Best Of: Meshell Ndegeocello / Betty Gilpin

0:00This message comes from Capella University. That spark you feel? That's your drive for more. Capella University's FlexPath Learning Format lets you earn your degree at your pace, without putting life on pause. Learn more at capella.edu. From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley in Los Angeles. Today, singer, songwriter, and bassist Michelle Indigia Cello. She helped define the sound of neo-soul, blending funk, jazz, and R &B into music that was unmistakably her own. Now on her new album, Synonym, she's taking familiar duets and turning them into something unexpected.

0:39This album is not just about rearranging chords and rhythms, but also about queerness, visibility, liberation. Plus actor Betty Gilpin. In Widow's Bay, she plays a new bride in the 1700s who finds herself caught in a terrifying satanic curse. The series walks a fine line between horror and comedy. Here's how Gilpin approached it. I was like, okay, I'm just going to treat this like it's a 1702 rom-com and then be as shocked as my character when it's less When Harry Met Sally, more exorcist goes camping. And rock critic Kin Tucker reviews some newly released recordings by Stevie Wonder. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.

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3:01This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. My guest is Michelle Indeghiaccello, and you might recognize her vocals and bass from this song.

3:34You're dying, crying. Ooh, ooh, ooh. The wild night is falling. That's Michelle Indeggiocello with John Mellencamp covering Van Morrison's Wild Night in 1994. By then, Indeggiocello was already making a name for herself with music that defied easy categorization. Her songs could ache with romantic longing while celebrating Black beauty and sensuality and the freedom to define yourself. She once described them as broken-hearted revolutionary love songs. Over three decades, she's moved between funk, soul, jazz, and rock, composed music for television, including Ava DuVernay's Queen Sugar, and created an acclaimed musical tribute to James Baldwin.

4:30Now on her new album, Synonym, Indeggio Cello reimagines familiar duets with an eclectic group of artists, from Shaka Khan to Brandi Carlile, creating arrangements that challenge how we hear songs we thought we knew. Like this version of the Human League's 1981 hit, Don't You Want Me, which she records with Cat Power. Don't, don't you want me You know I can't believe it When you say that you don't need me It's much too late to find When you think you changed your mind You better change it back

5:12Don't you want me, baby Don't you want me Michelle and Deggio Cello, welcome to Fresh Air. Oh, wow. Thanks for having me. It's such a pleasure. What a groove that song is. And you know, I was thinking as I've been listening to it that the original version by The Human League, it always sounded to me like a plea to be wanted. And in this version with Cat Power, nobody is begging. It is such a groovy kind of island-like feel. What did you hear in the original that you wanted to bring out? Oh, I thought it was this anthem at the time when I first heard it of such vulnerability. Yet the so-called man in the song is also saying, you know, I made you.

6:12How can you leave me? So it's kind of cheeky and weird in a way. And I think that bass line just speaks for itself. and production-wise, we just, I don't know. I think Lee Scratch Perry's Ghost came in and was like, do it like this. You've said Cat Power during the recording of this kind of taught you something about using your own voice rather than imitating the original. What were you doing differently as a vocalist because of her? Oh, like I had made a scratch vocal and I kind of really stuck to the melody. And she totally deconstructed it and heard it how she felt it in her body and mind. And it just made me, once I got her track back, approach it in a totally different way.

7:02And I think that's when we also re-envisioned the drums. It's like, yeah, Cat and the Ghost of Other Feelings came in. And I had to remember, that's what I enjoy about music. It's unifying. you can get five people in a room and they're unified through one song, or you have this great composition, an outline, now it's time for me to create a different palette and paint it differently. She's a great song stylist, and I know we have these differentiations and genres, but to me, she's like a jazz singer. She took a standard and made it her own. And that really opened me up. What is so interesting, I mean, about this album is you're really taking us in a different space to think about things outside of the particular voices and relationships with songs that we typically have, especially these classic ones.

8:07And the next song I want to play is one that I think almost everybody knows. It's Sonny and Cher's I Got You, Babe, which was originally written by Sonny. He composed the song for himself and Cher in 1965. That original version, there's something so sweet and almost defiant about the original. It's like two people who are insisting that they have each other, and that's enough. I want to play your arrangement with British singer-songwriter Anoni. Let's listen.

