Michael O’Leary: Ryanair’s cost-cutting king

24:24These included Dublin to Beauvoir, Paris, Brussels, Charleroi and Stansted to Scavster near Stockholm. O 'Leary initially steered clear of crowded holiday hotspots like Spain. Instead, he was focusing on connecting these overlooked cities with London and Dublin. But these airports were sometimes mocked in the press or on comedy shows for being quite a long way from the cities advertised. Skavska, for example, is 100 kilometres away from Stockholm Centre and takes around an hour and 15 minutes in a cab. But a former sales manager for Ryanair explained Skavska might have been in the middle of nowhere, but Stansted wasn't, and that was the key.

25:01London is a huge magnet for foreign tourists. So if you get to, I mean, Stansted is, what is it, 20, 30 miles outside of London, but there's a quick train you can get in right into the heart. So if you're flying to London, you are flying to London. And if you are flying into an airport that is a bit further away from the centre of town, presumably that also means huge economic opportunities for that bit of the city. Yeah, for sure. But some of this cost cutting, you can't cut and cut and cut without the pips squeaking at some point. No, exactly. So by 1998, Ryanair was pleasing the markets with increasing profits.

25:34Some of their staff, however, were not so happy. To speed up turnaround times, Ryanair's baggage handlers had to move bags by hand instead of using conveyor belts. and that led to frequent back injuries with no sick pay. And in January, the baggage handlers staged a three-hour strike demanding better pay and union recognition. Now, this was the airline's first ever industrial action and the dispute between the handlers escalated when 2 ,000 airport staff in the same union also went off duty, shutting down Dublin Airport on the 7th of March 1998. And this is a big deal, right? Yeah, well, in fact, it's such a big deal that T-Shock, Bertie Ahern, And Taoiseach is like the Prime Minister of Republic of Ireland.

26:14He had to intervene. According to Alan Ruddock's book, Michael O 'Leary, A Life in Full Flight, the Taoiseach asked O 'Leary to come to their offices, but O 'Leary told them no, plus a few expletives. Eventually, O 'Leary agreed to talk on the phone. It's quite ballsy, though, isn't it? The Prime Minister calls you on the phone, you say, come down and talk to me. He says no. Anyway, they hammered out a deal which would see the baggage handlers abandon industrial action if Ryanair signed up to an inquiry into the dispute. He agreed to that, but he refused to move an inch on union recognition. And that marked the start of a pretty tense relationship with Bertie O 'Hare and the Taoiseach, with O 'Leary later saying, I'm disrespectful of authority.

26:52No kidding. So by 1999, O 'Leary decided Ryanair finally needed a website. So yes, if you've been following the story until now, they're selling tickets the old-fashioned way without a website. Hard to imagine that time now, and yet it's certainly in my lifetime. Well, Michael O 'Leary decided Ryanair needed a website. Now, he held off for a few years until he felt the software to issue these paperless tickets was reliable. So no more tickets in the post. But now he wanted a website quickly and cheaply, the O 'Leary way. The first quotes from developers came in at three million pounds, which O 'Leary instantly dismissed.

27:25And then... Probably threw the person out of the room if they were in there. So three million, you've got to be joking. With a few swear words. And then Ryanair's HR director remembered two interns who worked last summer at his old computing company and rung them up. Yes, the then 17-year-old John Beckett took the call on his mobile while sitting in a classroom at secondary school. Beckett and his 22-year-old business partner and dentistry student managed to get the next day off school, university respectively, and met O 'Leary at his offices. Beckett listened to O 'Leary explain what he wanted, a simple website to be completed in a month, and gave O 'Leary a quote for£17 ,500 off the top of his head.

28:03O 'Leary bartered him down to£15 ,000 and Beckett agreed. Remember this is a website for a major airline. Beckett said they appreciated this kid coming in in jeans and a t-shirt. That was very much in keeping with the Ryanair ethos at the time. £15 ,000 for a major airline website. I'd say that's a pretty good deal. I mean, I would say that John Beckett should have priced himself a little bit higher than that. Ryanair's management believed internet sales would only be a tiny part of its business. so they didn't even put contact details on the first iteration of the website. So Becker and his partner, the web designers credited on the site, kept getting emails about delayed flights.

