JACK OSBOURNE: AI Means Ozzy’s Legacy Can Last Forever

0:00I heard that you're creating an AI version. I think people thought that, you know, next thing you know, it's going to be Ozzy Osbourne selling cell phones. I know you got backlash. The backlash, it was my own fault. I, uh, obviously deeply heartbroken that he's gone, but also he went the way he wanted to. It's like having your left hand and your right hand. And then all of a sudden you wake up and you're missing this, you know, people just like throwing drinks at me. I was like 16 and I was getting literally physically pulled off the street into bars. I was so high I didn't make it to the film, the pilot.

0:33I just didn't show up. How much did they pay you to begin with? Nothing.

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4:11If you haven't already, before we start the show, if you can click that subscribe button, join the amazing community, and we'll keep making the show better for you guys every single week. All right, here we go. Enjoy this wild episode of Great Company with Jack Osborne. What age were you when you started your reality show with your family? So we started about a month before I turned 16. Do you remember that moment when your family said like, right, we're going to do this, we're going to do this show? Yeah. I flip-flopped. It was like, yeah and i was like oh no wait i don't know it was like this uh there was a bit of apprehension about it and ultimately the deciding factor for me was because i was about turn 16 and you can drive in the states at 16 yeah i was like well am i even going to get paid for this and they were like yeah and i was like well how much can i buy a car at the end of it and they were like yeah and i was like okay i'll do it it's quite entrepreneurial yeah i was like great i wanted a truck how much did they pay you to begin with nothing they paid you nothing so here's the crazy thing when we signed up to do the osbornes um which by the way can i just say was yeah man you paved the way for some great people and also some terrible people too but dude that show yeah it's a fun one for sure it's funny though like if i if you go back and watch it it plays more like a youtube show than it does a modern reality 100 yeah it's very uh it's very just kind of run and gun but you're saying they didn't pay you so what happened so what happened was we agreed to do the show yeah and it was they started filming in like late september early october of 2001 and my mom kind of saw you know she we didn't we didn't know we were getting into all but ultimately she was like yeah this is a great opportunity for you guys the kids uh because mtv at the time was mega mega it was like the end all be all for you know for the youth and my dad was promoting an album and a tour and so she was like this is great promo you know let's let's do this um and so we kept kind of kicking the can down the road with the contract or mtv and what was meant to be like a three-week pilot that we shot turned into you know months and then while we're still filming They're like, yeah, we've got an air date.

6:29We're going to air in March of 2001. But we really need to get this release signed. We really need to get this contract signed. And we were like, yeah, yeah, no problem, no problem. Obviously, things moved much slower back then. There was, you know, you didn't have Claude reviewing contracts. It was like, you know, dusty lawyers with, you know, the, you know, leather patch tweed jackets kind of yelling at each other and sending faxes. and the show, what ended up happening was we kept, yeah, yeah, we'll get the deal done, we'll get the deal done and the show aired and we hadn't signed anything so they hadn't paid us That's crazy Yeah, and we hadn't even signed an appearance release so the show airs and becomes this overnight success but none of us had signed a contract and so at that point we kind of held all the cards and turned around to MTV and were like, all right, pay up.

7:23Yeah. Because it's crazy. Eight million viewers. Yeah. That's what it was getting, which is, that's a wild amount. And it was global. Yeah. Which is crazy for like being thrown into the spotlight without like, but you're not really taught. There's no handbook. There's no guy, but there's no nothing. Yeah. And you're 15 years old and you're suddenly famous. And then you have to deal with life and everything in school. and acne and hair and this and that and that's a wild thing to even experience yeah it was it was really intense but how do you navigate that jack because that's crazy to know i don't i yeah i really didn't navigate it well i had a lot of resentment i had a lot of like embarrassment because i was i was not comfortable with like some of the stuff that made it on the air but ultimately i kind of i i think i used i used my powers for evil and i was like screw it i can get to any club any bar i can meet any chick it was like yeah i just went full on you know just i went i went to the dark side of the force really yeah it was just like turbo turbo turbo yeah i mean there were there were when the show was at its height and it was getting you know crazy crazy viewers every night it was on i remember i was in new york city and i was downtown i was like 16 and i was getting pulled off literally physically pulled off the street into bars and like people just like throwing drinks at me at 16 if i ever saw someone giving a 16 year old alcohol in a bar today i would be like i would lose my shit yeah because you've experienced it you know what's going to happen and the legal age in america is 21 yeah so you were 16 years old people were getting you drunk because they were just like this guy's great we just and and of course you're going to accept it oh full on you're like oh this is amazing and you feel like you can do you know when you had and i was it's my daughter was kind of asking me about the show and that time period because what was my 70s growing up like you know talk to your parents about over the 70s like my daughters talked to me about like the early 2000s like what was what was like 2002 like like what was that you know and this that and um and I was explaining I was like you know the the huge difference with fame now versus fame 20 years ago was there was only a few pipelines right you were you did a tv show you were a movie star you were a musician and to support that there was magazines and there was like news shows so it wasn't like drinking from a fire hose where it comes to consuming media like it is today like you could be sat next to a youtuber on a plane who's got 20 million subscribers on youtube and you might have no idea who that person is totally whereas back then everyone kind of knew who everyone was if they were in the zeitgeist and kind of you know air quote famous yeah and and i was like it was a it was a a level that you just isn't really replicated now because i guess if you would compare it right you know some big youtuber or you know someone who's got you know i've got a reality show now that is successful in today's terms, they're not going to put police barricades in front of the hotel if they're visiting New York City.

