ADOLESCENCE CREATOR JACK THORNE on Golden Globes, Being an Outsider & the Dark Side of Social Media

0:00Coming up on Great Company. Just firstly with adolescence, congratulations. Dad, I haven't done anything! It's been entirely discombobulating. This is extraordinary. Thank you for this. We will treasure it. Got 141 million views. Took us all by surprise. It was the shock of our lives.

0:18You've created a show that's changed how people think about society and our children growing up in it. The thing about algorithms is as soon as you're watching the darker stuff, more darker stuff gets fed. And soon, that's all you're consuming. That's where I thought Jamie would go. What do you think we should be doing as a society to help kids like Jamie? Hi, I'm Jack Thorne and I'm in great company. Jack Thorne. Jack Thorne. The co-creator. The writer. Of adolescence. How do you change Harry Potter? How do you write Lord of the Fights? How do you make these adaptations? I've often written about best friends because I think I've always wanted one.

0:53I remember having this thought when I was 10 that I might never have any friends. and everyone was in relationships with each other and I was sort of outside it. I am autistic. I definitely think that does play a role. I don't think I really had a best friend until the age of 32. And then I married her. You mentioned that you got ill. What happened? So when I was in my final year of university, I had a sort of complete physical breakdown. I became allergic to sunlight, radiators, and finally I became allergic to body movement. For about 15 years, I was quite seriously disabled by it. Yeah, I did think at one point this was it, on my back for the rest of my life.

1:29Wow.

1:35Hello everyone, my name is Jamie Lang and this is Great Company.

1:42Hey guys, welcome back to Great Company. Today's episode I'm really excited about because we have Jack Thorne on the show. Now, some of you may know who Jack Thorne is, and others you may not know about Jack Thorne, but you'll definitely know about his work. Jack Thorne is the creator of the amazing hit TV show Adolescence, which just won a Golden Globe, which is incredible. Okay, Adolescence absolutely boomed on Netflix, went viral for all of the right reasons. It was a TV show about the dark side of social media and how it corrupts and warps and takes over young kids' minds at the moment. Jack came on and we spoke a lot about social media.

2:19We spoke a lot about how smartphones are damaging the younger generation and why young kids shouldn't have smartphones. We spoke about Harry Potter. He actually wrote and created Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, which is the massive West End production. He's an amazing guy. Been through a lot as well. He had a disease which meant that his body was allergic to heat. All of that is in the show, so get ready for it. Now, before we start, I just want to ask you one thing. okay one quick favor if you can please subscribe to our show if you enjoy it that is it keeps us making the show that you love keeps getting the guests that we like to get and keep making the show better and better each week if you can do that one thing i'll thank you so much okay here we go enjoy this episode of great company with the amazing jack thorne hi i'm jack thorne and i'm in great company just firstly with adolescents congratulations thank you very much I mean, one could argue it is perfect in lots of ways.

3:20Certainly not, but thank you. And the awards it's won and the acting from the writing is just brilliant in every way. And you must be over the moon. No, it's been really thrilling and entirely discombobulating. I did the Globe speech when we won Best Limited and looked up halfway through my speech and literally stopped talking because I made perfect eye contact with Leonardo DiCaprio. I mean like perfect eye contact and he was looking like directly at me and I was looking directly at him and it was just like I have absolutely nothing to say to you and if I've got nothing to say to you what do I have to say to the room uh how do I bring this back this is awful that side of it that you know I remember at the party afterwards an executive saying to me should I introduce George Clooney and just going no no no no no I think I've done that bit I'm gonna go and sit with my friends now and uh steven cope with all that stuff you know like you know he's just brilliant all that stuff whereas i was just kind of like you know i feel like i've emerged from my the hole it's very nice here i like all the flowers but i want to go back down the hole there's a there's a um there's a great quote which i'm going to completely murder from matt damon right i think it is of all people who um said that he is so happy that he won an oscar so early on because he realized that oh if he had been spending his whole life trying to make an oscar and then he'd never or he'd made it much later in life he would have been like well actually yeah does that really matter is that the same with winning or is actually pretty amazing when you get up on stage and you win a golden globe it's very nice and i do like all that stuff and it does make me feel better about myself in a way that's not you know based on any fact whatsoever you know like you know that there's nothing that's saying it's pretty great to get on stage yeah it's good feeling like you belong in a club which you've long admired is is very nice um but i can tell you that feeling of belonging in that club evaporates very very quickly so there's a brief moment when you're like oh yeah no these are my people and then you go oh no these are these aren't my people these are my people uh that you know and uh and yeah

5:41Firstly, I'm such a huge fan. That's nice. I don't know whether I believe it, but it's nice. I promise you, I'm a huge, weirdly huge movie buff. And just, for me, I kind of, my only distraction as a kid, right? I was this sort of ADHD kid running around the place. And the only time that I was able to be still was when something was put on the screen in front of me. Probably like a lot of kids, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. To this day, I remember I used to climb into my parents' bed at night. All the time, right? Because I was scared of the dark. Still weirdly kind of am. But I remember my parents put on the fridge, they put a chart, right?

6:13And they said, if you get a gold star every single night, that means I didn't go into their bed. On the Saturday, I could go and watch Free Willy. Do you remember the movie Free Willy? Yeah, it's a good film. Great film. And that for me, and I remember... And so you'd watch that every week? Every week. No, no, you'd fail most weeks. But last week, I actually finally made it. I didn't get into my parents' bed. But I remember getting the gold stars and going to watch Free Willy. And I remember sitting in the cinema and it was the first time I remember going to the cinema and watching a movie and being like, I couldn't believe it.

6:48That there was this thing and these characters playing out on screen. And it was just such a, and from that was the moment I fell in love with cinema. What was your moment when you fell in love? I've got Be Good on my wrist. My kid has scored Elliot. For me, it was E.T. So my version of Free Willy is E.T. Talk me through that. Where were you watching it? What happened? I think I was taken to E.T. for the first time by my Uncle John. My Uncle John was a paranoid schizophrenic. He was a guy that struggled a lot with life, but he really loved me. He loved kids. And I remember the moment when suddenly I reached the age where I was slightly too old for him because I think he didn't like it when people noticed that he was a bit different.

