DR. JULIE: SIGNS THAT SOMEONE IS NOT A TRUE FRIEND

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2:12Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang, and this is Great Company.

2:21Hello, Jorima. Howdy. Partner. Yeah. Okay, so we're cowboys? No, just like that. Oh, interesting. Yeah. It's interesting that that one place in America, don't ask me to be more specific than that, have their own way of saying hello. Howdy. That's not interesting at all. It is interesting. I've been to Wyoming. I've been to Wyoming. Is that where it's? What? Well, Wyoming is very country, as in cowboy country. And so I've been there. I've been on a ranch. I spent two weeks there with my dad. Did you say howdy? I said howdy, and I rode a horse and ate hash. We're in London. what's the most London way of saying hello?

2:56Oh I know. Good aye. No that's Australian. That's Australian. Alright mate. Oh that's good. I was just going to say hello. Alright mate hello. That's probably the most. Alright. Alright how you doing? Do you know it's weird because you say how are you doing twice? Like are you alright? How are you doing? Alright how you doing? Hey by the way who are you? Jemima. I'm producer Jemima. This is producer Jemima. I'm Jamie. I'm the host of Great Company and this is our show. Welcome back to all of you OG listeners and if you're a new listener hello jemima producer jemima over here once you called pj there you go i got that first and one of our guests who's coming up actually we were we came in and we recorded with calling me pj we're not gonna say who it is but he called her pj and she was over the moon so if you ever see jemima call her pj but today's guest i'm very very very very excited about because we have dr julie on i've tried to get dr julie on for ages i'm a huge fan of hers if you don't know who dr Julie is she is a psychologist um she is a doctor on social media she talks a lot about mental health and how you help yourself through different things she's very into self-help and huge following online yeah she's written books which have been incredible and her new book which is coming out is called open when it's so cool and she's going to explain about it but it's very good so if you're feeling anxious open when you're feeling anxious yeah if you're feeling tired open when you're feeling tired it's very very good so you can go to your certain chapter when you're feeling a certain way it's amazing yeah no she's fantastic and she's really really big on tiktok and one of her main things going on to tiktok was because often therapy can be very difficult to access for loads and loads of people so one of the reasons why she wanted to put like handy little tips and things for helping people you know if you are experiencing some anxiety or or heartbreak, or anything, or difficulty in relationships and with friends.

4:49She wanted everyone to feel it. Yeah, she wanted everyone to have access to this information because it is life-changing. She's amazing in so many ways. And these are the episodes that I absolutely love because you can take so many things from it. It is going to be amazing. So I think we should stop talking. Yeah, let's get her in. By the way, quickly, if you haven't subscribed to the show already, please do. That's so rich of you. Let's stop talking and then he carries on talking. I'm asking people to do something. Go on, go on. and if you want to send us an email we'd love to hear from you greatcompanypodcast at jampopproductions.co.uk and you can check out our DMs you can check out our DMs you can slide into our DMs you can't check out our DMs you can't but we do and you can send us messages there we want to hear from you guys because we absolutely love it we're trying to build this amazing community and so many of you are listening but we want to hear from more of you so please please get in touch we'd love to hear what you think of the show okay are you ready for this?

5:37I'm ready please enjoy this episode of Great Company with Dr. Julie Hi, I'm Dr. Julie and I'm in great company.

5:51Can I just say before we start, I am the biggest fan of yours. Thank you. I think what you do and how you help people is just incredible. I really, truly do. And I'm not just saying that to butter you up before we start, but it really is. You blew up massively on social media. I mean, I was looking again at your TikTok and your Instagram. I mean, the views that you get are crazy and people absolutely love it. And then you wrote your debut book, Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before? Which, the biggest seller in that year, 2022. Yeah. Yeah. Which blew my mind because I kind of... It doesn't blow my mind.

6:33It's unbelievable. I had that feeling. I can see you slightly reserved as I said it. Oh, it's still a cringe moment because when you write something and you put everything into something, I remember having that feeling of, I don't want it to do badly, but I also don't really want anyone to read it. And it's just that vulnerability, I guess, of kind of putting yourself out there again. Maybe it's the sort of the introvert side. And I had images in my mind of, can you remember the Alan Partridge episodes where he's trying to flog his book before they pulp it? And I was thinking, oh God, I'm going to be sitting in the local shopping centre trying to flog books.

7:08and I'm really glad that didn't happen. Do you know what it makes me, I can imagine so many people listening now, it's going to make them feel so much better that someone like yourself also has those fears and there's imposter syndrome and everything's flooding through. Yeah, the idea that there are lots of skills you can learn and tools at your disposal that you can use to help get you through human moments but it doesn't stop you from being human and having those human moments. So, and really what happened with the first book was, yes it was it was it was incredible the the people that got in touch and said it's helped me with this it's helped me with that and i had some lovely stories of people who were carrying the book around with them to help them through really difficult moments and and that was kind of given to me as a compliment and all i could think of was oh i didn't really write it for those moments it was more of a set of you know uh things that people learn to help you get through later on when things get bad but you know if you're in the thick of it and you're trying to work out which way is up.

8:05You don't want me to come along and say, oh, you know, if you'd have just learned mindfulness six months ago, you'd be all right now. You don't need that, do you? You need, you know, when you're in the moment, you need someone to grab you by the shoulders, look you in the eye and say, I know a way through. Follow me. Right. This is, you know, here we are. This is what you need to focus on. And here's the next step you need to take to get through this moment.

8:29I remember again, I keep, but I spoke about this before, but the, I was really struggling with anxiety, terrible. And I struggled with anxiety throughout my 20s. I joined a television show. It was a reality show. I didn't really understand what was going on. Life was all over the place. I drank a lot to cover up any emotion. And I got myself into a really sort of sticky situation where, you know, to the point where I had depersonalization, like it was not great. And I said nothing to anybody. Nothing. Nobody. Nobody. Didn't tell my mom. Didn't tell. I always used to say that I feel, oh, do you ever feel nervous?

