to chapter. Save one. And I won't get into that because of spoilers. And it even connects back to the character who we shall not speak about because then we're really getting into spoilers.

19:05Adam Kempenaar:or is that villain character as I'm identifying them. But that connection to Josh even confirms further for me that Crager explores the way pain consumes and controls us, how it can be weaponized and the collateral damage it causes.

19:21Josh Larsen:I think you're onto something that I was trying to piece together. And this is helpful in that vein about, um, the notion of parasites in a way and feeding off others. And these characters aren't really, yeah, it's a motif. There are characters watching a nature documentary and we see a good 30 seconds of it. And it's about a form of parasites. And it's not that the characters you're describing are necessarily meaning to feed off others, but I like how you're talking about the recurring, the transferring of pain. And, and I think that fits. Um, yeah, the structure I think is, is very intricate and smart and clever and effective.

19:56Josh Larsen:I want to re return to it. But first I want to say that I like what you were talking about in terms of appreciating the experience that you're given, not necessarily, um, putting all your eggs in the basket of the allegory. And I wanted to return to that because I'm not, despite what I said at the top, I'm not as enthusiastic about weapons because it does function for me as an allegory for school shootings. Um, I mostly appreciated this as an expertly constructed, terrifying, like heart thumping, uh, horror movie. And then if I can afterwards, when I'm going home, trying to catch my breath and I missed my stop on the train, can I point out because I was so discombobulated by this movie, I went one stop too far.

20:46Josh Larsen:Uh, if after that great experience, I can then have that, Oh, but it could also mean this, then it's a bonus. So just wanted to kind of like agree with you. It's kind of prioritizing that.

20:58Adam Kempenaar:And real quick, my version of that was seeing it late afternoon and coming home and sitting at dinner. And I was being a bad husband and father where Sarah looked across the table at one point and said, you seem to have something on your mind. And I had to be honest and say, I just kind of can't shake the movie I just saw. I have a few things on my mind. Yeah.

21:18Josh Larsen:Yes. And I'm never going into the basement again. Oh, right. I already hate basements. You're there right now, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. So we were, oh, the structure. I wanted to ask you. So a question I had in my notes, and I think this might have already come up on the FilmSpotting Family Discord, a listener who had seen the movie. I think that's where I saw it. And they were talking about the chapters and what that might have added. And I did actually have that in my note. did the structure add anything? And where I landed after thinking about it some more, yes, the things you talked about, absolutely, allowing us to make these connections.

21:57Josh Larsen:I think what it does, it also kind of excruciatingly, but inventively doles out the pieces of this increasingly terrifying puzzle. I think it's effective that way. But also, I do think that it allows us to get a fuller sense of this traumatized community. I found myself forming more intimate connections with each character and learning about their foibles, to your point, in a way I probably would not have if this was all focused on Justine, say, or all focused on Archer. Those others would have been more supporting characters. And by making everyone a supporting character, I felt like I knew this, this place, this town better than I would have otherwise.

22:41Josh Larsen:And so I appreciated that. Um, and I also think, you know, it allows the actors to really dig in and get not scenes, not even just one scene where they get to be the main focus, but an entire section. And I think Brolin is excellent. And Garner is incredible as this exasperated basket case. You described her well. She is not the villain, but boy, she's making almost every wrong choice you could given the situation she's in. And I think Garner is

23:12Adam Kempenaar:incredible in the role. Yeah, she's very good because she is making all those wrong choices, but we see her as flawed. We see her as human. And I think we understand, at least I understood, that she was thinking about her students, that she was making choices that weren't here again. She wasn't making choices that were driven by selfishness, but her pain was leading her to make what often were very bad decisions. I was at first a little bit confounded by the structure, Josh, because I was so interested in those first two characters and especially Justine, especially Garner and her performance, too.

23:53Adam Kempenaar:And once we started going from Justine to Archer and then to Paul, which is the Alden Ehrenreich character who is also great, by the way, he's very good. But once I went from him and then I went, I think we go from him maybe to James, who is a character we do meet earlier. Again, all these stories overlap. And he's someone who is asking for money and he's looking for a fix. There may be another character in between, but we do meet James at one point. And the point here is, regardless of what order they go in, I started feeling like, okay. You're right. He is being very clever about how he's doling out information.

24:39Adam Kempenaar:And I almost felt like Craig was being too clever. You're being a little too deliberate. You're being a little bit too precocious about how you're doling out the information. And I, maybe to the movie's credit, Josh, I was so invested in where the story was going that I wanted to get some of the resolution a little quicker, and I felt like he was going down some paths that were distractions. But I want to go back to why I really felt that way and why I felt like some of those storylines were kind of, at first, I felt like it was the movie spinning its wheels a little bit. I started to feel, sitting in my seat, I started to feel myself become a little disengaged from the story.

25:23Adam Kempenaar:And as I said, it really was because I was so tied to those characters, Justine and Archer, And I think that that's because the movie fundamentally is about them. It understands that at the core of this film, 17 kids disappear all from one teacher's classroom. And he's the one who says it. Why only hers? For different reasons, this is what she's also trying to learn, what she's trying to understand. So they're both trying to understand this central mystery. And we try not to play screenwriter here and rewrite the movie, but there's a part of me that wonders if this movie would be just as effective, if not more effective, if you sort of played the movie straight and let Justine be the main character, let Archer be a co-lead or a supporting character and have their storylines intersect.

26:21Adam Kempenaar:But what we would miss in that, Josh, and how I ultimately came around is at some point, at some point when we got into those chapters, what clicked for me is what I articulated earlier. What clicked for me was, oh, there's a reason why we're meeting all these characters. And the through line is the pain and the transference of pain. Yes, it's also cleverly giving us new information. And we're starting to put together the pieces of what's really happening here. but it's the transference of pain. And that, that for me then made me understand what, what Crager I thought was really up to. And it justified it for me.