7:35And there's a moment as a kid, obviously, where you sort of start seeing the world a bit like other people see the world. And before that, he was just my brilliant, enchanting Uncle John. And then suddenly he was Uncle John's a bit different. But yes, he took me to the cinema a bit, I think. And I think he was the first person to take me to E.T. and when I was a kid because I'm a lot older than you films would stick around in the cinema so films would be on for years sometimes I was a kid like you films were my way of controlling life and I got very over emotional watching films I was taken out of the Jungle Book because I started screaming because I thought Blue was dead you remember there's a moment when Blue is floating down the river and it looks like Blue is dead when I thought Blue was dead I started screaming so I was taken out of the Jungle Book My dad then took me, I think quite soon afterwards, to Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

8:33Terrifying. Terrifying. Someone had their heart ripped out. It was like, I can't make it through the jungle, but Dad, why have you taken me to Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom? Jack. Yes. I went to my friend David Sykes' house, and I watched Indiana Jones, and I didn't sleep for weeks. No, no. It's terrifying when the heart is ripped out, and they're held up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's absolutely terrifying. It is. I was about four. Yeah, yeah. What is going on? Yeah. And I think it was a PG. I think it was a PG film. And I don't think it should have been a PG film. I think it should have been 18.

9:05What do you think it is about E.T. that made so many people connect with it? It's a perfect film. There's not anything wrong with that story. It's perfect. There's not a frame that's wrong. It's the best film about divorce ever made. It's the best coming of age film ever made. And it's the best film about aliens ever made. It's like, you know, to do all three of those things is just extraordinary. What other movies do you think are close to being perfect? E.T. I don't know that there's any other film that's, I think Jaws would come close. I think there's a few. Then you get into the sort of indie film realm where everything is a choice.

9:41Whereas I think there's something so interesting about E.T. that it was constructed to be a box office film and yet spoke of so many other things at the same time and just had so much within it. For me, when I watched Free Willy, right, the reason why it made me... Which is also a perfect film. Another perfect film, it is. And another perfect film, Home Abound, if you really want to get into it. Oh yeah, Home Abound is very good. It's unbelievable. When I watched Free Willy, for me, the reason why it resonated with me, because it was about this kind of cool kid who kind of broke the rules in a way, and it was about this friendship between sort of animals, and it was magical in lots of ways, and it made me feel that the world was like such an exciting place.

10:20Yeah. What did it, with E.T., make you feel about yourself? What did it resonate with you? I don't have many friends at the moment, but maybe there's an extraterrestrial that might like me. Did that happen? Did you find? Here, now, and exclusive. Yes, I made friends with an alien. But you didn't have friends growing up? Not friends like other people had friends, I think. I never really trusted the people that I was friends with. So it wasn't like I walked around on my own all the time. I was part of a group or I was included in some way, but I never felt like I was part of something. And I think I've often written about best friends and friendship because I think I've always wanted one.

11:03And I don't think I really had a best friend until the age of 32. And then I married her and I'm still married to her. Shit, that was very good. Wow, that's really. Yeah. But did you know growing up you were an outsider? children were quite naive, right? So our existence around us is just kind of like what we think it is. It's kind of good consciousness to understand certain things. Understanding that you're popular or cool is one thing. Understanding that maybe you're not fitting. It's quite a bit of self-awareness to realize that as a young kid. Yes. My son is nine. He's about to turn 10. I think he's going to be fine, actually.

11:44But I remember having this thought when I was 10, which is not I don't have any friends. It was the thought that I might never have any friends. You know, just that sort of sudden realization that the world, because I think boys, and it's so interesting watching a boy grow up and watching the girls in the playground versus the boys in the playground. The girls are so sophisticated so early. They're making sophisticated arrangements between themselves and the boys are just sort of standing around and working out how fast they can run into a concrete pole without hurting themselves you literally see this sort of two different groups form and i don't like to believe in gender difference but it's so there's something about the way that we nurture boys and girls that that allows girls to have this sort of relationship between themselves that's so interesting and so full of ideas and the boys are just like do you want to play yeah i want to play okay let's play and then there's a moment when suddenly realization kicks in and the world kicks in and and that avalanche that moment of avalanche for me was when I turned 10 and suddenly the world suddenly seemed clear and everyone was in relationships with each other and I was sort of outside it I am autistic and I definitely think that does play a role but I also think my own peculiar brain and my own nurturing and the way that I worked just made me like that.

13:07Yeah, it's when we eat the apple, right? It's like Adam eating the apple, but you suddenly gain the experience. Exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly. And for me, the apple was 10 years old. There's a great poem, which I've spoken about before, which is Blake. Blake talks about innocence and experience and how experience destroys innocence. Yes. And there's something amazing about innocence. That's why one of my heroes in life is Peter Pan. I've said this a million times, but Peter Pan is amazing because Peter Pan didn't want to grow up because he wanted to stay naive and young and he didn't want to be like Captain Hook, who was a tyrant, followed, you know, chased by time.

13:42Yes. It's kind of a beautiful thing, I think. But he's interesting, isn't he, Pan? Because he's also, you know, he's named after the god of mischief. There's an element of controlling the chaos around him, isn't there? Explain that to me more. What do you mean? His interactions with Wendy are ones of, come join the fun and then you have to stay in the fun. And The Lost Boys, similarly, you stay with me, you stay with me. This is what we choose to do. And I love the way he's written because he's not all innocence. He's actually a mixture of innocence and choice. So you think it's manipulation a little bit?

14:21Yes, but manipulation because he genuinely believes that's what everyone should do. He's not going, I need you all and so therefore you all must stay trapped with me. he's going, this is the way to have fun. This is the way to be. And I want you all to stay with me and stay glued to me. And I don't like it if you leave. You've just destroyed. No, no, no. The beautiful story of Peter Pan, this tattoo I have on my arm, this manipulating, horrific boy. No, no, no, no, no. He's wonderful. He's wonderful, but he's interesting. You know, that's what makes him so beautifully written. He's interesting.

