Best Of: Colin Kaepernick / Danielle Brooks

0:00This message comes from NPR sponsor, the official Gilded Age podcast from HBO. Unpack each episode of the Gilded Age and hear from the people who bring 19th century New York to life. Watch the official Gilded Age podcast on HBO Max or listen wherever you get podcasts. From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley in Los Angeles. Today, former NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick. He took a knee during the national anthem to protest police violence and never played in the NFL again. A decade later, he says the point of that protest is still being missed. We want to stop police killing black people.

0:40And the NFL had an issue with that being said. I want people to just take a moment and think about that. why would that be an issue for anybody to say we want police to stop killing Black people? Also actor Danielle Brooks. She first became known as Tasty on Orange is the New Black. While shooting the series, she also auditioned for the Broadway revival of The Color Purple. She knew she had to be ready. I remember like they had a table with the director and producers and I went straight up to that table and I tapped that table And I was like, all my life I've had to fight. And I just remember them being like, whoa.

1:21That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.

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2:43Visit BetterHelp.com slash NPR. Cost and coverage may vary. Discount cannot be combined with insurance. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Ten years ago, quarterback Colin Kaepernick took a knee during the national anthem before San Francisco 49ers game. protesting police brutality against Black people. He said he wouldn't stand to show pride in a flag for a country that oppressed Black people and people of color. Within days, he was the most talked-about athlete in America, and after that season, he never played another NFL game. Kaepernick later filed a grievance accusing NFL owners of colluding to keep him out of the league and later reached a settlement.

3:27He went on to found the Know Your Rights Camp and a publishing company and co-created a Netflix series with Ava DuVernay about his childhood. He became a father, and through all of it, he kept training for another shot at the NFL, a shot that still has not come. Over the last decade, Kaepernick has given very few interviews. Well, now he's written a new memoir called The Perilous Fight, and it begins not with a protest against the anthem, but with Kaepernick as a black child, adopted by white parents, and growing up in a predominantly white town, learning about race in ways that would shape the rest of his life.

4:06Colin Kaepernick, welcome to Fresh Air. Tanya, thanks for having me on. Very excited for the conversation today. Well, Colin, I'd like to actually start where you begin in the book. You are eight years old. You are walking home from playing with friends. You are drunk on the freedom of being a kid in the summer. And you spot this group of middle schoolers inside of someone's open garage and you decide to walk over. And can I have you pick up and read from there? Yeah. I stopped short and the three boys stared back at me. They were all white, like almost everybody in Turlock. The boys exchanged words with each other.

4:54Then two of them sprinted towards me. The other one went off deeper into the garage. My heart jumped as they grabbed me around my arms. Hey, what are y 'all doing? They pulled me toward a large rose tree that stood next to the house. The third boy reappeared from the garage with a rope in his hands. With my back pressed against the tree, they started wrapping the rope around me. It was happening so fast, I didn't understand. All three were laughing hysterically. I began to panic and then cry. The threads of the rope, coarse and itchy, bit into my arms. Why are they doing this? Stop, I cried out, hot tears streaming down my face.

5:49What are you doing? I thought these kids were my friends. Why are they trying to tie me to a tree? Please stop, I shouted, the tears now clouding my vision. I felt thorns pressing into my back through the t-shirt I was wearing. Go back to Nigeria, d***, one of them spit out. The other two giggled in response. Just then, one of our neighbors drove by, a white man who lived on the corner. Hey, what are you kids doing, he said, slowing down in the middle of the street with a curious look on his face. My captors took off running, laughing the whole time. Thank you for reading that, Colin. You know, the start of a book often tells us a lot about the greater story that we're about to read.

6:43And kids, for better or for worse, don't often tell their parents everything they experience. And for you, a black boy adopted by white parents, you seem to instinctively know this was something you could not tell them. What made you unsure that they wouldn't have your back?

7:06I think the experiences that I had up to that point in my life. at a young age. I knew how teachers were engaging with me and the response there. I saw how the community would engage with me. I saw how people would treat me when I'm by myself versus when my parents were there. And I also knew that our house wasn't one that talked about race or talked about issues or problems more broadly. And again, instinctively as a black boy, I didn't think they would believe me. I didn't think they would have my back in that moment because I hadn't seen that show up in that way. And I think it's one of the things that I knew I had to get myself together before walking in that house.

