E150 - The Psychology of The 'Nice Guy' Who Always Loses Mercedes Coffman

41:42Like I remember when I was 26, I think this was probably the first time that I fell in love or experienced some extremely strong emotions. and I think the only reason that I experienced something that strong was a combination of different factors first of it being that I'd never really felt that way before so I hadn't had this experience before second of all it was in a different country so I was actually in in Sweden I was on vacation I was just doing fun things with a new person that I just met who I got along with very well and we were very sexually attracted to each other this all happens in a matter of days and then i go home back to the uk go back to work and i'm like what the hell was that and then you're thinking well at the time i didn't really know and i think now i've kind of figured out a little bit but i think especially the first time you fall in love you're so vulnerable and so you don't have any previous experience of a heartbreak so you kind of just go all in and there's no part of your inner self being like hey be careful here because remember what happened last time like that kind of screwed you up for a little bit you have no experience of that so you're like oh my god yes i'm gonna go all in and that's why it feels so good because you're not holding back.

43:03But then as you have these experiences of relationships ending, heartbreak, you going through a tough time of grieving, you, without even realizing it, kind of build up this barrier and wall so that you are protecting yourself from that happening again, which can prevent you from kind of going all in when you, maybe you should go all in. I agree. I think you should. I think the thing is, is that, and you described all the perfect ingredients for a good relationship, at least the beginning of it, which is that I think one component that is very significant you mentioned is that you weren't in your hometown.

43:45And when people are not in their hometown, they're less inhibited. And so when someone visits another country or another state, they're much more liberated in a sense, right? Subconsciously, there's a liberation of nobody here knows me and I could fully be myself. And therefore, they're much more vulnerable. They're much more sexually liberated. They're much more willing to explore. They're much more spontaneous. And all of those things, that play component that we oftentimes guard, is what's necessary for building an intimate, a truly and genuine intimate connection. I think that when people are in their hometown, there's a lot of guilt and shame and fear about rejection, about being ghosted, being abandoned, that people just become so much more guarded because their anxiety is overthinking and overanalyzing what it may or may not become or turn into.

44:44So I like the fact that you mentioned that it was in another country because I think that is kind of like the perfect storm for a person fully letting themselves into a relationship. And I think that although people have become increasingly more guarded based on past relationships, I think that every relationship requires emotional risks. And that is emotional capacity. I think that our capacity has become so low that we're trying to conjure up perfect relationship connections that will never allow us to get hurt again. And that's inevitable. You will get hurt. I've been married a very long time.

45:20I don't know if it might end one day, but I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about today. It is great. You know, so I just think that it's one of those things where it's important for people to just start building their emotional capacity and saying, you know what? I'm not going to punish myself by being too guarded. I'm going to practice discernment and I'm going to assess people, but I'm also not going to completely write off dating altogether. So would you say it's really down to the person being good enough at assessing someone or a potential partner before letting themselves go or giving themselves to someone?

46:09Yes. And I think that that naturally happens. You meet a person, there's good chemistry, there's mutual attraction, there's reciprocation, there's clear communication. The relationship is progressing forward and you'll naturally get to know them. You'll naturally get to know them, they'll get to know you. But what I've seen happen is that a lot of people start auditioning other people because they're guarded. They want to kind of just sit back and just see what this person does and if they're good enough for them to be vulnerable. And it's unfair to the other person because they're not getting to know the real you.

46:46You're trying to get to know the real them to see if it's worth the emotional risk. But they're auditioning for you without even knowing that. And so it's that mask thing that you mentioned earlier. I think that if you are intentional about really wanting to connect with people, you have to be vulnerable. There's just no way to escape that. And if you get hurt, it's kind of like sales. I don't think that we should romanticize getting hurt. But I do think that we need to build up the capacity to say, you know what, but at least I've explored a relationship connection that I was genuinely interested in.

47:22how honest do you think we should be with our partners 100 % honest I think you should be 100 % honest I think there's a difference between oversharing and sharing enough I think that oversharing oftentimes is a trauma response It's the fear of this person might leave if they don't know enough or people who in childhood felt as though they weren't going to be taken seriously if they didn't share enough. And so I think the idea of don't overshare in a relationship, whether it's an early on relationship or a relationship that you've been in for quite some time. but if certain questions come up in conversations and certain topics come up absolutely be open with a person that you feel you could trust emotional safety is the first thing to assess for how safe is this emotional space that you and this person have created and the first way to say that or to detect that is to see if this other person is willing to be just as vulnerable as you and if they are then absolutely open up and and be honest with them all right guys quick pause here i've got a question for you are you in shape are you not in shape is there work to do most likely if so i have the tool for you which is going to help you out massively it's the thirst app this is something which i personally use myself when it comes to my training and my nutrition i have all the programs in there which i use on a regular basis and for those who are just looking to lose a bit of body fat.

