FEARNE COTTON: How I Set Boundaries & Stopped Being a People Pleaser

0:00Fearne Cotton: I had diluted myself down to a version of me that was just beige enough to get by, so no one gave me shit. It absolutely crushed me. Being in the entertainment business, it's all about being liked. But it was survival being likeable, because if I wasn't likeable, I didn't have a job. The audience turn against you, you are screwed. And I was incredibly depressed for a long time and on medication just to like, you know, still going to Radio 1 every day and having to deal with all of it, it all just hit me in one big lump, and it was utterly horrendous. Hello, I'm Fern Cotton, and I'm in great company.

0:41A round of applause for Fern Cotton, everybody.

0:43Fearne Cotton: And now here's Fern Cotton. I heard that you had a boyfriend once who said you could never get any tattoos, and so to rebel, you got a tattoo. Is this right? Do you want to see it? Fucking massive. That went down really badly. You started TV at 15. Yes. Very lucky. I have a job that I love and I've been doing it for a very long time. But it can be absolutely horrific. And two things can be true at the same time. And then sort of subsequently went through a big, big patch of anxiety and panic after that. That was, you know, debilitating. So it was suddenly out of nowhere. Yeah. I couldn't do live TV.

1:18Fearne Cotton: I had to stop doing live radio. I couldn't drive a car on the motorway or an A-road because the speed would give me a panic attack. But the last four years, I have tackled all of it head on. How do you do that? Okay, so I can't believe I'm saying this. Guys, welcome back to another episode of Great Company. Firstly, thank you so much for coming back. Really appreciate it. Today's episode is with a great friend of mine, Fern Cotton. And weirdly, Fern and I and a couple of our friends, we go for dinners like every other month to chat about life and everything. So having this podcast here is like one of our dinners.

1:49We chat about parenting, the fact that I become a new dad. That is kind of really interesting for me. We also talk about how Fern is stopping being a people pleaser. And we also talk about how she experienced panic attacks and anxiety and how she's overcome that. Today's episode goes all over the place and I can't wait for you to listen to it. Now, before we start again, if I can ask you just one thing, which is subscribe to our show. I know I keep asking you every single week, but it does us wonders. And it means we can keep making the show better and better for you each week. So join the community and click subscribe if you can.

2:19Okay, here we go. enjoy this amazing episode of Great Company with Fern Cotton. Having kids is exhausting. Understatement. That's how I'm going to go straight in there with that.

2:31Fearne Cotton: Straight in. Fern, it's crazy. I know. And do you know what? We obviously, we had dinner not long before Ziggy was born. Yeah. And you can't do the thing of saying to a mate, oh my God, watch out, like the tiredness is bleak. You can't. You just got to, you experience it as you do and you learn on the job. but it's unreal. But you've already, you've been there, you've experienced it, you're still in it, you've got teenagers. It doesn't end. It doesn't end. It never ends. It never ends. No. No. And it does get easier in ways. You know, I'm not sort of wiping shitty arses anymore, but... Yeah, that's a good thing.

3:08Fearne Cotton: You are dealing with other stuff like get off your phone, get off the PlayStation. You know, there's other things that replace the shitty bums. And sleep can still sometimes be bad if they're ill or... One of them's had a nightmare. You know, my daughter will still get in the bed with me here and there. So, yeah, which is gorgeous. But this is like, you're in this for at least 18 years, Jamie Lang. Okay. Like this is crazy. It's just endless. I used to look at people who had kids and they used to think, poor you. Yeah. But also used to think like, it can't be that hard. It can't be that hard. Yeah.

3:42Fearne Cotton: Like, what do you do all day? Yeah. Like, come on. And then when you have kids, there is like this, your brain opens up in a weird kind kind of way. And the whole idea of life changes. Everything. Everything changes. Everything. And I'm, I'm in a really nice bit of parenting. I'm really enjoying the ages that my kids are at now. Honey's 10, Rex turns 13 in a couple of weeks, which is wild. Is it totally wild? Yeah. He's the same height as me. It's just like, what's, what's going on? Who's this huge man? But it's so nice because we're doing stuff together. Like me and Rex started boxing together last week, which was so fun.

4:18Fearne Cotton: And, you know, Honey is a classic 10-year-old who wants to talk about makeup and skincare, which is crazy, which she's obviously not using. But we're having fun chats, and it's just a whole new era that I'm entering that I'm loving. Are you a cool mum? No. Rex says cringe to me five, six times a day. It's constant cringe. Is that tricky, though, Femme? Because especially this connects to your book, right? Likeable. Yes. Do you want your kids to like you and think you're cool? Or are you kind of calm in that space of going, I get it because they're my kids. I don't need to do that. That's a really interesting crossover moment.

4:57Fearne Cotton: You feel so differently about that subject matter with your kids because there's points where they don't like you, especially the bit I'm in with Rex now, where you're just doing a lot of nagging for, you know, clean your teeth, put some deodorant on, have a shower, because otherwise Rex would quite literally just game all day if I let him. but that's part of my job if I were just to be like yeah I'm so laid back and cool you do what you want man you know he would literally just be driving a fake car all day so I have to implement some structure and some boundaries so yeah I know there's times when I annoy him and you know and he probably just thinks get the hell away from me but it's essential that I've got some boundaries in place so I'm sort of less worried about that I heard that you had a boyfriend once who said you could never get any tattoos and so to rebel you got a tattoo is this right do you want to see it fucking massive because i'm quite all or nothing with not everything but some things so when this person was like you shouldn't get any more tattoos i went big okay it's this flower as you can see that's amazing so suffice to say that went down really badly Young Fern Cotton in her 20s dating.

6:12Was that a wild time?