7:54I went and got cleaned up, came downstairs, and went about the day like nothing had happened. But it was a moment that also shaped and defined me. You write about your parents that you understood they loved you. That was not a question. But that there was only so much blackness that they could stand. What did that look like in your house? it showed up in relation to how i dress the music i listen to my hairstyles who i looked up to and admired just culturally there was a pretty consistent tension and clash there just as far as who i was being a young black boy and what they thought was best being two white parents coming from Wisconsin.

8:55And my parents very much took the approach of, hey, we're going to treat all of our kids the same or treat all of them equally. And I think the intention behind that is right. But the reality is how I have to navigate the world as a young black boy and how they need to think about how they show up for a young black boy is drastically different than what my brother and sister would need as far as support. You know, one of the striking things that you write about in the book are your experiences with Black people in this mostly white town. What were your experiences with the small number of Black people that you would encounter?

9:41Yeah. Well, I would say the part that I was navigating is culturally, how do you show up as a young black boy within a community that largely doesn't have black folks in it? And where do you get guidance? Where do you get mentorship from? And I saw that from other black folks in the community in different ways. You know, some of my teammates, their mothers being ones that are looking out for me and giving me guidance and support. While we're playing sports, it showed up as friends and teammates giving me guidance in relation to navigating hair and some of the politics around that. But also more broadly, as I'm getting older, understanding how to navigate police, understanding how to navigate situations where you may be targeted, understanding how racism shows up within a community.

10:47Those are things that I had to learn outside of my household. You were naturally an athlete from a very young age, an optimum athlete. And it sounds like sports kind of became your escape. Is that a good characterization? It did become an escape in many ways. It's not to say that those issues don't still arise there. but one of the things that I always appreciated about sports is it became much more difficult for people to approach things from a subjective lens. Sports is very you won or you lost, you did your job or you didn't, you scored a touchdown or you didn't, you completed the pass or you didn't and having that level of definitive clarity that people can't manipulate to say, oh, you aren't good or you aren't capable, it becomes much more difficult when things are so objective.

11:53And I will say, particularly with football, culturally, there were more Black people within football. So I got to have more of that sense of community around it. Okay, Colin, it is August 2016. You're with the 49ers, a preseason game at home against Houston. And you're not even playing because you have gone through some surgeries, you're in a sweatsuit on the sideline, and the anthem starts. Take me to that moment. What was happening in the world and what was happening in you? Yeah, August 2016. I had, at this point, I played in the Super Bowl, had played in the NFC Championship game, back-to-back years.

12:41I've gone through this process of educating myself on Black history, on systems, on the politics of Black culture. And that had been going on for years. And then alongside that, we also are in the wave of seeing very viral and very visceral instances of police killing Black folks. We had seen this with Mike Brown, Tamir Rice, Eric Garner. But leading into the 2016 season, we see Mario Woods in San Francisco. We see Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge. We see Philando Castile in Minnesota. and having all of that history, all of that context, to be able to put those moments into a systematic issue led to the moment of when the Star Spangled Banner played, I didn't stand up for it because I didn't believe in the propaganda that the U.S.

13:53ultimately is putting out. the treatment of black people and the systems that have been built to continue to oppress black people and people of color more broadly. That's not something I was okay with. And I wasn't going to show pride in those systems that are continuing to kill us, continuing to target us and hold us back and discriminate against us. And to your point, at that point, I wasn't playing. I was coming off of injuries. But that ultimately led into the moments that followed that became the much broader conversation of the protest that I think most people are familiar with. My guest today is Colin Kaepernick.

14:38We're talking about his new memoir, The Perilous Fight. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Allianz Travel Insurance. The kids are with Grandma while you're at a resort spa in Italy for your birthday. Then your phone rings. Instead of hearing the happy birthday song you were hoping for, you hear a symphony of toddler sniffles and sneezes. Not the kind of homesickness you were expecting. You decide Grandma can't fend off the germs alone.

