Viktor Bout: Merchant of death

17 Oct 2023 · 36 min

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Podcast Episode Summary: Good Bad Billionaire - Viktor Bout: Merchant of Death

Podcast Overview Title: Good Bad Billionaire Hosts: Simon Jack and Zing Tsjeng Theme: Analyzing the lives of billionaires, exploring how they made their fortunes and evaluating their impact on society.

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Episode Title

Viktor Bout: Merchant of Death Description: This episode delves into the life of Viktor Bout, a notorious arms dealer labeled the "Merchant of Death." The hosts unravel Bout's journey from obscurity to billionaire status through the international arms trade.

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Key Points Discussed

Introduction to Viktor Bout

  • Background: Viktor Bout's origins are unclear, but he is believed to have been born in Tajikistan in 1967.
  • Early Life: He grew up in a modest family; his mother was a bookkeeper, and his father was a mechanic. Bout showed early talents as a linguist.
  • Military Experience: Conscription into the Soviet army exposed him to military logistics, which later became instrumental in his arms trading career.

Rise to Wealth

  • Post-Soviet Opportunities: The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 led to a chaotic environment where Bout capitalized on abandoned military assets.
  • Business Ventures:
  • Started as a legit cargo business, later pivoted to arms dealing.
  • Established a network utilizing former military resources to transport arms globally.

Arms Dealing Career

  • First Major Deal: At 28, Bout made his first arms deal by connecting with an Afghan commander needing weapons against the Taliban.
  • Techniques:
  • Developed a reputation for forging end user certificates to disguise the true recipients of arms.
  • Maintained a network of companies to obfuscate his operations.
  • Notorious Reputation: Known for supplying both sides in conflicts, including in Angola and Sierra Leone, leading to enormous death tolls.

International Pursuit and Arrest

  • Increased Scrutiny: Post-9/11, global focus on arms trafficking intensified, making Bout a target for law enforcement.
  • Arrest: Captured in a 2008 sting operation in Thailand while attempting to sell weapons to undercover DEA agents. He was sentenced to 25 years in a U.S. prison.

Release and Aftermath

  • Prisoner Swap: In 2022, Bout was exchanged for American basketball player Brittney Griner, highlighting the complexities of international diplomacy.
  • Current Status: Post-release, Bout has reportedly aligned himself with pro-Putin political factions in Russia.

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Judging Viktor Bout

Wealth

  • Current Status: Estimated wealth fluctuates; at arrest, Bout was valued at around $6 billion.
  • Rating: 4 question marks due to the speculative nature of his wealth.

Rags to Riches

  • Journey: From humble beginnings to becoming a key player in the arms trade.
  • Rating: 8 for transformation from obscurity to notoriety.

Villainy

  • Impact: Responsible for countless deaths through arms sales to warlords and dictators.
  • Rating: 11 for extreme villainy, considered the worst among billionaires featured.

Philanthropy

  • Analysis: Bout's claimed charitable actions are overshadowed by his heinous activities.
  • Rating: 0 due to the contradiction between his actions and any philanthropic claims.

Power

  • Influence: Maintained connections with global power players and rogue states.
  • Rating: 8 for substantial clout in the arms trade.

Legacy

  • Consequences: Left a devastating impact on global conflicts.
  • Rating: 8 for the significant, albeit negative, legacy of destruction and chaos.

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Conclusion Overall Judgment: Viktor Bout is not just another billionaire but a prime example of how wealth can be derived from morally reprehensible actions. The hosts conclude with a definitive two thumbs down, categorizing him as a bad man within the context of the series.

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Next Episode Preview The next episode will shift focus to Bernard Arnault, the owner of LVMH, exploring another billionaire's life and impact.

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Contact Information Listeners are encouraged to provide feedback via email at goodbadbillionaire@bbc.com or through text/WhatsApp at +1 (917) 686-1176. More information about the show is available at [BBC World Service - Good Bad Billionaire](www.bbcworldservice.com/goodbadbillionaire).

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This summary provides a comprehensive look at the episode's content, key themes, and discussions surrounding Viktor Bout's controversial life and actions.

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Transcript

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0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hey Ryan, that was a fast trip. It was like you teleported. Yeah, just got in. I'll get all my expenses logged, I promise. Oh no, you're okay. SAP Concur uses advanced AI, so your expense report will practically write itself. Quite the breakthrough. It's like we've been teleported into the future. Alright. So, just curious, would you give us written permission to convert your matter into energy patterns and reassemble you at, say, random travel destinations? Margaret, are you building a teleporter? No. Yes. SAP Concur helps your business move forward faster.

