CAT BURNS: AUTISM MADE ME FEEL I WAS DOING LIFE WRONG

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2:17Hello everyone, my name is Jamie Lang and this is Great Company

2:26Hello producer Jemima Hello Jamie Lang Well how are you today? I'm very well, I'm very excited for our guest I'm very very excited for our guest Just quickly update on your life, how's things going? How's things going? Yeah things are going fine, things are ticking along we've launched a new ooh we should mention this we should mention this we've launched a new show it's been out for a few weeks we have so under Jampot our amazing team here at Jampot which obviously Jemima is at the forefront of we have launched a brand new show with Paloma Faith which I feel like you're a little bit of a Judas you're not at all you're not at all because that was our plan that was the plan Jemima is now also working on a Paloma Faith show yes which is called Mad Sad and Bad and you can take it from here and tell us about it.

3:11Oh my gosh, it's so good. So first and foremost, Paloma is so wonderful. She's never interviewed before but a real natural. And we've got loads of really cool guests in and she is asking them about a time that they were mad, they were sad and they were bad. And what I love about it is those words people can take to mean in such different ways. Like mad could be angry, mad could be insane, mad could just be like different. Like people might have just called you mad and you're like, I don't think I was being mad. I love that. Yeah. Fun, right? Very fun. Listen, I'm sure lots of people have come to the episode to listen to Kat Burns because you've seen the title, you want to hear from us.

3:45So we're about to get into it now. Now, Kat Burns is an amazing guest. Kat is an incredible musician, artist. I actually introduced her on stage at BBC Radio 1 Festival, which was in Luton last year. It was incredible. Are you going to ask her if she remembers? I'm going to ask her if she remembers. What happened? Did you say hello? Well, she was preparing to get ready and I tried to talk to her and she was just like obviously trying to get... trying to get in the zone trying to get in the zone read the room man read the room but she is an amazing artist she's neurodiverse yeah which is going to be very interesting to talk about as are you as am I I have ADHD and I'm just fascinated to hear about her life where she's come from she's you know she's so young but achieved so much and that's what's so amazing so I'm really excited for it yeah she just like she's so she's young but she's so mature like she really seems to know herself yeah she's amazing like when listening to like her lyrics and things.

4:39So, yeah, I'm really excited to have her in. If you haven't already, please let us know what you think of the show. You can slide into our DMs at Great Company Podcast on Instagram. We're also on TikTok and you can check out our YouTube channel as well, Great Company. And you can send us an email, greatcompany at jamppoproductions.co.uk. Are you ready for this? I am very ready. Here we go. Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Kat Burns. Hi, I'm Kat Burns and I'm Great Company. I don't think we've had, we haven't had a bad one yet. Have you not? Not yet. Wow. So this is the challenge. This is the challenge today.

5:19Do you ever get nervous about podcasting or go on stage or anything like that? I get nervous for any sort of social interaction outside of singing. So if I'm on stage, I'm like fine. But I'll be thinking about, oh my God, who's going to be in my dressing room after the show that I'm going to have to speak to that I don't know, that I'm going to have to do some small talk with that I don't want to do. But hang on a second, podcasting is just small talk. No, it's not. You can get deep. Okay. You can find a way to get deep. That's so interesting. Yeah, I'm an ADHD autistic girl. I need deep conversation.

5:57I'm like that. Do you have ADHD? I have ADHD, yeah, but I didn't really relate it to that. Yeah, I can't do the small talk. That's why I struggle in like events because most of the time everyone's sort of looking through each other, not really having actual conversations. It's just sort of like, are you all right? And then just you can't really get to the nitty gritty of anything. So I end up just not really saying anything because I'm like, well, there's no point me opening my mouth and saying anything because nobody's trying to have a proper conversation here. But explain that to me deeper because what you feel the lack of connection, you feel that that small talk isn't where you're going to connect or more you with small talk in those social situations, you don't know, you freeze almost, you don't really know what to say.

6:43I have absolutely no idea what to say after. Hey, how are you? I just sort of go. Come on, let's do it. Let's try it together. Ready? So we'd pretend we're at an event. Here we can do some role play. Okay. All right, then. Sorry, I'm by the way, and I'm your therapist. All right, all right. This is my idea of hell on earth. Okay, we're going to try it, right? Because the way to get through things is exposing yourself. All right. Okay, here we go, Rui. I'm sweating. That's just really nervous. Okay. Oh, my God. Okay, I'm ready. All right, let's go. I'm ready. I meant to make our guests really comfortable, but what I've done is just pushed you further, more uncomfortable.

7:19By the way, I'm just going to make you more uncomfortable. Okay, I can do it. I can do it. I'm literally 24. I need to know how to speak. Okay, you ready? Hey, are you Kat Burns? I am, yeah.

7:37I am, yeah. Hello. Hey, so I love your music. I love what you do. Do you like what you do? Yeah. See, it was good. There we go. That wasn't good at all. That was quite good. I learnt though. Okay, yeah. I had a friend and she said, if you ever meet somebody and they tell you they like your music, just have a little script and just say, oh, thank you. What's your name? Said person will tell me their name. I'll instantly forget because I cannot remember someone's name after about the fifth time. I'll remember your name. So I usually go, thank you so much. What's your name? Have a nice day. In that order, that's what.

8:22If they say other things that fall out of that script for me, then I'll just sort of go amazing. But then fine. One of them I said to you said, hey, I'm Jamie. You do music. I love that. What do you think the meaning of life is? Oh, that's fab. But see, that is mad. That to me is absolutely fabulous. I love it. Okay, so this is brilliant. So the small talk, hey, how are you? Which most individuals, I suppose, that meaningless conversation, right? which is like fluff. That's quite tricky. But actually, if I was to say to you, what's the meaning of life? Or do you believe in God? Or what is really love?