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15:52Member FDIC. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's get back to my interview with Colin Kaepernick. Ten years ago, as a quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers, he took a knee during the national anthem to protest police killings of Black people. He was out of the league by the next season and later filed a collusion case against the NFL, which he settled. He is the founder of the Know Your Rights Camp and started a publishing company and an AI literacy company. In 2021, he made a Netflix series with Ava DuVernay about his childhood called Colin in Black and White. His new memoir is called The Perilous Fight.

16:33In your efforts to get back into the NFL, a lot of it seems to be from an outsider. one of the stipulations for you actually coming into the fold again is not necessarily your silence, but maybe your silence about these things to just play. We did see teams and the Seattle Seahawks were one that came out and said this more explicitly. Are you going to take a knee before they brought me in for a workout? and more specifically they asked will I stop taking a knee and when I wouldn't commit to that they canceled the workout and it didn't happen so there was a goal of trying to incentivize my silence or use that as a way to be able to get me to accept an agreement for my silence, but that wasn't something I was willing to go along with.

17:42I think I can be phenomenal at my job and help a team win and also speak out to try to create a better society and better environment. Now, I also want to say

18:02the response from the NFL and the positioning of a lot of the conversation is also a little bit mind-blowing to me. Just looking at it from a fundamental level of, hey we want to stop police killing black people and the NFL had an issue with that being said I want people to just pause and take a moment and think about that why would that be an issue for anybody to say we want police to stop killing black people

18:44and as i was protesting i also was not protesting the nfl um the nfl had inserted themselves in the conversation and had taken a very clear stance and position and i want people to understand that as well because the nfl revealed who they were and their intentions and also where they sit politically in that moment simply by saying we want police to stop killing black people. Commissioner Roger Goodell has said that the league was wrong for not listening to players and that Black Lives Matter. What would it take for you to believe him? I would need to see their practices as an organization actually change.

19:37The marketing and lip service doesn't move the needle. And the commissioner, Roger Goodell, only came out and said that because there was a group of high profile NFL players that explicitly called him out in the wake of the killing of George Floyd and said the NFL needs to take this position and called out Roger Goodell specifically. So he said that in the same vein during that time period, the NFL is still blackballing me. The NFL is still targeting Eric Reid. It's still targeting Kenny Stills. Still targeting Albert Wilson, players that have been protesting. so while they said on the surface their practices actually were otherwise also the the opportunity and leverage to be able to do work directly in communities and create systemic change the NFL has significant leverage there to be able to actually affect that and they largely have not done that so for me to actually believe what they're saying and what he is saying I would actually need to see that show up in practice and not just in words.

21:04You mentioned all of those players who have stood up in protest, and you're not the first athlete even when you decided to make that step. To come to this understanding about the country and your place in it, or really the institution that you're a part of, I mean, I think we can even take it outside of sports. But for a lot of Black people in this country, it's like, Yeah, of course it's racist, but that's beside the point. I'm going to get my American dream anyway. And you actually ran into that in the league. Players who knew exactly what you knew, they agreed with you, but they did not or they felt like they could not join you in solidarity.

21:49Do you see where they were coming from as well? I understand the perspective. I just don't agree with the approach. and I think when you collectively put communities, the black community in a position where we are typically socioeconomically disadvantaged, often in low to moderate income communities and that has been done systemically, when you create opportunity where an individual has a moment to create significant wealth i understand why players are like this this isn't going to come again i'm gonna get mine and i'm gonna take it as far as i can and i understand that i also think there's a broader perspective at play that you should be able to do that and still fight for the benefit of your community and i think the the broader perspective is if this becomes a collective movement and a collective action there actually isn't a whole lot that they can do outside of being supportive in particular with the nfl being 70 plus black and if players didn't step on the field if players collectively boycotted, there is no NFL.

23:30Their bottom line, the financial structure collapses. And that is a extreme source of power for players that I think largely has been untapped and unutilized. Yeah. I mean, one player told you, I want to protest, but I need to ask my owner. and what came to mind when you heard that, that phrasing in particular?

24:03It was mind-blowing, candidly. I did not think in my lifetime I would hear a black man say, I need to ask my owner for permission.

