DR ALIZA PRESSMAN: THE HIDDEN IMPACT OF PARENT'S MENTAL HEALTH ON CHILDREN

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2:08Hello everyone, my name is Jamie Lange and this is Great Company.

2:16Well, hello Jemima. Hi. How are you PJ? I was about to say how are you as well. I'm well, yourself, PJ. Present to Jamie. Present to Jamie. PJ2, PJ1, PJ2. Hey, and welcome back to our... Al's Hoot. Our wonderful listeners. Hoot. Hoot. That's the first time you've hooted. The reason why you want to do this is when we go and do our stage show, which will be at some point. I really want to do that. You want to go to the stage and go, hoot, hoot. I want to do like a slow, have you ever seen the end of Cool Runnings? When they do the slow clap. It's a very, like a real trope from like a 90s, 90s sports film.

2:50When they're walking with the. And they're like, clap, clap, clap, clap. And it turns into like a big applause. I want that with like, hoot, hoot, hoot, hoot. And then it's just like loads of hoots. Okay, we can try and make that happen. Then you come from the sky. Like a hawk. With wings. Well, welcome back, everybody. Today we have someone called Eliza Pressman on the show. I actually recorded this while I was in Los Angeles, and you weren't there with me for this. No, I wasn't. He went rogue. I went rogue on this one. Eliza was so interesting. She actually arrived a little bit late. Oh. Yeah, she was stuck in traffic, and we made quite a bit of a joke about it, which was quite funny, but she was incredible.

3:28She is a childhood expert. she looks at childhood and see how it creates trauma within us how everything that we are as humans is developed when we were young that's so interesting fascinating yeah i'm obsessed with childhood i was about to say you're really into your inner child massively massively and i think everything so many things that we've learned from when we were kids are kind of brought into everyday life and so for me this episode was a real eye-opener and i'm really excited and also interesting because you're thinking about like we've spoken quite a lot of episodes about you becoming a parent yourself so quite like being like wow that's quite a big impact you can have on someone so get ready for this one are you ready yeah i can't i actually cannot wait because um i'm gonna be i don't know what jamie did on this recording you're gonna be listening and editing this yeah i'm really really excited for this one okay it's gonna be amazing right if you haven't subscribed to the show already please do sign to our dms at great company podcast or send us an email greatcompany at jampopproductions.co.uk.

4:26Everything is in the show description. Let us know what you think of the show, what new guests we want, anything at all. We'd love to hear from you. Okay, you ready for this? I am. Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Eliza Pressman. So I think where we should start for our audience is you should explain who you are and what you do. My name is Dr. Eliza Pressman. I mean, Eliza. And I'm a developmental psychologist. Just the hat that I have is training physicians or talking to parents. And then the way that I talk to parents is in private practice, but also in groups. And also I have a podcast and I write and I try to.

5:03Your podcast is brilliant, by the way. Thank you. It really is. It's amazing. I love working with families who are kind of saying like, oh, my God, what just happened? I'm in charge of a whole human or multiple humans. And it's hard for me. Why is it hard for you? I mean, it's hard for people say that it's by the way, it's hard for me to as a mother. I mean, because I can I have a lot of information. And I just got beat up this morning by my teenager. I was like, Are you kidding me? Like I fell? I was susceptible like anybody else, even though in my head, I was like, do the steps totally do the step one take a deep breath don't react like all the things don't be aggressive it's yeah don't blame them yeah all of it but it didn't matter so i think part of it is supporting parents in their journey part of it is helping people be reflective about their own experience growing up and being parented and how they want to do things the same or do things differently.

6:05And part of it is like accepting that this is really hard stuff. There are some things I know really well, like things that I would consider procedural, like getting a kid to sleep or feeding or pooping or something like that. Like I'm really good at that stuff. Not pooping, but teaching somebody how to potty train. You're like the baby whisperer that can make... Like, those are easy things for me because they're sort of technical. But then when it comes to other things, like the bigger things, I know the research. But it doesn't mean that, you know, if someone's bullying my kid, do I know the research on how best to respond?

6:44Sure. But I also know that I'm going to feel things that are different than if, for example, your child was being bullied. How I might support you is going to be different because I'm a little bit removed from it.

6:59How important is the first few years of childhood to see your sort of destiny for the rest of your life? How important is that parenthood in those sort of early years? So the first three years of life is the majority of our brain is developed. But there's still another huge growth during the adolescent years. And then, and the adolescent years, by the way, go all the way up to some, You don't fully develop your brain until sometime between 18 and 30. And it's later for boys. So that's why in your 20s, I think, though this will sound controversial, just like when you think of just classically, just the stereotype of men and women, a 22-year-old woman and a 22-year-old man.