14:58And he was the leader, right? Even though he was quite childlike, but he used his power. Yeah. He had a sense of power, which is the same in Lord of the Flies. Yes, yes, yes. Which is, by the way, I haven't, I wasn't going to bring this up, but Lord of the Flies was the first play I did at school. Who did you play? Obviously, I played Ralph. Did you? Yeah. Ah. Yeah, yeah. I can't remember. And do you think you are a Ralph? At school, I was a sportsman. Right. And because I was good at sport, I sort of became a natural leader in a way. so I had good leadership skills and I feel like Ralph is the leader, right?

15:32And so I... But so is Jack. But Jack is, if you would put him in Harry Potter houses, Jack would be in Slytherin. Yes. And Ralph would be in Gryffindor. And I would argue I was more Gryffindor than Slytherin because I was afraid of what other people thought of me. And so when you're afraid of what other people think of you, that actually leans you into being quite kind because you don't want to upset anyone. Well, I don't think Jack has that. Jack is all about power and strength and wants to just dominate, without caring who he knocks down in front of him. I like it. Is that right or wrong? I don't know.

16:03I like it as a theory. I'm trying to work out whether the house in which you're in, if you want everyone to like you, is Gryffindor or Hufflepuff. And I'm not entirely sure. But that's because I've thought a lot about Harry Potter for a very, very long time. I'm Ravenclaw, by the way. It's true and true. And I tried to convince Jo that although she was in Gryffindor and has got a lot of Gryffindor elements, that the sorting hat would have given a choice between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw. I said, I think that you would have been given the choice and you would have chosen Gryffindor, but there's elements of you that belong in Ravenclaw too.

16:41This is absolutely fascinating. That's an exclusive, by the way. That is an exclusive. I've never said that. So you said that to the author? Yes. of Harry Potter, that you think that she would be Ravenclaw or Gryffindor? I think the sorting hat would have given her a choice. I mean, the sorting hat gave Harry a choice. And you think you would be Ravenclaw for what reasons? Why? Oh, I think the sorting hat would literally go Ravenclaw. I don't think there would be any sort of hesitation. I think that that sort of slightly bookish, very comfortable in their own company, interests in the world, but not desperate to lead the world.

17:17I think that's a Ravenclaw qualities and that's where I belong I believe. When you get your teeth into a play or a TV show whatever yes if you're an actor right typically a lot of actors would method their way into it so they would become the character right and we see lots of actors who do that right in lots of ways when you're writing do you have your version of methoding into it to understand each character how do you how do you change Harry Potter how do you write Lord of the Fights how do you make these adaptations and make them feel so, you know, how do you understand them? This is why I think writing is the best job, because when you're acting, you are surrounded by distraction.

17:57So you are surrounded by boom operators and camera operators and all the paraphernalia of a film set. When I'm writing, it's just me in a little hut that I've got at the back of the garden, and there's no one else there. And so I can disappear. And I think the reason why these actors want to stay in their character is because sometimes it's very hard for them with all the noise around them to stay to keep that concentration i can just concentrate effortlessly because there's nothing else i don't have wi-fi in my in my hut i don't have anything in my heart i just i just have my computer and i just try and absorb myself into the story and that's the best bit that's the bit that i love a lot of the time you're thinking very technically so you're not able to do that but but you know i am psychologically dependent on writing and my psychological dependence is because those moments when i just lose myself are the best moments in my life my wife rachel before we had children because um you'll learn to understand this there's always there's posts in this nurse pre and before we had children if i wasn't quite engaging with the world she would go uh go away and write and i would go away and write and then i come down a human being again now it would be like can you go and sort his packed lunch out please uh so it's slightly different but you know when we had time uh that's what that's what i do your wife would see that and she would see what you were distracted there was something on your mind yeah or just or just i wasn't quite i was fidgety and just like not at my best and she would just go go away and write you know the two things that do that for me are swimming and writing and it's all about solitude and writing for me is perfect solitude because i disappear the bit that distracts me whenever i'm in any situation is me and when i'm writing i stop being me and i like that when i'm swimming because i'm concentrating on swimming i stop being me too so it's yeah it's about it's about losing because it's you find it complicated being you sometimes i just just got a noisy brain and it's nice to lose that noise

20:10in 2010 you said i want to write stuff and i haven't yet um that says this is the problem but i don't necessarily know the answer yes and then 15 years later you've done exactly that with adolescence and what was interesting what i heard you talk about adolescence right is that when we talk about toxic masculinity, right? People look at those sort of big figures of the world who we would say, those are the ones who are causing it. And what you talk about is no, it's the ones, the smaller ones, the ones in the gaming community, the ones that you don't really see that are the real problem. That's interesting.

20:46Yeah. It's not the top of the waterfall. It's somewhere halfway down. And it's about the things that those people have taken on from the top of the waterfall and transformed. But the thing with it was also realizing who Jamie would listen to. Your question is always, who are the influences on my character? When you're building someone, you're trying to work out the tree around them. And that tree is always full of lots of interesting things, lots of interesting fruit and flowers and fauna. It's a complicated mix of stuff. and with Jamie I thought I don't think he'd be that interested in Andrew Tate I think he'd dismiss Andrew Tate I don't think he'd find him particularly he wouldn't be drawn to him whereas if he's interested in June or if he's interested in Minecraft or if he's interested in any of those spaces the people that would populate those spaces would be interesting to him and then I can see him being pulled down by one of two people within that community into somewhere darker.

21:48And the thing about algorithms is as soon as you're watching the darker stuff, more darker stuff gets fed and more darker stuff gets fed. And soon that's all you're consuming. And that's, that's where I thought Jamie would go. You speak about sort of the Andrew Tate's of this world, right? Yes. Can I also, you know, someone like Jamie, right in adolescence? Yes. the reason why and maybe it's not the reason why he isn't looking at someone like andrew tate is because is that too obvious yeah and that and that there's elements to andrew tate's diatribes which he would just be able to see past the manosphere is a very complicated place and it's not like it's a single being and in cell culture and andrew tate don't belong together at all and incel culture isn't that aggressive and isn't necessarily part of that more sort of posturing community but i did think the idea in incel culture that 80 of women are attracted to 20 of men would be a very powerful idea for jamie to hear and i do think that idea feeds a dislike making a distrust that would have sat in Jamie's head and helped build everything up.

