AMOL RAJAN: NOTHING CAN PREPARE YOU FOR THE DEATH OF A PARENT

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2:10Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang, and this is Great Company.

2:19Well, hello. Oh, God. Oh, she's lowering my volume. Can you say that again? That absolutely killed my ears. Well, hello. Hello. Hello. Can we be honest today? Oh no, what are you going to be honest about? Are you going to be honest about my face? Listener, I'm glad you're a listener and not a viewer because I have an eye infection and my face, I don't know what's happened to me, it's buffed up and I look like Quasimodo. I had to forewarn Jamie before I came in and was like, so we're going to record tomorrow. Just a heads up, I look like I live in a bell tower. You do. What was even sweeter, we just had a meeting with someone else.

2:59Yeah. And I think you emailed them as well. I did. Because they mentioned that you had emailed them in our meeting. Some stranger. Some stranger you had emailed. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, still on for the meeting tomorrow. Just a heads up. My eyes got funky. My face is half buffed up. And then also just now, before coming down, I had a meeting with JB, someone else in the office. Did you? And he said, have you got five minutes for me? I was like, yeah, just a heads up, I look like I've been in a war. Yeah, I didn't go on any calls yesterday, I suppose. I was like, no one can see me. Well, listen, I'm going to be, you still look beautiful, so don't you worry.

3:37Oh, thanks, guys. But yeah, this is real face for Radio Face today. Well, if someone's just tuning in, we should probably say, as always, who we are. My name is Jamie. I'm the host of this podcast, and you are? I'm producer Jemima, and I produce the podcast. You do produce the podcast, amongst other podcasts. By the way, I want to say congratulations. Paloma Faith. Thanks. It's looking amazing. If you haven't listened to another one of our Jam Pot shows, Paloma Faith, Mad Sad Bad, that is produced by also Jemima. Today is really exciting because we have Amal Rajan coming into the studio. I'm excited for Amal because he is a very established and well-known broadcaster.

4:15Yeah. But he also presents quite often the Today programme on Radio 4. And I love his voice. Yeah, he's amazing. But he's also University Challenge. He's the host of University Challenge. He was the editor of The Independent at 29 years old, which is incredibly young. I've met Amal a few times now. And every single time I've ever had a conversation with him, I've always gone, man, I would love to extend this. Because some people love talking to other people. They love it. I love it. And when I meet someone else who also loves it, it's like this Armageddon of just excitement. And every time I've been with Amol, it's been like that.

4:54He's not only interested in talking about himself, but also interested in the other person. And he's interviewed the likes of Bill Gates, or he did Philip Schofield's first interview when all the sort of scandal had come out. He's quite ruthless, but he's also incredibly kind. He asks the right questions, but knows when to draw back. Super smart. He has this amazing story about his parents, of how hard they worked. And so he has this huge admiration for hard work, but in the right way. he's very upsettingly recently lost his father and so I'm really interested to understand about that space as well not for any reason of my own I feel like grief hits us in different ways and I'm interested to understand that I think it's going to be a really great episode I cannot wait for today's episode so please enjoy it remember if you haven't checked out our social media channels at Great Company Podcast you can email us as well greatcompany at jampopproductions.co.uk we're also on YouTube hoops if you want to watch us you can watch us there okay you ready for this i'm very ready enjoy this episode of great company with amol rajan i'm amol rajan and i really am great company i really did want pj to be doing this man she was so we're gonna start is this where we're gonna start yeah let's just let's just be honest okay that chat that she did with you she got some juice out of you, man.

6:13I listened to it last week where PJ, producer Jemima, interviews you and she asks some deep questions, man. Deep questions. And you were talking about therapy and depersonalization and not wanting to be forgotten. And I thought, oh my God, I know Jamie now. I feel like I know. Anyway, sorry.

6:33You have like a core group of mates. Unbelievably close. Unbelievably close that you kind of grew up with. You love each other. you guys talk to each other you ask how you are big time 100 right and you say how are you as mates typically men don't really do that and that resonated with me so much so much because i remember there was a point in my life right and maybe i told you this maybe i didn't anyway it was sort of draw during like in between that lockdown period or whatever and we i went around to a group of friends house and there was a group of us we still now chat on a whatsapp group and we was sitting there and we're having some drinks and it was just like five, six guys.

7:10And I suddenly said, guys, we should get vulnerable. Come on. Let's, let's talk about, let's actually talk about something like, let's not talk about football or business or whatever. We're just, let's be vulnerable. And they went, all right. I went, so do you ever feel lonely? Do you ever feel lonely? And one by one. Yeah, man, I do. And my friend went, do you know what makes me really jealous? My little brother, who is 16 years old, he plays on like Call of Duty every single night and he has on his screens all his mates and they just chat i wish i could do that with mates that sounds so good and also that way of making gaming something that's a bit social i mean there's risks and downsides whatever but like i think that idea that gaming isn't just this solitary loner kind of in the game like my son is kind of who's eight and about to be nine i mean mate i don't know about you when you got video games as a kid but i swear they get them so young these days man i got a snes super nintendo entertainment system let's go when i was like 50 Let's go.

8:04Remember that Donkey Kong Jr. Mario Kart? Mate, to this day, I swear down, I would do the fastest lap at Ghost Valley 1. No, you wouldn't. There's not a... I swear to God, my Mario Kart was unbelievable. Mate, my Mario Kart would take you out of town. My Mario Kart would actually... Do you know what? It would actually be bad for the brand and the business, and I wouldn't want to do that. But I swear I got that when I was like 14 or something. And these days, at school, they get games so much younger. Like Nintendo Switch, where they're like five. And I just think that's wrong. So you kind of got this challenge as a parent, and I'm a parent many times over now.

8:37You've got a challenge of like, are you going to kind of roll with it? Or are you going to put up a big fight? You've got to choose your battles. And I sort of think you've got to gaming, the people who are running the world these days, people in AI, like this guy Demis Hassabis, who's an amazing British guy, founded DeepMind, or Elon Musk, the way they relax is video games. And I feel like in our lifetime, video games have gone from being seen as this kind of like indulgence where, you know, it's for weirdos to bring. Actually, it's what the smartest people in the world do. So I'm all about embracing it.

9:06But do you think we're disconnected? Do you think, because there is a part of me that feels that we are like a little bit disconnected. Not even a little bit, we are disconnected. The evidence is there. Like there is a massive global loneliness epidemic. And for people who are our age roughly or a bit young in their 20s, there is amazing, terrifying evidence that people are not forming relationships. And the only, you know, if you look at when this has happened and it's like sexual relationships, it's lasting relationships, it's marriage, which is in very steep decline. And it's happened over the same period exactly as the rise of the internet.