10:36Like, that's the shit that was happening to us. Was that happening to you? Oh, yeah. Get out of here. Yeah, it was like... That is fucking wild. Yeah, like, you know, hundreds of people waiting for us outside of a hotel. I'm like, who fucking does that? For my acne-covered Afro face. Like, I'm like, what? That is wild. It's insane. Yeah, it was insane. Addictive? no i i because i i was i was really um had like this kind of underlying embarrassment about it in a weird way i was just kind of like because i was awkward i didn't know how to handle it and as you said there was no playbook it was just like because we didn't know that this would be a thing man so if you think back to your younger self then you must feel so sorry for your younger self I do but not in the not in that context I feel I feel sorry for myself that I that it's well it's that you know youth is wasted on the young right I wish I would have enjoyed it more because it was fun there was great moments there was these amazing scenarios that I said I found myself in ultimately it led to so many amazing opportunities and you know I've had a really exciting career since but it um yeah i wish i i wish i would have told myself like just enjoy this enjoy the moment yeah but you don't you don't um i did a reality show in the uk right and a lot of my friends who did the reality show with me they're like they reject it do you look back at it and regret doing it in a way or are you just like no i'm proud of that i'm proud of what we did i'm proud of what we created and i own it absolutely absolutely best way to be 100 and and i and i but i could relate to the rejecting of it because I think I was I was there for a long time and I wonder have you ever asked them do they reject it because they couldn't control it and I think that that's a big part of it you know when you when you are doing a reality show yes it's about you but you're jumping into someone's boat and they're driving it and you're just going along for the ride and you're like all right and when you lose that control jack like it's crazy because then you try and grab control wherever it is what when you look back at the show what are those little like big moments in the in the show that you kind of regret that you go I didn't have control over that um there was a lot of stuff about like like I was really like I was always really secretive about like relationships and like dating and like I never felt and I never felt like it kind of forced me to be really secretive about things and I wish I I just I wish I had more confidence in kind of saying like hey I don't want this stuff on the air or I don't you know I'm not comfortable with that stuff being but i just didn't feel like i could say it even though we did have full creative control and so it was like i i think maybe advocating for myself with what was going on the air and that's probably where it goes but i don't spend much time going i shoulda coulda woulda because i think a part of what made the show what it was was the fact that we were so just honest with it all and like here it is can we talk about aussie just for a second man as legends go what a legend oh yeah absolutely but the last person on the planet would ever tell you he was a legend just amazing right and his last concert that Ozzy did um the doctor said that if he was to perform at the concert that would probably be the last right can you explain that to me yeah like I I they basically were just saying like you've you've got so many things going on like we have, we recommend you don't do this because the energy expenditure, like you've got to go and have like these procedures done.

14:15There was like something with his heart and he had some like artery stuff going on and he, he'd had, you know, he'd had a ton of medical kind of mishaps leading up to the show. And they were just like, energetically, this is gonna, this is not good. This is not good. Like you, you don't have it in you. And he was just like, no, I'm doing it. Oh, wow. Yeah. That is insane. Yeah. And then 17 days later, he passed away. Yeah. Man, I'm so sorry. It's okay. Like, thank you. Yeah. But he wanted his journey. And so I can't, I'm not angry at that. It's like, I mean, if someone said to you, like, pick how you want to go, you would want to pick how you want to go, right?

15:00You wouldn't want to, I can tell you this. And I said this to my wife. I was like, if something ever happens to me, do not let me die in a hospital hooked up to a bunch of machines in a fucking stinky, god awful building. Like with people that really, you know, they care about you, but they don't care about you. It's like, no, like, I think. I think everyone wants to at least have some say in how they go. If you because we're all going to go. And so I think I was deeply heartbroken that he's gone, but also he went the way he wanted to. You said you went on tour with them when you were younger?

15:37Oh, yeah. Wild and amazing. That was great. Yeah, it was so much fun. It's like, you know, living on a tour bus and going to all these, you know, really crazy places. And this was in, you know, in the heyday, right? This was in like the 80s, 90s, early 2000s. So it was, yeah, it was fun. Watching your hero be a hero for others is kind of incredible. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, and it was, I can remember having this thought at one point, right? And, you know, I'd be at a show and there'd be, you know, 30 ,000, 40 ,000 people. It's a massive venue and all this stuff. They're all there to see him. And this was probably when I was in, I actually don't remember the age where I kind of had this thought.

