GREATEST COMPANY OF 2025

0:01Hello everyone, my name is Jamie Lang, and this is Great Company.

0:09Well hello there, it's producer Jemima back, PJ's back and we've got a little bit of a different episode for you today because it's the end of the year and you might be aware, you might not be aware but Mr Jamie Lang who is our formidable host of Great Company is a little bit busy because He's having a baby He's having a baby and who the hell is that you might be wondering that is my fellow producer Helen hello I think we sound the same we do sound the same apart from I'm slightly more northern than you potentially yeah but trust me there are two of us Helen's been working with me on Great Company for the last six months in the shadows in the shadows that makes it sound so weird in the shadows letting me take all the glory but Helen is such a powerhouse and has been helping us build up the show and we wanted to introduce you to one of our amazing team members, which is producer Helen.

1:07Hello, here I am. How have you found working with Jamie, coming on and working on the Great Company team? It's been so much fun. I've enjoyed every single second of it. And I just can't get over how many really great guests will come on and share some really intimate moments of their lives. And it's just such a privilege to be part of that. What's an episode that you've produced and have really felt that? on oh I think Professor Green that was a big one I loved him he came in and his whole energy was just like so beautiful and I just thought they had such an interesting conversation and then so many people afterwards came and told me about it and said how much they enjoyed it and that for me is just the big thing yeah that was I think that was a really special episode because like in the office we think a lot about our listeners and we have you know we do like demographics and stuff and we have ideas of what our listeners are but it's so amazing when people come up to you and they say like I or they message you and they say really loved that episode and for that one in particular there were a lot of people where I was like oh it's like you know like we have an idea of the age range of the like our most common listeners yeah but like people from all ages all walks of life I feel like that episode really touched and was really special yeah 100 % What would you say?

2:25What's been your favourite of the year? So I feel like we've tried a lot of different things this year. So one really standout was having Reardon Maynard. Yes, yes. He'd been to prison for fraud in the States, I think. It was something taxi, something to do with tax. Go and listen to it for the full details. But he was so charismatic, but we didn't really know. It was one of those ones where we really asked you guys to trust us with this episode because he wasn't like a big famous name and he was so brilliant that we actually invited him in for a part two so we've never done a part two before so that was really special jessie jay oh jessie jay incredible was amazing so jessie came onto the show and we had a whole recording and she revealed in the recording that she'd recently been diagnosed with breast cancer and so we were really careful with that edit and then after the recording i sent the edit for her to listen to because it's her news and we wanted to make sure she was happy with it and her team came back and they were like we want to re-record it and I was like okay I've got a whole production schedule but we it was really important for us that you know like it's her news we have to we have to like follow her lead with this and so she came back and then we had to piece these two parts together and I think it felt such an honor that she wanted to come and share that story with us and I think it's a really powerful episode and that was a that was another first so I've never done that type of thing and like trying to work out how to fit those all together so that was really special um when Jamie's dad came on when Jamie did his run yeah I also like Kat Burns I she was at the beginning of the year but like she's just the whole I anytime we ever like repost clips of Kat um oh actually there's going to be a little of Kat coming up in today's show I just think she's she just cracks me up I think she's so brilliant oh yeah she's great I remember listening to that before I started working on Great Company and I just thought she's she's something special yeah I was furiously nodding throughout her whole interview also Spencer Matthews yes that was I like I I watched Made in Chelsea from from the beginning so didn't we all let's be honest but it felt very real and so often in interview show we're talking about things that have happened in the past and like tell me about that experience and how did you overcome it whereas that was like we were watching them overcome something it was like it was a it was an interesting atmosphere oh yeah math like you could feel the tension in the room which was really remarkable and then it comes across in the edit as well it's just yeah yeah and then they like wiggled for and then it kind of it ended and it was oh it was it It was really fascinating, if you're interested in humans, just like humans, like watching them do it and like for Jamie to share that.

5:18And also I just felt like really proud of Jamie for he did this run earlier in the year and he spoke so much about like sharing your vulnerabilities. And it's one thing to talk about to realise that's a really important thing to do. It's a really different thing to like be able to consistently do that. Yeah. And not go if your whole life you've like not shared vulnerabilities. You're not going to just suddenly like flick a switch and be able to just be doing that all the time. And like I struggle with that. I think we all do. I was going to say we absolutely all do. And there's certain people that you learn to be vulnerable with, but it still takes a long time.

5:50And like for Jamie to share that on the show with Spencer and like also throughout the whole year with his guests. The reason Jamie is so wonderful is that he he opens people up and he disarms them and he charms them. And he is so, yeah, he shares so much. And I think he's a real, he's a real winner as are, Jamie. Oh, yeah. He's special. He's really special. Shall we see the little lad in action? Yeah. Shall we have a look back up? So we've gone through and we've picked some of our favourite moments of the year. And if this makes, if this piques your interest and you're like, oh, that sounds like a great interview, go back and listen to it.

6:24We've got an amazing archive of guests. Oh, it's honestly unmatched, guys. You need to go back and listen if you haven't already. So without further ado, let's get into it.

6:43I get nervous for any sort of social interaction outside of singing. So if I'm on stage, I'm like fine. But I'll be thinking about, oh my God, who's going to be in my dressing room after the show that I'm going to have to speak to that I don't know that I'm going to have to do some small talk with, but I don't want to do. But hang on a second. Podcasting is just small talk. No, it's not. You can get deep. Okay. You can find a way to get deep. So that's so interesting. Yeah, I'm just not. I'm an ADHD autistic girl. I need deep conversation. I'm like that. Do you have ADHD? I have ADHD, yeah, but I didn't really relate it to that.

7:25Yeah, I can't do the small talk. that's why I struggle in like events because most of the time everyone's sort of looking through each other not really having actual conversations it's just sort of like are you right and then just you can't really get to the nitty-gritty of anything so I end up just not really saying anything because I'm like well there's no point me opening my mouth and saying anything because nobody's trying to have a proper conversation here but explain that to me deeper because what you feel the lack of connection you feel that that small talk isn't where you're going to connect or more you with small talk in those social situations you don't know you freeze almost you don't really know what to say i have absolutely no idea what to say after hey how are you i just sort of go come on let's do let's try it together ready so we'd pretend we're at an event here we can do some role play okay all right then so i'm by the way and i'm your therapist All right, all right.

8:20This is my idea of hell on earth. Okay, we're going to try it, right? Because the way to get through things is exposing yourself. All right, then. Okay, here we go, Rory. I'm sweating. That's because you're really nervous. Oh, my God. Okay, I'm ready. All right, let's go. I'm ready. I meant to make our guests really comfortable, and what I've done is just pushed you further, more uncomfortable. By the way, I'm just going to make you more uncomfortable. Okay, I can do it. I can do it. I'm literally 24. I need to know how to speak. okay ready hey are you cat burns i am yeah

9:01hello

9:04hey so you i love your music i love what you do um do you like what you do yeah yeah it was good there we go that wasn't good at all that was quite good i learned though okay yeah i had a friend and she said if you ever meet somebody and they tell you they like your music just have a little script and just say oh thank you what's your name said person will tell me their name i'll instantly forget because i cannot remember someone's name after about after it's like the fifth time i'll remember your name yeah so i usually go thank you so much what's your name have a nice day in that order that's what if they say other things that fall out of that script for me then i'll just sort of go okay but then amazing but then fine one of us said to you said hey i said i'm jamie you're okay it's okay you do music i love that uh what do you think the meaning of life is oh that's fab but see that is mad that to me is absolutely fabulous i love it okay so so this is brilliant so the small talk hey how are you sort of which most individuals I suppose that meaningless conversation right which is like fluff that's quite tricky but actually if I was to say to you what's the meaning of life or do you believe in God or yeah um what is really love you'd be straight in there yeah that to me is just like oh we're about to have a really beautiful conversation which is why I think people mistake um a lot of neurodivergent people always get told that they're flirting when really I'm just looking at you and asking you a deeper question and care about what you're saying to me rather than just being like oh I actually want to know or usually like I'll ask a really deep question to someone make them contemplate their whole existence and then just frolic away into the distance.