23:04But Jamie isn't only a response to incel culture. Jamie certainly isn't only a response to Andrew Tay. Jamie is a response to his nurture. He's a response to his schooling. He's in response to his friendship group. He's in response to his own brain chemistry. He's a response to his own relationship with Shane, which is born from what happened at his sixth birthday party as much sits from the stuff that he read when he was 12 on the internet or the stuff that he heard or the stuff that was presented to him so it's it's he's a complicated mix and i hope we caught all those complicated mixes and that he's not just reduced to being this is what happens when you watch stuff on the internet for too long i hope that he's like a rounded character with lots of colors within him because that's i think a true portrait of damage and reducing him to one thing wouldn't be a true portrait what do you think we should be doing as a society to help kids like jamie i think we should be doing a lot of different things i think we i i do think uh a social media ban is a very good idea and jack i'm with you on that oh good but what why do you believe that's necessary because i think when brains are plastic we need to protect them and i think that we know what smartphones do to us and i think it's destroyed people's concentration.

24:21I think it's done huge damage to girls as well as boys. And I think it feeds toxic ideas. And I think anything that has a profit motive in keeping kids addicted to it is not something that we should be encouraging. We live in an age of the four richest men in the history of mankind, and they have been made rich by keeping us on our devices. And we should be trying to keep kids away from that in the same way that we keep kids away from cigarettes. So it's about ideas, but it's also about attention spans. It's about all sorts of different things, I think. But alongside that, we need to be investing in after-school programs.

25:03We need to be investing in ways to keep kids engaged in society. We need to be encouraging those that don't love sport to have something that they can do out of school that gives them some ego boost or some feeling of belonging to something in the last 20 years the damage to after-school clubs and everything else that came with it in terms of what austerity did and you know in the cuts to uh council programs which then led to councils having to cut all these different things that were available to children has done huge damages to our damage to our society so it's a mixture of stuff and we need to be encouraging more talk in schools and and creating safer spaces in schools for communication.

25:48I'm in complete agreement. I think it's really important. I think that we have the responsibility to change this for the younger generation. And what Australia have done is brilliant. It is brilliant. And France is going the same way. And there's a lot of other countries that are along that path. But it isn't the only answer. And it shouldn't be treated as the only answer. It's part of an answer, which is vital, vital, vital right now. We can't look at this world and go, oh, look what this beautiful place that we've made. I hope that our children are able to make a world like this one. What we need to do is try and encourage within them thoughts and a community that's better than ours so that the world that they then build is a nice one for us to grow old in.

26:29You know, your parents were big campaigners, right? Yes. And forgive me if I got this wrong, but your mum, before you were born, went to jail for two weeks. For the C &D. Yeah. For campaigning, for sitting on the road, right? Yes, yes. Which is fantastic. but that again if we talk about like what you were when you were a kid and six years old that's what you would have been ingrained within your mind oh yeah and so therefore you must be within you a campaigner as well against certain things and have real passions against it but i tell you what i'm slightly sad about is that my son is not quite growing up in the same household that when when i was a kid the only topic of conversation at every dinner and lunch and breakfast was was the world and was like, this is wrong.

27:11This is wrong. Oh, this is right. This is exciting. You know, that, you know, literally studying the newspaper or listening to the radio or doing all those kinds of things. And, uh, I have not created a similar sort of place for Elliot because I don't quite have my parents' self-belief. I think my dad, when he was in his seventies, he was a volunteer at the Citizens Advice Bureau when he retired. And he stopped because he was old and a bit tired. And he was just like, you know what, I'll leave this to the next generation. And then six months later, he went back to volunteering again, because he said, I can't read the paper if I'm not trying to change the world.

27:50And my dad sincerely believes that. And I, because I'm more timid than he is, and I'm more timid than my mum is, I don't quite have that in me. And so I don't think that Elliot's been exposed to things in the same way that I was exposed to things. He's been exposed to different things, but I am slightly sad that I haven't given him the same sort of grounding. And every now and again, I try and talk to him about democracy, or I try and talk to him about what's going on in America, but I don't think I've quite created a febrile enough environment for him. Yeah, but perhaps there is an argument that suggests that these things skip a generation, right?

28:25So if your parents are quite bullish, then you as the child probably not going to be quite as bullish, but then your child who sees their grandparents or see you not being quite as bullish, then becomes quite bullish. Oh, wow. I like that. But that's what you would, you would sort of think, right? Because you don't mimic... So what does that mean for your kid? What do you think? Totally fucked.

28:47But you, you must sort of agree, you know, in some ways with that, right? You don't want to mimic your parents. Some do, right? Some really do want to mimic their parents, but typically as kids, you want to, I think you grow up not wanting to be your parents and then slightly you become your parents. I think it'd be it'd be quite amazing if the thing that Elliot took from his childhood is that he should be more like Granddad Mike but maybe my dad is quite a fierce granddad as well as as well as was quite a fierce dad so the grandkids love him dearly but they're all a tiny bit afraid of him so I don't think necessarily that's where he'll go he'll probably be more like my um my mother-in-law Sandy who's just the most laid-back lovely person you can possibly imagine not that my dad isn't lovely I love my dad very very much.

29:26I mean the amazing you've created a show that's made you know conversation it's kind of it's changed how people think about society and our children growing up in it which is amazing you've shifted that and and just with adolescence it's got 141 million views in its first week or something ridiculous like that no no it wasn't enough okay the first week but i'd love it if it wasn't the first week let's change that um listen it took us all by surprise it was the shock of our lives And, you know, the shocking thing was, was not the sort of like it doing well in this country. That was lovely. But we thought we made something powerful that people would like.