27:00Adam Kempenaar:Now I'll also add quickly, I saw this today because it popped up in my feed, letterboxd published it. He really is just a huge fan of Magnolia. And I swear to you, the first time Alden Ehrenreich popped up on screen, I sat there as he walked into that bar and I, I cannot totally explain it, but I sat there and stared at him on screen and went mustache, huh? Mustache, like why? And he's a, he's a police officer and, and he's got that mustache. The first time we see him, he's in his uniform and he's got a mustache. And I kind of just sat there. There was something about it. I'm not even saying I responded negatively to it, but there was something that just made me dwell on it.

27:41And then I read today that that was just Crager going, I just love the character John C.

27:47Adam Kempenaar:Reilly plays in Magnolia. So I had Alden Ehrenreich have a mustache like the cop in Magnolia. Okay.

27:54Josh Larsen:There you go. We have to find all kinds of inspiration, all kinds of places. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely Magnolia Touchstone. You can see that throughout this movie. And, and to your point about, you know, once you connected with the through line of pain for all the characters, that's tied to what I was saying about, then it became a portrait of communal pain. For me, the structure allowed it to be a community's pain that we're holding. And the pacing I never flagged because again, I don't remember where we get these set pieces and I'm going to dance around this for spoilers, but there is a gas station incident, which the way that is staged is the opposite of a jump scare.

28:36Josh Larsen:um and so adam i think i think my heart lapped when i realized what was happening and then it like tried to literally crawl out of my throat yeah it was like this sensation right before that happened you heard the audio yeah it was it was this yeah sensation i don't know that that i've had since maybe i was a kid watching the shining too young and then there is another moment which I think occurs earlier that I will not describe in detail as well. Um, it is, I'll just say Justine is asleep in her car and particularly vulnerable where you're going. And the way Craig or uses, um, delicate movement of the camera, very specific blocking and then sound design to communicate what could be about to happen without it's a single take.

29:32Josh Larsen:I can say that. And, um, it's just an unbearable experience of dread, uh, and connected to it. The mileage they get in this movie out of a suburban homes front door opening to a blackness. I don't know how they managed that, but it is unlike anything else. I think I've seen the cinematographer Larkin Seeple here who worked on everything everywhere all at once. Actually, the blackness when that door opens is underworldly. I don't know how you describe it, but it's terrifying. Just, just a shot of that every time you see it. Cause it, it's a motif. Um, I never got used to. So there are the overall point is there are enough, um, well, brilliantly crafted horror set pieces in this for me to just hook me and, and keep me allowing me to catch my breath when we do then go follow another character for a little while, while also being fearful of what in some cases I know is coming that they don't, that a character might not, which brings us back to Craig's, you know, earlier movie barbarian, which, which I liked well enough, but it did cleverly play with narrative perspective.

30:49Josh Larsen:Barbarian is, you know, famously a good way into the movie cuts off from the people we've been watching and introduces someone entirely new. And then has that person in the situation we'd been watching. So we know more information there. And he's doing something similar here. I think it's more effective here, playing with the idea of narrative perspective.

31:11Adam Kempenaar:Well, I wouldn't know because I tried to do my homework and finally catch up with Barbarian the other night. You had to bail. And to Krager's credit, as a filmmaker, when it comes to building dread, Because at this point, there had been no gore. Zero gore. Zero monsters on screen. Here I was, Josh, thinking I was finally a big boy. At middle age, I could handle horror. Finally. I've had this string of horror movies that I've enjoyed for the most part or I've enjoyed talking about here on the show. And I pretty much remember the exact moment. It was about 40 minutes in. I think I can say it's when the main character goes to the basement the second time.

32:05Adam Kempenaar:Another basement. I said, another basement. I said, you know what? I'm out. The dread, the feeling, the anticipation of dread was so overwhelming. I just said, I can't do it. I don't want to know what's coming. I'm bailing on this film and I will just go in to weapons without having the benefit of seeing this film. And I don't know that I ever will see it. I mentioned Tarkovsky earlier and you mentioned the door. We go back to the Tarkovsky marathon, all the films and all the filmmakers that he references, Krager, including on that Letterbox article, he doesn't mention Tarkovsky, but the significance of doorways, remember, is something we keyed in on.

32:51Adam Kempenaar:And it comes up again and again here. It's not just that door. And it happens even in Barbarian in the first 40 minutes that I saw. In Tarkovsky, sometimes it's just the archway itself. It's the entryway that is like this threshold, this powerful threshold that becomes an entryway. It becomes this powerful force almost. He is obsessed with doors and the creepiness of a door opening slowly, beckoning you to enter. The unseen force that's kind of ushering you you in and even if it's just opening on its own and the way he also repeatedly mounts the camera on like archer's truck door so it's even the truck door so when it shuts you get that very sudden jarring effect and you mentioned both the scene in the car with justine and the gas station that we heard a little bit of the gas station confrontation and in both those cases what he does so well there.

33:57Adam Kempenaar:Because there are so many other examples where he's lifting moments from The Shining, where he's using the Steadicam to great effect, and he's using those more jarring effects, and he loves movement. What I love about both of those scenes, it's Julia Garner first alerting us with her eyes that something is coming. And that's what clues us in and gets us a little nervous first, gets us anxious first. And then the camera just kind of swings a little bit before it even shows us what's coming towards us. And then in that shot in the car, it is a still camera that is just focused on her in the driver's seat of her car.

34:37Adam Kempenaar:And it's all what's happening off camera. That's what's killing us as viewers is the waiting. The waiting and the not knowing what is happening and what could be about to happen. So he understands how to use that space within the frame, but also the space outside of the frame to build that dread. And then even you think about the poster and the imagery that comes back that recurs in this film again and again, the running shots of the children. It does become clearer what that is meant to evoke. To me, it really does feel like a jet plane where their arms are spread back like wings. And obviously for them all to be running to the same place at the same time, they must be, here again, that idea of control.