28:40Must have been very annoying for them. But just months after launching, O 'Leary saw how much traffic the site was getting and used the website to sell other products, such as travel insurance, car hire and hotel rooms. And within a year, the website was handling three quarters of all their flight bookings. I think the rise of people buying everything on the internet moved much faster than people thought. I think a lot of people thought in the mid to late 90s that people would struggle to put in credit card details, you know, payment details. There was still that kind of like, well, who am I sending these details to?

29:11But people got over it really quickly and it's almost unthinkable now. And the idea of you've got two kids in jeans and T-shirt designing this is a fabulous image to me. Anyway, in 2002, Ryanair wanted to expand its fleet of planes. and O 'Leary sparked a bidding war between arch rivals Airbus and Boeing for the contract for 100 new planes. This ultimately pushed Boeing into offering Ryanair a steeply discounted deal. According to Alan Ruddock's reporting, whose book was very helpful in the preparation of this episode, the list price of a new Boeing was$60 million but O 'Leary bartered them down to just over$28 million a plane.

29:49Not unusual for them to offer discounts on this because you often get the service contract to keep servicing them. That's quite lucrative, but that was a great deal. This aggressive negotiation saved the airline hundreds of millions, locked in low costs for customers for years. It was a classic O 'Leary move that reinforced their sort of ultra low cost model. These new planes helped Ryanair increase their routes across Europe, including holiday destinations in Spain and Italy they had previously avoided. and by the end of 2003 Ryanair had over 130 routes. Passenger figures had grown to 21 million.

30:23Most of those people had booked their tickets online. Then in 2003 Michael O 'Leary sold off some of his Ryanair shares raising roughly 17 million pounds. Part of the reason for that sale was to help pay for his wedding to Anita Farrell, a Dublin investment banker. The wedding reception took place in Giggins Town House. This is O 'Leary's Georgian mansion and 200 acre estate. He bought the property a decade earlier in 1993, just before becoming Ryanair CEO. The country house was in Mullinger, which was near his parents and had a farm attached. It was in bad shape when he bought it, but his wedding gave him the perfect opportunity to give it a makeover.

30:59So he built a swimming pool, a new extension, a courtyard. The reception was attended by around 300 guests and the wedding reception was estimated to have cost him nearly a million pounds. Happy news, the couple are still together today and they have four children. I wonder if he charged his guests add-ons for every can of pay and every sausage roll they wanted. Do you want towels in your room? That'll be an extra 50 quid. But by 2003, Ryanair was facing increasing competition from new low-budget airlines. We mentioned EasyJet. So EasyJet launched in 1994. Founder Stelius Hegewanu had also travelled to meet Herb from Southwest Airlines to learn the low-cost model.

31:35So Herb becoming a bit of a guru there. Yes, exactly. In the 1990s, the two airlines serviced different routes, but by early 2003, they were becoming more direct competitors. And the surge in online booking meant customers were better able to search for the cheapest deals available on all the airlines. So going online has its benefits for the companies, but it also has benefits for the consumer. Yeah, those price comparison websites actually really matter in things like airline flights, don't they? Yes, exactly. And soon Ryanair's shares were starting to slide. So O 'Leary, as usual, searched for new ways to cut costs, which included scrapping window shades on planes.

32:10That delays takeoff preparations as the staff open them or close them. Getting rid of magazine pockets, that thing in front of you, to reduce cleaning time in case anyone's left a mouldy sandwich or some tissues or anything. And only having non-reclining seats on new planes to save on repairs. I never realised it was to save on repairs. Me too. Just so you could cram more people in there, be less leg room. And actually, this is so funny because it really explains a lot of things that I've noticed about Ryanair planes when I've gotten on them and wondered to myself, like, why no window shades? Why can't we recline?

32:43And to outpace the competition, he didn't just cut costs. He dialed up the spectacle. We talked about him being a one-man PR machine. In 2003, Ryanair launched its rock-bottom fares campaign, had full newspaper ads featuring two naked backsides and£9.99 tickets. The Telegraph reported 30 ,000 people booked flights off the back of those adverts alone. Soon the stunts got even bolder. O 'Leary tried to row a World War II tank into Luton Airport, flanked by staffing combat fatigues to mock their rival EasyJet. Security shut it down, unsurprisingly, citing post-9-11 security protocols. By 2004, O 'Leary was dressing as the Pope to preach the gospel of low fares.

