ELIZABETH DAY: WHY MY FORTIES ARE MY BEST DECADE YET

0:00Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of 130 million of them, in fact. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company, seniority, skills, and did I say job title? See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend$250 on your first campaign and get a free$250 credit for the next one. Get started at linkedin.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply. Hello, everyone. We're Jamie and Sophie. You may remember us from Nearlyweds and then Newlyweds.

0:35But now, guys, things are about to get even wilder as we take on our biggest adventure yet, becoming parents. Yeah, that's right. Newlyweds is now Nearly Parents, and we're bringing you the same honest, heartwarming takes on our journey to parenthood, I guess. Join us as we find out what it really means to become a family while trying not to kill each other. Get ready for Nearly Parents, your favourite new podcast.

1:05Hey guys. Now, before we start this episode, I just want to ask a very quick favour. I know that you're already listening to this and that is so kind, but if you haven't subscribed to this show, it does so much for us. I cannot even explain. It doesn't cost you anything. You just got to click the subscribe button wherever you're listening to this. And it means that we can continue to get amazing guests and make great shows. So if you can do that one favour for us, That would be absolutely amazing. Okay, enjoy the episode. Hello everyone, my name is Jamie Lang and this is Great Company.

1:44Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello, Wembley. Have you always wanted to do that? Yeah. Good. All right, you got that out of your lungs? Yeah, but next time let's do this in Wembley. Okay, what are you drinking by the way? I'm drinking. A beer. No, it's a coffee. I'm not an animal. You like your coffees, though, don't you? Do you know what? One a day. Yeah. You can't function in the morning without your coffee, can you? No, I can. Oh, OK. Sorry, that was jumping to... That's a big conclusion that you've jumped to. You're not allowed coffee. No, because it makes me way too hyper. I feel like everyone who's just clicked on is...

2:25Oh, my God. Sorry, I've not done my job. Who are you? Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang, and I'm the host of Great Company. And you are The producer. Jemima. Exactly. And each episode, if you - I'm so sorry I didn't do that. No, I like that. I like the way we didn't do that. We're just so easily just flowing into it now. Now, if you have just clicked on to our podcast, this podcast is about Great Company. I say it all the time, but I really feel that we've become so connected, we've become disconnected. And this about sitting down with amazing guests each week. And before each show, I sit with you, Jemima, my producer, and we talk about maybe the things that I did wrong, maybe the things I did right.

3:03And we talk about the guests that we have on today. Yes, we do. Why don't we start with the things that I've done wrong recently? Have I done anything wrong in the interviews? No, I don't think you've done anything wrong. I think they've actually been very good interviews. It's lovely to hear you in this capacity again, because sometimes you're a little bit silly. Yes. In the other shows, I can be a little bit silly. You can be a bit silly, but it's nice to hear you. You're very good at connecting with people. Thank you. Hey, by the way, people are loving the music. Oh, thanks. Should we let them into a little secret?

3:30No. No? Never. Come on. People can never know. I think they need... Maybe next episode. What? You know, we've got to tease it. One day, I'll tell you what, we'll reveal the secret. Behind the theme music to Great Company. Yeah. Okay, fine. We'll keep that a secret. We'll hold it. We'll hold it. Wow. That's very secretive of you. But I like it. Fine. But they like the music, which is amazing. Good. No, but you've done very well the last few. So we've had lovely Youngblood, Joe Brand and Paloma Faith. Yeah, who are all just incredible. Yeah, and all really different. What was the reason behind you picking those people in that order?

4:07Oh, so the order is really important. Youngblood, I think, because he is such a like, his fans are such... It's a cult audience. Yeah. And then Joe Brand is a second episode. Interesting because Joe is like a national treasure. I think, you know, we're showing like the two ends of the spectrum, like a young pop star to a known. Iconic comedian. Yeah. Then Paloma Faith. Ugh. She's everything she was. I was like furiously nodding through that episode. And also I love the fact that she just took the piss on me throughout. Yeah. Yeah. For being posh. And then today's episode, we have. Elizabeth Day.

4:45Elizabeth Day, great friend of mine. Yes. Yeah, one of the people who I met during my time in the media entertainment world. She invited me on... Make it sound like it's over. I know. I don't know why. But she invited me on her podcast, How to Fail. I remember listening to that episode. Do you? Yeah. And I really remember you saying like your difficulty with relationships. And then what was funny is the first time I ever was had sex with Sophie that evening. The next day I went for dinner with Elizabeth Day and I told her about it. I thought you were going to say you afterwards just like went to the bathroom and phoned Elizabeth.

5:22Imagine if I did that. Hilarious. But Elizabeth and I have stayed friends for a long time. And Elizabeth is one of these incredible people who really looks at you when you're having a conversation. She is a podcaster. She's an author. She is also normally very open with me. So that's going to be hopefully exciting. Who's cracking who open in this episode? I'm going to crack her open. I think, I hope. Okay. But will you maybe crack open a bit along the way? Yeah. My advice for you. Oh yeah. Is don't be afraid of the silence. Good advice. So when you ask a question, if they don't answer immediately, they're just thinking the answer.

6:03Just leave that silence. Let them think. And when they finish talking, wait a beat. Because sometimes they're still thinking, like they might continue talking. That's my advice for you. But leave it space. That's my advice. Are you doing that now? Yeah, I was trying to do it for you. And I just kept going. I know, and I felt a bit awkward doing it with you. So let alone with a guest. I only knew you were doing it because you were like rolling your eyes all over the place. Good thing this bit's not visualised. All right, are you ready for this? Yes, I'm really excited for this. Okay, here we go.

6:35Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Elizabeth Day. Hello, I'm Elizabeth Day and I know the reprobate that is Jamie Lang because I used to watch Raiden Chelsea when Jamie was on it and I always thought he seemed great. And then I launched my own podcast and I was desperate to have him on as a guest and he turned up so full of good energy and willing to share and be vulnerable and we're both Scorpios so we bond on that level. And I have watched his career with awe ever since And I'm so happy to be on his podcast right now with one of my favourite people. What would you really like to be asked in an interview?

7:16Will you accept this British Podcast Award?

7:22It is honestly, it's our nemesis. We can say this. Can we say this? Yeah, we can 100 % say it. We can say this. So Elizabeth and I always laugh about the British Podcast Awards. and Elizabeth once, we were in the audience and you were up for best interview podcast and it came to the gold, the number one, the award goes to. So there'd been like bronze and silver and it hadn't been me. It's six shortlisted. There'd always been bronze and silver. Okay. I wasn't in there. Okay. So now carry on the story. So you weren't in the bronze and silver. You hadn't come second or third. So you were like, well, I'm not in the bottom three.

7:59So I'm not fourth, fifth or sixth. so hang on a second and before they announced gold they give a description of what the interview was like and the description was so what was there something on the lines of it was something like the judges were impressed by the sensitivity and deep empathy of this interviewer and the way they got the most vulnerable stories out of their guests and at this point you and I and I could see Elizabeth so Jamie was basically like doing a thumbs up at me gliding up out of her chair be like it's it's I am that I do belong and they said and it goes to I don't know who it was that year but maybe probably George the Poet George the Poet won everything apart from this category it was Olly Mann who won it I can't even remember I can't remember the name of the podcast sorry no shade it was one of those moments that if the camera's gone at the Oscars gone to you what the I was, I was disproportionately upset.