35:33Adam Kempenaar:They must be lacking some control. But there's also this sense, Josh, that while some force must be driving them, they also look like kids who are using their imagination and that they are totally free in the moment. And so that, that juxtaposition, that contradiction is so striking.

35:55Josh Larsen:And it's, you know, you sometimes horror can be reduced to one image like this. And then if the movie backs it up, it will go down indelibly as a landmark horror image. And I think that is going to be the case with this shot of the kids running. I mean, it's instrumental to the marketing campaign, but it's more, it's richer than that when you actually see the film. And I do like how he uses it sparingly. As I said, we get this before the title of the movie and we don't really return to it. Let's say this, we don't return to it for the majority of the film otherwise, save for one little reference that is effective.

36:40Josh Larsen:But it's not like he's using it too much to my mind basically. Um, and I think it's just going to be a marker. It's going to be like the, you know, the blood coming out of the elevator in the shining it's, it's going to be like Heather's face looking in the camera in Blair, which I think the silhouette of a kid running down a dark suburban street is going to 10 to 20 years from now have that cultural cachet and impact. And I think it earns it. I think it earns it. Now I don't think weapons is a perfect film. And I want to ask you something that's somewhat related to your barbarian experience, which I loved hearing about.

37:17Josh Larsen:The part you didn't get to, for me, the ending of Barbarian is kind of what lost me, where Kreger did start really amping up the insanity. I almost felt like the movie had abandoned, not only given a new perspective to what came before, but abandoned it in trying to trick us and be clever. I don't think that happens in weapons. But I do think while I found the ending, particularly the climax cathartic, I do think there are, and this is a question for you because it goes to like horror logic. I do think there are some, we're going to have to dance around this, some logic plot holes that were not big enough to throw me off, but let's just say to totally buy in on weapons, you have to understand that this is the most incompetent police force in the history of the world.

38:12Josh Larsen:Is that fair? Maybe. And if you agree, did that throw you off with, once we understand what's really going on here, and the movie does tell us, it puts all its cards on the table quite clearly. Sure. And then your mind starts thinking, okay, if this is what happened, how did it actually go down? And we see some of that. But then your mind starts saying, like, I was anticipating, like, they're going to have to answer this big question I have. And the answer was, you know, like these guys needed a few more years of training, I think. Okay.

38:46Adam Kempenaar:You know, what I would point out, Josh, is the thing that undoes the film even more is this is a movie that does, for the most part, play by the rules. It plays by real world rules, and it acknowledges that this is a world that has, as our world does, ring cameras that captures neighborhood activity. And I will say if only there was one ring camera placed in one particular area, then there also wouldn't be an entire movie. So there are there are ways that we could certainly undercut it. But for the most part, I really respect that Krager tries to play by rules in ways that I don't think a lot of horror movies try to.

39:36Adam Kempenaar:And I'm game for getting into some spoiler talk if you want to save that. And maybe at the very end of the podcast, we can do that. I think in terms of just kind of putting a bow on this conversation, I am interested. I find it interesting to hear that you weren't necessarily totally on board with the ending of the film because I wasn't either. And the way I would describe it is it does get openly silly. There is, I think, and my audience, I didn't see it with a huge crowd, but the crowd laughed. I don't think there's any response you can have to what happens at the end of this film, but to laugh.

40:23Adam Kempenaar:It seems decidedly intentional on the filmmaker's part. And I do have tremendous respect for Craig for going there. And it requires, I think, great confidence as a filmmaker to do it when you have a film that otherwise is so gory and so portentous and is so dread-filled. My questions would be, based on everything that came before, should there be some kind of, should there be real, and you mentioned this, Josh, should there be real emotional catharsis at the end? And then did you have it, or did the silliness undercut that? And my answers are, yes, there should be. And no, not really. I didn't really have it.

41:09Adam Kempenaar:And the silliness is part of what undercut it. I walked out of this movie more with kind of a grin on my face thinking, boy, Craigers really is such a cheeky filmmaker. So it didn't fully deliver on the promise of its provocative premise for me. Yeah.

41:28Josh Larsen:To be clear, I was all in on the climax, the actual ending. What I was referring to is once we start seeing the logistics of the answer to the mystery, that's where I was. You love the silliness. Yeah. The more absurd, the better. Adam, it was, I was like, no, this isn't going to happen. Is it? Yeah. And then I was like, oh, it's happening. Yeah. And I was like, it's, it's still happening and it's happening like that. And it's like, it's almost like they knew they had a good joke. And then, I mean, it is played as a comedy bit because it's now let's up the ante here. Now, what if it happens here now here?

42:08Josh Larsen:and the audio that goes with it. Yes. We really can't, we really, I can't talk in detail here about why it works for me, but I will say out of my, my intellectual response gave way to the catharsis. And, and again, this was before I had made the allegorical connection to school shooting. So it was like a subliminal subconscious, like, I didn't know why I was feeling so cathartic about this crazy climax because every bone in my body was probably telling me, I should not be enjoying this. I should not be disturbed laughing. Why, why am I finding this? Like, like, yes, like a, and I think for a couple of reasons, the brilliance of the filmmaking and deep down, I, there was something this movie was nagging at me about that.

43:04Josh Larsen:I needed a cathartic experience. So I really do believe that's what I had. But I completely understand if you were taken out by it because it is a big, big swing.

43:14Adam Kempenaar:And I think the distinction in what I'm hearing or what I think I'm hearing from you is you're speaking about catharsis more in the sense of the movie itself delivering a sense of catharsis. And I'm thinking very specifically in terms of the characters. I'm thinking about where Justine is at, where Archer is at. I'm thinking about where another character or characters are at that I don't want to get into. That's the catharsis I need the movie to deliver. And I think the movie tries to deliver it. It's not that it's not there, but I didn't feel it on the level that I thought I might based on everything that came before.