9:03You'd be straight in there. Yeah, that to me is just like, oh, we're about to have a really beautiful conversation, which is why I think people mistake. A lot of neurodivergent people always get told that they're flirting when really I'm just looking at you and asking you a deeper question and care about what you're saying to me, rather than just being like, oh, la, la, la, la, la, I actually want to know. Or usually, like, I'll ask a really deep question to someone, make them contemplate their whole existence, and then just frolic away into the distance. Kat, you've just honestly opened up a whole light for me about my life.

9:39That's what I do. No, but I'm not even kidding you. This is exactly what I'm like. So just a little, by the way, this podcast, you can interview me. I will. Okay, good. This is about me now. So I, growing up, hectic kid, right? All those different things. Got sort of diagnosed in a way with ADHD. Kind of forgot it. Recently got re-diagnosed because I wanted to understand it a little bit more. What do you mean you got re-diagnosed? Well, I went to, when I was younger, I went to a doctor who sort of said, yes, you have ADHD. But it wasn't a thorough check. Recently, I went ahead of a thorough check.

10:14Okay. And the sort of idea I got back was you're off the scale type thing. Oh, gosh. Yeah, and I was like, okay, brilliant. What do I do with that? They offered medication. I said, I don't want to take medication because I've been 36 years without it. But what you're saying is that it's so interesting because I love going deep with people. It does something to my body, to my heart, to my endorphins, to something. I don't know what it is. And you're saying exactly the same thing, but we're saying that's an ADHD thing. It is. I think it's just like a desire to have, like I just, I really, as much as people scare me, I do also love them and I want to connect with people.

10:52And even if I am never going to see that person again, I would love for every interaction I have with someone to be meaningful or not have the interaction really at all. I just find it hard. I don't like the fluff, which is why my mum will always be like, you're really nosy. I'll meet someone new and I'll come home and I'll be like, yeah, so they told me this, this, this, this, this, and all their childhood trauma. And she'll be like, how did you find that out? And I'm like, I just asked because I wanted to know. I love that. Thank you. No, it's amazing. And I think that's so important. I love the fact that you want to connect with people.

11:24The reason I started this podcast is because it was about connection. Yeah. And I feel like in a world where we're losing that connection because of devices and social media and stuff like that, it was about reconnecting in that space. Yeah, because you never know what you're going to end up speaking about. Do you find it easier to connect with strangers or people close to you? People close to me. Really? I sometimes find it easier to connect with strangers. I can be more vulnerable sometimes with strangers. That's why with the podcast, I can be more vulnerable for some reason. If it's a friend coming on the podcast, I find it harder to be vulnerable.

11:56Really? Yeah, it's a weird one. I think because I, if you're a close friend of mine, we would have unlocked different levels of the friendship. We would have spoken about really deep things and you would have experienced a level of my life with me. Whereas a stranger, actually, what the hell am I talking about? I'm such an oversharer with anyone actually if you ask me the right question I'll tell you my whole life story and every sort of single trauma I've ever had in my life and be completely fine with doing that so actually I I can open up to anyone actually I can open up to my friends and or a stranger so I told you a lie Do you ever get regret from oversharing?

12:36Only if that person didn't overshare back If I like meet someone if I like meet someone new and they like ask me a question and like I've told them every single like thing that's happened to me in my life and then they just kind of go oh okay and then the interaction's over then I'm like hold on now that person just knows everything about me and they didn't share one thing I don't I find people like that really scary you feel so used yeah i feel like you know now so much about me i just find people that don't share things scary yeah same i find it really frightening like i just honestly i feel like i'm not i'm not just saying i feel like it's so connected on you on this like so connected the reason why i i have this other podcast where i just share everything because i'm like i have nothing to hide i don't i don't care about what what you think of me i do care about because i'm people please and i know you have that as well recovering recovering same i'm i think we're always going to be recovering yes but actually i also don't mind what i share i don't mind what i share because i like you i think we're good people we have a good heart and we're after good things so sharing the ups the downs the left and the rights of life is a beautiful thing but i arguably i think that might be because to a certain degree you've done the work on that not you're not carrying any shame with any of the things that have happened to you or that have occurred in your life because I think if something is like cause like if I had a super traumatic moment in my life or so many experiences that I really struggled to speak about I might just never want to share them because I haven't yet unpacked it properly within myself whereas I'm able to talk about next to anything because I've already unpacked it which is why sometimes it can seem emotionless when I speak about it because I'm just like yeah so this happened to me and people like what and I'm like yeah but I think because I've done the work already and I'm like yeah this happened I've carried the guilt or the shame with it and then I've let it go and I've done the work on myself to forgive myself for everything that's happened I'm I'm happy to share because it doesn't define me is there a is there an area that there is a no-go zone area for you?

15:03To be honest with you, no. It's just mainly like I think as an artist, some things are good to just be left as ambiguity. Explain that. What do you mean? I just think I'm so much of an oversharer, so sometimes my team will be like, you don't have to share. People don't need to know that about you, whereas I would just yap away. so I think I think especially with social media there's this idea especially with musicians now where fans want to know everything about artists whereas back in the day that wasn't the case it was the music so sometimes I have to just remind myself like what I'm doing is I'm an artist I want to share what I love and that's the music and talk about things that I want to talk about that I feel like is relevant to the music that I make but then there are some things that people don't need to know you know is there a way do you think that as a as an artist you almost don't want to share too much because if you share too much then the mystery is kind of taken away but also is there an advantage for sharing everything because then there is no mystery and then your fan base feel much closer to you is there a fine line that you shouldn't cross yeah I think that I think that I found the balance is um the songs itself I'm very vulnerable and honest in the songs that I make so then people feel like they know me through my songs and then what I decide to share online will be just general random thoughts I have about life that other people seem to have too which will make people feel even more connected to me but then I just think there's certain aspects of my life that I've learned over time don't need to be shared because then people's opinions can form their way in and and evil eye exists you know people people could be wishing bad on you whereas if you don't share the certain elements then no one can wish bad on what they don't know like what are we talking what have you shared that you were just I don't know, Jamie.