9:04We've got you baby. Baby. I got you baby. I got you baby. I got flowers in the spring. I got you to wear my ring. When I'm sad you're such a clown. And I get scared when you're not around Oh my gosh. Can I just say, I mean, I just, I love this version. It makes me just want to run and twirl and like, I just, it's such a beautiful arrangement. I just want to tell you that first off, give you your flowers with that. Well, I want to share those flowers with Levon Henry, someone who's very, very important to me. and I just knew like our souls were aligned in a deep friendship through music and I've watched them grow but when I had an idea for the song I sort of I gave him my emotional wants and desires and hopes for the track and he came back with that arrangement for horns And I just want to talk about the importance of an arranger.

10:29And that's what I really hope people notice on the record, is that I just want to show and highlight that that's what I love to do. And I come from, my dad played in the Army Blues, Pershing Zone. He played Ford's Inauguration, Reagan's, and he played in their big band. And they would have guest arrangers to keep the music fresh. And so I learned that as a young child. Like that person, you don't know their name, but they're very important to a project. You have also said Anoni challenged you as a singer, too. Yeah, definitely. What did she bring out in your voice that surprised you? You two together.

11:13It's so powerful. Yeah, again, I sung the song. I just sung the melody that was there. And then Anoni sent back her track. and it just was like humbling because she also wrote in an email like you need to do yours again and you need to just kind of rethink some things or phrasing is you know she just had ideas and directions and I have to say like when you get a certain place in your career people make grand assumptions that you don't want to be told what to do or given ideas and I love when people go like, why don't you try this and do this? And it just really keeps my mind fresh and open. I get that.

11:58And I totally get too, as you get further and further in your career, people are less likely to correct you. And it's such a disservice because it doesn't help you grow as an artist. And from my understanding, it seems like that's what you're constantly on this journey of trying to grow. Oh, yeah. I realize sometimes I'm the elder and sometimes I'm the the youngest person in the room. And sometimes I'm right in the middle. And I realize we're all on this journey together. And we're all doing the best we can. And I'm really okay with what I don't know. And I think I've only gotten this far because I've been able to admit what I don't know.

12:41Your voice is so husky in this arrangement. And I've heard you say your voice has changed as you gotten older. Has it changed what you can express as a singer? No, it's just a different color to paint with. Toshi Reagan says, you know, as you age, you lose those falsetta points. So yeah, you lose, I've lost a lot of range. But I just, this is my natural voice, and I'm a huge fan of Scott Walker. And so it's just a color I have. And plus, I thought it was a nice contrast to Anoni. I try to use my voice in a way that communicates like, you know, in church you got call and response or sometimes vocals can be a grounding and I'm just trying to really approach it that way as I'm trying to emit something to you, communicate a story and use my voice and storytelling to aid in that song's, you know, service.

13:47If you're just joining us, my guest is Michelle Indigia Cello. Her new album is called Synonym. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Thumbtack. Some tasks can feel easy, but home projects can bring second guesses. Is that noise normal? Is that water damage? Who should be called? That's where Thumbtack comes in. Just upload a photo or voice note, and it uses AI-powered search to match with the right top-rated local pro. So instead of guessing, there's clarity and confidence when hiring.

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15:07No catching up on manual edits. No more guesswork. HubSpot's self-updating CRM keeps your customer context current and helps you understand what to do next. So marketing builds more demand, sales wins more deals, and customers keep coming back. Learn more at HubSpot.com. You know, many of these songs, they began as male-female duets. And you've reimagined them with artists like Anoni. and you called the album an expression of queer liberation, but you have also said you hope gender is one of the last things that listeners notice. Oh, wow, you're really getting me on something that's been... You know, last week, Michelle Martin asked me about these tunes being sung by people of the same gender and I told her it was the last thing a person should think about.

16:00And that's true in that I want people to hear the music and just feel the feelings it brings. But I realized afterwards what she was asking, and I think I was just nervous. I guess the climate we're in, I can't say I'm not affected. But yes, the songs here were intentionally reimagined with people who are same-gendered or similarly gendered or non-gendered in similar ways. And this album is not just about rearranging chords and rhythms, but also about queerness and self-expression, visibility, liberation. And like these songs are synonyms for their originals, that liberation is a synonym for the liberation of black and brown people, of immigrants, of women, and Jewish people, and Palestinian people, and indigenous people.