16:18but I was like oh it's as I became more aware of who my dad really was you know because you just it's not like he you know worked in an office and had a you know a Saturday garage band with his mates and then they you know released a track and they made it like I grew up and he was already very well you know it was just who he was is and I could remember being at the show and being like wow like all these people are here to see him and I had this like moment of like gratitude of like I just got to go see him did you get to say all the things that you wanted to do? Absolutely in the last decade of his life we spent so much time together amazing we did Ozzy and Jack's world detour so for like you know we had like three seasons of that show and we did tons of traveling and going to all these fun places and and then you know the and then when he got sick he was he was at home you know and it was the longest he'd ever just been like at home uh for better or for worse you know it's i wish it wasn't the case but there's also like a level of gratitude in the in that that or at least i've chosen to kind of lean into the the positive of it like it forced him to slow down and forced it you know he he was around you could see him whenever and and yeah there was the covet of it all and a lot of frustration around that as everyone experienced, but, um, it's still, you know, I, I choose to kind of try and find the, you know, the, the glass half full side of it versus, you know, the ultimately what it led to.

18:01And if he had been in good health and hadn't had all the, you know, complications with his surgeries, you know, I don't know if there ever would have been a time where he slowed down you know he was just he was go go go all the time and and so having that you know being able to look back and go okay like there was there was a lot of um yeah there was just there's a lot of good that kind of came from that and your mom's okay yeah she's okay she's hanging in there you know i don't i don't think it's you know we were talking about it yesterday it's you know we she's it's not like you're okay but you're not okay you know that's that's the kind of way to put it she says there's this great philly bob thornton quote where he talks about you know with with grief he you know talks about grieving over the loss of his brother and he says that at any at all times i'm 50 okay and i'm 50 heartbroken at all times and i think you know and i think that kind of speaks to you know i think a lot of where she's at the people who love Ozzy right no Ozzy Osbourne for Ozzy Osbourne and I get the pleasure of sitting with you what from your side your personal what was the greatest thing about your dad well I jokingly always said he was he was the most humble egomaniac you'll ever meet you know he would he was the guy that just doing what he did you know contributing to you know whether you like my dad's music or not he contributed great to pop culture and to music and to you know an art form 100 but he he never it never changed him in the sense that you know he wasn't seeking a knighthood he wasn't trying to elevate himself into as this like grandiose like i am this you know enlightened gift to the world he was just kind of like it's just what i do and but in the same regard he would turn around and be like but i'm a fucking rock star he's a fucking rock star yeah man i love the fact you you i heard that you're creating an ai version yeah we're doing this it's and by the way i know you got backlash i think it's a fucking great idea yeah i love it well and and that's what that you know the backlash it was my own fault i you know i was it was like we just kind of figured this thing out and that we were going to do it And I guess I didn't, I wasn't properly armed with the way to properly explain what it was.

20:31And I think people thought that, you know, next thing you know, it's going to be Ozzy Osbourne, you know, doing freaking, you know, selling, you know, cell phones. It's like, no, what we, and a lot of people are doing this now where essentially by creating the AI model and creating the digital fingerprint of, you know, whoever, whatever, you know, whether it's my father or, you know, Bob Marley's people are doing it and Michael Jackson's team are doing it. Exactly. By kind of creating this digital fingerprint, you ultimately will own the digital IP and image of that person. And so as to what it can be used for now, you know, yeah, there's a handful of things, but down the road, it's where things are going, right?

21:21It's, it's just, it's no different than saying, I want to own, you know, my, you know, images of my father, I want to own, you know, his intellectual property, whatever. It's just another avenue. And the fact that AI is what it is it's not going anywhere it's not changing it was our choice to go hey we should be out in front of this and we should we should not be you know on the back foot with having this kind of new pillar of entertainment properly locked down i think it's great

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24:05How did becoming a dad change your life? Oh, man. It was everything. But I became a dad relatively, I guess, like globally speaking, not young, but L.A. speaking, very young. Like I could, like, I remember with my, my first wife when we, I was like 26 when we had, uh, LA speaking is young. I remember my wife's doctor used to call us kiddos. Hey kiddos, what's going on? And I'm like, am I on like teen mom here? Like I'm 26 and have a job and I'm being called a kiddo and in the waiting room of a, you know, of an OB. and you look around you just see a bunch of you know not there's anything wrong with it but you see like people with grey hair and they're pregnant it's like oh this is so LA were you nervous about it?

24:49oh terrified but I also I think there was there was also a thing I hadn't really been exposed to kids very much before having kids and so I think there was I was blissfully ignorant yeah I had this whole theory that actually there's an amazing thing with the naivety yeah because if you're like I'm 37 now right i know i look very young but i'm hey kiddo yeah thanks man that's what i get the whole time because i was 36 when sophie got pregnant my whole life i had my routine i knew what i wanted to do i like getting up and going to the gym i like seeing my friends i like hanging out i had all of that set and so then when you have a kid that all changes but when you're younger you don't you're kind of free you don't have that you're just naive to it all yeah which makes it so much easier i think yeah it absolutely does like friends of mine who are just having kids now in their late 30s 40s and they're like oh man like this is such an adjustment they're like well should have started earlier bro but but i think also right like um you know they're reading through everything you've done in your life man your your life is is is pretty unique definitely unique definitely unique man yeah and now becoming a dad how do you want a parent do you think Like, so I'm entering like this new phase now because I'm now parenting a teenager.