7:48You can say it. It's just a little bit different. You can say it. So I think keeping that in mind, the third biggest time for brain development, which I think is so beautiful and fascinating, is the transition to parenthood when you become a parent. And you don't have to be the biological parent. You could be adoptive. You could be the adoptive parent. You can be the dad. You didn't have to give birth. It's the third biggest time your brain grows in your life. And then after that, it's all downhill. How do we know that? What do we mean it grows? So explain that a little bit. What do we mean the brain grows?

8:28So this research is, I can send you all the papers on this research. It's not my research. I'm just a translator of the research. But essentially what they found is that the brain is open to change and have positive growth during the onset of parenthood. And what we think is the reason, and this is in brain scans, What we think is the reason is that you care so much that you are more likely to quit smoking. You're more likely to quit drinking. You're more likely to do the things that you've been meaning to do because you care so much. And it's interesting because people say mom brain a lot. Like, oh, I just had a baby.

9:09I'm like so like I can't think about anything. I'm out of it or I can't find my car keys. mom brain or dad brain or whatever it is, is actually you're reallocating the resources of your brain to things that matter more. Like, I don't care where my keys are. I'm keeping a human alive. But it's actually growth. It's not that your brain is shrinking, which it feels like I'm getting dumber. But actually, you're getting smarter. So for people who potentially choose not to have kids. They don't. Does that growth still happen? It's, no. But you can have this growth through caregiving. So like the act of caregiving can grow your brain.

9:53So taking care of. This is fascinating. It is mind-blowing to me. That is mind-blowing. So hang, just to, I live by a quote, which is amazing. It's not really a quote, but it's sort of a saying that Socrates said, and I've said this on the podcast before, which is there are two levels of happiness. The lower level, which is fame, wealth, power, the things that we want to achieve. And there's a higher level of happiness, which is caregiving, giving back, love, those kind of things. And when you get to that base, you're immensely happy. And it's obviously because your brain has grown. Yes, I didn't know that.

10:24But yes, I mean, that tracks, right? Because there's nothing more healing and there's nothing better for your brain than caring for others. That's why when people are feeling hopeless, there's a quote, you know, if you feel hopeless, get helpful. It's so important to remember that the act of caregiving grows your brain. But in particular, in the transition to parenthood, it very much is like, it's that third growth spurt before cognitive decline of adulthood. if a child if you are someone who's gone through some sort of trauma maybe um you have attachment issues or you weren't loved you were told that you were in order to get all these things growing up that is changeable yeah so that's the beautiful thing that's the beautiful that's the retrofitting like of the house that's not set up for earthquakes you're retrofitting your attachment so you understand i was not i did not feel loved for who i was i did not feel that if i made a mistake my parent would stick around i was always worried about whether or not they would show up i want to change that and i'm worthy of changing that for me when you start therapy right i think a lot of people um do therapy because they want reassurance and different things like this and when i started doing therapy and understanding in myself a little bit more, I suddenly got to what I can only describe as a wall of emotions that I realized I hadn't gone further than this wall here.

12:03And to get past that wall and realize who I actually was and actually what I was blocking was really tough. Because I had spent so much of my life being resilient, holding my armor, that I found it impossible to become that vulnerable in that space and really sort of put a mirror in front of me and see who I truly was. So for someone listening now who doesn't want to go there, how do they change? I don't know. How do you change someone who has had so long living a certain way because they've had to for survival instincts? Well, I think the incentive has to be there. Okay. And also, I mean, that's why when you start thinking about love and wanting like a real relationship and a child, you have incentive.

12:51You're like, I can't keep living like this. I'm going to do the things that I need to do. But I also want to just point out that you keep referring to the resilience as like not being vulnerable. And I don't think you can be vulnerable and resilient. You are. But it's more, I think that it sounds like the attitude of keep it inside was considered resilient. And I'm not saying that you're supposed to go into the world like a raw nerve, because that is so annoying. Right? Like, nobody wants to be around somebody who is set off at all points and is constantly unable to function when things are not going their way.

13:41But I do think there is something to thinking, if I don't have an emotional reaction that I am somehow a stronger person. I think you can be a very strong person and have an emotional reaction. And you just took a long time to learn that. And you were not. But I understand that at eight years old, I don't know. I mean, you lose all of the things that took care of you in one swoop. You have to kind of shut off. You're too little. You're too little. But now you're old enough to be able to say, that was too little to understand that people always come back. You know, to believe that because your nanny left and your parents got divorced and you're in boarding school.

14:29Like, that's so much. At eight, that's so little when you're just so sorry. No, I didn't mind at all. It's very little. It was very little, yeah. You know, it's not the same thing as even going to boarding school in high school when you're like, goodbye. You know, you want to be away from your parents. But at eight, you don't. No, you don't at all.