16:53because we might be very different, but we all live in these margins, and sharing the struggle for our rights and safety and dreams is extremely meaningful and powerful to me. You've said in particular that music is one of the rare times when you feel raceless and genderless, and I want to understand that experience. when you're completely inside the music, what changes in how you experience yourself? You know, I had a certain kind of upbringing, and the music was the only place I could find comfort, you know, or ease or camaraderie. Do you remember the first time you felt that? Oh, yeah, definitely.

17:46I mean, I played go-go music, and I would play like three nights a week for hundreds of people. You know, and you could see how they were affected by the music, the way they danced and interacted. And I knew I was a part of something that moved people or a catharsis or, you know, two hours of fun on the weekend. And for those who don't know, DC, Go-Go is kind of like DC's homegrown answer to funk music. Yeah. And it's like, to me, it's punk. It's everything. I mean, it's like, it has so much of the diaspora in it. But at the same time, it's very uniquely black American music. It's solely unique.

18:35The drummer plays for like an hour and a half, rarely stopping for maybe a few bars or so. But it's kind of a steady tempo. You have to be able to grind to it or dance certain movements. It's also what helps me, I think, the arranger that I am, because you would take popular songs from the radio and you would make them fit into the go-go genre. Go-go music, you mentioned how the crowd is with you. It's a back and forth. It's a call and response. And you're playing with other musicians. So it's a group of you creating the sound together. What do you remember feeling in that moment, though? Did you realize it kind of like as a freedom at the time?

19:22Or did you come to understand it that way later? Freedom. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a very, like, a lot of religious dogma. What was your family? Oh, born-again Christians. Okay, yeah. Like Baptist or Protestant? Yeah, Baptist. My mother's from Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, and my father is from Richmond, Virginia, and my grandparents, you know, from the South as well. I had all those biblical stories and so I think music to me was all like you know not only something that brings you solace it's a way to connect to the creator I just I think I've always embodied that and so I mean listening to music was the beginning I could close my eyes and not be me I could live in the music if that makes sense my father practiced all the time so I could watch somebody and listen to someone just play the same thing over and over again like a raga or a mantra and there's something powerful in that in the breath this is only hindsight but like I describe my life as a childhood upbringing one of chaos and jubilation you know So music.

20:50Those too. Yeah. Yeah, music was a transcendent force, especially with the chaos. Yeah. Your dad, you tell the stories about, your dad was a saxophonist with an army band. And you've told these vivid stories in the past of how the two of you would study arrangements by musicians like Duke Ellington and Count Basie. and the different ways they could interpret a song. What did your father teach you? What do you remember about those times when you guys were kind of dissecting that music? Oh, yeah, just, we would talk about tone. We would talk about comping, like when a soloist is taking, having his moment of self-expression.

21:41You know, some people love when the accompanying person is coloring out every harmony and chord in the arrangement or some soloist like where you hint at it and it allows them to be a little freer in their self-expression. We would talk about that. He was also very harsh. He was like, you're the bass players. And I think it's the reason I play the way I do. He was like, you are the foundation of the music. You are not there to have self-expression. You are the structure of the song. Oh, what does that mean? How does that change your relationship to the entire arrangement when you are seen as that?

22:24Oh, that means I have to know the song. Like the drummer, as long as he's got some idea of the time and the feel, he can kind of play what he wants and kind of guide us rhythmically. I think the bass sets the foundation of the chord, but they can still have great freedom. But if I mess up, you feel, when the bass departs, you can feel the groove and the song shift and change. Or sometimes fall apart in a good way or a bad way. The falling apart could be good. The redirection could be what you want. But the bass player, to me, is the foundation of the song, of the arrangement. I'm keeping it flowing and moving.

23:07That's how my father, because my father would play the NCO club, and his bass player, something happened, he couldn't show up. I think I was only 16, and I just started playing recently. And he was like, you're going to do this gig tonight. He was like, you just got to know the time, and you got to know, you know, just see the chord at the top and stay with the changes and, you know, just stay solid. And that's how he taught me to work with him. Like, this is your part in the tribe. Was that your first time working together? Oh, yeah, definitely. And then he didn't call the other bass player for the next couple of shows.