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1:01You stream the best of British TV with Britbox. Watch with a free trial today.

1:09BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

1:20This is Good Bad Billionaire. I'm Simon Jack. And I'm Zing Zing. Each episode we pick a billionaire, find out how they got so incredibly rich, and then we judge them. Are they good, bad or just another billionaire?

1:37And this week we have, this is a murky one in many ways, morally murky. Murky on detail. We don't even know for sure where this guy was born. Yeah, he's kind of a man of mystery who has also at times been called the merchant of death. Sanctions buster, lord of war, merchant of death. Played by Nicolas Cage in a very shoddy sort of biopic. His fortune when he was arrested, a story we'll get to in due course, he was worth$6 billion. And he even has a villain's moustache to match. It looks like a cross between Freddie Mercury and Tom Selleck. And he is called Victor Boot, arms dealer, I was going to say to the stars, but in fact arms dealer to just about anyone.

2:20Including some very unsavoury characters, warlords, dictators, terrorists apparently. If he was doing this as a regular businessman and he wasn't selling arms, some people say he would be considered one of the great businessmen ever. I think actually one US official even called him the Bill Gates of arms trafficking. Or even another comparison I heard, he was the McDonald's of arms traffickers. He also claims he can read in 16 languages and speak five or six fluently. In many ways, he's the kind of person you want to be your friend. He can get you anything, anytime, anywhere. At any price. And it's that price which, of course, made him a billionaire.

2:58And as we've discussed before, Zing, the thing about billionaires, very few people get very rich without giving us something we either want, value or need. And in some cases, that includes weapons. And we're talking really high-grade weapons, AK-47s, military helicopters, surface-to-air missiles. Victor Boot did it all. and the number of deaths that he's implicated in or may have directly caused, it's uncountable. I mean, it's impossible to know how many people died at the hands of weaponry that he supplied to anybody. It's a difficult one, this, because we like to have a kind of lighthearted canter through people's lives.

3:35This one's a tough one. It's murky both on its morality. It's murky in its detail. It's deadly in its consequences. But let's have a look through his life.

3:47so let's start at the beginning and this is actually more difficult than most episodes because as we already said we're not exactly sure where he was born but we think it was in Tajikistan yes so he has a Russian passport that says he was born in Tajikistan in 1967 which was then part of the Soviet Union but one said that he was born in Turkmenistan African intelligence lists him as someone who's Ukrainian. I mean... Yeah, that's the kind of multiple identities I suppose you need in this particular line of work. Although he doesn't like to be in the limelight, he does actually give his own version of his own story.

4:24Maybe a selective telling, but he has spoken to the New York Times, for example. And his friends and associates have spoken to documentary filmmakers. But of course, a lot of what we do know of the more unsavoury stuff, which he denies, is from international sources like the UN, Interpol, the CIA and MI6 and independent investigators. What's interesting about Victor's life is that it also takes place against this huge sweep of world history, right? The USSR and then the crumbling of the Soviet Union. So this does really read like a bit of a spy thriller with some chilling results at the end, but some fascinating facts along the way.

5:00What we do know about his childhood is that he was born to a bookkeeper mother and his dad was a car mechanic. He had an older brother called Sergei who eventually went into business with him and described him as a guy who was always full of ideas, always the centre of attention. He was a polyglot, a really talented linguist, spoke loads of languages, including Esperanto and learned English from odd sources. Mainly listening to ABBA and Chicago records. I'm trying to think of all the ABBA and Chicago records. Being Without You, It's a Hard Habit to Break. That was a big Chicago hit. Anyway, of little use conducting an arms deal, one would have thought.

5:38Apart from the winner takes it all, maybe. And of course, the famous song Money. Money, money, money. So in school, it sounds like a normal kid. He was playing volleyball. He travelled around the Soviet Union to compete in that. But like many teenagers, he quit when he got interested in girls. And at age 18, he was conscripted into the Soviet army, spending two years with an infantry brigade in Western Ukraine. and then spent some time with the Soviet Military Institute of Foreign Languages, which proved to be quite an important part of his story. Because the Institute has been described as kind of a breeding ground for Soviet intelligence officers.