49:04The same thing goes for women as well. A lot of people don't realize that I used to coach for a large chunk of my life. So all of my coaching experience has been put inside of this app. I want you to learn as much as possible about how to get yourself in shape. There's exclusive videos in there telling you how to do it, how to execute exercises properly, the foods which I eat, and a newly added nutrition section where you can track your meals and your daily macros. It is pretty much this pocket-sized version of myself which i'm going to carry around with you all day every day so if there's something which might interest you which it definitely will do i highly suggest to check out links in the description head over to the thirst app get it downloaded you will not regret it let's crack on with the episode you mentioned um you know it's probably not the best idea to overshare but can it be an issue if somebody over asks because i've had uh There's been some situations in the past where somebody, they would just, they would keep asking questions.

50:03And I'm like, why are you asking these questions, which you know you're not going to like the answer to? Like, just, I mean, I'm open to sharing. But I myself do not ask questions when I know I'm not going to like the answer. I'd be like, sometimes ignorance is bliss. It's like, if I'm starting a new relationship, I don't want to know your entire previous track record of all the guys you've been with and all the things you've done with those guys. I'm like, I'd rather not know, to be honest. I mean, obviously, if it's going to be like damaging to relationship or, you know, maybe she really has a lot of past relationships, maybe it's a good idea that I don't go there.

50:45But generally speaking, I like to kind of start fresh and not over ask, or at least ask questions to things which I'm just not going to like the answer to. Yeah, I think you bring up a really good point. And that is what I often tell. I say this to couples and I say this to single people, right? I think a lot of times people want to ask a lot of questions because they want to know as much as possible about the other person so that they don't get hurt. They don't want to get blindsided, right? I think a lot of people think that the fear of death is their worst fear, but fear of uncertainty is actually people's worst fear, the fear of the unknown.

51:22And so therefore, they want to sometimes over ask a lot of questions to get to know a person thoroughly. I say that a good distinguisher is the difference between investigative and interrogative questions. Investigative questions are about getting to know a person, a genuine curiosity about you, Mike, today in this relationship, right? So, you know, what's your relationship like with your family? What's typically your conflict repair style? What's your love language? What's your favorite food? What do you do in your pastime? Those are questions that are investigative. It's for me to get to know you better in this relationship.

52:06Interrogative questions is what you just described, which is what a lot of people tend to do. And they don't realize that they won't get the answers that they actually want and they won't get to know a person better. They will just actually want to see if a person is guilty of something or if they're not guilty. Right. So interrogative questions oftentimes in couples sound like, how many times did you sleep with her? Was she better than me? Was he bigger than me? was were they more exciting than me don't ask those questions those are interrogative it is an interrogation room at that point and you will now make the person guilty of something that has nothing to do with your relationship together it will only invite chaos into the relationship that's not necessary so if you could you know start distinguishing between those two and recognize that okay i need to differentiate am i being investigative right now because i'm curious or am I interrogating this person because I'm scared?

53:06Very different. Yeah. Yeah. And there's also the, the energy and the way that you word a question that also has a big impact on what kind of response you're going to get. Like if somebody is coming to me, like almost with this attacking negative attitude, then what kind of answer are you going to expect from me. Like whatever you give me, I'm going to give it right back in your face. Like if you're nice, you're peaceful with it, it's a reasonable question, then I will do my best to match that energy and give you an answer. Yeah, I agree. I think tone is very important. I think delivery is very important.

53:49I always tell people to be mindful of not taking on a parental role in a relationship. No matter how much your partner might frustrate you or a person you're dating is frustrating because they've done something before, you want to refrain from taking on a parental role in your approach or in your attitude because taking on a parental role makes a relationship a parental dynamic and that kills libido much faster than anything else. And so the sex drive will almost instantly lower once a person starts feeling like you're acting like their mother or like their father. Do you feel as though something like the chemistry, which we touched upon earlier, is something that can continue long into a relationship even when somebody gets married?

54:40Is it something that is naturally there or something that can come and go? Or is it something that kind of disappears and then the relationship kind of evolves into something else? good question i think that chemistry is the initial because that's just about nervous system excitement it is about the intensity of the first couple of dating stages i think that the chemistry could continue it just takes on a different form it became it becomes more sustainable and this is why i encourage people to continue dating even if they're married right to idea the idea of to continue courting your partner and to continue.