23:47Yeah, definitely. He was hard, and some of that stuff I look back on, I didn't like it. But then I'm so grateful, because I'm seeing now, he was just trying to make me better. Michelle Indeggiaciello, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. You too. I'm so grateful for your time and kindness. Thank you so much. Michelle Indeggiaciello's new album is called Synonym.

24:18Now to Stevie Wonder. One of his most popular and enduring releases is the 1976 double album Songs in the Key of Life. The collection debuted at number one on the Billboard Pop Charts, and its lead-off singles, I Wish and Sir Duke, each went to number one as well. It later won the Album of the Year Grammy Award. For its 50th anniversary, Wonder has released a four-song EP of previously unheard performances, and rock critic Ken Tucker has this review.

25:08Music is a world within itself With a language we all understand With an equal opportunity For all to sing, dance and clap their hands Released in 1976, Songs in the Key of Life was a big swing for Stevie Wonder, his most complex work up to that point. A double album aimed at satisfying his own increasingly ambitious music-making goals, while also generating hit singles to keep him front and center in the culture. It succeeded in every way. This EP of four unreleased songs were recorded at the same sessions, and to my ears, its lead-off number, called It's Easier, could be a hit single right now.

26:00I went to see a love position Recommended to me by a good friend Who said that his ceremony will I told him of my broken heart And how love's atorn my world I'm part of how I felt I'd be much better off in hell. He shook his head and just said, well, get it. Tell you it's easier to say love, bye-bye, than to go around with a heart that wants to cry. It's easier as that remarkable quality wonder has always possessed of lifting ordinary turns of phrase out of the commonplace to become catchy pearls of wisdom. In this case, the way Stevie sings the line, it's easier to say love bye-bye, snapping out the bye-bye with a defensive yap tells you everything the lyric is trying to say, which is that it's easier to give up than it is to work hard on a relationship, even as the rich, jaunty music is reminding you how great true earned love can be.

27:26It's a theme that's picked up by the next song, My Life Story of Love. It's my life story of love that never comes true It's that fantasy of love that leaves me so blue And fills my empty soul With love that's left unthold But keeps my lover's heart Feeling gold I'm gonna take her back I'm gonna put her in my garden I'm gonna make her mine And let her bloom into my flower, oh love And with rain and sunshine every day My Life Story of Love is a perfect example of the way wonder can take a melody that verges on Sufi sentimentality and gives it the firm spine of passion. Again, the music illustrates what he's saying, in this case, the line about that fantasy of love that leaves me so blue.

28:38as the song builds in intensity to reveal that the reality of love is so much more rewarding than its fantasy. The third song, I Can See the Sun in Late December, is another ballad, this one with a warmth meant to kindle a love in danger of growing cold. I bet you you can't even see the sun Oh, but the sun is shining right before your eyes I bet you you can't even see yourself Cause when you're lost, sometimes yourself is hard to find I can see the sun in late December I see forgotten treasures near the sea Tides that defeat identity Washing away the beauty that was in your mind I can hear the sounds you don't remember The sounds of birds and trees in harmony Coats being blown by a timber breeze Making the perfect melody left behind

30:05Here, Wunder's vocals, his lead voice as well as his own background harmonies, press hard against a melody that might otherwise be too maudlin. And his song has been heard before, recorded by Roberta Flack in 1975, in what was indeed a florid, sappy manner. Finally, there's I'm Into Livin', which can now be heard as a companion piece to the more familiar Loves in Need of Love today, the tune that kicked off songs in the key of life. I'm Into Livin' possesses a kind of debonair chipperness.

30:46I used to be the best at party giving cause parting used to be my name. I used to have the finest of the women cause playing used to be my game. Oh, but now I've given up all the things I used to do Just to spend each moment of my life with you Cause I'm into living for your love I'm into living for your sweet, sweet love L-O-V-E, love

31:31Your love

31:36I'm meant to live It's a song about living for love. And listening to it, you think, has there ever been a pop musician who's been more enthralled with the idea of committed, long-term, romantic love? To listen to Stevie Wonder on these previously unheard, half-century-old, vitally fresh songs is to hear a kind of zealous emotion all too rarely heard these days. Like the man said, Love is in need of love today. Rock critic Ken Tucker. Stevie Wonder has recently begun a European and U.S. tour in which he'll play the entire songs in the Key of Life album. Coming up, we hear from Betty Gilpin. She stars in the new season of the show The Lowdown, starring Ethan Hawke.