6:15It also is the place where he learned to speak so many different languages, which apparently includes ones like Portuguese, French, Farsi, Zulu. Very useful for an international businessman, especially if you're trying to sell arms to people all over the world. Yeah, and former CIA officers claimed he worked for the Soviet Foreign Military Intelligent Directorate, or the GRU as it's commonly known. For those who are listening and can't quite place what the GRU is, you can think of it as a kind of Soviet version of the Defence Intelligence Agency in the US. And most famously, they were implicated during the Salisbury poisoning in 2018, which of course is when a former Russian intelligence officer got poisoned with Novichok.

6:57Yeah, I don't think he's ever going to sue us, but we might be looking over our shoulders for the rest of our lives. Well, I would caution people not to pick up any cigarettes they find in the street. So when the USSR was still going, he was leaving the Institute for Languages and was working as a lieutenant in the aviation regiment as a translator. And it's at the Soviet embassy he meets Allah. She then leaves her husband and then marries him in Moscow and describes him as a very active, energetic person. And, you know, he kind of drags you in. I was actually really interested to hear what a former business associate who got burned by boot.

7:33She said he doesn't come off as a crook. He could charm you in seven or eight languages. And this is a guy who's, you know, in his 20s. And then the Soviet Union collapses in 1991. And that set off a string of events where former state owned assets ended up in private hands. They were kind of, some would say, stolen from the state, from the people. They've described what happened after that as a kleptocracy, a sort of society based on thieves, which created a lot of billionaires. I mean, there'll be other ones on our list. In a way, there was this kind of gold rush or land grab for these assets, incredibly valuable assets, because Russia had a lot of very valuable things, steel, coal, you name it.

8:15But they also, of course, were a massive military superpower. So there was a lot of military kit which was lying around, which no one quite had tabs on in the chaos that ensued after the collapse of the Soviet Union. That's where he steps in. And it isn't just, you know, military kit that's been left lying around when the Soviet Union collapses. It's also aeroplanes. So the entire Russian air fleet is kind of just lying around, open for the taking. There's also thousands of pilots and crew members who are suddenly jobless. And he steps into that void and starts importing goods into Russia. So he starts out as a legit cargo business.

8:51In a sense, actually, he was just a courier in many ways. And it wasn't military in the first instance. It was all manner of things that people wanted. He just had the delivery mechanism by buying all these wheezing old Soviet aircraft. The one thing that people do say is that it's quite unusual for a 25-year-old to buy three cargo aircraft for$120 ,000. just magic out of thin air in order to start a business. And it's why there's a theory from some former associate of his that the GRU was the one who gave him the aeroplanes to set up the business. Which suggests they think he might be useful in some way in the future.

9:26But there was a quote from him at the time saying, you know, you talk about$120 ,000. He said it was never difficult finding money. There was a lot of money floating around at that time and it was a pretty lawless environment. Having bought his first aeroplanes at 25, He then moves to the United Arab Emirates where he said there was practically no law at all. So it was a lawless environment in which he thrived. Conveniently, it was also home to many newly rich Russians who had started accumulating all this money in the collapse of the Soviet Union. And they were flocking to places like Dubai to shop duty free.

10:01Thanks to a billionaire we talked about in a previous episode, Chuck Feeney, the founder of DFS. And Victor was flying all of that duty-free goods back to Russia for a premium. And then around this time, he actually gets a bit more organised. He sets up an air freight business called Aircess with this small fleet of Russian planes that he's acquired. And his brother, Sergei, joins the business at this point. And he claims that at the time it was mostly consumer goods, textiles, computers, TVs, boomboxes, all the decadent items of the West that people in Russia were denied for so long. That's right.

10:35This would have been the same time that McDonald's were opening in Red Square and there was this sudden appetite and this sudden ability for people who'd been behind the Iron Curtain for a long time to get some of the Western goods that they hadn't been able to get their hands on before. And Boot was very busy with work. He actually missed the birth of his daughter. His wife says that at the time she couldn't remember the meaning of the word weekend. And it becomes a leading air freight company. SS owns almost 30 aircraft. It employs 300 people. And in a documentary, Victor claims that by 1997, at 25, I was a millionaire.

11:12By 30, I had an empire. OK, so we do this in stages. We go from zero to a million. And he very helpfully tells us himself that by 25, he was a millionaire.