26:06So I have a 14-year-old all the way down to a seven-month-old. And so I've never parented a teenager before. I've parented an 11-year-old and an 8-year-old and a 4-year-old before. I know kind of the deal. And so now having a 14-year-old, it's a different skill set I'm having to learn. Explain that. What do you mean? Well, it's so different because she, you know, my eldest, we'll call her the canary in the coal mine, right? Like we, we, she was the first. And so I learned how to kind of replicate everything with the younger sisters from, from how I parented her. But now that she's a teenager and it's a, it's, you know, having a teenager in 2026 is it's, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot you have to contend with.

26:52And so I think for me, the way I parent her now is I'm not afraid to showcase that, uh, the imperfections of being a parent. I think we all look at our parents like that's great. They're these, Oh, but they're the perfect. This is it. This is like, they're the, they're the perfect person that, you know, and, and so I try and manage that and be like, listen, like, um, you know, you screw up. I screw up. Like it's, it's okay to mess up. I mess up all the time. And so I, I don't, uh, I try and be, uh, give her an honest portrayal because she's, you know, she's going to be in, she's gonna be 18 in four years.

27:33And it's, that's wild. That's a great way to do it. Yeah. Cause I don't want her to ever be like, well, you portrayed like you were this perfect human. And now that I'm adult, I'm seeing these faults in you that I was unaware of. And how could you be, you know, how, how could you not be authentic? and I'm just trying to be authentic now because ultimately we're going to spend most of our lives with our children as adults. When was the first time that you realized that your parents weren't superheroes, that they weren't being, like I remember when I was telling you like, you're not always right.

28:06Like that was a crazy moment for me. I think it was probably when I was older and I was aware of their mistakes that they were making when I was like, well, wait a second, like that doesn't make sense yeah and it was a bit a bit shocking you know the good thing about my parents though is that they were always very honest we never it never was the thing where like you know i never saw my parents fight i never you know there's a lot of people that will portray to their kids like superhero status yeah my parents never were that um probably to a fault like i had a real deep understanding of my parents just because of our we were all so close we all you know i spent so much time with my parents growing up um that i got a good sense but it was also like warts and all you know like i got i got a really good sense of the good sides and the bad sides kind of equally and um and that's okay you know that's how they they chose to parent and i'm grateful for it but you know i think i mean i know i'm doing things differently than my parents did i think we all kind of you know i think it's kind of a part of the human evolution we all try and we always try and do things a little bit better.

29:17Dude, what were you like as a teenager? I was insane. I was absolutely insane. Give me a second bike. The shit, and I say this to my daughter, the shit that I was doing at her age versus what she does, it's night and day. Like I was, you know, at 14, I would ride my bike from the mean streets of Beverly Hills to the Sunset Strip. I would be out until two in the morning going from club to club, watching bands and drinking and just doing crazy shit. And I would never in a million years. My daughter is talking about going to a Halloween party for Halloween this year. And I'm like, well, whose house is it at?

29:59Can I speak to the parents? Are there going to be parents at this house? What kids are going to... I want to know everything. yeah and so it's yeah it was uh it was a i was i remember the day i turned 13 i used to i used to be involved in this like independent like theater group i got pulled into it because my sister's school tutor needed to cast like a young they needed like a someone to play a kid in this play and he's like you want to do it and i was like okay so i was going to all these college parties when I was like 12. And I remember the day I turned 13, this really grumpy guy looked at me and was like, welcome to the worst years of your life.

30:39And he was so right. Jesus, that is wild. Do you remember the first time you tried alcohol? Yeah. Yeah, I do. What was it? I think I just stole like a Stella or something and went and drank it in the backyard kind of thing. And then it was like, oh, this shit's gross. And then as you get older and kind of fall into the, you know, not the most savory of, you know, teenagers. You know, I always gravitated towards the older kids kind of thing. I was exactly the same as that. I remember the first time I tried alcohol, it was like this. It was, I didn't like the taste, but it was, the feeling of it was like nectar.

31:19It was like, oh my God, I can't believe that this makes me feel like relaxed and calm. And like you, ADHD, dyslexia, just crazy kid. It calmed me down. So I just, I enjoyed it. I thought it was really, really good. And I, because I was a boarding school, I had restrictions, right? So I couldn't go and do things. You'd seen that you didn't have restrictions. So you could just kind of go and do everything. And then you would, if you keep drinking, drinking, drinking, that kind of leads to maybe not the best things, right? Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. Because I think kids crave boundaries, right? They come into the world with these default settings, which is just chaos.

31:57And I think it's, I know for me, I needed these guardrails to, what I now know is, you know, craved guardrails, I just didn't have them. And it just fed into that like self-will run riot. Did you have zero guardrails? My parents would try. They absolutely would try. But I think the main focus was they were more concerned about my sisters and they're having guardrails around them. and they parented me versus my sisters very differently. They were a lot more strict with them and they had curfew. They had to be home at a certain time, whereas I didn't for a while. And then they kind of were like, wait a second, this is getting a little too much.