9:06I think it's not like this podcast is all about just like owning the stuff. Okay. So I was so upset. I really genuinely was like not upset, angry. I was so sad. And I think it goes right back to both of our needs for approval and for feeling like we were accepted and championed. Anyway, neither of us has ever won an award at the British Podcast Awards on the night. I've never been top three. I've never won anything on the night. I'm so sorry, because I saw you at the last one when I was like chairperson, but I didn't have any say in who won. I thought that was us. I thought it was you as well.

9:44We won in the top three. I presented it. I presented that category. How clever. They've got Elizabeth to present it because she's going to give it to us. I know. I was all ready to say my friend. I was sitting on your bar. But it's because, and I said this to you at the time, and I stand by it. You are too big to be awarded stuff. That's very kind. People will think, no, I genuinely believe this. And I know you don't believe it about yourself. So I just want a moment to say, I am so impressed with what you have achieved and what you have built during your career. it. You have had to redefine yourself in so many ways and prove yourself in so many ways.

10:25And now you are at a level, you are a podcasting magnate. Your company, Jam Pop, produces hit podcast after hit podcast. You are a major player in this field. You've changed the game for the rest of us. You were one of the first to embrace TikTok. You do an amazing job at what you do, let alone Candy Kittens and the business you built up there. And I'm so proud of you. I think it's really amazing. And it's a bit like Richard Branson going to the Entrepreneur of the Year Awards in Grosvenor House Hotel and being annoyed because he didn't get an award. That's what it's like. That's the equivalent.

11:04That's how you need to think of yourself. That's very kind. But I think if we did win it. Keep that in, Jamie. I'm going to keep it in. If we did win it, do you think it would make us happy forever? but do you think that when all of our troubles would suddenly go? Like that? Oh, wait, I feel fulfilled. That's all I needed. You have this amazing way of opening people up as well. And I remember very vividly with you where we bumped into each other and that's not me getting emotional. Damn it. Give him time. Give him time. I'll get it out. We bumped into each other. I just finished a podcast and I walked outside.

11:45We were in Southwark area. Yeah. And I was going through a tricky time. Sophie, she was having anxiety because of the wedding and all these different things. And I was kind of, felt a lot of pressure and I bumped into you and we had a chat about different stuff and I showed you different things and in this pod, in this podcast room. And as we walked outside, you said, are you okay? And I said, yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. And you said, are you sure? Do you want to talk about it? and you have this amazing way to sort of really understand by just one word or one conversation what someone says to you what they're going through and that's an amazing ability and so you you you what I would say is you're incredibly empathetic which always must be quite hard because it makes you quite emotional then at the same time so yeah I think that's why you're a great interview is because you can really, you really understand people's emotions.

12:39Thank you. That is such a lovely thing to say. And I completely and very clearly remember that interaction. But it's kind of a curse as well at the same time. Um, no, I, I do think I am empathetic. I think that's the one thing that I can say about myself that I know to be true that isn't highly critical. And I, I now am at a stage where I really value it and respect it and understand what that needs. And when I say that, what I mean is if I have a very intense podcast conversation, or I'm in a situation where I don't know that many people, but I feel like I'm taking on a lot of the accumulated energy, I know that I need time on my own and in my own space just to replenish all of that.

13:31and I think I'm an introvert and I know that that's a ridiculous thing to say when I'm sitting across from you and we're both hosts of our own podcasts and you know I do like putting myself out there but the what I've come to learn is the reason I like that is because I love connection so I love genuine deep connection with people and if I can do that with more and more people all for the good. But an introvert is someone who needs to replenish their energies by having their own space rather than being with other people and like a group of friends that you can talk it all through with. My husband is the opposite.

14:08He's an extrovert. And I think that's partly why we work really well together. Have you always realised you're an introvert? I think so. Yes. But did that upset you that knowing you were an introvert? Yes. And I think because I grew up in a certain era where these issues weren't as discussed, I felt that introversion was quite marginalized. And actually, I grew up in a highly extroverted society. And in many ways, we still exist in that society. And so I felt that in order to belong, I had to pretend and I had to perform and I had to seem more confident and more energetic than I actually was. And I always thought the fault was mine.

14:50Exhausting. Yeah, until really quite recently. I would say the last five years, I've understood that. I've understood that what I think I am is a high functioning introvert in an extrovert culture. Yeah. I can put it on. And it was something that actually I learned relatively young. My first job out of university was on the Londoner's Diary, which is a gossip column on the London newspaper, The Evening Standard. And at that time, they would send you out to really quote unquote glamorous parties every single night in London. and on I for many people that would be a dream job you know getting to go to the premier of the Lord of the Rings and bowling up to Orlando Bloom and being like hey I'm from the evening standard it was my idea of hell but I wanted to be a good employee and a good journalist and I got into journalism because I love writing and I love connecting with people so I would force myself to go and pretend to be confident and I would just have to go up to people I'd never met before who were A-listers and say something that would engage them in conversation.

15:58And my failsafe question was, who do you think is going to be the new James Bond? That's what you'd go to every time. Because whatever anyone says, we in Britain are unhealthily obsessed with who is going to be the new James Bond. Even if someone says, I don't know, that's a news story. Orlando Bloom says, he doesn't know. And then everyone's like, oh, maybe he's the new James Bond. And it's a double bluff. So you were creating titles straight away, whatever happened. Yes. So then, and you'd have to turn the story around very quickly for the next day's paper. And it taught me a lot, but it was really exhausting.

16:36And sometimes all I wanted to do was just have a baked potato at home and not speak to anyone. Do you relate to this at all? Or do you think you're an extrovert? Well, I think it's interesting, right? Because I think I am an extrovert. I definitely get energy being around other people for sure. I actually feel tired when I'm by myself. Really? Yeah. That is wild to me. I know. But it's like Justin. It's like my other half. He's the same. But I like being by myself. Okay. Yeah. So I could do a whole hour just on this. It's so interesting. It's so interesting. Because the other thing is, is that although I, I mean, everyone is probably a mix of both introversion and extroversion.

17:15Yeah. Although I'm definitely skewed more towards the introversion side. I do enjoy a party. You do? That's what I'm saying. And I was like, why is that? And I asked myself this question. And I think it's because I am not performing intimacy at a party. So at party, you can be there in a room full of people that you love or you know, or you find interesting in some way, but you don't have to have, you can't have in-depth conversations with them. So for someone who I get high on the buzz of an intimate, deep conversation and that moment of connection, but I also occasionally find it exhausting, a party doesn't require that of me.

17:56I can flit around and have a loving moment of connection and be like, hi, how are you? Oh my gosh, I've just got to see someone over there, like all of that. And it doesn't, and live shows are like that for me as well. I feel as though, I'm not explaining this well. In a crowd, I feel as though if it's an engaged audience of amazing listeners or my wonderful friends in a big group, I feel like I can have a one-on-one connection with everyone simultaneously rather than making space in my diary endlessly to be like, Like, shall we send me dates? Let's do this. Because I've now made this deal with myself that two nights a week I'm staying in.

18:44Well done. And that might not sound like a lot to some of your listeners, but for me it's huge. So Mondays and Wednesdays now, if someone asks me out, I'm like, oh, I can't do that. Because you were out every night? Well, I'm not out like... Sounds like an alcoholic. But not out partying. Just opening up this little dark area. But you know, it's just because like friendship is one of the most important, if not the most important thing in my life. So I would always make time for that and meet someone for a drink here and a cup of tea there and let's go for a walk and let's have dinner. But actually, I didn't have enough time.