30:02The shocking thing was, was when we were number one in Saudi Arabia for three weeks, because what they were able to take from, and this is the thing that TV is full of TV is full of people thinking that the only thing that international audiences can understand from our culture is a rich guy on a horse or a detective looking a bit sad. and actually that thing of going because i was told again and again and again about shows that i was trying to sell that i'd made in other countries no the accents are too strong the issues are too british this is too much about looking in and and people want to understand it whereas i think what netflix are doing not with adolescence but with with baby reindeer with squid game with shows like that is if you are specific and people understand your specificity then they will like it wherever they are in the world and they will and they will get what you're what you're trying to do and and that was the amazing thing that someone in saudi arabia understood what a kid from pontefract was going through what was it like working with steven graham again i love him yeah yeah it's the sixth thing we've done together so it's not like you know uh it's like putting on a pair of socks rather than necessarily going oh i'm working with steve it's like oh right okay him again um and uh he's as used to me as i am to him so uh yeah yeah i sat with him on a table once And I met Owen Cooper, who I love.

31:21Owen Cooper is a lovely boy. Lovely boy. Yes. And he's grounded. Yes. Well, his parents are really nice. His mum, I know very well, Noreen. She was a care worker. Like my mum was a care worker. And, you know, worked through the pandemic, was cutting her residence hair through the pandemic. You know, one of these people that was like the unsung hero of COVID. And I think Owen's got really good sort of solid people around him that will keep him in a good place.

31:54You mentioned earlier that you have autism. Yes. The diagnosis was in 2022. Is that right? I don't remember, but I like that you know. Well, I suppose when you were diagnosed with autism, was that a relief? Was that helpful? Yes, it was a relief, not necessarily for my present, but for my past. I think that thing of when you look back and you try and make sense of the decisions you've made and the times when you've been a less good version of yourself I don't say you can forgive those things but it helps you understand why you behaved in a certain way and for me autism helped me understand why I behaved in a certain way and why and why I'm and gave my anger with that younger version of myself, a sort of nice flannel to soothe it with.

32:46You said earlier that you'd be in Ravenclaw. Yes. With people that don't want to lead the world. But your writing clearly influences society in a big way. So therefore, why would you be in Ravenclaw? I think you can be in Ravenclaw. It's about a desire to be visible, I think. I think if you're in Gryffindor, you want to be at the front holding the sword, don't you? Whereas I think if you're on Ravenclaw, you want to be behind and you still want to be part of the mission to change things. But you don't necessarily want to be holding the sword at the front, which doesn't mean you don't want to be attacked.

33:20You just want to be attacked in a slightly different way. So you don't like, you like to be the step back. You like to be the one behind. Yeah, yeah. I cede power effortlessly. So you don't like being in control. You like being led. No. When Rachel and I, when my wife and I are on planes, she's very nervous, right? She doesn't like flying at all. I relax completely I can travel on any plane and relax completely because I have total faith that the pilot will do their job I don't have a second thought about whether the pilot will do their job whereas if I was flying the thing I would be a mess you know if I don't drive and when I used to drive I would just see a thousand accidents that I was going to cause and the damage I would do to other people whereas if someone else is driving I just stare out the window I don't go oh um mum you're driving and you're gonna crash us I just go oh that's fine I'm just gonna look out the window now and think my thoughts.

34:10Because you fear responsibility? Because I fear myself in responsibility. It's less a thought and more a knowledge. I know what I am when I'm driving the car. I'm someone that shouldn't be driving the car. You know, I'm just, I'm a danger to others. And whereas if I'm part of something, if I'm part of a team, I have faith in my ability to be able to contribute. I just don't want to be the one that's got the gun at the front. You're a true team player i'm a coward who uh who doesn't who doesn't want to be the captain whereas you were you're ralph you want to be the captain yeah but but i like being the captain i am because it made me feel good as a kid i think i think as a when i was younger i thought the only way to stand out was to be the leader yeah and and so i desired to be the leader yes it was for ego in a way which is not a healthy thing or it's it's a self-belief that that you think you can do good and uh it's something to be admired we need people like that so you don't drive no i did learn to drive and then i got ill and when i got ill i wasn't able to drive and then i stopped taking the amount of pills that i was which meant i was able to drive and i just decided i just can't do it i've the same thing with alcohol i stopped drinking alcohol then i stopped drinking caffeine then So all that stuff got cut out when I got ill and then I didn't bring it back.

35:33And that included driving. And I think that's better. But I failed my driving test five times. I passed on my sixth attempt. So I was never particularly someone that would be of great use to the roads. You mentioned that you got ill. What happened? Can I ask? I had this condition called conalertic urticaria, which is an allergy to heat. so when I was in my final year of university I had a sort of complete physical breakdown in that I became allergic to sunlight radiators and finally I became allergic to body movement because every time you move you generate heat so I was flat on my back for six months waiting for the pills to sort of kick in and then they found the right pill combination and then I was moving gradually and for about 15 years I was quite seriously disabled by it I am so sorry no no oh, it's fine.

36:25You know, it happened. You know, my dad has a phrase every year. He says every year has been the best year of his life because every year is brought into the place that he currently is. And I sort of subscribe to that. I like that idea that, you know, and so if I hadn't been that ill, it wasn't a great year, but if I hadn't been that ill, I wouldn't find myself here. So then I've got to be grateful for the illness. So you believe everything happens for a reason in a way? No, I think that everything builds you. I don't think anything is fated. I think everything builds you and then you end up in a situation where you are who you are and I'm very happy with who I am I feel very very lucky to be able to do the job I do and I feel even more lucky to have the family I do and because of those two things I go that took me here and if I hadn't had that then maybe I wouldn't have met Rachel and if I hadn't had that then I wouldn't have written and you know all those different things the butterfly effect right exactly exactly exactly though everything I wrote when I was in bed, I did write and I had this feeling like, you know, this great pain will cause me to be a great writer because that's what you hear about, don't you?

37:27Great writers are in great pain. Everything I wrote was so self-absorbed and absolute bullshit. It was horrific. It was so crap. Yeah, because I felt so sorry for myself. I felt so sorry for myself and you could just feel it in the writing. But it's scary when that's happening to you so young and you haven't experienced it before, you feel like this is going to be eternal. I feel like it's never going to end. And that's always quite an upsetting place to be in. Yes. And I had a doctor that said that he didn't think I was going to get better. So I did think at one point this was it. I was going to be in Wales on my back for the rest of my life.