33:26Subtlety, as you can tell, was never part of the strategy. It was free publicity for Ryanair. At this point, I think I should remember my personal run-ins with him during this period. Yes, please. Because I was working on Breakfast TV. We'd often have him come on because it would be telling us where are the hot spots for people holiday, whatever, what's going on in the airline industry. Always very keen, being the BBC, that people shouldn't advertise their own whatever. He was more commenting on the industry rather than on Ryanair itself. Nevertheless, when you got him there, he would then say, we've got one million seats for£9.99, another two million seats.

34:01I had to sort of shut him down on air. And afterwards, I would say, listen, Michael, you really can't do that. This BBC can't really do that sort of stuff. He said, all right, got you. OK. The next time he came on, he came on and he was standing outside Stansted Airport and he had a T-shirt printed with all the latest deals of Ryanair on, knowing that we couldn't go off him because he was just standing there. He was the interviewee. So there he was, a walking billboard, a walking advertising hoarding for his own airline. At that point, you have to have a grudging respect for someone's naus and chutzpah.

34:33Yeah, you really have to hand it to him. I mean, short of asking for the shirt off his back, what could you do? And of course, at that time, you would often put to him the fact that although it was cheap, a lot of people thought the service was pretty bad. And he once said to me again, and I think he said this to a number of people. He said, oh, Simon, my flights are full of people who said they'd never fly Ryanair again. I'm taking people to Spain for a tenner. So he said people want to be cheap. But, you know, we'll see the evolution of that as time goes on. He reminds me quite a lot of one of our other billionaires, Richard Branson, where Branson became the Virgin Brand and in a similar way, Michael O 'Leary became Mr.

35:12Reiner. Yeah. And even on his personal commute, Michael O 'Leary pushed boundaries. This is a very big story at the time. In 2003, he paid€6 ,300 to register his own car, his Mercedes, as a taxi so he could legally use Dublin's bus lanes, because the taxis are allowed to go in the bus lanes, to skip traffic jams. And when asked about this loophole, O 'Leary told The Guardian newspaper, last time I checked, this was a democratic republic. As long as I pay my taxes, I'm free to do with my money what I like. Some people went, what a scoundrel. Other people went, fair play. Yeah, I think with behaviour like that, there's always a certain part of the population that will go, all right, I respect that.

35:52Anyway, with the company's pre-tax profits still falling by 14%, O 'Leary did voluntarily cut his bonus by 44 % to€127 ,000. euros. But by 2005, the cost cutting, the publicity stunts, they all finally paid off. Conditions that Ryanair had stabilised and Michael had amassed an estimated fortune of£280 million. Over the next few years, though, O 'Leary's cost cutting and publicity stunts got even more extreme. Yes. So some of you may recall that in 2009, he announced Ryanair was considering standing seat tickets, which were vertical seats akin to bar stools with seatbelts, of course, for£4. pounds.

36:30At the time, the BBC suggested Ryanair was announcing schemes that would never happen to use the press for publicity, but a Ryanair spokesman denied it. The same year, he also insisted Ryanair was serious about charging customers£1 to use onboard toilets. He suggested the pay-a-pound-to-spend-a-penny plan could rake in£15 million a year for the airline and lower ticket prices further. But I do not know how happy people would be about having to pay a pound to pee on a Ryanair plane. I think that these days he sort of admits that these were kind of just to get a rise and we all fell for it, you know, the media, everyone fell for it.

37:05But, you know, I wouldn't put it past him to sort of be serious about something like that. After facing profit warnings in 2013, Michael O 'Leary decided to rethink Ryanair's strategy. He admitted his intentionally acerbic public persona, which he compared to a cartoon pantomime villain, had alienated some customers who would have rather paid more to fly with his competitors. He said, we're probably moving from being what I would call errant teenagers into being somewhat more adult in the way we both interact with our customers and communicate with the outside world, he said of the plan. Yeah, because there was a feeling that Ryanair passengers sometimes thought they were being treated as cattle being herded on and off these planes.

37:43And at one point he thought that they wouldn't mind being treated like cattle as long as they were getting a very, very cheap deal but their approach to customer relations matured over time and this new strategy was dubbed always getting better it aimed improve services for passengers and increase capacity to contend with european competitors because remember the competitors were getting cheaper too the price point was becoming if you like less of a weapon against the rivals um but the following year ryanair was more than tripling its target for additional passengers it also slowly increased its fares, profits soon increased 66 % to£613 million.