32:39Why do you think there was that fascination with the older kids? I think it was because I had spent so much of my childhood in an adult environment. And I hated feeling like a kid. I hated that whole notion of like, oh, you know, sit at the kid table at dinner. Like I liked, you know, I used to go to meetings with my mom. I would go on tour with my dad. So I was always around these older people. And I just felt, you know, I can remember my first day out of high school, I instantly became friends with all the seniors when I was in ninth grade. And so it was like, that just felt more comfortable for me.

33:17And I had close relationships with guys in a lot of the bands that toured with my dad. And so I think it was just like familiar. It was like, oh, look, it's an older guy, does music, kind of knows my world. It felt like those were people that were, I understood, and it felt like they were, I don't know, at the time, I was like, yeah, it's like having older brothers kind of thing. Because I was in a house of, you know, with two crazy sisters. And I was like, I need older brothers around. You need something like that. Yeah. Can we talk about drinking as well? Sure, yeah. because I kind of love how honest and open you are about that.

33:52And I know that so many people listening to this as well probably look up to you in the fact that you talk about your sobriety and the fact that you, you know, at 17 years old, you kind of, you went to rehab and you haven't had a drink since then. You had your first drink at 13, 12, whatever it was, last drink at 17. So it's a young age to make that decision and to be put into rehab. Do you remember that moment that you were taken to rehab? Oh, yeah. What happened? Yeah, I was supposed to shoot a pilot for MTV. It's actually a show well ahead of its time. I came up with this idea called Jack's Midnight Munchies.

34:24And the show was - This is your idea? This was my idea. And MTV were going to film this pilot. And it was a cooking show that was about, it was basically like, all right, what I would have - Good idea. Yeah, I would have celebrity guests come on who were kind of known potheads. And it's like, all right, when you're stoned off your face, what do you cook at night? and so it was like cooking show where you know it was yeah anyway well you were high yeah it's a good idea yeah great great right yeah if you're into that thing uh but i was so high i didn't make it to the film the pilot i just didn't show up and so it that was like the straw that broke the camel's back with my my family they were like this cannot be and so they sent these like security guards to like, you know, do that, like snatch and grab, like grab me.

35:12And then they were going to take me to treatment. But I kind of saw it coming and I took off my, you know, extracurricular activities had gone from, you know, drinking to, you know, to doing, doing drugs and pretty hard drugs at that. And, um, a friend had called my mom and was like, Hey, he's, you know, he's doing all this stuff and it's really dangerous. And you should be aware of how bad he really is. Cause I I was, you know, I was very much kind of on my own island and dodging my parents and not spending a lot of time at home and sleeping out and whatever. And my parents had a beach house at the time that I kind of was just holed up in.

35:49And so I didn't show up for this pilot. She sends these like two big, you know, bodyguards to kind of go and grab me and bring me back to, you know, the house in Beverly Hills because they were going to ship me off somewhere. And I took off for the weekend and had this like, just. insane, just tragic, horrible, nothing glamorous about it. And like quite heartbreaking. If I even, if I look at it from a parent's perspective and, um, I ended up waking up on, uh, Easter Sunday, 2003. And this, this girl that I'd been hanging out with, she kind of was like, you know, maybe going away somewhere might not be a bad idea just to like dry out and just, you know, detox yourself.

36:35You know, it's pretty, you know, you're getting kind of crazy. I was like, Oh, I don't know. I don't know. And I went back to our beach house, at which point my parents had gone to the bed. They'd turned up at the beach house and, and, you know, they just were like, this can't be and you got to get you got to get right this, that and the other. And I was just like, Okay, like, I'll, I'll go, I'll go to treatment. Having kind of this wild weekend and realizing like, yeah, that was pretty, pretty insane. How wild was it? Oh, it was like, I mean, I, there are a few chunks. I don't remember. Like it was full blackout, like, you know, and I was in for, I think about a day and a half, like just in this garage in Venice at my friend's studio, just out of my mind and ended up in a hotel room and held a butter knife to someone's throat.

37:27Like it was just, it was insane. It was nuts. And I, but I, the mental health side of it was really, really bad. Like I was having just horrible depression, like full suicidal ideation. And, and I just kind of woke up on that Easter Sunday and it was like, I, I have to, this, this can't be like, I don't think I'm going to, I won't, I won't finish it. I won't make the summer basically. Cause I was, yeah. Cause I, and I was, I was drinking and doing Oxycontin, which is like, that's the, the kiss of death like that's where you don't you don't wake up with that combination i'm so sorry man it's okay i'm i'm grateful for it no i know you are but also but also just it's in it's a lot to deal with because i imagine you're the 17 year old kid you're just feeling insecure you don't know about this world you're going to hotels and there's police barricades outside and you're just like what the fuck is going on here and this stuff that i'm taking makes me forget about all of that 100 yeah so someone's listening right now and they're in the same position that you were in when you were 17, what would you say to that person?

38:32There's another way. It doesn't have to be like this. There is a solution to this, but you have to want it. The only way to really succeed in this is no one can do the work for you and you have to want it, but it is available. And I used to be such a hardliner with recovery. It was like I was super black and white. You're rather in 12 step recovery, you know, doing the deal, working steps, sponsoring people, doing the deal, you know, uh, and that that's the only way to do it. But I think there's now there, there's, there's, there's so many ways to skin the cat. And I think it, I think recovery is such an individualized, uh, experience to people.