10:56Kat you've just honestly opened up a whole light for me about my life. That's what I do. No but I'm not even kidding you this is exactly what I'm like so it just a little by the way this podcast you can interview me this is about me now so i uh growing up uh hectic kid right all those different things got sort of diagnosed in a way with adhd kind of forgot it recently got re-diagnosed because i wanted to understand it a little bit more what do you mean you got re-diagnosed well i went to i when i was younger i went to a doctor who sort of said yes you have okay hd but it wasn't a thorough check recently i went ahead of thorough check okay and the sort of idea i got back was you're off the scale type thing and so yeah and i was like okay brilliant what do i do with that they offered medication i said i don't need i don't want to take medication because i've been 36 years without it but what you're saying is that is so interesting because i love going deep with people it does something to my body to my heart to my endorphins to something i don't know what it is and you're saying exactly the same thing but we're saying that's an adhd thing It is.

12:03I think it's just like a desire to have, like, I just, I really, as much as people scare me, I do also love them and I want to connect with people. And even if I am never going to see that person again, I would love for every interaction I have with someone to be meaningful or not have the interaction really at all. I just find it hard I don't like the fluff which is why my mum will always be like you're really nosy like you'll just I'll meet someone new and I'll come home and I'll be like yeah so they told me this this this this this and all their childhood trauma and she'll be like how did you find that out and I'm like I just asked because I wanted to know I love that thank you no it's amazing and I think it's so important I love the fact that you want to connect with people the reason I started this podcast is because it was about connection yeah and I feel like in a world where we're losing that connection because of devices and social media and stuff like that.

12:54It was about reconnecting in that space. Yeah, because you never know what you're going to end up speaking about.

13:07So I get to the prison and the other thing is that I'm an avid smoker. My whole life I've smoked. And so I have my last cigarette and I haven't smoked since. And that's one of the greatest gifts the IRS gave me. but I put it out feeling strangely okay quite interested yeah I don't know where I was mentally but I was I was straight I was I was all right and then I go in to the prison through the reception through the metal detector strip naked get washed down like the films just like the films with the hose with the hose yeah and then um they put the uh jumpsuit on you it's all just like the movies and then they put you in a holding cell and you can be in the whole i was in the holding cell for about three hours and that was the worst i got i mean that was when i i was hyperventilating Then I suddenly realized I was in prison.

14:14That was the first time. Before that, I don't know where I was, frankly. No, you're too optimistic to even comprehend it. Yeah, I don't know what was going on in my brain. But that was, I suddenly realized I wasn't coming out for a long time. This guy comes up to me and I'm scared. I don't know. Do you talk to people? Don't you talk to people? I don't know anything. I've got no etiquette. I don't know what the rules are. So this guy comes up to me and he goes, who do you run with? I said, I haven't been running yet. He said, no, no, no, no. He said, what car are you in? I said, what? He said, what?

14:51Oh, what group are you? What group are you with? I said, I haven't decided yet. I'm going to have a look around, see which group. I genuinely said that. He's looking at me like I'm fucking mental. I mean, he's like, can't compute. Anyway, it transpires that what he wants to know is which whether i'm with the white supremacists or whether i'm with the um the crips or the bloods or the paisans or the i mean what they have all these gangs i mean there's just gang after that's how it runs the whole system runs on gangs i said i said i haven't got a clue i said i don't want to be in a gang he said you I've got an option.

15:31You've got to be in a gang. I'm going to start my own. So I actually quite successfully in that prison avoided being in a gang. So you didn't go into a gang? No, because, well, I was sort of part of this thing called the others. Which is basically, which was really nice. It was all of the others who weren't particularly well represented. so I was in the minority for once in my life what was your handshake did you have a secret no there was no secret handshake but they we had little meetings we did they were and they they they were lovely I must say I must say one of the things about prison that's quite interesting is how well organized it is really at an inmate level not not not at an operational level actually I think the American prisons are run very well, I think, because it's a massive organization, as you can imagine.

16:34American prisons are also privately owned. Yeah. So all the inmates are the customers. That's true. That's true. Which is - Some are privately owned, some are state. Sorry, some are federally owned. Okay. But you're right. Which seems counterproductive. It's odd. The private ones are odd, because it's profit. It's for profit. So more people you have in prison, the more profit you're making. Unfortunately, that is, they don't want you to leave. I can tell you that they absolutely don't want and if you leave they want you to come back did you ever have to fight anyone in prison no never I got into a real pickle with a couple of guys uh one of the problems I've got is I'm I have no tolerance especially for rudeness I mean disrespect and rudeness forget it i mean you'd think that a little chap like me who hasn't had a fight since he was at school would keep his mouth shut but i can't keep my mouth shake so these there was this guy sitting on a bunk sort of three or four bunks from me all day he would go on and on about his life you know he's just shouting and talking loudly and making everyone listen to his business all day all day i'm not joking all day so a few days went by and i i think it was a sunday or something and i went up to her i said look you're gonna have to shut the fuck up because you're driving me insane and also no one in this place wants to know your business we don't want to know what's going you keep you have your conversation with your whoever you're having the conversation i'll have my conversation with whoever i'm we don't need to hear about your life anyway i went awful i completely fucking lost it and then i walked off and then i was doing at the time they were on lockdown and i was in a dormitory environment and the only way you could get exercise was to walk around i mean mindless walk around the beds so i then i continue to walk around the beds anyway this guy with his mate and these guys are massive.

18:50They come up to me, push, not physically, but they move me by moving themselves into a corner. And they said, no one tells us what to do in our prison. And I said, oh, I'm terribly sorry. I'm new. I don't know any of the rules. All I know is that you look like much you look much too intelligent to think that it's acceptable to be shouting around if all 140 of us shout all day anyway i went on calmed them down but they but they they were really going to beat the shit out of me and the the the one that i challenged said at the end you know i'm here for murder don't you i can't control my temper i said i said actually i didn't know i didn't know that but it's good to know thanks and then off they went and we it calmed down that was my most and then there were other instances where my gang had you know you would not mine the one that i was the other in no no this is later oh because you're in a new gang oh i had to go with into the whites when you go into a proper place you have to go into your race really yeah yeah it's all very race wait hang on so you then get moved this in pennsylvania no so then i'm i'm in california so in california i had experienced this terrible despair yeah i mean proper like depression yeah extraordinary and i've never had that before so it was quite i mean in retrospect quite valuable.