14:57One thing that is a sort of big topic at the moment is, you know, where your child sleeps. Sleeping in the cot, does it sleep in your bed? Does it sleep in your room? You know, when I was a child, I slept in a cot in a separate room. but there's a lot of conversation around maybe sleeping with the child in your bed what are the sort of ideas around this i my i get very upset on behalf of parents for this particular topic because there's so much research that says where your baby sleeps is irrelevant it's that they get sleep except for in the first year of life it is there are lower rates of SIDS, sudden infant death syndrome, when they are sleeping in a separate bed.

15:45But that doesn't mean a separate room. They can be sleeping. The recommendation, certainly in the United States, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends sleeping in the same room with a, you know, like what's, I guess it's a cot. It's like a three-sided cot that's kind of attached to the bed for the first six months, six to twelve months or a separate crib in another room or you can bed share I just work in a hospital so I wouldn't recommend bed sharing because it's you know but like if you don't have lots of bedding there's no obesity there's no smoking there's no substance use it's it's culturally appropriate for you like do your thing you have to make sure that you don't have any of those particular challenges otherwise it's quite dangerous hmm but what I think is frustrating is that there are people that are certain.

16:35They'll tell you on social media or out in the world that you must bed share in order to have a close attachment, or you must not sleep in the same room in order for your child to get good sleep and thrive. And that's gobbledygook. There's so much robust data showing it just needs, like what matters is sleep, both the parents sleep and the kids sleep. So all that other noise, like if, for example, your sibling's baby is sleeping in the other room and your sister, it's your sister? Or your sister-in-law who just had a baby? My sister-in-law just had a baby. Your sister-in-law. And if she's like, okay, I did it this way and this is the best way to do it.

17:18And you're like, I don't want to do it that way. I want, I would do, I actually want the baby in another room, in a crib, lovingly in a separate room. and I think that'll be better for my relationship, and I don't want to do what you're doing, don't do it. Like, there's no science to say one is better than the other. There are some recommendations about safety, which is separate, but in terms of attachment relationship, it has nothing to do with how your baby feeds or sleeps. And I want you to know this because you will hear so many different things. And I actually spoke with two octogenarians who were the sort of the leading researchers in attachment that are still alive.

18:03So there was John Bowlby, Mary Ainsworth, and then her student is still alive. And he's done the longest running study on, his name is Professor Alan Sroff. he's done the longest study decades and decades and decades about attachment and i said to him can you please like before i wrote my book because i wanted to just triple quadruple confirm can you please make sure that this is okay and he was like your attachment is utterly unrelated to those procedural things like sleep so let people say what they will if it makes them feel better like this is how we do it in this household it's really good for attachment but it's it's stories that is because there is there is a lot of noise out there so much noise it's crazy and it's mean it is mean and um especially with social media now that you you do a certain thing or you hold your child a certain way or feed your child a certain way you know there are so many things It's just there is so much out there.

19:08So it becomes complicated and scary. And so therefore, you are kind of worried about how to raise your child because you don't know what's right and wrong. That's why it was so important to me to say, like, there are big things like we talked about some of the big things that really, really move the needle. but like if you're ever wondering i mean call me and i will tell you but if you're ever wondering if something is going to move the needle on how your child grows and develops the answer is probably it doesn't and so when people say things like that it is so irresponsible i understand why it happens does it make you annoyed it drives me you could see like I can feel it.

19:53I can feel it. It drives me crazy. Because I'm just like, there's no prescription that is going to be accurate for every family. And let me tell you, for one mom, breastfeeding is the most beautiful thing in the world. And for another mom, it is absolutely the reason why she has postpartum depression, and she needs to be medicated and take care of herself and give her child formula and be fine. So like, is breast best? Sure. In, you know, all things being equal and whatever. But like when you unpack the data, it's not better than a mom who's functioning. It's not better than a mom who's feeling good.

20:29It's not better than a mom who's, you know, really been waiting her whole life to have a baby but adopted a baby because she couldn't give biological birth. That baby's not less well off ever because they didn't breastfeed. So and there's no association between that and attachment. There is an association with allergies and some other stuff, obesity, blah, blah. but like that is what drives me crazy it's like you have to do what's right for your particular relationship your family and your these are like it's like somebody saying that you should wear a particular color shirt because it's going to make people uh like you more if they like that color sure it will work it's such good advice with with i i've always known as pay post natal depression but is it what is this postpartum depression postpartum depression maybe it's called something different maybe it is but you're in your part my in my area my limited knowledge of it right is um it can happen in typically it happens more in women but it does happen in men yes and it's when you when you give birth or you have a child and then you your your hormones or the life there's lots of changes going on and you do you slip into a form of depression yes I imagine that so many people who listen to you and study what you have spoken about and are listening to this podcast now are potentially feeling that way.