6:14Fearne Cotton: Yes, mainly because I could never understand at the time what is all of this about, but I was followed relentlessly by paps at that point in my life, relentlessly. Like they boarded flights to LA to pat me at the other end and no one paps me now. I'm far too boring and I'm very comfy with that. Do you look back at, you know, your early years and that period, fondness, like it, love it? Do you miss it? What do you feel? I look back at bits of it with pure delight because it was, I did some extraordinary things and things that I am so grateful to have had the opportunity to do. Like the amount of traveling I did and interesting people that I met and people like Amy Winehouse who are these mythical creatures.

6:55Fearne Cotton: And it's like, I was so lucky I got to interview her. I got to hang out with her. I got to see her perform. I feel so lucky that I got all of those opportunities. You know, Radio 1 especially gave me just so many brilliant chances to see the world's greatest musicians this close playing live. In that live lounge? In that live lounge. I mean, they are some of the greatest moments of my life. Like who? Like what people did you have? One that stands out, which I'll never forget. It was at Maida Vale. And I was quite literally stood in a big studio with my producer, Just Us Two, and Eminem on his own, stood as far as you are away from me now rapping in my face and I'm just stood there going how is this happening?

7:38Fearne Cotton: Like this shouldn't be happening. I'm just some twerp from the suburbs. What is going on? And you see the level of exception with someone of his caliber. I have never seen anything so slick in my life. In the rehearsal he was swearing and cussing and we were like oh my god I'm going to have to interrupt him mid-life performance and stop it. And as soon as he went live, he self-edited like I've never seen. And he was full of charisma, full of energy. He is just it. And it's moments like that that I just feel so lucky to have experienced. But I think there's some real stand-up moments. Like my early 20s, I must have been like 23, 24.

8:21Fearne Cotton: I got to do this quite long-form interview, which was rare at the time because podcasting didn't exist. this is like 20 years ago, with Prince William and Prince Harry. And we were all kind of the same age. So we kind of, you know, all stood there awkwardly in our 20s making small talk. And it was a real out of body experience of just like, how have I ended up at Clarence House? This is madness. And I was so nervous in the interview. I remember I'd prepped for like months beforehand learning this interview verbatim so I didn't have to look at my notes. I was just so studious about the whole thing.

8:55Fearne Cotton: I'm sure if I look back, it'd be awful. But the opportunity itself felt so otherworldly at the time. And I think some of me misses that level of excitement. Because not that I'm like hanging out at Clarence's house all the time, but you do become slightly more used to, oh, there's a really famous person. I know. Do you know what? I chatted to Catherine Ryan and she said to me something slightly depressing. She said when she went to her first comedy gig, when she started going on a bit of a tour, her tour manager said, this is going to be your most exciting moment. Yeah. Which is kind of upsetting.

9:29And that childlike energy... There's innocence to it.

9:32Fearne Cotton: I think getting the Disney Club job is still the greatest moment of my career. And that was the first day of it. Was it really? Yeah, the greatest day of my career, without a doubt. Because I just felt like, in that moment, I felt like I had made it. And I've never had that feeling since. The one thing you know you're good at is interviewing. Yeah. You know, I've been on your podcast and it's just the way that you move through the narrative and you make someone feel comfortable and you ask great questions. Have you always been like that? No, God, no. And I'm probably only at an age now where I feel happy sitting here and going, yeah, I am good at it.

10:05Fearne Cotton: I think we're all told, all of us, that we shouldn't say we're good at things. It's like, what a big head, whatever. But it's like, I've been interviewing people for 27-ish something years. You'd hope I'd be good at it after that long, after doing something again and again and again. and I used to obviously be terrible at it. I think the ultimate goal when you're good at something is being able to enjoy it whilst you're doing it. And when you're not good at something without any judgment, because I was terrible back in the day, you're not enjoying it because you're just scrambling constantly and hoping that you get through it.

10:37Fearne Cotton: And I think I'm at the point now where I love interviewing people. I, you know, I can still feel nervous. It's not like I'm just walking in like, yeah, I'm the best at this. Let's go. I'm not the best at it. I enjoy it and I love it and I've honed a skill that enables me to let it flow and to be in it and not thinking about eight million things or feeling insecure. But that took me a very, very long time. Who do you feel nervous with? Do you know what? I'm much more terrified being interviewed than I am interviewing people. Really? Absolutely. Because I'm out of control. So right now you feel a bit more uncomfortable than you would if you were doing it to me.

11:13Fearne Cotton: A hundred percent. What? Yes, yes, yes, yes. I like being in control. I'm in the driving seat. I feel like you are in control right now. Good. My least favourite thing is what I've got to do later on this evening, or this afternoon, which is journalists interviewing me. I feel that journalists are often, and this is a hangover from my old life, I think, are superior because they probably went to Oxbridge and they're English graduates or whatever they've done. And I feel like they're looking down at me. And I'm generalising because there are some lovely journalists out there. but I'm generalizing here that they're looking down on me and just like stupid 12 for telly and and that's the that's my dynamic from the get-go so I used to be very eager and hello how are you like please like me god please like me and now I have to really check myself and go it doesn't matter like you can hold your own you've done your job for a very long time I have to talk to myself to get into that headspace I think because I've had some pretty horrendous experiences over the years where journalists have either asked me questions that are deeply inappropriate.

12:20Fearne Cotton: Actually, I talk about one of them in the book. And it was a very, very senior person in the world of newspapers back in the day. And this would never happen today, I don't think. And I was a young woman, probably in my early 20s. And I was taken up to a hotel suite with this guy. And I'm inexperienced. And I certainly don't have the confidence. And I instantly feel like he is far superior to me. And that was the transaction. And he said to me, um, something along the lines of, you know, what's your like kink in the bedroom? And I'm in my early twenties. I don't want to talk about sex in my early twenties.