55:18The one thing that with almost every couple that I've worked with, the one thing that tends to go the fastest in long-term relationships is spontaneity. And that's so necessary for chemistry, for intimacy, for romance, the idea of just changing up the schedule, the idea of going on a date that wasn't planned, a trip that wasn't planned. And I think that as people stay in relationships longer, they become much more rigid and it kills the chemistry, it kills the attraction, it kills the libido, and it definitely kills the romance. So I think that chemistry can continue on, but you have to actively work on it in order to maintain it.

55:59It doesn't just stay there biochemically. Do you feel, given what you do for a living, there's a pressure for you to have the perfect relationship in your marriage? Nope, I don't. I think that where my therapy background absolutely benefits my relationship is that I could detect patterns much faster. I could communicate much more effectively. I approach conversations much more considerably and that certainly has helped my marriage for all these years. But I certainly don't think that people are going to look at me to say, oh, you have to have the perfect marriage if you're going to tell people how to have relationships.

56:50I personally haven't ever felt that pressure. I think for me, I've just seen it as a bonus that I'm an expert in this field, but I'm also... I'm walking the talk as well in my own relationship. Yeah, it's funny because when people ask me when it comes to dating and relationships, I sometimes say like, look, I'm probably not the best person to be asking because I'm not married and I don't have any kids yet. So I mean, maybe when it comes to dating, I can give good advice. But when it comes to maintaining and managing a long-term relationship, I'm probably not the guy. but hopefully you know in the future i am going to be that guy i think one thing i'm looking forward to is just um giving advice to guys when it comes to being a father being a good father that's something that i do plan to do in the in the future i want to have kids um but it's funny i think there's quite a few podcasters who get a little bit of stick when it comes to giving advice on these types of topics when they're not in a relationship and they don't have a family and they don't have a family.

57:57Yeah. Great point. I mean, luckily, I've, you know, I've been with my husband for 17 years, so I luckily don't have to worry about that particular problem. But here's my response to people, the critics who give people an issue. For example, you are dating, you're not married, you're not in a relationship. However, you're very self-aware and you're very intelligent and you've interviewed a lot of people and you have a lot of friends in relationships, right? I've worked in the field of addiction for a very long time. I'm not a recovering addict. I'm not an alcoholic. There are male gynecologists.

58:38They do not have female private parts, but they're really good at what they do, right? And so I don't think that you necessarily have to be in a relationship to know about relationships. I think that it helps, as far as the visuals of it, it helps to say, oh, okay, Mike is now married. He knows what he's talking about because he's been able to stay married all this time. So therefore he practices what he preaches and therefore I trust him. Absolutely understand that aspect of it, but I don't think that it is always necessary because you might have education on relationship values from having witnessed and observed and read on relationships as well.

59:24So I don't think it necessarily has to be the case, but I have noticed it too, where people get so much more criticism when they give advice on something that they're not doing themselves. The same, I'm sure, in fitness too. If you talk fitness to me now, I'd be like, oh yeah, what should I do, I'm trying to get bigger shoulders. I would believe you, whatever you tell me to do. whereas someone who might be overweight people would have a little bit of a harder time and although I think sometimes that's unfair because maybe they have the educational knowledge I do think that we should be able to show that we're actually doing it ourselves too yeah I mean I think that's been a huge advantage for me when it comes to creating the content which I've made when you're actually in shape it without a doubt helps to get attention and to give yourself some credibility when it comes to talking about the topic that you're going to be discussing for sure absolutely do you do you think long-distance relationships can work yes i think it i think they can there's i think there's two types of long-distance relationship there is uh the relationship where you you maybe one of the people is traveling or two people are traveling, they meet each other somewhere, and then they have to both go back to wherever they're from.

1:00:46And the relationship has started off with the long distance versus maybe a couple has spent a set amount of time with each other before for a couple of months or years. And then for whatever reason, they're going to be separated by the distance for the temporary period of time. But obviously that comes with challenges. So I guess that there's the two scenarios, starting a relationship from the very beginning, long distance versus being together and then there being long distance at some point in the relationship? Yeah. I think that I said yes as just a shorter answer, but I think that long distance relationships have quite some benefits that I think a lot of times people do not consider.