24:19I think it speaks to the mentality that the NFL tries to breed though which is be obedient and we'll give you opportunity do as we say and you'll be rewarded for it if not we'll try to take away what you have built your lifetime towards earning and again I understand players trying to to navigate this and say you know I I'm supportive of it in theory but in practice I'm afraid to lose what I have and I think the dynamic of players being afraid to lose what they have that is an environment that the NFL has created it. Colin Kaepernick, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you so much.

25:19This has truly been a pleasure. Colin Kaepernick's memoir is called The Perilous Fight.

25:29Terry has our next interview. When Danielle Brooks started appearing in the Netflix series Orange is the New Black as the character Tasty, she was astonished to find she was recognized wherever she went. Orange was about women in prison, and Brooks played one of those women. When the series premiered in 2013, Brooks was a recent graduate of Juilliard, and Netflix was relatively new to producing original content. Two years later, while still filming Orange, she learned she'd gotten a role in the Broadway revival of The Color Purple as Sophia, the character that Oprah Winfrey played in the 1985 film.

26:06Rather than giving up one of those roles, she continued to shoot Orange while also performing on Broadway. The Color Purple had special significance for Danielle Brooks. The original production of the musical was the first Broadway show she'd ever seen. It convinced her she wanted to act and that there might be a place for a Black woman like her. She was nominated for a Tony for her performance in The Revival and was nominated for an Oscar when she played Sophia again in the 2023 movie adaptation of the Broadway musical. While preparing for this interview, I learned she played the beloved gospel singer Mahalia Jackson in a 2021 biopic for the Lifetime channel that's now streaming on several platforms.

26:46She gets to do a lot of singing in that, and as you'll hear later, it really shows off how emotionally and physically powerful her voice is. Brooks started singing and acting in church. Her mother is a minister. Her father is a recently retired deacon. Brooks was also recently in a Minecraft movie and in the series Peacemaker. Now she's in a new indie film called If I Go, Will They Miss Me? It's about how one family's life is changed when the husband and father is released from prison and returns home emotionally distant from his wife and two children. Brooks plays the wife and mother who has a steady job and is holding the family together with no help from her husband.

27:28Brooks and John Batiste are two of the executive producers. The credit music is John Batiste singing This Bitter Earth. So Danielle Brooks, welcome to Fresh Air. It's such a pleasure to be able to talk with you. Oh, Terry, it is so lovely to speak with you, too. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. So, you know, in Orange is the new black, you play a prisoner. And and now in this new movie, you're playing the wife of somebody who's been in and out of prison. Yeah. And I'm one. Oh, and in Clemency, the father of your child is on death row. so this is like the third that I'm aware of the third movie related to prison that you've been in and I wonder if you see that as related to mass incarceration like a reflection of mass incarceration when you put it like that I'm like man I need to do play I don't know a royal queen or something.

28:25Well, you come close and Mahalia. Hey, I love that. Yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah, this is the world we live in, you know, and for me, I'm always searching, reaching for honesty and truthfulness in what is in this world. You know, I feel like I've been able to do a lot in my career, but yet we do find ourselves back in places like this. You know, when you mentioned like playing a woman that's incarcerated. When it comes to Orange is the New Black and playing Tasty, this inmate, there was just so much complexity to who she was, you know, and to be honest, Terry, I didn't want to play Tasty in the beginning.

29:19Why not? You know, because she was an inmate and because I was nervous coming out of Juilliard, 21 years old, like, oh, my gosh, I'm about to play an inmate. And what is that, you know, saying about black women? You know, what viewpoint am I putting out about black women? But then I remember my audition and the casting director saying, you know, I know what's on the page, but she's very lighthearted. She has a lot of heart to who she is, joy to who she is. And I was so excited because I was like, that's the direction I was already planning on going with her. And you see me singing, you know, in the shower, you know, in the beginning, that's the first scene is me singing, tell me something good.

30:14And it's just, that's what drew me to her. It was more to her. She was a young woman who actually did not commit the crime. She was in foster care. You know, she started a riot, you know. There was just a lot to the person, you know. And I find that to be true with clemency. And if I go, will they miss me especially? So John Batiste is one of the executive producers of the film, and he sings the credit music, The Spitter Earth, which Dinah Washington had a popular recording of. And wondering, I know he went to Juilliard. Did you know each other in Juilliard? We did. And you've recorded together also.