38:21So clearly the new approach of always getting better worked. In 2015, Michael quipped that if he knew that treating passengers nicely would make his airline even more profitable, he'd have done it years ago. So that's relations with customers getting slightly better. What about workers? For years, Michael O 'Leary was famously resistant to unions. He once dismissed pilots as glorified bus drivers, even saying that hell would have to freeze over before he'd negotiate with trade unions. But by 2017, a wave of pilots were leaving for better pay, better conditions, benefits at rival airlines. And it left Ryanair having to cancel thousands of flights, which put the remaining pilots in a pretty strong position to negotiate management's recognition of their union.

39:03And in order to stave off strikes around Christmas 2017 and losses, of course, to short-term revenue, the company did accept unionisation. But meanwhile, 2017 was a bit of a landmark year for Michael personally. He officially became a Euro billionaire, thanks mostly to his Ryanair shares and smart property investments. He owned several high value properties, including estates in Ireland, luxury homes in Dublin, plus commercial office buildings across the UK. And beyond aviation, he'd also built another lucrative business, breeding and racing thoroughbred horses, through his Giggins Town House Stud, which had won prestigious titles like the two Cheltenham Gold Cups and the British Grand National.

39:41These are massive horse racing competitions in the UK. And in 2018, after winning the€600 ,000 Grand National Prize, he even celebrated with passengers on a Ryanair flight. He bought everyone a drink, but with a cheeky reminder, one drink only. Yeah, okay, that's one drink only. Interesting. He won't be the first very rich Irishman to spend quite a lot of their money on horse racing. There's a very strong connection there. By 2018, Forbes officially named him a self-made billionaire, estimating his fortune at$1.1 billion, Forbes reports in dollars, cementing his status in both euro, pounds and dollars.

40:19Much of that wealth remains tied to his significant stake in Ryanair, which continues to fuel his financial rise.

40:30So, yes, let's take him beyond a billion. In 2019, Michael O 'Leary secured a major new pay deal with Ryanair, which is an ambitious share option package worth up to€99 million if the airline hits tough profit or share price targets. To get this, he gave up previous incentive schemes. He agreed to slash his salary and bonus down to€500 ,000, playing the world's smallest violin here. Nearly half of Ryanair's shareholders opposed the deal, especially since the airline was already struggling with falling profits and looming strikes. But despite this backlash, O 'Leary's contract was extended. By May 2025, it was reported he could earn over€100 million.

41:09That would have been one of Europe's largest ever corporate paydays. After Ryanair's shares stayed above a certain level, that was€21 for 28 consecutive days. The catch, he's got to stay with the company for a further three years till July 2028 in order to collect that for the shares to so-called vest for him to own them fully. Critics say 100 million euros is excessive, no kidding, especially compared to what most Ryanair staff earn. But O 'Leary insists the pay reflects the value he's delivered to shareholders, even comparing himself to top football managers. We often have these things about whopping paydays and the shareholders have to vote on this.

41:49But the point is, for them to make this kind of money, the shareholders will have to get much richer too. So usually they mean that if the share price goes from X to Y, those shareholders will have made a boatload of cash as well. So we have to make him rich for us to get rich. Who cares? Elon Musk, classic case. Exactly. So in 2023, Michael O 'Leary flew to Belgium to deliver a petition to EU chief Ursula von der Leyen about ongoing air traffic controller strikes hurting his airline. and it was there that he found himself cream-pied by a group of climate activists. O 'Leary, however, didn't miss a beat.

42:23He cracked jokes and told reporters he loves cream cakes and they're actually his favourite. And that response perfectly captures his long-held belief that even bad press can be good for business. And with Michael O 'Leary, the show always goes on. Sure does. But now let us judge him on a bunch of different categories. We're going to look at things like wealth, philanthropy, controversy and have a look at his legacy. And we're going to score him between 0 and 10. We'll both take a view on that. And then we'll throw the final question of whether he's a good, bad billionaire to you. So let us start then with wealth.

42:59And often we look at the kind of rags to riches, you know, do they come from a desperately poor background to their incredible wealth? And he doesn't qualify on that score, does he? No. So both on his mother's side and his father's side, prosperous farming families, you know, Obviously, he attended what people call the Eton of Ireland. I mean, in his defence, he is, you know, one of six kids and he didn't use any family money to help set up Ryanair or become so successful. Yeah. What I think is interesting is that he managed to parlay just his technical and operational skill or ruthlessness into a stake.