19:24And so it was really exhausting. And again, I thought the fault was mine. And the pandemic really changed that for me. And I know it changed it for a lot of people because our diaries emptied out overnight. And I was confronted with the realisation that the way I was spending my time was not the most nurturing way for me to be the best version of myself that I could, that meant I could show up as the best friend I wanted to be. But that's a lot of pressure on yourself because that one would say that what you're trying to do there's that you're, you're not turning up to be the best version or best friend that you can be to somebody else, but actually you don't need to be a version of yourself.

20:00You can just be anyone because actually people feel... Yeah, I know. Mind blown. That was such a good and generous point. But it's true though. I think to delve deep into it maybe, is it because the sort of the recharging session that you have on the Monday and the Wednesday is because you then can turn up and be that best version of yourself? But is that, would you say that's performance led or no? Because I don't think you perform in... No. I think acceptance is what we're getting at. And I think it's taking me a really long time to understand the difference between fitting in and belonging.

20:40And fitting in is when you change yourself according to someone else's desires of you or what you project those desires to be. So classic example, you know, I was a bit bullied at my first secondary school. When I went to my second secondary school, I really just wanted to make friends. Like that felt the safest thing to me. And that had a knock on effect with my romantic relationships throughout my twenties where I just never showed up for myself. It was always what the other person wanted or what I thought they wanted, which sounds like it's nice. It's not, it's actually selfish because if you don't take the time to know yourself, how does the other person know who you are?

21:18But explain that more. So, so in what sense, so when you were getting into a relationship with someone, you would be guessing what version you had to give them in order for them to like you. So you - Basically, yeah. So give me a example. What would you do then? So I don't know if - This is getting too, this is getting, here we go. No, I'm here for it. Okay, great. I don't know if anyone has read Gone Girl by an author called Gillian Flynn, but there's a very famous passage in that brilliant book about how this woman has spent years trying to be the quote unquote cool girl, because the cool girl is fanciable.

21:51The cool girl is into sports. The cool girl is really chill. And I think for a lot of my twenties, I was trying unsuccessfully to be a version of that. And where it would come into play is like, Why is that? Because you feel then you'd be accepted? Yes. I didn't feel good enough. And so I had to pretend to be someone slightly different. So that a perfect, again, that's in quotation marks, because there's no such thing, a perfect partner so that that person would never leave me because the fear of abandonment would be the final verdict on the fact that I wasn't good enough. And it would be crazy stuff.

22:31I remember one boyfriend, I remember this so clearly, and I must've been about 26, saying, where do you want to go for lunch? I was like, I don't know, where do you want to go? Where do you want to go for lunch? And he was like, well, you tell me what you want. I was like, I literally don't know what I want or where I want to go for lunch. Because I'm scared that if I say where I want to go, if I could find out deep in my psyche where I want to go for lunch, you wouldn't want to go there and you would think less of me. So therefore you'd be rejected? Yes. It's wild to think that that's why I would.

23:05Because one would, you know, from an outside perspective. Smart, beautiful, kind, friendly, charismatic, funny, all these amazing things, but yet you still don't think that's good enough. And you can't see that within yourself, especially in your twenties. Yes. Thank you. And what a horrendous, and I think so many people relate to that. Yeah. Twenties is an awful time. Nightmare. It is shit. Thirties tough too, by the way. I'm here to tell you, 40s are great. 30s suck dick. Oh my gosh. They, yeah. It's not fun. My entire life imploded. And when I was your age, Jamie, she said like a grandmother from the American revolution.

23:48When I was your age. Yeah. They're really, they're really tough in a different way. Walk me through the decades. So why were your teen years tricky? Why is that a tricky just in general for people? In general, because speaking from my own experience and from the experience of some other people that I've spoken to, you don't know who you are and then some in your teenage years. So you are trying to forge your own identity at the same time as you are still part of your family unit. And your family unit will still encourage you to see yourself in that way. So I'm the youngest child of two. That will forever be my role in my family.

24:30I'm going to be the youngest. I'm going to be the baby. I'm going to be the one who in her own head doesn't have enough agency to be herself almost. And I think your teen years are the first time that you start experimenting with those boundaries. And actually, how much do I think I'm part of this family unit and how much is it important for me to forge friendships outside of that and who am I within that soup and at the same time as that's happening you're going through school which by the way is so tough I still wake up today and think I'm so grateful I'm not at school I and I was of a generation honestly yes what school is hell you have to It's like prison.

25:18It is so regimented. You have to get up earlier than anyone ever wants. It's so true. It's often dark. You have to, like, either at boarding school where you're questioning everything, like, does my family love me? And then doing a cross-country run at 6am in the freezing cold. I'm told you can't wear trousers. Your knees are freezing. It's minus five. You've had a night listening to other people shuffle, cough and masturbate like in beds next door to you. Theo Bottom sits on next to you and shouts, Mommy! And you go, what the hell is this? Theo Bottom? Theo Bottom. Oh my gosh, it's an actual person.

25:58Yeah. Shout out to Theo Bottom. Theo Bottom, he's lovely. Aww. Yeah. Shuffle and masturbate. So you're either that or you're at a day school and you have to schlep out, often like getting buses before dawn. get to this lesson. And then you're forced for years to study subjects you're not good at until you can finally give one or two of them up, but then you're still... And then it's just so weird. And I understand it's the best system we have, but I hated it. I should say, I hated school as a concept. The second secondary school I went to was actually a really good school. And I met some lovely people and it was really good for me, but I just didn't like school.

26:48But they had a course that was lessons called life skills. Now, the only thing I remember being taught in that lesson was how to put a condom on a piece of plastic. I don't remember being taught about taxes. It was such a shock to me when I was like, I have to pay taxes. I'd love to have been taught a key accountancy skills or the importance of collaboration or dare I say it like the limits of fertility. Whereas it felt like all of my education was about double maths and don't get pregnant as a teenage girl. So much of it was that. And obviously that's important, but I think that there needs to be a little more balance.

27:26So I think that's why teenagedom is quite tough. And then you enter your twenties and you're out of school and either you're in the world of work or you're at university and that kind of forging and discovery of identity continues. And then it's your first experience of adult life and adult life is bafflingly free of signposts and exams. So there's no exam that you can take that will tell you that you're doing a good job at adulting. So in your twenties, all you have to compare yourself to, it's the example of your parents, if you're lucky enough to have parents, or it's cultural signals. So rom-coms, like the stuff that you watch on television, what that's telling you, or it's your peer group.

28:17And in the age of social media, that's so much more pressured than ever before. So you all, my experience, and that was, it was a world before Instagram was very much like, I'm not doing as well as X. I'm not as far along in my career as I should be because of Y. I am not having a footloose, fancy, free life of the sort embodied in Sex and the City or Friends. And should I also be having a long-term relationship or should I be having one-night stands? I just don't know where I sit in this. And so that's why your 20s, I think, are tough. So you constantly think you're failing all the time because you don't know what's right.