20:30And then... Can I ask you just a really awful question before you? Do lots of people take their own life in prison? Yeah. All the time. All the time. Yeah. Because it's just hopelessness. Yeah, it's not uncommon at all. Yeah, I mean, and you can sort of see them going. You can't do much about it. You become very mercenary. You don't really... Nothing really phases you. Really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I mean, I had someone beaten to death in front of me with a lock in a sock. Yeah. I mean, it's like, you can't believe it. It's like, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's surreal. I can't even, I can't even process that I was in there.

21:15Yeah, so you become very... And you can't do anything. No, you mustn't do anything. You absolutely mustn't. Why? Well, because it conflicts with lots of rules. they have all sorts of rules about um fighting and which frankly all make sense explain that to me you basically you're organized into gangs of they call them cars people that you ride with that's why they call it a car so it's like school when you get put into houses basically yeah it's very similar and it organizes itself it's a bit like lord of the flies it it basically organizes itself with the toughest at the top and the weakest at the bottom.

21:59That's how it works. Is it done on toughest? Yeah, or I suppose most influential. You're in the gangs. Then there's two options. If I wanted to fight you, I can have a fight with you one-to-one. But if anyone else gets involved, like if one of your mates from your gang helps you, then it becomes a gang, a group affair. So there's quite a lot of one-off fights. There's not many all-in fights. Wow, so there are rules. Yeah, loads of rules. You can't believe how many rules. I mean, and that's how it runs because the guards... It is quite smartly done. It's very, very good, yeah. And that's one of the things when you get to know it that makes it doable because the unknowns gently disappear and you start to feel a bit more in control.

22:57I feel like for the biggest blessings that I've had in my life that are massive, I have to have balance. Like there has to be balance in my life. Explain that to me. Oh no, I really want to tell you, but I don't know if I can. Why? Because it's a really big thing that I haven't told anyone and it's very personal, but I just don't know. This is the moment I'm going to share it. I may cry. I probably won't. Don't worry. If you cry, that'll send me the edge as well. So I'll be with you. So I was diagnosed with early breast cancer seven weeks ago. Right? And I haven't told anyone. Buddy, I'm so sorry.

23:32Okay, so Jessie, we recorded an episode. Yes, we did. Before. and you're now back again to record another episode. I just love it so much. I know, man. That's what I'm hoping, that you just really enjoy it. I enjoyed it so much that I pretended I didn't like the last one so I could do it again. Why didn't you like the last one? No, it wasn't that I didn't like it. Just a lot of the things that we spoke about, especially with the breast cancer, it just changed that my diagnosis was a little different and I just knew how important that conversation was. I realised that the journey wasn't there yet.

24:06Yeah, I get that. I owed it to myself just to kind of act on my instincts and go, I think I should do that again when I'm a bit further down the line. So how are you feeling? 10 out of 10. No, I'm okay. Yeah, I'm good. But I feel like you'll always say you're okay, which is fine. No, no. I mean, I had my days. Like yesterday I sobbed because I miss my boy. My boy is, I can't be a mum like I want to be a mum. And I feel robbed. I feel like that's the only biggest negative thing. I'll start with the worst thing as I feel like cancer's robbed me of memories with my boy. and anyone that has a toddler knows that they change so much in that time and you blink and he's like chatting you say you feel like a little bit anxious about what you were saying last time which I kind of understand um you came on and you were in this headspace and you were kind of just being diagnosed with yeah I think I had so I was diagnosed on the 31st of March yes it was around that time and when no it was May it was like eight weeks later that I came here right was it really Yeah.

25:05So it was almost two months later. And it felt like it was the first time you told like a stranger. It was the first time I told anybody in the world, like other than friends and family, that it would have been a public knowledge thing. Was that scary? No, it was really nice. And I could hear it that I was just, I just the adrenaline running through my body. But I think also just because I was, I had, if I'm honest, how do I word this? whenever you're kind of diagnosed with something or you go through something as someone that's in the public eye, people often give you kind of a bit of a, like a flag to wave at the front of the queue to like represent everybody behind you.

25:47And I felt that I was like in autopilot doing that with the breast cancer when I actually just wanted to be someone that was in the back of the line, watching someone else that had already kind of gone through it, that had that knowledge and understanding to do that for me and I think that the way I was talking about it when I was listening was if was already as if I'd gone through it and I hadn't and I almost wanted to let myself be a bit more scared and sad how do you articulate that to family because I just you know when something like that happens and you get diagnosed with something I think your immediate thing which I noticed when you said to me first is to go straight to humor because you want to you want to even now yeah even now you just let's make it funny I don't want people to fast let's go to humor yeah I mean I I think humour is always, always my thing.

26:29It's not, I don't think I use it as a defence mechanism. I just think it's my personality. It doesn't mean that some days aren't awful. Yeah. You know, and I don't let the closest people into me. That sounded good. The closest people realise what you're going through. Yeah, go for it. My mum knows, like my boyfriend knows, like some of my best friends know. The whole world doesn't need to see that all the time. Yeah, but also, Jessie, I'm going to say, because like, I don't know why, after the last time we spoke, I feel like a real, this sounds so cheesy, but I feel like a real connection to you and I don't know why I'm not kidding I don't know why I love that I swear to god I don't know why and this is going to sound cheesy but you you don't have to be brave like I just start crying but you you don't have to be and I think you've been you've got diagnosed with cancer you then when you spoke about it with me right you were being like very joking like oh there's not which is I get that that's immediate thing that I would do and I understand that and then you've gone through this whole process right now of you know and we're going to talk about what you've been through but you're sort of in this moment now and I still feel like you're like no we just got to keep moving going on and you know what I think is I feel like I had had two months to process it so when I spoke about it with you yeah I had cried and I had been scared and I was like I'm gonna die there was moments where I was like this is gonna go left and I'm gonna die and I had those moments and I think anyone that gets diagnosed with cancer at any level or anything when you're in the unknown at that point I didn't know if I was going to have to have extensive treatment what it was going to be so I think when I listened back to it I almost felt guilty that I was robbing people like my fans my friends my family time to understand because I knew that that was going to come out very closely to me talking about it and it wasn't going to give much of a window for people to process it um it was actually something my PR said to me that sounds so cliche but you know he's doing his job where he just said like people really care about you Jess and this is going to hurt a lot of people and that isn't for you to manage but I just felt like the way I was talking about it because I had known about it for eight weeks and I was still going through the tests and like I still had more results that came in after we talked last time that changed things that we talked about that I didn't give them the chance to process it does that make sense I think maybe that was one of the things that I was talking about with humor already because I'd gone through the sad and the like but also is that what happens you do when I just don't talk about the last two months so the last time we met you've been diagnosed you then since then you've had surgery so when I saw you I can't even remember where I was at I think I was in the I was I was in the process so the last test that I had was a genetic testing so basically what does that mean so i found a lump i went and got checked they said we can feel and see the lump but the on the ultrasound it looks fine so that that that was you know so they said we'll send you for a mammogram or do you want to get a biopsy and i said well and what's a mammogram so a mammogram is where they basically squash your boob into a machine yeah and basically i think it's like an i don't want to say it's an x-ray but it's like they just They do a picture of it.