43:34So he was a self-made man in the sense that he's developed a large stake in a very large airline without any kind of family money or the dowry or an inheritance. Yeah, and he does know how to spend it as well, which is another point in his favour on the wealth category. You know, he's bought his sprawling country estate. He spent a million on the wedding reception. Yeah, for someone so focused on cost minimisation, it's quite a contradiction there. Well, you know, maybe he just loves a big country estate wedding. Who doesn't? So in terms of overall wealth, in billionaire terms, he's entry level.

44:08Exactly. Compared to some of our people. So I don't think he scores very highly in billionaire stakes in wealth. And neither in a kind of astonishing rags to riches story. So I'm going to score him pretty low. I'm going to give him a two. Oh, that is low. I was going to say maybe give him a three or four. Well, because of his country estates and his racehorses. All right, you've talked me up to a three. Oh, you're too easily talked up. Okay, well, I'm going to go slightly higher on to a four. So four from me, three from you. What about philanthropy? Well, it's getting difficult, this, because lots of billionaires don't often publicise charitable donations.

44:44That's either because they don't want to trade on their great philanthropy and be seeing what a nice person I am, or they're just not doing it at all. When they are reported, they tend to be direct amounts for O 'Leary. The local charities thinks he's interested in, And these include 200 ,000 euros to a jockey's medical fund after a jockey was paralysed after a fall. There's 100 ,000 he won from his racehorses to a Belfast youth charity. 200 grand to help a reforestation project after wildfires in the Algarve. I mean, all admirable in their own way. We just don't know is the point on this one.

45:21So I think, you know, for me, because we don't know that, you know, the ones we do know about don't add up to much compared to, you know, hundreds of over a billion. So I'm going to give him I'm going to give him a three question mark. Yeah, I think I'll just give him a two out of 10 for this. What about controversy? No shortage of things to talk about here, though. No, exactly. He's got a long and storied history of accusations of offending people. So, you know, in 2020, take for instance, there was an interview with The Times. He said that Muslim men should be profiled at airports because, in his words, that is where the threat is coming from.

45:55The Muslim Council of Britain said Mr O 'Leary's comments were racist and discriminatory. Ryanair later claimed Mollieri was only calling for more effective airport security checks. But, you know, the list of alleged offences only goes on. In 2012, he described passengers who forgot to print their boarding passes as, in his words, idiots. He was trying to explain he hadn't actually insulted a customer complaining about a fee for not printing off her boarding pass. He said, I was not calling her stupid, but all those passengers are stupid who think we will change our policies or our fees. So that is, I would say, a non-apology.

46:29Yeah, we should mention the environment because obviously the proliferation of low cost airlines, the so-called democratisation of air travel, meant lots of people getting on planes and that has an environmental impact. Comments he made about Ryanair's environmental impact were the subject, in fact, of a BBC Newsnight investigation in 2007, which found that O 'Leary falsely stated that Ryanair had cut emissions of carbon dioxide by half over five years. After initially threatening legal action against the programme, O 'Leary admitted he had made an error. And of course, there is the controversy around O 'Leary's pay, which we alluded to previously in the episode.

47:05You know, he's faced a lot of criticism for those lucrative payouts. And this is quite the statement. In 2024, he said he wouldn't be putting up with any of that mewling nonsense from city types that would be railing against excessive executive pay. And this is really interesting because he cites the amount that footballers are paid as an example of what he perceives to be this double standard when it comes to his payouts. He said footballers are getting half a million a week, yet some guy running a serious business employing 20 ,000 plus people gets paid five or 10 million pounds and it's suddenly excessive.

47:38Yeah, there does seem to be a double standard on that. There's also the issue of Ryanair customer service. Ryanair has often in the past been ranked last in the which annual survey of UK brand customer service. Respondents called the airline greedy, sneaky and arrogant. I would refer you to the comment he made to me saying, my planes are full of people who say they'd never fly Ryanair again. They come crawling back. They were also fined for the years over by customer service, including in 2014 for mis-selling travel insurance, in 2015 for their premium rate customer phone line, and by the Spanish government in 2023 for abusive practices, including charging for hand luggage.

