Before You Build in Senior Care, Figure Out Who Pays

0:00But the business can't be rooted in what AI is good at. The business has to first start with what is the actual opportunity, customer opportunity, and then we can back into how AI can help. One of the things that I'm seeing pervasively and consistently in terms of companies that are more successful in an AI world, and I believe is deeply true about A Place for Mom, is most of the times an AI company works because it's able to access proprietary data on a customer segment that regular LLMs cannot access, do not have access to, will not have access to for a variety of reasons. I can speak to why A Place for Mom has this type of data.

0:45Then it becomes really interesting. But if you're competing with the same answer that you can get from Claude, then the question marks are much broader around feasibility and sustainability. Tatiana Zlatsky is CEO of A Place for Mom. Her company sits between families trying to make difficult decisions and the providers trying to serve them, which means she gets to see where the needs are real, where the business models break down, and where tech that sounds great in a pitch deck collides with actual human behavior. In this conversation, we talk about how founders can learn a market they don't already understand, why someone who's 65 and someone who's 85 might require completely different products, and why one of the first questions you need to answer in age tech is deceptively simple.

1:32Who's going to pay for this? I'm Walter Thompson. This is Fund, Build, Scale. Are you building something that's hard to explain? It can be a sign you're working on something interesting, but it also raises the risk that you're missing out on fundraising, sales, hiring, and media opportunities. I help early-stage founders sharpen the narrative. What matters? Why now? Who needs to care? And why they're the right team to make it happen. If you're preparing for a raise, a product launch, an important customer meeting, a panel discussion, or even a hiring push, I can help you pressure test your story before the stakes get higher.

2:09Visit the FundBuildScale website to learn more or email fundbuildscale at gmail.com. Tatiana, thanks very much for joining me today. I really appreciate the time. Thank you for having me. So for listeners meeting you for the first time, can you just briefly walk us through your career path from American Express to leading A Place for Mom? Sure. A Place for Mom, interestingly, you know, was a company that I found by accident, but ended up sort of meant to be in many ways. And so just taking a step back to put it all in context, I immigrated here as a young teenager and my grandparents came along for the journey.

2:54And as they got older and aged in this country and faced many health issues and care needs, my mom and I became the default family caregivers. And so the topic of the company's mission is really near and dear to my heart. And I think that was the main reason why I really selected the opportunity. I've been here over six years now. And, you know, it's really a space where there's endless work to do in order to progress solutions for both the seniors that are receiving directly the care. And importantly, the other person we think a lot about, which is the adult daughter or adult son, which is the family caregiver.

3:36It sounds like you've got, you know, two customers, not just one customer you're trying to serve. How does that work? How do you actually identify the real customer you're serving? So our customer is really primarily the caregiver. It is the adult child that takes lead in this process. They are the ones that can effectively identify mom's care needs. They are also the driving force behind location and distance of the solution, particularly if we're talking about mom moving into an assisted living facility. But even with home care agencies, proximity is important. However, we think a lot about the senior and helping the caregiver bring along the senior and making sure that the community or the home care solution really meets their specific needs.

4:31Because that makes the entire situation just much more pleasant, right, when both mom and daughter want the same thing. But we really do focus primarily on caregivers and working with them. They're the ones that reach out to us. I want to talk about kind of the market reality here for the care market. And my math could be wrong. I think the fact of what I saw was that basically every day in America, around 10 ,000 people turn 65 years old. Is that more or less on the mark? Yeah, it's staggering and it's growing. So by 2030, one in six people in the world actually will be 60 years or over. And in the U.S.

5:09specifically, people that are 65 years and over are growing at about 40 % rate between 2010 and 2020. So we expect about 56 million seniors by 2020. So it's quite a big population. Tailwinds of the market are definitely there. Why do you think, why am I not seeing more splashy headlines about, you know, care startups breaking in with huge rounds from institutional investors? Why has capital been avoiding this space? Well, I don't think it's completely avoiding the space. There are quite a bit of startups that are trying to figure out how to support the caregivers and the senior population. I would say that it's a complicated space, and I'm sure we'll talk a lot more about that.

