Turning a Golf Passion Into a $300M Career with Larry Hirsh

0:00The following programming is sponsored by Marc J. Bernstein. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of this station, its management, or Beasley Media Group. Entrepreneur, founder, author, and financial advisor, Marc Bernstein helps high-performing business owners turn their visions into reality. At March Forward, Marc and his partners and associates think out of the box to partner with their clients in regards to their visions for their lives, their businesses, and their legacies. And through his innovative work with the Forward Focus Forums, Mark connects entrepreneurs to resources that help to fuel their success.

0:35Founders Forum is a radio show and podcast where entrepreneurs share their journeys, reveal the stories behind their successes, and the lessons they've learned. Join Mark and his guests for a mix of inspiration, valuable insights, and a bit of fun. Now, let's dive in. Good morning, America. How are you today? We are in Philadelphia. We're at WWDB Radio in Ballot-Kinwood. And we've got some great people in the studio today. So first of all, we've got Sam and Josh on the board, engineering today. We've got Mark Wagner here as co-host. He's co-founder and CEO of RM Interiors. We've got Jen Wagner in the house.

1:16And we've got Larry. And I'm going to introduce Larry formally in a minute. But guys, usually when I think of a thought of the day, it's independent of whatever the show is going to be about, and I'd like to see where it goes. But this one is actually kind of dependent because I know both of your stories. And I've been thinking about, in fact, on Mark's show, we talked about that creation, when it comes to business, is sort of capitalizing on luck to create something sometimes if it comes around. And so, Mark, I want to ask you first about when you think of creation in regard to business, how that occurs to you based on your own experience.

1:57And I want to ask Larry the same question. So creation for me is a matter of having an intention, where you want to go or what you want to do, and then getting yourself out there. I think the luck just is when you're out there, it falls in play. And it's looking to say where you're going to go. A lot of people will turn back and say, hey, you've been lucky. But it's, I don't know if lucky is the right word, but I think creation is when creation and luck or preparedness and effort come together brings something to pass. So, and Larry, how about you? What does that mean to you in terms of, and you might want to tie it into how you created your business, although we're going to, we're going to talk about that at some point.

2:37Well, I kind of look at, you know, as far as like a thought of the day type of thing is, you know, today's the first day of the rest of your life. And I, I was a young real estate appraiser and had my own business and used to go to work and you'd come to a stoplight and look at people and they weren't very happy. And I said, I want to go to work looking forward to getting there every day. And I said, geez, I've got some real estate skills and I love being around golf and golf uses a lot of real estate. Hmm, maybe I should focus on golf courses. That's kind of how I got into it. So it's kind of luck, but more than anything else, it's wanting to have a good time every day.

3:20I love that. So we're going to hear all about Larry's story because it's a very unique business that he has. And one of the few people I think that really does it. So Larry is actually Lawrence A. Hirsch, C-R-E-M-A-I, not M-I-A, but M-A-I, S-G-A, is the president of Golf Property Analysts, a leading golf and club property consulting, appraisal and brokerage firm based in Philadelphia. He and the firm have performed consulting, appraisal, and brokerage assignments on more than 3 ,500 golf and club properties in 47 U.S. States, Canada, and the Caribbean. I'll ask you later, but I think that's got to be more than anyone else, I got to imagine, but who knows?

4:01He doesn't know. Hirsch is an award-winning author, having written the Appraisal Institute's Textile and Golf Property Valuation. So he literally wrote the book on the subject. And it's called Golf Property Analysis and Valuation, A Modern Approach, which received the Appraisal Institute's award for best text in 2016. Second edition was published in 2022. Hirsch has written, Larry has written three articles on golf and club property valuation in the Appraisal Journal, co-authored the Urban Land Institute's Residential Golf Community Development and authored many articles for a variety of industry publications.