32:21I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from the Natural Resources Defense Council. Join the 3 million people backing NRDC's fight for air, water, and wildlife. Donate at nrdc.org slash NPR and your gift will be matched five times. This message comes from HomeServe. Got a burst pipe, HVAC outage, or electrical issue? HomeServe has your back. Go to homeserve.com slash audio for 50 % less your first year. Savings compared to renewal price, Ford and Florida. This episode's sponsor is HubSpot, which offers the following message.

33:03What if instead of updating your CRM, your CRM updated you? No catching up on manual edits, no more guesswork. HubSpot's self-updating CRM keeps your customer context current and helps you understand what to do next. So marketing builds more demand, sales wins more deals, and customers keep coming back. Learn more at HubSpot.com. The FX series The Lowdown has just started its second season and has added Emmy Award-winning actor Betty Gilpin to the cast. She recently spoke to Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Baldonado. Last month, Betty Gilpin won an Emmy Award for her guest performance in the critically acclaimed and popular Apple TV show Widow's Bay, a horror comedy about an island town that may actually be cursed.

33:52Gilpin plays a woman living in the early 1700s whose story is a vital part of the island's dark history. But even in a hoop skirt, dealing with what might be a satanic deadly curse, Gilpin manages to bring humor and intelligence to her performance. In fact, most of her characters seem to understand things that the people around them don't. The characters she plays are often more complicated than they first appear. In the Netflix series Glow, she plays a former soap opera star and new mom who reinvents herself as a professional wrestler. The role earned Gilpin three Emmy nominations. Now she's joining Ethan Hawke in the second season of The Lowdown, the FX crime noir drama created by Sterling Harjo, who also created the show Reservation Dogs.

34:46Hawke plays Lee, a self-appointed investigative journalist slash bookstore owner, out to take down corruption in Tulsa. Gilpin plays Ginger, a public defender who asks Lee for help. In this scene from this season's first episode, they're both at an awards ceremony. Lee is receiving a local journalism award, and he's just given a rambling acceptance speech while on mushrooms. The two of them meet at the bar.

35:44In the same ballpark, you know? I mean, career-wise.

35:51What? How are we at all in the same ballpark career-wise? Defend the innocent. Protect the truth. Serve justice. You wrote an article about a sensitive, rich, white guy. I wrote an expose on the fragility of the male ego. No, yeah, I know that you wrote a puff piece. It's not... Oh, wow. There's a lot of backstory. Gilpin's films include Office Romance from earlier this year and The Social Reckoning, which is in theaters now. She's also author of an extremely funny and insightful collection of essays called All the Women in My Brain and Other Concerns. Betty Gilpin, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you so much for having me.

36:34I'm so honored to be here. And congratulations on your Emmy Award. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. You'll find me much changed. The unfillable hole has been filled. I have been healed, radically healed by a statue. Exactly. I'm glad that I got you on this side of it. I'm going to start by asking you about The Lowdown. I've heard you refer to this show as zany noir, which I think is a good description. What do you to this show and this role? You know, I have two young children, five-year-old and a two-year-old daughters. and I have had the privilege of working a lot the past five years and being away a lot, which was really hard for my family and filming, you know, in Budapest and Vancouver and everywhere but New York where we live.

37:25And I had promised my husband and children, I was like, I'm not going to take another job for a long time. It's just going to be us. And then I got the offer for The Lowdown, you know, which films in Tulsa. And my husband and I watched five minutes of the first episode of the first season. And he was the one that paused it and was like, you have to do this show. And I'm so, so, so glad that I did. It was just one of the creative experiences of my life. I was looking at the poster for this season of The Lowdown, And it's very much a noir poster. You know, it has a huge image of Ethan Hawke's face in the middle.

38:02And then you're on the side in a blue dress looking very much like a female character in a film noir. Yeah. But this is a take on noir. You know, it plays with the genre and is subversive in a way. What did you and show creator Sterling Harjo think about your character and how she relates to kind of, you know, the tropes femme fatale in noir or ideas of like women who need to be saved? Funnily enough, I don't think I've played less of an archetype before. Like, I think a lot of my career, you know, 20 years of playing wives and girlfriends and femme fatales and calming wives and evil mistresses, I've played a lot of different kinds of tropes and archetypes.