31:03Yes, we did. John Bautista and I were at Juilliard at the same time, and we also graduated the same year. I remember watching him in the halls, and he was a hoot. I mean, this man would be running around with that small miniature piano that he plays in his hand, blowing it, you know, as like if he was on a line in New Orleans, you know, with his friends behind him jamming in the cafeteria. And I was like, who the heck is this man? You know, he was just so such an like artiste, you know what I mean? Like artsy fartsy kid from New Orleans. Did you introduce yourself to him? I think we just knew each other because we were black kids at Juilliard.

31:48It's not but so many of us. You know what I mean? And so I actually remember we would do these like crossovers. So it's where like the drama division would hang out with the musician. So he was in the jazz department and we would jam. And I remember like John would play something and they asked one of the actors to sing with him. And I remember that was the thing. So it was like a call and repeat type thing where he would play like a doodle. Do, do, do, do, do. And I would repeat it with my voice, you know. So I just feel like we bonded from that. And then, you know, we had like the Martin Luther King days where all the black people would get together and others, too, and put on a show in reverence of MLK.

32:40Like, so we just found each other. You know what I mean? We built that community. And then from there on, like, I did an EP of my own music called Four. And I asked John, once we graduated, if he would be on that. And he did. And then he asked me to do a Christmas song with him for Spotify. And I did. And then we did Color Purple together. You know, like it was just so it's just so many like full circle, beautiful moments that we've been able to share. We're listening to Terry Gross's interview with Danielle Brooks. She co-stars in the new film, If I Go, Will They Miss Me? Brooks first became known as Tasty on Orange is the New Black.

33:23We'll hear more of Terry's conversation with Danielle Brooks after a break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Allianz Travel Insurance. You stopped for something to eat on the family road trip. The vending machine ate your dollar instead. You think about breaking the glass, but you're just hangry, not a thief. But someone else has sticky fingers. Now the back window of your rental car is broken and all your bags are gone. Stolen baggage benefits, rental car protection, and 24-7 assistance can help get your trip back up to speed.

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34:48magic in every moment. Learn more at bowlandbranch.com with code NPR. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Danielle Brooks. She stars in the new film If I Go, Will They Miss Me? Brooks first became known as Tasty on Orange is the New Black. She later played Sophia in the Broadway revival of The Color Purple and reprised the role in the 2023 film adaptation. She's also portrayed gospel legend Mahalia Jackson and a lifetime biopic. So I want to talk about your singing. I want to play Hell No from the movie version of The Color Purple. But first, what was your audition for the Broadway revival when you first got to play Sophia?

35:35Oh my gosh, Terry. So, I mean, it's layered, okay? because I had seen The Color Purple on Broadway at 15. My dad had taken me. And, you know, I go to Juilliard. That was a big deal because you were from Greensville, South Carolina. Oh, yes. It was huge. And so you were doing an internship in New York and you got to see The Color Purple. Yes. Your first Broadway show. Yes, took me to the Broadway show Color Purple because, to be honest, at the time, and that's a whole other conversation, But that was the only black show outside or considered the only black show outside of The Lion King, which is actually about animals played by black actors that was on Broadway at the time.

36:20And so, yeah, my dad took me. I was in awe. My jaw was on the floor, tears falling down my face. I was like, this is what I want to do. So what was your audition song? Hell no. Oh, wow. I auditioned with y 'all, no. And I remember like they had this. Was that your choice or their choice? No, that's their choice. They want to make sure that that's what we were singing. Yeah, for sure. But I remember like they had a table with the director and producers. And I went straight up to that table and I tapped that table. And I was like, all my life I've had to fight. And I just remember them being like, whoa.

37:00And I could feel them being like, yeah, this is our Sophia. because of course Sophia would have enough kahunas to come up to the table and get right in our face. That's great. So let's hear the real thing. So this is Sophia basically saying to Celie, if a man raises his hand to you, hell no, fight back. Don't take it. All my life, I've had to fight. I had to fight my daddy, had to fight my brothers, my cousins. My uncles too But I never, never, never, never, never, never Thought I'd have to fight In my own house I feel sorry for you to tell you the truth. You remind me of my mama under your husband's thumb.