21:53Maybe they're on a group chat with lots of other moms who are saying I'm just having the best time in the world. It's amazing. I love my child, but they inside are feeling terrible. What would you say to them? it is there are so there's so this is such a treatable illness like it's so beautiful you just go to your doctor right this second and you say i am feeling disconnected from this baby i or i am feeling worthless or hopeless or i'm questioning everything or i'm ruminating or i'm terrified and it's not stopping and it's been two weeks and i i can't get it back and they will make sure that you are treated.

22:29That is something that every physician is now so armed with. It's so treatable and it's so important. And if you have a partner where you're just like, okay, there's one baby blues are like, we all get baby blues. You know, you tear up at a commercial, you're feeling very stressed. You've got a living human that you are fully responsible for and you barely know how to take care of yourself. You know, and nobody, it's crazy. There's no license. I sometimes just I sit at home sometimes and I'm like, I cannot believe how much I'm in charge of. This is ridiculous. How in the world am I allowed to do this?

23:04And I feel quite qualified. And I still am like, huh. This is if when kids grow up and realize like now I think back like my parents were so young and dumb. like what what and but they're your parents so you figured it all out so i would just say anybody who's having those feelings tell your primary care physician you don't have to go to a shrink you just go right to your pediatrician you go right to your ob-gyn any of them and you just say those words and they've got you it is crucial for your child because the mental health of the parent, particularly the primary parent, is inextricably linked to the mental health of the child.

23:52It's the most important thing you can do for your child is to take care of your mental health. That is so interesting because I think my mum must have been anxious when I was born because I think she was in a relationship with my dad where my dad was probably, you know, off to work and distant and my mom, you know, was a bit, you know, she was seeking his approval and seeking his love all the time. And I think that sort of fed almost to me. So I think I became an anxious child because of that. That's so interesting that your mental health reflects your child's health. You've got to take care of it.

24:28And I think we don't take care of ourselves because we're taking care of our kids and we're like, I have to prioritize my child. So I just want everybody, I mean, it's so cliche, but when you get on the airplane and they say, put your oxygen mask on first before helping a child next to you. That's so you don't die or pass out. And then what's your child going to do? So that's why we have to do it. We have to put our oxygen mask on first. And it's not a luxury. It's critical for your kids. I always think the best way to get to mothers and fathers is for me to tell them it's good for their kids because I know they don't care about themselves as much anymore.

25:08Wow. What is the one piece of advice you would like someone to take away from this conversation?

25:20I don't know, but I don't know. I don't know. But I will say there's a sentence that I think is a good reminder in relationships that might be helpful for parents or for people in any relationship, which is all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. And it kind of gives you all you need, which is, am I honoring this person's feelings? Because I'm not going to be able to tell somebody how to feel. So am I allowing them to feel how they feel? Versus saying, don't be scared, don't be anxious, don't be sad, don't be angry. And then, am I still having boundaries and limits, those rules that I was talking about, that's where all behaviors are not.

26:00So you can feel angry. You can't punch me in the face. That to me is good parenting. So good. And what is one thing that you, you sort of mentioned it, but you really want people to not listen to or follow that you kind of hear all the time that people are saying things you like? No. And I love that thing you said earlier, which is like, you know, whatever works for you, you kind of do. Yeah, I want people to just know, like, if something's helpful for you, fantastic. But if you're hearing somebody give advice and it's making you feel like you're a shitty parent, it's probably not a good fit.

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27:30And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key. and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers. Plus, you can rely on Grainger for easy reordering, so you never run out of what you need.

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28:19if i was going to come to you and i would say look i'm i've just given birth i have my wife has just given birth to a baby how do i become the best parent what would you say i do okay so the first thing i would say is to just lean into self-compassion like it's really hard stuff. And if we're trying to be perfect at it, like I was saying earlier, it's the enemy of actually being a really good parent because you're not going to be perfect. And if you spend time trying to be perfect and beating yourself up, you're not focused on just being with your kid and with your partner so that, you know, you've got to let yourself make mistakes.

29:03And your child, again needs to know over the years you make mistakes and you don't beat yourself up over it so what the first thing i like to say is as you make mistakes right now before you're a parent try to use the voice inside your head that you dream that you hope your child will use when they make mistakes so give me an example of that so i um what's a mistake that like you would beat yourself up about i was late this morning Mm-hmm. Which is so disrespectful. You were beating yourself up. And I was beating myself up about it. Yeah. In my dream world, if my daughter is late, first of all, I want her to be conscientious and not show up late, because it's disrespectful.