43:56Josh Larsen:Yeah. The final moments, and this is related back to my qualms about the voiceover narration that bookends this, and the final moments, I maybe felt closer to that when we do get that narration again. And it again, opens some questions. Um, I think maybe, I don't know how you feel. I feel like we've covered a lot of good stuff and maybe we hold spoilers for like, if we get listener feedback emails and, and, you know, that might be a chance to dig into some of the particulars. Um, but I do want to say real quickly, cause we praise the performances overall, Austin Abrams, who plays James, who's the young guy who's looking for a fix and really, I think anchors a significantly comic section of the movie.

44:41Josh Larsen:I was like, this guy is amazing. He is fantastic. And then I was looking at the credits and you saw Wolfe's, right? The Clooney, Brad Pitt thing. Remember that grungy goofball, the third wheel who hangs around with them? He's sort of like - Yeah.

44:58Adam Kempenaar:And he had that same sort of effortless kind of. Yes. Effortless. Yeah. Austin Abrams. You're right. Just like so good here too. Interesting. Yeah. I'm glad you looked that up. Weapons is currently playing in wide release. If you've seen it and you agree or disagree, or you have any other thoughts you'd like to share, we would love to hear from you. Feedback at filmspotting.net.

45:21Josh Larsen:Listening is the number one thing you can do to support an independently produced show like ours. Here are a couple of other things you could do. Take a minute to give us a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Every new review helps us reach new listeners, so please send one of those along. Even better, how about joining the Film Spotting family? We are continuing our celebration of Film Spotting's 20th year by sharing voice messages from Film Spotting family members. So these were submitted ahead of Film Spotting Fest back in March. Here are messages from Aaron, as well as Eric Nelson from Racine, Wisconsin.

46:00Josh Larsen:I've raised three kids on FilmSpotting.

46:02Adam Kempenaar:They all love film in their own way. My oldest, Ambrose, obsesses about John Williams and did the Christopher Nolan Marathon with me to become a completist. But he also saw Puss in Boots in the theater five times. I discovered Get Out with Vigo, and we even agree with Josh that Jordan Peele's Us is the better film. but then Beagle fell in love with the girl, in part based on their shared affinity for the Saw movies. My third son, Keanu, he only loves good movies like Dog Day Afternoon, Whiplash, Fury Road, but will probably find a way to burn film spotting nation to the ground if they don't give Sherlock Jr.

46:40Adam Kempenaar:his rightful place among the pantheon. This is what you get for young adults when your kids don't know a world without film spotting. As a cinephile, there's stuff I worry about with the trajectory my boys are on, but then I listen to episode 14 from 2005. Adam enthusiastically hoped that Ian McDiarmid's portrayal of Emperor Palpatine would finally get him Oscar attention, while Sam praised A Boy and His Dog, a 1975 film where Don Johnson telepathically communicates with his dog in a post-apocalyptic world while battling Jason Robards, who wants to use the hero for a sperm bank. Thank God people grow and change.

47:22Adam Kempenaar:Adam, Sam, Josh, they continue to surprise us because they love film. They share themselves authentically while they interpret art. I see that in my boys. I love that about my boys. And I'm not sure my family would be this kind of awesome if it wasn't for 20 years of film spotting. Hey, film spotting. This is Aaron Newworth in Laguna Hills, California. happy 20th. I've been listening to this show since 2008, which is, that's a long time. I want to talk about my favorite film spotting moments, money to choose from. I, of course, love Adam and Josh together, but there were the Maddie Ballgame years, and one that's, a moment that's always stuck out to me is episode 234.

48:03Adam Kempenaar:It's when you reviewed Synecdoche, New York, the Charlie Kaufman film that I'm quite a fan of. You guys gave a wonderful review of it. You went over the film and its themes and what you took away from it and all that. And then you also laid into At The Movies in its final incarnation at that time and how disappointing it was to see what passed as film criticism on that show to go out there with their, frankly, very underwhelming thoughts on the film. Meanwhile, here we are 20 years later, film spotting's still going and I'm happy to listen while At The Movies in that form is no longer anywhere to be found.

48:35Adam Kempenaar:So thank you for providing such wonderful reviews over the years and cheers. Always great to hear from Aaron and Eric Synecdoche, New York. Yeah, episode 234. That's an infamous one in the film spotting catalog when Maddie and I got a little upset at the Benz for their review. And I use that term loosely. It was like a film critic brawl going on back then, huh?

49:29Adam Kempenaar:I looked up who was nominated for Oscars in 2006 and who won. And you know what? Ian McDermott got robbed. He deserved a nomination. I support you. I support you and your crusade. He is fantastic. And then Sam. Now, I haven't seen a boy and his dog. It sounds like Eric may have a case against Sam. But how is it, Josh, with all of your opinions over the years? How is it that only me and Sam are getting taken to task by Eric for terrible movie thoughts?

50:02Josh Larsen:I mean, I have not seen A Boy and His Dog either, but just reading or hearing that description, I should say, it's hard for me to even top that one.

50:12Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, we do appreciate all the great feedback that we get. Of course, all the love and support that we get from longtime listeners and supporters like Aaron and Eric. I think we only have one more of these very special messages to share. We'll get to that in a few weeks. We thank all of our FilmSpotting family members. In addition to keeping us doing what we're doing, your support comes with perks. You get to listen early and ad-free. You get our weekly newsletter. You get exclusive opportunities like being part of the FilmSpotting family Discord. And you get monthly bonus shows. In July, we shared with you our We Were Wrong Once.