28:55Yes. And interestingly, when I started How to Fail, my podcast, the first few seasons, so many people came and chose their 20s as one of their failures. And it became something that I'm really passionate talking about because I think so many people in their 20s feel that they're the only ones feeling that they're failing. And I promise you that you're not. And also, I think that we've been sold a myth that life is a race, that we need to be achieving greater things younger than ever before. And I think that comes from the wrongheaded idea that as we age, our power somehow diminishes. And that has been the opposite of my experience.

29:34I feel that I have got more powerful. I know myself so much better the more that I age. And my success, conventional success, like conventional CV on paper success, has only really come from my late 30s onwards. That's amazing. You're so right. I love that that power is with age and it's not the other way around. The power isn't with you when you're young and you are with fed lies. If you're not Mark Zuckerberg and you're not a billionaire by the time you're two, you know, you haven't been a success. And so that's driven into us, but that's one person out of seven and a half billion. You know what I mean?

30:13It doesn't matter. And actually I completely agree with you. In my twenties, I was doing lots of different things and there were things that I was doing that I was like, well, I'm successful now because I have an office. I'm successful. But actually I just wasn't. And now that I'm 35, I realized before everything was just nonsense. And actually what is success? It's lots of things, but knowledge is knowledge is everything. A hundred percent. That is such a good way of putting it because obviously if, you know, I spend a lot of time thinking about failure and that means that I've spent a lot of time thinking about its shadow twin success and how I think of success has radically changed.

30:53I saw something on Instagram yesterday saying that the true mark of success is a calm nervous system. And I thought that was so good because that comes from knowledge. Like the ability to retain your inner calm, even when there is outer noise, the understanding that you don't have to take on everyone else's opinions, that everyone else isn't right and you're somehow wrong. that is success. That is a measure of authenticity that only age and doing a podcast about failure really has brought me. Because now to go back right to what we were talking about at the beginning, I feel so accepted by a community of people where I am able to show up as myself, as my deeply flawed self.

31:42And that's been a revelation to me and something I'm forever grateful for. Why are 30s tricky? Your 30s are tricky because you think, at least again, speaking from my experience, you think you've sorted yourself out by then. So I had, I started therapy when I was 27 and I did 12 weeks of it. And I was like, I am now cured of any dysfunction. I am an enlightened being. So I entered my 30s thinking, no, like the 20s were tough, but I've really found myself now. Just quickly on that. I started therapy when I was 27. properties yeah same i think it's that strange age you hit saturn's return as your former colleague kaggy dunnard says 27 yeah you get hit with it but just quickly on that so you so you insecurities whatever flooding through you go to therapy you do it you go into therapy you think okay well i'm fine now i i know my place but you don't actually no okay well i didn't i'm sure some people might do like but I don't think so um and I I then had a very boringly heteronormative conventional idea of what my 30s should be and again that came from a diet of 1980s rom-coms probably like I love Sleepers in Seattle and Working Girl but spoiler alert your life probably won't be like that and that's a good thing but I I thought and I succumbed to the pressure to peer pressure, like all of my peers, it seemed, were settling down and finding their person and moving in together.

33:15And I felt that that's what I should be doing. That's where the secret of happiness was. And so I thought I knew myself. I thought I knew what I should be doing. And I got into a relationship with an older man. And that also made me feel like I'm so mature that I can be in this relationship with an older man. How much older was he? 11 years. Okay. And we got married and I didn't realize that we had each got married to the wrong person. I, I, I really did think I was showing up as myself and actually I didn't. And there were various other things that went on that I can't go into because it's not just my story.

33:55yeah yeah so fair when he got down on one knee or proposed to you shock were you shocked were you oh god or were you like no this is everything i want because my experience because of course i got married i i think for anyone whenever you get engaged there's a there's a bit of a whoa for the man and for the woman or for the both men or whoever it is you know whatever whoever you're getting married to, there's some moment where you suddenly go, hang on, is this, is this one-on-one? And someone really, it's quite interesting. Someone, someone very funny said to me, same thing. They said, people fantasize about marriage because they like the idea, stereotypically, of getting a ring.

34:42Everyone congratulates them. No one thinks about marriage. Yeah. You don't think about what the thing after you think about in that moment. And that moment is amazing. But there is, when you got proposed for the first time, were you ready for it? Um, yes and no. I think. Because you're also a people person. So when someone offers you that song or says that to you, of course, the only thing you want to do. Yes. And I had wanted it though. I had also wanted it. And I just, the overwhelming feeling I get when I look back is tension. Like I can now feel how tense I felt then and it's making me sad.

35:24I was so tense and sort of highly strong and like trying to be the thing that I thought I should be and that I thought he needed and that other people needed of me. And I think where my 30s transition from my 20s. My 30s were where I was performing being a grown-up, but I was kidding myself that I was the grown-up. So that doesn't make for a necessarily fulfilling or successful relationship. And I think where it came to a crunch point for me within that was when I tried and failed to have babies and I had recurrent miscarriage and IVF unsuccessfully. And that made me really re-evaluate who I was and what it was that I wanted.

36:16And I just realized that I was deeply unhappy. And there were other reasons for that. But we got divorced and that happened when I was 35. So that is a sort of key moment to feel that your life, as you know it, has totally imploded. So all of the things that I thought I had wanted on paper suddenly like that, no, actually you were in the wrong place. And I was confronted with blankness. I did not know what was going to happen next or what I was going to do next. It's not great being a single woman in your late thirties and having to go on apps for the first time. I'd been in a series of long-term monogamous relationships back to back more or less until that point.

37:00So it was a journey of discovery and it was really scary. It was really scary. Because it is scary. Because also, you know, we've been trained to believe that by the time you're 35, you should have all your shit together. You should know everything. You should be, this is what you're, and actually we just don't. And then when you do get divorced at 35, that is scary. And you're right in saying from a women's point of view, for some odd, bizarre reason, we've been trained to believe that may be a bit scarier because we talk about fertility and all these different things. Exactly. And it was so scary.

37:39However, on the flip side of fear, there's also excitement. Very often, those feelings are quite similar. Anxiety and those butterflies in the stomach that you feel can also signal that something is about to shift or change or you're about to embark on a journey into the unknown. And yes, the unknown is scary, but it's also just so full of opportunity.

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38:48We may need to change that jingle. Prices and participation may vary. Hello, everyone. We're Jamie and Sophie. You may remember us from Nearlyweds and then Newlyweds. But now, guys, things are about to get even wilder as we take on our biggest adventure yet, becoming parents. Yeah, that's right. Newlyweds is now Nearly Parents and we're bringing you the same honest heartwarming takes on our journey to parenthood I guess Join us as we find out what it really means to become a family while trying not to kill each other Get ready for Nearly Parents your favourite new podcast

39:28I do want to ask about heartbreak because I think it is important because a lot of people who are listening to this perhaps have had heartbreak and are going through it. And you can go to your mom or your dad or your brother, your friend or whatever it is. And sometimes it's quite tricky. What is your advice about heartbreak? And when you're going through it, it's awful. Yes, it's horrendous. First of all, don't minimize what you're going through. Because for me, I've been through, I think, six serious heartbreaks and the feeling that it is most equivalent to is a kind of grief. And grief is so unfathomably difficult to live alongside and to process.