29:41So from the side, I couldn't even fit my boob in the screen. It was literally like, it was like shutting a, like a yogurt covered apricot into her door. And I was like, she was like, can you go in anymore? I was like, I've got nothing left. There's no boob left. And I was, me and the nurse were crying, laughing. A yogurt covered apricot. It was like, she was like, I was literally holding onto the machine. Like, you all right, babes? You good? Yeah. literally she's like can you go in anymore and i was like there's nothing there and she was and i was and i was laughing so much she was like try and stay still and what's going through your mind at that time well this you're laughing but let me just go back to what i was saying so i don't go off on a tangent and do what i always do so i had the ultrasound that was clear and then luckily they sent me for a biopsy first because the mammogram came back clear so if i'd have had that second i don't know what would have happened like whether i would have just not had any further a treatment and that would have been it and then it would have got bad wow really bad yeah that can happen well yeah of course and I'm lucky that I I'm very aware that I'm very lucky that I can have private health care so wow I didn't even know that was yeah so usually the the usual course is ultrasound mammogram and then anything yeah so because I have young-ish breast tissue it looked healthy this is what they've told me this isn't me got it yeah you know um so because of my symptoms So I had like a really achy arm.

31:09My arm felt like it was made of lead. And I had, I'd always have pins and needles every morning. Like when I woke up, I couldn't feel my hand every day. And how long was that for, can I say? About five months. And you just didn't go and go and check? No. You just would just wake up every day? I just thought, I don't know, because I was working out. So I was like, maybe I'm just getting blinched. And I just thought I was like, it was just the workouts. And I felt healthy. I was like, I was good. So I didn't think of anything of it. I was just kind of like, maybe it's my muscles. I know silly and I was busy I was preparing I just moved back from America I was moving house I've got a toddler like you're just you're just doing life you know life and so because of that they said let's do a biopsy and just do it and they were like the only appointment we've got is the 28th of March and it was the morning after my birthday and I was like let's do it big big girl pants I'm 37 let's be brave um and so I randomly blogged it so I've I filmed myself go into the appointment, just go in, found a lump.

32:05And so I filmed the biopsy and like my boyfriend was there and I did that. And she said, I'm going to phone you on Monday if it's not good news. Or I would like to tell you. And I was like, okay, fine. This was on, I think it was a Friday, I think. And then my boyfriend and my son actually went to Denmark for a little trip for a week. And I was at home. Are you spending the weekend nervous? What are you feeling all weekend? No, no, no. No, I was just cracking on with things on my to-do list. Wow, Jessica. I don't worry about things that haven't happened. There's no point. I think that would consume me all weekend.

32:38No, there's no point. Because until you get told, you're just wasting energy. And I was talking to the BAFTAs. I was busy. I was doing meetings. I was everywhere. I was sitting with Spotify and Apple. And we were preparing for a launch. No one even knew this was happening. I hadn't even told any of my team at this point that I went to get a biopsy. I was just like it's going to be fine it's they literally was said to me it's going to be fine it's a cyst it won't be anything it doesn't look bad and so she I literally was come off a call with the BAFTAs talking about my performance and she texted me saying can you zoom really quick so I'm thinking oh it's going to be nothing because it's a zoom but it was Monday so I was like and it was six o 'clock so I was like okay so I was like jumped on the call and um and she was like are you sitting down and I literally went ah and I was like yeah and she went I'm really sorry but it's all come back as like high-grade cancer cells and I just burst into tears um you know that was my normal that that was a healthy reaction so those moments it's not like I'm like you're making a joke you know I mean I'm not I reacted like anyone else would and I just burst into tears And I think because I was like convinced it wasn't going to be anything and everyone had told me it wasn't.

33:58Like even my friends that I told I'd had a biopsy done were like, oh, it'll be nothing. Like my friend had that last month and it was nothing. So I was like, yeah, yeah. Kind of poo-pooed that I was like thinking it could be something. And so obviously they kind of tell you the result and then they'll be like, we'll be in touch. That's when you're just like, right, so what happens next? And they reach out. And then I had an MRI. and that was what the what was the unclostrophobic and and with a breast one you have to lay on your front with your like boobs in a little bucket I mean mine was a little bucket and then they inject you with dye at the end and then they like can see everything but I mean I was in there for probably 25 30 minutes and they asked you what yeah and then they asked you what music you want but you're on your front so you're looking down to just like a plastic bottom so oh and I picked Bob Marley because that's what I gave birth to.

34:49The machine and Bob Marley. We might have talked about this last time, but those two things at the same time. Oh my, it was like, everything's gonna and I was literally just laying there going, what do I zone into? Do I zone into the machine or Bob Marley? And I just had to talk myself like off a panic attack the whole time. I know that. That was the worst. That was one of the worst bits of all of this. Oh, Jess. It was awful. And I was like, I hate MRIs. I hate them and I feel so claustrophobic and I couldn't move and I've got my arms up and they're just like and I'll take a deep breath and they'll be like try and stay still and I'm like and you're trying not to panic and you're just fighting that thing's just right there do you want us to give you something to calm you down and I was like nah that ain't a bit of me let me just ride this raw dog like I just sent me raw dog the MRI are you serious you don't you just wouldn't no nothing no I hate it any like melatonin I just don't like anything I like to feel what I'm feeling and deal with it good on you Jessie So I was laying there, did that.

35:48And then when the results of those came back, it showed that I had, uh, it was about four and a half, five centimeters of cancer and a lump at the bottom. And then I also had more here and at the top. Um, and so I then decided to get a second opinion, um, to a lot of people's advice. and I found a doctor that I really liked and then so he wanted to repeat some of the tests but also test the other cancer that had been found to make sure it was the same kind of cancer as the other one and that was when I had I had that those biopsies done the night before Ronnie's Scott that I did my industry showcase so it was that was when I was in pain um and I was just so uncomfortable and I've I had my outfit already picked out and I didn't I couldn't be bothered to change it so you could just see the plaster so I was trying not to lift my arm up um and you're just doing it yeah because I wanted to I was so excited I was you know what I and I said to the beginning it's like there's a bit of me that feels like I go through these things to write music then I also feel like the health thing might already be written and happening and the reason it happens alongside me putting out music is so that it brings me enough joy to do the sad thing does that make sense do you know how much i love my job like this isn't like a oh i'm going on a primor on i'm doing it i love it i love it i love connecting with people i love singing and i love making music i love writing songs i love making people feel stuff like so for me it was like that got me through so then after the mri i had the mammogram which was just hysterical me and the nurse just cracking up laughing why because because of the me not yeah yeah um and what are you feeling mentally that what are you feeling at this point you're just cracking on i was so busy with work that if i'm honest i didn't have a lot of time to process it and i know that there was like do you think that's a good thing maybe good and bad which is one of the reasons i wanted to tell the world yeah but i didn't know when and i kept recording the video and then not having time to like edit it and put it out and then i was i don't want to edit it but then it was like how do i make this like a 30 second video to explain it and then i kept making jokes or i burst into tears and I literally had like 16 different videos of different days where I was like I've got five minutes I'm in between promo I just want to let you guys know that this has happened and then I was talking like I was in an interview because I was doing interviews and it was just you can't feel you it was so disconnected and I was just like okay let me just wait until this happens organically can I ask you a question on that as well because um because you I would say you're a bit like all of us you're a workaholic for sure you you love what you do like you enjoy it so much that when when you have when you're in this moment you're like no this i i can't i have to keep doing this but also when you've worked so hard to get to that point like this wasn't like a two two week let's put out a song and like this was like years in the making of like even just rebuilding the foundations of my life yeah like my team my comfort like not my confidence like my my value in like and just finding the joy like these songs were five years old so i'd gone through like left my label and gone for the legal stuff.