50:50Adam Kempenaar:And it turns out I was wrong again about the Coen brothers burn after reading. And in August, later this month, we haven't taped it yet, but we're doing a blind cow review of Akira Kurosawa's Stray Dog. That's available on the Criterion channel. Now, why are we talking about Stray Dog? We gave Film Spotting family members a vote. It was up against the Rocky Horror Picture Show for its 50th anniversary and Gaslight, which is a 40s film. and we have 1940s Madness coming up. Stray Dog is also a 1940s film and with Highest to Lowest coming out, we thought, why not? We've got the Kurosawa tie in there because Highest to Lowest, of course, is a remake of a Kurosawa film.

51:34Adam Kempenaar:Turns out it's a blind cow because it's blind spotting for you, Josh, and for Sam, but a sacred cow for me. I've seen Stray Dog. Stray Dog 1, I do look forward to revisiting that film. You and Sam will be seeing it for the first time.

51:49Josh Larsen:I cannot wait. It's been a Kurosawa summer for me. I think we had our trip to Japan, Debbie and I. So before that, we watched Yojimbo. And then when we got back, Throne of Blood, I just watched High and Low this past week for the first time. If I can add Stray Dog to the pile, that's just great. Can't wait to watch it.

52:08Adam Kempenaar:If you'd like to be part of the FilmSpotting family and hear that conversation later this month, you can do that at FilmSpottingFamily.com.

52:37Josh Larsen:welcome to adam's alcove your source for under the radar music doc reviews do we have some i feel like we need some soothing music to go along with this.

52:48Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. This is going to be short lived though. I think this segment's over after this week. Oh no. Are there other music docs coming out? Hit the ratings aren't great. You're getting canceled already.

52:58Josh Larsen:Yeah. That was from the trailer for it's never over. Jeff Buckley, a new doc about the singer songwriter who died in 1997 at 30, but whose music has lived on, in particular, his now ubiquitous cover of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah, which appeared on his only studio album, 1994's Grace. The documentary was directed by Amy J. Berg, who made the Janis Joplin doc Little Girl Blue in 2015 and was Oscar-nominated for the 2006 documentary Deliver Us From Evil. I mostly know Jeff Buckley from that Hallelujah cover, Adam, But I think you were more of a fan of his work. So tell us, does the new doc offer anything for non-fans like me?

53:43Adam Kempenaar:Absolutely. And I don't know how you couldn't be a convert after seeing the movie. And to that point, unfortunately, as people hear this, they won't have this opportunity because my understanding is this is exclusive footage that Magnolia is only Magnolia Pictures is only making available the first week of the movie's release. So 8-8 through 8-14. But I saw it in that window opening weekend. And after the movie, and they say this with some text at the very beginning, stick around after the credits because they've got 26 minutes of exclusive remastered footage of a rare solo performance from February 1994 of Jeff Buckley at a place called the Middle East in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

54:34Adam Kempenaar:I saw it on a Sunday afternoon, not a huge crowd, but every person there, Josh, stayed for all 26 minutes of that footage. Some of which you do see in the doc itself, but it makes sense that anybody who considers themselves to be a Buckley fan would want to stay and see that footage. But I have to imagine there were some people there who were there at the movie out of curiosity who weren't that familiar with his work or familiar with it at all. And the doc is so powerful, a testament to his talent, that getting the chance to watch him perform unfiltered wasn't one anybody was going to miss out on.

55:13Adam Kempenaar:I shared a little bit of personal music background last week during Adam's doc alcove talking about the Mark Boland doc. I might as well do it here. I don't want to disparage that doc when I say this. I want to properly appraise this one. It's never over. is a greater cinematic, musical, and emotional experience than The Bolandoc, not just because of my deeper appreciation for Buckley's music. It's largely attributable to how Berg approaches Buckley's life with the same intense empathy that Buckley himself approached his art. I was a year late to Buckley. Grace came out in the summer of 94, and this is yet another part of my life.

55:59Adam Kempenaar:like film spotting, I can connect back to my college roommate, Kevin Rich. He introduced me to Sam after they both moved to Chicago after graduation from their respective colleges. In the summer of 95, when school got out for the year, I drove down to St. Louis to visit Kevin in his St. Louis suburb. And I'd already gotten to know some of his high school friends. And I met Jeff Holquist for the first time, Jeffy. He was a musician, one of Kevin's friends, obviously. Jeffy was a musician like me, and we're hanging out, and he's telling me about Jeff Buckley, who I'd never heard of, and he's telling me about this album, Grace, and how incredible it was.

56:40Adam Kempenaar:And I don't remember if we listened to it together or not. I do know that when I heard it, within the first 30 seconds, I knew that I could trust Jeffy's taste in music, because that voice and that songwriting was otherworldly. It was like nothing I'd ever heard before. And that's because to explain what Jeff Buckley's music sounds like to someone, the best way I can characterize it now is this radical combination of Led Zeppelin, Nina Simone, and Tim Buckley, his father. In 94, I knew Zeppelin. I didn't really know Nina Simone, and I wasn't familiar at all with Tim Buckley. That combination itself is singular, but there just was no context for Jeff Buckley.

57:27Adam Kempenaar:His sound was that distinctive. distinctive. And I want to highlight, to go back to your question, asking about what's in it for people who don't really know him or aren't fans of his music, other than hopefully being turned on to it because he's such a remarkable artist. I do want to highlight two choices that Berg makes that really elevate this documentary. And I haven't seen any of Berg's other films. I'm very curious now. And they tie back to Nina Simone, in a way. One's overarching in Berg's approach, and one's very specific to the song you mentioned, the one Buckley is best known for, Hallelujah, the Leonard Cohen cover.