9:08Do you ever feel like you're scared? That's how I'd say it. And then we go, no, I don't feel scared. You don't ever feel like you're scared because I was trying to understand what anxiety was. And I, and every single time I talk about it, I even get emotional. It's so strange. But my great friend, Toby, who was best man at my wedding, I decided to tell him and I phoned him up and I remember I was pacing up and down the street and I was thinking, okay, I'm going to tell him, I'm going to tell him, I'm going to tell him. So I phoned him up and I said, hey, I call him Bubble, hey Bubble. He goes, hey, you okay?

9:38And I go, well, not really. And I sort of broke down and he went, what's the matter? And I went, I don't know, but something's wrong with me. And he went, don't worry, we'll go through it together. And it was this insane echo back. That was all I was desperate for. For someone to throw a tennis ball and it would bounce back towards me and I'd get something back. And my biggest upset is when you realize that people don't reach out. That connection is lost because you're either scared or you're nervous, you don't have anyone, you're stuck in a situation where you can't. And it's so upsetting that actually that human connection and talking about it and releasing your emotions is so, it's so important.

10:14Yeah. And that person doesn't even need to have the skills to solve it for you. That's the interesting part, isn't it? That just knowing that someone is going to walk alongside you through it is everything. You know, in therapy, I don't fix anyone. They do that work themselves. I'm just willing to hold that space for them and guide them as they move through it. And, you know, that's our social side, isn't it? We just need each other, but we find such strength in that. So, yeah, that's what this is really about was just, you know, offering some words to people when they're in that moment. And, yeah.

10:53Yeah. You, and we're going to go into the book in your chapter, I can't wait, but you talk about these amazing things, right? Which is where you almost say you lean into things. So people talk about affirmations or always talking positively about yourself. And your argument is, yes, that's a good thing, but not all the time. Yeah. I think I advocate for honesty, but respectful honesty. So, you know, I'll often talk to people in sessions about, you know, people will just hold on to that self-critical side. So, you know, they think that being really hard on themselves has given them all their drive and all their achievements and all their productivity.

11:30And so if they're nice to themselves, that will somehow kind of zap all their drive for life and they'll just become nothing and they'll have no drive to do anything. So they, you know, hold on to that idea that they need to be really hard on themselves. Whereas if you're respectful, of yourself and you talk to yourself in a way that is honest. So there's this kind of difference between being really hard on yourself and being indulgent and saying, well, you know, you're fine. You're absolutely fine as you are. Actually, we don't trust the friends in our lives that are like that. We trust the people who say, yeah, do you know what?

12:11This isn't the best thing for you, or here's what you should be doing. You messed up there, but we're going to go for it together. so there's something about honesty that comes with respect at the same time so it's not the person who hammers you into the ground for making a mistake but it's also not the person who denies the fact that you've made one it's the person who says okay here we are this hasn't gone as you predicted you didn't anticipate this but let's make it better here's here's where we focus next so so you have three kids yeah do you do that with your kids do you say when they've done something wrong or they need to change it, you say, hey, this is probably not right, but we can change it and make it better by doing this way.

12:53Yeah. Yeah. I think I try to do that with myself first. Great. And so that then, and I just never claim to be the perfect parent at all. There are moments where, you know, if they've done something wrong that I'm not going, okay, here's my therapeutic approach um you know uh being realistic about it but as a i think it's a general feel for things that um it gets me if if i hear any of my kids speaking about themselves in a way that's sort of full of contempt or you know vicious you know that sort of um heard my 12 year old girl mention for the first time i'd ever heard it where she expressed discomfort or dissatisfaction with her appearance as a mother that just got me and it's natural part of growing up right it's normal to have that but my urge was to jump in and be like no yeah no you are perfect as you are and but there's a sort of one of the sort of therapeutic techniques we use in the room with someone is guided discovery so you'll never sat there trying to convince you know if you came into the room so let's try that if I was going to do if we're going to do this with each other if you're going to play it towards me how would that work?

14:14Yeah so if you came into the room and said you know I hate myself I'm not going to sit there and say here's a half dozen reasons why you shouldn't I'm going to talk you through or you're going to do the talking but I'm going to just guide that conversation to allow you to explore that either way and whether it's warranted I want you to discover that that's not warranted right if i tell you that you know you shouldn't think that that's not going to help you and you're not going to suddenly not think it just because i told you not to um you need to discover that for yourself and come to your own conclusions about that that is so interesting but so that that instant validation so i say i i feel i don't think i look good at the moment and you say no you look great because of this and this that will validate me for a bit but I won't actually believe it after a while that will just go in a second so that self-discovery you have to do yourself it's like it's like me giving the answer to a math exam but not understanding how the equation works yeah exactly it won't stick unless you kind of have come to that rationale yourself or yeah um wow I didn't even think of that that's so interesting because I think we seek validation all the time but actually it needs to come from they always there's always this sort of hypothesis which is like you know you've got to heal the inside out right but if you're just being validated all the time yeah you're great you're fine that's not actually healing it yeah and it's a bit like um the value of sport for kids right you know if you you could tell your child that you know um you're a winner and and it's you know it's okay to lose but until they've had experiences of winning and losing and getting through it they're never really prepared for that so that's where things like sport and stuff are great because you get to kind of it's only through action your brain learns through evidence so action is your kind of you know super uh what's the word kind of uh secret weapon really that is good yeah your superpower that's the word i'm looking for um that's going to kind of enable you to really discover things for yourself and then hold on to it okay so if we are in a relationship which lots people listening probably are and they're struggling to communicate with their partner or their partner is not really understanding what their partner is trying to tell them.