38:02Mentally, what does that do? It doesn't take you to a pleasant place. No. No, I can imagine. So you then you get better, you start writing. So then that's interesting that you write about the things that you're feeling at a time. Are you still like that? No, no, no. I don't know what I'm feeling. So, but I do know what I'm writing. So, yeah.

38:26Talked about Lord of the Flies. It's one of these, you know, books that we, or plays that you see that we kind of grew up with, right? As kids, you sort of studied it. Why have you decided to be a part of it now? It's something I've always wanted to do. This project started with a conversation in Joel Wilson. Joel Wilson, who's the exec producer of this project and whose company made it, I was in his house having Sunday lunch. He's a mate of mine. And he said, go on, what's the book? What's the one book you've always wanted to do? And I said, Lord of the Flies. And I tried to do it previously when I was in my early 30s and just been rebuffed by the estate.

38:59But it's a book that I remember reading very clearly for the first time. And then I remember rereading. And it's just one I've revisited over and over again. I think it's extraordinary. And I think it's used as shorthand in the worst ways. It's used as shorthand to express moments which are all about simplicity. And actually, I think Lord of the Flies is an incredibly complex and interesting book where he cares about all those characters. He cares about Jack. You know, Golding really does care about Jack and he presents a 3D portrait of Jack. Roger, I think, is probably lost to the waves but he's trying to express something about society that's complicated and people use it as something and use it to express something quite simple about society about hate and actually he's showing all sides sides of hate so yes i think it's i think it's brilliant explain that more detail what do you mean he's showing all sides of hate well if you read the book and and hopefully we brought it out in the show jack is someone that has a relationship with love that's that's difficult.

40:06He has a relationship with shame that's very, very clear. And he has a relationship with the need to lead, the need to be Ralph, which is very, very, I don't want to use the word complicated again, but that is the right word in this. There's so many shades to him as a character. And without him, that island becomes a safe place because he is the ingredient that changes things. maybe someone else would emerge but you know jack is the match that sparks the rift jack is the match that then sets fire to the island and yet if one or two moments were different the whole story would change if one or two moments if they if ralph and him managed to find each other in one or two moments if jack had less of a violent reaction to certain things in one or two moments the whole story becomes different and and so it's a tragedy and it's a tragedy that's that's about the little things we do the little decisions we make and trying to capture that is almost impossible in in in story form but golding does it and golding does it seemingly effortlessly it feels effortless as a story and so i think it's an amazing story to tell and it's an amazing story to bring to tv i mean we're lucky enough to be the first people to bring it to tv and i think it's a story that suits tv and the longer it's never been that's never been done on tv before wow there's been two films one in the 60s one one in the early 90s we're the sort of third chance of of dramatizing it and it's so suited to tv and it's not a show that rushes it's a show that sits and carefully observes these children.

41:56And the performances are just incredible. I don't know how Mark Munden, who's our brilliant director, I don't know how he got these performances out of these kids. They are sensational and they do show every color of these very, very complicated children. It's so interesting you talk about those little moments. Yeah. And we don't realize that. What we think in life is, I don't know, it's those sliding doors moments, right? We think it's the big moments of life that change the course of everything. It's those little moments, those one conversations, the fact that we left home a little bit later, or whatever it is.

42:28Those little ones add up to what actually happens. And you're so right. Within Lord of the Flies, there are so many moments where it doesn't have to go down that way. Yeah. But it does. Yeah. The trailer got released yesterday, and there's been all this sort of people tweeting and retweeting this Tongan story. Do you know this Tongan story? That a group of Tongan boys ended up on an island, a desert island, and they actually lived very happily on that island. and people are going, well, this could never happen. Look, this happened here. And it's like, but actually that backs up what Golding's saying because everything they do in this story is inflected with what they've been taught.

43:06And this society of British boys have been brought up in such a way that when you talk about those little moments, the choices made in those little moments are full of the history of these boys And the way that they meet these moments is as a response to 11 years of learning. And those Tongan boys, whatever they were going through, were able to live this harmonious existence. But Golding recognized in that time, in that age of post-war, with populism still very much in ascendance, with hatred still very much visible around in our country, that they took all that with them to the island. And then this tragedy paid out in response to that.

43:53And I think there's something about doing this show in this moment that's very interesting because of that, because we are again in a moment, it feels like, where it's easier to hate than love. It's easier to pull someone down and push them up and where populism is in a very, very dangerous place. Yeah. And it's those things where the audience or whoever, an audience of life, right, where we're screaming, why are you doing that? You don't need to do that. And with Lord of the Flies, it's kind of the same. You're kind of going, don't do that. That doesn't need to happen. And that's why it's such a tragedy, right?

44:28Because you can see the other road. Yes. Can I ask you, because another thing that's laid at Lord of the Flies is that it's a takedown of public school boys. And I don't think it is. I think it's a takedown of boys that have been placed in different circumstances and a number of group of boys would have done something differently, depending on where they're from. But the point is the history, not necessarily the class makeup. Do you think that's true? Or do you recognize that there are things in the fact that this is a public school that you can see play out amongst these kids? It's a really interesting question.

45:07So, yeah. So having gone to a public school, right? Radley, right? I went to Radley. Which is quite a public, public school. It's a very public, public. It's a very Radley school for boys. Very public, public school. We wore gowns. but what's interesting right is when I went to Radley what I realized is the only way I describe it is I loved my time yeah at the school because I got to play sport and I there were grounds to run in and it was just it was magical for lots of reasons but the only way you survived there's you had to it was the survival of the fittest really truly yeah it's it was a food chain so you had to be the lion in order to survive.

45:45And did you watch other kids fade? Totally 100 100 percent and what I realized very early on so my very first year right is that the older you we lived in they were they were called socials a b c d e f right that's what it was those the houses that you were in and each house had I don't know. So they didn't have names they were literally they were literally letters yeah wow and each house would have uh well how many would it be 20 100 to 150 boys right Maybe 100 boys. And I very quickly realized that in the house, the top year ran the house. And the leader of the top year ran the whole house. The teachers didn't.