58:03Adam Kempenaar:You know the doc's going to have to devote time to it, right? It's only a matter of when and how and maybe how long. A lot of other music docs would spend this time having various musicians and industry luminaries and honestly, probably a lot of dudes talking about what Buckley's version means to them, breaking down what makes it so special musically. And Berg grounds it in Buckley's relationship at the time to a fellow musician, Joan Wasser. You actually hear her talking for a good chunk of the song, over the top of the song. Buckley wrote that the song, you see this in the film, that the song wasn't some spiritual plea so much as a song about sex.

58:53Adam Kempenaar:And whether you believe that or Buckley believed it, it's really irrelevant. The point is that Berg doesn't make it all about spotlighting the song. The song's a tool to further express very real emotions and physical desires. It's about spotlighting this relationship, this really powerful relationship that they had. And then really what I think is Berg's boldest stroke, Josh, the majority of time we spend in this movie with talking heads, reflecting on Jeff and these relationships, it's devoted to the women in his life. His mother, his first significant love, Rebecca, Joan. And it's not something that Berg structurally is imposing on the material.

59:37Adam Kempenaar:It's there organically. Jeff laments later in the film that he doesn't really understand how to be a man. There's talk about how he was raised by his mother. We get into how he was raised by his mother because his dad split before he was born. The fact that he's got this voice that can go into those very higher registers and he sings so powerfully, but it's kind of this androgynous voice. And before Led Zeppelin ever gets mentioned, the first three influences that are invoked are Ain't No Mountain High Enough. I think it's the Diana Ross version. It's definitely a female singer. Judy Garland and his obsession with Nina Simone.

1:00:19Adam Kempenaar:And the movie makes that influence explicitly clear. It's almost like Berg decided that the best way to honor Buckley was to not let the ghost of Tim Buckley continue to haunt him at the expense of the women who knew him best. It even starts, the movie starts with Rebecca, the first girlfriend, saying that she's been hesitant to speak about Jeff and their relationship since his death because the girlfriend isn't always treated well in these types of stories. And it's true that they're either marginalized or worse, they're villainized. And Berg reclaims the portrayal of women in these tragic rock tales.

1:01:04Adam Kempenaar:And in so doing, renders the more honest, intimate portrayal of who Buckley was. I thought that was fascinating. Fascinating choice, really effective. And then you've got the incredible music on top of it. I think it's a must see.

1:01:24Josh Larsen:All right. Yeah, definitely makes me want to put on grace and give the whole album a listen after this and maybe catch up with the doc itself soon.

1:01:32Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, It's Never Over. Jeff Buckley is out in limited release if you get a chance to see it. And if you do and have any thoughts to share, we would love to hear from you. Feedback at filmspotting.net. Next week on the show, we had intended to talk about The Return of Spike Lee and Denzel Washington, Highest to Lowest, a remake slash reimagining of Akira Kurosawa's 1963 film High and Low. This is their fourth collaboration and first since one of my favorite films, 2006's Inside Man, Highest to Lowest. And we're now discovering that it's getting such a limited theatrical release. I don't know how this is possible.

1:02:16Adam Kempenaar:I actually am able to see it in Iowa City, Josh, but somehow you're not really able to see it in Chicago this weekend.

1:02:25Josh Larsen:Yeah, we got to clarify this. So there's a chance we can still do this next week, but it appears it's not coming to Chicago until the following week. And with Cinema Interruptus, I wasn't able to make the press screening. So, yeah, we're going to get to this no matter what. It's just a question of if it's going to be sooner rather than later. We'll see. Stay tuned on that one.

1:02:45Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Will it be next week's show or the week after? As Josh said, stay tuned for that. What we do know for sure is that next week on the show, we will have a Pantheon Project conversation, another sacred cow conversation coming. Dog Day Afternoon, the Sidney Lumet film. This is why we held off on including this in our Lumet marathon. Now, of course, we also tried to keep that marathon as we usually do to Blind Spots, Sidney Lumet films we hadn't seen. But we knew we didn't want to talk about Dog Day Afternoon because it was turning 50 this year and it is in the Pantheon. So we're going to give it that Pantheon Project treatment next week.

1:03:23Adam Kempenaar:I don't remember the last time I saw Dog Day Afternoon. It might have been in college, Josh, just like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. It's been a while.

1:03:32Josh Larsen:We're going back to the 70s, back to, would you consider Pacino an antihero, a 70s antihero? For sure. thinking about Hackman and Nicholson and Newman. Yeah, I know that goes back to the 60s, but that's a conversation we've been having. So yeah, very eager to take another look at Dog Day afternoon, just in general, but also in the context of some of these other conversations we've been having.

1:03:55Adam Kempenaar:We'll also have results from the current deeply flawed film spotting poll. We're asking you, aside from Jaws, which of the 1976 nominees for Best Picture, so the films of 1975, should have won the Oscar. The other options may be the greatest ever lineup of best pick nominees. We got Kubrick's Barry Lyndon. We have Dog Day Afternoon. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. And Robert Altman's Nashville. Josh, I was surprised. Now, this was early when I looked at the initial voting, but I thought for sure this was going to be Dog Day Afternoon or it would be Cuckoo's Nest. and Nashville was in the lead for a short while.

1:04:38Adam Kempenaar:Are you kidding me? It's not in the lead anymore as I take a quick glance, but this is one of those polls where maybe it's not deeply flawed because it's almost a four-way race. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, it's very, very close.

1:04:52Josh Larsen:Yeah, no shade on Nashville. That wouldn't have been my guess that it would have the lead at some point. It's not in last place. But that it's in the running does make sense.

1:05:01Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, not in last place. I'm a little bit surprised. I thought maybe that one would take up the rear, but it is in contention. Your vote really does matter. You can vote in that poll and leave a comment at filmspotting.net. And since we're mentioning Altman here, I'd be remiss, Josh, if I didn't ask. I'm very curious myself. We're taping this here. Day two has been completed. Cinema, interrupt us. The player. I'd love to hear how it's been going.