16:32How do you fix that? How do you make sure that communication works? Because I always believe that relationships, unless there's cheating or whatever go on, but relationships break down because the communication is right. One side is not understanding the other. So how do you sort that? I think something that probably goes wrong is when people avoid the difficult conversations um that if something if we know something's going to bring up emotion or it's going to be a little bit testy or heated then we avoid it and we cover it over and and those sorts of things that tendency to do that is a bit like trying to hold air underwater like it will always find its way to the surface but when you least expect it so as you know if you're um often do this um exercise in therapy actually with people where um we can probably do it with the book actually so if you put your hand on the other side and just push against me so if you imagine that feels great if you imagine that is a kind of a bunch of feelings or issues that you don't really want to deal with it's uncomfortable and so and so you don't right you just hold it at arm's length you can carry on with the rest of your day and you're pushing it away so we're holding so for people listening where you're pushing one side of the book I'm pushing the other side of the book and we have the book I'm all the I'm all the shit you don't want to have I'm all the the thoughts and the feelings or the difficulties in your relationship that you don't really want to deal with yeah and I'm trying to be in your head and so you have to keep pushing back to keep me at bay correct so now if we said okay end of this go about the rest of your day and I'm just gonna be doing this all day and it would be difficult to kind of focus on stuff but also when you get tired or you let your guard down this is going to come flying over and hit you in the face.

18:11So that's when all the difficult emotions suddenly hit us and we feel absolutely overwhelmed because we've been holding it back for so long. And then something's happened, let our guard down and it's just like opened the floodgates. Right. So now if we take that, and this time, if you just hold your hand out and it's the same stuff you don't want to have, same uncomfortable stuff, but I'm just going to hold it there for you. You're just going to just carry it with you. So if now we said, okay, end of the session, you go about the rest of your day, but you just keep that with you. That would feel fundamentally different, right?

18:42It feels different. Yeah. So you would be more able to engage in conversation, do your work, your arm's going to be less tired. And you still get to choose to look down. It's still there, but you get to choose when you consider it and when you think about it and when you work on it, but you're also free to do all the other stuff. Whereas, you know, it's not waiting to hit you in the face when you, as soon as you let your guard down. So it's that kind of difference of if you're not pushing stuff away, if you're willing to hold it, it doesn't fight against you so much. But Julie, but some people find it so tricky to have those conversations.

19:17Oh yeah. And it's so hard, right? Because it's like, I don't think I can talk about it. I don't think I can say it. Someone once told me the best way to have a conversation with your partner is to lie on a bed and look at the ceiling so you don't face each other. Yeah. Or go for a walk, that kind of thing. Sometimes that can help if the intimacy side of it is tricky or kind of overwhelming, that can be really helpful. But also it's really helpful to go into it knowing what your goal is. And by that, I mean, often disruptions in relationships, they give you the sense that you want to win. You just want them to understand your point of view and then it will all be all right.

19:58And they feel exactly the same way. And so if the aim is to win, the relationship loses because the only person that feels good in victory and looks good in victory or feels that they look good in victory is you. So if you win the argument, you feel fantastic. And actually the person you're trying to have a relationship with feels crushed and that does nothing for your relationship. What they get is a sense of how he was willing to completely annihilate my self-esteem in order to feel like he was right. Or, you know, he was willing to really break my heart in order to win this argument. And that stays and that kind of chips away at trust and the ability to connect in the future.

20:41So when we sort of enter into those difficult conversations or arguments with the set idea that, okay, I married this person, I want to have a really good relationship, an improving relationship with them in the years ahead. Actually, our goal here is resolution and finding a compromise. And that's going to be really difficult because I'm really angry at this person and they've done this and they've done that. But let's, you know, and also kind of seeing it as it's you two against the problem rather than you against them. It just, it changes the dynamic of how you're going to approach the problem.

21:17Judy, you've just changed my whole perception. I'm going to be honest, I had an argument with my wife today. I had a big argument. It wasn't my fault. We woke up this morning. We were renovating a house. We had to go, God, the first world problems. We had to go and look at some marble. And she was very stressed. And it wasn't my fault, right? It actually generally wasn't my fault. And so I wanted to try and prove to her that it wasn't my fault. So she got cross at me. Hang on, she's getting cross. This is unfair. This is not my fault. I need to win this argument. to prove to her that this isn't my fault.

21:56And you're right. And I do. I win the argument because it's not my fault. And what I get from her is an apology. And oh, I'm sorry. That doesn't make, it makes me feel a bit better because I've won. But actually, you're so right. What is the issue here surrounding it? What is the resolution? We're married. It's okay. She's obviously struggling with something there. Me wanting to win the argument because I feel like she's, that's the total wrong attitude to have. And yet it's so natural, such a natural response to feeling like you're being attacked is the defenses go up, right? And that's where, you know, when we have an issue with the other person, going in with the criticism or the attack or, you know, if any of that is laced with contempt, like you always do this or you never do that, then the other person immediately, you know, the emotional shutters come down because you're being personally, you know, your character is being attacked.

22:48and so you're just in defense mode because it triggers shame and when you feel shame you are just defending yourself you're just protecting yourself you can't really do anything else it's on impulse so that's when you kind of then you go back and bite back and then they bite back and so it is natural but sometimes just having that awareness of what's my goal here I want to spend my life with this person let me take two minutes out of the room to just recalibrate and think about that and then I can come back in with something a bit different. Why as humans do we We have that sort of innate ability to avoid fault.

23:23We never want it to be, it's within us, right? We want to blame others because if we blame ourselves, that's wrong. So we try and find blame wherever we can. Why do we do that? Because it's painful, isn't it? No one ever wants to feel like, you know, it's so psychologically threatening to feel like you might not be enough. And, you know, it's really painful. And when you then, that triggers shame. There's no learning to be had in shame. It's just threatening. It's just protect, just shut down, withdraw. And all of that leads to kind of negative outcomes. So we try to defend ourselves and we try to, you know, convince the people.