12:59Fearne Cotton: I'd be much more comfortable now. I'm in my forties and it's something I don't feel like women should be ashamed to talk about. In my twenties, I was terrified to answer that question. And again, now if I was uncomfortable answering something, I'd say, I'm not, I don't want to answer that. Or look, you know that that's not cool to say that let's move on. But back then I did not have that confidence. And because I was sort of, um, oh, uh, you know, like trying to think of anything. He, he then said, Oh, blah, blah, blah. A brilliant musician that I knew who was about the same age as me. She said it was wearing shoes in the bedroom or something.

13:37Fearne Cotton: So I thought, Oh my God, she came up with an answer. She must've just felt really cool about saying it. I've got to say something. So I gave an answer. I've no idea what I said. Very uncomfortably. I felt sick about it. Went home, dreamt about it. Couldn't stop obsessing about it for weeks. Felt ashamed, foolish, like I'd been sort of coerced into this position I didn't want to be in. It was just horrific. That journalist wouldn't ask a man the same question? God, no. Of course not. did you feel like you had to be even more likable and liked because you were a woman? Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think it's the same today.

14:17Fearne Cotton: If you're a CEO, a female CEO, or a female director, or a female, anyone who has a level of authority in the workplace, we could still be called bossy, a bitch. We need our female authority to still actually be soft and gentle and nurturing. Whereas men are seen as assertive and they have that position of authority and we listen. And I think that's still true today. I don't think that's changed at all. So I think that's the issue we've got is we, you know, I'm the first generation in my lineage advantage as a female to have a career. You know, my, my mum had four or five different jobs at any one time from being a cleaner to delivering clothing packages and my grandma's didn't work.

15:08Fearne Cotton: So I'm like, on one hand, I'm like, Christ, I've got a responsibility here. I need to go out in the workplace and give it my all. And I can hear them cheering me on, but equally the world still says, well, you better be fucking loading the dishwasher while you're doing that. Like you better be doing the school run every day. So I don't think much has changed. But I think back then, you know, it was the era in the 90s of the lads mag. And you had to be a kind of, if you wanted to go from kids TV to adult TV, you needed to be a bit sexy and lose the pigtails. And that was definitely a pressure I think a lot of presenters in that era felt.

15:47Because you started TV at 15.

15:49Fearne Cotton: Yes. Your mum said, yeah, cool, go and do it. Oh, yeah. My mum is the laid back about, I mean, not laid back about everything, but she was pretty, she was kind of cool about most things. The rules were maybe lacking a bit, I would say, in some ways. And she was like... Like, what could you do? What could you do? I mean, we used to sort of like go out together on a school night, which now looking back is absurd. Get out of here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You did? Yes. Yeah, we used to go to this golf club near where I lived and hang out and I would drink cider and on a Wednesday night, like bizarre. But she was, my parents have always been, my parents are like working class people.

16:31Fearne Cotton: They've worked so hard their whole lives. And I think they saw that I had this great interest and passion in something and an opportunity. So they were like, go for it. Absolutely go for it. We're behind you. And I've only realized now how much of a toll that probably, you know, took on them because, you know, my dad would have to, for instance, every time I was to miss a day of school, he'd have to go to the local town hall to get some sort of letter to say that I could miss school to then, you know, go and go to the studio for the day. and he was working long hours. He was a sign writer. So I think I just was like, yeah, I'm just living the dream and doing my thing.

17:09Fearne Cotton: But for them, it was weird. And, you know, I'm sure they had concerns about me entering this weird industry and who they could trust and who they couldn't. And, you know, it's been just a wild rollercoaster. So would you allow Rex to go and do something like that? If he was really adamant that that's his path, that's what he wants to do, I would but but not without a lot of deep conversations about what it means not not the job itself because I think the job is like any job you learn a skill you get better at it over time but I think the public facing bit that's the bit where I would want to sit with him and say you know this is this is full-on and you need to be ready for it and and also some of it's going to be awful.

17:55Fearne Cotton: It just is. Like some of it is going to be really hard. And, you know, are you, are you up for that? And I think I would worry a lot about that side of it, but I'm not going to stop my kids doing anything. Because that's a hard thing, right? You, you kind of want to allow your kids to fall out the tree and hurt themselves, but also you want to teach them how to climb at the same time. So it's a weird balance that you have with them, isn't it? Yeah. I think especially if it is a job that you've done and you've made the mistakes, you don't want them to, to fall into the same sort of problems, but they need to, to learn.

18:27Fearne Cotton: You know, like when we were kids, people give you advice and you're like eye rolling, like, yeah, yeah. And then you make the mistake and you're like, oh God, that was really not good. That was bad. And you sort of wish you had listened, but you've got to make the mistake yourself. So I don't know. I mean, we're not there yet with any of it. And I don't know how I would deal with that conversation, but I would certainly make my priority ensuring that we would always have an open conversation about how hard it is to be in the public eye. And I used to be very trepidatious about saying that because obviously people can go, oh, fuck off.

19:04Fearne Cotton: You know, like you've got a great job. What have you got to moan about? But I'm now at an age and I guess a place like having just written this book where two things can be true. Yes, I'm very lucky. I have a job that I love and I've been doing it for a very long time. But alongside that is the fact that it can be absolutely horrific. So I don't want to either lie and say, yeah, it's all great. I'm so privileged. I'm so lucky. Yes, part of my life is full of luck and opportunity. And I'm so, so grateful for all of it. But equally, the tough side is really shit. And unless you've been in a press shit storm, or people have been slagging you off online or, you know, saying things about you when they don't know you, you've got no idea how that feels unless you've dealt with it en masse.

19:55But how do you think growing up on screen, right, at such a young age, how do you think that shaped your identity?