11:26So he's going to have to really amp up SS in order to make that first billion. And he does it in a way that a lot of people will find deeply unsavoury. So at the age of 28, Victor Booth makes his first arms deal. Yeah, and I suppose we should say that, you know, arms dealing is not the preserve of murky criminals. It is something that other countries do. I mean, the US is an arms dealer. The UK is an arms dealer. France is an arms dealer. We all have big companies, Thales in France, BAE here in the UK. You've got Hughes Electronics. Boeing have a military division. War is big business. And in fact, that's one of the reasons people often used to refer in my world as the business editor, I remember this, as the military industrial complex.

12:15It's big business. Because it is an industry in and of itself. Yeah. And, you know, that's why sometimes they say war is good for GDP. You produce quite a lot of stuff. If you go way back in Russia's history, for example, a lot of people say that the productivity and the economy of Russia grew fantastically quickly during Stalin because he militarized Russia in the aftermath of the Second World War. So wherever you go in the world, military and war is big business and often accelerates economies. But obviously there are massive downsides to it as well. And it also means that if you're making all this machinery, you need people to transport it, right?

12:55Right, exactly. I mean, you've got to get them to the right people. Well, I say the right people, probably you've got to get it to the people who need it. And those are often the wrong people. And that was his incredible skill and gift. At this time, you know, in the mid 90s, he's a logistics and a transport guy. He's like Deliveroo, basically. He'll get you whatever you want. And it's that time that basically he inspired an opportunity in the weapons market. So two people came in, which became important to establishing his reputation as the world's most notorious arms dealer. And Victor Boot, before this point, you know, has only really moved non-interesting, if you want to put it that way, cargo, flowers, food, TVs, boom boxes.

13:37but he gets an unusual customer. A guy called Ahmad Shah Massoud who is an Afghan military commander comes to him and says hey we need guns to defend ourselves against the Taliban but Victor Boot doesn't actually have these guns. Okay so the ultimate fixer needs a fixer and at that point he now needs a weapons guy. Fortunately someone had recently given the number of a guy called Peter Merchef, a Bulgarian arms broker. And they meet up in Sofia in Bulgaria and he said of Victor you know The guy's a fast learner and he's very easy with the contacts. He can reach the right people at any time. So that network that he built in the wake of the Soviet Union, shipping things like computers and boom boxes and gladiolies, that came in very useful when it came to transporting things like 500 AK-47s, for instance.

14:26He's like a combination between sort of Del Boy and like the ultimate international fixer. He can open doors. Sounds like he's a charming salesman. Exactly. And, you know, I guess the time spent in the Institute of Language has helped as well, because if you can speak to someone in their own native language, God knows that's going to give you a business advantage. Yeah. But the problem is, is that there are rules around when it comes to arms, which he's now moving into, where there are people who are allowed to buy weapons and arms and people who aren't. And this is where he becomes very proficient at, he does two things really, has a whole network of different companies and no one quite knows who's involved.

15:06And also he becomes expert at forging these things called end user certificates. This proves to be really, really important. Right. And they are basically these kind of certificates that say I can buy these arms from a certain seller. If you want to have a legitimate transaction, you require this end user certificate. But what Boot was doing was he was just straight up forging these ones. Yeah, one country would be allowed to buy them like a Zaire, for example, might be on the list of saying that's OK. But another country like the Democratic Republic of Congo might be not on the list in that he would do the old switcheroo and the arms that were supposed to be going to country A ended up with country or dictator B.

15:46And he was also very proficient at making sure his planes were difficult to trace. I think one of the things that I found out about him was that he was painting over the tail numbers of his planes. So in his ground crews did it so often that they ended up using water-based emulsion to make it easier to paint over. That's incredible. So basically we're saying we're going to have to do this so many times. We don't want the paint layer on the tail fin to be too thick. That might even interfere with the aerodynamics of the plane itself. I mean, he was, people have said that, you know, if he was in any other business, he would be lauded as a entrepreneurial business person who could pivot in many different ways.

16:26It's kind of odd, isn't it, where the same traits where the same traits that would make you enormously successful in a legitimate business are the ones that also make you enormously successful in businesses that end up killing thousands of people. Well, what we did learn is he wasn't very choosy about his customers and sometimes would be backing both sides in a single conflict. I mean, he sold to basically everyone and anyone. So, for instance, in Angola, he was selling to both the rebel and the government troops. And the thing that really surprised me is lots of times people knew. So his clients knew that he was running guns to both sides of a conflict.