24:03That's natural, right? Convince the people in your life, you're okay, you're enough. And in the same respect, we're trying to convince ourselves of that too, that we're enough. Because if you don't believe that, you're going to be in turmoil, absolute turmoil. So with your partner, with your husband, when you have an argument... I'm always right. There we go. Different for us. Do you think he's listening now? And he's like, hang on a second. You never do that. You never admit. I mean, what I'm saying is do you practice what you preach or try to? Try to. But also, I never want to give the impression to people that because I've read the books and know the stuff, that that makes it easy to do.

24:46or that that makes you sort of somehow more than human. So part of this is you learn how to deal with relationships early in life based upon the people you're in relationships with as a child. And that becomes your template that you then take into adulthood. And so when something happens that feels familiar in your mind, so your brain is constantly taking information from the outside world, but it's not only taking that information, is trying to make meaning out of it. And so to do that, it will take memories from the past, past experiences when you have felt similar. Give me an example. So let's say as a child, you were always criticized for academic imperfections or something like that.

25:39And then as an adult, you're sat there with your wife and you're doing your accounts or something and you make a mistake. and she mocks you for doing it, then it will trigger that really painful feelings that you had as a child of kind of just never being good enough. And so your reaction, even though it might have been a little, you know, she probably thought this is just a bit of banter, just, you know, he might even laugh at the reaction. It might trigger such an emotional response because your brain has made meaning that perhaps isn't in this situation, but it feels like something that felt that happened back then so you'll have this big emotional reaction and and she'll go what happened there what you know why did that you know push a button uh she didn't see it coming because um your brain is making meaning of it based on past experiences that you've had that felt similar wow so that child within us that inner child doesn't go it's it's hard to heal that inner child in some ways so you've got yeah you've got a series of kind of templates for so So all your experiences as a child, you're absorbing all that and you're learning, okay, when this happens, do that.

26:45And that leads to that outcome. Or, you know, you're learning how to survive relationships as a child who has no control over them, but desperately needs them to survive. So you develop kind of survival strategies in complex and difficult relationships as a child. And then those templates carry on into adulthood. So, but they're less helpful often in adulthood because the relationships are different. You're not child to adult, you're adult to adult and you have responsibilities and you've got to compromise and those sorts of things. So then they become disruptive and then we have to kind of, you can't necessarily unlearn or remove those templates that you have.

27:25You can become aware of what they are, become aware of when they're detrimental and then make adjustments. You know, you can keep learning so you can develop new patterns with your partner and they can override the old ones. If someone's listening now, right, and they're recognizing that perhaps they're being triggered or they're having conversations with their partner or their friends and they're bringing up emotions and they're listening, they suddenly go, oh, I'm making the connection from when I was a child to now and maybe it's bringing up those emotions. How do we stop the cycle? What tips would you give to someone listening who is in that sort of cycle and can't get out of it?

28:00So it happens really gradually. So what happens in therapy is people will come along and talk about the things that have been happening. And you literally map it out on paper. So you'll go, okay, this happened, then you felt this. And so because of that feeling, you did that to cope with the feeling. And it made the feeling go away, but then the feeling came back. So you did that thing again and you went around the cycle again. So you kind of map out these cycles that you get stuck in. And what you find is week after week, the details of the cycle change, but the cycle is the same generally. And what you're doing over those weeks is you're building up this familiarity with the cycles you get stuck in.

28:37this. You know, when you think, I do this same thing over and over again, and I don't know why, I just find myself doing the same thing. And when you kind of look into it in therapy like that, you start to notice it in the moment. So in therapy, you're doing it in hindsight, you're looking back at the week gone by. But then when you're in it in real life, you start to go, oh, I know where I am on the cycle. We've done this 10 times, I know. And then what you get is this moment of opportunity to either go around the same cycle again or do something different because you would have talked about what the exit is and where you break it.

29:16Sometimes you'll go around the same old cycle again and sometimes you won't. That bit is hard to take that different direction because it's so easy because what you're used to, the familiar, that cycle, that's easier to stay in that, right? Yeah. So you go with the familiar rather than something new or different that feels unpredictable, even if the familiar is destructive. It's a coping strategy that probably worked back then. So something you did as a child, if someone who has an avoidant kind of style, avoidant attachment style. So if you're an avoidant attachment style, you maybe struggle with intimacy or you pull back and withdraw from people.

30:05And it might be that in your childhood, you didn't have physical affection or your caregivers were unpredictable. And so actually it felt unsafe to be very close to them. And so it felt safer to pull back. And then in adulthood, that might be kind of difficult for your relationships. So, you know, if you've got that sort of avoidance strategy that came from childhood, in adulthood, it might not work. Does that make sense? Makes total sense. I don't think I answered your question. No, you did. No, no, no, you answered that perfectly. That's exactly what we're saying. So, okay, so going into that sort of relationships as well, right?

30:50if you're in a relationship and you're going around in the same cycle where you're either constantly meeting people and it doesn't feel right and you're breaking up with them and you're just going, I just don't feel like I'm lucky in love. Is that the wrong partnership or is perhaps something with you in relationships that is making these relationships not work because you're doing the same thing you're stuck in the same cycle yeah and and the thing is it's it's one thing to um just think well you know i've had bad luck and you know men are whatever and and therefore you know and then feel a victim of it but it's really really interesting the the progress you can make when you're brave enough to look at your part in that cycle so you know are you accepting certain types of behavior from the beginning that if you can pull back you might be able to protect yourself in the future and are you um uh you know not connecting with certain people that would be more healthy for you to get in a relationship with um Because you're following that pattern of, you know, you seek relationships that feel familiar, not that feel healthy.

32:15I had Alain de Bottin on the podcast and he said we look for familiarity rather than happiness. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because anything that's unpredictable or novel is stressful and, you know, and dangerous potentially as a threat. So, yeah, even if you've had a kind of, you know, destructive relationships, you will have that natural inclination to go for something that feels similar, not on a conscious level. And that's the thing. It's not about fault or, you know, you're in this place because it's your fault. It's not true at all. It's how we're set up to, you know, you get your templates early in life or what to expect from other people.