9:40And you, you know, it's maybe a bit much to say you can show a direct cause, but I can't think what else it would be. I mean, maybe there's a general cultural feeling that you should be freer for longer. But actually I think that, I mean, this can make me sound very traditional, but I think true freedom and belonging and happiness comes from connection. Without a doubt. And that means commitment. Without a doubt, by the way, because they did, I saw this amazing TED talk where there was a guy who spoke about a social experiment that happened over 100 years. You probably know this better than me, right?

10:15Which is a social experiment to understand happiness, right? And so they followed something like 718 people across 100 years. It's one of the longest social experiments that ever happened because typically funding runs out, people die, people get bored, all that kind of jargon, right? and they followed these different groups of people. Some became athletes, some became presidents, some became businessmen, some became alcoholics, some became drug addicts, some people went to prison, some people didn't. It was a whole mixture of different people and every two years they checked in on them. They checked in what their lives were like, what their connections were like, what they were doing as a job, their bank balance, their brains, everything.

10:47They did it for a hundred years and what they worked out at the end of the social experiment is what the sort of causes happiness isn't fame and power and wealth and things you think it is, The people with the strongest connections between family and friends, they were the happiest. And often those would be people who are really connected to their neighborhood. You know, for most of human history, people lived in really small groups, 150 people. Like tribes would be like your local group of 100 or 150 people. And now because of the internet, we think we're connected. I mean, you are connected.

11:18You've got this enormous following. You're connected to this group of a million people. But the connections, it's different. It's different. It's different. And there's something about being interconnected and having a thick interwoven connection with other people, which is everything. And I feel like as you go through your life, it's the thing you've got to work hardest on. And especially with your mates, you know, if you're lucky enough to have a family, if you're maybe looking after old people, the thing that goes is your health and your social life. And, you know, especially if you're kind of in your 30s or 40s, if you're working hard, and I really believe in hard work.

11:49if you're working hard, the thing you dial up massively is like hard work and family and it's your mates that go. And I realized the other day, I was, do you know what? I realized as I came home from work the other day, I was feeling really down and I'm a bit sleep deprived. I've got a lot going on at work. It was the anniversary of my dad's death and that was probably the trigger. And I realized I just miss my mates, man. I miss being young and free and chatting to my mates about any old stuff and yeah, being vulnerable with them because you can do that. you can do that with your family but it's different with your mates do you have a moment in your memory where you can remember that moment when you're with your buddies and life was just there were you we no money no responsibilities no nothing but it was just like that moment where you couldn't be happier i had that for years man i mean i do you know one big genuine worry i have is that i mean it's deep but one big worry i have is that i just i just preferred being young.

12:48That's why Peter Pan is my hero. It was so good. It was great. It was so good. And do you know when you're young you're kind of... But that's responsibility free, right? That's why we enjoyed it. Yeah, and there's a different kind of existential satisfaction. I mean, nothing feels as fulfilling as being embedded in a family that's kind of going through life. Being a dad and crucially being a husband and a brother and a son that is profoundly fulfilling. it connects you to like bigger ideas in a wonderful way but i tell you what else is good is like jumping off boats when you're 18 and a bit pissed i love that man and i did it for years as well man i did it for you and you know i had such a good time and you know what i was nice about it as well like me and my mates we didn't hurt anyone we didn't harm anyone we just had such a good time listening to music and like channeling that probably a bit of the spirit you had in made in chelsea that's sort of well what mattered was like who you who are you going to meet today yeah Who are you going to link up with?

13:45It was the best. Yeah, where's your next drink going to come from? Oh, dude, I remember though, I have like some memories, but I remember I was in South America and I was like traveling with buddies and we had no phone, no nothing. I was like 18, 19 at the time. Talk about connected. You must have felt so close to them. Anyway, we were waiting for our bus and we took buses everywhere, like 15, 20 hour buses. And I was sitting there and I was looking at my friends and they were kicking a football round in the dirt and I was like, man. Heaven. That is, this is, and I remember I couldn't, I couldn't remember a time I was like I know what is this feeling I know but isn't the danger though that you end up just trying to recreate that I had I went on holiday to Nice and there's something about Nice which is a kind of rich place you know beautiful that was Captain Antibes and Sean Le Pan and Cannes and all that I went there as like an 18 year old and then again in my 20s and I think basically I'm just trying to recreate it and I think that's I think that's dangerous man because the other thing if you have kids I mean one of the things about having kids is like if you're fortunate enough for it to work out because everyone can and if you've got the financial circumstances to make it happen if you have kids you know that's a long period of your life where you basically give up a huge amount and it's cool and it's important and god i'm so blessed but like i miss those holidays with mates man and i actually even now so i come up with a little kind of annual plan and things that i often get very excited about i want to try and get time away with my wife without kids and that's no insult to them and then maybe just one weekend with my mates and i'm like what would you do do you know what it's changed back in the day it would be like let's get a massive house and have like a you know three days of a lot of fun now it's like we're kind of plotting for kind of like we're like maybe we should go somewhere where we can go for like a 10k run and then go to the and then go to oh my god we are so old what have we even come do you think they'll have a backgammon board because that'd be great that'd be great we can take cards and play poker and sit by the fire that'd be amazing oh man it's changed but you know that Quality time with mates is a thing that goes.

15:44It's a thing I'm desperate to get back. Do you think we spend too much time on like couples and romance at the expense of friendships? I think that successful, happy life is one that kind of turns the dial up and down on different things at different points. You know, me and my wife have got four healthy children, which is to win the lottery four times. I mean, we wouldn't even come close to what we've got. And we went through years of horrific IVF and, you know, So I got it. What do you mean horrific IVF? As you fold your arms and get closed off? I worry about the idea that a lot of people think that you can delay having kids because IVF is like this fallback option.

16:25And IVF is a near miracle technology. It's an amazing thing and it's a wonderful thing, but it doesn't work for everyone. And I really think it's important, especially for your listeners who are maybe in that period of their lives where they're thinking about having children to realize that it doesn't work for everyone. And it's a lot of heartache. And the thing about IVF is if you knew it was going to be all right at the end, because you're going to end up with four kids, it'll be fine. But as you're going through it, it's awful because you don't know how it's going to end up. And even as I say this, it's incredibly important for people to realize that it's unfair, as life is unfair, because the physical hell is mostly born by the woman who's often having to, you know, have injections, who's going through all sorts of cycles, hormonal fluctuations, and it's awful.

17:13And it's all about this one end result where you want a pregnancy test, which says you're pregnant. And if it doesn't work, it's horrendous. And the whole time that I was editor of The Independent, which is a wonderful job I got to do in my very late 20s and 30s, I had this kind of secret life where I was trying to run a newspaper, turn a business around, be a good boss, be a good journalist, be a good leader. But at the same time, my heart was hurting because we're going through IVF. And in the end, it worked. And it worked out for our children. And I feel so incredibly blessed. But, you know, if you're thinking about that, or if you're embarking on it, and if people want to talk to me about it, I'd happily talk to anyone for hours about it.