48:16So a long and storied list of controversies spanning the gamut from environmental to offence to obscene pay packages. You know for a fact that the higher score we give him on controversy, the more he would actually like it. So you're revising your figure down? I don't know if I'm revising it down or up. The thing is, he's used his own personality to great effect to create the size of this airline and his own personal wealth. So for him, I think controversy has been an asset rather than a liability, if he would consider it. So for better or worse, I'm going to give him an eight. I think an eight is about right, given the fact that he seems to revel in it almost.

48:57He hasn't killed anyone, you know, hasn't done anything illegal. He's not one of our drug dealers or one of our arms traders. So, yeah, I'll give him an eight. And that's pretty high for the kind of what I would consider consistent low level controversy. Now, what about power and legacy? How has Ryanair and Michael O 'Leary changed the face of the aviation landscape? Well, he is one of the pioneers of low-cost budget airline travel. And as we know from our own story that we've just been telling here, he didn't invent that idea. Nevertheless, Ryanair is now the biggest airline in Europe. And, you know, there is no doubt that, you know, putting people on planes for 10 quid did make massive change.

49:41And he brought the overall level of cost down across the industry. So, you know, I just don't think you can really overemphasize what a big figure he is in this. So, you know, I'd score him highly on legacy. Yeah, I mean, there's a whole string of European holiday destinations that probably didn't exist in the 80s or the early 90s before Ryanair started flying out to them. I mean, they probably maybe would have been served by other low cost airlines when those started up like EasyJet. But Ryanair was really the airline that pioneered travel and it probably boosted those places economies too. Yeah.

50:15And what's interesting is when we've been through recessions over the last 20 years now, you always think the one thing that's going to go is foreign travel. That would be a discretionary thing. That is one of the last things people give up. They've gotten used to it. It is something they consider almost like a kind of, you know, a right to go on a foreign holiday, which definitely wasn't the case 20 or 30 years ago. But, you know, obviously environmental impact, more flying means more emissions. So for better and worse, I think he has really, you know, changed the airline industry for good and bad.

50:45I mean, I would score him really highly on this, actually. I would say Paranlex, I'm going to give him a massive one. I'm going to say I'm going to give him a nine. I think a nine out of 10 is exactly right. OK. And then final reflections. I mean, I have to say that he's spiky, he's controversial, he's foul mouth sometimes. But you always feel that he honestly believes that he's providing the lowest possible cost to travel to the most number of people. Now, some people will say, as we just discussed, that might not be optimal in all circumstances. But I met him a few times. Kind of hard not to be slightly charmed by his abrasive attitude.

51:22In many ways, he kind of reminds me of Simon Cowell, the infamously mean X Factor judge. You know, it's playing a persona. People love to hate on Ryanair. They love to hate on Simon Cowell. They love to hate on Michael O 'Leary. It's all part of the brand. Yeah. Well, is he good, bad or just another billionaire? We'd like to know what you think. Please email goodbadbillionaire, that's all one word, goodbadbillionaire at bbc.com or drop us a text or WhatsApp to 001 917 686 1176. Tell us what you think. That's goodbadbillionaire at bbc.com or 001 917 686 1176. And don't forget to include your name as we may read out your message on a future episode.

52:07We've had some feedback in from some of our listeners. This message came from Geronima, originally from Barcelona, but currently living in New York. She says, first, let me say I love your podcast. Thanks, Geronima. I love the Dead Billionaire miniseries. I think Hattie Green was another billionaire, neither good or bad, a product of her childhood and the times. And if she'd been a man, she would have been another Rockefeller or Vanderbilt. I think that is a good guess. Yeah, I think she would have. I cannot wait for the next episode. Thanks for that, Geronimo. So who do we have on the next episode?

52:39We have a man of steel, quite literally. Lakshmi Mittal, the head of one of the world's biggest steel companies, was the biggest steel company for many years and helped reshape an entire industry. Yeah, at his peak in 2008, he was worth$45 billion and he was the richest man in Europe. Good Bad Billionaire is a BBC World Service podcast produced by Tamsin Curry. The researcher is Maria Noyan. The editor is Paul Smith and it's a BBC Studios audio production. For the BBC World Service, the commissioning editor is John Manel.

53:22for, trust Indeed Sponsored Jobs. With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, your post stands out to quality candidates who actually fit the role. According to Indeed data, 90 % are more likely to be hired and trusted by 1.6 million companies. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. Now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit to help your job get the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast 13. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast 13 right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast.

54:01Indeed.com slash podcast 13. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the right way with Indeed.