4:40His most recent publication is titled The Culture of Golf. I want to ask you about that. Isn't it just a game? So I was thinking about, we talk about company cultures. It's probably more interesting to talk about the culture of your industry, which we could talk about. Hirsch has also lectured at seminars, meetings, and universities and is on the education faculty for the PGA of America. A founder and first president of the Society of Golf Appraisers, SGA, Larry has also developed a golf course. and brokered nearly$300 million in golf course and club properties. He's a graduate of the Penn State, Pennsylvania State University.

5:19We are, right? Penn State. Penn State. And he's married to Judy, who I've met, who is a powerhouse in her own right, and the father of three. Larry's also a licensed commercial pilot, certified flight instructor, and an active competitive golfer. Still competitive? Nah. I thought you were going to say that. Anyway, yeah, he's down to, oh, I shouldn't talk about handicaps, but he's down to a - I'm old. I'm a husband. Put it this way. He's a mid-range single digit now. I would dream to be there. Yeah, you and me both. So anyway, welcome, Larry. Good to have you here. Thank you. Good to be here, Mark.

5:57So tell us the story, because it's a very interesting story. You started to tell it a little bit, but how did you come about to this crazy business? Well, like I said, I was looking to be in something that I enjoyed doing every day because my dad always told me if you like what you do, you never work a day in your life. And I certainly didn't want to work too much. And so I decided that golf courses use a lot of real estate. And I wish I could say that when I did this, I was smart enough to foresee the golf boom of the mid-90s, but I'm not that smart. And, you know, I went out and learned the golf business.

6:41And, you know, I had spent a lot of time around golf courses as a kid. And growing up, you know, I learned to play when I was young because that was how I could spend time with my dad.

6:54And I just decided, you know, geez, if I'm not going to be good enough to really play at a high level, I might as well do something else in golf. And, you know, given the skills that I already had, it seemed like a good marriage. And, you know, I'm 71 years old and have no designs on quitting because I look forward to going to work every day. So how did you go about getting into it? How did you get started? Well, the first thing I did was I got a solid foundation in the appraisal profession and in real estate in general, which I had had from the time I was a kid. And then I started going to golf conferences, golf industry conferences, development and other operations and stuff.

7:40And I went to the PGA merchandise show and I went to the superintendent show. And I just tried to learn as much as I could. And next thing I know, they were asking me to come and speak to them because there weren't really any appraisers that had specialized in or focused on golf courses. And then in the early 90s, I met a guy in Florida by the name of Sam Hines who was the national hospitality manager and regional manager for one of the big real estate companies, the big national, international real estate companies. And we became friends, and I said to him one day, not long after I met him, I said, you know, we need to start an organization of guys like us so that we can identify to the golf course industry, the lending industry, lawyers, accountants that serve the industry, who the knowledgeable and experienced people are in the golf course business.

8:47So we started SGA and we established requirements and all that to become a member. And that's the Society of Golf Appraisers, right? Right, right. So you started that. Yeah. Yes. You were founder of two things. Yeah. And then here we are. And, you know, I've expanded my business into consulting and doing some brokerage of golf courses and, you know, a lot of it by accident. But, you know, hopefully I've treated people right. So, you know, they've asked me, hey, can you help us do this or help us do that? I know when you and I have talked before about this, you're not the least expensive guy out there, right?

9:39And I know sometimes that's been a challenge, right? Sure. Well, that's part of the appraisal profession, unfortunately. Right. So what makes you different and why do people come to you? Because it seems to me you're probably doing more deals than almost anybody when it comes to this. I don't know if we're doing more than anybody else, but what I'm trying to do is be better and get into the weeds a little bit more and pay more attention to details that are relevant details in the process and kind of speak the language of the people that are buying and selling and operating golf course and club properties.

10:23And I think we've done a pretty good job of that, you know, especially when I see the work of other people and see that we're addressing things that they're not. And, you know, my dad told me as a kid, he says, I don't care if you become a ditch digger, just dig the best ditches you can. And so that's kind of what I've applied to doing what I do. And I've never really been focused on being the biggest or making the most money. I've always really kind of figured that if I do it better than anybody else, I should be able to eat regularly. I wonder if my dad knew your dad. He said the exact same thing.