40:10And I think there are certain things that well-meaning people say when you're going through it. They will say things like, you'll look back one day and you'll be grateful for this. And it doesn't help when you're in it, because when you're in it, at least speaking personally, all you want is to have the happy relationship back and to have that person that you spent all this time with and not to feel like you were not good enough for them. It's so soul crushing. And my advice is actually stolen from Eckhart Tolle, who wrote a book called The Power of Now. When I was going through one of my serious heartbreaks, I was too involved in my own sadness to listen to any music, any pop music would seem to bear specific resonance to what I was going through.

40:56Ariana Grande speaking about a broken heart, forget it. So I started listening to a lot of podcasts. It's actually ironically what got me into podcasting. And one of the podcasts I listened to was Eckhart Tolle being interviewed by Oprah Winfrey. And he said, whatever you're going through, treat it as if it were an active decision on your part to go through this. If you chose to be going through this, what might that be teaching you? How might you think of it differently? And of course, no one would ever choose to go through pain or grief or heartbreak or loss. But just as a psychological exercise, if you had made that choice, why would you have made it?

41:36And I found that very helpful because if I put myself into that mindset, it's suddenly a mindset that removes you from a position of powerlessness and puts you at least for a moment in this hypothetical into a position of power. So what was lacking for me in that relationship? Because I guarantee you that something was, because if nothing were lacking for you, if that relationship were worthy of you, you would still be in it. That relationship was on the rocks for longer than you realize because it wasn't worthy of you. And the other thing that I would to say is if you are the one who has been dumped in a brutal way, actions are character.

42:15You cannot separate the two. So that person has now shown you who they are. And therefore, when you look back through Rose Tinted Spectacles and you think, oh, but it was so amazing in the beginning and this was so amazing, but they're not that person anymore. They're the person who have the capacity to do this to you. I found that really helpful. And then finally, I would say the amazing Mo Gowdat, who famously came up with an algorithm for happiness, and he's now a leading expert in AI. He came on How to Fail way back in 2019 in season four. And I asked him this question about heartbreak. And he said, the first thing that I say when someone tells me that they've gone through a breakup is congratulations, because I can guarantee you that relationship wasn't working for either party if it broke up.

43:05And he reassured me that there are however many billion people in the world and that I would find someone. And he turned out to be right. And actually, annoyingly, all of those people who said, you will look back one day and be grateful, they turned out to be right too. I would not have launched How to Fail were it not for heartbreak. I needed to get to that point. And I needed to go through all of those feelings to understand who I was and what I wanted to do with that pain. And from pain can come great creation and great art and take everything that has happened to you and store it away and know that it's making you wiser.

43:43And in the fullness of time, it would have taught you something really extraordinary. It's amazing. That is so true. And I also always believe that when a door closes, look for the window. There's always a window somewhere that you can get through and open it. And there always is. And sometimes you think that the world is going to go, that's in loads of things, whether you're losing a relationship, heartbroken, losing a job, anything that's always a window open. I totally think that. And I often think that, I mean, I am someone who believes in serendipity. So the idea that the universe is unfolding exactly as it should, that belief has brought me great comfort.

44:19I know that not everyone subscribes to it, but I think what that says is sometimes it's that thing of like, what's for you won't go by you. Sometimes life removes the thing that we thought we wanted so that the path can be clear to see the thing that we really need and the thing that we really deserve. And that's not to say that everything we go through is easily assimilated. Like I'm not sitting here being like every time you have a heartbreak, every time you have a crushing failure, just dust yourself off and get on with it because that's the universe looking out for you. Like sometimes things will cause you grief and that grief will last forever.

44:56It doesn't mean that you can't be at peace and live alongside that grief. And it doesn't mean that that grief won't teach you something. It will teach you something about life, about living life. And I think for me, the most obvious experience of that in my life is my failure to have my own children. And it's a journey after 12 years of various fertility treatments that I am at peace with being at the end of. Are you really? Genuinely. Really? I am. And I'm happy I can say that. It really is. And I, I sort of thought for a while, am I in denial? Because this feeling of peace, I never thought I would have it.

45:38I, motherhood has always been something that I just imagined would happen for me. And I understand that there are very many different ways to be a mother. And I'm so lucky to have so many wonderful children in my life. But I think I got to a point where it felt like it was too much struggle and I didn't want to do it again. And having said that to myself, I then felt in alignment with my life. It felt like I was doing this thing and trying really, really, really hard. And then when I let it go, I was like, okay, that's going to cause me sadness forever. Don't get me wrong. And at the same time, I'm so blessed that I have a wonderful relationship, a job that really stimulates me.

46:29And I have all of this creative energy that I can use in other ways. And I genuinely feel at peace with it. And I've left it a few months now and I, and I'm not in denial. That's amazing. And it doesn't make you emotional anymore? It does make me emotional. But it's so interesting because I'm not on the verge of tears all the time anymore. And she said, being suddenly getting on the verge of tears. I, I just, I realized that like anyone who has ever been through fertility treatment or anyone who has ever experienced miscarriage, my heart goes out to you. First of all, no one will ever fully understand it unless they've been through it.

47:10But it is so relentless and it is this very difficult mixture of huge emotion and a lot of medicine that very often mess with your head because they're so hormonal. For me, I had to do a lot of thinking about my purpose because for so long I thought part of my purpose was being a parent. And actually, I think now that part of my purpose is speaking for people who aren't, who have tried and who aren't, and who for a very long time haven't had a voice in the society that we live in that has elevated parenthood and romantic love above so many other things. And I get so much from that. I had someone come up to me in Starbucks the other day.

47:57Other coffee chains are available, but it just so happens that Starbucks does the best high street tea. I did not think you could end it with tea. I'm a tea obsessive. You can tell I'm on my own. I love tea. I only drink tea. I only drink tea. I only drink tea. Another thing we have in common as well as being Scorpios. Yeah, I only drink tea. A woman came up to me in Starbucks as I was at my laptop and she said, are you Elizabeth Day? And I was like, yes. And she said, I just want to thank you. I'm going through fertility treatment at the moment. And she welled up and I welled up and she started crying.

48:29And I just, I was like, I know exactly where you've been. This time last year, I was exactly where you are. And I just, I, I, we had a chat and we hugged and I, that is one of the, the great honors of my life is genuinely when that happens. And so I, um, yeah, I'm so not on the verge of tears anymore. No, it's like, that's a gift enough for me, genuinely. That is amazing. I don't think I'm oversharing here, but with, you know, there's the very famous scene in Fleabag. Yes. With Phoebe Waller-Bridge, where she has a miscarriage in the bathroom. Her sister does. Her sister does, sorry. And she comes back to the table in the restaurant and has to act everything as normal.

49:13And you're great friends with Phoebe. Yeah. And that is based on your story. Yes. Which is incredibly, I mean, it's a hugely emotional thing to possibly go through. And yet you gave the permission for that to be shared. Yeah. And actually it goes back to what I was saying earlier that out of great pain can come great art. I mean, what better example than season two of Fleabag, which I think, and I know she's a dear friend of mine, but it's one of the greatest pieces of TV ever made. And that was a really interesting one because I've had three miscarriages and that was my first miscarriage. And it happened at 12 weeks, which is like, it's a tricky time because that's when you go in for your scan and you're hoping that everything is good.

