JAMES WATT: THE TYPO THAT COST ME £50-MILLION

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1:38Get started at linkedin.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply. OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, on deck's loans up to 250 000 help make it happen fast rated a plus by the better business bureau and earning thousands of five-star trust pilot reviews on deck delivers funding you can count on apply in minutes at on deck.com depending on certain loan attributes your business loan may be issued by on deck or celtic bank on deck does not lend in north dakota all loans and amount subject to lender approval hello everyone my name is jamie lang and this is great company

2:23Well, hello, listeners. Hello, listeners. Hello, owls. Owl-lets. Honestly. Straight in. Straight in there with that. Yes, our wonderful listeners. Hi, this is Jamie. I'm Jamie. I'm the host of the show. I say that every single week. And this is my wonderful producer. Jemima. There you are, Jemima. You know, no one knows. No one realises what you look like. What do you mean? So no one ever sees you. Or maybe they do if they go on social... I feel a shame. What a real shame that is. I'm a real feast for the eyes. You are. You are. Not today. I am tired today. Oh, I'm tired today as well because I...

3:04Not for the episode, actually. I'm just a little bit jet-lagged, but that's no case. Oh, fine, fine. I'm a bit hungover. You're a little bit hungover? Get out of here. I am. Shoot me. So you're going to be honest today about things, that means? Yeah, yeah. Because normally when people have had too many drinks, they probably feel like they can be honest a bit more. No, you know, I'm just young, free. Young and free, okay. I'm young and free and I'll do what I want. Okay. You do whatever you want. Whipped my scarf off there. Jemima was wearing a scarf. And now I'm no more wearing a scarf. Today.

3:41Today we have? James Watt. James Watt. Now, James Watt, who's James Watt for people who don't know? So James Watt is an entrepreneur to the sort of truest sense of an entrepreneur. He built a company called BrewDog. Now, if you don't know what BrewDog is, BrewDog is a beer company. It is stocked in all retailers up and down the country, around the world. It is a business, what you call a unicorn. What's that? A unicorn is where a typical business, a startup business, gets a valuation of over a billion really quickly. Is that, I'm assuming that's also really, really rare. It's incredibly rare, hence the saying a unicorn.

4:19Can you name another unicorn? Any other famous ones? A famous unicorn would be something like Apple was probably a unicorn. Uber was probably a unicorn. Okay, so that realm. You're looking in that kind of realm. You're looking at these companies which, to get a company to be valued over a billion is, having run businesses and still run Candy Kittens and we run Jampon and things like that, to run a business of that size and get it up there in the space of 15 years is hugely impressive. The highest valuation was$2 billion in BrewDog. He also has had, and he'll be listening to this in James, I hope you don't mind, he's also had some controversy, some in the press.

5:01There were some complaints made about his business style. And, you know, he's spoken a lot about it, but what I'm really interested to know today I know James. He's an impressive person and so interesting. But I really want to know the person behind the business, who he really is, what makes him tick, his emotion. That's what I want to find out. Yeah. Being totally honest, when you pitched to have James Watt on the show, I was a bit kind of apprehensive because for me, I know James Watt more from the controversy in the papers than who he is. but I am really excited to have him in the studio and find out a little bit more about him and also ask the questions about those controversies as well but I'm also, I think it's going to pose a new challenge in terms of our interviewing in having a guest who there are some maybe more uncomfortable questions to ask and also what I think is interesting, right is that I know this, the press can write loads of different things and actually when you meet someone and understand them and see the way they tick then you can make your own sort of judgment of them which I think is going to be amazing today.

6:10Look, I value that opinion. I think James would also value that opinion. I think today is about, yeah, asking those hard questions. And I think we're going to go, I'm going to go in quite deep. I think hopefully James will open up and be honest about stuff. He has just got engaged to Georgia Tofflow. From Maiden Chelsea. From Maiden Chelsea, who is a close friend of mine. And I'll tell you this. Go on. Toph, as I know her, she was in the jungle. is a very special, wonderful person. And she is engaged to James and it must mean that they are a pretty special couple together, which I'm excited to find out about as well.

6:49Yeah. I think it's going to be a really interesting episode and I am engaged to find out. I'm really intrigued because regardless, like you were saying at the beginning, to do what he's done is like, that's not a normal human. so I'm really intrigued by this person and I have my preconceived ideas but I am ready for them to be changed because I think that's an important thing to be open to I like this also lots of people may not know when the episode finishes they may not know that we come back and chat at the end as well no they might not we have a little ramble a little conversation about how the episode went right at the end of the podcast yeah a post-nap match analysis that's it so if you're interested in that please stick around for that as well and also don't forget to please click that follow or subscribe button because it does wonders for this show.

7:37It does. Okay, you ready? I'm ready. Please enjoy this episode of Great Company with James Watt. Hi, I'm James Watt and I'm actually a terrible company so I have no idea what the hell I'm doing here.

7:52James, welcome to Great Company. I'm going to kick this off in a strange way. Good. Okay, good. I'm glad you like that. I think so many people because we know each other sort of ish we've met a few times and lots of people probably think they know who you are but someone who knows you impeccably well is your new fiance Georgia Tofflow Toph who I know her as and I asked her to send a voice note describing who you are I haven't listened to it but with your permission she said it was okay Are you happy if I play it? I'm delighted if you play it. Okay, here we go. Hi, Jay. I miss you so much. I love that you've asked me for this.