11:04He used the same example, too. So I get it. And by the way, it's break time. We're already at our halfway point. Let's take a quick commercial break, and we'll be right back on Founders Forum. The Sattel Institute is the leading CEO member organization dedicated to corporate social responsibility. Under the vision and leadership of its founder, entrepreneur and philanthropist Ed Sattel, the Institute brings together CEOs in Philadelphia and other cities to support the nonprofit organizations that do heroic work in our communities. The Sattel Institute believes that community is every leader's business.

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12:13To find out more about membership and why so many leading companies are now part of the Sattel Institute, visit the organization's website at sattelinstitute.org. Sattel, S-A-T-E-L-L, institute.org. As Ed Sattel says, think we, not just me. We're back on Founders Forum with Mark Wagner's co-host and our guest today, Larry Hirsch. This is a really cool show. This is really something interesting that so many golf fanatics out there. And I know Mark has a question for you. Larry, you had mentioned earlier that you were with the group and then that they asked you to speak. I want to know how did that come about and how did you work in that or feel about that at the time?

12:57Well, when I started going to these conferences, this was kind of before or in the beginning of the golf boom of the mid-'90s when the National Golf Foundation came out and said you've got to build a course every day to meet the demand, which became a disaster. But basically, they had an appraiser speaking, and on a couple of occasions, he wasn't able to answer some questions. So I raised my hand at the back of the room and answered the questions, and somebody must have said, oh, this guy knows what he's talking about, and they started asking me to speak. Makes sense. So very, very, like our introductions, I think that's, we talked about luck and opportunity and creation.

13:45You were in the right place, but you took the time to go out and make that happen. And I think that's what we find with founders is that you're going to go out and create it. Oh, without question. There's, you know, I, there was no educational program to learn how to appraise golf courses. I totally had to create my own learning process to be able to do what I do. And that came from going to these conferences and listening to people who were golf course managers, owners, operators, superintendents, golf pros, membership directors, whatever. You did write the book, though. I did. That's probably why.

14:22I was going to say, you literally are known as the guy who writes the book, right? And I think that gets you a lot of your gigs, I would imagine. Oh, absolutely. I mean, most of our work or a lot of our work is either problem solving or litigation support, whereas a lot of appraisers really rely on lending business, which is more of stuffing a file to fill a requirement. And our business is a little bit different. So you mentioned – a lot of times we talk about the culture of companies, and you might want to talk about that because you have some staff. There's a few of you in the company. I'm talking about that, but I'm also interested, you mentioned the culture of golf.

15:03And so I experience it as a guy who plays a fair amount of golf on a lot of courses, but from a consumer's point of view. I'm curious to your take on the culture of golf from an industry, an insider point of view. Well, as you might expect, I have some very strong feelings about that. But they kind of were born in 1986. 86. You know, I think you'll agree with me from your own experiences that the golf atmosphere environment can sometimes be a little stuffy, especially at private clubs. Oh, yeah. And I was lucky enough to play in the Pennsylvania Open at Oakmont and even luckier to have made the cut.

15:49Wow. After birdieing the last hole, which is one of my great golf accomplishments, birdieing the last hole at Oakmont to make the cut. But I was having lunch with two guys, and after the round, both of whom were on the Pennsylvania Golf Association committee. And two weeks prior to that, I had played in the Pennsylvania Amateur at Marion, and somebody wore a pair of shorts that somebody decided were too short. Somebody disconnected with the tournament, made a stink about it, and they had people going into the pro shop buying pants and walking around the golf course with unhemmed pants because nobody was allowed to wear shorts.