17:53But it doesn't always work, and it's painful along the way. Just talk me through that journey quickly. How does IVF work? IVF is basically conception outside of the womb. So you have to extract the eggs. And to extract the eggs, you have to sort of, as it were, pump up the ovaries. And then there's an invasive procedure where you get lots of eggs out, hopefully if you're lucky, but sometimes you don't get many eggs out. And then you have the man's sperm who provides a sample and then you mix them in a Petri dish and you hope that you create embryos and they develop over a few days. And if they develop strongly enough to day three and day five, where I think they're called a blastocyst, you then having again pumped up the lining of the uterus you implant them and hope that they'll take and you become pregnant and you know you've got to therefore you've got to extract the eggs the conception's got to work and then once you put the fertilized embryo back it's got to take and that requires extraordinary amounts of things to go right yeah and each of those processes can last for months and in those periods it's like three months of like is our life going to go down this path or is it going to go down this path are you asking this partly because you're thinking about all this because it's front of mind for yourself because you spoke to PJ very honestly about it.

19:07Yeah I spoke a lot recently on the show about like kids right because generalizing but most of us have a blueprint we want this this and this and this is what we think it's going to be and my blueprint was different right I kind of as I got older thought like I was going to have kids and have a family and then that shifted in my mind and I thought I'm not going to have kids I'm not going to have family I'm not going to find someone that I love and fall in love with I'm just going to go and have fun for the rest of my life And I was in this sort of like dopamine, like craving period where I didn't want to stop having fun forever.

19:37Then I met Sophie and Sophie kind of changed that all for me. And she really wants to have kids. She really wants to have kids. And I had an internal battle. I never told her that I was like, I don't think I want to do this. I never told her that. Just kept quiet. Because you thought you'd lose a relationship? Because I was scared of the reaction. I probably knew that yeah if I had told her the truth then the relationship wouldn't happen so I was having this secret battle within myself and every single time kids were spoken about I would like my whole anxiety would go up You left the restaurant?

20:09I left the restaurant I can't listen I listened to this podcast I mean and PJ got that I thought that was so moving I thought and I thought that is deep man Even worse than that I was with her sister who is just pregnant and my brother-in-law and her and I had to leave like I said I just got to leave guys Why are you so scared? I have always lived my life where I run businesses and different things, but there's always an eject button. There's always a way out. Kids, there is not. Kids, you won't. Tell me about it. You're locked in, right? And that, for me, is a really terrifying prospect. You know, I'm mindful some people listening to this won't have, you know, will be unlucky and won't be able to have kids.

20:46But it is, I mean, I think... I also don't know if I can. You know, I'm 36. I like, we blame it on, that's the wrong way to put it, but typically we think it's the women's vote. Male infertility is a huge thing. It's a huge thing. It's a huge thing. And for years I was thinking, you know, is the problem me? I'll tell you what though, it's, I listened to what you were saying about all this with PJ just before Christmas. And I've got to say, I think you're right to, I think your analysis, which is, if you're going to do it, you've got to be so committed. And you've got to say almost like, I mean, maybe you should write it down.

21:16Maybe it's in a letter to Sophie or something or an email to yourself. I, Jamie Lang, want this because you are going to be tested like fuck, mate. And, you know, if you do... Give me more of that. Like, what do you mean? Oh, extreme sustained... It's not tiredness. I haven't slept for eight years, right? It's extreme sustained sleep deprivation. It's no longer about you. You're not the most important person anymore. Who gives a fuck what you think, frankly? It's like, does this baby need me now? Yes, and therefore you give up everything for that baby. You can't leave. And also you can't just leave it up to Sophie.

21:51you know and I hope it all works out for you guys you can't just be like someone says come to Paris for the weekend, no you can't someone says do you want to do this programme on BBC One with an audience of 8 million people no you can't, do you know why? because it involves 6 weeks away from my children, can't do that by the way, these are first world problems I get it, for sure I've turned down a lot of things that if I didn't have kids I would definitely have said yes to and it's hard because I've actually got this I mean I'm having a kind of Because you're also a workaholo Well I believe in work but I mean I'm a workaholo but I work harder at my relationships than I do in my career.

22:21And that's changed over time. Right. So like I, I have a annual plan. It's got about 150 things on it, but the top, like a hundred of the people in my life, including my mates. And like with each of them, I've got a little plan. My wife, I want to do this, this and this for her. I mean, you got to do that. It's so much more important. I really think there's two types of wealth. Okay. There's material wealth, which is money. Yeah. And when you're young, you're obsessed with it. And there's moral wealth, which is love. And I know so many super rich people. You've got all the material wealth in the world and don't have any moral love.

22:51And they sacrifice that moral wealth, that love for the pursuit of money. And as I get older, look, I do want more money. And you know what? I think it's fine to want more money. I'm going to earn that legally. You know, I respect so much someone like you. I've come here to the heart of, you know, jam-pot productions. And I think, my God, Jamie's built a business. That's incredible. The risks you must have taken. You've got to chat to investors. You've got to make that Friday night phone call when you want to be with your mates down the old Brompton Road. And someone says, actually, Jamie, why are you not delivering these returns?

23:18I've got so much respect for that but as you get older you realise what matters it sounds so tripe I don't care what matters is love and I think that one of the things about working hard is that you work really hard when you're young hopefully so that you don't have to work so hard later on I mean maybe you're at that kind of intersection but I'm at a stage where I want to work really hard but I know there's something more important than that and I am yeah I'm giving up things I'm sort of saying no to things that I really want to do

23:46Can we talk about your dad? Yeah man I'm a big believer of wearing your heart on your sleeve. Your relationship with your dad is so thick for you, right? In so many incredible ways. It's the story I told myself about myself. And when that story goes, you've got to tell yourself a new story. And that's really hard when you're 38, as I was when he died. My dad, the thing about it was that was so shocking. So I didn't think he was going to die. He was 76, annoying, had that slightly kind of elder sort of, tedious thing where he hated medicine and doctors and he had type 2 diabetes and out of nowhere he got pneumonia and he went in and he went into intensive care for five weeks and it was the worst five weeks of my life and at the end it looked like he was getting a bit better it was a time of omicron so he couldn't visit and that was the thing that was so hard about it and suddenly all of the crap for five weeks the infections he was getting the tubes the pipes his kidneys weren't working and it was all too much yeah he had a catastrophic heart attack and if i'm honest yeah that was three years ago last week it's still really really raw you know and um last Friday I went to the place in Chiswick in West London where I first came in this I was born in India and lived in Chiswick from the age of three to seven I went with my mum and we looked at his house and we talked about all the memories of being there and it was incredible and then I went back to Tooting and there's which is where my parents house is in South London and there's just a picture of my dad and he's smiling and there's something about that which I just it kills me man it kills me and you know my dad was you know I think we'd nowadays probably medicalize it and say he was depressed for years he was a downbeat guy an introvert but there's something about when someone is um your dad and they're a downbeat person and you have kind of private access to them smiling there's something about when they smile at you it's just so overwhelming and yeah I went to pieces And if I'm honest, it's a weird thing to know how blessed and how lucky you are.