46:20The boys did. And so therefore, your mentality is, right, you've got to survive. So what I did is a survival mechanism, right, is you became friends with the top years. That's what you would do, right? But then as you came up the years, you would then become the leader yourself. So it's very hierarchical. And were there years when the top years were dominated by Jax and there were years when they were dominated by Ralphs. Without a doubt. My first year was dominated by Jax. Right. So it was tough. So, I mean, I could tell you some horrific stories which happened to us. I mean, some people call it horrific.

46:49I saw it. What was very odd, right, is that if you were, this sounds terrible, and I'm sure it's all changed, but at my school, if you were strong enough, you were kind of picked on by the old years. If you weren't, you were kind of left. It's okay. so because I was seen to be quite cocky and confident it was a sign of respect to you know be picked on away so I had things like um one night they came and sprayed links on me and set fire to me yeah yeah yeah I was set fire to yeah they lit it so it all came off me like things like that yeah but it was a sign of respect it's very strange so it's so and they and it wasn't do you guys know this yeah yeah it was very weird it was it was kind of weird but if you were if that happened to you is a sign of respect which is quite odd and so what happened was is that and were you burnt no not really but it was not really not really wow it's quite weird to think about it right it was and it's now completely changed it just would not happen right this is back in the day yeah but it was um it was very much so from my experience right and then i remember my very first year of radley i did lord of the flies i got it yeah i understood it straight away i understood that if you, if we were to be sent, if I group of boys, 20 in my year, were sent to an island, that would happen.

48:11And you could call out the Ralph, the Jack, the Piggy. You could do that. But if your group, if your group of 20 have been sent, because you would have been a leader, you might have been a Ralph. And so you might have made friends with the other Ralph. And it might have been a harmonious island. Potentially. I look at it like my year, right? And the thing is, I think why the differences... Equally, what could have happened is someone could have just got Link sprayed on them and then burned to death. But also, if you look at Jack, I sort of think that, you know, there's that quote, if you have a barrel of apples and there's one rotten apple in it, everything turns rotten, right?

48:45That's the tricky thing. No, and the interesting thing is that the real rotten apple is Roger. Would Roger have been given the opportunity to have the power he had if it wasn't for Jack? And is Jack half rotten, half fresh? That's what makes the book interesting. It's not about one rotten apple. It's actually about apples that are all a bit different. And the one that you would think as the most dangerous needs to be given his spurs by someone who's perhaps not as dangerous. If you could pick something else to another adaptation, like Lord of the Flies, what would be your next? It was Lord of the Flies.

49:23That was it. This is it. This is the one that I've been waiting all my life to do. So I don't have another one that's sort of lined up after that. I'm sure I will do adaptations again because I love doing adaptations, but Lord of the Flies was my dream book. And I'm so pleased we managed to persuade the estate to let us do it. Guys, I'm just going to stop the podcast there because the next part is brought to you by Audible, okay, where you can find all the wellness hacks and guidance you might need for the new year and beyond. Okay, so red alert. It's the new year. I don't know if you know that, but it is.

49:57And you know what that means. It's time to think about our wellness habits and really try to make those resolutions that we're trying to make stick actually stick this year. I'll go first. Okay, so this is my current wellness routine. And I want to know what you think of it. So I get up and I go to the gym. It's really important for me to kind of really get that energy and endorphins that I get from it. Whether that may be a run or it may be some weights or maybe some cardio, it may be even a walk. Now that I have a kid, I do a lot of walking, right? Because it's much easier than actually going to the gym.

50:28But for me, that is kind of a fundamental thing that really helps me with my wellness routine, without a doubt. My wife takes a lot of vitamins. I've started taking vitamins. That really helps. And also one of the big things that I do is electrolytes. Take your electrolytes, put it in your water. Those kinds of things really help you feel hydrated throughout the day. Now, that's the kind of the simple things I do. The other things on the side of that. Yes, I've tried meditating. A lot of you know that meditating is quite hard to switch your brain off, but I try and do some sort of meditation, whether it's reading a book, a moment of silence, playing a game like chess, whatever it may be to have those relaxing moments.

50:59It's really important. And then one of the things I really do in my routines is I, sounds a little bit cheesy, but I give gratitude and thanks. So every morning and every evening, I will always give thanks for my family, my friends, for the things I get to do. and that kind of gratitude towards life really makes you, it fills your cup up. Well, for me, it does. And lastly, for me, healthy diet. It's so hard to be healthy, especially when the weather is a bit miserable, especially when it's raining outside. You want to come home, eat all the things that make you feel good, the pizzas, I know, the sweets, the ice creams, whatever it may be.

51:31But actually, if you try and be a bit more strict with yourself, especially with your diet, it can help you so much throughout the week, throughout the days. Even though I've got my wellness routines, there's definitely a few I'm keen to try out this new year. Now, a few things I'm going to throw at you. Natural sunlight exposure, getting outside, maybe for 30 minutes, walking when you wake up. Okay. It sounds so strange, but actually getting outside and getting that sun on you makes you feel so much better. Digital sunsets. Okay. Check this out. Turning off all electronic screens an hour before going to bed helps your brain produce the melatonin it needs for deep rest.

52:06I mean, you should really try it. I actually sleep with my phone outside of the room. And I learned that from someone called TJ Powell, who came on the podcast. I don't sleep with my phone in the room. Daily gratitude journaling is another thing I want to try. Writing down three specific things you're thankful for rewires your brain. Now I do this by talking, but actually writing it down, your brain notes the positives rather than the stresses. Try and keep a journal, a log, whatever it may be. It will really, really help. Now, as you can see, there are so many different ways to find the wellness that suits you.

52:36And it starts with learning and inspiration. Okay. And there's no better place to find a range of audiobooks and podcasts to find your wellness than at Audible. For example, if you're wanting to know about your diet and how crucial food is for wellness, then tune into, okay, Reset Your Health with my buddy, Jamie Oliver. In this series, he talks to six experts who can cut through the noise about our diets. That's just one place to start on Audible. So if you want to get your fix of wellness content, visit audible.co.uk to find your wellness today. See audible.co.uk for terms. Quentin Tarantino, do you like Tarantino?