1:01:32One of the greatest benefits of starting in a long distance relationship is you get to know the person. You do not have the physical distractions of physical intimacy or sex, right? And so in a long distance relationship, all you really have is conversation. All you really have is getting to know the person. And so that's an incredible value as far as relationship building, especially nowadays. I think that the type of long distance relationship that is sustainable, is one that naturally progresses, meaning that you are naturally talking about, okay, so are you going to move to me? Are we going to move somewhere in the middle?

1:02:14Am I coming to you? Eventually, you do want the people to live closer together, of course, because that calms the nervous system. It gives the relationship the level of security that it deserves and that it needs. So in that regard, I think that it could work. If it starts off as a long distance but progresses into something that is a little shorter distance I think that a relationship could certainly work but I think that the benefit the greatest benefit is the way it starts and the fact that people are really having an opportunity to get to know each other deeply yeah and I think from the experiences which I've had is it's kind of in a way it's quite good because you when I had the time apart from that person I would just I would focus on my work as much as possible and when i got to see them first of all i'd have something to look forward to and then when i was with them i'd really sort of appreciate that time i was having with them so that's kind of a benefit but i know there's certain individuals who will they would really struggle to have a relationship if they can't have that physical connection um yes going on like too long a period of time like i noticed this pattern every time if i've been in a long distance relationship you're with them the first week apart it's still kind of things are very fresh the second week apart things kind of can fizzle out a little bit the third week and then each progressing week after that things start to get a little bit more difficult and it really requires quite a lot more effort from each person to kind of keep the spark alive.

1:03:54And then hopefully after three weeks, four weeks, you're going to be seeing each other again. But anything longer than that. I think it requires more. I think it requires more effort. You're absolutely right. Because if, for example, I mean, I have to be fair in the sense that if it's two people who can't afford to see each other every two, three weeks or every month, it makes it significantly harder. So that's a factor to consider too, especially nowadays. When you think of long distance relationships back in the days, those succeeded all the time. Nowadays, people are constantly shown how and what connection is.

1:04:35So it makes it much harder to have to wait. The delaying of gratification is so much harder nowadays. So to delay gratification for two, three weeks or two months to see your partner again and to have that companionship again is so much harder in today's day than it was maybe 20, 40, 50 years ago. So I think that considering that, I do think that if someone does not have the financial means to see each other often, and if they know that they're the type of person who needs physical touch often and companionship and affection, then I would definitely not consider or a long distance relationship.

1:05:13But if you happen to fall for someone who you feel is compatible and aligned with you, I do think that both people could make it work and get creative with showing your affection and your attention and your investment in other forms throughout the time that you're not seeing each other. Do you think that, well, I guess this is more of a statement from my point, but why do you think nice guys seem to struggle so much when it comes to dating or keeping somebody where they on paper seemingly tick all the boxes that the woman is interested in? You know, maybe they're financially doing well, they're a good person, you know, they're intelligent they're generous they're doing they tick all the boxes but in a way they can almost be too nice to the point where you know that will actually push them away from the girl they really like great question i think that the reason why that happens which is very unfortunate is that I think both men and women nowadays, a large group of men and women have become addicted to intensity.

1:06:40And the quote unquote good guys that you're describing aren't always intense at first. They're respectful. They take their time. They pace themselves. They're invested into a long-term relationship with the person they're interested in. And therefore, they're not coming with the love bombing, the intensity, the grand gestures that maybe the guy who's not right for a woman might show up with, right? The performative self that the quote-unquote not good guy will show up in. And I think that I see it even with my female clients that they will say, I want someone who is a slow burn and someone who is a good guy who is intentional about pursuing a relationship with me.

1:07:31And then they meet these guys and then they're just not as excited. And they're like, I just, I just didn't feel the chemistry. And I'm like, no, no, no. It's not that there wasn't compatibility there. It's that you have been conditioned by society and by modern dating to associate stimulation with chemistry and chemistry with compatibility. And those three things are very different things. So you're looking for intensity. You're looking for someone who tells you that he is starting to fall in love with you on the first date and someone who can't seem to think of anything else but you and can't wait to see you again tomorrow and the day after.

1:08:13The issue with those types of, I call them short distance sprinters and long distance runners. The good guys are the long distance runners. A lot of people nowadays are looking for short distance sprinters. The people who come out with, they're coming out hot. They're coming out with the intensity, with the love bombing, with the grand gestures, and they fizzle out just as quickly, right? And they could only go a short distance. And then a lot of people come to me after that and they go, but it was so incredible the first couple of weeks. I know because he was a short distance sprinter. He doesn't have the capacity to run the full distance.