25:47I've won the lottery so many times in my life and all the big things. I'm paid really well. I have a fantastic job and yet to feel in a bit of a funk. And I was so unprepared for grief. And I've been in such a pit of grief for such a long time. And one of the things I really want to do by talking about it is to tell other people that this is coming. Your parents are going to die, man. and it's going to be you think it's going to be bad it's going to be a million times worse than you think it's going to be and you have to get ready for it I don't think I'm prepared for that you can't prepare for it but the one thing you can do which I know you've talked about a bit is you can make sure that you minimize the regret and what do you mean by that?

26:27well you say the things you need to say a couple of years ago before my dad died I decided to go on a little walk with my dad and I asked him some really basic questions you know dad are you happy with how things have turned out? Do you feel like the sacrifices you and mum made in coming to this country? You know, he was 41, the age I am now, when he ripped himself away from kind of everything that was familiar and beloved. You know, do you feel it came out? And, you know, my dad didn't say, you know what, son, I'm proud of you. And it was absolutely justified. But he kind of intimated that. And I'm so glad I did that walk.

26:55And there are certain places I wanted to go with him. You know, I've got a son called Winston. Me and my dad were both very interested in Churchill. I really wanted to go to the house in Kent where Churchill spent most of his life with him. I didn't get to do that. And so if there are things that you want to do with your parents and you're lucky enough to have your parents around, you've got to do those things. They are top priority because, you know, it's the height of arrogance to think your parents will be around forever. But yeah, I've been in a complete funk really for three years. And people see you, don't they?

27:26They see you on University Challenge. They hear you on the Today program or on a podcast. They see he's a pretty upbeat guy. And what they don't see is that internally you're trying to write a new story. you're trying to kind of tell yourself that this is why you do it and you're trying to tell yourself what there is to live for in the absence of your dad and i don't mean by that that i've thought about ending my life and i've been suicidal and by the way when we talk about suicide you've got to be so careful because there's this thing called the copycat effect and you never talk about details but i have talked to myself and thought a huge amount in the last few years about death and i don't mean by that, that I ever, ever came close, even considered ending my own life.

28:13I've never been suicidal, never taken action of any kind. And if people listening to this right now are suicidal, they are thinking about it. They're thinking a bit obsessively about it. Please, please talk to someone because the damage you would do to all the people you love by doing something terrible is awful. And reach out to me, honestly, message me on whatever, Instagram, wherever, and I will talk to you about it because it's just so important to be honest. But I had, after my dad died, started thinking about death. And there was a very particular moment. I was presenting the Today program from Southampton, staying in some minor hotel, and I had to walk through the dark 3.45 in the morning.

28:47And I walked over a railway bridge. And I did just think, you know, if I died because a train hit me, I might be reunited with my dad. And so in all these kind of fundamental ways, grief is so profound, it changes you. Firstly, thank you so much for sharing that, dude. because I know how heavy it must be and all those things, but I think it is also released in certain ways. But when you talk about that moment when you're walking to the bridge and you're thinking, right, I could just do this because I can then be close to my dad. Are you scared to, because firstly, it's okay, right, to have those real dark thoughts.

29:23Are you scared to admit that to yourself or is that the actual truth? Well, my wife is so amazing. I spoke to her a lot about it. And, you know, when you've got kind of, you know, the useful distraction of four wonderful young children, you, I know in my heart, I'm never going to, I've got so much I want to do, man. I've got so, I've got, I've got such a zest for life. There's so much just experiences. So I would never have seriously thought about it. But, you know, when my dad died, I dreamt about him every single night for about eight or nine months. I would go to bed thinking I'm going to dream about my dad.

29:56I dream about my dad. It was always the same dream. I was there as a child in India with lots and lots of different trains. So I've got to think about Indian trains. And then I would wake up and I'd be like, oh, shit, he's dead. And, you know, the regularity with which, you know, it's amazing. The mind, the subconscious, the regularity with which I thought about him was scary, actually. And I wasn't getting over it. And I had some counseling and counseling is not for everyone. It didn't work for me. Why? because you just didn't want to... I think... I don't know. I mean, I had a good counsellor.

30:28There's nothing wrong with her. It was good. I just... I think you've got to be... I think there's just a certain amount of work that time has to do. You know, time is a healer. You know, if people listening to this are going through grief, I'd say, you've got to... There was a thing that Johnny Bairstow, the England cricketer, right? And I get all my moral tips from cricket players. Johnny Bairstow is an absolute legend. Amazing guy. His dad died by suicide when Johnny Bairstow was eight. he talked about how when you're going through grief, he said, you just got to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

30:55Just keep, just keep buggering on as Churchill said. And I sort of feel like people need to know that time will change things. It will soften the grief. It will change. It will stop being so raw. You know, you might suddenly go five hours of a day without thinking about that person. You might suddenly go to bed, wake up and not have dreamt about him. I remember the first time I woke up and thought, Oh my God, I've not dreamt about dad. I must be moving on. But also grief can come back from anywhere. It could be a little trigger. Like my dad was the only person I've ever met because he was an old Indian man who used a shoehorn.

31:25You know, when you could put, like to get, so you don't doubt, because he was so poor growing up. He thought if you get a pair of shoes from Marks and Spencer, it's like 25 pounds back in the days. Like you don't want to mess up the thing. So you use a shoehorn. And I went to his... That's such a beautiful image. Mate, his shoe, old Indian men of my dad's generation loved a shoehorn because they didn't want to, you know, they wanted the shoe to last. My dad was so proud of you got a shoe from Marks and Spencer. And like it lasted for like 15 years. And like, I mean, I feel ashamed. I can train us all the time.

31:53And so grief is like, it can come out from anywhere. And also grief is this weird thing in that it's completely universal. You're going to go through it and, you know, God, I hope we can talk when you do. But it's also particular, you know, every grief is a grief for a particular relationship. And so you can't prepare for it. But the thing that you've got to do, if you've got the relationship with your dad that I had, where my dad was kind of my story, you know, born into extreme poverty, gave up everything, came to this country, dreamt that his children would do well. And I wanted to make him proud.

32:26And when the person that you want to make proud is dead, you've got to work out why you get up in the morning. And I'm sort of doing that, you know, I'm actively doing it now. Partly coming here, talking to such an inspirational dude, it's all the same shit, you know, I'm trying to work out what it's all about. And I do know the answer, you know, I know about the meaning of life and I know why I live, but it's hard work. I think as guys, we have it quite a lot. And of course, women have. But I think I definitely fall into that sort of category where I'm a fixer. I try and fix things the whole time.