17:15Just like, there are people that wish bad on people. No, there's not. There are. Yeah, there's not. There are people sitting at home going, I don't want that person to succeed. And I don't want to give them any reason to do that. Why would anyone want to wish bad on you in any way? There's no ways. No, because in school, I generally got along with everyone. Most people liked me. There would be just a select few that decided they didn't like me for whatever reason. And I would sense it. I would walk in and go, I know they don't like me. And I would really like them too. But I don't know what I could do to make them like me.

17:51They just didn't like me. They didn't like my nature. And those ones were the ones that I knew would wish bad on me. I knew it. When I applied for Brit school, they said, what? You think you're really going to get in there? I thought, maybe. No, I was just doing it for fun. Maybe. I don't know. I know that they're wishing bad upon me. So I don't give them a reason to. I believe it. We're all connected. I thought I was going to get in. Imagine I didn't. No, exactly. Imagine I didn't get in. Luckily I did, but I knew they were wishing I didn't. How did you know that these people at school didn't like you?

18:27You just feel the vibe? I can just tell. I can just tell. I'm a massive observer. Okay. As much as I'm an oversharer and a yapper, in depending on the situation i'm also a massive people watcher and before i yap i observe the environment i'm in to make sure um i'm it's safe enough and i just like to know like who i'm dealing with and like what their mannerisms are so if i i can walk into a space and i can just sense by the person's energy how they're looking at me when they think i'm not looking and just like certain vibes that they give off i'm like you don't really like me really yeah that can be a dangerous thing as well right because that it's exhausting in some ways because you're constantly analyzing situations the whole time and seeing where you stand and how you feel and what's going on there oh yeah i think my i think again i think that is also down to having adhd and autism and finding people generally confusing and wanting to understand them in the deepest way possible so when I go into spaces I'm just always on high alert because I'm just very like aware of how I'm like I'm very conscious of being perceived so I'm like I'm just aware of everything and then I'm perceiving other people because I'm like what are they it's a it's a it's a whole thing

19:59Was it easy for you to make friends growing up?

20:05People around me would probably say yes. They would be like, if I said no. Because I would say you're such easy company. Thank you. No, but I'm being completely honest not to try and butter you up. I would say it's very easy company for me. Thank you. I don't know how it is for you, but for me it is. And I imagine that's probably what you're saying there, is that for you people would say yeah but for you it felt more it feels more of an effort because they don't know internally what's going on yes yes in a non-cocky annoying way people like me but I as I got older I was like but do I like them do I enjoy the conversation that I'm having I think so and so much of being a people pleaser as well is like everything it's everything to do with other people and I'm always trying to make sure other people feel safe and comfortable to speak to me and because I guess growing up I never felt that safety within myself so I wanted to always make everyone feel safe around me so then it's not until I've gotten older where I'm like okay this person likes me even with dating it might be oh this person likes me but do I actually do I like them in school I particularly would make it my mission if there was a quiet person to befriend said quiet person because I was just like they're probably the funniest in the room because they're the ones that like say things under their breath that no one else hears but i will and i just was like i want to befriend the quiet people um i just wanted to be i just wanted to be friends with everyone but i was a bit of a floater that's amazing that you had that you had that sense of caring and empathy in your life your dad wasn't around well no I mean like not really So what was the relationship there?

21:52Because your mum's your kind of rock I imagine right? She's my queen She's the queen of my existence I didn't have the best relationship with my dad And he passed away four years ago Christmas Day Which is why I think Slightly a tangent But still within topic I think people who experience grief Are one of the most loving people like one of the most loving people you could meet because we know the the fragility of life and how important it is to love people when they're there um and it's a sad club to be a part of but the it's a beautiful one as well because you've we've learned the price we pay for love um but but it's nice because my mum I can do random things my mum will be like you know your dad did that exact same thing like town to how i moisturize my face or like i can personify anything i could i could do anything like i've got my imagination is so like what do you mean you could personify like it like i could like i could just it like i could be driving and a random pedestrian just like crosses the street i'll give them a random name i've given them a backstory i'll be like why have you done that janine why what what's your problem or like i can just really i can personify any, I can build a story You can build a world around anything and anyone Exactly, and that's something that he would do and he was always the life and soul of the, he would be the one giving advice to everybody and doing all of these things but he wasn't able to provide that to his family How old were you when he wasn't around?

23:34They split up when I was seven and divorced when I was nine. Same thing, my parents divorced when I was around Yeah, split up, seven, eight, divorced. Yeah. It's a tricky time. As an individual, not just the divorce time, obviously that's tricky, but in terms of growth, it's a real sort of precious time, I think, because you're still in that stage where I found that it's like parents are everything. And then suddenly that separates. You're a bit like, well, the world's pretty scary because what's happening here? And you don't really understand it as well. So I didn't process it very well. Right.

24:08Interesting. I really didn't process it at all well. I think the difference there is I was happy. I was like, oh, thank God. It could just be me, my mum and my sister. We can just frolic around. This is vibes. Wow. Yeah, I was like, the vibes in this house are not good. So once he was gone, I was like, oh, yes. It's the truth. Yeah, I mean, that's an amazing truth. Yeah, I was like, yeah. I mean, naturally. But explain that to you. What were the vibes in the house before? It just wasn't, it wasn't a good environment. I think, I think. Hostel? Anything like that? Yeah, I think he was just, again, as an adult, and once I've unpacked it in therapy, I just think he's probably, well, neurodivergency is paternal.