20:00Fearne Cotton: Probably badly. I think probably badly. I wouldn't change, I would change bits of it, but I wouldn't change starting TV then because I was able to learn a skill without social media involved without any huge outside commentary I just went to work did the job went home and learned each time I did it so I was very lucky um because you know if you I'm sure not I want to but if I looked back at that early presenting stuff it would be bad you know understatement I'd be awful because I didn't know what I was doing I was learning but there was no getting home and like scrolling and looking did people like me on that day you just went home and then I probably went out with my mates and went to the shopping center or something, you know, just had a normal life outside of it.

20:48Fearne Cotton: But I think it probably impacted me negatively in terms of the hyper awareness you have about how you're coming across. And I'm now at this age, unpicking all of that and trying to just be me on any given day, whether that's a day where I'm knackered and feel like shit, or like today I feel good. I feel pretty balanced. I slept relatively well last night. Sorry. And I'm, and I'm sort of like, yeah, today's a day where I'm, I'm able just to relax into being myself. But I think back, you know, probably in my twenties, I was so away. Now when you're on radio, certainly, as you know, you're getting constant bombardment of messages of people saying, loving the show.

21:30Fearne Cotton: I've got something to say. You're a twat. Uh, this is great. You're annoying. You know, it's a head fuck. You're constantly like, sorry, there's so much information. So I think for a while it impacted me very negatively. And now I'm learning to live alongside that because that won't change. Being in the entertainment business, it's all about being liked. Yeah. By the audience, by commissioners, by producers. Yes, it became for me distorted because, and this sounds overly dramatic, and I say this in the book, but it was survival being likable. Because if I wasn't likable, I didn't have a job. And then that would send me hurtling back to my old life where I didn't know what else I could do or wanted to do.

22:15Fearne Cotton: That was it. I just wanted to, at that point, be a TV presenter. And if you're not likable, you don't have those opportunities. Or if the audience turn against you, you are screwed. So for me, it became not just something that propped up my self-worth or made me feel like I was doing a good job. It was survival. In the book, you talk about how you were publicly disliked at times. But the firm that I know, I don't remember that. Yeah, because I don't think, for me, always, I think, you know, it feels bigger when it's you, doesn't it? When you're experiencing it. But I certainly had periods where there was a lot of noise around me and people making assumptions about me and stories out there.

23:01Fearne Cotton: And it absolutely crushed me to the point of... How old are you at this point? Like in my early 30s. And I just thought, you know, I don't want to do this anymore. This is, it's too much. It's, I can't live alongside this noise. And I was so unsure of myself at that point. And I was also, you know, a parent for the first time. So there's a lot going on. And I just thought it's not worth it. And that's, you know, that's, that's for me was the darkest time, but also this amazing opportunity for me to do life differently. And that's, you know, where Happy Place came from. And everything I've done since has been because I hit that rock bottom.

23:49Fearne Cotton: And I was incredibly depressed for a long time and on medication just to like, you know, still going to Radio 1 every day and having to deal with all of it. And then sort of subsequently went through a big, big patch of anxiety and panic after that that was, you know, debilitating. and I didn't understand the anxiety at that point at all. So I was just in it. So you had never had it before? No, no, never had it before. You've had, it was suddenly out of nowhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd never had an ounce of anxiety. And I used to go on live TV as a teenager, calm as you like, zero nerves. Like a teeny tingle of like, oh, it's exciting.

24:32Fearne Cotton: But not like, when I was in that era, in my 30s, I couldn't do live TV. I had to stop doing live radio. I couldn't drive a car on the motorway or an A-road because the speed would give me a panic attack. Bumping into someone that I didn't know I was going to see would give me a panic attack. It all just hit me in one big lump and it was utterly horrendous. And I had never understood what a panic attack was before that. I was like, what are people going on about a panic attack? I don't understand it. My God, it was horrendous. I was having them at worst, like every couple of hours, I would have one or I'd have them all through the night.

25:13Fearne Cotton: If I had a TV job in the morning that I knew I had to do, like a live TV appearance, I had to go on Lorraine or whatever, I would not sleep. I would have my heart would race all night. I'd be like sitting up in bed. I couldn't breathe. I felt like I was going to puke. It was, it was really extreme. And I sort of downplay, I used to gaslight myself and go, people have got it far worse. Like stop, just stop even thinking about it just get on with it and that obviously doesn't help because if you're not looking at it you can't heal from it so I was just in it and it's only been I would say the last four years probably since I turned 40 that I've really tackled it so you think it was around 10 years oh yeah yeah yeah I'd say not as severe as that but I still was having odd panic attacks here and there.

26:00Fearne Cotton: The depression kind of subsided and it was more like anxiety and OCD that came into it because that created some sort of safety framework for me in the panic. But the last four years, I have tackled all of it head on. And I would go as far to say that I'm again like it feels treacherous to say it but I think I'm feeling mentally the best I have and that's not to say I don't have really shit days because I do I have bad days I have days where I feel fucking stressed out but I'm not where I was if I look back I go bloody hell I'm nowhere near that and that's why it's so important for someone like you to talk about it because when you're in that place you feel like there's no end no end to it you feel imprisoned within your own body especially when it's to do with panic yeah and you are living in constant fear.

26:52And in your head, you're just going, well, this is me forever. Yeah. This is me forever. And you can't see a way out. And that is a scary place to get to.

26:57Fearne Cotton: It is because it really, it's very debilitating and you stop doing things that you like doing. You know, I sort of almost stopped socializing entirely, or I certainly didn't enjoy it when I did because I was so panicked. I would say something stupid or, or I would have to go home and replay the whole night over and over again to make sure I hadn't sort of messed up during the evening. And then I would just think it's just easier to stay at home. I'll just, I won't go out. And I think this is why I'm loving my forties as a woman is that all of that is coming back. Like I want to go out. I want to see people.