49:58and we'd seen a heartbeat and then the heartbeat disappeared and it was quite traumatic. And I was sent off and was due to come back in for a procedure to remove the pregnancy. And actually it started happening naturally. And I was having brunch with a friend who had come over from Australia and I didn't want to let her down. And so I went for this brunch the day after the scan had shown no heartbeat. And I went to the loo and discovered I was having my miscarriage then and there. And I went back and sat down and I, and my friend who I love and adore to this day, Hayley, I remember thinking like, I don't want to ruin the brunch.

50:39I'll just, I'll just, let's, let's get our corn fritters. And I, I sort of didn't want to interrupt it. And then I thought, no, this is, I can't, this is actually painful now. I'm going to have to say something. And I said something and Hayley was amazing. Was like, we're getting in a taxi right now and I'm taking you to hospital. And that's what happened. And I had told Phoebe that story. It was probably one of the first things I told her. I remember telling her that story. And then years later, she becomes a global superstar and Fleabag has come out and then she's writing season two and that's about to come out.

51:18She calls me up. She said, Elizabeth, I think I've done something without meaning to. I was like, what? She said, I think I've written your miscarriage into Fleabag. And she told me the scene. And I said, that is brilliant. Thank you. And take it and do with it what you will. and I genuinely meant that because I knew that in her hands it would be something so powerful and so full of creative genius and then I went to a screening of that episode and that made me cry in the best way because it felt both faithful to the truth of my experience but also completely different it was a completely different scenario but um I know that that scene has resonated with so many people.

52:04It's amazing. It's amazing. I have a lot of friends, right, who are drifted into their thirties and they're not married and they're not in relationships. Why wasn't I hanging out with them? You know what I mean? And I think there's been a shift now where this is happening a lot more. Yes, I agree with you. There's a, there's a weird, 30 is a weird age when you hit it and you're not in a relationship and you're not married or whatever. It's not married, but not in a relationship. It feels a bit weird. When I turned 30 and I had just broken up with my ex-girlfriend, I remember lying in bed and my dreams would be that I was just going to be alone forever.

52:40Jamie, you know, that was one of your failures when you came on Time to Fail. I looked them up recently. Your third failure was I'm 30 and I've still not had a successful long-term romantic relationship. Was that it? Yeah. And I felt really moved and proud of you that now here we are five years later. That is so interesting because I remember for me, it was something like, again, we go back to this being drilled into you. Okay. You go to school, you then go to university, you come out of university, you have a degree, you get a, what they call a normal job. You get the normal job. You have the normal friends.

53:13You suddenly get a mortgage with a flat or whatever you can afford. And then you get married. And by the time you're 32, you have a kid. That's what I thought life was. And so when I had hit 30 and I didn't have a normal job and I wasn't in a relationship, I thought, well, this is scary. And actually, I am so happy that actually I found love a little bit later. So I found, you know, I fell deeply in love and married Sophie at the age of 34, 35. But obviously I was in love before that, but married at 34, 35. And actually, I, as we talked about, I understand myself a lot more. Yeah. And I think for people listening who are single, perhaps in their thirties and worried about it, actually, I think it's a good thing.

53:55I really think it's a good thing. And I think as well, as I've mentioned, I'm 45. So when I was in my 30s, it was a different economic climate. And I do actually think that that has an impact. So it was easier for my generation to get our first step on the property ladder. And it is so fucking difficult for people now. And I think, therefore, one of the knock-on effects of that, of not being able to own your own home until you're 85 is that your sense of life stages has probably shifted a bit. So maybe that's why there are more single people in their thirties now. And I salute and applaud you.

54:34I completely agree with you that it took me, I think, it definitely took me until 39 to have a relationship that is fully functional, healthy, loving, accepting. And that's partly because I don't think I knew myself until then. And I had to be knocked around a bit by life and I had to be humbled by some of the things that I went through. And I had to think, oh, I failed here. Why is that? And be really honest with myself. Not pretend to be honest, which I was doing for a long time, but be really stripped back and honest. And thank goodness I went through that. And thank goodness I went on a hinge date, age 39, and met my husband.

55:16And why do you guys work? When I first met Justin, and we laugh about it now, but he is a big believer in pacing and appropriate pacing. And I'd been very used to thinking romance was love bombing and narcissism. And chaos. Yeah, and chaos. And I was like, let's fly to Rio tomorrow and go and live there. And I'd be like, oh my God, he loves me so much. And then with Justin, again, because he was a grown up and had been through lots of life, he was just very considered with the pacing. And so we took it, for me, really slowly. And to begin with, I couldn't understand that. And I didn't know if he was into me for months.

56:00Oh, that's great. You build that slow. It's, it relates to everything. People want a viral hit on TikTok. It's, it's a bad thing. You, people want to have a hit now in music and number one, it's a bad, you want to have that slow growth. And in a relationship, you, that's why when you meet a friend and then you suddenly fall in love with a friend, it actually turns out that it probably works better is you've had that slow growth. You know each other. Yeah. Much better than that instant flash in the pan. And that flash in the pan romance isn't healthy. Totally. I mean, exactly that. And that's another thing that I think our popular culture has done us a disservice because it's made us think of what romance is in a certain way.

56:42It's made us think that it's fireworks. And actually with Justin, I think I have a slow burning, steady bonfire. And I love that. That's not boring. No, I love a bonfire. It's not boring at all. It's so much more exciting because we feel safe enough to experiment. Now I was sounding really kinky, but I just see experimentation and communication. I know that I can talk to him about anything and that's amazing. And I also know quite early on in our relationship, he said a couple of things to me that have stayed with me ever since. One time I was feeling really overwhelmed with work and demands. And he said to me, you'll get through it.

57:20And just remember, I think you're amazing. Even if you never do anything ever again. I just think you're amazing because that's you. It's not about the things you do. That is like such a, it's such a meaningful thing. I'm speechless just saying it again. Like it's, it's, it gave me permission to just be myself. And then another thing he said to me, I've sometimes worried in the past, you know, I'm very emotional. Um, not in a kind of sexy Italian way, but in a like weepy, I'm going to cry now because I'm just feeling like everything's too much way. And I sometimes worried about that in the past.

58:00I'm just like too much in that way. Like I will cry at anything. And that's how I process stress anyway. And I remember sort of saying that to Justin, he was, he would say, I actually love the fact that you're so emotional because I think that that makes him feel safe, that I'm not hiding anything, that it's coming through and that it's taught him a lot. It's amazing. I actually spoke to someone yesterday who said, we all react in different ways and I can get quite emotional. In a sexy Italian way. Yeah, not in a sexy Italian way. But, and you know, maybe it's in a business setting or whatever, but they said, oh, I feel like that's a weakness.

58:42Yes. It's not a weakness. I totally agree. It's not a weakness. And people feel sometimes that vulnerability or emotion is a weakness. And it is totally the opposite. You have to be so strong to show up vulnerable in a business setting. And actually, that's one of the things that I talk a lot about when I talk about failure in companies. I say a lot if you take the risk of being vulnerable with your team I guarantee you that that will be paid back in spades that they will then feel permission to be vulnerable with you and to admit when something goes wrong rather than trying to cover up cover it up and making the problem worse and actually there's so much solidarity that comes from that and such a sense of community and that in turn makes for a far more successful business I couldn't literally I literally couldn't agree more.