24:51So he most probably had ADHD and or autism. And I think he just had a lot of sensory overload. He wasn't able to regulate his emotions that well. And I think when you're in the household receiving that, that can make you, well, that's what made me quite an anxious child. So then when he was out, I was like, thank goodness. And then as I got older, you know, you unpack, you develop, you know, you start to seek connection. And I think I was really boy crazy when I was a teen, which is crazy because I am a gigantic lesbian. But I was really boy crazy when I was a teenager. and even now thinking about it's probably because I was trying to seek some like a male love um and then as I got older and you know lockdown happened and you unpack things I was like I've got males in my life that I love I've always had boy best friends throughout my life so I'm like I've got the males in my life that I love I've got I've got that I don't actually like any of these I don't like them I don't fancy them I don't want to be with them um and then when he passed away it was that was when the real growth happened because it was like you can place blame and put anger on a person whilst they're still alive but when they're not it's just like you're smacking something at the wall when it comes straight back at you totally and that's dangerous yeah exactly so I had to really unpack and forgive myself and forgive him and lots of active imagination where I just kind of close my eyes and think about my past and reassure in a child stuff and like really do the work okay i don't want to get i don't want to get too if i'm going too far please push back and i'm an oversharer fine and i want to be respectful as well but but so the but what i'm gauging is that perhaps your your father that the household wasn't a pleasant household to be living in maybe anger and aggression and things like that or yeah but again after doing the work i might you just probably really undiagnosed neurodivergent and it doesn't justify it but I think when you have context and once you've forgiven someone and yourself it's easier to look back and be like yeah you were just probably really unregulated um didn't know how to deal with your own emotions and took that out on the people closest to you who are in close proximity to you um and I learned from that time from my childhood when I think back to it I'm like as much as my dad wasn't great I'm like but I also had a mum who was really great and I've started just taking control of my brain a little bit more and being like well I can actually maybe I'm going to pick things from my childhood that I actually want to take with me and keep and let go of the things that I don't.

27:49I had a really great mum who acted like a mum and a dad she did the best that she could um so funny made me feel so safe i can cry to her all the time i can i there's so much love that i was that i did have and now i've got the tools to be able to look back and be like i'm going to take this and this and this and just leave the leave the faf because that doesn't serve me i've unpacked it i've healed from it i've forgiven myself forgiven him so i don't need to that's beautiful thank you no that really is it's an amazing way to be and and yeah i i um i always live by a sort of rule which is i i don't know i can't remember where the quote comes from but it's um seeking revenge is like drinking poison and wanting another person to die yes it only hurts yourself yeah and as much as it's painful to try to forgive and let go we must try and do that in life forgiveness is for yourself i think the same with resentment as well like when i've learned or my idea of resentment is that person is just again a mirror for all of the times where you didn't acknowledge your own like boundaries does that make sense if you know you're in a toxic relationship again not an abusive physically or something like that that's you know that person has got their own things that they're going through and should not take that out on you but i think if you're just in kind of a toxic relationship and you've got loads of resentment i think that's just a mirror of like every time you look at them it's a reminder that you neglected your own boundaries or you didn't show yourself that respect that you needed to and every time you look at them you're like it's just a reminder of that so when you forgive yourself and shed this i think most of life is about surrendering to it and the resistance is what causes us to be ill and not be okay when you just surrender to everything happening life becomes so much easier to manage that's so much harder to do as well it's so funny do you know what i find so strange is it's like um i think as humans we i think it's like an evolutional thing like evolutionary thing which is like the same we always thought the saber-toothed tiger was out there so survival always be scared the stick breaking behind you in the middle of the night isn't you know your neighbor saying hi it's you know something scary right so we lean into that sort of suffering place it's much easier for us to lean into the suffering be a victim it's much harder to not be and be positive and happy and take the good things out and so I think in life you have to try as much as it's difficult to not lean into that sense of suffering yeah but it's it's almost you have to be aware that you're doing it because sometimes I can get super anxious about something or find myself ruminating and then I'll just be like when I'm in tune with my body I'll be like we're literally tense so first of all let's just take a breath and actually just relax all of our limbs we've got the tools let the let the feeling flow through you it will pass as will everything you you are like I think we have to give ourselves enough credit we are stronger than we are told we are by society and all of those things like we are very strong humans when you feel an emotion you have got the you can just let it flow through you it doesn't have to you don't have to be like no I shouldn't feel this I don't want to feel this just feel it just feel it and it will pass and then you can go about your day How did your dad die quickly?

31:17Cancer. That old fucker. Yeah, it's not a good one, is it? It's not a good one. No, no. But it was two years, so he got diagnosed when I was 18. He was in and out of remission, and then he passed Christmas Day. I'm really sorry. That's all right. It says, yeah, but grief, you know, back to back is like, it's tricky. Yeah, I guess it's happened when I've been quite young, 20 and 24. But again, I think it's part of my story and it's allowed me to be more vulnerable than I've ever been in my life. And it allowed me to connect with everyone in my life on a way deeper level. And I've had people in my life like, oh my gosh, when I eventually experience grief, I feel like I'll be safe around you.

32:11I think this is why your music is so amazing. Thank you. Because, as you said, what you do is you encapsulate feelings and emotions and you're very honest. You know, one of your songs is about coming out as queer and that's quite a bold thing to talk about in a song, right? Because it's a very personal thing to you, but you decide to make music about it. Yeah. Which I think is amazing. Yeah, that's why I make music in the first place and why I love music because it is therapy. And there's something about, like it could be really hard for someone to say something, but to sing it is easier in a way of a poem.

32:52And I just found, I think, again, not in a mean way, but our lives aren't that unique. We're all in the same simulation. We're all on the same earth. So music is a way, I think, to connect people to each other because there might be someone sitting in their room who's isolated themselves and is like, I'm the only one going through this thing. Life is just awful. I can't. I don't know why this is happening to me. And then they can slap on a song and someone's talking about that exact scenario and being like, oh, the song has literally been written for me. I'm not alone in this. Maybe these things do happen to everybody.

33:31It might be a really awful breakup or death or something and being able to listen to a song where someone else has experienced that exact thing and being like oh my god I'm not alone is such a comforting feeling especially as someone who feels different from everybody else and wanting to seek connection in every way possible that's amazing so and that's why you connect so much with your like audience of people who love you because you've they connect obviously with you so well Yeah, yeah.

34:00Talk to me about autism and ADHD. So, ADHD, firstly with ADHD, let's start there. How did that manifest itself? How did that happen? How did you get the diagnosis as a kid? So, I got my ADHD diagnosis when I was 21. The relationship I was in at the time, she was like, you are showing all of these traits. that I think you really do have ADHD. And I was like, what are you on about? No, I don't. And then I looked it up and I went, oh, maybe I do. Maybe I actually do have this. And then I went to go and get a diagnosis and do the assessment and they were like, yeah, you have ADHD. And then when I told my mum, my mum was like, what?