29:49And also, if something happened where she ends up late, I'm hoping that she's not, like, inside her head, she's not going, you're so dumb, you're such an idiot, you should have left a half hour earlier, you're the worst. You're not worth anything. You shouldn't even be there. Like, those are the nasty things that we say to ourselves. Instead, I'd want her to say, like, well, that sucks. I really am bummed that I'm late. I wish I had left earlier. Next time, I'm going to remember to plan. Wouldn't that just be a nicer way to be? So you're not letting yourself off the hook. You're not like, who cares?

30:21Like, self-compassion, self-care. It's, you care, but you're not, like, debilitated by it. You're planning for the next time, and you're going to do a little bit better. so you're speaking kindly when they're growing up what other things are there that we can use um so also reflection is really important so i have a book where i talk about the five the five principles of parenting i mean i don't care if people buy it because i know we've already left the link in the description yeah like buy it or not it's like it came out a year ago i don't care i don't like when people in my field are like without this you're going to be a bad parent because that's not true i hope this is helpful but it's not you know like if you're here if you're not if you're paying attention if you're curious about being a good parent you're a good enough parent you know it's a little funny thing about this gig is that the people who are interested are usually not the people who need it as much so in your book how do you describe them what do you say okay so i've sort of curated the research from decades and decades.

31:29And I checked with a lot of colleagues so that I wasn't just like coming up with this on my own. And so there are five things that are rooted in science that are on us as the parent. And this is what I would tell you as you're embarking on this. The five things are relationship. So cultivating a close connected relationship first with your partner who you're having the baby with. If you're having a baby with a partner, in this case you are and with your child. So out of the gate cultivating a relationship. And with a baby, that just means cuddling and snuggling and making fun faces and being, you know, taking care of them and changing their diaper, which side note, that's where the act of caregiving comes in.

32:10Sometimes you're like, I will do everything, but I hate diapers. But actually feeding and diaper changing for babies is like the majority of the day. And you're close to their face. So because they don't have the eyesight in those first few months, they can't look across the room at you while you're waving. They need to be like the distance between your elbow and the tip of your finger to really see your face. And so you get these beautiful opportunities when you're changing a diaper and your eyes light up because you're looking at that little face and you get a little oxytocin hit. That's the love hormone because it just feels so like yummy.

32:50And so I encourage caregiving in that way. Even if you have like all the help in the world and nannies galore, you still are like, I'm going to make sure that sometimes in the day I'm going to, even if your wife is exclusively breastfeeding, you're like, can I please do a pumped bottle once the breastfeeding is established just to like once a day do the caregiving. Because you build that connection and that is so important. Yes, because you just build that connection. It's like, we cannot help it. I'm taking notes, honestly. So say that again. So the act of caregiving, so that's relationship and you're building relationship throughout your child's life.

33:27It's the most protective thing we can do for kids. What does that do for the child? Okay, so in research, this is crazy. This to me is crazy, crazy. There's something called toxic stress, which we talk about like experiencing toxic stressors makes you more likely to have heart disease, diabetes, mental illness, decades later. Toxic stress is like really big stuff, like being in like a concentration camp. Like it's bad, bad, bad. But there's also toxic stress that we think of like witnessing abuse or having an alcoholic parent or who's untreated. Or, I mean, list all the things that are just terrible in the world.

34:09Yeah. Those are toxic stressors. What we think are toxic stressors are often like divorce or having somebody not invite you to a birthday party or not getting the job or something like that. Those are tolerable stressors. Got it. And tolerable stressors, when you have close connected relationships with one adult in your life, ideally, maybe you even get two because you have two parents and they're awesome, is how you build resilience. In the absence of one relationship that's close, they become toxic stressors. So even the bad stuff, like the hideous stuff that we hear about, in the face of when you have one parent who's there for you, I mean, they've looked at even kids who are experiencing, you know, they're in a war.

35:04I mean, this research started in World War II. having one caregiver who is closely connected with you, who you know loves you for exactly who you are, moves the categorization of stressor from toxic to tolerable. And that can build resilience. You don't wish it, but the fact that relationship can build resilience that powerfully to me is mind-blowing. And it's in your control. I saw this amazing TED Talk from this seven-year-old girl. I don't know if you've seen it, talking about peekaboo. Have you seen this? Yes, I haven't seen the TED Talk, but peekaboo is an incredibly important game. Okay, you can explain.

35:37Why is peekaboo such an important game? Watch. I'm gone. I'm back. I'm gone. I'm back. When you have a young child, if you show like a six-month-old your face or like there's something on the table and you cover it with a napkin and they were interested in like a pair of glasses on the table, you cover it with a napkin, they like move on. They don't realize that it's there anymore. They don't have what's called object permanence. Object permanence is your cognitive capacity to understand that things and people, person permanence, exist even when they're not with you. And so when you're nine months old, ten months old, and certainly by 11 months, you have object and person permanence.