38:54And I was like, I'm not going to just put this aside and sit at home and cry because that's what other people would do. And then when I met, when I saw you, it was right before summertime ball. Yeah. You're the mix of everything. So I was, I knew I was at some point, I was like, I almost want to do a podcast or an interview where it will force me to tell people. And I hadn't planned to come here and tell you. But if you listen to the opening of the podcast, it feels like you're literally been told to like gear me up to tell you. I knew nothing. No, I know. I knew nothing. And so then I, when I kind of, I hadn't really prepared to talk to you about it.

39:27And also we just first met, so I really didn't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was like, how do you deal with hard things in your life? And I was like, you know. But I think it was just, it was like that word vomit just comes out because you just want to say it. And it was just an open tab. And you're like so desperate to tell someone. And I think I just got to a point where I'm going to talk about it. But I wasn't there yet to talk about it like I did. And so. So it's only been eight weeks. And so since then you said you had a new, the diagnosis changed? Yeah. So it wasn't a new diagnosis. It was just that I just got more understanding of what it was.

40:01So there was more cancer around my breast than I thought there was. And then I had to have genetic testing, which takes four and a half weeks to come back the results. So I think that's when I spoke to you. So I was in a period of time where I was waiting to see if I carried any breast cancer genes. And that would determine whether I was having a single or double mastectomy. so I always was having this one taken off and then this one I've kept um because I didn't carry any jeans so it was just the you know the gene doctor was just like it's just unlucky it's just one of those things when you when you share the diagnosis on socials you did that what was the response oh it was so nice isn't that I saw is it's amazing what was beautiful was I believe in like love and joy and happiness and people being good people and wanting to care and so the media was obviously the thing that swum around my head but I do I do think even though being diagnosed with cancer you're still going doing summertime ball and Ronnie Scott's but what other person in life I can tell you now I wish everyone that has ever been diagnosed with anything scary got to experience what I did at summertime ball because that was nothing to do with me being Jessie J that was It's just people wanting to give me a hug.

41:14Oh man, that's like, you know what I'm saying? Like when I watch that back, it makes me cry every time. When I say it, cause you can see it. I mean, I saw me being little Jessica. That wasn't Jessie J. When I said, this is my last show before I go and beat breast cancer. And I pull this face and I go like this. Cause I'm, I haven't said it out loud. I hadn't said that out loud to like 80 ,000 people. And everyone just erupted with joy and love. And I just was like, I'm going to sing this next song now. like I just because I knew I'd just lose it but that feeling that that euphoria that like energy like everyone that was there in that space my team my family my friends strangers young old people holding up posters saying like we love you you're gonna beat this you've got like we've got you I've beat it three times and it was just it was it was the most yikes that's like hit me as yeah and it wasn't me being Jessie it wasn't me I wasn't getting that love because I'm Jessie J I was getting that love because people are kind to people.

42:12And I felt like when I was being put to sleep, it was that moment that I was playing in my head because it was an unimaginable amount of love that I received in that 25 minutes I was on stage. But in that moment, oh my God, it was overwhelming. And then to sing Living My Best Life, you know what I mean? And then price tag and just see everyone just loving it. And like, we're all just humans trying to get through this crazy thing called life. Yeah.

42:46Your relationship with your dad is so thick for you, right? In so many incredible ways. It's the story that I told myself about myself. And when that story goes, you've got to tell yourself a new story. And that's really hard when you're 38, as I was when he died. my dad the thing about it was that was so shocking so i didn't think he was going to die i i he was 76 annoying had that slightly kind of elder sort of tedious thing where he hated medicine and doctors and he had type 2 diabetes and out of nowhere he got pneumonia and he went in and he went into intensive care for five weeks and it was the worst five weeks of my life and at the end it looked like he was getting a bit better it was a time of omicron so he couldn't visit and And that was the thing that was so hard about it.

43:30And suddenly all of the crap for five weeks, the infections he was getting, the tubes, the pipes, his kidneys weren't working and it was all too much. Yeah. He had a catastrophic heart attack. And if I'm honest, yeah, that was three years ago last week. It's still really, really raw, you know? And, um, last Friday I went to the place in Chiswick in West London, where I first came in this, I was born in India and lived in Chiswick from the age of three to seven. And I went with my mum and we looked at his house and we talked about all the memories of being there. And it was incredible. And then I went back to Tooting, which is where my parents' house is in South London.

44:06And there's just a picture of my dad and he's smiling. And there's something about that. It kills me, man. It kills me. And my dad was, I think we'd nowadays probably medicalize it and say he was depressed for years. He was a downbeat guy, an introvert. But there's something about when someone is your dad and they're a downbeat person. and you have kind of private access to them smiling. There's something about when they smile at you. It's just so overwhelming. And yeah, I went to pieces. And if I'm honest, you know, it's a weird thing to know how blessed and how lucky you are. You know, I've won the lottery so many times in my life and all the big things I'm paid really well.

44:47I have a fantastic job and yet to feel in a bit of a funk. And I was so unprepared for grief. and I've been in such a pit of grief for such a long time. And one of the things I really want to do by talking about it is to tell other people that this is coming. Your parents are going to die, man. And it's going to be, you think it's going to be bad? It's going to be a million times worse than you think it's going to be. And you have to get ready for it. I don't think I'm prepared for that. You can't prepare for it. But the one thing you can do, which I know you've talked about a bit, is you can make sure that you minimize the regret.

45:21What do you mean by that? Well, you say the things you need to say. A couple of years ago, before my dad died, I decided to go on a little walk with my dad. And I asked him some really basic questions. Dad, are you happy with how things have turned out? Do you feel like the sacrifices you and mum made in coming to this country? He was 41, the age I am now, when he ripped himself away from everything that was familiar and beloved. Do you feel it came out? And my dad didn't say, you know what, son, I'm proud of you. And it was absolutely justified. But he kind of intimated that and i'm so glad i did that walk and there are certain places i wanted to go with him you know i've got a son called winston me and my dad were both very interested in churchill i really wanted to go to the house in kent where churchill spent most of his life with him i didn't get to do that and so if there are things that you want to do with your parents and you're lucky enough to have your parents around you've got to do those things did you say goodbye to him

46:15no and the thing that um one of the things that upsets me most is that you know you had this five weeks where yeah because it was covid and omicron and so many people who had ill relatives in that period particularly elderly relatives will know visits visiting times were like really screwed up so you had to like book it in with this there's this wonderful nurse who was like just she had like an iPad schedule and you'd get to talk to him on an iPad. And he, because he went into a coma, he never really came around. So he didn't really get to talk to him. And he moved to this other ward. And I remember saying to my son, watching some God awful TV.