27:33Fearne Cotton: I want to have fun. I don't care as much if I mess up. Yes, it's still uncomfortable. Like it is for all of us, but I'm not beating myself over the head for like years worrying about one stupid thing I said or one thing I messed up Oh my God. Are you kidding me? I need to caveat this because you and I, we spoke about this in your podcast, your great podcast, but we've been for dinners, right? And I find Fern Godden is one of the most alpha women I've ever met. When we go for a dinner, it's our great friend Elizabeth Day and we're sitting there. These are my, by the way, these dinners. The greatest.

28:07Fearne Cotton: I've never laughed so much. I've never, there's laughing when no one's making noise because we're wheezing. Like it's just air coming out. It's honestly It's the best Everything Everything We have fixed the world By the end of these dinners But one of our first dinners we did We were having a dinner And I was like I had a shot And I was like Oh we're getting on some tequilas maybe This year we freaking go And I was like Hey Elizabeth Let's order another espresso martini I'm drinking coffee I don't drink coffee ever Yeah It's like 11 at night So I am up I am going to be awake And as I'm literally sipping and drinking the espresso martini I look around And Fern Cotton has got up put a coat on he goes right guys I'm going home and I went um okay and you were like yeah it was the most amazing kind of like and you were like yeah I'm done I'm done now yeah I've had a great time but I'm off and Elizabeth and I like puppies followed you out the restaurant and we were like well I guess but that for me is someone who you talk about being liked and having panic and having anxiety and worrying about whether I did that is someone with what I would say real confidence yeah but it took me so long to get to that place.

29:18Fearne Cotton: This is very new. It's in the last few years that I felt I can exercise my voice and truly, because I've always luckily throughout my adult life had a platform to say things, not always my words, but I've had that platform, but rarely in that era were they totally authentic because it was too scary. And if I did show a bit of myself that felt authentic and I got backlash, I would think, right, lock that away. Never bring that out again. Get out of here. Probably towards the end of my Radio 1 career, I had diluted myself down to a version of me that was just sort of beige enough to get by. So no one gave me shit.

29:58It's the curse of success. It really is. You see it in business. You see it in a personal brand. You know, you started out at 15 years old, just being you.

30:08Fearne Cotton: Yeah. Going out. And I was totally myself back then. Totally myself. Because you have that naivety. And I've said this so many times, but there's this great conversation which is about how experience ruins innocence. And why if we stay innocent, it's the greatest thing. The reason why kids can climb to the top of the tree is because they're not worried about hurting themselves. As we get older, we don't do that because we're like, oh, what happens if we fall out and break? And so we lose that. I find it so interesting how people then start to filter themselves because they try to become a version that they think other people want to be rather than being a version of what they should be.

30:40So this has been my big learning in writing this book is, okay, so what even does it mean to be likable? I've landed on its compliance.

30:51Fearne Cotton: It's complying to the conditions, the surroundings, the people you're with so that you do not rock the boat. That's being likable. It's not just about being a likable person. You know, you're a likable person. We've got Elizabeth Day is a likable person. But when it becomes your identity, that's when it becomes something where you manipulate who you are to fit into surroundings. So actually, you're not being liked for you. You're being liked for a fantasy version of yourself you've created to please everybody. So you're not actually being liked at all. So I'm trying to fully immerse myself in a life where I am me as much as I can possibly be.

31:35Fearne Cotton: And if you like me for that, that's a bonus. If you don't, at least you don't like me for being exactly who I actually am. I think that feels better. But it's something that I'm still tentatively learning about. How do you do that? Because the ultimate... Practice. It's exposure, right? I think it's practice. I think it's, for instance, if you're a people pleaser who always says yes, I was very much that person. I would almost be saying yes before someone had finished asking me to do something for them. And inside I'm going, I don't want to fucking do that. There's not a bit of me that wants to do what I've just said yes to.

32:11And I'm going, oh yeah, of course.

32:14Fearne Cotton: I mean, do you know what? I'll do it twice. Do you know what I mean? I'm like giving them more. And actually in the last few years that I've been diving into this subject, thinking about it, it's been practicing saying, kind of think about that to give myself the time. And then maybe coming back and just saying, do you know what? At the moment, I'm so overwhelmed. I can't do that for you, or I can't give you my time or whatever it might be. And yeah, it's icky. You feel uncomfortable, but usually if the other person is pretty decent human, they'll get it. They'll understand. And And actually, I think there's a ripple effect in terms of them feeling able to do the same in their lives.

32:52Fearne Cotton: So it doesn't always work out like that. You do piss people off. And that's another part of the learning curve is being in the discomfort of pissing someone off and dealing with it. Why do we fear that? Why, not every individual, but a huge majority of us, we fear the response of giving a negative answer to something. I, again, from digging into this subject, believe it's because of the social conditioning we've all been through. We get to whatever age it is, late teens, 20s, 30s, you're probably getting slightly more existential and thinking about life. And we sit there and we wonder, am I a good person or am I an absolute arsehole?

33:31Fearne Cotton: And we're not entirely sure because sometimes the world tells us, you got it wrong, you're a bad person. And it could be anything. You see something on social media and you think, oh God, I don't actually agree with this whole thing that's going on. Or someone says something and you're like, well, I've done that. Am I an awful person? You know, there's so much messaging that we're not sure if we're good people. And yes, we hear about a lot of awful shit going on in the world and bad people out there. They exist. But I think the majority of people are good people. But that doesn't mean you can't mess up, get things wrong, upset people.