34:47Maybe I have ADHD. I do all of these things. Was it a helpful thing when the diagnosis happened? Yeah. Yeah, it was. Because with both diagnoses, I give myself more grace in situations. I think before, I would beat myself up so much. Because I think ADHD in girls especially shows itself completely differently to how it does with boys. In what ways? So in school, for example, when you think of ADHD in general, in general, you think of like the boy in the corner who's just like super loud and it's like shaking, can't keep still. And he's just like yapping and noise, just doing something. But then there could be a girl literally sat next to him underneath the table, legs shaking.

35:35She's like playing with her hands. She's like struggling to focus on what the teacher's saying. But usually neurodivergent girls are still super smart and can still meet the deadlines and still get things done, but you just don't see the journey it took in order to get to that end sort of result. So it's like, even now, I could have a task to complete and I just will look at it and I just go, I can't do it. And I'll wake up going, we've got to do this. We've got to do this thing. We've got to do it. Everyone's asking for it. We've got to do it. And I go to do it and I just go, I can't do it. What does your brain do when that happens?

36:15Because I know what mine does, but I want to hear what yours does. It's just like paralysis. I just look at it and I just go, I actually cannot do it. And then if someone asks me to do it, like my manager will do it. She'll go, have you done it? And I'll just go, well, I'm not even doing it anymore. I won't do it. I wasn't going to do it then and I'm definitely not going to do it now. Now you've asked me to do it. I'm not doing it at all. And then it will be like, you have to do it right now because they're asking for it right now. I'm not. What if I don't? I'm not. What happens if I don't do it?

36:44What happens? Am I going to die? No. and then like when they said i won't like you once it's like i absolutely have to do it then i'll just get a mad head and i'll do every single task i've ever meant to do in like 10 minutes so it's like it's either one extreme or the other have you ever taken medication for it i have but i just didn't really find it really worked for me i just found generally just exercising um and eating better and just having a bit of a routine i've set things that i always do more helpful than the medication you'd be quite disciplined though in that area right so with the training and the eating and that's a really where just waking up and taking some medication i suppose is much easier than that that right especially for someone with ADHD.

37:37Yeah, it's a hard thing. I think the only reason why I've gotten to this point is sometimes you need like a shock thing to happen, something like drastic in your life to happen for you to just want to make a change. So for me, it was like my granddad passing. I was like just, I was waking up at 6am every day, super anxious. And then I'd be like, well, I can either lay in my bed anxious and just feel stressed or I can go on a walk. so then I just would go on a walk so I started and then I would feel the the whatever it is serotonin or dopamine or something that came from just being outside and talking to myself and then I was like well if I'm waking up at this time anyway why don't I just go to the gym and it was kind of like maybe I'll just start embracing a new change and then after you do something for I guess it's like a month or two or whatever it starts to just become part of your routine that if you don't do it and then you're like sad you're like why am I sad and you're like oh I didn't go on a run today or oh I didn't go to the gym today so it's like sometimes it takes something big in your life occurring for you to actually want to make that change because before that I was just like well how old are you when your grandfather died?

38:52In April yeah. Ken I'm sorry. That's all right see even things like this I'm I'm too neurodivergent for my good. But that's okay. It's fine to be that way. And don't defend yourself. No need. Yeah. I mean, it was... I mean, he was 89. He had a long life. The way he went was the way that everybody wants to. You're on your deathbed and you look at everyone that you've created. You take your last breath and then you go. It's like what everyone could want. um so i i think throughout this year it's it's like been a super defining moment in my life because i've just had to deal with good old-fashioned grief which i learned is just love so anytime i i'm sad or i have a wave of grief because it just comes randomly i just remind myself i'm just feeling a load of love without a place to put it yet that's an amazing way to put it it's exactly what it is I think it's it's not I think it genuinely I think grief is just so much an overwhelming amount of love which is why we end up crying and we feel like we're feeling really sad but I just think we're feeling so much love that we can no longer place to this person anymore and we don't know where to place it yet and over time as you say yes to more things and you open yourself up to receive love and give love you find new places to put it and obviously you'll still have waves of missing them because you wish you could give them that love but it is just it's just all love i i you're so in tune and why and this i really don't want this to come up with patrizing in any way but you're 24 right i am yes your emotional intelligence is thank you uber high thank you so much that's okay you're welcome it's your certificate thank you so much there you go well done okay and that's the end of the podcast but it is you're so in tune and for someone i would consider quite young it's it's a bit of a superpower because it's a superpower but also a curse because it means you think so deeply but also you understand things much easier where did you get that from why did you learn did it was it something in your life you had to learn quickly you had to understand emotion yeah again I think because, I mean, I was undiagnosed autism until last year.

41:13And I think I've always struggled with understanding people, emotions, why we do what we do, why we feel what we feel. And I've always kind of been obsessed with like monks and people who just seem to like not let life rock them. They sort of just surrender to everything and they accept the ebbs and flows and highs and lows of life. And I was always like, I want to be... that type of person like I find life so overwhelming how can I not and um I've always been interested in just spirituality and mastering yourself um and again when my granddad passed I just did a massive deep dive into reading a load of books um and just learning like how everything when you I sound I'm gonna sound a bit kumbaya my lord I love that but But I learned that everything is a mirror.

42:06Every relationship with someone is a mirror. And I just, I learned... Explain, what do you mean by a mirror? Because I know what you're meaning, but someone listening, they're not. For example, if you find yourself kind of always in toxic relationships, you only meet people where you've met yourself. So if you don't view yourself to high regard, you will attract somebody that also doesn't view themselves in high regard. So then you're not going to treat each other with the respect that you both deserve. Whereas if you meet yourself at a place where you've done the work to to know how something makes you feel like you could be in a relationship where someone brings up something and instead of blaming them, you're like, wait, this has triggered me.