46:53I remember saying to my son, by the way, granddad's getting better. And my son was on some, he was, he's a bit of a chat box and he was ranting about something. And as I said this, he just stopped and went, yes. And I tell you, it meant so much to me, man. that really meant so much to me um because in that moment i knew that he had a relationship with my dad and um yeah just sucks that after that he didn't get to get to see him and the funeral itself um even more painful than the day he died um there's a famous poem called uh elegy written in a country churchyard which i can do mostly by mostly verbatim it's all about the kind of nobility and brilliance of the poor and I can do it verbatim and I always wanted to make sure I delivered it without having to look at the notes but on the day I just went to complete pieces and in a way that was when I said goodbye when I kind of read this poem to him what is the poem I saw I'm getting like this is oh mate the poem is uh Thomas Gray and at Stoke Poges in Buckinghamshire which is in a churchyard.

47:58Thomas Gray, this is the mid 18th century, looks at all these gravestones. And he basically does this long poem where he talks about how history shouldn't forget the bravery and the brilliance of these people. I could do it from the top, but one or two particularly important stanzas. He goes, let not ambition mock their useful toil, their homely joys and destiny obscure nor grandeur here with a disdainful smile the short and simple annals of the poor the boast of heraldry the pomp of power and all that beauty all that wealth ever gave await to like the inevitable hour the paths of glory lead but to the grave and there's a particular stanza where my dad the story of my dad's life which is why it's so ironic that i present university challenge so my dad was a genius he was like off the scale clever and but But my dad was sober.

48:50He was one of 11 children. He had six sisters and he was extraordinarily clever. He's the only one of the 11 that left India, but he couldn't pursue his academic ambitions because he had to get his sisters married. You know, this is 60s and 70s India. And so he asked his father if he could pursue a further study. His father slapped him around quite a bit and said, you've got to get your sisters married. But there's a very particular stanza, which is the most important to me, where he talked about chilled penury. because chill penury like extreme poverty um stopped him doing what he wanted and it stopped him pursuing knowledge with a capital k and there's a stanza in gray's elegy where he says but knowledge to their eyes her ample page rich with the spoils of time never did unroll chill penury repressed their noble rage and froze the genial current of the soul and that idea that one stanza combines the knowledge with a capital k and chill penury and you know i would have just loved to university challenge which i am so proud to do is about knowledge with a capital k and that pursuit of knowledge which brought him halfway across the world because he wanted his kids to get a great education um that's what university challenge embodies and so i feel that by presenting that program which i wouldn't you know work really hard at i want to do really well want to do for a long time if i'm lucky i feel like i kind of fulfilled some of his sacrifice and yet he wasn't there to see it and that sucks man thank you for sharing that dude honestly again yeah man mate thank you for bringing out you know i'm rambling man no are you kidding me keep rambling are you kidding this is everything but but it's so it's beautiful right that that um firstly it's so beautiful that you have that relationship with your father yeah like i would try that man like are you kidding me for for so many years in my 20s i just i just ignored my parents and i was just a dick head and I just you know I miss Christmases because I wanted to do more fun things and I just didn't do anything.

50:50You've still got time man. Yeah I know but. You've still got time you know repair it. But I now realize this family is just everything. It's completely everything in so many beautiful ways. So if I called you tomorrow and said Jamie I'm really sorry but dad's got cancer and he's got three months to live what would you do? um

51:19fuck got me I would probably say to him I have a huge I have huge guilt towards my dad um

51:32well mate you've still got time to fix things you know you've still got time to fix things you know you've won the lottery right listening to you and seeing how you feel about it like it's obviously incredibly important that guilt that you feel towards your dad is obviously a very big part of how you think about your relationship with him let me just from from from my pocket let me just take out this absolutely amazing gift i've got for you here it is i've got this gift look what is on the table it's called time with your dad yeah yeah there it is right you've got it you've got it most people don't have that time with their dad yeah you've got it yeah and the reason why I had that is because um I sort of had a narrative in my look my parents got divorced and um you've still come to understand that yeah and I think that I Jesus Christ I've never spoken about this what the hell's going on well maybe he's going to listen to this and I hope he doesn't because yeah I don't know but I feel guilt because I blamed him for a lot it wasn't his fault maybe it was his fault it wasn't as much as I thought it was and you know I said things and yeah Have you said sorry to him?

52:41No No I said I love him Well why have you not said sorry to him?

52:50Mate do it man If you think Hang on It's got to be sincere It's got to be I'm so sorry because

53:00Because It would be admitting to myself That I was just a bit of an idiot for a long time. You just admitted it to me. I know, but it's easier. Don't know why. The fact that it's easier makes it even more important. You do it to your dad. Listen, if you are, if you do feel guilt and you feel you want to say sorry to your dad, what an amazing conversation to have. Like I tell you, mate, that thing where I said, you got, you just got three months to live. I'm afraid. How old is your dad? Uh, 74. Right. One of the things about grief and death is old age is like the sun. in the solar system of old age of diseases, right?

53:39If you're 74, you're going to get something at some point. I really hope he's around for 20 years. I hope he's fit, healthy. I hope there's no dementia outside. And he's a brilliant, he's a, I didn't realize that was so deep in me. I didn't realize, he is like a magical human. Like I spoke, before I spoke to you, I said I was interviewing you and he watched you last night. He was watching you and he said that he was just proud. Yeah, we should call him. I won't ask you to do that when you're crying. Do you want me to call him at some point? I don't think I could do that. I think maybe there's a conversation.

54:15I didn't realise that was in me. All the therapy I've done, what the hell's going on? Never let the hell out. That's crazy. I think there's maybe a conversation that you and your dad want to have at some point. Mate, what a beautiful thing. I think it's a wonderful... Yeah. How... I mean, mate, you've just won the lottery because you've realised that while you've still got the chance to do something about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is... It's a beautiful thing. He could get a heart attack like that today. He's 74. My grandfather died around a similar age. Well, what a spur to action. What an amazing, amazing thing.

54:44How's your relationship with your mum? My relationship with my mum is... I see her on Instagram. She's great. She's fine. And she's a bulldog. And she's just strong. And she'll live to 200, I think. Honestly, she's fine. But I think what happens when parents get divorced, like this is my experience, is as kids, you're confused. and so you probably blame an individual when you it takes two to tango yeah yeah of course i was very much a mummy's boy right and so you lean towards the mum's side and then you get older you go fuck you know to blame a parent um when you don't understand it and you don't and my dad has never my dad has never spoken any ill about my mom or ever what a hero never i bet there's a moment i god it'd be so wonderful to talk to him about it i bet there's a moment jeez i want to speak this i bet there's a moment when he just i mean if that's the case what you say is true as i'm sure it is he would have made that decision at a time when he was hurting i mean i've never met your dad but i'll tell you what he's got a moral depth to him there that's immediate and obvious and i just think what a thing man i mean what a thing if anyone listening to this if you've got the chance to chat to your parents before they go about the stuff that matters do it because I tell you I mean you said this you said this in your chat with PJ towards the end when you were talking about how it's like it was with the girl that you didn't kiss and then you were like I should have just I should have just kissed her I should have just kissed her because the regret later what happened you didn't kiss her I didn't kiss her and then it was my and you told yourself she's like what are you doing I'm just going to kiss her ever since then you've been lunging.

56:27It's my metaphor for life though, right? It's my metaphor for life. Like, and I've always lived by this, is that the regret I felt by not kissing her, I was like, what was I feeling? I was feeling rejection, failure, all these different things. And it would have been over with it. Who would get? So I thought, well, I'm never going to, I don't want to ever regret something I've never done. So I'm going to go and try and do everything. Well, the conversation with your dad is like a billion times more important than not kissing that girl. By the way, I feel sorry. for her man she missed out on a kiss from jamie leg a young jamie was ready to smooch over and they'd be queuing up for that now as you know we did made in chelsea together and you and i like grew up together from 1920 well let's call it 21 22 to 30 you and i were pretty much thick as thieves Yeah.