1:08:54That's the good guy that you told me is too boring. you know and so i think that there is a discrepancy within all of us nowadays that we say we want one thing but our biochemistry is so used to something else that we're getting more and more confused as to why this is happening do you think a lot of women have unrealistic expectations of what they should be getting from a man or what type of man they should be able to get I don't think that women have unrealistic standards. However, I think that both men and women are confusing preferences with requirements. And I think that's the problem. I think people are prioritizing their preferences for attraction.

1:09:48preferences meaning a person's height a person's financial status a person's looks a person's culture they're confusing that with a relationship requirement which is what's this person's capacity what's their conflict repair are they emotionally available for this relationship. And when you are prioritizing preferences in the men that you're seeking, you are going to continue getting let down because you're not assessing for the right things. Sure, this person's handsome. Sure, this person might even be rich and they might treat you well in the beginning, but you didn't assess for the right things.

1:10:32And so I think that it's not that women or men have unrealistic expectations. I just think that more and more people are looking for stimulation instead of connection. And I think that they're confusing preferences with requirements. I don't think they're asking the right questions and assessing the way that they should be, as you described. I don't think there's many people doing that at all, unfortunately. Do you think men have unrealistic expectations of women? no i think i think to be honest it's probably more simple i think more most guys would generally want a woman who is who gives them peace who is loyal who is certainly not making their life harder

1:11:26and someone who was going to be a good mother or a good partner, I would say. I think at least the guys who are actually looking for something serious. Yes. But I feel like there's a lot of guys who,

1:11:43they ignore the red flags and then they complain about it. And I'm like, well, what the hell did you expect? like you're literally you're complaining about this woman like going out and partying and being a hoe or whatever and it's like well it was right in front of your face like you're an idiot for not spotting it so that always makes me laugh when guys complain yeah because they and women do it too but that's that's kind of what i mentioned earlier that men have more clarity after they are intimate with women than before. So although he saw the red flags before, he had a goal in mind. And sometimes it's not even in his conscious mind that he thinks of this goal.

1:12:25It's just that I want to be intimate. I want to be with this woman. And so I think that you mentioned some good, the simplicity of what men are looking for, which I often hear from both my male clients or from my female clients. I think there's a nuance we should mention there is that yes, men are oftentimes looking for women who will bring them peace. What I'm noticing more often now in modern dating is that a lot of men want that peace, but they don't recognize that they're the leader of their relationship dynamic. And if you keep sending mixed messages to a woman, and if you keep being inconsistent, why would you think that she would give you peace?

1:13:12Why would you think that she would be easy when you call her and not want to argue? And I'm not saying that's for all men, but I do think that both men and women sometimes cherry pick where they want to start a story and they don't really look at, okay, but everything is a reaction to something that happened before. and I think it's important for people to look at that and say okay is this person just meant you know emotionally unstable and just reactive or have I done something and I should take accountability for what I may have done that could have caused this reaction yeah I think there's there's particularly a group of men who maybe have this idea of okay my wife or my partner should do this do this blah blah blah blah this whole list of things pleasure me um you know make my life easier give me do this do that whatever but they don't actually look at themselves and it turns out a lot of these guys usually they're out of shape you know they're fat they've let themselves go they're lazy they have no ambition they're broke they don't have any money and they're generally like in a dead-end job and they're not respected by other people like how how can you expect your wife to treat you like that when you're, you just don't have your shit together.

1:14:37Like you need to become the man and be somebody that is worthwhile of being respected. If you're going to expect her to do all of these things, like it's a two way street. It's like, I always, I see this a lot with a lot of women have these, uh, expectations of how they should be treated at the very beginning of a relationship and I always think to myself like you don't automatically just get gifted that like you can be treated like that but you have to earn it and you have to do certain things and it's usually something well especially with me I'm going to treat you better and better and better if you're proving that you're worthwhile of me treating you like that and you have to earn it by acting a certain way and it's the same thing for my part, like I have to fulfill my duty and be the man if I'm going to get you to kind of do all the things that I want you to do.

1:15:35Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that there is an incredible fear of rejection nowadays in both men and women. I think that a lot of men fear rejection and we don't talk about that enough. And I think because of the fear of rejection, they have this list of what they want women to do, but they don't fully invest themselves into that dynamic. And so kind of what we mentioned before, they're auditioning women to say, okay, well, does she check these things off before I fully invest? And the issue is, is that I think a lot of men are forgetting that they are the leader of the relationship dynamic, that they could lead a woman into exactly what they would want her to be.