42:53why has this triggered me let me do a deep dive into what this stems from and you start to just look at things as less as like so many things are happening to me and you start to think of life as coming from you and everything is your perspective so if inconveniences happen it's just an inconvenience doesn't mean that the universe is out to get you can just mean that this thing happened and it's everything is how you react to something i i'm going through this at the moment like literally literally at the moment understanding how um everything's a mirror and because i i i was triggered by so many things right especially in my relationship with my wife where she would get angry for something and of course the closest person to her would be me and it would that would happen i would get triggered because she was angry because i was always dubbed a naughty kid so i would think i'm being told off again so i would get angry because i'm being told off for something that's not my fault yes and that would and i'm realizing that was that pattern that i was into until i finally put the mirror on myself i said wait hang on a second why am i doing this but it took me to 30s sorry it took me to 29 took you to 36 years of age 36 years of age but you get there when you get there everybody's path and journey it takes it it goes in a different way like I think I I realized I my people pleasing tendencies and just general desire again not to be in trouble would cause me to tell little white lies about things because when I was younger I would get in trouble I couldn't if I told the truth I'd get in trouble about certain things so then I was like okay so maybe I should you know maybe tell a lie then and then you grow up telling little white lies and then you end up in relationships and they go why did you lie about this little thing i go oh i thought you i thought you were going to tell me off so like what give me an example of that it could be something as simple to make you sound more interesting you would give white lies or no it's it's genuinely it'd be a i don't do this anymore but it was it's like a it's like a safety thing it's kind of like if someone has shown that they're up they might be upset by something or you don't know how they're going to react i would just be like okay, well, I maybe won't tell you this thing that I've done.

45:14I won't tell you. And it's nothing to the extent of, like, cheating or things like that. It's just, like, I just won't tell you this little thing that I've done then. But then when you find out I haven't told you, they're like, why did you lie about that? I'm like, ugh. That is so good. I know exactly what you're talking about. This sounds so strange, but a prime example of me, I used to do the same thing I used to tell white lies because telling the truth in that moment, was so much more difficult. So I'd rather not tell the truth then and to tell a white lie because I'm sure they'd find out in the future, but that future was far away.

45:52So I don't need to live in the present moment. It's easier to lie. Yes. And I used to do that all the time because it's people-pleasing technique. It is. I remember when I was a kid and there was a party called The Feathers, which was like a young person's ball. And tickets to this party were quite hard. I said to I reckon 30 people I had tickets for them So you did that so that they could like you? Yeah Right, okay The day before I had to let down 20 of them Oh my gosh Because I only had 10 tickets Oh my gosh Yeah, and I used to do that all the time I used to lie like little white lies People said, oh can I come to this Or certain feelings Or hey, do you want to come to hang out with me this weekend?

46:33Yeah, sure, fine Because if I also rejected people then I thought they would feel bad and also reject me so I didn't want to do that either it's very strange technique it is but I think I think conversations and dealing with people anyway is like a tennis match like it's you kind of it does need to be a safe space on the receiving end if you are with people who when you do decide to tell the truth make it a safe space then you feel more comfortable to tell the truth more often you know but if you're met with when you do tell the truth their reaction is a certain way especially for people pleasers I think trying to find secure people who can just respond in a secure way to anything you say is so ideal for breaking out of the white lies and maybe being dubbed as like not an honest person because they're making it a safe space for you to share that you know totally with autism when you said that you were always analyzing you always sort of felt that you were I suppose maybe different in the room how did it manifest for you autism how did you know that perhaps you were potentially different to others um I think the fundamental thing with autism and why most people who end up getting diagnosed with autism especially later on in life is genuinely feeling inherently different from everybody else you just feel like you're doing life wrong and you feel like there's like for me it just feels like there's like hidden cameras everywhere and like someone's just gonna be like stop that wasn't the right way to say that let's do that again let's say that again Katrina let's do that again and I'll go oh sorry um so most of like my life I just felt very different from people I've struggled to connect with people and speak to people and I was such a sponge when I was younger.

48:33Luckily, I had an older sibling, so I just copied everything she did. How she acted, her sense of humour, which is why if you meet her now, she's like, I just moulded you into me. You are just me, but six years younger. And I'm like, yeah, because I didn't know what I was doing. So then after I got my ADHD diagnosis, I was like, something still doesn't feel all the way correct up here. Something else is going on. Something else is happening. I don't want to know what it is. And then I started doing some more research into autism and how it shows up in girls. And I was like, I really identify with this.

49:20Even when I'm speaking to you, I'm really conscious of giving you eye contact. But usually if I'm listening to somebody or talking, I'm not looking. in the person's face but I'm like I have to look at you so therefore I'm like look look look look look so there's like so many social things that I've been conditioned to do and learn or I'll be in a group and like if someone says a joke and laughs I'm like I don't find that funny but laugh along and it's just sort of like somehow going through life just sort of going okay so so then you feel awkward right because you and then that gives you a sense of social anxiety so then situations give you complete social anxiety because you think you're going to do something wrong because you don't feel like you're fitting in yes correct and i think i the only reason i think one i'm late diagnosed but i i also i loved films growing up loved musical theatre, loved everything to do with the arts.

50:23So I think that helped me come out of my shell more and also made me kind of have quite an animated voice and how I speak but that's just based on the things that I watch and the things that I've consumed which I think is the case for a lot of autistic people who vary on the spectrum. You might meet someone who they speak like my gosh you've watched this show and that is how you just communicate and speak um and i'm the same yeah because i just recite film uh words all the time just random films i just recite them because that i've just i was such a sponge because i was like how do i exist in the world let me watch films let me watch tv shows because i just found people confusing and scary so i would just like watch tv and film and animations and that was where i started to develop my personality which is just all of those films so what was the films oh well we've got shark tail oh me and shark tail i could recite most words from that yeah me and shark tail are like this one of my other favorite shark's animation right yeah yes one of my other favorite films uh it's called meet the robinsons no one seems to know about that it's the best animation film that i've ever seen in my life came out in 2007 it's random but it's fabulous i also not to make you feel stressed out i was obsessed with made in chelsea were you yeah oh that does stress me out does it well i could recite so many lines go on give me some oh no one's quite bad it was like it was at the dinner party yeah this is the early season the early season was quite fab yeah it was pretty good it was it was really juicy so there was one dinner party and i can't remember who said it to who but someone i can swear right yeah someone called someone a fucking fat turkey that was crazy or it was when i think it was i think it was millie where she went this is what you've done this is what you've fucking done to her and smacked spencer across the face and in school me and my friends would act that out we would act out that scene over and over again me and my sister will do it still to this day yeah or when he goes oh what's the thing that Spencer says, and he's like, oh.