57:22I'd speak to you every day. I would see you most days. We'd do everything together. And then somehow along the line, it changed. And I want to know, like, why do you think that happened? it's it's a really good question and to be honest like i don't regularly socialize with anyone really i think when we used to spend a huge amount of time together we would also work together right we were on made in chelsea we would see each other a lot we would do made in chelsea new york jesus christ but we did but we had a friendship we had a friendship for 20 years we get into that we had a friendship for 20 years it's like a big deal and then i for me i'll i'll like to hear for me what happened is like we i had the my english wedding and you weren't invited to it and that like kicked off stuff to like not make us friends i have i have i have to say i found i found it pretty confusing i don't need to spend this time going into stuff like that if you don't want but like look you can i don't know i i was i was i was pretty hurt by that and i tried to brush that under the table and i'm sure it was just a like you know i don't want to speak for you but yeah I'm sure it wasn't malicious from you.

58:35Well, at least I'd like to think it wasn't, right? I remember how I found out about that. I was flying back from somewhere and Vogue showed me a Daily Mail article that literally showed me your London wedding celebrations and loads of your friends there. And I think we had had some conversation and you were like, it's not really a friends thing, it's like a family small thing. And there were loads of friends there. and I can remember thinking like what have I what have I done or like who like how what have I done to annoy him and then I and yeah I don't mind saying Vogue was just a bit like it's pretty it's pretty weird that you wouldn't be invited to that you know and I just thought it is a real shame that I wasn't invited to that at first I just brushed it off as oh it's fine it doesn't matter but the more I thought about it the more I probably felt that it did matter um and i don't know and you don't you said it was a kind of genuine mistake and yeah and i was just a genuine big mistake for me as well by the way because i think i was i was stuck in it i there must be a reason for it um like it's obviously not just like a mistake the true reason for it was this during the wedding so was very anxious and having a really tough time with anxiety around, you know, getting married.

1:00:00And like, I'd put her in doing this podcast all about our wedding. And she had said to me before, she said, I just want to get married with my feet in the sand. I don't want all of this. And you want this, Jamie. I don't want all this. So I was battling trying to like, handle all of this podcast we were doing about our wedding and everything like that. And that was quite a lot to handle. And I was just thinking about her. And you, I had had my stag do. And you didn't want to come to the stag do because you didn't want to come to the stag do, which was fine, which I get. But for me, that was like, well, why wouldn't you want to come to the stag do?

1:00:38And so when it came to the English wedding, I was like, this is all hectic. This is a lot. I was just like, it's going to be complicated if I try and invite him because he probably, I don't know if he wants to come because it's going to be like a small thing for lunch. And will he want to come do that? And to be honest, in my head, I just went fine. It's not, it's one thing less to think about. I just won't ask him to come. yeah and i can now focus over here and that's why it happened for the record i would have loved to have been there and i would have flown i would have flown from anywhere to be there right like you've always been a very important person to me the reason why i want to do this and do this is because firstly um yeah it is boring when there are articles coming out saying you're not mates and all these things and every single time that one person is but i get it it is boring and it's and it's suffocating and actually you're caring about your family i'm about to start my family and that's what we care about.

1:01:25And so that, which I get, hold on one second. But, and I'm just, and I'm, look, and I'm happy. And I missed our friendship. Genuinely missed it. I think you admit that you're a tricky person to be friends with, but I think that I'm that constant friend. I'm not a tricky person to be friends with. I'm not. You're definitely a tricky person. I'm not always there. Why am I tricky? Because you're so involved in what you're doing and to be a good friend, you have to, you have to think about your friends quite a lot and because you're so driven by your your own it's not a bad thing your your own success and your family that unless you're in your circle in your present then you're blinded to anything else that's true which makes you as a friend hard to be friends with because friends have to you have to friends are like friends are like a garden you have to water them to keep them alive that's what they are that's how you keep a that's how you keep a friendship.

1:02:20You have to keep watering them the whole time. And you forget to water your friends. What will happen if I forget to water you? But you do. That's how you build friendships. You have to keep doing that. I agree. I agree. You've taught me a lot in my life. And I've said this to you before. The reason why I loved our friendship, or do love our friendship, is because you're incredibly unique. But actually underneath it all, you're quite sensitive without people realising. in some ways. And I know that I can ask you about a lot of different things, whether it's family or relationships or weight training or anything.

1:03:03And you'll give me a pretty good answer and you will want to help me with it. That's true. What is your, what are those things are true? Like there's, there's never been, there has never been a time where i have disliked you what is the if we go to the good times and let's talk about mic just quickly okay what are moments that really stand out for you just like oh god what is like a pivotal moment on made in chelsea that really sticks out that was me and you based where were we what were we doing but new york was i thought i was having a heart attack in a taxi once i legit genuinely i considered asking the taxi driver to take me to the nearest hospital because I was just on such a mad bender like genuinely I like I was coming home it was about 10 a.m and literally I was sat in the back of the cab and I was like how do I know if this feeling is a heart attack and I was like oh my god I swear that like when your left arm goes numb that means you're having a heart attack and then I'm like opening the window going I'm trying to get air in not that that's going to prevent the heart attack and then like I'm kind of just like and then you've got that weird thing it's like do i tell the taxi driver that i think i'm having a heart attack or do i just see if it actually is a heart attack or then will it be too late so no there was there was a new york was full on full on and we were living in a one bedroom apartment in meatpacking district just you and i it was enormous like like like like like the the trip i mean not the apartment the apartment was was pretty cool yeah i slept on a camp bed the entire time and you had the bed every single morning for breakfast we went to this mexican restaurant called dos caminos which we titled toss caminos because it was actually quite shit that whole time was pretty fun as well though to be fair it was great times wasn't it it was it was i mean why do you that was a feeling where you felt like less of a loser i mean the behavior my goodness but like but like you felt like okay cool we're on like a u.s based tv show filming in New York.

1:05:07It felt big and exciting. Felt so exciting. Felt big and exciting. It was fun. But I, but there's a lot. I was big and not exciting. Jesus. It was dreadful. I was just, you know, you'd think, you'd think that you'd take the opportunity to like, you're about to star in some massive TV show. Just look after yourself a little bit. No, just turn up pissed and sweaty to every scene. Do you know what I mean? Massive sweat patches and just like red face and just slurring. like in every scene what are you doing i was just i wasn't even i don't think i was sober for a single minute genuinely it's horrific

1:05:53so someone's listening now and they don't have any friends they feel very lonely or they haven't be able to connect how would that person best make friends okay first of all take the problem seriously and not in any way a sign of anything bad about you. I think people are so embarrassed around their problems with friendship that it stops them from engaging with the topic fruitfully. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you. It's a really difficult thing. You should be no more embarrassed at your problems around friendship than you would be around your problems of, I don't know, climbing Mount Everest.