32:56And I think you probably do too. You could fix it. I'll do that. I'll sort that out. No, I'll do that. I can do that. I can do that, whatever. And when you can't fix something, that's very hard. And then when you're not distracting yourself and you're sitting in that place, which is grief, and you don't know how. And also, you can prepare yourself to do that leg spin ball. You can prepare yourself to be an editor. You can prepare yourself to be a broadcaster. You can prepare those things. and I think you prepare yourself into everything that you do. You listen to this podcast probably because when you were coming on it and you listened to it and things like that, you can't prepare yourself for grief.

33:24No. Because that's an emotion you can't understand until it happens. And also you can't work harder at it. With playing cricket or being a broadcaster or whatever, you can work really hard and that hard work, hard work gives you confidence. Grief is not like that. It's not something where you're like, do you know what, today, do you know what, it's Tuesday morning. I think what I'll do, I'll go and chat to Jamie and I work really hard at my grief. Hmm. He's like, no, no, you look at a shoehorn or a comb. My dad, it's such an irony. My dad, bald as anything, always combed his hair. Combed his hair at the side.

33:58It's like, it's not that much hair, especially at the top. It's like, why are you combing your hair, dude? It's like, you haven't got any hair. If you, I mean, or maybe you do, but that's a hell of a parting you've got there. You know, but you comb it down the side and who do you know that's got a haircut? I've never known anyone that's got a comb. And I went to his top drawer last week, last Friday. It was the third anniversary. I looked at this picture of him and I cried my fucking guts out. And I went to his room and there's a little kind of devotional prayer area, which we often have in Indian heritage.

34:27And I opened his drawer, which I've not dared to look at. And there was a shoehorn. And it killed me. And a comb. And I just remember thinking, why did he comb his hair? You know, he didn't have any hair. you know and I'm like yeah you can't you can't work at that man you can work at everything else you can work at building a company you can work at being a better conversationalist you can work at everything but yeah grief you just gotta let time do its thing I think did you say goodbye to him no and the thing that um one of the things that upsets me most is that you know you had this five weeks where yeah because it was covid and omicron and so many people who had ill relatives in that period, particularly elderly relatives will know, visiting times were like really screwed up.

35:14So you had to like book it in with this. There was this wonderful nurse who was like, just, she had like an iPad schedule and you'd get to talk to him on an iPad. And he, because he went into a coma, he never really came around. So he didn't really get to talk to him. And he moved to this other ward. And I remember saying to my son, watching some God awful TV. I remember saying to my son, by the way, granddad's getting better. And my son was on some, he was in a bit of a chat box and he was ranting about something and as i said this he just stopped and went yes and i'll tell you that meant so it meant so much to me man that really meant so much to me um because in that moment i knew that he had a relationship with my dad and um yeah just sucks that after that he didn't get to get to see him and the funeral itself um even more painful on the day he died.

36:05There's a famous poem called Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard, which I can do mostly verbatim. It's all about the kind of nobility and brilliance of the poor. And I can do it verbatim and I always wanted to make sure I delivered it without having to look at the notes. But on the day, I just went to complete pieces. And in a way, that was when I said goodbye, when I kind of read this poem to him. What is the poem? I'm getting like, this is... Oh, mate, the poem is Thomas Gray and at Stoke Poges in Buckinghamshire, which is in a churchyard. Thomas Gray, this is the mid 18th century, looks at all these gravestones and he basically does this long poem where he talks about how history shouldn't forget the bravery and the brilliance of these people.

36:52I mean, I could do it from the top, but one or two particularly important stanzas. He goes, let not ambition mock their useful toil, their homely joys and destiny obscure nor grandeur here with a disdainful smile the short and simple annals of the poor the boast of heraldry the pomp of power and all that beauty all that wealth ever gave await to like the inevitable hour the paths of glory lead but to the grave and there's a particular stanza where my dad the story of my dad's life which is why it's so ironic that i present university challenge so my dad was a genius he was like off the scale clever and but But my dad was sober.

37:30He was one of 11 children. He had six sisters and he was extraordinarily clever. He's the only one of the 11 that left India, but he couldn't pursue his academic ambitions because he had to get his sisters married. You know, this is 60s and 70s India. And so he asked his father if he could pursue further studies. His father slapped him around quite a bit and said, you've got to get your sisters married. But there's a very particular stanza, which is the most important to me, where he talked about chilled penury. because chill penury like extreme poverty um stopped him doing what he wanted and it stopped him pursuing knowledge with a capital k and there's a stanza in gray's elegy where he says but knowledge to their eyes her ample page rich with the spoils of time never did unroll chill penury repressed their noble rage and froze the genial current of the soul and that idea that one stanza combines the knowledge with a capital k and chill penury and you know i would have just loved to university challenge which i am so proud to do is about knowledge with a capital k and that pursuit of knowledge which brought him halfway across the world because he wanted his kids to get a great education um that's what university challenge embodies and so i feel that by presenting that program which i want you know work really hard at i want to do really well want to do for a long time if i'm lucky i feel like i kind of fulfilled some of his sacrifice and yet he wasn't there to see it and that sucks man thank you for sharing that dude honestly again yeah man mate thank you for bringing out you know i'm rambling man usually are you kidding me keep rambling are you kidding this is everything but but it's so it's beautiful right that that um firstly it's so beautiful that you have that relationship with your father like i would that man like are you kidding me for for so many years in my 20s i just to just ignore my parents and i was just a dickhead and i just you know i miss christmases because i wanted to do more fun things and i just didn't do anything and still got time man yeah i know but still got time you know yeah but but i but i now realize this family is just everything it's it's it's it's completely everything in so many beautiful ways and i think anyone listening just take note right because i i can't remember who we were chatting to but someone said life a little bit at the moment feels temporary at this age.

39:53Like my parents were invincible. Exactly. 10 years ago, they were invincible. They're like these enormous trees in a forest when you're growing up. They're huge. And then suddenly you're like, oh, they're going to go. Mate, your parents are going to. I know. And that for me, it feels temporary now for whatever reason.

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41:46You said you're not religious. No. But then that moment, going back to the moment on the bridge, thinking I'll be next to my father, that's sort of contradictory towards... Exactly. So I feel I understood in that moment. I'm from a Hindu family. My parents were pretty religious. They weren't sort of evangelical, but they're Hindus. And as I get older, I realize something different and profound, which is that I think that religion seems to answer enduring human needs in a way that secular traditions struggle to. And I think that those are about things bigger than ourselves. It's about the idea of kind of bowing down and showing piety in the face of these awesome forces.

42:26If there's anything that religion should teach us about being human, is that something fundamental about being human is that we love to believe so strongly in these massive, consoling narratives, these grand kind of fictions, these stories about things bigger than us. And we go to wars for them. We make sacrifices for them. We move across the world for them. And I, as a kind of, you know, modern, secular atheist, I kind of think maybe the religious imagination has got something on us. Yeah, but also I think that idea of hope is like, I don't know again if I'm religious, but you know, recently to get, to get a little bit is I, I've been kneeling at my bed and praying.