52:53You let me, why would you? When you allow me to cheat on you. I was like, sorry, what? There was some crazy, crazy times, man. And then Louise tried to smack Spencer, but he learnt from me. He learnt from last time and dodged it. I just thought, whoa. When Lucy was like, why is everyone up on my grill? I was like, who says grill? It was just so many words. Oh, gosh. Making Chelsea was a beautiful show. It was just a really, really, really great show. Really, really great. Oh, when Spencer didn't like Andy. God, it's so good. I just loved. I loved being Chelsea. It's so good. Spencer learned from abortion dodging.

53:38He did. Yeah, he did. She wanted to get it. And I thought, oh, Louise, you're too small as well. You can't reach him. And then he just dodged it. She was like, ugh. What a time to be alive. That was a crazy time.

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55:32The song Free, right, which is about coming out, why do you title it Free? I think the chorus just was like, free? And I was like, let's call it that. But it's a freeing thing. I think the song itself is me coming out to my mum. And although I have the most accepting, loving family, at first there was just a little bit of fear that my mum had of just like, safety-wise, if you're, you know, too loud about your queerness, especially with the career that you have, there might be people that want to cause you harm. And so she was kind of like, maybe don't share it too much. And so when I was writing the song, I was like, I'm too far gone now.

56:21And you were the person I was most scared to share this with. And now I've shared it with you. I'm free. Anybody else, I don't really care. And I think that song is one of the reasons why I do music in the first place, because I still get messages from people saying they use that song to come out to their parents. They just sent it to them and their parents could understand what they were feeling better. or they're in countries where it's just illegal and they can listen to that song and be free within their head. So I think the free, it could be internal or it could be external. It's just that feeling of finally accepting yourself and stepping into your truth.

57:02Yeah, which is like that sense when you find you're behaving in the way that you truly are. It's true, it's when you feel most liberal. That's when you feel free suddenly, right? Absolutely. as soon as I came out I just learned so much about myself I was like wait how I've been dressing has been for validation from men I don't care for their validation I don't want it so maybe how do I actually want to dress how do I actually want to exist in the world how how do I actually want to be and I just started to exist for myself um which naturally just radiates in everything that I do because I'm being my authentic self.

57:42So when did you realise you like girls? So I went to an event like November 2019 and I got really drunk and there was this other like lesbian artist there and I was like to, sometimes I have gay thoughts, but I'm not gay. And she was like, okay. Okay, thanks for spilling that on me. She was like, well, it's okay if you are. And I was like, well, I know it's okay, but I'm not. So don't worry about that. and then I woke up the next day and I was like why the hell did I say that why have I ever said that why did I say that do I feel that way what and then I had a few more months before lockdown happened that I could just push that to the back of my head still tried to date men funny enough the last man I dated prior to coming out was like the girl I was last seeing came out as gay and I was like well don't have to worry about that with me you don't have to worry about that that's not me at all and then I did and then I came out he must be like what the hell is wrong with me what am I doing wrong what am I giving off what am I attracting lesbians am I turning everyone gay I don't really get it yeah that's basically his life I love that don't worry you don't have to worry about that with me don't worry about that a month later alright guys Hi, everyone.

59:07But then I realised, it was actually through social media. It was like TikTok was at the time when the algorithm was just being really loud. Yeah, yeah. It was just scrolling and then it would be like, you're gay every so often. Just TikTok, that would just be like... TikTok was silly. Yeah, yes. I would just scroll and then it would be like, if you're watching this, you're gay. And obviously you can only, things can only touch a nerve if it's true. So I guess as it scrolled and it said, you are gay, I was like, am I? Maybe I am. I think I am. I think I am. And then I started to see different sort of creators that were queer and they were girls.

59:47And I was like, oh, I think I find these women attractive. And I realized, for me anyway, I'm not one of those queer women that enjoy straight women or want to see if they can explain. No. If I know you're a queer woman, I will find you attractive. If I know that you are a straight woman, you are not remotely desirable to me in any way, shape or form. So I think that's why it also took me a minute to realize whether I liked girls because I wasn't around queer women. and then once I did it just spiralled from there I thought I was bisexual I wasn't and I was like yeah and then once I got into my first relationship I was like yeah I'm not I will never ever be with a man ever again have you ever had your heart broken?

1:00:34yeah have I? oh brother you want to talk about it? I mean out of respect for the other person I won't okay but I have had my heart broken and women loving women breakups are hell on earth I thought I was going to die yeah I actually thought I was going to die I woke up and I was like I'm in hell I this is awful this is awful I went to my mum's room laid on top of her and I was like I think I might die and then my mum was like yeah when I had my first breakup too my mum walked in and saw me just rocking on the floor just screaming and crying when she told me that I stopped crying I went sorry what did you say to me she was like yeah I was screaming and crying and rocking from side to side on the floor and I was like oh okay this is a universal experience then okay i feel a little bit safer you need other sort of validation outside sources because i was like mom this is hell like this is awful and then she was like yeah no i've i've been there as well you will you will get through it i can't tell you when but you will it is for anyone who's experiencing a breakup right now it is the worst feeling in the world mine was so bad my first when i had my heart broken i think i had my heart broken once when I was like 15, 16.

1:02:07And the whole thing was chaos. But then in the morning, I went and got into the shower and I thought it was a dream, but then I realised it was a nightmare and I was on my hands and knees and I punched the ground.