5:59It's definitely more complex than some of the others. And what I'm seeing is a lot of people approaching this from an adjacent health tech and wellness side on one hand, which is very oriented toward consumers. And then on the other hand, there are founders and operators that are focused on B2B solutions in partnership with payers to offer services through insurance companies to families. And so I do see a little bit of both, but to your point, not as much activity as you would expect given the growth. And I think that's really because of both the complexity it brings, but also importantly, because it's not a common topic in a household.

6:51It's not something that most people plan for, which is part of the actual fundamental issue. And so because we don't understand it, because we haven't normalized it, it's not something that quickly comes to mind when starting a business. Right. And I think I think a lot of younger founders are also drawn to try to solve problems there they've seen personally or have like some tangential experience with. And so elder care might just not might just not be on their radar, I suppose. Right. I mean, our typical caregiver is in her late 50s, early 60s. You know, so my case, I was much younger as a grandchild.

7:30That happens. It doesn't happen frequently. So, you know, the founders' time in their career, to your point, is also just earlier. So that probably contributes to it as well. How frequently do you come into contact with people who are trying to, you know, sell you something brand new that is here for the care market that's going to solve a problem that they've identified that they're really, you know, are you doing a lot of proof of concepts or pilots or how open to you are? Meaning how many people reach out to us to collaborate or partner with products? Right, right, right. Oh, quite frequently.

8:04Okay. We work with over 20 million caregivers on an annual basis. And so it's a very sort of elusive and specific audience. And we've had, you know, we've had the privilege of building a trusted brand over the past 25 years. And so it is a household name for people in that moment of life. And so we have a lot of younger companies or companies that are trying to diversify into the senior care space approaches. And it's usually because they don't really understand the caregiver profile or don't have an effective way of building relationships with them. But they're not caregiver first. They're like, it's like an add-on or a pivot kind of a thing, possibly you're saying.

8:52It will be usually a segment of caregiving. So I'll give you an example. There are pointed solutions for diagnosing early memory loss onset. There are solutions for creating a safer home environment for seniors if they're going to maintain care at home. So it will be points of the journey that people are focused on solving. What's the biggest misconception early stage founders have about the aging and caregiving market? Like when you, when you, the things you pass on, is there a common thread that kind of connects those ideas? Well, you know, our business is really focused on placement and care at home and outside of home.

9:39And so we, we're transforming the business right now through AI tools to really ensure that caregivers are getting the right support. And so we collaborate with others that are really in that specific niche of the problem. Caregivers are growing population in the U.S. I know we talked about seniors, but also there's 63 million Americans that are family caregivers. And that's expected to grow. And the majority of them feel incredibly overwhelmed and underprepared for this job that they are facing. and what that leads to is a loss in income, a loss in being able to actually spend time with other family members.

10:31A lot of them are part of the sandwich generation and just fear of making the wrong decision. And so that's where our business is really focused and we believe that with a great progress in technology in combination with our incredible advisors and humans that have been solving these problems for over 20 years, We're really the only company that can help families find the right care. And that's really our mission and goal is to help them make better decisions. I've been in this situation. Everyone's got different pressures facing them. But when it comes down to it, if you're trying to quantify the level of problem or level of pain, is it kind of the fear of making the wrong decision?

11:10Is it money? Is it time? What are the biggest pressures facing your customers? Yeah, look, it's all of it, right? It's an unexpected event that, as we spoke earlier in the conversation, most people don't plan for. So I would say, you know, in surveys that we've done, 80 % of family caregivers that reach out to us say that the process of finding senior care for their loved ones is very stressful and emotional. Nine out of 10 families that reach out say that they're in an active crisis. So you can imagine, you know, they feel completely overwhelmed. And about half of them are dealing with other family needs.

11:56So, you know, about half of them also have other children living in a home and or, you know, have these demanding jobs. And so it becomes a financial issue because on average, family caregivers lose over$20 ,000 annually in income. About 10 % of them have to quit their jobs. And so they're facing both financial challenges, family dynamics, and then personal stress and emotional stress, which often unfortunately leads to physical ailments with the caregivers. And so we often say that the family caregiver is the second patient and becomes the second patient through the process. I want to shift a little bit and talk about kind of segmentation in the market, because I was thinking about, you know, boomers.