36:18So now if I'm a baby looking at the glasses and my dad covers the glasses up with a napkin, I'm going to lift up the napkin and find the glasses. And when my mom or dad goes like this, peekaboo, they're saying, I'm gone. I'm back. I'm gone. I'm back. I always come back. And they're exercising that muscle. And that's why it's such a really important game to play with kids. And that's why they love it. Because it's just this like reminder and it's wild because they're just like, they actually go through this process of development before they're like, you're gone. Wait, what? You're back? Can you imagine?

36:58Isn't that cool? That feeling each time must be instant. It gives you confidence, though, because no one is tricking you or sneaking out on you. It makes you trust. It just teaches you, like you grow that muscle that people still exist even when they go away. Okay, so we have the relationship. That's relationship. And you build relationship by doing things like peekaboo and changing diapers and all. It's not rocket science. You know, it's just the basics.

37:38How do you make sure that you and your partner are still maintaining a relationship? If you are in a relationship, right, with someone, new, old, whatever it may be, having a kid at the beginning. Yeah, it's not great for relationships. It's a real shitter for relationships. it throws everything out how do you make sure that you were still connecting as partners so i i think there's another wonderful thing you can do in advance is first of all expect that it's going to be really really hard and then for that first year especially particularly um for dads even though you're not going to get the attention that you once got it's for this larger greater cause and what you can do is share that focus on the child so that then you can love each other like when you both take the time to see each other is like there's it's really beautiful and sexy to see a good parent of your child like not someone else.

38:39Yeah, that's a little sexy. But like to so and checking in, like, how can I be helpful? And then for your partner, what I think happens a lot, particularly with moms, is we're better. Like we think we've got this and we're better at it. And so like you can't do it as well. So I'm going to just tell you how to do it better. And then eventually you're going to stop doing it because you're like you do it better fine and those are dynamics that you can talk about in advance so that it doesn't happen as often you know because like no you're not going to change the diaper as well maybe that's not going to be your jam but you should it's better for you to do a bad diaper change but you're doing it then the mental load of mom now thinking she's got some time to herself because she's not changing a diaper but she's over focused on like is it perfect is the diaper perfect.

39:35And then it undermines how you feel and your confidence as a dad. So those are the kinds of things that you just talk about in advance. And then I would go as far as saying, make a family value statement. For the two of us, in this start of having a family, what are the three or four most important values that you want to impart on this child? And come together. And when you think about it, what were the ones that you got messaged as a child? and what were the ones that she got messaged and which one of those do you want to keep and which ones are you like that that was not a great message for me wow that communication is so key because what i find especially you know just i see it with our families what you what i find about relationships which is so interesting right i met my wife six years ago now um dating five years um and you fall in love with the person but then there's a whole family behind that that you got to connect with.

40:34And, you know, praise the Lord, thank God that her family's amazing and our family's getting on so well. But our families are different. Of course they are. They didn't grow up in the same household. So they have different values and different ideas and different ways they eat around the table and different ways they cook a chicken. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? Totally. It's so different. So when it comes to parenting styles, you have a way that you have and your partner has a way that they have. How do you blend those together in a perfect way communication communication talking about it in advance and accepting that you're gonna have different styles like what are the styles that you want to draw from from your own families and just talk about it and accept that it's like listen if you want help great say like if you notice that i'm reverting to yelling a lot then not in the heat of the moment but some other time let's talk about it because I kind of want to work on this.

41:30Yeah. But only if you want to work on it. Because otherwise unsolicited advice from a co-parent can turn quickly into resentment. Or the, you know, my parents were better than your parents, so I'm a better parent. So it's all communication and setting your expectations. Like, it's important to have developmentally appropriate expectations, not just for our kids. Like, we don't expect an infant to walk when they're six months old. It's ridiculous. We know that's not going to happen. So I'm not going to like expect it of them. And we have to have developmentally appropriate expectations of our partners.