43:05Yeah. I'm not kidding you. What have you been praying for? Um, by the way, PJ, am I allowed to ask Jamie questions? Cause every time I, every time I ask him questions, he's like, don't do this flip. I do care about you, man. Ask me anything you want. You can ask me. Ask me. So why, why, why are you praying? Why am I praying? Good question. Why am I praying? Do you do it randomly or just sort of? I got into this whole process of just thanking I said it in my interview with Jemima I'm quite scared of my brain sometimes PJ sorry I'm scared of my brain sometimes because um my brain works in a way where it's it's it's like an engine going going going when it does go flat for whatever because it becomes tired or you know and I've had anxious periods in my life that have been pretty overwhelming um so I get scared it's going to go back there so I've been getting and as my workloads got higher, my responsibilities have got higher and needs have got higher.

43:59My brain is becoming more and more in that place. And so I, I probably pray that it's going to be okay in my head. Is it, is it prayer? Is it meditation? Cause taking a moment, it's prayer. It's not meditation. Meditation. I, I do, I try to do, and I do that. I used to, okay, I'll tell you, I used to, um, I used to try and man, I think I'm a natural manifestor. And I believe in manifestation in lots of ways. And I used to sort of ask for my podcast to do well, or my business to do well, or me to be more popular, or whatever it was, right? Real sort of like selfish needs. But what I realized I actually am seeking is just being content.

44:36And so now what I pray for is that my family and my friends, and I am just going to be happy and content. And that will also encompass everything else that I want, right? Because then you're just content. Can I invite you to the civil war in my head right now, which you've just started all over again, which is like, maybe you, it's not your achievement. Maybe you have a bigger and fuller life by being discontent. Maybe it's like the striving. Maybe it's like, maybe the, so I worry that, look at my life. It's amazing. I'm sorry. Look at me. I mean, I've won the lottery meeting my wife. I won the lottery meeting my mates.

45:16I won the lottery of each of my kids. I won the lottery four times. I've got amazing jobs. But I want to strive. I want to keep striving, man. I don't want to be content. No, sorry. So let me rephrase. I don't want to... I agree with you, by the way, massively. You want to grow, don't you? Totally. But I don't want to... If you want more money, you're never going to be satisfied. If you want more cars, if you want more women, men, whatever, you're never going to be satisfied. I think what I'm trying... And you do so much help for young kids. that sort of philanthropic attitude and doing more those kind of things.

45:52And that's kind of the space that I want to get into and be more content with where I am, but also still striving. I want to achieve a lot. But also it's okay. You know, I'm okay. I'm not, who am I trying to prove? Who am I trying to, you know, my dad loves me now, you know, not now he always has. So, you know, friends are good, family good, team are good. You know, it's good. So Have you straightened it out with your dad? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was on me, which I realize now. Which I've never said. So if I called you tomorrow and said, Jamie, I'm really sorry, but dad's got cancer and he's got three months to live, what would you do?

46:38Fuck, you got me. I would probably say to him, I have huge guilt towards my dad.

46:51Well, mate, you've still got time to fix things, you know? You've still got time to fix things. You know, you've won the lottery, right? Listening to you and seeing how you feel about it, like, it's obviously incredibly important. That guilt that you feel towards your dad is obviously a very big part of how you think about your relationship with him. Let me just, from my pocket, let me just take out this absolutely amazing gift I've got for you here it is I've got this gift look on the table it's called time with your dad yeah yeah yeah there it is you've got it you've got it most people don't have that time with their dad yeah you've got it yeah and the reason why I had that is because

47:34I sort of had a narrative and my look my parents got divorced and you've sort of come to understand that as you get older and I think that I Jesus Christ I've never spoken about this what the hell's going on well maybe he's going to listen to this and I hope he doesn't because yeah I don't know but I feel guilt because I blamed him for a lot it wasn't his fault maybe it was his fault it wasn't as much as I thought it was and you know I said things and yeah have you said sorry to him? no no I said I love him well why have you not said sorry to him?

48:10mate do it man If you think, hang on, it's got to be sincere. It's got to be. I'm so sorry because,

48:22because it would be admitting to myself that I was just a bit of an idiot for a long time. You just admitted it to me. I know, but it's easier. I don't know why. The fact that it's easier makes it even more important you do it to your dad. Listen, if you are, if you do feel guilt guilt and you feel you want to say sorry to your dad, what an amazing conversation to have. Like I tell you, mate, that thing where I said you've got three months to live. I'm afraid, how old is your dad? 74. Right. One of the things about grief and death is old age is like the sun in the solar system of old age, of diseases, right?

48:59If you're 74, you're going to get something at some point. I really hope he's around for 20 years. I hope he's fit, healthy. I hope there's no dementia outside. And he's brilliant. He's a... I didn't realize that was so deep in me. He is like a magical human. Before I spoke to you, I was interviewing you and he watched you last night. He was watching you and he said that he was just proud. Yeah. We should call him. I won't ask you to do that when you're crying. Do you want me to call him at some point? I don't think I could do that. I think maybe there's a conversation. I didn't realize that was in me.

49:36All the therapy I've done, what the hell's going on? never let that out that's crazy I think there's maybe a conversation that you and your dad want to have at some point mate what a beautiful thing I think it's a wonderful yeah how how what a I mean mate you've just won the lottery because you've realised that well you've still got the chance to do something about it yeah yeah which is it's a beautiful thing mate he could get he could get a heart attack like that today he's 74 my grandfather died around sort of similar age well what a spur to action what an amazing amazing thing how's your relationship with your mum my relationship I see her on Instagram She's great She's fine And she's a bulldog And she's like You know She's just strong And she'll live to 200 I think Like honestly she's fine But it's I think what happens When parents get divorced Like this is my experience Is As kids you're confused And so you probably Blame an individual When you It takes two to tango Yeah yeah of course I was very much A mummy's boy right And so you lean Towards the mum's side And then as you get older You go fuck you know To blame a parent When you don't understand it.

50:37And you don't, and my dad has never, my dad has never spoken any ill about my mom or ever. What a hero. Never. I bet there's a moment. I got it. It'd be so wonderful to talk to him about it. I bet there's a moment. Jesus, I want to speak this. I bet there's a moment when he just, I mean, if that's the case, what you say is true, as I'm sure it is. He would have made that decision at a time when he was hurting. I I mean, I've never met your dad, but I tell you what, he's got a moral depth to him there. That's immediate and obvious. And I just think, what a thing, man. I mean, what a thing. Anyone listening to this, if you've got the chance to chat to your parents before they go about the stuff that matters, do it.

51:23Because I tell you, I mean, you said this. You said this in your chat with PJ towards the end when you were talking about how it's like it was with the girl that you didn't kiss. And then you were like, I should have just kissed her. I should have just kissed her because the regret later, what happened? You didn't kiss her. I didn't kiss her. And then it was my... You told yourself, she's like, what are you doing? I'm just going to kiss her. So ever since then, you've been lunging. It's my metaphor for life though, right? It's my metaphor for life. Like, and I've always lived by this, is that the regret I felt by not kissing her, I was like, what was I feeling?