16:31And this was the second day, and I had the same pair of shorts on that I had worn the first day with no objections. And so I'm sitting there talking to these guys, and I said, you know, what's the big deal? Oh, there was a fiasco at Marion, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they wouldn't let us wear shorts at all at Oakmont. Wow. And I looked at this one guy and I said, it's only a game. Right. And he said, no, it's not. And there's a hospital nearby. And I pointed to the hospital. I said, can you tell that to the guy dying of cancer in that hospital? You're right. Yep. And between that and many other experiences I had after that at clubs where I either saw or just experienced a level of seriousness and intensity to what should be a recreational activity, you know, I just kind of – they piled up and I decided to write this book.

17:34And one of the most interesting interviews I had, and I write a blog where I interview people in the golf industry, was with our general manager over at Dornuck in Scotland. And I said to him one day, we played golf. We had played golf not long before that. And I said – and he came up and had a couple beers with us afterwards. And I said, Neil, how is it that you're the general manager of one of the top ten ranked courses in the world and you get to come up and drink beer with us after we're done? And he said, you know the answer to that as well as I do. And I said, what's that? He says, in your country, golf is a status symbol.

18:09And in our country, it's an every man's game. And that was really the motivation for writing the book. And, you know, it doesn't always, but golf has a great ability to connect different cultures. I mean, my best friend growing up and to this day is a black guy, black kid, Jewish kid, central Pennsylvania. Okay, picture this. And he and I became friends because he was in my sister's grade. And my sister came home one day and I had started playing golf and I was really into it. You have to meet Claude Nichols. Who's Claude Nichols? He plays golf. You know, she never said he was black. That wasn't how we grew up.

19:00And he and I became and still our best friends. And, you know, those are the kinds of things that can happen with golf if you let them. And that's one of the reasons I wrote the book. So I didn't really understand the title. I'll say it again. The Culture of Golf, Isn't It Just a Game? Now I understand it. That's amazing. And by the way, I am so glad. It's like you almost broke this hex for me because I've always been, from a young age, was intimidated. Well, first of all, growing up, even Philadelphia, you know, we weren't allowed on, I wasn't allowed on a lot of the golf courses, you know, as a kid.

19:34Couldn't join them. You couldn't, you know, you know, and, and you were only, we weren't really welcome at a lot of them. And it's, you know, and it's changed a lot, but there's still, you know, certain clubs still have their things. My grandmother didn't want me to play on the high school team because our high school team played at a course, a club that didn't allow Jews at the time. Yeah, I get that. I understand it. Yeah, it's quite a thing. And it's changed. It has changed a lot. So I'll ask you. Do you still think it has a lot of change to go? Oh, yeah. I mean, the anti-Semitic or anti-black or whatever is— I knew clubs here that didn't allow Italians in because they were too loud.

20:19Yeah, oh, yeah. And that sort of stuff is somewhat suppressed. It's still there, but it's under the rug. But I think I like to call there's three groups in golf that have been grossly underrepresented, which I call the three M's, which is millennials, minorities and moms. Millennials have been underrepresented because golf has this image of being stuffy. Minorities have been underrepresented because they haven't always been welcome. and moms or women have been underrepresented because they haven't been encouraged to play as much. Being from Phoenix, the Phoenix Open is like one of the rowdiest ones out there.

21:03Right. And there's a lot of people that are upset with that. Right. In the golf culture, right? Yeah. They don't like that, right? Pretty interesting. You know, this whole thing, Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia. So you probably know a lot about that project, what's going on there. Well, I know a little bit about it. I haven't really been involved in it, but I know a good bit about it and what it is. And I mean, it's awesome. But that goes a long way towards breaking what you're talking about. It's golf for everybody, which I love that concept. Yeah. That's really cool. What, if I were to ask you, you know, your vision over the next three years for your business and your life, what would you say?

21:41Well, right now, my biggest concern for golf is how much it costs. I'm worried where the next generation of golfers is going to come from. It's the greatest game in the world. It's social. It's physical. It's skill. It's mental. It's mental. It's a great competitive thing. You can do it your whole life. I still play with my sons all the time, which is what I live for. I used to say that the state amateur was my major. Now my major is any father and son tournament. I can get my boys to play in with me. Good call. By the way, I just have to mention, my son was a natural golfer. He used to watch Tiger Woods when he was two.