42:07It's new. We're new. We're born as parents the same day our kids are born. So we're like a baby parent. And so we have to have compassion for each other and for ourselves. And we're going to make mistakes. And we're going to have different styles. But talking about like what and reflecting on, by the way, the second principle, after relationship is a reflection because it really is like what what was you know what's happening here what was my experience how did I like how what what was it like at eight years old to go to boarding school do I want to do that with my kids or do I want to wait a little bit longer for them to cook you know like all of those things stop you from doing things you regret that's so interesting because that reflection is so important i didn't even think of that you've got to think okay right this is what i experienced i didn't like that i don't want to experience that so let's not do that here yeah that's really important to remember it's so small too like it's these are all low lifts you know what i mean like it's not like in order to get really fit you have to like really work out and it's hard but being a good parent is the the lift feels hard it feels really hard because it's a you're you never care about anything more in your life but are you sure because that's my big worry as well that you won't care that i won't care don't worry about it don't worry about it unless you're a sociopath you're going to care even the worst people in the world like everybody cares about their kids except for like even people who are terrible parents don't not care about their kids they think that this is being a good parent it's what they know it's what they came from so but i will tell you when i had when i was going to the hospital for my second baby vivian i was saying goodbye because i had a c-section with my second baby and i was saying goodbye to my oldest daughter um i guess it must have been morning so I was giving her a kiss and a hug.

44:12And in my head, I was like, I will never love this second kid. Because this is my sun, moon, and stars. This is my Penelope. And I go to the hospital. I'm crying because I'm like, how am I going to raise this mediocre kid that's going to be so second best? And then the second she popped out, I was like, well, hello. My heart just grew triple size. Like, you don't, all of a sudden, you're like, I have more capacity than I thought. Wow. It's so wild. But there's no risk. I'm not worried about it at all. You'll worry about it. It can take time. It's not like I had an automatic response, but there are plenty of people, especially for dads, because your value is, it takes longer to have value.

45:01Yeah, for sure, right? You know, that first year, you're not quite as exciting. um but eventually you're like first i think there's this love of like just this is my i my responsibility so maybe you're not thinking about love in that affectionate way you're just like in a state of like survival but eventually you're like oh my god this is my human i i can't believe this and it's incredible it's it's how you know it's look other people's kids aren't that cute sometimes like you're just like i don't get it but your kid is going to be the cutest kid in the world what is the third fourth and fifth principle uh the third is regulation so you know being able to regulate our internal experience of emotions so that we don't just scream and yell and cry and do exactly what we want to do in the moment because we have capacity to have reflected, paused, and been more intentional about our expression of emotions.

46:16It's sort of like the managing the operating system. That's regulation. And brains can't self-regulate completely. They they don't have capacity until they're fully grown. And so, since they're not fully grown until adulthood, it's very hard. That's why, you know, you see toddlers, and it looks like they're having some kind of crazy meltdown over the color of a cup. You know, and it seems so ridiculous, but for their lived experience, it's a threat to their survival. That cup is not the right color. Like, they don't have capacity to stop and say, I didn't want the blue cup, but I know that I'm safe.

47:01You know, that's a self-regulated person who's like, I didn't want the almond milk in my latte. The barista got it wrong, but I'm safe. So I'm not going to like lose my mind. That is interesting. So that's what toddlers do. That's why, because they see it as a threat. Yeah. They go into fight, flight, or freeze, which is what we do when we feel threatened. And what young people think is a threat is different than what an experienced person who can reflect and have like zoom out and their brain doesn't just go into their what you know we used to call lizard brain like your primitive brain and so regulation is hugely predictive of so much and you understand this because you just told me earlier you have ADHD so regulation is harder for you so you have explored this and now at 36 36?

47:54I'm 36. You've been working on your regulation. Yeah, I have to. 100%. It's a harder challenge. It was the one thing that I really had to do. I had to really focus on doing that because I couldn't get anything done otherwise. Exactly. So regulation is really important in parenting because you're lending your nervous system, your more mature nervous system, to children. It's called co-regulation. So when they can't stop crying when they're a baby, you put them against your chest and you sort of rub their backs and inside if you're taking a deep breath your body is sort of lending them the information you're safe because they don't know that they're safe and so it's beautiful and it grows over time that's why just to harp on my morning when my daughter when when i was like snippy she was obviously feeling unsafe you know like something set her off.

48:51And I was not in the mood to make her feel great because I was just, you know, just like bitchy. And it's fine because the other thing that is cool is repair is part of the five principles, which is you're going to disconnect and connect all day, every day. Wow. And the reconnection is repair. And that grows the muscles the way, like, when you work out. You would think I work out all the time the way I'm using these metaphors, but I don't. But I work out just enough to be alive and functioning. But you tear the muscles, like tiny little tears, in order to get bigger muscles. It literally works like going to the gym.

49:32Yes. That's how relationships get strong. So if you didn't have the little tears, the mess ups, the disconnect, same with marriages, by the way, you don't have a strong relationship. You're kidding me. I'm a huge believer because, um, You know, my relationship, we have arguments and we're vocal and we had one in front of Tom. He's literally the other day we had an argument and we're quite open with that. We have an argument. It's not bad, but we just sort of get cross at each other. Yeah. But then we repair and we learn. Yeah. I learn so much from having an argument with my partner. And now you have a stronger relationship.