39:14Yes. That total abstinence model absolutely works for a lot of people, but it doesn't always work for everyone. And I, and no, and I think that um it that's that scares a lot of people right that like oh well i'm not i you know the whole teetotal thing and this that and the other like listen it's a a well you know and and uh something that is often said in recovery it's about progress not perfection right and and if you can find a way to start moving the needle in a more favorable direction with how you're choosing to self-medicate You know, I listen option one always go teetotal, you know, dive into the program, find God, find this, you know, find the steps, do that.

39:58It works. It absolutely does. If you are constitutionally incapable of doing that, there are other there are other options out there. You know, there's all this medication out there that, you know, that helps. And I'm I'm just of the mindset of like, it doesn't have to be black and white, but you have to move the needle somehow. And congrats to you. How do you stay sober then? um i i got i got really into recovery you know i i a lot of meetings um you know yes the therapy side of things and you know the you know the with 12-step recovery it does a really good job laying out like hey this is this is how it can be done at face value you look at it and you're like all right that seems pretty easy but it is incredibly hard you know it is a very rigorous process.

40:43But I needed that structure. You know, I need that roadmap. And I also, the big thing for me was community. It was, it's everything. It is everything. It's everything. It's everything to like, the more I look into it, the more I understand community connection is all we need. A hundred percent. And where, and where we've moved. And honestly, I think one of the greatest things about 12-step recovery is that it's, you know, we're hardwired to be tribal creatures. Yeah. You know, humans have only been living in single family homes for the last, what, maybe 150 years. Crazy, right? We were, it was, it was communities and it was tribal structure and villages and whatever.

41:22And now it's like, you go to the four walls of your house or your flat or whatever, and you don't really know your neighbor and you have, you know, maybe some friends you hang out with here and there and we've become these insular kind of solo beings that we're not meant to be have you ever had moments in your life where you felt like your sobriety has been threatened truthfully um or no yeah yes but so for me it you know addiction's whack-a-mole it's it doesn't just you know i am drinking alcohol and doing drugs is it was the is a symptom of a malady, a disease that I have. So just because I remove the drugs and alcohol, it doesn't mean that that disease isn't still there.

42:09And it will always find a way for me. And I have to be so vigilant about how I'm how I'm operating, you know, whether it's through food, whether it's through spending, whether it's through porn, whether it's through whatever, like if I can get a dopamine hit, if something can make me feel different, video games, oh my god i used to have the craziest video game addiction are you serious oh my god yeah like what like how many hours would you so you know are you are you familiar with gaming yeah okay you know pub g no so there's a game called pub g it was the it was player unknown battlegrounds it was the precursor to fortnight okay i think i played i put 6 000 hours into that game i was like a full long crackhead 6 000 hours how many days is that you can each have that is a crazy amount i mean yeah it was over a long period but like sure but yeah but i've always if if if i can find something that makes me feel different i will i can i can go wild into it because it makes it it's it's it's that escape.

43:16It's the escape. It's the pacifier. You know, it's like I want I want that dummy in my mouth. So I don't have to deal with you know, with the discomfort of the human experience. Do you get addicted to work? Yes, I can do I can do do you hyper focus? Yeah, yeah. But I've been finding myself doing that a lot lately. But it's okay. It's like in a healthy way. As my as my buddy said, he's like, you're just you're in grad school right now. You You just need to focus. You've got a lot on your plate. Do you know that's 6 ,000 hours is 250 days. That's full days. That's 24 hours. Are you shaming me right now?

43:54No, I'm not shaming me. I'm not shaming me. You know, it's crazy. I saw a statistic, right? Which is, you know, it's about scrolling social media, right? If you scroll on social media two hours a day, two hours a day, right? That's 30 days a year you're spending on social media. It's wild, man. We're not thinking it's crazy. We're just like addicted to all these different things the whole time. Do you think that's why your podcast, Trying Not to Die, do you think that's the inspiration behind it? A little bit because I think when you boil it all down, right, the reason why I went with Trying Not to Die is because that's all anyone is…

44:25Great name. It wasn't taken. No, it wasn't taken. Good. Let's go. Because everything we do is an effort to try to not to die, right? You wake up, you brush your teeth. You brush your teeth because you don't want your teeth to rot because you can get an infection. It can kill you. Your teeth fall out and you look gross. All right, try not to die there. I want to eat right. All right, try not to die there. I want to go to the gym. Try not to die there. I've got a health issue. I'm trying to... It's everything kind of will devolve down to that real basic fundamental of like, this is an effort to not leave this experience.

45:03So do you believe in longevity? Yeah, I do. Absolutely. And do you purposely go after it in different ways? I do it not out of fear. I do it out of passion, if that makes sense. I think a lot of people that are like, oh, I don't want to die. I don't want to die. Well, why don't you want to die? What is it you're afraid of? For me, I do a lot of the kind of longevity, like wellness stuff because I have things that I enjoy to do and I want to keep doing them. I enjoy, I love jujitsu. I want to keep doing that. You know, I love being able to go do things with my kids. I want to keep doing that. So it's not about the fear of, oh, God, well, if I don't do that, if I don't take this magic serum or take this handful of supplements, then I'm going to age out.