12:41And that's a pretty wide category, like 1946, 1964. If you're born as if you're a late boomer, you could be in, you know, maybe you were in your mid 40s when you got your first iPhone. So you have a different relationship to technology, perhaps, than someone who was born earlier. um let's talk about that like there's a pretty sharp distinction between let's say 65 to 85 and 85 up in your experience why does that matter so much operationally you look the goals of the family as it relates to senior care matter a lot right it's similar to other highly considered purchases and decisions and families so um let's just unpack the segmentation that you alluded to.

13:23So this year, the oldest boomers are turning 80. So this group of seniors looks very different. And their goals for that chapter of their life are therefore very different from previous generations. Well, what defines them? Partially, it's their active lifestyles leading up to this. Partially it's their financial access. And, you know, they actually, as a group, at least as a segment, had a chance to save more money than some of the other groups that we've seen in the past. They're savvy in terms of wellness and activities and the kind of experience they want to have. So we have to adjust our advice to help the daughters and sons of those seniors find the right lifestyle for them.

14:24So that could entail things like really understanding the different activities that are available in the communities, the different, you know, types of cultures and people, making sure that it's a social fit. You know, maybe mom wants to bring a dog or, you know, dad really likes to go to certain museums. We want to make sure that that community has access to what they're used to. And that's a little bit different from, you know, when you have someone in their late 80s or early 90s, where the primary focus is care, care needs. So, you know, someone with advanced dementia, of course, the activities matter because we know that there's data and facts around engagement and socialization and how much that actually improves someone's life that's suffering with memory loss.

15:16And we're going to be really focused on those activities of daily living. So are they able to bathe? Are they able to feed themselves? Are they able to take the medication independently? And so what we find is the more ailments, the older the seniors are, the more the focus shifts to care needs versus lifestyle needs earlier in their journey. And when it comes to the founders who are the ones you're working with, or just ones who are just approaching the care market, from how much does deep domain expertise become like non-negotiable? You mentioned before that some of these companies didn't start out to serve the care market or didn't serve out to serve older patients or older, older users.

15:57And so how important is it that they kind of come in with some background in that versus willing to learn, which, you know, hopefully everyone is. I mean, you're asking a more fundamental question, which is how critical is it to understand and know your customer needs? And I would say that's the most important thing. So whether or not you have that knowledge from before, you make it your job to become an expert in the customer, but understanding customer needs is one of the requirements and fundamentals of being able to develop an effective business strategy, in my view. If you're coming in cold, what does good customer research look like in this space?

16:38I mean, again, it depends on what segment of the solution you're focusing. But if you were coming into my business, I would expect that you understand the different challenges facing caregivers, which, you know, you can do some online research. but, you know, we would set you up with a lot of call listening sessions and really understanding how people sound and what they're facing when they call us. The second critical component is understanding the providers. So we always send folks out into the field, spend several days with home care agencies, spend several days with communities. And by the way, that work never ends.

17:15You know, spending time with providers is something that's continuous. And then, you know, there are lots of research papers. of course that you can follow, but I think spending time with seniors and caregivers is the most important thing. So depending where you live, there are many different social groups that would provide that, but volunteering opportunities, anything that gets you closer to the problem. In terms of the care industry, like what, are there some signals that show you really solving a real problem versus a nice to have kind of superficial kind of just reducing friction kind of a thing.

17:48Well, I think that comes down to another core principle of having a successful business, which is you have to focus on outcomes. And so what is the problem that you're solving? What does the outcome look like when you've been successful? If you don't measure success and you don't measure what winning looks like, then it's really hard to know when you've, when you're doing a good job. And so I would say establishing the right metrics that are connected to actual, whether that's healthcare outcomes for families or it's, you know, other, outcomes that matter, but having a connection to results is really critical and having the right lens on what that means.

18:24And that outcome has to be connected to improving the customer's experience. Whether it's a painkiller or a vitamin, you have to be solving something for the family and then you have to be able to measure it. So it starts with customer value and understanding customer needs. Then you build on top of that the outcomes you want to drive and then you can build a winning team by having the right metrics and the right culture and serving the customers that you exist for. Just to make it like really specific for a second, I was just thinking of something like, you know, if I had an idea for people who are convalescing after, you know, a surgery or an injury and they can't, they don't have mobility.

19:02So something that maybe they're bored all the time, maybe they're frequently bored. If I had a solution for, I have an app or a device or whatever that will, you know, reduce their boredom. I can make a claim like that. But as, you know, sitting in your chair, how would you want to quantify that kind of thing as far as successful or not successful? Well, I think you bring up a use case that's fairly generic that I would advise against, which is, I think, the point of why you're bringing it up. You know, there's no competitive mode. There are other options in the market that are pretty easy to access, you know, this is not a complicated problem to solve.