1:05:31Josh Larsen:it's well it was a lot of fun but we're a little behind adam as you know the goal is to finish the movie in three days stopping and starting repeatedly i just checked before we started recording and uh we are only 20 minutes into the player after an hour and a half are you kidding me of interrupting now i'm oh boy it's not a short josh i didn't like the sound of that laugh um So I'm trying to make myself, I've never been in all the years I've been doing this, this far behind after the first day of interrupting. But you know the opening shot. I was just going to say, how long did you spend just on the opening shot?

1:06:10Josh Larsen:Guess how many minutes? I mean, the full day one? No, it was not that bad. 30 minutes. We spent 30 minutes breaking that down. Obviously, I mean, you know, if it's going this long, we're having a good time. That's the way I'm looking at it right now. And I will panic on day three when we have like, I don't know, an hour of screen time to get through or something. But yeah, it's going great. The players holding up to scrutiny as I knew it would. And here's a really cool thing. This always happens. When I do this at the conference on world affairs, there are other speakers there. And I'm usually able to find someone to bring in as a guest and they can add something to it.

1:06:47Josh Larsen:And didn't have someone this year, but a day before this started, email out of the blue from Alexander Julian, who's credited as a costume designer, but really slash wardrobe designer, because he outfitted all the studio executives in their suits for the player, which as I'm sure you can realize is crucial to that movie. He, I guess, worked out of a boutique on Rodeo Drive from 1970-something on. He heard we were doing this, and he's just sending me these emails full of details. He's like, I just got to get this out while it's in my head. Use it if you can. And there are some gems in there. So we've already talked a little bit about one of the suits, and there are a couple other moments we'll get to.

1:07:35Josh Larsen:Adam, now you can see why we're barely through this movie. You can get so granular at Interruptus. It's wonderful, but we might have to pick things up a little bit.

1:07:46Adam Kempenaar:So you're saying this man, Alexander Julian, played a major role in communicating Tim Robbins' tremendous douchebaggery in that film.

1:07:57Josh Larsen:Exactly. Griffin Mill. Yeah. He's very particular about the shade of green he chose for that particular reason. Okay. Yeah. Unfortunately, by the time this airs, we'll have wrapped up. Hopefully I finished the movie so listeners can't join us, but there are some there. Thank you so much to those FilmSpotting listeners who have stopped by to be a part of it. And yeah, we'll see if we can get through.

1:08:23Adam Kempenaar:Altman, we got Milos Forman, Lumet, Kubrick, all in that FilmSpotting poll question. You can vote now at FilmSpotting.net and you can check out our show schedule at FilmSpotting.net slash episodes.

1:08:37Josh Larsen:This week on our sister podcast, The Next Picture Show, looking at cinemas present via its past, they have a new pairing that is for the Naked Gun fanatics. They are looking at the new Naked Gun 2025 with Liam Neeson and Pamela Anderson. And of course, the first episode is going back to 1988 to consider the original. New episodes of The Next Picture Show drop every Tuesday, and you can find them wherever you get your podcasts. It's time now for Massacre Theater, where we perform a scene and you get a chance to win a film spotting prize. Last time, we massacred this scene. This may seem like a really stupid question.

1:09:19Josh Larsen:There are no stupid questions. You inherit$5 million the same day aliens land on the Earth and say they're going to blow it up in two days. What do you do? That's the stupidest question I've ever heard.

1:09:35Adam Kempenaar:I don't know, probably row out to the middle of a lake somewhere, bring along a bottle of tequila, my sacks, and some Bach.

1:09:45Josh Larsen:How very. That was Christian Slater as J.D. Dean and Winona Ryder as Veronica Sawyer in 1989's Heathers, written by Daniel Waters and directed by Michael Lehman. That Massacre was part of our Jack Nicholson show a couple weeks ago, a 50th anniversary Pantheon Project review of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and our top five Nicholson scenes. So, why that scene from Heathers?

1:10:11Adam Kempenaar:Here's Taylor in Chicago. Another incredible, another incredible Josh Larson performance in this scene from Heathers. It was his Christian Slater doing Jack Nicholson was almost at the same bizarre meta impression level as the time you all did a scene from Vertigo where it ended up as Adam doing Jimmy Stewart doing Andy Samberg's Nick Cage. That is exactly what I was going for.

1:10:35Josh Larsen:It was OK.

1:10:36Adam Kempenaar:I didn't remember that. Aside from the influence of Jack Nicholson, this episode's focus on Slater's performance in Heather's, I also have to note that Heather's is a movie set in high school. This week's episode featured a voicemail from the great Trip Burton, who was a high school teacher. Yes, that's the tie-in we were going for, Taylor.

1:10:54Josh Larsen:Wow. Nice work, Taylor. Here's David Zobel from Roswell, Georgia. At first I thought it might be Mars Attacks, which might be the first time in recorded history those two movies have been confused. Then came along the How Very. Yeah. You thought that had to be a giveaway, Adam.

1:11:13Adam Kempenaar:Josh, this might be the most incorrect entries we've ever received for Massacre Theater in the show's history. A lot of Mars attacks. So I think that speaks to how good your Nicholson impression was. That's how I'm going to take it. Here's Bruce McClintock in Seminole, Florida. Heathers was such a formative experience that I remember exactly when and where I saw it in the theater. I'm guessing that you paired Heathers with One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest because each highlights the absurdity and harshness of an institutional existence. Both introduce a charismatic but anarchic character to disrupt the status quo.

1:11:48Adam Kempenaar:High school is purgatory as well. Or maybe it was because Christian Slater sounded a little like Jack Nicholson.

1:11:56Josh Larsen:Let's go with all of that. I think Bruce figured it out.