1:16:17Because everything is reciprocal. If you're not leading her, she's going to take the lead herself. And then you're going to feel like this woman is combative and this woman is reactive and this woman is all these different things. But you didn't set the pace for the relationship. You didn't create the emotional safety that it required. And so I think that the fear of rejection in women manifests the way that you just explained as well, where women come out on the first date and they expect all the relationship benefits that they haven't yet earned. And that's because a lot of times these women are afraid that if they invest, they might get hurt.

1:16:55I've had female clients tell me, yeah, I want this person to buy me this purse if they want to take me on this first date. And I said, but why? You're making it transactional. And they say, well, but if it doesn't work out, at least I'll then have the purse. And so again, from a psychological perspective, the mindset is there is an intense fear of rejection nowadays. And people are not willing to emotionally risk for relationships anymore. And because of that, there's a lot of performers in the dating pool, men and women. And these performers aren't being real with themselves. And they're certainly not being real with the people they're meeting.

1:17:39And that's keeping, you know, now men have assumptions about women because of these women. and women have assumptions about men because of those men that we discussed earlier. Do you think if you are a male and he doesn't have his finances in order, he should first get his finances in order before pursuing the woman of his dreams? No. I don't think so. I mean, I think a man should be financially stable. I think that in order is a very subjective thing what if he's not though if he's not financially stable but he has the potential to be financially stable but at this point in time it's just pretty difficult and he wants to do all these things and spend on these experiences but he's not quite at the point he needs to be at yet should okay so wait well here's the thing for for guys who are in their late teens early 20s you know just okay yeah the beginnings of their career or maybe they're a little bit older and there's a career shift where they're taking a hit financially for a short period of time yes i mean i think that technically they should wait because a man typically uh associates his success with his identity.

1:19:08And if he does not feel adequate in any way, he will not be able to show up fully in the relationship. And that's going to hinder the relationship and eventually might end the relationship. However, I think that it's very subjective because a lot of men, whether they're in their teens or in their 20s, are still going to pursue the woman they want. Right. So regardless of what we decide, they're still going to do it. my assessment would be, or my advice would be, as long as a man is happy what he's doing, and he knows that he is steadily progressing to eventually get to the status he desires, I think that he could be just as emotionally available and capable to be with the woman that he desires.

1:19:53I don't think that anybody should date someone that they know or feel is out of their league because it already puts a hierarchy in place and it will trigger either person to become a performer. And that's not an authentic relationship dynamic. So if you feel inadequate about your financial status and you're after a woman whom you know is materialistic or whom you know is used to guys who spend a lot on her and those are her requirements, I think that you could try, but I think that you're going to self-sabotage it much faster than even she will if you end up getting in a relationship with her because of your own inadequacy or feelings of inadequacy.

1:20:41Have you seen successful relationships where the female is quite heavily out-earning or worth more than the male. Does that work? Yes. When I met my husband, he was figuring himself out. Again, I was in my 20s. He was figuring himself out. And I said, look, these are my standards and my relationship requirements. You're already bawling in your 20s. slow down Mike slow down um I was very ambitious and I said look I can't be with someone who doesn't have ambition and who isn't trying to grow himself and he shaped up right away and started growing himself and now makes really good money um and I make really good money but I don't, I just don't think people should get hung up on preferences that don't often have much to do with a relationship.

1:21:49There are trash truck drivers who are happy doing what they're doing and they're confident in their job and they're proud of their job. They're not making much sometimes at all. Some of them are. But if a man feels satisfied with what he's doing and he has a vision for what he's doing, I don't think that it automatically means that he will not be good in a relationship. He's only not going to be good in a relationship if he feels inadequate. And that's something that he has to work on. Yeah. I ask myself this. I have been asked a few times as to how I would deal with that scenario and if it would work.

1:22:33Yeah, how would you deal with it, Mike? i think it would short term i think it would be fine but i think right if this is a long-term thing i would feel i think deep down it would make me a little bit uncomfortable i mean it depends upon the figures that we're talking about here if i was worth 100 mil she was worth 500 mil i don't think it really matters i think we're both doing very well but if it was um slightly different to that i think i think first of all i don't think there'd be anything that would motivate me to want to make more money more so than being in a relationship where she's earning more than me and i think that's the same thing if she was like super intelligent it would naturally make me just want to be smarter so i think it's a great motivator like nothing's going to make you want to step your game up more so than that um but i guess it just depends on what their lifestyle is like and if they've got a taste for the finer things because after a certain point I'd be like look I can't do that like you're gonna have to cover this if you want to well that's the thing I think if it's if it's someone who say it's a billionaire woman and she wants a certain lifestyle then absolutely I think that could impact the relationship because you'll eventually start feeling like gosh I'm breaking my back trying to please this woman or to give her the lifestyle that she's used to.