51:58I was feeling rejection, failure, all these different things. And it would have been over with it. And who would have kept? So I thought, well, I'm never going to, I'm never, I don't want to ever regret something I've never done. So I'm going to go and try and do everything. Well, the conversation with your dad is like a billion times more important than not kissing that girl. By the way, I feel sorry for her, man. She missed out on a kiss from Jamie Lagg. A young Jamie was ready to smooch over. And they'd be queuing up for that now, as you know.

52:27I didn't even realize that was within me, really. and when you, you're a true broadcaster in so many ways and you understand people and you're empathetic and you get it. You've been with a lot of people. I mean, Bill Gates, Djokovic, Philip Schofield, you know, in difficult times. No, but in difficult times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In difficult times. Oh man, there's a few stories behind that. You know what I mean? In difficult times. But being so empathetic and being so understanding, but then do you have to wear that hat of a journalist when you have to ask those questions? because knowing you and like I do, that would be hard for you to do.

53:03Yeah, and it's for some people, it's like to ask the aggressive question comes more naturally. But one role of journalism is to apply scrutiny and that's incredibly important and the more powerful the person, the more you've got to do that and that's a cool thing that journalists do and doing it in difficult circumstances. So when Philip Schofield walked in, right? So that interview, oh man, it was at this hotel. He walked in. I've never met him before. He is shaking like a leaf doesn't even capture it. By the way, he is rake thin, rake thin, like, like beyond gaunt. His daughter is with him. He's got bruised calloused hands from where he's holding his vape so hard.

53:46And he comes and sits down and he just starts shaking. He just starts shaking. He's just like shaking, shaking, shaking, shaking, shaking. I'm like, God, I'm not sure we can do this guys. And then, you know, he kind of calms down a little bit. and I try and put him at ease. But, you know, I had to ask him some really hard questions and I wanted to ask him if he was toxic. So there's one point where we're talking about, you know, suicide and other very heavy things. And I said to him, are you toxic? And afterwards he was like, God, you're tough, aren't you? And I thought I've got to be seen to ask the difficult questions and I've got to be seen to be empathetic.

54:21And it's quite a difficult thing to do both at the same time, but that's the job and you've got to do it. That was a crazy experience. Can I tell you what happened with Djokovic? Apparently he's more intense than... He's the most intense person you've ever met. He is the best there has ever been at the thing he does. The intensity of his gaze, it's like a beam. And when it clocks onto you, he doesn't blink and he's in the zone. And he said to me afterwards, he kind of apologised, he said, I'm sorry, I was nervous, I treated it like a woman to find out. And he turns on the charm, he's a guy who speaks six languages.

54:53And I had to ask him some really, really tough questions. But the crazy thing is I did it in a state of complete emotional disrepair because just a few days before it'd been my dad's funeral and I was in pieces all the way over to Belgrade. I was thinking, I'm feeling anxious as hell, man. I'm feeling really anxious. And I've had this thing in my life, you know, I've, I've get panic attacks to do with claustrophobia and, um, I've had a few major claustrophobic panic attacks. and I do associate them a bit with hotel rooms. And all the way over there on the flight, I'm getting more and more and more and more anxious.

55:28And do you know what I did? I saw the team and I had a few drinks because I was so anxious. And it's a 6 a.m. call. So we have to be at the hotel at 6 a.m. the next morning and I just lost it completely. And we're at a hotel, which is at the top of a shopping mall in central Belgrade. And I'm having a full-on panic, losing my rag. And I will never forget in the bar, in the room, there's like this kind of little Serbian, like peach snaps sort of thing, like brandy thing. And I had, it was probably got three shots in it. And I had that and I was desperately waiting for it to make me feel better.

56:08And I didn't, I had a, oh my God, it didn't. And I was just going crazier and crazier and crazier to try and calm down. I went for a walk. I'm wandering around a Serbian shopping mall. in Belgrade, in my dressing gown, absolutely drunk. And the thing that cracked for me is the amazing, so I worked with this incredible producer, Elizabeth Needham Bennett, the best producer in the history of BBC News. And she just told me to fix up. And she said, go to your bedroom, sleep, you're going to be fine. And do you know what? If you don't sleep, you're also going to be fine. And something about that, she's such an amazing person.

56:41Something about that gave me the confidence to let go. I did sleep. I felt completely, obviously, sober. A bit jittery about my dad, but completely sober when we did it. And it happened. But I mean, it's amazing to think if you'd have seen me a few hours before, you'd have thought that is not a leading BBC broadcaster fit to do this interview. It's wonderful. Who is the hardest person you've had to interview? Richard Branson was pretty tough. Why? Because I had to ask him some pretty awkward questions, but that was difficult. And you know, when you're doing an interview and you're building up to the really difficult questions.

57:13Yeah. You're just thinking about that the whole way through. I'm just thinking about the whole way through. I'm talking about this, that, and the other. And all the way, God, I'm going to have to ask if he's this, that, and the other. And then I'd say, by the way, on your tax affairs. Oh my God. That was, oh, that was, that was tough. But the thing that's great about interviews is people will surprise you. I mean, I had to ask Bill Gates some really tough things about affairs and about, you know, staff and all that. But people surprise you. Greta Thunberg, people think Greta Thunberg is this really severe, intense 19 year old.

57:38We just had a giggle. She's so funny. She's so funny. I mean, it's, you know, she's complicated and I'm sure a lot's going on and she's got Asperger's. But yeah, I love the interviews that surprise you. That's the really fun stuff. For me, this has been, I mean, you saw my emotion. Like, this has been, I knew it was going to be, I said to the team, I said how good it was going to be. And it's just, yeah, it's been amazing. I swear on my life, I'm not saying, I promise you, I swear I knew it would be amazing. I've got one, just one. I've got eight questions for you. I'm going to do it so fast. Don't you just love proving people wrong who thought you were just a posh prick?

58:16A little bit, yeah. when I first saw you and Spencer on screen yeah I thought you must be the emptiest fucking vessels this side of Chelsea Pier but I probably was no I wasn't and I'd say hand on heart and I'm not just saying because I'm here and you can feel free to cut this out the more I found out about you and Spencer I mean this is Spencer by the way a guy who runs through deserts you know I mean ridiculous the more I found out about what you've done businesses you've built things you've done for people the reputation you have for the kindness you show I think you are just so far from the empty vessel made in Chelsea and if I'd never met you I would have thought you were that idiot and I was just like you are so impressive and it's like I feel like maybe your career is a bit of a kind of this thing launched you into the world and now you're proving to everyone that you aren't what you were then anyway I think if you take a shortcut in life there's always a long road around and that's what I've realised I think anyone who's looking for a shortcut you always have a burden afterwards so I took that shortcut into the entertainment industry that I wanted to be in, but then you have to work your way around it and I think it takes 10 years to build something.