53:10Yes. Okay, so Tarantino says that he believes that writers, creators are like boxers. You know, you only have a certain amount of rounds in you. Yeah. Do you believe that? In terms of creating shows, movies, writing, whatever it may be? No, I don't believe that. I think that there's moments when you hit better form and there's moments when you hit worse form. Really? And you've just got to sort of navigate your way through that. but this sort of 10 films thing i don't think it's done him any favors and i don't i don't think he's done the world any favors he's a magnificent maker of stories you know if you look at spielberg's career or you look at scorsese's career you know these are people that have done 50 years at the cliff face and there's moments when they've done stuff that's perhaps not the best work that they've ever done and there's moments when they hit the heights but but it's not like they had 10 films you know if you'd stop spielberg's career at 10 films i'm not even sure you get to schindler's list you know like you know like you know i'm not sure you would and you certainly wouldn't get to lincoln and you certainly wouldn't get to you know like west side story which was magnificent you wouldn't you wouldn't get to the other things and and with scorsese arguably he's making you know he's just made the best film of his career you know like you know so yeah i i don't i don't think people should be put in any sort of box and we're always kind of negotiating our way out of it and do you do you worry for cinema leonard capri who you locked eyes with yes my friend your friend I love that you locked eyes with it.

54:33I could throw anyone off. Oh, God, it's like the Mona Lisa. Yeah, it really is. It really is. It really is. And the Golden Globes is constructed so that the famous people are on the floor bits. Yeah. And then the less famous people are on the... So I'd not seen any of these famous people until I walked down because I was in the sort of like nosebleeds. And then suddenly I was facing them all. I could keep on talking and I know you can't because you have to other places to go. I just want to say thank you. No, thank you very much. I'm an odd booking. So I'm grateful you brought me on. No, you're kidding me.

55:07You're not an odd booking too. You were fantastic booking because everything you've done, everything you kind of stand for, it's a complete honor to talk to you, to be honest. Well, thank you very much. We like to end the conversation. Yes. With a hundred questions. No, no, no. I'm aware of this bit. Yes, I've listened. And some do well at this moment and some do less well. That's eight questions. Are you ready for this? Yes. What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? Be good. And I have it inscribed on my body. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? Although Jack Thorne seemed to be suffering from a head cold, he did very well in the part of Ronnie Winslow.

55:44My first ever review. When I played the Winslow boy. That's great. That's good. Get that tattooed on you. What scares you most about yourself? Hurting others. That is my favourite answer. That's great. When was the last time you cried and why? My son read out a story to me a couple of nights ago that's called My Neighbour's a Zombie, which was brilliant and beautiful and made me cry. What's something you can't let go of? Shame. Want to talk about it? What's your guilty pleasure? The NFL. I'm a huge NFL fan what's your team? we used to be Pittsburgh Seeders yeah because I used to love Rosalberger and I used to be a huge fan now you miss Big Ben and you can't find a replacement I can't find a replacement but now I'm more Chiefs and that's not because of the glory but I just loved Mahomes when he was a rookie and I just became a fan of that so I kind of liked everything who's your team?

56:48Tampa Bay Buccaneers do you know Mike Evans? yes wide receiver Mike Evans is the sweetest kindest nicest man in the whole world and he can run like a train and he's built like a tank he i think his mom had him when she was 14 yeah and then when he was nine or something i'm getting these details wrong his uncle killed his father so he grew up in a very very difficult place and he's emerged with it with so much class and generosity and um uh so i love him as a person and i love him as a wide receiver and when he got a thousand yards not this year but the year before when it was the last 10 seasons and it was the last pass of the game yeah i made a noise that i don't think i've ever made before or since i was just so happy for him and uh it was just such a beautiful moment and literally my mother-in-law was upstairs with my wife and came down the stairs because she was concerned for me but i was so happy for mike so i love mike that is brilliant you know that is i love that yeah he got um a thousand yards for 10 seasons in a row and it's never been done equal Jerry Rice's record equal Jerry Rice is amazing just amazing what turns you off oh that's a difficult question I'm very easy to please um uh selfishness what turns you on kindness um Mike Evans I might start supporting the Buccaneers as well what do you like most about yourself I like being able to write you know like It gives me great pleasure.

58:23Great pleasure. And would, even if no one was interested, just the ability to write. And everyone's got that ability, but just I like that ability in me. I would do podcasting even if no one listened. I actually generally would. I love it that much. Bonus one. Which actor would you most want to work with next? I mean, Stephen Graham. That's the honest answer. It's always Steve. He's off being fabulous now. but it'll come back to me and last bonus one for me would you ever write a role for me are you looking to act don't worry I can I can act oh boy I can act when I do Lord of the Flies but everyone's a bit more grown up you're Ralph is that a deal Jack Thorne thank you so much for going on thank you very much for having me thank you thank you so much that was fantastic i could have gone for hours guys i really hope you enjoyed that episode um firstly a huge thanks to jack thorne what a great guy i mean that moment that he said that he didn't really have friends until he was 32 years old and then he married his best friend that really really got me um just an incredible guy really talented super smart and just empathetic and kind in lots of ways.

59:48So many things I took from this episode. I mean, my main point is, is the whole conversation around social media. Look, I'm a huge consumer of social media. We know that we probably see my stuff online the whole time, right? But the more and more I spend online, the more and more I realize how bad it actually is for us. And now just becoming a dad, I really worry about that for my younger baby, right? Growing up with social media. We don't really know what it does, where it's going. We don't see the harmful effects it's had because it's kind of a new thing. So I'm a big believer and I, you know, some people may be against me, but I'm a big believer in not allowing younger kids to have smartphones until they're a certain age when they can make choices.

1:00:27I think we should treat it like drugs, cigarettes, alcohol, like we do in the UK. That conversation was incredible. Jack, thank you for being so open and honest about so many different things. And we hope you really enjoyed this too. Now remember to subscribe to the show if you haven't already. And of course, we're going to be back next week for another episode of Great Company.