1:23:57I think that, you know, it doesn't have to be that. I think that oftentimes men walk into adulthood with a list of, I have to have these things in order to be a good man in a relationship or to find a good woman. Whereas especially nowadays, women are more interested in emotional availability. A man who works all the time, he could be very rich, but if you're alone in your house every night. Nowadays, women are attracted to slightly different things because of the fact that there's more therapy talk and there's more awareness about relationships, health, and well-being. So it's not just about the status.

1:24:40Some women still like that. And I'm not saying all women are all men, but I do think that more often now I'm noticing women saying, yeah, it's great if a man is financially secure, but how emotionally available is he to do things with me, quality time, spend time with me, plan dates with me. I think that's becoming significantly more important now. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think a lot of women like the idea of being with a wealthy guy or a businessman or an entrepreneur, but I mean, are you prepared to pay the price of him literally working all the time and being glued to his phone and not paying you any attention?

1:25:19Like maybe it's not actually as great as you think it is. No, and that's why I always ask women to make a list, and men too, my male and my female clients, of what are the top two things for you as far as a priority. Because there's an 80-20 rule in every relationship. You have to be able to say, what's my 80 %? These are the things that I really want and need as far as my relationship requirements. And these 20%, I could deal with it. I don't cook in my marriage. that's a deal breaker for a lot of men right but that's my 20 % that I'm lacking that I'm sure another woman would make my husband very happy if she cooked for him every day right but I'm a businesswoman and I run a successful practice so for me that's that's the cost of having that kind of woman and and men and women need to figure out what's the 20 % that you could compromise on and the 80 % that you're like, no, I really need those things.

1:26:20I think a lot of people are now looking for a hundred percent. And if they can't find a hundred percent, they're like, yeah, let me see what else is in the DM or in the Bumble feed or in my messages. And it's just not realistic. Yeah. Okay. So say that again, then you'll, I'm going to use this advice as well. It's a list of things that you will, you kind of, it is more essential for you and things that you're kind of willing to tolerate yes yes so you so it's the 80 20 rule in the sense that 80 of the relationship is stable and secure and you have to figure out what are the top things in your 80 percent uh for me it's emotional availability someone who is reliable and dependable and there's consistency in the relationship financial status and all of that lower in my 80%.

1:27:14But everybody, you know, you can't have everything on your 80 % be your top two, right? You have to figure out exactly if it's 10 things in your list of 80%, what are your top two? Those are the first things to assess for in the people you're dating. And you also have to figure out, okay, what's the 20 %? I'm seeing some things in this person that I'm not loving, but will that be my 20 %? Can I live with them? Then yes. Then as a whole, you've scored a really good partner, but don't go looking for a hundred percent. Yeah. At what stage of dating should you have this conversation? Because I would imagine on the first date, you getting out pen and paper and listing everything off is probably not going to be the best way to go about that.

1:28:03No, you'll observe. I mean, you're an observational guy. So you just start observing, You observe the patterns. And that's why I encourage people to always, unless you fear for your safety and your well-being, I say that if you find someone that you decently like on the first date, give them a second date or even a third date because you'll observe the patterns. You'll be able to assess for the behavioral patterns on your list. Consistency, trust, family-oriented, the ability to repair, emotional maturity. Those are all things you'll see in the first three dates. I always say that, you know, instead of saying, how does this person like me?

1:28:46I think it's always important to say, who does this person become when they don't get what they want? And you'll be able to assess a lot from a person by looking at that.

1:28:59What is your definition of cheating in a relationship? it? Cheating is a very large spectrum of things. So there's emotional cheating, and then there's physical cheating. I think that anything that disrespects a relationship between two partners by bringing in a third party would be cheating. Now, I've had conversations before where cheating, like I said, is a spectrum that rolls very far out to the left and the right. Most of the times people think that cheating just means a man or a woman stepping out on their relationship with someone else. That's the most obvious sign of cheating, physical act of cheating, whether that's sex or just going on dates.

1:29:50There's also emotional cheating, which is having conversations when you have an emotional affair with another person while you're in a committed relationship. I also think, though, that a workaholic, for example, someone who is never around because they're always at work or work always comes first, that's cheating on your relationship, too. It's just with work now. It's just with everything else but the person you're in a relationship with. So I think cheating is not just with another person. And I think it's any time that you do not prioritize or consider your relationship as something that needs nurturing and effort on a consistent basis.