1:11:59Adam Kempenaar:Reach into the still mostly brimming, despite all the incorrect entries, Film Spotting Hat and pick out the winner, Josh. Our winner is Scott G. from Skokie, Illinois. Congratulations, Scott. Email feedback at filmspotting.net and we will set you up with your very own Film Spotting t-shirt, tote bag, or trial membership to the Film Spotting family.

1:12:22Josh Larsen:That was the greatest acting I have ever seen. I just don't know how you do it, Gary. How do you make yourself so sober and emotional to make everybody cry like that? It's not that hard, really. I just think about the saddest moment in my life.

1:12:36Adam Kempenaar:I don't know that I've ever been more terrified about a massacre theater scene in the entire time we've done this show.

1:12:45Josh Larsen:I agree with you, Adam. And we've sung as part of massacre theater in public before a live audience. And I didn't feel this unnerved. What is Sam doing to us? Why do we allow this? Sam chose this scene. But we have veto power. We could say no. Don't say that. Let's just remember Sam's responsible for whatever happens.

1:13:09Adam Kempenaar:That's right. It's Sam's fault. It's always Sam's fault. I'm not going to ask you if you're ready because I know you're not, nor am I. Let's rip off the bandaid. Come on. Come on. Okay. And action. Mama. Come to mama, baby. Come on. Ma, you've been bad. Ah, Johnny, I may have been bad. I may have kept you chained in that room. but it was for your good. Don't you remember when I used to sing to you? When you were little, rock-a-bye, baby, on the treetop. When the wind blows, the cradle will rock. When the bough breaks, the cradle will fall. Fall? Break? Fall? I only dropped you once. No. Well, maybe twice.

1:14:13Josh Larsen:And scene. Scene. I mean, your decision to go half James Cagney, half Gonzo, even though it was a woman? Yeah, that's brilliant. Did I go as a woman? I don't know. Well, no, you went as a Cagney Gonzo is who you went as.

1:14:32Adam Kempenaar:That's correct. If you know what film we just massacred, email the movie's title and your name and location to feedback at filmspotting.net. The deadline is Monday, August 28th. We'll select the winner randomly from all the correct entries and announce it in a couple of weeks. But really, the winner was everyone who got to hear that, Josh. And that is our show.

1:14:54Josh Larsen:I mean, if it was ever more appropriate to end the show with a massacre theater, I think it was this one. In fact, we might have ended the show for good. You're not wrong. Okay. If you want to find Adam and the show while it still exists, you can do that at Instagram and Facebook as well as Letterboxd. He's at FilmSpotting. I'm at those places as well as Blue Sky as Larson on film. FilmSpotting is independently produced and listener supported. You can support the show by joining the FilmSpotting family at FilmSpottingFamily.com. That way you can listen early and add free. You'll also get a weekly newsletter, monthly bonus episodes, and access to the entire show archive.

1:15:35Josh Larsen:For show t-shirts and other merch, go to filmspotting.net slash shop.

1:15:40Adam Kempenaar:In the Film Spotting archive, you will not find a review of Zach Krager's previous film, Barbarian. And that's because I will never watch Zach Krager's previous film, Barbarian. Never finish. And you cannot make me. No, I will not finish it. But it did make our 2022 Scenes of the Year show. I forgot that. Josh, you had funniest moment. I guess that's fitting. Yeah, right. Did you get this far? The measuring tape scene?

1:16:07Josh Larsen:Measuring tape. I don't think so. In the tunnel. No, I don't remember anything in a tunnel. Oh, you did bail early. It's a good scene. Just go back for that at least.

1:16:16Adam Kempenaar:I interviewed Josh Brolin way back on episode 185. We also, on that show, had a No Country for Old Men review and shared our top five Coen Brothers scenes. Wow, that was a packed episode. Back on episode 185. Out new this weekend, streaming, you can see fixed. Adam Devine learns that he's going to be neutered, so he has 24 hours to, quote, squeeze in one last balls-to-the-wall adventure with the boys. Worth noting, it's animated, and it's about dogs.

1:16:47Josh Larsen:Oh, okay. I was actually hoping this was an Elon Musk biopic.

1:16:52Adam Kempenaar:With the voices of Idris Elba, Catherine Han, Fred Armisen, and others. It's on Netflix. Okay. Out wide, Jimmy and Stiggs, an out-of-work filmmaker, goes on a bender during which he claims to have been abducted by aliens. He recruits an old friend to join him on a hallucinatory drug-fueled battle. I don't know who the director is. I have no actors or actresses here. I think Sam is actually just making these up. It's like Anchorman, and I'm just reading. But you're in. You want to go see that. Yeah, I do, of course. Jimmy and Stiggs. No, nobody too. Bob Odenkirk returns as a former assassin who is again forced back into battle this time while his family is on vacation.

1:17:31Adam Kempenaar:Josh, I know you caught up with nobody because you like to do your homework. I did not, but I can tell you nobody too does certainly exist. Witchboard is also out. A cursed Witchboard awakens dark forces. They always do. Was there a movie called Witchboard in the 80s? There was. Is this a remake? Maybe. It's from the director of The Mask and A Nightmare on Elm Street 3, Dream Warriors. Yes.

1:17:56Josh Larsen:Sam's telling on himself here, asking if this is a version that previously existed when this does not even exist.

1:18:04Adam Kempenaar:In limited release, you can see 2016's Shin Godzilla. It's getting a 4K restoration and a re-release in theaters. Our friend Isaac Feldberg says, the best, most thoughtfully made modern Godzilla movie. Okay, very curious now. And Spike Lee's highest to lowest. We do hope to talk about that film next week, but we may have to put it off another week. We will have our Pantheon Project conversation about Dog Day Afternoon for its 50th anniversary.

1:18:32Josh Larsen:Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe DeSoe and Sam Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

1:18:52Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

1:19:28Thank you.

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