59:33I don't know if you want to talk about this, but I want to take you back to when we did a live show in Bath many years ago. It was a live How to Fail show. And I met your mum for the first time. Shout out to Penny, who I love and adore. She's slightly obsessed. I'm obsessed with her. In a weird way, she's slightly obsessed. She'll be listening to this as well. And she'll be going, yes, I am. I love you, Penny. um and you had just started dating Sophie it was quite early days and I could tell something was off with your energy even though I didn't know you that well but I feel like I know you deeply at the same time and I said to you in the green room beforehand when I say green room it was just like up a flight of stairs there was a fridge and one seat anyway um I was like are you okay and you said, oh, this thing has happened.

1:00:27Do you want me to talk about this? Yeah, you can talk about it. Yeah. Where Sophie's really upset with me because I was so stupid and I DM'd this woman in Manchester. Yeah. And Sophie found out and she's flown, she'd gone to film in Chelsea. In Argentina. In Argentina, she'd flown. She had seen these messages. Yeah. Yeah. And you were devastated. And I so understand that feeling of devastation when something is awry in your romantic relationship. It's so horrible and soul crushing. And I wanted to fix it before we went on stage. I was like, come on, Jamie. I know. I'm kidding. I wanted you to be okay.

1:01:09And I sort of weirdly believed in both of you because... Yeah, you did. Because I'd watched Made in Chelsea and I still do. But we also had this... Mia Culper. We also had this moment together, which this is not oversharing. Oh my God, yeah. Yeah. So what happened? Can I say this? You can say, yeah. Oh my God. Okay. This is no word of a lie. Okay. So Jamie came on How to Fail way back when, because your female best friend, Georgie LaRue, she and I followed each other on Instagram and we've kind of understood the connection. And I said to Georgie, I'm desperate to get Jamie on the podcast. And she was like, that's really easy.

1:01:48I'll sort that out. And that's how it happened. but I had never met Georgie in person. And so the three of us went for dinner. It was a seminal dinner in the history of dinners. It was so fun. We went to this place in Covent Garden. We got smashed on tequila and then all three of us saw a mouse in the restaurant. So forevermore that evening is known as tequila mouse. You climbed drunk into a digger. A digger. So we went onto the streets afterwards and I climbed onto an abandoned digger and you took a photo. And you couldn't understand why I wouldn't get on it with you? I was like why because the idea of Jamie on a digger is just so pure and sweet anyway um roll back home got up the next day it's the worst hangover I think I've ever had and I had to fly to Ireland but you I said to you wait no no so during that dinner you turned up and you were glowing Georgie and I were like what's been happening and you'd been I think dating Sophie on and off, we weren't really sure what was happening.

1:02:49And you said, I've just had sex with Sophie for the first time. It was the night before. And you said, honestly, I'm not being funny. It was electric. And you said, there was a point, this is so oversharing. There was a point when you were inside her. I'm so sorry. You can cut this out. You can cut this out. And you looked into her eyes and said, did you feel that? It was an electric shock. It was. It was an electric moment. But you never said, did she feel it? What did she reply? She honestly, I say this today and I whispered it and she was like, this is the biggest ick. She was like, this is vile.

1:03:31Like, what are you even like breathing on me saying this? But it was, it was like this electrical moment and it was, and I swear by it. I honestly, it was so bizarre and all these different things. And the reason why it was so profound for me was my grandmother had this experience that she told me that subconsciously I'd totally forgotten about. And she said that she was dating my grandfather's flatmate and she would go to the flat every single night. And she would see my grandfather, James, in the corner of the room with his hands on the newspaper doing the crossword. She loved his hands. Anyway, she never spoke to him.

1:04:07But one night the flatmate said to James, my grandfather, can you take Ruth, my grandmother, home? He said, absolutely fine. So she got in the car, took her home. had a conversation and my grandfather got out the car, walked around, opened the door and said to my grandmother, Ruth, we're here now. We're home. She said, I'm not getting out. And he said, you've got to get out. And she said, I don't want to. And he said, if you get out, I'll marry you. And she said, you'll regret that in the morning. And he put out his hand and they touched hands. And she said, she felt an electric shock. And anyway, she woke up the next day from a call from him.

1:04:36And he said, I don't regret it. And they were married for 60 years. It's amazing. Unbelievable. So I think with me, I had this sort of, this sort of idea in the back of my mind about love. But the interesting thing about Sophie, when those messages happened, what was really great about that is that firstly, I think we live in an age where we are always looking for the grass as greener. I think we're always, what my mum would say, window shopping. And whether that may be for new relationships or maybe new jobs or whatever it is. and it made me very quickly realise that when I had lost Sophie because I did lose Sophie because she didn't want anything to do with me you very quickly realise what you have lost and actually I was able luckily to work it out and get her back and all these different things but I give myself credit there because do you remember that I never having met Sophie but in that green room in Bath I was like you had said oh she really respects you or she listens to the podcast or something and I said do you want me to voice note her?

1:05:39Yes. And I voice noted her. Yes, you did. On Instagram. She must have thought, who is this total weirdo? And I was like, I just, I'm, I'm so feel for you, but I just want you to know that Jamie is genuinely devastated. And I think he's being completely truthful. And I think he'll change. And so I basically give myself credit for the two of you getting married and being the superstars that you are today. You're welcome. You saved the relationship. I didn't, but I always think of that moment.

1:06:10Okay, seven questions. You ready? I'm so ready. Let me take a sip of tea. Of tea. What's a saying or phrase that always makes you smile? The universe is unfolding exactly as it should. It just, it makes me calm. The universe has my back. Mine specifically, not yours though. I'm kidding. Everyone's. What scares you most about yourself? my tendency to be judgmental of myself so highly critical of myself and I think sometimes that extends to others because I just imagine that everyone else must be judging all of the time and I think that makes me judgmental and I think the other thing is um cowardice so my conflict avoidance, I think sometimes makes me too scared to say what's bothering me or if something has gone awry.

1:07:04Not in my romantic relationship, but more in my friendships or my work relationships. And then I end up in a real pickle because I haven't said anything. And then I have to do something dramatic to get out of it. And like that is something I'm really working on. So I think that makes me not as honest as I would like to be in those conflict heavy situations. god Jamie's like I just need snappy answers no I love these this is great as long as you want when was the last time you cried and why today in this podcast I held myself back but actually it was meeting that woman in Starbucks I cried then and before that it was watching MasterChef The Professionals the final so moving that guy Tom what a genius I will cry at anything my biggest cry was when i cried at the nat west advert when they when the person lost the scarf on the bus they got it back in the end i bet you cry at the john lewis advert every year oh my god sometimes just the music yeah yeah what's something you can't let go of the past so not only not only do I bear a grudge, like I, that's a Scorpio in us.

1:08:20I will forgive, but I will never forget. But it's also that I believe the past makes us who we are. And so that's why I don't want to let go of it. What's something that you're embarrassed for people to know you like or want? A British podcast award? No, I'm kidding. Half, half kidding. Half. I am not embarrassed by this, but I have an addiction to reality TV. I love the Real Housewives franchise. Those women have got me through some really difficult times. Genuinely. Do you like Salt Lake City? Yes. I watch them all, Jamie. I love them all. They are amazing. Sophie's obsessed. To the extent that I now think most scripted television is not that good, because it cannot compete.