34:06Fearne Cotton: We're human. We're not here to be like benevolent little robots. But when we've been sort of conditioned to think we can't mess up, we can't say no, we can't annoy anybody, we can't live life in a way that feels right to us and might be wrong to other people, because we assume it means we're a bad person. And I think those binary concepts are causing us a lot of problems. I remember I had a conversation with a bunch of my guy friends years ago and we were talking about our worst fears and it was going around and one was like I'm scared of being like buried alive or like whatever it was came to me and I said I think my biggest fear is not being liked and every single one of them went well yeah of course that's yeah but it's weird no one especially for men especially for men it's weird why is that because I think it sort of it can kind of stink of desperation in a way.

34:58Fearne Cotton: And I think at points I was desperate to be liked and that's not appealing or sexy or, you know, we're very much taught that aloof is cool. I actually write about two people in the book because I was enamored by them. And there were these female DJs called Queens of Noise and they were it. And I would go to the gigs and be stood there thinking, oh my God, I want to be like them, but I know I'm not. I'm like, I'm sort of goofy and I'm still also kind of listening to Hanson at home. So like, this is not great. And I went to the hairdressers in Harrow and I said, dye my hair, dark, dark brown, black at the back and a blonde bit at the front because that's what Maraed had.

35:39Fearne Cotton: And I straight up copied her hair. And I thought that when I walked out the hairdressers, I'd be like, it's, it's happened. Like, I'm cool. I've done it. I'm like her. And then I just felt like a twat. And I went home and I was like, I look like a moron. I've obviously copied her hair. I'm still not cool. I'm an absolute dork. This is not good. But I was desperate to have that thing that they had. It's sort of an indescribable. And they were like, they weren't aloof or whatever. They were kind of fun and cool and doing cartwheels to the DJ booth. And everyone was just like, they're just amazing.

36:17Fearne Cotton: but I wasn't cool. I was always sort of like quite tired by 10pm and wanting to go to bed. You know, they'd be up till seven the next morning and I'd be like blinking in the corner trying to keep my eyes open. They were just cool. Okay, being cool really in a way is kind of being yourself. It's being yourself. Being yourself. When you're a grown adult, that's what you realise. Unapologetically yourself. Yes, correct. And what you were doing is you were trying to mimic someone else because you thought that would make you cool. And that's the problem with social media as well. What we do is that we wake up and we see all these people and go, well, they're doing that, don't they?

36:48So I'm going to copy.

36:49Fearne Cotton: Yeah. Or I'm going to not quite copy, get close to because that will, no. Doesn't work. Doesn't work. And also anything you do, as we all know, on the exterior doesn't touch the sides. I got loads of my hair cut off yesterday and I felt fucking fantastic for five minutes. And then all my problems came back and I was like, okay, the haircut didn't solve the problems. We have to do the really hard, sometimes boring, laborious work inside. And that might be a life's work. That might be a lifetime of self-discovery or therapy or figuring out what makes you tick. It might be forever. But doing all the stuff that we assume is going to fix it, like getting the perfect partner, getting paid more, being able to get the shoes that you've always wanted or the car you've always wanted, doesn't work.

37:37Fearne Cotton: And we know it. We know it doesn't work, but we still do it. I interviewed Ant and Dec for my podcast. And if Ant and Dec can sit there saying, we don't feel we've made it, what hope is there for any of us? They are the top of the tree. They don't feel they've made it because there's always another rung of the ladder. There's always another place to get to. So we're sort of scrambling around trying to get that feeling from stuff and exterior validation. and you know being likable is one of those things that we grab hold of to try and feel like we're fixed none of it works we've got to do the boring bit which takes years and years and years you know i spoke to a guy on the podcast a guy called he's called robert but to his friends he's bob and um wait waldinger yes oh i love the guy god oh my god he is exceptional that book i love him i love him and he could be that sort of person having been like a big or still is a big harvard professor where you're like, I'm so stupid.

38:36Fearne Cotton: I shouldn't be sat with him. But he doesn't make you feel like that. He's just a nice person. Yeah, he's great. And what he says is that if you ask people who are much later in their life, maybe towards like the end of their lives, what they say is they don't talk about what successes they have. They don't talk about what they achieved, the BAFTAs they won, the cars they drove. They talk about the relationships they had. And we're fooling ourselves a little bit in life. Of course we are. Thinking these things are the haircut, the job, the books that we make, the podcasts that we do. that is going to make us fulfilled later in life, but actually it's not.

39:07Fearne Cotton: No, we're very similar. And we've, we've talked about this when we've been at dinner, that we've both kind of got that drive where we want to keep achieving and doing more. And some of that I think does come from a healthy place. If you want to challenge yourself, you want to see maybe what your full potential is. If you can get anywhere near it, you want to keep learning. And I think if you're aware of it, it can be a real healthy challenge to have in mind. But I think when it becomes a goal that you're going to somehow reach this nirvana and go, okay, I've made it. I'm good. That will never come.

39:40Fearne Cotton: That will never come. Do you think we can change who we are? So if we want to be likeable, if we are a people pleaser, if we are scared of whatever it may be, do you think we can change that within ourselves? Yeah, I think you can. I think it's slow. And I think we have to be realistic that we're not going to change entirely. You know, I'm always going to be a bit kind of hyperactive and driven and want to do a million things. But I think when life happens, whether it's positive or negative, it could be the birth of a child. It could be something pretty bleak. It could be a health thing. You know, I had some health stuff last year or the year before.

40:19Fearne Cotton: I think it does change your perspective or, you know, you lose somebody, someone dies. You know, there's cliche moments where you go, God, I need to stop and look at what am I doing? You know, is this worth it? Am I, is my drive or what I'm trying to achieve detrimental to my general wellbeing? And I think you'd be mad to not look at the outcome or the signs and make changes. So I do think it's possible. I don't think it's easy, but I do think it's possible. You mentioned the health stuff, right? Right. And in your book, you say the price of being likable was an unexpected operation. Yes. Yes.