1:02:21Honestly, I honestly... Sorry? You were on your hands and knees in the shower? In the shower, like a little key in the shower. And I went, no! And punched the floor of the shower. The no before.

1:02:41Oh my goodness. Wow. That'll do it to you. Nothing beats the shower cry. Where you're just like, your tears become one with the water and you're just like, what is my life? Yeah, but also I don't face it, I face away. So the image of me. That could be an album cover. Yeah. No. No. But before I do it, just me in the shower. Just in deep, deep sadness. Slightly hunched. Sitting on a chair in the shower. Do you know what? When you come out of like, when you come out the other end of it and you're just like, I was a lunatic then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It changes your whole chemistry in your brain. Yeah, it does.

1:03:25It does. But it's also, it means you love someone really deeply and your body is adjusting to the fact that you can no longer love them. Are you past it? Mm-hmm. Again, I think life is a wonderful thing. I don't really like when people say, like, moving on or getting over. I think something at the start of that, at the start of breakup, I always think, like, how am I going to be able to get over this? because all it is is you've loved someone for so long and you now no longer can love them. I think my biggest struggle was the dynamic shift of going from this person was my safe person, someone I could unmask around, to our conversations are going to be really cold and I can't know anything about their life and they can't know anything about my life.

1:04:28And that dynamic shift was really hard because when I love people, I love people really, deeply and then over time i accepted it's like you don't have to it's not about um stopping that it's just embracing your new life and embracing and being open to other things that life have in store and just affirmations helped me a lot yeah affirmations were my best friend every day i just go i released myself and every and there's i think there's a film eat pray i think it's eat pray love Yeah, it's great. Where she's like, oh, but I miss him or something. And he's like, yeah, you can miss him. And every time you do, just send him love.

1:05:07Just send love his way and go about your day. It's so true. Affirmations for me have been a complete game changer in so many ways.

1:05:18Kat, I have enjoyed this whole conversation. So have I. It's been really amazing. And what I now know is before you go on stage, if I see you again, I'm just going to come up to you and say, so what's the meaning of life? Take out my ears well. I miss the intro because I'm just yapping away. You truly are. You're amazing. And you're such an inspiration to so many people, so many young people and just a way to live life and be free and be yourself. And also it's okay to feel awkward and to feel different in certain ways. But I just love it. We like to end the conversation with eight questions. You ready for this?

1:05:54Hit me. What's a Sega phrase that always makes you smile or cheers you up? Every day the sun won't shine, but that's why I love tomorrow. Glorilla. There we go. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? Your aura is really nice. Anything to do with energy or aura, I'm like, oh, thank you so much. I ditto that, it's amazing. What scares you most about yourself? How big my feelings can be. That's a beautiful thing. yeah but like when I have a big breakdown I have they're big and it's just like chill out man when was the last time you cried and why? yesterday maybe the day before why was I even crying?

1:06:39I think I I think I honestly was like agitated I was overstimulated that day and I think I knocked my you know when the door knob like humbles you and I just just like I've had enough of this day I've had enough and I just shed a tear What's something you can't let go of? Soft mints You know treble soft mints? Green or blue? That's a great answer What's your guilty pleasure? My guilty pleasure Made in Chelsea Well sometimes it is Made in Chelsea but it is actually Geordie Shaw Out of nowhere is it really? Maiden Chelsea, Towie and Geordie Short were my shows growing up. But I can re-watch Geordie Short.

1:07:25I'm re-watching it now. From the beginning? Yeah. You're not. From season one to 11, I will re-watch over and over again. What turns you off? People who are mean to hospitality staff. Very good. What turns you on? Intellectual conversation. What do you like most about yourself? I think I'm quite funny you are very funny last one favourite swear word have you ever seen that Miranda Cosgrove interview where she goes probably fucked

1:08:02but I actually think maybe it's like it's like shit it's like covering her my favourite word is Tracy Beaker when she says bog off but that's not a swear word Kat Buzz thank you so much thank you so much

1:08:23What a legend. That was very funny. She's great. She's so funny. I could listen to her for hours. Yeah, she's funny. She's interested. She's interesting. Her sort of take on the world is amazing. And I love how she goes through life with laughter. That's my favorite thing. Yeah. She doesn't like small talk. But I think I made her feel comfortable now. Yeah. But I just love that. She was like, ask me the meaning of life. and then I'm in small talk I can't do which I think so many people relate to I can do small talk and big talk I can't do medium talk I love small talk I can kind of do both I think I love a little bit of chit chat but ask me how's your week been how you do you like that I need to switch off okay fine I get it ask me about the weather or the meaning of life okay I can I can flip into all of them but I do like deep talk a lot oh yeah same I mean we just saw that we just saw that in there guys thank you so much for tuning in we really appreciate it just shout out to the owls I've not mentioned the owls in a while our wonderful listeners and PJ over here would love you to let us know what you think of the show and so would I you can slide into our DMs at Great Company Podcast send us an email greatcompany at jampoproductions.co.uk everything is in the show description and if you haven't subscribed to the show watch our YouTube please do guys we're going to see you next week we cannot wait every single Wednesday for another episode of Great Company see you later

1:10:01Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

1:10:33Nicotine is an addictive chemical. No one knows your business better than you. So who better to create your website than, well, you? Wix's website builder puts it all in your hands. Create a beautiful website just by talking with AI or choosing from thousands of templates. Customize every detail with simple drag-and-drop tools and get everything you need to start running business your way. Build more, think bigger, and do it all yourself on Wix. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families.

1:11:13With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real-time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save, and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight today at greenlight.com slash podcast. Hello, everyone. We're Jamie and Sophie. You may remember us from nearlyweds and then newlyweds. But now, guys, things are about to get even wilder as we take on our biggest adventure yet, becoming parents. Yeah, that's right. Newlyweds is now Nearly Parents, and we're bringing you the same honest, heartwarming takes on our journey to parenthood, I guess.

1:11:52Join us as we find out what it really means to become a family while trying not to kill each other. Get ready for Nearly Parents, your favourite new podcast.