19:41And so I would say, especially in the caregiving market, there's so many issues that actually are blue ocean opportunities rather than red ocean, where no one is playing, where, you know, there's a need for products. I know you and I talked briefly about the device opportunity. I'm happy to talk about that. But again, I would just go back to the customer need. Like, is it a real problem for someone that comes out of surgery? You know, I know with my family, there's like a million things that people can do, whether that was my mom or my grandparents, to entertain themselves after surgery with access to content online and, you know, the audio and the video that's really available.

20:22I think we have the opposite problem as a country right now. There's probably too much content and too much entertainment to keep anyone focused. I totally agree. Well, I would really try to define what it is that we're solving, whether or not there is a problem. Well, actually, I do want to talk about that idea, the kind of gap in the market you mentioned before. But this actually leads into kind of, I think, AI in care. It's a good segue, kind of like where it helps and where it breaks trust. Because I can easily see someone convincing themselves that, oh, I came up with an AI kind of companion app for someone who just broke their ankle and isn't as mobile.

20:55Being an AI company for X isn't a strategy. Is that something you're seeing? are people coming in with AI-driven ideas that aren't really solving problems? They're kind of AI-driven? Of course. I mean, I think one of the scariest thing about the market right now, well, the most exciting thing to me is the technology and the AI and all the problems that I think we can fix. At the same time, one of the scariest things is just how many businesses are starting and then going out of business and a lack of a business strategy or or a lack of focusing on the customer. And, you know, instead, this idea that if you build an AI company, that by itself defines success.

21:32So, you know, to me, AI democratizes information. It increases the speed and the efficacy and efficiency. And those are different, right? So you can make things better and you can make things cheaper and quicker.

21:56and, you know, those are really great opportunities to build a business, but the business can't be rooted in what AI is good at. The business has to first start with what is the actual opportunity, customer opportunity, and then we can back into how AI can help. One of the things that I'm seeing pervasively and consistently in terms of companies that are more successful in an AI world, and I believe is deeply true about A Place for Mom, is most of the times an AI company works because it's able to access proprietary data on a customer segment that regular LLMs cannot access, do not have access to, will not have access to for a variety of reasons.

22:43I can speak to why a place for mom has this type of data. Then it becomes really interesting. But if you're competing with, you know, the same answer that you can get from Claude, then, you know, the question marks are much broader around feasibility and sustainability. Where would you advise founders against deploying AI? I mean, even if they technically could. Again, I would always ask, like, can Chad GPT or Claude solve this on their own? Right. And so people will say, oh, they're not focused on that. It's like, OK, well, they're not focused on that today. But, you know, can you are you in a unique position to create value for customers?

23:25And just the bar has gotten higher because there are now these broad providers that are serving a broader set of customers really effectively. So I don't think the question changed. Just the bar for being successful got raised. And so that's one of the questions I would ask. And then, you know, not everything is AI driven. I mean, we're in a people first business. So I think the issue is people want to build an AI company that doesn't involve humans and is better than the top AI providers in the world. Well, how do you do that? Right. So if you don't you don't want to have people, you don't want to manufacture products and you want to have just an AI technology company, then you're you know, you just have to realize the competition around that.

24:02I also wanted to talk about, I guess, kind of basic unit economics just to make sure these things are sustainable. uh just to kind of give founders some monetization clarity before they start building sprawling products but in the prep call you mentioned a really important kind of like first principle you have to decide early whether you're building something that's going to be payer-based or private pay and just explain for the audience like why is that decision so consequential Yeah. So there are, if you study the customer, you will learn that they believe that there are certain services and products that should be paid for with the insurance that they purchase.

24:47And so, you know, that can include some specific care needs. That certainly includes medical devices that are being used in the home, you know, certain care management solutions. And so what I have seen is several companies, startups that started with going after the B2C angle in this space transition to going over to either a payer, you know, government insurance solution or an enterprise play. play. A Place for Mom, as an example, is different. We really are a B2C platform. That means that our service is free to families right now, at least. And we monetize the service through our network. So we're a marketplace network business.