40:57What happened?

40:58Fearne Cotton: So I mean, I wouldn't say it's sort of completely exclusively correlates to my need to be liked. But I think because I'd become at times actually a martyr, you know, I'd be the person that would just go, you know, my motto almost became, I'll just fucking do it. Like, don't you, don't anyone do anything. I'll do everything. and you better then say, how do you do it all at the end? You know, I became that person, which is horrible. I didn't want to be that person. But I became, I just sort of like was constantly thinking I should be excelling in every area and doing everything for everybody in my personal life, working life, friendship group, everything.

41:38And I think some of the time stress causes physical outcome.

41:44Fearne Cotton: I mean, some doctors say, you know, I think Rangan Chatterjee's got stats in one of his books about sort of 95 % of physical ailments are caused by stress. That's a big percentage. And I was stressed a lot of the time. And I've been through some pretty horrible shit. And I'd had this little lump on my face for maybe two years. And I used to sort of sit there and fiddle with it when I was like reading to the kids at night. It was like a little kind of fidgety thing. and then at the end of um or the maybe the middle of 2020 what year are we in now 2030 yeah 2020 2010 I think 2010 yeah I have no idea but in about 2024 at some point I was like god I think this is this is getting bigger like this is one of those things that maybe I should go and check out and you know you go to the doctor thinking I'm wasting everyone's time this is so embarrassing.

42:36Fearne Cotton: He's got more important things to be doing with his time. And I had this scan, the woman very, very casually kind of went, yep, you've got a tumor on your parotid gland, which is your saliva gland. And I was like, what? Weird. And I kind of wasn't terrified, but I thought this was like a bit of a wake up call. It was quite immediate that I thought that this was like a bit of a wake up call. And then luckily I had a biopsy on it and it was benign. so it was just a case of removing it but I knew I had to sort of change things and not get to that point of absolute burnout constantly because who's that did that who's that who's that helping no one we feel oh we're working so hard so yes we're going to that point because then everyone can see that we're working hard and I feel like I'm working hard and I deserve what I'm getting I deserve it because I'm working that hard.

43:29Fearne Cotton: That was a big thing for me. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Like I don't deserve these opportunities or the life I'm living. I need to push myself to the point of breaking point to believe that I deserve it. You know, in your, one of your chapters in your book is, will you like me if I end things here? Ending things in general is like such a powerful thing, whether, whatever that is. And you've kind of been, I think, especially with your career, you've been quite good at saying, I'm going to change this now. I'm going to move on. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. That is really powerful because we know so many people who are stuck in relationships, stuck in jobs, stuck in friendships, whatever it is.

44:08And they don't change it because the fear of not being liked, the fear of what if, the unknown, right? So what advice would you give to those people?

44:17Fearne Cotton: I just think life is so short and it's such a banal cliche, but I stand by it. And I'm not the sort of person that's good at routine or doing the same thing on repeat. I get bored. My attention span is not big. And also, I'm desperate to keep learning and growing and finding new parts of myself, I guess. You know, I didn't know I was capable of any of the stuff I've done in the last 10 years. And that, to me, is exciting. I think I need a level of excitement. And when I've done a job for a long time, so whether it's Radio One for 10 years or Celebrity Juice for 10 years, I'm completely grateful for both of those opportunities.

45:03Fearne Cotton: And that is not to be diluted at all. Yet, I think they naturally for me reached an expiration date where I felt like I needed to be tested more and to be challenged. And also it's really important to make way for new people. You know, I was so happy that Clara Ampho took over my Radio 1 show as I left. She's an immense talent. She's a brilliant interviewer, amazing music knowledge. And you've got to keep moving to make way for other people to give those jobs a try. So I think it's, I believe it's important to keep moving and changing and growing and collaborating. That's been a big, big part of my job in the last 10 years that I don't suppose I'd thought about before.

45:45So I just think I want to keep things exciting and keep growing.

45:50Fearne Cotton: And I want to look to the future thinking, who knows what's going to happen. And it's okay at times to be selfish and to say, you know, I'm not going to do that anymore. I don't want to do that. That's okay, I feel right. Yeah, I think it's all a balancing act. I think especially when you've got kids, you've got to look at everything like, can I pay the bills if it's work-wise or how will this decision impact the people around me? But I think when you know enough's enough and you're not feeling great, I think you know, and that whisper gets louder and louder. I think that's when you know you've got to jump.

46:20And for whatever reason, I've been pretty good in my work life going,

46:27Fearne Cotton: I'm going to jump into like nothingness, into the void. I'm just going to see what happens and hopes for the best with, you know, the kind of backup plan always of, if it all goes wrong, I'll open a cat sanctuary or something and probably be happier. I'm not even joking. Do you think you'll ever do live TV again? I really don't know. I just, I mean, I really don't know. I thought about it so much. And at the end of last year, I actually said to my manager, I think I'd like to do telly again. I think I might want to, I think I might want to sort of start looking into it again. And then I got into the new year and I was like, no, I think that was my ego talking.

47:06Fearne Cotton: I think that was my ego going, you failed at telly you need to try again I don't know if I do have any desire but why do you think you failed at tv you didn't fail at tv a part of me believes I did a part of me believes I did a part of me believes that if I hadn't I don't know I'm not even sure I think there was a sort of a string of jobs that I didn't get probably in my late 20s early 30s that were slightly crushing where I thought that's when I started to question there must be something wrong about me. Which ones were those? Go on, give it to me. I can't even remember which shows they were but they were opportunities that either I'd been up for or I didn't get or things that I wasn't asked to come back for another series of TV shows.