33:01And then why would you know any different? You know, why would you have a template for what a healthy relationship is if you haven't had one yet? So, you know, often that's then about sort of working on creating, you know, this idea of what a healthy relationship would look like or one that felt safe and then working towards it. If someone has been in a relationship and they're that type of person who fears abandonment and worry about people leaving and then suddenly that person leaves and they can't deal with the heartbreak. Because I know so many people listening are dealing with heartbreak or have dealt with it and not over.

33:40How do you get through that? It's a grieving process. I think people talk about grief when someone dies, but you also grieve lots of different endings you can grieve. So there's that kind of process of yearning for someone, so you'll miss them. and it's really key to remember that missing someone doesn't mean that relationship was right for you you can miss someone for all the good parts of it and still recognize that it wasn't for you and like we were saying about even uh you know your sort of early adulthood there might be parts of that that now you're you know a responsible adult with you know wife and kids and a job and everything that you you might miss some of that some aspects of that the freedoms or the fun that kind of thing but it doesn't mean you want it back so it's really important to kind of distinguish that that it's okay to yearn for something um without stepping back into something that wasn't for you um but also to kind of shift expectations that uh that you should be over it by now like if you if you feel something go ahead and feel it it's all right you just allow that to be it's natural it's okay to feel the way you're feeling yeah whatever it is if you're still missing someone that's all right yeah that can happen with friends as well where when you when you fall out with a friend that's almost sometimes worse than the breakup especially if they've been a friend for a long time yeah i think it comes with a lot of guilt doesn't it as well because we have we grew up with that kind of idea that you know friends are forever and that kind of thing and these sort of hollywood has a lot to answer for with these kind of stories of like you know friendships that just endure for life and and those do exist but there are also other friendships that come and go and that's okay too um or there are times when you realize as you get older maybe your values change or their values change and it no longer fits and and it's okay to um call it a day if if a friendship is unhealthy for you or if if someone is causing you harm in that in that friendship if it's not if it's not working for you it's okay to pull back from it that brings on to your post that you did which is um three signs your friends are not really your friends what are those three signs oh god that's a question isn't it um can i remember what the video was i guess there are lots of signs that a friend might not have your best interests at heart.

36:12And the general idea is that you sometimes notice the signs in subtle, they're so subtle that it's difficult to distinct, you know, there's not a clear kind of like, this friend is rubbish now. It's a sort of, that felt a bit odd. Or you walk away thinking, do they really like me? Or are they going to be talking about me now? Or, you know, you get excluded from a couple of things and, oh, okay. So it's always really subtle stuff and you start to question yourself and doubt yourself about whether you did something that the others were judging or whether you sharing that personal victory was too braggy because the response was cold or these kind of things.

36:58So you start to really question yourself. And I think that's a key thing is if you're unable to share good or bad news because of the reaction. So let's say you tried to share something, you know, you're struggling and there's some, you know, something's happened in your life that's difficult. And really what you're seeking is some connection and support. And instead it gets slammed down with, oh, well, I've got, I've, you know, worse has happened to me or, and so your bid for connection is squashed, or maybe you're sharing good news and something really great's happened to you. And, you know, oh, you know, I started this podcast and it's done really well.

37:31and then what you find is it gets shut down or they don't want to talk about it or you get a sort of compliment that feels like it's laced with insult or contempt and you come away just feeling terrible. I think they're just indications. They're not indications necessarily that you should just end the friendship but they're indications that maybe that person's struggling with this thing or if it happens there a long period of time, maybe they're struggling with me. Maybe we don't have the connection that we did before or maybe they don't have my best interests at heart. That's a really tough thing to work out.

38:10And also, we're taught about breakups with individuals, right? With partners, with love interests. But when it comes to friendships, no one teaches you how to break up with a friend. So how do you break up with a friend? Well, I guess it depends on the friend, doesn't it? And the situation. and the connection that you have. Some endings will be big and emotional and have that big conversation and others will be friends that you've had because you were in the same places at the same times and so you're able to just part ways without a big confronting conversation about what's gone wrong. Yeah, I think it depends on the situation with that.

38:54If someone listening to this right now is maybe their son or their daughter or their friend or their husband or wife or cousin is acting distant. Maybe they're anxious. Maybe you think they're depressed. What kind of signs could you look out for? So if someone else is kind of struggling or if their mental health is deteriorating, I think if you know someone well, you'll notice certain changes. changes. So, you know, it might be that, um, they stopped coming out to see you. So maybe you have a social thing and they start avoiding it or they start pulling out a last minute or, um, they, you know, stop calling and they used to call or, um, you know, there'll be certain changes.

39:43If you know someone really well, the changes can be quite subtle, but you'll pick up on it more if you know them more if that makes sense it's easier with closer friends isn't it um but the exact changes differ between individuals and dependent on what's going on with them so something like they're not turning up to socials might be because they're struggling with anxiety or maybe they're really low and so they're not feeling able to kind of socialize and things um and in some ways i think it's just checking in isn't it it's just no sometimes you'll notice something and it'll be nothing and it or it won't be the you know a big deal but the fact that you checked in is everything you just okay you know you didn't come to the last couple of socials just want to see if you're right and you know that means everything to someone whether they were struggling or not so um but often i think we're so worried about saying the wrong thing that we don't say anything at all.

40:43And so kind of leaning into that awkward moment of, we might end up having a really emotional conversation here. Am I braced for it? It's, yeah, it's so valuable if you can, if you can be brave enough to start that conversation. And if you're in that thick of it, if you're in that dark cloud moment, you're feeling anxious or depressed. My big thing is that you can get through it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I want people to know is that you really can get through it, can't you yeah in my work over the year when i was in the nhs actually i worked in sort of um acute services where people were really really poorly and um i've i've honestly worked with people who you just you wouldn't believe you know if this if their lives were for a movie you wouldn't believe it could be true and they're in such a terrible place that you can't imagine they're going to get through it and then you work and you work and you work and it starts to change and things start to get better and so I've seen people go from ultimate darkness to building a life for themselves and so I know that it's possible um convincing other people of that is is difficult because when you're in it you can't see that right and um and so sometimes the work is just about kind of almost a bit of a lighthouse thing you know where you're just casting a light to okay I can't I can't get in there and drag you out of the ocean, but I can just show you where the shore is and I can show you that it's there.