17:02But I guess that old, you know, saying you never shoot the postman applies here, right? If he's the only one who can get you the military helicopter you want, you're probably going to turn a blind eye to him supplying the same military helicopter to your enemy. Yeah. And also for him, it works out brilliantly because both sides know they're in a bidding war against the other side. And he's the middleman. And basically, they're going to up the ante on both sides. He can't lose. In many ways, he's created this perfect environment where he has the monopoly. So his business is thriving. He's expanding his air freight operations.

17:33He's got kind of nodes in his network in South Africa, Ostend, Belgium, Odessa, Ukraine. His fleet is crisscrossing Africa and is getting involved in some seriously gruesome conflicts in Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Liberia, the Congo, Angola. You know, in these deals, he's sometimes not even paid in cash. One thing I read is that the dictator Charles Taylor actually paid him in diamonds. Yeah. So at one point, Victor Boot was hiring a gemologist to accompany him on all these deals to make sure he was getting his money's worth. Or to look through the little, what do they call it, a loop to look at the diamonds?

18:08I just call it the little magnifying glass in film. The little magnifying glass, yeah. And, you know, these are really gruesome conflicts and we shouldn't lose sight of that. You know, millions of people dying, injured, maimed, their amputations. I mean, I remember looking at the news towards the end of the 90s and into the noughties. What was going on in the DRC, Rwanda, etc., was really almost unbelievably horrific. And Victor Boot was at the centre of all of this. I mean, in a conflict like Angola, he was supplying something like 20 ,000 mortar bombs, 6 ,000 anti-tank rockets, 1 ,000 rocket launchers.

18:43You know, these are amounts of weaponry that went on to kill a whole lot of people. Yeah, between half a million and 800 ,000 people were killed, four million displaced, some of the estimates, 70 ,000 amputees as a result of landmines, which he may or may not have supplied. But he was in that business and didn't mind which side of the conflict he was supplying. And it made him really, really rich. I mean, I think there's one incident in 1997. He's kind of in his, I think he's 30 at this point. And he's paid$3 million for a mansion in Johannesburg with two swimming pools, waterfalls, a guest house, and 26 private security guards and 15 foot walls.

19:23So he's clearly rich and living it up, but he's got a target on his back. Yeah. And then came the incident that no one who watched it will ever forget, which was 9-11. That changed the weather on international travel, international terrorism. It defined a new era of particularly US involvement in international affairs. And it was also at this point where the US starts getting very interested in what they call transnational security threats, which you could easily classify someone like Victor Boot as one because he's flying all these planes and weapons to conflicts all over the world. And it's then that his fortunes start turning.

20:00Yeah, the microscope on all of these different kind of organisations becomes that much more intense. He's kind of been living in the shadows up to now. And now he sort of slightly comes out of the shadows, not willingly, but because of increased scrutiny by people like the CIA, Department of Homeland Security, other, the Five Eyes, Australia, New Zealand, US, UK, whatever, suddenly start thinking, where are these weapons coming from? Where are they going to and from? And that's when he, in a way, becomes, well, if not target number one, pretty close to it. He went on to say at that time that he woke up after 9-11 and found that he was considered second only to Osama in terms of national security threats.

20:43And journalists were calling him the biggest arms supplier to al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. Yeah, which is something that he's always questioned. He's always disputed whether he dealt with al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. He's never admitted that. Some of his defence goes along the lines of, I am just the postman. You know, I am just a person carrying the cargo. You can't possibly expect me to take responsibility for what any of the stuff does. It's not in my job description. That's always been his defence. And that's always been the defence of his brother, Sergei, as well. Yeah, that's a bit like the kind of guns don't kill people, people kill people.

21:19Exactly. Which is the NRA line on this one. Anyway, tension of Western governments definitely bearing down on him now. And in 2002, it's the Belgian government, which we know already he's got assets in Belgium through his Air Courier network. And the Belgian government issues an international arrest warrant. And that was for money laundering. It's interesting that it's for money laundering and not for any of the other stuff that he's apparently done. That's often the way. I think it was Al Capone who got done for mail fraud rather than sort of killing people. You know, you get someone on the technicality sometimes, and that still happens in the US to this day.