38:11No, you under your husband's foot. What he say go away. Oh, man, I love that. You sound so good in that one of the hardest things in a musical, I think, is to get from the dialogue into the song. Mm-hmm. And I'm wondering what that was like for you. like what how you do how you try to make that transition from dialogue to song well I think you know we're taught when it's time to sing it's the most heightened moment of the section you know whatever part right it's too big to express just through exactly spoken word exactly And so I think that just helps you as an actor to know the movement of the piece.

39:00And that was exciting to get to do that. Because I'm not a musical theater girl like people think, Terry. I had done only one other musical before that, and that was Rent. And I didn't grow up. Where were you in Rent? I was the soloist, the 525 ,600, the main soloist in Seasons of Love who hits the high note. Oh, was this on Broadway? No, this was in Ithaca, New York at a theater, a regional theater. Yeah. And I didn't grow up, you know, listening to all the musical theater songs. I was a church girl. Yeah, but you sang in church, right? Yes, I sang in church. from four, three, four years old.

39:53I was singing in church and wasn't much of a soloist to say. I was definitely a part of the choir. And there's video of me singing in church when I did have solos. And you can see I'm so shy. Like I literally had the lyrics, like the words, you know, written on a piece of paper. And I'm looking at them because I'm so scared that I'm going to forget them. Super shy back then. How did you get from super shy to singing a song like Hell No? God, truly. I feel like, you know what? This is what I'll say. For me, when I am playing a character, I get to escape. And that is my favorite place to be because I get to not be Danielle.

40:43When someone would ask me to sing as Danielle, it would terrify me. But ask me to sing as Sophia, ask me to sing as Mahalia, I got you. Because it was my way of like hiding behind the character. So let's talk more about singing and church. What were some of your favorite gospel songs? Oh, that is such a good question. Oh man, there was this song. It goes, I have some good days. I've had some hills to climb. I've had some weary days and some sleepless nights. But when I look around and I think things over, all of my good days outweigh my bad days. And I won't, I won't complain. That was one of my favorite songs.

41:55What made it one of your favorites? Well, when I was six, or six or seven, I don't remember. It was my first church solo. Now, what does a six, seven-year-old know about complaining in good days and bad days? I don't know. But that was my song. And then when I became an adult, I understood what that song meant. Did you hear a lot of Mahalia Jackson when you were growing up? I did. I did. Yeah, she definitely was in our home for sure. My mother's a singer as well. Oh, okay. So when you got the part as Mahalia Jackson in a movie that's officially called Robin Roberts Presents Mahalia, and your parents must have been so excited because your mother is a minister and your father was a deacon.

42:52Yes, the church was so excited. And, you know, the movie actually dropped during the pandemic. In 2021. Yeah. So what we did was we did a private screening for the church that I grew up in, in Simpsonville, South Carolina, Bethlehem Baptist Church. And everybody stayed in their cars. And we got a huge projector out in the parking lot. And everyone listened from a radio station and watched it like old school, you know, movies. They watched it in their cars. And that was so cool, you know, like this place that I really do think helped me to love the theater. Believe it or not, like the church is where I think my love for theater came.

43:41To be able to share something with them that I knew was going to be meaningful. So I want to play you as Mahalia Jackson from the soundtrack of the movie. And what I want to play is My God is Real. Oh, wow. You sound great on this, so let's hear it. This is my guest, Danielle Brooks.

44:13There are some things

44:20I may not know There are some places, dear Lord, I cannot go

44:40But I am sure of this one thing

44:54That God is real For I can feel Him in my soul So, it's a beautiful song, and you sing it so well. What did you have to do with your singing to sound like you were Mahalia Jackson for the movie? It's hairy. We worked on music for probably two weeks, I think, because I did sing all of that. And the hardest part was getting rid of the things that I was taught at Juilliard, to be honest, which is one of the things that they taught us, you know, and gave us in our toolbox. It's like knowing when to throw, you know, the baby out with the bathwater, as one might say, you know, letting go of the technique when it's time.

45:50And that's what I had to do. Like, so, for example, you know, when she says cheering, you know, I was I would be singing children and I had to stop myself. And like, why am I saying children? She would say cheering, you know, or just like not over articulate. things. I'm going to meet Abram and Isaac. You know, normally I would be like, I'm going to meet Abram and like articulating all of the, you know, consonants and stuff. Like I had to really break it down in kind of like a Shakespearean way. Like I would with, with Shakespeare and, you know, you have iambic pentameter and things like that.