45:51It's like that's not my reason. It's just because I like to do fun shit. So you're not scared of dying? The aspect of death that scares me is that I don't want to miss out on my kids. That's it. You know, I think death is just another level in the system.

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47:1626 years old, you just had your first kid. And suddenly you lose 60 % of your eyesight in your right eye. What happens? So I was away working and I lost a huge part of my vision, my right eye, And I came back to Los Angeles and go to the eye doctor because that's my eye. I can't see. So I figured eye doctor. And the eye doctor was running all these tests. And then he kind of sent me to the emergency room to go get an MRI, which I don't do MRIs in emergency room. That's kind of like, oh, you need a book. You need to go. It's a whole thing. But he was like, no, no, you need to get an MRI like now.

48:00So he sends me over to the hospital. and, you know, I go into the machine, you know, the whole thing and, you know, very slow, long process to get into an MRI and turns out that I have all these lesions in my brain and my spine and basically indicated multiple sclerosis. And what was going on was, you know, my nerve, my optic nerve in my eye, it was, you know, essentially being attacked because of multiple sclerosis. And, yeah, that's why I lost the vision and it kind of threw me down this whole strange new journey of living with MS. And when you get that diagnosis, what did it make you feel? I was frustrated.

48:41I was really frustrated because I was like, oh, man, like, you know, I just had a baby. I'd always, you know, up until that point in my adult life, I'd done so much like adventuring and I'd done that show, you know, Adrenaline Junkie in England where I'd travel the world and do all these crazy things for years. And, and I enjoyed the, just being like a physically active person. And, um, and I was just so like deflated in the sense that, cause you go to the worst case scenario when you get news like that. And so in my mind with how little I knew about MS, it was like, well, like, I guess I got to find a house that's got, you know, wheelchair access now.

49:23And, you know, how's that going to work? and yeah i i just went to i will no longer be able-bodied um that's so scary it is yeah and it's terrible because you're like like why for sake what yeah totally and i and it's funny i going back to like community and people you could call in times of need you know i had this i had a very good friend in in recovering but he's a he's like the most like surly just like you know just straight shooter is like makes a lot of enemies but if you're his friend you're his friend and I called him and I was like dude I just got this news and he goes well you're gonna die today I'm like well no he's like good call me and borrow and hung up the phone I was like okay but it was just what I needed in the sense of like you know as tripe and as cliche as it is but like you know day at a time right It's all we got.

50:21And so that was his way of being like, okay, that might happen, but it's not happening today, and I'll speak to you tomorrow. That's what a nice person would say. But you look healthy. I am, yeah. You look super fit. Yeah, I am, yeah. And that's the frustrating thing about having an autoimmune disease like multiple sclerosis. It is as unique to the individual who has it as their own fingerprint. Because you could meet someone who is the same age as me, got diagnosed the same day as me, and they could have a completely different trajectory with it because of the nature of what the disease does to the body.

51:02Really? Yeah, because it attacks your nerve endings. And so your whole body is nerve endings. But it doesn't necessarily follow the same track with how it breaks down, what nerves, when and where. It just, you know, because my two biggest flare-ups were my legs went numb for about three or four months, 18 months prior to me going blind in my right eye. So, you know, my knucklehead goes, well, how are my legs and my eye, like, how does that connect? And so it does just affect everyone differently. I mean, yes, there's buckets of common, you know, issues that people do suffer, but for the most part, it's so individualized.

51:43so what does it look like living day to day for me i'm super not bothered by it you know i'll have some little things here and there like i had this bout where it felt like i had like road rash on my body for and that was really uncomfortable yeah like couldn't like bed sheets hurt like um but for the i mean i mean touch wood i've been so lucky that i haven't been continuously played because I have people in my life that got diagnosed after me and are in much worse places with it. And it's just the way that their body, you know, tries to fight this autoimmune disease. And you're so positive. I love it.

52:25Thank you. That mindset is so great. Yes, because you've got to have that mindset, right? Do you eat super healthy? No? Yes and no. I mean, as healthy as I can with five kids that all like chicken nuggets and, you know, and French fries. um no i go through phases uh i've you know i was uh you know i'm getting back on back on it but i'm i'm super physical like i you know do jiu-jitsu i just you know i go to the gym i um you know i do a bunch of supplements and you know and peptides and freaking peptides oh yeah dude you what peptides do you take so i do uh a combination and i'm always i'm like a freaking scientist so like i'm not but i work with some really great people that are like we're gonna try this this month and that that month like i mix it up so everything from you know uh something called glow which is a combination of like bpc 157 and like i forget what else is in there but it's really good for um like repairing things in your body it was described as like it's the engine mechanic for your body um and it's really good for your skin too and then there's i do cjc ipamorin which is for um recovery and and strength and yeah and then you know do it you know i mean always mixing it up and there's no downside or there's some people will have can have strange reactions to it um i've never been one of those people um i the downside is i've now okay i'll say that you know cjc ipamolin um some that there is a cancer risk to it to where if you can grow yes if you have cancer cells in your body it will grow them um but i do blood work every three months like i'm really kind of psychotic about it so what do you think about zempick i will say this i think i love that no i i think by and large it's a good thing and i think people need to kind of get off this notion that like oh my fuck zempick this that and the other at the end of the day it is helping people with weight issues, right?