59:20So it's taken me 10 years. 10 years. Yeah, I think it takes 10 years. Okay, I've got eight questions for you. Ready for this? Born ready, mate. What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? Can I get a rewind? Any version of kind of, any version of rewind, yeah. You know, pull up the tune, pull up the tune. If it's nice, play it twice. If you're in the dance, when someone says, rewind the tune, that's when you're having a good time. Rewind. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? Oh, God. The deep and meaningful one is my dad's saying he's proud of me. My mum's saying they're proud of me.

59:54Do you know the absolute honest answer is that when The Independent shut, I was the last editor, the print version of The Independent, and a couple of the old guys who'd been around since the 1980s said to me that I was the best editor they'd ever worked for. They'd worked for all of them. And that mattered to me a lot, partly because the occasion was very sad. Hundreds of people losing their jobs. and I felt really awful about what they were all going through. And that made me feel like I'd been good to them and a decent editor. But also, I was 29 when I got the job. So the fact that people who are in their 60s or 70s, I think, thought that I was up to it made me feel a sense of vindication.

1:00:28That's amazing. What scares you most about yourself? The idea that I preferred being young. The idea that I preferred being young and fantasizing about the future than actually living that future out. Wow. Wow, that's great Deep That is unbelievable You pulled it from the recesses of my mind You pulled that out That's unbelievable I'm similar to that When was the last time you cried and why? Oh, last Friday Last Friday was the third anniversary Of my dear dad's death And I was building up to it all day But that damn picture of him Smiling in that beautiful way of his In my parents' house in Tooting And I just lost it I completely and utterly lost it And yeah, it kind of felt good too what's something you can't let go of youth what's your guilty pleasure you know if you're lucky enough to go to holiday in France and you go to the local bakery and they do a pain au chocolat which is hot right yeah this is disgusting I cut the pain au chocolat in half yeah and I turn it on its side so the chocolatey bits are kind of facing the sky yeah and then I pour marmalade in so that you've got the kind of chocolate chocolate's not good enough chocolate's not good chocolate orange is obviously the superiors like tomato orange chocolate orange is the ultimate like Terry's chocolate orange chocolate orange is the ultimate I mean I was at years years as a restaurant so I pour the marmalade in over the melting chocolate with a hot buttery thing and I am look I mean I know obviously you present this very attractive guy I'm a disgusting eater I try and fit as much food in my mouth as possible so what I do is I do that with a pan de chocolat with marmalade dripping through and I try and get as

1:02:08and I slather it all over myself like the old massive jaffa cake massive jaffa cake I love a jaffa cake what turns you off? I hate so profoundly people that bully the so-called little people I judge people you know there's a I'm swearing too much but there's a phrase you know people who suck up and fuck down I judge I'm very kind of moralistic as you can probably tell and I really respect people who are kind and generous to people who have no power over them So people who kind of bully the little people and make an example of them, they're out. I'm with you. They are cancelled by me. Aggressive.

1:02:42I despise that. I'm so with you. I despise bullying, but especially to watch people who are powerless getting bullied by, I just can't bear it. I'm so with you. What turns you on? Well, the flip side of that is definitely people who are kind to people who need nothing from them. I worked for a couple of years on a Channel 5 program called The Right Stuff, and they'd send me off to the red carpet occasionally weekday nights. and I did it I don't know what the film was Barry McGuigan the boxer amazing guy was on the red carpet it must have been a film about boxing whatever and do you know what he could see that I was on my own and no one was talking to me and he just wandered up to me he said you alright and he had I was like 23 I had nothing I was just a prick on the red carpet and I respect that so much man and if I met Barry if you're listening now I would search up dinner is on me I learnt a lesson I respect so much people who are kind to people who have nothing on them.

1:03:37That turns me on big time. What do you like most about yourself? My looks, my physique, my smell. No, I like, you know, I like my, I'm proud of my generosity. If you ask the 30 people who know me best, like a kind of defining character, say Moley, my mates call me Moley. Moley's the most generous person we know. I think they'd all say that. It's a great one. I believe in it. I'm that's my thing I'm very generous PJ said you're very kind okay final one your favourite swear word favourite swear word I should see you next Tuesday am I allowed to you can say it can I say it here you can say it yeah it feels not it's too much can I say it yeah go on cunt there we go yeah yeah it feels so good it's such a beautiful thing what a word I know it packs so much in and it's that oh god sorry sorry mum oh dear I better not let my mum know I did this.

1:04:34My mum is going to hate the fact that I said that, man. Can I just say, man, this has been more than fantastic. I knew it was going to be good, as I said before, but I didn't, I got to places I didn't think I was going to go. I feel like we went, but that's just, every single thing about this, and to be a bit cheesy is great company. So I really appreciate it, man. It's an honor to be here, man. Do you know what is the most fun thing? I love getting to know you a bit better. And I like, I like, as I said, I like surprising people. and I probably 15 years ago I mean not for a lot I probably 15 years ago looked at you and Spencer and thought those guys look like they're having a good time and now I get to know you and I think what an amazing guy building a business known for being kind and he's great company thanks man I really appreciate it thanks brother oh man that was oh that's so good oh mate sorry to make you cry man I sure want to do that yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah Okay, wow.

1:05:33Wow. That went into places I don't know even if you expected them to go. I didn't realise that, yeah. You had a lot in you. A lot in me. That was amazing. Thanks for sharing that. Oh, well, it's because the space is in a great space to do that. Yeah, I mean, it was a lot. He's just a great guy. He's a great guy. I also, I think all of our crew all shared a tear. Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Wow. I definitely did and I know Riley also has shed a little tear afterwards as well yeah there's something about I don't know something about I suppose if I'm talking from a male point of view men talking about dads and men and father son relationship father son relationship there's something there just shout out to all parents because yeah you guys are legends and hopefully one day I'll get to experience that situation as well but we really hope you enjoyed this episode well produced Jemima thank you as always so after the recording yeah straight away Amol actually emailed me also can we just say I love how much he loves calling me PJ he's such a big fan of the show I love that but Amol emailed me and was like I'm really sorry for making Jamie cry and I was like are you kidding it's great we love it we like that Jamie loves it yeah it's yeah I love it are you kidding me but he's honestly such a lovely lovely man yeah he's a really great guy he's everything we wanted him to be He's a great guy.

1:06:59Amal, if you're listening, and I hope you are, thank you for just being epic. Yeah, and next time, I will interview you. Pete will interview you, although I'd be scared. I think you'd be amazing interviewing him, and you should do that. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in again. As always, please subscribe to the show. It does some amazing things for us. And not only that, you can check us out on social media at Great Company Podcast. We're on TikTok, Instagram, and of course, we're on YouTube as well where you can watch all of these interviews. We hope you enjoyed the episode, and we can't wait to see you next week for another one.

1:07:25So until then. Great company. Until then, we'll see you for another episode. We just end up saying, oh, at all. Another episode of Great Company.

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