21:55You'll get people on things like wire fraud, mail fraud, which actually is, you know, code for something much more serious and much more, you know, but easier to prove. Right. That makes sense. And at this point, he's basically got a target on his back. he's gotten so well known this guy who was once so in the shadows that in 2005 there's a Nicolas Cage movie based on his life called Lord of War which comes out. At this point he's moved to Moscow. Listen we know he's on the radar of western governments and we know that he's considered to be a top 10 most wanted kind of person around the world so these governments cook up a sting.

22:35So six years after the Belgian government issues this international arrest warrant he gets apprehended in a sting in Bangkok. So DEA agents, and that stands for Drug Enforcement Agency, they pose as potential buyers from a guerrilla group called FARC. So in case you're not familiar with FARC... That's F-A-R-C for anyone who's listening, by the way. Just for anyone who thought that I said the bad word. They were engaged in a large-scale military operation against the Colombian government for decades. So these DEA agents are posing as guerrillas in Bangkok. A pretty credible run-of-the-mill customer for someone like Victor.

Read the full transcript

23:15Exactly. So his alarm bells weren't ringing, unfortunately for him, and he agrees to sell them. And this is a real shopping list. 800 surface-to-air missiles, 30 ,000 AK-47s, 10 million rounds of ammunition, five tonnes of C4 plastic explosives, and ultralight airplanes outfitted with grenade launchers and unmanned aerial vehicles. And it works. So they get him. Arrested in Bangkok, extradited back to the US, stands trial and sentenced to 25 years. 25 years at the age of 45 for conspiring to kill Americans and conspiring to provide material support to terrorists. And it's estimated, just so we're keeping tally on the wealth score, which is what we're doing in this series, at the point of his arrest in 2008, we think he was worth$6 billion.

24:05So he's a billionaire, but unfortunately he's also behind bars. Amazingly, he said, I have my principles. I did not do this just for money. Otherwise, I would be definitely way more richer, that's the quote, and I would not be in this position in jail. I mean, I have my principles. I didn't do this just for money. One wonders what these principles were. I know, because those principles seemed quite flexible at the time he was moving guns for literally anybody who asked.

24:44So there he is behind bars and looking at a 25-year stretch which would take him from the age of 45 to 70. But 10 years into that sentence, help is at hand from a very unexpected source for Victor. So you may have heard of the American women's basketball player Brittany Greiner. famously arrested in Russia for her prescription medical weed, which is, by the way, still illegal in Russia. And she's sentenced to prison. Obviously, this causes a huge diplomatic incident because nobody wants to see a WNBA player behind bars in Russia. So she's actually exchanged in a prisoner swap with Viktor Buk. It's an incredible swap, that, isn't it?

25:27So women's NBA player versus international arms dealer. Yeah, I mean, you can imagine a lot of very late night conversations between US officials wondering, should we give this guy up? Yeah, I mean, quite a tricky political decision to make because you could quite easily argue that someone who is a peddler of death and destruction around the world is a much higher profile, more impactful, releasee than a basketball player from the US. So that's quite a trade. It is. And, you know, obviously there are some rules to this trade. Victor Boot can't visit the US and he's banned from cashing in on his life with any book or movie deals.

26:11This is a guy who sells arms for a living. You know, oh, you're banning me from doing a book deal? I mean, it just seems absolutely nuts to me. And the real question is, even if he does have a book released, where are they, what are they going to do? Arrest him again? Arrest him again? Are they going to find him wherever he's living now? Apart from the AK-47s, the surface-to-air missiles, the landmines, the whatever you've sold, what you've mainly done is violate the book deal clause of our agreement. Yeah, I mean, when you put it that way, and he definitely isn't trying to keep a low profile now, right?

26:42I mean, a few days after he got released, he joins this ultra-nationalist party back in Russia. And it's famously also very loyal to Putin and far right. It's the home to some quite unsavoury characters, including this guy called Andrei Lugovoy. Lugovoy, yeah. Lugovoy, who is actually still wanted in the UK for the murder of Litvinenko. Yeah, he was the one who basically was identified as the person behind Litvinenko and being dosed with something called Polonium 210 in some Japanese restaurant not far from here, actually. But what's clear is that people who don't get on with Putin tend to end up dead pretty quick.