1:06:24I mean, no one should be expected to know how to do it. So that's the first thing. And then take a few early steps at saying, okay, well, how do I feel more or less close to another human being? What do I need to do in order to get close? And once you start to study that question, you will almost always find that the moments in which you feel closer to somebody are those in which you've been able to share something fragile, potentially embarrassing, potentially dangerous, potentially outside of the so-called normal rules of engagement. It could even be it's a sunny day and you're able to say, I don't much like the sunshine.

1:07:04That's a contrary point of view. And that's the beginning of something a little deeper. Or if somebody says, you're doing okay, even that question, are you doing okay? That's loaded. We shouldn't be asking ourselves, are you doing okay? How are you? Not, are you doing okay? Because that makes it, it's a leading question. The right answer is yes, I'm fine. We should be allowing space in our friendships for something a little bit more complicated. Because a lot of our listeners who will be listening to this, these stages of the lives, perhaps they have just left university or their friends are getting married or their friends are having babies.

1:07:42And so let's flip it. Rather than being the person to break up, they could be the person now being broken up with by their friends because they're not in the right stages of life as everyone else. What do they do? It's survivable. It's fine to lose a friend. The challenge is to make one. Think of alcohol. Alcohol is this great lubricant. I don't drink. I'm not sure the people listening, depending on the wine industry, but let's imagine that all of us should ideally not drink as much as we do. Friendships should not depend on alcohol, but we should be learning what happens when we take an alcohol and do that when we're sober.

1:08:21What is it that people do when they're drunk? They lose fear. And they lose fear around what? Vulnerability. So they're able to say, men are able to go, I love you. I love you, mate. They're able to say, right? Because it's no longer so scary. And that's what you need to do sober. That is brilliant. We should all be learning how to become drunk sober. And to be drunk sober means essentially remembering what it was like when we were drunk and just putting it into action when we're not drunk and to say okay if i were drunk now i probably would say i love the way you do that thing or your eyes are nice or um could i share the fact that i cried all day yesterday whatever if you were drunk and we say that say it now say it now that is so brilliant because i sort of i drank a lot of my 20s and then i i sort of started to stop drinking just because because it didn't do me well, it didn't please me, right, in lots of different ways.

1:09:13But what I missed from it at the beginning was the connections I thought I got with friends. And, oh, when I got drunk, wasn't it fun because we had these deep conversations and we were silly with each other and with this and with that. We should just be drunk without the alcohol with our friendships. Totally. Drunk without the alcohol in our friendships. But it's so scary sometimes to be that vulnerable. But you have to try... Because you have the excuse, God, I was drunk last night. But think about how do you do it? You can create an atmosphere. It's quite easy to change the dynamics of a group.

1:09:41Sometimes we're in a group and we think, right, I'm in a group of people, so I've got to go along with whatever people are talking about. So I've joined the group and they're talking about going skiing. And someone mentioned that they went to France and somebody mentioned that they went to Austria and then there was like House Skis Way and blah, blah, blah. And you think, well, I've got to join this conversation because I'm just in this conversation. Absolutely not. What about suggesting a new conversation or gently steering it towards something else? You can be an actor in your friendship group.

1:10:05You don't merely have to respond. You can be an agent. And part of that could mean to say, as you said, as you described, hey guys, anyone been lonely recently? Or anyone think that they've really messed up their life? Because I think I've completely pulled things up. And on you go, and that will change the dynamic. So don't be afraid to change the mood. Try and change the mood. And most of the time, people are hovering on the surface, bear this in mind, not because they want to, but because they don't know any different. Let's just rehearse that, but it's a really important point. Most people are having superficial conversations not because they want to, not because they're wedded to superficiality, but because they've never been shown that there is an alternative, that there are secure steps from the superficial to the deep that they can safely take.

1:10:50They just don't know it can be done. Wow. Isn't it mad? It's totally mad. It's totally mad. It's the difference between the most boring evening and the really exciting evening. You can shift your evening. We tend to think of interesting conversations a bit like a magical square that you find in a foreign city. And the next day you think, I don't know where this square was. I just stumbled on it late at night. Well, we've got maps. We can actually, you know, this book I wrote was attempting to be a map. It is a map. How you can more reliably find your way to the good moments. Because so often I think that friendships have magical moments that the people around them literally just don't know how it happened.

1:11:25They go, I was really weird. We were in the garden and suddenly it was just a magical moment. And you want to go, no, it wasn't. It wasn't magic. There is no such thing as magic. It was just that you found a way, a door opened, and you found a way to something good. And you know what? You can do it again. It's why we invented agriculture. In the early days, people found a wild strawberry. Oh, that's nice, that wild strawberry. We must pray a bit more so we get more wild strawberries. And then somebody thought, no, you don't have to pray. Just invent agriculture. Lay some seeds out and then you'll grown you'll have strawberries every day so we can have conversational strawberries every day we don't have the wild strawberries i don't know why i was in a friendship with bill and jane we suddenly had a great conversation you know plan for it we can plan for this every day it's so true because you have those moments god wasn't it the best night ever last night we just and it's typically yeah sure it's around maybe moments of like cycling naked or whatever it is but also it's typically around but you know what i mean it is you have those moments where you go like That was wild.

1:12:24We swam naked in the sea and we did this. And that was so fun. But actually, it's normally around conversation. Somebody opened a door. Correct. Somebody allowed, somebody gave permission to do something that allowed for depth to occur. And it's not magic. It's not magic at all. Not magic at all. We could be having this every single time. God, what a whirlwind. What an absolute whirlwind. But how incredible. So many takeaways. So many interesting, so many interesting conversations that make me want to go and have more conversations with people about what I've listened to. That's it. It really opens up your, I don't know, like what you speak about with friends at the pub or wherever else you're going with them.

1:13:04I can't, I'm really sorry to anyone I know because every other sentence that comes out my mouth is, I was in an interview, one of the shows that we did the other day, some of our guests said this thing, but like, it's such an honour to get to like sit and listen to these, these amazing guests and hear like all these takeaways. 100%. I mean, it's unreal. It's so good. Well, we hope you enjoyed that. We've got such an amazing year coming up. Can't wait for it. I know. It's going to be absolutely incredible. And the last thing that we've really got to say is this is actually going to be my last episode on Great Company.

1:13:37No! Don't do it! I'm leaving. I'm going to be joining you guys as owls now. And the thing with Great Company is this is such a subtle thing and I don't know whether anyone ever notices it. But when we started the show, we'd get the guests to say, hi, I'm blah, blah, and I'm great company. And then we shifted it. So they now say, I'm in great company. And it's that one tiny word, in. But for us, this show is all about connection. And the other person on this show is you guys. You're the great company. So when the guests say, I'm in great company, I've always felt that that's you guys. and so I'm going to be coming and joining you all as an owl now because I'm going to be handing the baton on to our amazing producer Helen and our amazing, amazing, great company team who have been working on this show for the last six months so absolutely nothing will be changing as far as you're interested just their life will change a little bit A little bit, yeah, we'll miss you a lot Well, I'll miss you, it's been such a joy growing this show I think it's so special and anyone who's ever listened whether you've listened from the beginning or you've listened to just one or two if you've listened to like just this one imagine we appreciate you so much and like yeah it's been such a joy it's such a special show to make and the next year is going to be so exciting so yeah this is my goodbye for now for now you can always come back whenever we need an interview with jamie oh yeah coming back i'll pop on back but we'll end the show how we end every show because we never miss a beat.

1:15:10So we'll see you all next week for another episode of Great Company.