47:55Fearne Cotton: And that can be quite crushing. And I think it would be weird to not take it personally. Because then you question yourself. You think, is it me? Am I good enough? Am I boring? Am I not fun? Yes, all of those questions. I think at that point in my career, I thought, am I really weird? And no one has told me. Am I a bit odd? And people are not brave enough to say, you're just a bit weird. That was my big insecurity. I still sometimes have it now, but I sort of don't care if I'm a bit weird. I'm like, whatever. I'm just being me. But I think I very much worried about it back then. do I want to put myself back in that position where I am so easily sacked you know I've been sacked a bunch of times do I want that again I can't be sacked from happy place which is really handy do I want to be put in that position where I can be sacked I don't know if I do are you proud of yourself um sometimes sometimes I actually said to my mate Donna who's a really good friend of mine and a bit of a mentor as well actually and on uh I think it was Tuesday this week I had a radio show to pre-record and then I did five podcasts back to back which I'd never normally do five five is absurd three is the max three is the max three is the max and then I got home and Rex needed help with this debate speech that he's writing and honey wanted to paint a shoebox for something and I kind of down tools and went straight into it and made dinner and we did stories and I got to the end of the day and I'd sort of cope with all of it pretty well which I don't always you know some days I'm terrible parent or I'd fuck up at work but that day I sort of did it all.

49:30Fearne Cotton: And I got to the end of the day and I spoke to Donna and I said, I think I'm proud of myself today. And I would never normally say that. And it's not about what I've achieved ever. It's about have I coped? How have I coped? Because I've got the propensity to have a bit of a tantrum and be a bit of a child if things are going badly. So, you know, if the kids are not listening or whatever, I can just be like, oh, just do what you want then. And I walk off like a kid and I'm like, Like, what am I doing? That is mad. I've just said to them, do what you want then. Like, I'm seven. Like, what am I doing?

50:04Fearne Cotton: Be an adult. So I was really proud of myself. I did a whole day of like adulting. Yeah. I mean, I should be at this age. And you should be so proud of your new book. I am. Do you know what? I am proud of it because it's the most honest thing I've ever written. Without a doubt, it's the most honest words I've put to paper. And hopefully in 10 years, I'll look back and think, God, that wasn't honest. And I'll be even more honest. Yeah, I hope so. and thank you oh thank you like people off camera and off everything you are just such a kind friend you are really and we know each other well but not like family and things like that but you're the first person to sort of reach out ask how Sophie is going to practice ask how I am all the time you're just truly well because I think you're fucking brilliant and I love what you're doing and your your whole business brain just massively inspires me.

51:00Fearne Cotton: I'm totally in awe of what you've created. And I just love having our dinners. We need to do a new one when it's the right time. I'm not going to put any pressure on you at the moment, but I love our dinners. I love them. We're going to leave a link to your new book, Likeable, How I Broke Free from the Need to Please. It's going to be Go and Get It. You're just incredible in every single way. Listen to all your podcasts. We're going to leave links down below as well. Thank you. Before we finish, we'd like to finish with eight quick questions. You ready? Oh, Christ. Go on then. What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers?

51:26you up?

51:28Fearne Cotton: Um, fuck it. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? Oh, um, I probably think even you saying today that I'm a good interviewer, that means more than anything. So good. What scares you most about yourself? Oh, my, uh, impatience. Cause I can be, uh, very urgent about things and it's not always good. When was the last time you cried? Um, I just, are you a island have you seen it don't you worry i've been banging that timkey drum i have not wept like that i was like breathlessly sobbing i laughed my head off and cried in equal measures it is genius uh what's something you can't let go of uh do you want to hear something so tragic can't wait i can't believe i'm saying this but i've had a teddy bear since i was 14 i got given it after one of my first auditions by my mum and I am not letting that go.

52:28Fearne Cotton: I still sleep. So this is how I sleep, right? On my side. Yeah. Pillow between my legs. Nice. Because that's just something in pregnancy that you do and then you can't get out of it. Sophie now does it. Pillow here, bear here, eye mask on, earplugs in, duvet on. I'm literally cocooned and sort of muffled with fabric. It's outrageous, but that bear's going nowhere. What's your guilty pleasure? Probably a midday bath or Or I'm very generous with my chocolate indulgence. I love chocolate. So I'm not even guilty about it. I just eat a lot of it. What turns you off? Superiority and bad shoes. Nice.

53:08That's a good one. What turns you on?

53:15Fearne Cotton: Genuine support and happiness for other people's success and achievement in life. I just think there is nothing better than knowing that a friend or a person in your life genuinely is cheering you on. I love that. That is the greatest. What do you like most about yourself? I think my drive, which is actually 100 % from my parents who are incredibly hardworking people. So I think my drive has enabled me to fill in the gaps where skill hasn't been present. Bonus question. When you were younger, who was your celebrity crush and who is it now? It was most definitely Taylor Hansen growing up. Nice.

53:55Fearne Cotton: Because he sort of looked like a girl, and I thought, you know, like, not scary, looks like a girl. I was very in love with him. Now? And I've interviewed them since, and it's still like, oh, oh my God. Yeah. Now, I sort of feel like I'm so out of popular culture. Like, who's hot? Who's not 20? Do you know what I mean? Like, who's my age? Who's famous and hot? I don't know who they are. I feel like I'm out. I can't fancy Timothee Chalamet I can be his fucking mum like I don't know who's hot anymore I don't know who these who are you where are you Harry Styles too young like these people are too young for me I can be their mum it's like Benson Boone too fucking young I cannot fancy these people I don't know who I'm meant to fancy so you have to fancy like Jamie Oliver I mean let's go I don't know I just need to I need to do some research within that area to find who these people are because I've lost touch with who's out there Because, yeah, exactly.

54:51It's hard. Fern, thank you.

54:53Fearne Cotton: Thank you. You're the greatest. You are. You're great company, Jamie. Thank you very much. You really are.

55:05Thank you.