27:17Thankfully for Viktor Bout, that doesn't seem to be the case for him because he's clearly demonstrated quite a lot of loyalty to Putin. In fact, he's only recently in July been nominated to run for a seat in a legislative assembly as a member of this ultra right Putin loyalist political party. Yeah, it's going to be very interesting. I think we're not there yet to see the next chapter in this. And also, what is involvement? We don't really know about in the Ukraine war is it seems likely, doesn't it, that he was quite involved in the Wagner mercenary group, which has incredible influence in places like Africa, where, you know, there's been this kind of land grab for things like minerals and what have you.

27:59and there is some sympathy in what they call the Global South for Putin and the Wagner Group are very active. I'd be amazed if Viktor Bout hadn't been instrumental in supplying that mercenary force. In other words, I don't think we'll see the last of him. No, but we are where we are, so it is time for us to judge our billionaire. We'll start with the obvious one, which is wealth. And weirdly, he's not listed, well, perhaps not weirdly, he's not listed on the Forbes Rich List. given the fact we don't even know where he was born and what it really is. I think it's fair to say that any estimate would be pretty speculative.

28:36But he's up there. At the time of his arrest, don't forget, he was estimated to have about six billion. That would only make him about the 425th richest billionaire in the world. And I'm guessing, actually, that his wealth probably fluctuates pretty wildly. And also anyone who lives under the shadow or in the orbit of Vladimir Putin can lose all their money at any time. As that famous Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who was Russia's richest man, ended up in jail with nothing. So it's a pretty volatile number. So I'm going to give it four question marks. Four question marks. Well, I mean, I would actually put him as a two.

29:14A two. A two. Rags to riches. How far have they come from where they started to where they were at their zenith? I mean, if you believe the story about him being born to what a bookkeeper mother in the far reaches of the Soviet Union to, you know, at his height hanging out and hobnobbing with warlords and dictators. It is a Hollywood story. I can understand why, you know, Nicolas Cage wanted to play him. I would give him probably about an eight. I've got an image in my mind of where he was born. And it is outer reaches of some kind of deserted tundra somewhere. The dusty edge of the USSR. to do that and become the second most wanted person in the world after Osama bin Laden.

29:59It's not a wealth journey necessarily, but it's certainly a journey from obscurity to notoriety. So on that basis, I know it's meant to be rags to riches, but in terms of obscurity to notoriety, I'm going to give him an eight. He certainly became very notorious in his time, and I'm sure he'll be notorious for much longer. This next category should be pretty easy. We call it villainy. it's kind of like you know what do they do to get to the top how many people do they do over I would say he's in a pretty a category of almost one I mean I would give him an 11 for this am I allowed to give people an 11 I think when they make a movie out of you called Lord of War when the book about you is called Merchant of Death I mean if we cover someone more villainous than this that'll be news to me I would be very surprised I think he's probably the front runner in this category.

30:47And we should just take a moment to be serious about this. The real life consequences of this billionaire's business dealings are horrific. And we should take a slightly sombre moment to recognise that. And he had no qualms about hanging out with the people who ordered these things to happen. I mean, in one interview, I think Charles Taylor said that he considered Victor Boot his pepper bush, which is a kind of phrase for someone you keep very close to your heart. What? Pepper bush? Yeah. You always come out with these brilliant expressions, which I don't know. Hench was the last one I didn't understand.

31:19Peppabush. Yeah, I mean, maybe this is a Charles Taylorism. I'd not heard of it either. But Charles Taylor was the president of Liberia. Well, really the dictator. And he was convicted of war crimes at The Hague. He was actually the first head of state on charges of war crimes. So that's the kind of person that Victor Boot was hanging around with. Yeah, that's some company. For Villainy, honestly, he puts everyone else that we've covered so far in the shade. He leaves them in the dust. In true Spinal Tap style, this one goes up to 11. It's a definite 11 for me. Okay. Which then brings us to an interesting juxtaposition on philanthropy.

31:57Because you think that if you score 11 on Villainy, you're going to get a minus one on philanthropy, but not necessarily so. His business associates slash friends claim that he gives UNICEF money. I mean, obviously, I doubt UNICEF would like to go on record to confirm that. He's a vegetarian. He's an ecologist, we're told. He wants to save the rainforest. He wants to make documentaries about the Arctic Circle. For me, I'm going to really go back to base here. Philanthropy literally means the love of humans. And that has given scant regard in what he actually does for a living. So I don't care what he says about the rainforest.