42:10I love that. That you've got to swim. That's a great analogy. Yeah. So it's... Because it's important, right? Because I think, I always say that when you're feeling very blue or you're feeling very anxious, very down, it's a grey sky, but there's blue sky above the grey clouds. You just have to find a way of getting back to the blue sky. Yeah. And you have to trust that it's there even when you can't see it. um and actually that reminds me of something i kind of conversations used to have with people that um that even when you know when people are in really dark places and and they they can't see they don't feel hopeful about a good outcome um i sort of ask people to to trust me to hold that hope for them that i've seen people come through it and so when you're feeling like it can't happen Just trust me that I can hold that hope for you until you can start to see it yourself.

43:05Because it is hard when you're in the moment. You can't be convinced that it's all going to be okay when you're in it because it feels awful. One of your chapters in your book, which is amazing, I'm going to get it exactly right, is when you want to be less awkward around people. Yes. Social anxiety is such a huge thing at the moment. Yeah. And I think it's a fault of social media because we spend more time on social media and less time interacting with each other. Yeah. How do we accept social anxiety? How do we feel less awkward around people? I think to begin with, in order to build your kind of social confidence, you have to be willing to have the awkward moments.

43:58So if you think, well, I'm not going to be sociable and interact with people until I feel confident, you will just never get there. So, you know, the most confident people, it's not like they've worked out how to avoid awkward moments. It's that they kind of don't focus on it, that they're not just focused on not having those moments it's that they they're focused on I'm going to get to know this person and I'm going to find out how they are and I'm going to build a connection with them and and if there are sort of awkward moments along the way I know I can get over those that's fine you know we'll just leap over it and and move on to the next bit and so if if you're really you know sometimes if you're so focused on the thing you're trying to avoid you end up creating it in you know if you're if you're going into a social situation or just trying not to be awkward um then you end up feeling exactly that um so i think yeah some of it is um but also when it's something like a fear like social anxiety the way that we work on that is not sort of flooding you with the the scariest thing to begin with you you literally create a list of situations that feel anxiety provoking and you know in in order of how intensely scary they are you know the worst thing at the top might be i don't know going to a wedding or something and then the thing right at the bottom might be you know chatting to the person in your local convenience store you start with that and you expose yourself to it bit by bit yeah yeah so you do that you have you know a slightly challenging but achievable experience um you reflect on that learn from it you gain this kind of dopamine hit or a little bit of momentum a little bit of drive to go and do the next thing and then and then once you do that you get another little achievement and then you do so it's very gradual step by step um but what often what you find is when you create that list you never really have to do the scariest things because as you move your way up the list you're building this confidence in yourself that for good or bad, whatever happens, you can survive it.

46:08And so you build this sort of confidence then that makes those ones at the top of the list kind of fall away. What I'm really taking from this conversation is that you can change your makeup. That's the most important thing that if you feel like, oh, I'm just socially anxious, oh, I'm just anxious, oh, I'm just depressed. No, you can change that. You can improve those things. Yeah. And it's not like you kind of eradicate that experience, you add to it. Sure. Because that's so valuable, isn't it? If you are, you know, the life and soul of a party, but you know what it's like not to feel that, you know what it's like to feel terrified walking into a room, that's going to make you such a nicer person to the people who feel terrified walking into the room, isn't it?

46:50Because you know what it's like to be them. And so, you know, you're much more likely then to use your new skills to make people feel welcome and develop really nice connections with them and stuff like that.

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48:47What I really love is that you're writing books because you want them to make a difference. You want them to help. You're doing it for a real purpose. And your new book, Open When, is so great. because when you do, you have those moments, and especially when you're in the thick of it, when that dark cloud is on your head and you don't know which way to go, you can open up your book and you can look at the chapters and you can find the thing that relates to you. You know, when your friends are not your friends, when you want to be less awkward, you can find these little chapters and you can turn to it and get help.

49:19When you compare yourself and come up short, it's the first one. Yeah. Why do you pick that as the first chapter? And secondly, how do we stop comparing ourselves to everyone else? You don't. You don't. Don't tell me that. But the thing is, again, comparison is natural and inbuilt in you. You're a social being. It's important to know. If you live in a community, it's important to know whether you're measuring up and whether you're doing the right thing in that community by the other people. and so comparison can be really really useful if we're doing it right but what happens is we make the wrong comparisons that then lead us to just turmoil and and and that's the way of working out whether the comparisons you're making are useful to you or not it's how you feel afterwards so explain that to me so if you're sat on socials and you're looking at some i don't know movie star and comparing yourself to them someone who is completely different to you someone you have no idea what their real life is like or how awful it might be behind the scenes you're comparing your life where you're in full view of all the you know worst bits of it and you're comparing that to the best bits of someone across the world um you're probably going to feel like shit after that and you're going to feel terrible and and that's a sign that not that your life is awful and you're worthless it's a sign that you made a bad comparison that doesn't really help you um but let's say you're i don't know you're trying to master podcasts and interviews and you want to get better at a certain thing and doing something in a certain way would really help you know be a really helpful comparison to find someone you knew that had a kind of you know it along the similar lines in a similar sort of journey, but they liked to do something in interviews that you thought, oh, that's brilliant.