1:09:11To the drama. With the drama and the authenticity of those women showing up as they are. And actually, it's so vanishingly rare to see women of that age on our screen in scripted drama. I mean, it's getting less rare, but I love those shows and they genuinely have taught me a lot. And I think they're kind of modern day Dickens. The way the plot spirals, it's ongoing, like so many subplots, so many different characters. I adore reality TV and some people are very judgmental love that. What turns you off? Unkindness and a lack of humour. What turns you on? Being sweet to animals. So if I'm with someone and they will stop almost every time they see a cute dog or a cat to give it a little tickle onto the chin, I find that so completely wonderful.

1:10:04What do you like most about yourself? I'm empathetic. I do think that is a thing that I have that I think is a good skill in an increasingly binary age of opinion. So yeah, I'm empathetic. And for bonus, what is your favorite swear word? Fuck. That came so quickly. I keep snapping my fingers. Who am I? Like Elton John. Fuck. It is just perfect. The length, the clarity of the consonants. I love swearing. I really do. And I, it was one of the things that first attracted Justin to me because on my Hinge profile, I swore and I used the word fuck and he was like, oh. What did your Hinge profile say?

1:10:47I can't, it was, I can't remember now. Um, I can't remember the context of the swear word fuck, but it was like, what competition would you? I'm down to that.

1:11:00I'm fucking great at fucking.

1:11:06I don't know what he saw in me, but somehow he was like, swipe right. I'm really down. That was just it. Oh my God. And there's just a picture of your book. Yeah. But it was before any of that. That's the wild thing. It's before How to Fail. So it was like, what is your favourite swear word? Which is when he goes, cunt. Clip that for TikTok, eh? Just look down the lens and say it. Daily Mail headline. I think mine is shit. I quite like shit. Oh, okay. And lastly, why are your 40s the best decade? Okay, so my 40s are my best decade yet because I feel that I know myself better than I've ever known myself before.

1:11:58I've accumulated some wisdom along the way that only comes with age and having been through some stuff. and I understand that I have the capacity to survive things when things don't go according to plan and that makes me feel really strong and I think all of that means that I am being myself and I'm being accepted and loved for being myself by the people closest to me so that's why my 40s are great and I think I'm I feel very lucky that I live in an age when we are redefining what our 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s mean I look around and I see amazing particularly women amazing women doing amazing things at my age and beyond and I love that and I think honestly I even style wise I think I know myself better and that's another thing that I think we is a lie that we look hottest when we're in our 20s I don't think that's true I don't think it's true either Elizabeth honestly I I could I could sit here and say all things you are just I don't want this to be some sort of 3M music all right but you are just you're incredible so kind so considerate and you always look out for me you always do and you're a true friend so thank you so much for coming on the podcast should we cry now let's cry now I love and adore you and anytime and I I think you're great.

1:13:28And this has been an epic chat. Thank you for having me. And I do want to say before we go, the new season of How to Fail. Thank you. Has just launched. Yes. And there is a whole new look. We've got a whole new studio. It's super exciting. We've got lots of exciting plans up on stage. We've got a YouTube channel for the first time. All of the bells and whistles. So yeah, please come and give us a listen. Go and listen to it right now. Elizabeth, thank you so much. Thank you.

1:13:58Thoughts? Excellent. Really? Loved it. So obviously the episode is a little bit cut down for the listener. We don't share everything. But you chatted for two hours. What? It was two hours? Yeah, and you could have kept going. Wow. Yeah. So that's interesting. So just from a production point of view, why do you want to cut it down? Because two hours is quite a long thing to listen to, to hold someone's attention for. And there are things which kind of just may be interesting to you, but wouldn't be interesting to a listener. Is it hard to find things to cut out sometimes? In this one, yes. Wow.

1:14:35Because it was really good. But yeah, that was just a wonderful interview and well done on the silence. Thank you. Can you tell the difference when I'm interviewing a friend to interviewing someone who I potentially don't know? You're a lot more relaxed, I think. Really? But you're quite, you are very good at putting people at ease. Okay. So when you're with a friend, you can tell you're very relaxed. There are some people that you interview who maybe you don't know, or maybe are a little bit shyer because they don't know you. And I can feel that you're kind of really working to kind of, you're basically trying to build their trust.

1:15:12Interesting, yeah. Whereas with Elizabeth, you already have that. That's very true. And I think especially with an intimate setting like this, because it's one-on-one and you're looking at each other. and that is an intense atmosphere especially with cameras and microphones in front of you so you do you have to make them feel at ease and try and gain their trust that's what I'm always trying to do yeah amazing that Elizabeth is just so open about relationships and fertility and yeah yeah and I love that little um tidbit she gave about when about you and Sophie's relationship and that when you flew you saw her and then flew out to Buenos Aires yeah that's right but what's really funny is I watched that series of Made in Chelsea.

1:15:51Did you? Yeah. So it's really weird being like, oh my God, I've seen that. I remember you flying and landing. So weird, like hearing the backstory of that. Oh my God. It was so amazing. And Elizabeth gave me such great advice and she's a great friend. And for anyone listening, I feel like the relationship advice she gave was just incredible about being broken hearted and getting back in your feet and just also about fertility and just getting through things. She just, what an amazing person. I really want to be her friend really really i reckon you could be i also there were so many things again i feel like most of the interviews we have i'm just like nodding really furiously but when she was like i'm a scorpio i was like i'm a scorpio too you're a scorpio we're all scorpios well elizabeth if you're listening to the producer jemima please get in touch be your friend it also really moved me really yeah there's a little bit when she got upset and i was really welling up well good as As a producer that you're holding your nerve throughout because then you...

1:16:47Well, otherwise you hear me in the corner like... You are meant to be. As the producer of the show, you know when you go onto airplanes and you see the air stewards or air hostesses and they start to panic, then the whole room starts to panic and the whole flight does. As a producer, you can't because then the whole room starts to become weepy. Yeah, true. But I do quite often get... I'm quite a weepy person. Yeah, but that's okay. I like being close to a weep. Vulnerability is... When was the last time you wept? Cried? Wow. I cry at movies, but crying just naturally. I watched Titanic the other day.

1:17:19Yes. Horrific. Unbelievable. Horrific. That scene where the two old couple are holding hands on the bed when it's sinking. Oh my God. Horrible. It's a horrible film. Amazing film. No one watch it. Incredible film. It was, I sat for two hours just like with my jaw open. Jaw open? Mouth open. I don't know. I don't know. All right, everybody. Next week we have... Zara Larsson. Amazing. Another pop star. Pop star Zara Larsson. I've met her before. Have you? Yeah. I've chatted to her before. Actually, I interviewed her once, but very briefly. And we kind of just stayed in touch over messaging occasionally.

1:17:55And just a big fan of hers. Love her energy. Love how open she is. And that is going to be an amazing chat. So I can't wait for it. She is a cool, cool gal. She's an amazing gal. So stay tuned. Stay ready for that. Okay, so stay ready all week. Stay ready all week for Zara Larsson Poised, which is going to be next episode of Great Company. Thank you so much for listening. Have the most incredible day, whatever you're doing. And hopefully we've given you some great company.

1:18:39Hello everyone, we're Jamie and Sophie You may remember us from Nearlyweds and then Newlyweds But now guys, things are about to get even wilder As we take on our biggest adventure yet becoming parents. Yeah, that's right. Newlyweds is now Nearly Parents and we're bringing you the same honest, heartwarming takes on our journey to parenthood, I guess. Join us as we find out what it really means to become a family while trying not to kill each other. Get ready for Nearly Parents, your favourite new podcast.