32:35I'm giving him none. I agree with you. I mean, it's zero for me. Just because you throw UNICEF the occasional tenor doesn't make you a philanthropist. And it definitely does not erase anything that you've done to run guns to people who have been using them on their own people. Yeah, you can't greenwash stuff like that. So we have another category, which is power. Gosh, I mean, schools would be highly in this one, no? Yeah, in all the worst ways. I would actually give him an eight, you know, so powerful. But in terms of political power, he was definitely hanging out with people who were literal dictators.

33:09But when it comes to kind of changing their minds, swaying their decisions, making things happen, you know, he was very much a for sale kind of guy. Yeah, he's a hired gun, isn't he? He's a mercenary in the strictest sense. He's not actually calling the shots. He's an enabler rather than actor in these conflicts. And what would you give him? I mean, he's an important person. If you're a dictator and you want to launch a coup, then he is someone who can get you what you need in order to do something quite powerful and quite consequential. But I suppose one wonders, if Victor's not available, I'll get someone else.

33:45He is, in that sense, sort of expendable. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else stepping into the absence, right? Yeah, yeah. But I suppose there is something about the fact that all of these factors in time conspired to create this business opportunity for him, right? So he was right place, right time for all of the USSR, loads of empty airplanes, loads of military kit lying around unused, loads of airplane staff who can fly in challenging conditions. So really, I would say he's a product of his time. But I'm sure there would have been some kind of post-USSR entrepreneur who would have done exactly the same thing.

34:26Yeah, you just think that those piles of weapons, AK-47s, would have found their way to some unsavoury places with or without Victor. So maybe, I don't know, maybe he's only a five on power. It's a difficult one, isn't it? I would still give him an eight, I think, because he's got powerful friends. He's got powerful weapons. He's got a powerful distribution network. He speaks loads of languages. He knows all the right people. He could fit people together more easily than perhaps anyone else could have done. Exactly. And he did create an effective monopoly. OK, so you're giving him an eight and I'm giving him a five.

35:05So we differ on that one. We have this one about legacy. What is the legacy of an arms dealer? I mean... Death and destruction, basically. Hundreds of thousands of people dead, millions displaced, people maimed. And that's a horrible legacy. I mean, I guess, you know, the legacy he's left is an appalling one. does he leave a legacy as a kind of figure of what he represents when the next victor boot comes along we'll be saying oh he is the new victor boot right so in that sense he has a sense of legacy and you know it feels kind of wrong to give him a kind of high score on this because you know the legacies that i like to think of are legacies like you know we talked about chuck feeney who ended up giving away all of his duty-free fortune to charity you know he deserves a high score on this but if you're talking about someone like victor boot who leaves behind a huge legacy but it's one of wanton destruction and chaos i mean i would still have to give him probably an eight or nine yeah yeah you've got to look at the absolute impact rather than the moral dimension to it you know just you know it is what it is in terms in absolute terms it's horrible but it's powerful um which did you give him i give him an eight okay an eight okay i'm gonna give slightly less now give him a seven um so victor boot the merchant of death the lord of war good bad or just another billionaire he's not just another billionaire is he this is probably the easiest decision on this series that we will ever have to make so it is a bit two thumbs down um victor is a bad man join us on good bad billionaire next episode when we will be living in the lap of luxury.

36:46We'll be donning Dior and the finest luxury clothes. We'll be glugging champagne. We'll be talking about the wolf in Kashmir himself, the owner of LVMH. Bernard Arnault, who vies with Elon Musk on any given week to be the very richest person in the whole world. Thanks for listening to Good Bad Billionaire. This podcast is produced by Hannah Hufford and Mark Ward. James Cook is our editor and it's a BBC Audio production.

37:15Thank you.

From the publisher

Just who was the arms dealer prisoner swapped for US basketball star Brittney Griner? Viktor Bout was a man who built his empire selling arms to anyone who wanted them, and became a billionaire in the process.

BBC business editor Simon Jack and journalist Zing Tsjeng piece together a tale from the secretive world of the international arms trade. They follow Bout's story from Tajikistan to Moscow, the UAE, across Africa and into custody in the USA. Then they judge him for his deeds.

The podcast that uncovers how the world's wealthiest people made their money and asks if they are good or bad for the planet investigates a murky story of post-Soviet wealth built on the sale of death and destruction.

We’d love to hear your feedback. Email goodbadbillionaire@bbc.com or drop us a text or WhatsApp to +1 (917) 686-1176.

To find out more about the show and read our privacy notice, visit www.bbcworldservice.com/goodbadbillionaire

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