38:49And it's almost like one of the many benefits of aging is that you sort of age out of being an archetype. Like, your id sort of seeps through whether you like it or not. And watching this, I was really struck by how much I look like myself. I'm used to seeing a very different person, you know, with lighting and hair and makeup and costumes. I'm used to feeling pretty removed from the character I play because a lot of times my character is a sort of fantasy. Like I have wild hair, wild makeup, wild costumes. And I was like, oh, am I entering the era where I recognize myself in a way that was very emotional?

39:33Like if I had a zit that day, it's on the screen. The wrinkles are showing and I have wrinkled clothes. And it just it was very emotional for me in a really exciting way. This is a tiny bit of a spoiler, but in the first episode when you shot someone, you're in a Weezer T-shirt. You're like a very normal person. Yes, totally. And also something about being an actress for 20 years, this weird thing has happened where because part of my job is to sort of outsource the femininity of whatever character I'm playing to different departments, costumes, hair, makeup. As a result, my femininity on my own.

40:14I don't own jewelry. I'm not stylish. I'm sort of like a human goodwill bin of like abandoned old Navy clothes. And then always play women who are like holding crystal goblets and like everything just so. Now, your last TV role was in the show Widow's Bay, which was a huge hit just earlier this year. It feels like so much time has passed. But it was just a hit earlier this year. It won 14 Emmys, including the Emmy you won for Outstanding Guest Actress in a comedy series. and for those people who didn't watch that show Widow's Bay is part horror part comedy actually it's a lot of horror and it's about a mayor of a remote New England island town who's trying to bring tourism back to the town but scary supernatural things keep happening people are in danger they're dying and it might have to do with a curse that started hundreds of years ago and you are in a very important episode that's a flashback episode set in 1702.

41:20You play the character Sarah Westcott Warren, who's brought to the island to be the second wife of the founder of the town. His first wife died and left four children. How would you describe your character? I had gotten the offer for that job and then they gave us the pilot script and then episode six. I knew as much as when I was watching the show, I was learning with the audience in real time what was really happening in the show. But I was like, OK, maybe that it sounds like my character's job is to not know much about this haunted island. And she thinks it's her pride and prejudice. So I'm just going to treat this like it's a 1702 rom-com and then be as shocked as my character when it's less when Harry Met Sally, more exorcist goes camping.

42:12I would say that, you know, my character is the surrogate for the audience. Like you're sort of seeing it through her eyes of she's from off island and experiencing this as what she thinks is her love story. And then she's sorely mistaken. Well, I want to play a scene from the show. Your character at this point is later in the episode. She's witnessed her husband kill a man and hide his body. She's witnessed people try to kill her husband, but he doesn't die. And he then traps her in their house and she manages to escape. So in this scene, she's running to see the people in the town that she trusts.

42:56She's going to tell them that they tried to kill her husband, Richard, but it didn't work. She's bursting into the room. Here's the scene. Richard is alive!

43:10Yes, we noted that with sudden distress. Be not afraid. This committee can be trusted. Then you all must listen. He is not consorting with the devil. He is the devil. I saw him struck with a knife again and again, but he died not for the good of every man, woman, and child. You must make haste and stop him immediately.

43:33There is a secret tunnel that leads to the house. There is a well at the far south eastern edge that will grant a survey of passage. You must send ten good, strong men.

43:45A merchant sailing vessel is due to depart this evening with a berth for you, Honour. You've got to be saved. But we need your help.

43:58Pour this in his drink, and he will be helpless as a babe. No, I cannot go back there. You must, or he shall know. You said he must be stopped. Now you bear the burden as well. Consider the welfare of your children. My children, I have but just met them. Sarah, please. You are our only hope against this darkness. That's a scene from Widow's Bay. You just met those kids. Yeah, I had just met them. It's so funny. You know, they had shot all nine of the other episodes before we came and, you know, shot our weird 1702 indie in the middle of their season. So we kept kind of – Hamish Linklater, who plays my husband, we were sort of like shoulder-tapping the crew being like, is this a comedy or is it horror?