25:50We also, as a result, only deal with private pay partners. And so those nuances are really important that there's a whole legal structure behind all those choices also that I think founders really need to understand as they unpack it. And so first it's like, okay, do we have a strength as a business to win in B2B, B2C? And if we focus on one of those, what is the problem that we're going to solve? And then what are the kind of, you know, it's healthcare. So you really have to be cognizant of understanding the regulation in which you have to operate. So it's incumbent upon the founders to really do their due diligence.

26:34And I suspect any good investor would ask about these questions in a funding round to understand, OK, have we really taken the time to know the space and where we need to be aggressive and where we have to be more conservative? Feel free to change names to protect the innocent. But can you tell a story where founders, you know, maybe they underestimated like a regulation or the sales cycle or the complexity of reimbursement? What breaks? What can go wrong? How does that manifest? Yeah, I mean, one of my colleagues from the past, a couple of years ago, started a great company which offered safety, home care safety assessments, and also would sell products as part of that assessment, right?

27:26So grips, you know, special shower benches, things like that, and made some traction. It was a B2C-focused company. Made some traction, but then really couldn't scale the business because the insight that he came across was that, you know, it was really something that folks expected their insurance to pay. And so switched gears and has a pretty successful and growing business working with the leading pairs right now. And so that was a good pivot. Took probably about 14 months to really turn the company around and focus on a different customer. But I think nothing was throwaway in terms of what they learned earlier.

28:11Just took longer to figure out where the successful sweet spot is. And I think all businesses, like you don't, I don't think most people wake up and nail it and just start a company, you know, and just sell it two years after because they're wildly successful. It's usually a journey. And I really look up to and respect people that have been running a business for a long time that took the time to understand their customers that are committed to solving deep problems, complex problems in their space. You know, if you think about, you know, Jensen as the CEO of NVIDIA and over 30 years, they're incredibly successful.

28:48But it's like, you know, he worked these 30 years to be poised and ready to run the company and the importance that it has today in the AI infrastructure world. That, to me, is very impressive. We did talk about, in that prep call, the gaps you see in the market. And you mentioned something, you described like an idea for not a device, but a concept of like a wearable or passive device that would kind of offer caregivers peace of mind. What specific problem would that solve? And for you, what was the origin of that idea? Because it seemed like a really interesting story that I could really grasp the value of immediately.

29:22Yeah, it came from my experience, right? So when my grandparents were aging, my mom and I were frantically trying to figure out if they're okay all the time, right, while working, while doing all these things in our lives. And so we tried a million different solutions. We had Alexa in their apartment. We put up Nest cameras in their apartment. We, you know, I tried to get them to use a Fitbit. Apple watches all these things and none of it really worked well and then in parallel we were using devices that I just mentioned and like auras you know something that I use all the time to track our own sleep patterns and health patterns and it just dawned on me you know that there's this huge gap of having wearables and devices that really manage seniors' health and their vitals.

30:25But importantly, that solution has to provide the caregiver all the data. So I'll just give you an example. When you have a fragile senior at home, even if you have a lot of home care hours, when they wake up in the morning or when you wake up in the morning, the first thing you want to know is, did the night go okay? Are they alive? And there's really no way to know until either a caregiver shows up or they call you, you know, you hear from them. Right. And so would it be great if you could have a device that you could wake up to and look at and see, you know, here's their heart rate overnight.

31:08Here was their, you know, breathing overnight and now they're weak or, you know, they got out of bed or they didn't fall. You know, so just understanding that they're OK and any key vitals or signals that, you know, might make you feel like, gosh, they're not, you know, I have to prioritize going there before I go to work this morning. Things like that don't exist, partially because, you know, if you think about like a Fitbit device, great, you can actually use it on a second wireless device. Meaning I could have it show up on my phone and have grandma have her phone where she's syncing with it.

31:51But at some point, grandma doesn't know how to sync this device with her phone. And if she's not syncing it with her phone on Bluetooth, I can't see it either. and so it's just too complicated for seniors of a certain age and then additionally even the fitbit or you know the aura it's like they're not made for people in their 80s and 90s what i'd love to see is you know what i told you my dream is like a silk patch you know that feels really soft to the touch and you know it's not somewhere that can be ripped off or it doesn't have to be constantly charged and so it's you know i'm not saying it's an easy thing that i would plot but most of the devices that are out there are either clunky or limited in terms of the data that they provide.