1:30:35I guess you you've kind of managed it quite well in the sense that you're a businesswoman do you ever feel that sometimes your business and the success it's having it kind of pulls you into doing more of that when it will potentially sabotage the relationship have you been aware that okay this is the thing that could happen if I'm not careful Yes, I see everything as scales. And I know that every step towards success in my career will cost me something in my life. And I always weigh out the risk analysis of, okay, what is this going to cost me? If I take on this other opportunity, it's going to take away time from my husband, from my dogs, from my self-care, from my animals, things that I value very highly.

1:31:28For me, quality of living is what makes me rich and successful, is the ability to have balance, the ability to say I don't work every day of the week. I am a successful businesswoman, but that's not because I am on my laptop or my computer or my phone 24-7, because I value the other things in my life just as much. So my scales, I'm constantly going, okay, if I'm going to hustle this week on opportunities, then next week I really need to make sure that we go on trips or, you know, we spend more time. Every night we have movie night or we do something together, a dinner or a movie night. And so I make sure that every single day I tend to the things that are important to me because I am not of the belief of waiting till the weekend or waiting till a vacation that we have planned in the future.

1:32:24I just consider life to be way too fragile for that. I was going to ask a part two on that as to whether a relationship can work if cheating has occurred but then I guess you would need to really know to what extent the cheating occurred and what type of cheating occurred you know maybe for some people the physical cheating is the absolute worst and then maybe the cheating on your work maybe isn't as bad no I agree I agree But it could absolutely work. So I've worked with plenty of couples where there's been infidelity. And I really stress the importance of not asking interrogative questions in those situations.

1:33:09And we work on trying to understand why the cheating happened. Right? We're not trying to look at who it happened with and how often it happened. We look at what happened in the relationship where, because, you know, Esther Perel talks about this a lot. When people cheat on their partner, they're not necessarily cheating on that person. It's not always personal. It more oftentimes is that they're cheating on who they become, the version they become. They want to be a single person again. They liked how energetic they were when they didn't have the responsibility of father and husband and homeowner.

1:33:51And so they kind of just want to get away from all the obligations and responsibilities. People oftentimes cheat on the version of themselves that they've become. And we don't think about that as much. So in therapy, I help people to understand what's the reason why this happened, the awareness about it. And once we do, then we could actually repair. But when people focus on interrogating, how often, who was it with, how could you do that to me, then now one person remains in the doghouse, the other person remains resentful, and the relationship never repairs. So I think that if there's been infidelity, therapy is a great resource to repair the relationship, and I certainly do think that it could actually become a source of strength to make the relationship even better than ever before.

1:34:40but you only work with people who are in LA or you work with people overseas yes so I work with people who are reside in different places so if they reside in California but they travel a lot in other places or they stay in another country or state sometimes during the year I could still work with them but as therapists we are encouraged to predominantly work with the people were licensed. Cool. Amazing. Well, I appreciate your time today. Of course. It's flown by. I've enjoyed this conversation a lot. Yeah, I was like, we just started. I could be found on Instagram, Mercedes Kauffman Therapy.

1:35:27And I think that's my main thing. And my website, which is mercedeskauffmantherapy.com. And you have a book as well? yes i do my book is the road back to you it's available on my website it is a collection of all my work from the past 14 plus years on things from addiction childhood trauma relationships boundaries self-worth and so it's like a very easy read that covers all of those topics amazing well let's um next time in in la it'd be good to do a part two because i mean something like relationships and things like this it can there's there's so much we can talk about and it's that's the funny thing i find about relationships is it's although i learn a lot about how they work as i get older there's still so much i don't fully either understand or i'm yet to experience.

1:36:22And with each relationship, I just learned something new. And that's kind of the attitude I have when a relationship ends. I'm like, well, yeah, it's, you know, it's sad. I'm a bit bummed out, but let me try and look at the positives and, you know, what I enjoyed about the relationship or what I've learned from it and how, you know, I can use that to have a more successful relationship. I love that. And I think that's the, that's the best form of education and learning. And that's what I say to people is like every relationship and every single person we meet is our teacher. And if we see it like that, then we walk away with education every single time, you know, and so I'm glad that you have that and that you're sharing that with the people who listen to you and that you use your platform for that awareness, because I don't think that people frame it like that.

1:37:06They see it just as either succeeding at something or failing at something. And it really isn't. It's just life is just a whole, you know, it's a university of life and everything is a lesson. So I'm glad to hear that. Amazing. Thank you very much once again. You're very welcome. And I look forward to continuing the talk. Thank you. I really appreciate it.