54:31Look at all the insanely crazy health risks from being overweight, right? You've got blood pressure issues, heart issues, cholesterol issues. You can have strokes, diabetes. You look at all the risks of being overweight, and then you look at the risks of being on a GLP-1. They exist for sure. Anyone can turn a medicine into a poison. There are people that do abuse it. There are people that go over the top with it. There are people that give it a bad, you know, a bad reputation. But I have people in my life who have gone on it and they're no longer pre-diabetic. They are. Blood pressure is like totally normal.

55:12And they're not, they're not abusing. They're not going crazy with it. And it's completely changed their lives. And, and at that point you go, all right, risk versus reward. I kind of feel like the reward for it is kind of out outweighing the risk that being said all right if someone is dealing with weight issues I've dealt with weight issues my whole life do you still deal with it yeah absolutely oh my god yeah like I'll yo-yo like 15 20 pounds so it's like I'll you know it's just I just do it's just the way I am um and it's a struggle and it sucks and it's easy for healthy skinny people to sit there and be like these people are crazy this that and the other it's like well you know have you ever been you know 100 pounds overweight you know it's funny like i i wrote a book recently called boys don't cry and and each chapter i titled a different thing and i got to w and i was going to think about what to title and i titled it weight because I also dealt with as soon as I went on camera I suddenly saw myself from different angles I was like wow this but for some reason it was the the hardest thing for me to talk about still now talking to you I I don't know why with men we struggle to talk about weight issue it was so I was so ashamed that I like didn't like the way that I look I thought I was overweight here and I struggled with it so much in my 20s like crazy and it sticks with you yeah oh my god Yeah, it does.

56:43It's crazy. And it's like a hidden secret. Yeah, and it's deeply intimate too because you're like, you know, you see you without clothes on. You go to put a pair of jeans on that two weeks ago fit. Now they don't. And you're like, fuck. And it just like chips away and chips away. But like I said, someone will always find a way to abuse something good and it does happen and it is unfortunate. Can I just say, man, thank you. Thank you. Man, I really like appreciate, I appreciate how open you've been. Your podcast is great. We're going to leave a link to everything in the show description so people can go and listen to it as well.

57:21And look, you've just entertained so many of us for so long and everything you've done. So great to meet you. It's great meeting you too. Thanks for having me. Are you kidding me? Listen, we'd like to end the conversation with eight quick questions. Are you ready for this? Let's do it. Okay, here we go. What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? Existence is pain, but it doesn't suck. Let's freaking go. get that tattooed on me as well. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? You have a good hairline. That is a good one. What scares you most about yourself? Oh, man. What scares me most?

57:59Maybe nothing. No, my default ability to justify things. Explain. What do you mean? Like, I can find a way to justify anything to myself. good one when was the last time you cried oh yesterday what did you cry about

58:20man um guy came up to me in the street he came up to me in the street and he he was a huge fan of my dad's he was a young guy too oh man

58:35that come yeah you know how beautiful that is and by the way listen it's so being vulnerable and being okay to like cry is the greatest thing oh yeah I don't give a shit I can cry everywhere oh what's this one no when was the last time you took a shit that was that what's something you can't let go of I have a teddy bear I've had since I was born you don't I swear to god I do sleep within my bed every night what's the telly word called bath it's original every is he's in every night he is in my bed every night I might not necessarily cuddle him every night but he's in my bed every night what's a guilty pleasure guilty pleasure um ice cream oh god I love ice cream favorite ice cream brand or flavor flavor probably I like strawberry but like a good like strawberry ice cream out of anything you can pick strawberry Strawberry ice cream, but it has to be a specific strawberry.

59:38Like it's got to have like chunks of strawberry. Okay, so it's got to be. Yeah, it can't just be like pink ice cream that they say is strawberry. No, you want like a, yeah. Okay, I get it. Biggest turn off. Biggest turn off. Picky eaters. People that complain about food and are picky about it and like, you know what, this is, can you send that back? No, you're fucking done to me. Biggest turn on. A wicked sense of humor. Like my wife's got such a great sense of humor. Yeah. Your whole family has that as well. other right yeah if you could if you could find a way to laugh about shit and like yeah i mean best thing about your wife her grace yeah my wife's got a lot of grace and just kind of this like flow to her what do you like most about yourself i think what i like most about myself is that's kind of two things like i'm i'm not i'm not afraid of a lot of things i'm like really open to experiencing things but and i guess it kind of falls under this notion that like i'm i know i'm not i'm never done like i know there's always something to kind of improve on and so i i i guess the fear the lack of fear is tied into that of like and i'm not i'm not afraid to keep kind of you keep developing and moving and growing and trying things.

1:00:59Love that. Jack, listen, I've loved everything about this, buddy. I really appreciate it. Thank you. You are just beyond great company. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. That is amazing. Matt, are you kidding me, dude? That was freaking amazing. Tons of fun. Thank you.

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