51:21I want to learn that. It's very specific. It's based on your goals and you improving yourself. And so you can make a comparison about, I do it this way, but I like how they do it. So how can I learn from that? So that envy becomes inspiration and it can be constructive because it leads to action. Yeah. So you gain from that. So good. Yeah, you gain from that experience rather than just, you know, feeling terrible. Because we all feel envious. Yeah. Of course we do. But you change that to make it inspirational and you use it for your own tool. Yeah, yeah. So you can have that feeling. You can decide whether, okay, if I go down this route, that's not really helpful to me.

51:58But if I go down this route, that's helpful to me. Social media allows us to pretty much Google anything. Yeah. Diagnosis, whatever. However, how dangerous is that on TikTok where you can just basically self-diagnose yourself all the time? Yeah, I think to a certain degree, it's been helpful that people have been able to start conversations they would never have dared to have in person. And so they've become aware enough that they then go and see a doctor. I get lots of messages where people say, oh, I saw your video. So I started therapy six weeks in and it's helping so much. Thanks. And that's when you think, yes.

52:41Perhaps the other stuff where there's people online that don't have any kind of training or real education in mental health, but they're kind of giving an opinion. and then someone else across the world is looking at that and seeing it as if it has kind of authority or you know is a fact then that can lead to all kind of all kinds of problems I guess for those people but that's what you have right if you have an open marketplace it's similar to real life though isn't it right so if you're struggling you get the choice whether you come see like a trained psychologist or you could go and get tarot reading or you could go and get some Reiki or you could you know go and get hypnotized so you have choices and I guess that's a reflection of the fact that social media is this kind of free marketplace where all sorts of people are allowed to be on there yeah whether you I think that's where we have to kind of teach people and arm them up to the hilt with that kind of critical thinking where you don't take everything you see as fact you question everything even the stuff from trained people right and all scientists like you know being being able to question what you're hearing and get a second opinion and a third opinion and and do that's just i just think it's one of the most important skills we're going to have going forward.

54:12If someone's going to read one chapter from the book, which one would you tell them to pick? Whatever they're going for at that moment. I think that's the idea of it, isn't it? That whatever feels relevant to you, it just gives you that insight into what a psychologist might say or a few things to consider. and often it's about channeling your the focus of your attention so that you you know the way forward what have you learned about when writing the book yourself um well do you know what i had i had um uh like a health scare through the summer where i was diagnosed with cancer and i in at that point i was a couple of weeks away from handing in the book and i was so i was reading through the chapters and kind of editing and stuff.

55:01And a couple of days after, I was so determined to get this book in and just get it out of the way so I could deal with this situation. And I just happened to be reading through the chapter on fear. And now I'm in fear. I'm looking at it thinking, well, no, this is not what I need to hear right now. So I deleted the whole thing and wrote it for me. so yeah and and in that sense I I realized in that moment of just terrible fear for my life I I needed a really hard line this is what you need to focus on we have to get through this and we have to get our children through it and there's no messing around here so the chapter on fear is actually probably a bit different to how other people might approach it.

55:55It's quite hard. It's stuff in there about not being the prey, being the predator. Step four, get on your front foot. This is what you need to focus. Fear is here and actually it's going to help you because you increase your level of alertness so that you're ready to bring your A game and now you have to do it. So here we go. Here's what you focus on, the next step. So it's quite the letter. and I did use it actually and um and it helped me so some you know some people need a more kind of genteel approach but in that kind of situation I knew I needed to just bring my a-game and focus and do the things you know be in action um in forward motion in order to feel less like a rabbit in headlights and more like I was taking control of the situation do you I hope you don't mind if I because it was it's breast cancer isn't how's the diagnosis now yeah I'm I'm absolutely fine now I'm out the other side which is incredible right thank you yeah and it's um you know I'm super super lucky that it was the earliest possible stage you could have found it and um you know I'm really lucky that I didn't have to do all the kind of radiation and stuff that makes you really poorly so you know I'm you know I'm just touch wood feeling super super lucky and grateful and it's weird because you have in in that moment when when you find out there is that natural inclination to go why me you know I've always tried to be healthy and and then at the other end when you realize you're on the other side of it you have another bit of a why me where almost like a survivor guilt type thing where you think well why did I have such an easy ride of it I'm out the other side already and there are people you know fighting for their lives back there and so I think whatever and and it's recognizing again And those experiences are natural parts of that process.

57:46Yeah. And interesting, when I did my thesis for my clinical training, it was in post-traumatic growth in breast cancer patients. Wow. And yeah, I got to interview lots of women who had been through it and how they had sort of felt like they gained from the experience and how they, you know, in terms of, you know, quite small things like, you know, health behaviors. or spending more time with family or re-evaluating certain things or those sorts of things. So I think I already had that in my mind that if we get through, then it doesn't have to be something that I have to pretend never happened and forget about and that I need to feel traumatized by.

58:28I can treat this as just a part of the story that I'm going to deal with and then learn from as well. I love that's how you embrace fear. It's so empowering. Yeah. it reminded me of this um and it's totally different but there was this uh my business partner i um went to this talk from this woman amazing woman who um she had a first day of her new job and she got on the tube and the next thing she wakes up in hospital and she's on the tube that one of the bombs was on and she lost both of her legs and she woke up with having both her legs being amputated and she had this amazing speech and talk, a keynote speech about it all and spoke with it.

59:13And then she said, one of the questions was, do you not feel angry about what happened? She said, no, because that would make me a victim. And actually I'm embracing it. And I wouldn't be here in front of you right now talking about this. And that's what I take from it. And it was such a moment of like, oh my, the world is a really scary place and things happen and shit happens and we get sick and people die and we fall ill and we get depressed or whatever it is, we lose our jobs. But actually you have to embrace that and you have to embrace that fear and you go, no, I'm going to put one foot in front of the other and keep going.

59:45Yeah. And the thing is, there is that natural inclination to start down that route of the why me's and stuff like that. But you have to draw a line. You have to stop it at some point because it doesn't help. it just it makes things harder and the last thing you want to do is live in bitterness and resentment so you have to kind of turn it around and um yeah do what you can for yourself and access kind of gratitude for you know there's a there's there's good and bad in every situation you can always look for the things you feel grateful for and you can look for the things that you hate about situation both of them are there to be accessed but you got to choose what you do with it i want everyone to go and buy your book.