46:33And, um, you just have to, it's like a code. You got to create a code for yourself to understand how this woman speaks and where she speaks from and how she uses language, you know. And that's the thing, like Mahalia sings all the way down in her feet, you know. So when I would do this, I would be barefoot when I was in the studio, you know, because you really do need to be that. it's that low. To be honest, she sings from another place too, but I'm trying to be respectful. You know, but that core space is where she sang from. So you grew up very churched with your mother a minister and your father a deacon.

47:26And was it, did you grow up with the feeling that your parents had a special connection to God? Oh, for sure. I mean, my mother was a praying and still is a very prayed up woman. She would be the one at 6 a.m. You would hear her downstairs in the living room, speaking in tongues, praying, talking to God. You know, it was, yeah, she woke you up in prayer. And at the time, you know, we had two floors and she would turn up the music like you had speakers in each room, even though we was not rich, even though that sounds very rich. We had these speakers in our house and she would play gospel music on Saturdays at probably eight in the morning to wake me and my brother up to clean the house.

48:20which sounds so old school now that I'm saying it back to you because nobody's really asked me questions like that but um and my dad was too you know he wasn't as um forth showing if that's the right word to say or like he wasn't as showy with his relationship with God like he went to church all the time and obviously was a deacon but like my mother was the one you saw like in worship all the time and still is. Did you speak in tongues? No, no, not at all. Like, no, definitely did not. I would say I do feel that I have a wonderful connection to God, you know, in the spirit and still practice Christianity and go to church on Sundays with my family, you know, and I am in, I listen to gospel music like no other genre, because it just soothes my soul.

49:24And I feel like gospel music has always been that for me, my helpmate in life. So feeling that your parents were kind of had a special relationship with God and were like God's representative or close to God, did it make you like in awe of your parents? Did Did you feel like you couldn't misbehave because that would be misbehaving in front of God in a way that people's regular parents who weren't leaders of the church wouldn't feel? Yeah, for sure. There was a lot of pressure as a kid to be perfect. I think that's like probably one of those things in my adulthood I'm still going to therapy for.

50:09You know, it's like this sense of perfection. not getting anything wrong and you know the Bible says honor thy father and mothers that your days may be long on this earth and so that rang very true in my house you know we we needed to do what our parents wanted us to do there was no way around it you know and if you had slip-ups you just it just the guilt that weighed on you you know was heavy for me and I don't know if it stemmed from me doing pageants at church you know and they taught you how to hold your feet and how to stand and I don't know it's just this perfection that was built in me pretty early and maybe it's being the first child you know and the responsibilities of being a good example to my brother you know and in my I say I respectfully say this, you know, but I think my mom really cared a lot about what others thought.

51:14And I say respectfully, mom, if you hear this, but, um, you know, uh, I think that had a lot to do with it is what do people see? What did they want you to do that you didn't want to do? Oh, that's a deep question. Uh, well, one thing, you know, was there was a fear of me going to Juilliard. My mother was really scared for me. And my dad said to me, he's like, I want you to follow your heart. And so I did, you know, I went to Juilliard and she was just scared of like, you know, being in New York and her child leaving at 17. And then she was nervous about me doing Orange is the New Black. And then my father again was like, follow your heart.

52:00And I did. And that It changed my life, you know, but then there was that fear of like, what is she being exposed to? You know, there's a lot, the subject matter of lesbians and gays was all up and in between Orange is the New Black. So that was a fear, you know, of what I was being taught. Foul language. Foul language. I mean, we had... Drugs. Come on, the list goes on and on. Yeah, I can keep going, yeah. So, yeah, Mama was shooketh, but she got over it. She really started to see the beauty of the show as time went on. Danielle Brooks, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.

52:45Thank you, Terry. Thank you for having me. Danielle Brooks stars in the new movie If I Go, Will They Miss Me. She spoke with Terry Gross. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer this week is Adam Staniszewski. With Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley. Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Google Workspace with Gemini. One subscription that does it all. personalized AI and premium business versions of Gmail, Google Docs, Drive, and more.

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