32:34And so I'm still, I always talk about, you know, kind of people reaching to reach out to me. And I've had some conversations, it seems like people are building things, but mainly they're building monitoring, you know, home products versus what I'm really looking for are vital. Right. Like a remote virtual sensor you could actually in real time just tap into like an EKG. Yes. And again, those people are focused on the healthcare setting, right? So there's a lot of people building devices to help nurses track vitals, right? But they are priced out of the market as a consumer for any of that. So that's where I see the overlap between B2B, B2C that's not being served, you know, customer that's not being served there.

33:19Yeah. I mean, the TAM on peace of mind probably is pretty big. So it sounds like a big market. I mean, if a founder pitched this to you today, what kind of proofs would you want to see to take them seriously? That's a good question. I mean, I'm always kind of looking for a few core things just in terms of any business idea should be grounded in, to your point, some key first principles and some key fundamental business ideas. So the first bucket I would want to understand is like strategic inertia. So what are our clear financial goals and what is going to be the ownership and what are going to be the set of metrics that we want to create a set of behaviors?

34:01I'd want to understand the organizational structure. So why are we set up to win? What data and access do we have that others don't? Why will we be able to have this moat over time? And then maybe one that's least talked about, but I think is absolutely critical is the cultural inertia. Why is this team going to win? To me, you know, when we're thinking about startups and founders, you're placing a bet on a person or on, you know, people, specific to people potentially. So why, you know, why that? Are they passionate? Are they committed? Do they understand the customer? Are they going to make this their life's work to really make it successful?

34:42If a first-time founder wanted to build in care or age tech, what's the first question they should ask themselves? if they wanted to build an age tech or care, like in our space. Yeah. I think it really goes back to what's the customer need? Like, what are we solving for? I don't think that we should start with we want to build an age tech, right? I think that's the problem. I don't think that that would be the right starting point. I think a better starting point is, gosh, my mom is broken because she's taking care of my grandfather. And that's really hard. And I feel really passionately about helping her figure out how we can fund his care for the next five years.

35:38And I also feel passionately about not wanting to be a burden to my children as I watch this happen. And so what I would love to do is start a company that helps with financial planning for caregiving. That's remarkable to me. You're starting with a pain point that's real. You understand, you know, a little bit about the needs and you have the passion to want to solve that. Then we can figure out, you know, is it a technology solution? Is it a human solution? Is it manufacturing? Good solution. But I think you really have to start with that passion and with that customer need. And my last question for you would be, what's one mistake you hope listeners can avoid after hearing this conversation?

36:27Well, I'd like to share the human side of it, right? Not in a business front of it, but if you allow me, you know, really the caregiving side. And if you're in a family situation where you anticipate there might be a senior care need down the future, don't wait too long. Get help early. Reach out to either a place for mom or other people that have gone through this journey or speak to your health care provider. You know, there's great geriatric doctors. But really don't wait till a crisis. plan for this as much as you can understand your options become educated before you're really facing a difficult situation so that you can make better choices for yourself for your loved ones um and for your financial situation yeah yeah i i was i was my dad's primary caregiver at the end of his life and yeah i can definitely affirm it you it it's hard to make clear-minded decisions when you are under like tremendous stress and anxiety so yeah well and your choices get smaller right if you wait till there's a real crisis the number of choices actually really shrinks yeah because then you're dealing with um you know acute care needs and if you can get someone um before end of life into a community or into a service that really prolongs their physical ability to be independent their emotional and social state.

37:56You know, that's another thing we can talk about with depression is a huge problem for seniors. And so providing socialization opportunities, you know, it can help you actually prolong and avoid some of the crises that could come. So I really feel strongly about that. Tatiana, this has been such a good conversation. Thank you so much. Super helpful. Thanks for the time. Thank you, Walter. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. The Fund Build Scale theme was written by Michael Tritter and performed by Michael and Carlos Chárez. Michael also composed Ocean, the track he heard at the top. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe and leave a rating.

38:30It helps more people find the show. You can get the Fund Build Scale newsletter on Beehive, follow along on Instagram, and if you have a guest suggestion or a question, reach me at fundbuildscale at gmail.com. Thanks for listening. Fund Build Scale is a production of Truth and Soul Media, LLC.