22:24And he looked just like him when he swung a golf club. Sure. So I kept saying, Jake, you got to play golf. And he's like, because that's an old man's sport. Yeah. And I asked him. I said, he was right. He was right. He was very perceptive, this kid. And I said, what's an old man? He said, 24. So when he was 24, I said, okay, you're an old man now. Let's go. He goes, Nat. He says, my brain is still developing. I never could get my daughter involved, but I took my boys out. But I have to tell you, I have a future son-in-law who loves to play, and now my son's getting interested. My son looks like he might be moving back from Colorado.

23:00Cool. So I'm getting that dream that's finally coming. You know, I took my boys out when they were really young, and I got a lot of heat. You're pushing your kids into golf, but it was the best thing I ever did. But I'm really worried about where the next generation of golfers is going to come from, given how much it costs to play and how hard a game it is, because there's no instant gratification in golf. That's what the next generation looks for a lot. You look up anything on your phone and so forth and so on. And I think that going out and spending$3 ,000 for a set of clubs, golf shoes, hats, clothes, you've got to wear the right clothes.

23:43And then even if you go to the Muni course, Jeffersonville is going to cost you close to$100 at a given time. And people say, well, geez, do I want to risk spending that much money if I don't even know if I'm going to like it and how hard it is? And I mean, I've played all my life and at times played at a reasonably high level. And right now it's really hard for me because of, you know, physical challenges. And it's frustrating. You know, it's. You and me both. Yeah. I wonder if they pushed more of the social impact that it has. Because for me, I shared with you earlier, I don't even keep score because I'm that bad.

24:21but the four hours to be out there with my wife or with my friends is priceless. Well, I'll give you the contrary to that argument, which I agree with you, but a lot of people in today's culture say that takes too much time. And that's, you know, I mean— It's an issue too. Yeah, and that's, you know, people's time is very precious today. and what could be more precious than four hours with your son? Not to you and four hours in a beautiful setting with nature to a certain extent I mean there's so many nice things about it I have a hard time justifying it and if you walk and I'm an avid walker if you walk you're going to get anywhere from 12 ,000 to 15 ,000 steps or more you know people count their steps these days by the way I get even when I'm in a cart 6 ,000 or 7 ,000 steps No, well, purposely.

25:19Like I leave the cart behind and I walk, you know. Absolutely. I do too because the cart won't go where my body was. That's the other part of the equation. That's the problem. By the way, I want to ask you because you have a really interesting one. What's your favorite book? Unreasonable Hospitality. It's a book by a guy named Will Gadara who once owned and operated the restaurant 11 Madison Park in New York, which at one time when he owned it was ranked the number one restaurant in the world. And he just relates a lot of great stories about how to treat people in business or otherwise, how to take care of people.

25:55And, you know, one of the things that really hit me in the book was he told a story about how a real estate agent, a residential real estate agent, can provide unreasonable hospitality. and it brought me back to when I was a kid because my parents were both residential real estate brokers. And all I ever remembered as a kid and growing up was how many of their clients became their good friends. And I really liked that and have tried to do that as much as possible in my business. I'm fortunate in my business that that gets to happen a lot too, which is really cool, yeah. So do you have any, one real quick thing on your legacy.

26:36What would you say about your, what would you like your legacy to be? You picked this question, by the way.

26:45I just, I would like people to remember me as somebody who treated them right and who was honest. Great last words. And right on the heels of reading that book, which is great, too. Well, I think that's it for today. Thanks for being here, Larry. Thanks for being here, Mark, and co-hosting. And thank you, Sam, for being on the board. and thank you all for listening to Founders Forum and we'll see you again next week. Founders Forum was brought to you in part by March Forward LLC. We partner with entrepreneurs like you to assist in accomplishing your future vision, your life, your business, your legacy.

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