1:00:28I really do. We're going to leave a link in the description because it's truly amazing. And this is going to help so many people, especially in 2025. And it's just, it's... If not, it will help me. The book I wrote for me. It has helped me.

1:00:47Julie, we have eight questions and I'm sure all of your energy has been zapped. And I'm so sorry. But we have eight questions that we'd like to end on. Are you ready? yeah what's a saying or phrase that you want people to come away from this interview with probably the one about the sauna so you know your inner world is like a sauna so it can have benefits being there but don't stay for too long so if you're struggling reach out to another human being and make connection because the best thing for your nervous system is somebody else it's quite a long phrase no but that's great I like that a lot I love that that you're you're you're like a sauna it's amazing best compliment anyone's ever given you for your work do you know one of my biggest fears around giving everything away and being public was what other professionals would say and think you think oh gosh they're all gonna be you know judging me in the background and so probably the the biggest compliments that blow me away of when um either people that i've known in the mental health work or medics and staff gps when they contact me and say i'm giving out your book or i'm i'm directing people towards your book um i just think yes yes that's it you know it's a real um compliment when people who are you know have really high standards say that they're recommending it i think yeah do you still have that imposter syndrome slightly all the time all the but i think it's a good sign that you're challenging yourself and you're living you know you're aiming up so yeah embrace it what scares you most about your work from the very beginning that it all changed was that it would come between me and the children and that it would um have an impact on them i think that was always and still is i'm always that's always my radar is what's the balance and how in and i do i work from home so i you know still do the school run every day and I do the you know technical football and stuff in the afternoon and then Matt and I get in the office when the kids are in bed and start working again so there is a price to pay right there's a payoff and so in order to kind of be the mum and still do it um it means you know late nights and early mornings and stuff but I'm I'm willing to do that because I'm under no illusion you know this all sounds great and fab and uh glam and stuff but I'm under no illusions that the most important work I'll ever do is being a mum how tired are you there we go yeah a little bit when was the last time you cried and why um god well I'm a woman so you know occasionally it happens just for no apparent reason but um probably the most significant time was when uh as I was coming out the other side of the cancer of stuff.

1:03:40It's weird because you imagine there's like this really dramatic moment where you find out and then you just know everything. And then there's a dramatic moment where you're all clear and, you know, ring the bell and stuff. It wasn't really like that. I went to this appointment to kind of get, you know, results and stuff. And I thought that was going to be like the end point. And so I was almost kind of excited about it. And then what I got was, you know, it's not me that decides whether you have you know chemo or radio um the oncologist will make a decision and then you know you come back in a couple of weeks and and i was like oh no i just really you know this disappointment was just huge this is not the end this is carrying on and this is more and i'm tired of it and and um so i remember that kind of drive home it was a bit like oh i really wanted the you know i wanted the big kind of moment see you later yeah but i didn't have it so yeah that was probably the most significant time but you know I got it now so that's right what's something you can't let go of um what can I not let go of um I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing but um I think if someone uh sort of betrays me or shows that they're not trustworthy I find that really hard to forget you know like I feel trust is one of those things where it's like a big bucket of water that you can only fill from a dripping tap but if someone knocks that over takes so long to build it back up again doesn't it you know knocked over in an instant and then um yeah it kind of has to be earned back over time that's a great analogy yeah I sometimes feel like I'm a bit harsh on that side of things that you know should be able to just like let things go but yeah maybe that's a good thing I'm protecting myself and but trust is a great thing yeah loyalty is quite important to me yeah what's your guilty pleasure I don't know um chocolate

1:05:42sugar yeah yeah it's great yeah what turns you off probably the thing from before the sort of um dishonesty or someone um when you kind of get to see that someone's not really being themselves and they're kind of there's a veneer there and maybe because of the work I do as well maybe I'm a bit more attuned to that um but yeah immediately kind of maybe it's again the trust issue that there's just sort of a bit yeah um it's a good answer yeah what turns you on that kind of genuine someone being totally unapologetically themselves and not pretending that everything's perfect or not pretending that they are, you know, anything that they're not.

1:06:34What do you like most about yourself? Oh, what a horrible question, James. It's the hardest one on the bunch. Oh, God. Come on, we can dig deep with this one. Okay, probably, actually, the stuff I said about, I feel so strongly about my role as a parent and being present and doing a good job there um I feel like I've got that right I feel like in a world where we're kind of I think parenting and family life is being so devalued and or the value of it is not being recognized and then we're going well why is everyone growing up struggling um yeah I feel like I sort of not know something that no one that everyone else doesn't but but I I see how important those early years are and I see how important family life and family connections are um so yeah probably that bonus favorite swear word I can't say that here is that your answer thank you so much

1:07:50Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Lovely, really moving at times. Yeah, just amazing in so many ways. I love that. Yeah, she is just wonderful. She's amazing. I think I could listen to that over and over. So what are your notes on it? For you? Yeah. I'll have to have a think about it. I'll fresh out the interview. You can have a think about it. Guys, thank you so much for listening. We really appreciate it. As always, please just get in touch with us. we'd love to hear from you at greatcompanypodcast on Instagram you can slide in and chat to us or you can send us an email greatcompany at jampopproductions.co.uk everything is in the show description if you haven't subscribed to our YouTube channel as well we have that you can go and check it out and watch the whole show there which would be amazing and to this show okay Jemima you ready for next week?

1:08:33I am very ready also just to note we're going to put all of Dr. Julie's books in the link in the bio as well so you can go and get them there okay see you next week guys bye bye bye

1:08:53Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 mg. Check out zen.com slash find to find zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

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1:11:23Learn more at fidelity.com slash active ETFs. Before investing in any exchange-traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully. While active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.