44:55What did the other people do when they were here? and Katie Dippold, who is the creator. It was really profound to work with somebody like that who had taken such a risk. And I think that with Sterling Harjo too with the lowdown, I feel like there are many parallels between Widow's Bay and lowdown that they're so sort of anti-algorithm. I think there's an understandable pull in my industry to make things that are kind of like a gleaming vanilla car commercial, Like super safe, super familiar, appeal to the masses because it's really hard to get something made. And the people that are out there who are like, I'm actually going to go the other way and make something so inexplicable and strange and me and weird and, you know, unrecognizable.

45:45And then for that to kind of explode into the zeitgeist, it's sort of like it's one of those moments where you're like, oh, there's more weird me's out there than I thought there were. It's like a faith in humanity. Yes. Because Widow's Bay was very popular and critically acclaimed. Yes. Yeah. And as well it should be. And, you know, I feel a little embarrassed that that's my Emmy because I worked for seven days on it. I know that, like, people who make TV shows, you know, it's a years-long, extremely difficult, arduous process where people, you know, fry their personal lives and brains. and sob through notes and forget to book doctor's appointments for themselves because they are working all hours making this possible.

46:34And then, you know, I came in and memorized some lines and crossed my eyes and left, and I got a trophy. Now, you were nominated for three Emmys in the past for your role on the show, Glow. But last month, you won your first Emmy for Outstanding Guest Actress in a comedy series. If it's okay with you, I want to play part of the speech you gave. you wrote it in the form of a poem and here's a little part of it. Look, my family has nurses, a priest and a teacher. I'm a spray tanned narcissistic society leecher. But I want to thank all of the actors I've met. Old ladies in dressing rooms, hot guys on sets.

47:14What a privilege to spend this life laughing at crafty, watching Shakespeare in theaters, half full and drafty. Our business is stupid, but actors are the bomb. From Martindale to Milioti, my dad and my mom, to be cringe and elitist, which you're free to find fault in, let's all lean towards Sam Shepard and less towards Sam Altman. Thank you, Cosmo. My family, my daughters. That is you thanking the rest of your family. That's my guest, Betty Gilpin, accepting her Emmy Award. What was it like winning the Emmy? And I ask that because in your book, You write a lot about how that kind of recognition or wanting it or staying in the work to get it is dangerous.

47:55I think you call it being validation drunk. Yeah, I mean, I feel very lucky that it's happened now and not 10, 15 years ago. I think while I'm so happy and excited and feel so lucky, there was not one cell in me that was like, yes, finally. It was just a really nice night. And then I was excited to go home to my daughters. I mean, I don't know. I think from growing up with my parents being actors to many different degrees of success depending on the year and seeing some of the most incredible performances in theaters half full and drafty, as my nerdy poem said. And I always knew there was not a merit-based correlation between good work and recognition.

48:53But I don't know. I feel so lucky that I fell in love with it as a connection-first art form. That it was me being in my parents' dressing rooms during, like, tech rehearsals. And it was people gossiping in weird Shakespeare clown makeup. Now, when you were young, your parents said you have to go to college before you start acting. But you started acting soon after there, right? And you were starting with plays? Yeah, I went to Fordham at Lincoln Center and I started acting professionally. Yeah, I cheated the rules a little bit, like my sophomore year. I still graduated. But yeah, my first job was a dead body on Law and Order.

49:45Or I don't know, actually, maybe it was my parents came and took me out to lunch and And they were on their way to an audition and they sort of flippantly said, oh, there's a part for a sarcastic 17-year-old. And I was a college student, so I was, of course, stoned. I had had a gravity bong hit at, you know, 8 a.m. that morning and I had the confidence of a stoned person. I was like, I'm coming with you. I'm going to put my name on the sign-in sheet. And I would never, ever have the courage to do this now. But I just showed up to this audition with no knowledge of what it was or what I think I got sides, I guess, or the scene from the waiting room and just put my name on the sign and sheet and walked in.

50:28It's so crazy. And I got the part. And the person who played my brother is my husband. And we have two kids. It's crazy. It's crazy. Crazy. Well, Betty Gilpin, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so, so much for having me. It is an honor. Betty Gilpin speaking with Fresh Air producer Anne-Marie Baldonado. Gilpin stars in the new season of The Lowdown, and she just won an Emmy for her work on Widow's Bay. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Schorach, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yacunde, Anna Bauman, and Nico Gonzalez-Whistler.

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