50:11I need a cooler. That is insane. The problem is if you argue and you don't repair and you don't feel like the love is still there. Because if you think about. That's so interesting. When you. So I live in L.A. Yeah. And there are earthquakes. And when you buy a house in L.A. you have to check for insurance purposes whether it's earthquake safe. I mean also because like you don't want to be in a house that's going to crumble. But you retrofit your house. Yeah. If it's not earthquake safe. you can retrofit the sense that the ground is not going to be shaky and ruin the house if there's an earthquake, a fight.

50:52But if you don't have a strong foundation, the house crumbles. So you need a strong foundation in order to have these fights. And you're like, oh, we're okay because we come back and we repair. And sometimes the repair is like a deep conversation and an apology. And sometimes it's just you're watching TV and you move closer on the couch and you're just like, we don't care. We're good. We love each other. You know, it's like it doesn't always have to be a big thing, but it's always there. And in parent-child relationships, they did these videos and basically found that that connection, attunement, like that beautiful relationship was only there 30 percent of the time or 33 percent of the time.

51:35the rest of the time was rupture and repair rupture and repair over and over so that's those were strong healthy relationships and that to me is so much more doable than thinking that it's always supposed to be great you know and you learn it in your partnership that has made me feel amazing my parents my parents got divorced they never fought my mom said that we never fought if they had a fight, my dad would leave the room.

52:08That is wild. I know. That's why people should know. I don't think people know that. I think there's this misconception that having arguments with your kids or your newborn or getting cross at them or frustrated or whatever, you need to have repair in order to grow. Yeah. It's like the importance of failure in life. You've got to fail in order to understand. Exactly. Otherwise, it's shattering. Like, if you never are allowed to fail, when you do fail, you think the world is over. But you need to have these tiny little failures to know that it's survivable. So what is the final principle? Rules.

52:50Which I don't love the word. Routine. Rules. Okay. Like, routine is also very important, but that is under the category of rules because... The reason I mention routine is I phoned my mom before this. I said, what question do you want me to ask? And she said, I believe in routine. She's right. That's rules. You can't, you can have a great relationship, but if you're permissive, like we're still raising kids. We can't just be like, would you like to go to bed or not? You know, would you like to have Snickers for dinner or broccoli? Because they're children and they're not going to, if they had a fully developed brain and could be adults and make good choices, they would not need us.

53:29so rules are very important and i think of rules as boundaries limits routines things where we're saying hey i love you our relationship is close you still need to go to bed you know so rules are boundaries and limits routines like things that make us feel safe you know what to expect you know what's expected of you that helps kids feel safe so relationships in the absence of rules is just a permissive situation which can actually lead to more anxiety

54:09this has been amazing in every single way and you know it truly has and you're totally forgiven for being so sorry i was so terrible i'm i'm not going to be nice to myself about it you should be we'd like to end the podcast with um a quick fire question you ready for this or questions what's a saying or phrase that always makes you smile or cheers you up i'm not being chased by a shark so good best compliment anyone's ever given you i guess that they feel seen by me what scares you most about yourself i'm lazy no you're not No, I'm lazy. I could sit and watch. I could watch 18 episodes of a show.

54:51You've been so good at everyone. So good at everyone. I don't get bored. I don't get bored. Love that. Last time you cried. I teared up over the election. I'm not going to lie. I'm so embarrassed that I did. I did tear up. Even though I'm like all for elections and like we get what we get and we see how it goes. And this is just one of those things. And I think that we don't need to take the day off afterwards. like all that stuff seemed ridiculous, but I did tear up. What's something you can't let go of? My kids. Good one. What turns you off? Judgment. What turns you on? Thoughtfulness. What do you like most about yourself?

55:32I see something good in every single person. That's beautiful. Last one, my favorite, favorite swear word? Fuck. That's good. That's strong. Just simple. thank you so much for coming on Great Company that was amazing thank you that was amazing thank you so much wow that was good that was so good yeah I can do this without you sometimes yeah that was concerning I can do it without you uh oh it's the last time PJ's ever on the show hold hold hold the disappears no that was fantastic I really love that so many so many lessons learned so many lessons learned she was incredible and Eliza thank you so much for coming on the show she also has a podcast she also has a podcast raising good humans fantastic yes go and take a listen to it we're going to leave it in the show description as well along with our email greatcompany.com and also the tags to our social channels YouTube, TikTok and Instagram at greatcompanypodcast at greatcompanypodcast lovely PJ anything you want to add?

56:38no just that that's it just a little horse alright everybody we hope you enjoyed the show remember to subscribe and we'll see you next episode on another Wednesday of great I know another episode on a Wednesday of great company

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