8:39So most people know James for being the crazy, high-octane, tough businessman. Whilst that all might be true, his success and his drive really does know no bounds, take it from me. but getting to know the real James, my James, has been the greatest revelation of my life so far. He is the kindest, most gentle soul I've ever met and quite frankly I can't believe that I get to spend the rest of my life with him. Anyway my darling I will leave you with that. Send my love to him, tell him I miss him already. Big kiss, bye! That was an unexpected start. First time I've ever started a podcast like that how does it make you feel um it's uh much better than the last podcast i started when the first question was so are you a bad boss to work for much much better no it's amazing like george i just kind of came into my life uh just over a year ago it's this amazing kind of ray of sunshine we just met each other at the perfect time and yeah just kind of be with someone that kind of understands like a lot of my world and a lot of what i do and is like super passionate about the same things that i'm into and i just love them spending time with and kind of building life together has been amazing so yeah she's fantastic isn't it amazing when you find someone that um just you get each other and you get each other what you want to do when you're both on the same path in life it's incredible it really enhances your life doesn't it yeah exactly it's like that kind of old business adage to take it back to business but like one plus one if you get it right doesn't equal two it can equals 10 and i think that's definitely the case with courage in myself do you find it tricky because most people when they bring you onto a podcast want to talk to you about things it's about business it's about brew dog it's about um how you started where i find it far more interesting to go behind the curtain and find out who james what is that's what i want to understand and does that make you feel comfortable or uncomfortable no i think it makes me feel comfortable and like i've told the story of so many times there are so many places where people can hear that story and for me so much of like business is about the people behind the businesses and that's what listeners to podcasts or kind of viewers don't usually get to see so yeah i'm really happy to have any type of conversation you want so who is james watt who is james watt um james watt is it's odd i still think of myself as a fisherman so like a fisherman slash business person like that fisherman is just like so deeply ingrained into my identity into my dna my grandfather caught lobsters until he was 70s 90s my dad who I sadly lost this year caught lobsters up until six months six weeks before he he passed away I studied a lot university got a job in a legal office hated it didn't want to spend my life sitting in a cheap suit doing admin so I quit after two weeks and became a North Atlantic fisherman I studied at Nautical College I became a captain and I still feel like so much of who I am is like linked to the amount of time I spent on the ocean and that side of me What is it like on the ocean?

11:45It is an odd mix of really difficult, really challenging, really rewarding as well So we would fish in January, February is our main season The North Atlantic in January is a very, very tough place to make a living It is hard, it is difficult, it is dangerous One of my absolute best friends lost his arm in an accident Another night just north of Shetland, somebody kind of got washed into the sea it's like standing next to him on the deck when it happened like thankfully we managed to get him back but i think like doing difficult things is good for people i think it gives you a sense of kind of resilience a bit of tenacity a kind of steely determination so i i love the time i was on the on the boat so i was out in the lobster boat just a few weeks ago i took georgia out and she helped catch lobsters on a nice sunny day that was uh that was fun but yeah it's just something always i've loved doing and it's something i miss a lot at the moment as well i i was speaking to someone the other day who was talking about, she studied monkeys.

12:44And I found this fascinating. She said that a good mother in this sort of, you know, monkey family, if that is not the scientific term, the monkey family. What is the scientific term? The primate? I don't know what is the primate. But mothers, when they look after their young, they will almost bully them. They will nip at them they will push them they will hit them they won't be very warm or cuddly um to help them survive and when they were too kind to their young it chose showed that the monkeys wouldn't have sort of survival instincts in the wild and so this idea of having to put yourself through some kind of resilience and suffering in order to understand what life is really about is important and there are arguments today suggest that people don't have that i would 100 agree with that and i think a lot of people that's gone on to be insanely successful and built fantastic things i think elon musk's an amazing example of it i think a lot of things that drives him is like coping mechanisms that he had to put in place going through an incredibly tough childhood where he was bullied and had a really kind of tough upbringing in south africa and if you can keep that mentality that you've kind of instilled through a difficult time and apply it to the rest of your life you can sometimes achieve amazing things how was growing up for you um Growing up was interesting.

14:03So tiny, tiny fishing village, northeast of Scotland. About a thousand people lived in the village. My dad was kind of constantly away in the fishing boats. I lived with my mum and we didn't have the best of relationships. Spent a lot of time with my grandparents, a lot of time in the fishing boats. But like small village in northeast Scotland, just an amazing place to grow up. Like complete freedom just to kind of run about. And everyone knew everyone, kind of a great bunch of friends who I'm still close with. So I loved the kind of first 10 years of my life just doing what I wanted in a little fishing village.

14:33You may had a bit of a, was it a stutter? Yeah, I had a speech impediment and like, yeah, took a lot of kind of flack. And it's kind of part of growing up and part of childhood. But yeah, took a bit of flack for a speech impediment for about a decade and a half. But why do you laugh at that? Because I think all kids, we have those moments where, you know, it's tough and things are shit. and I'm probably the same as you but I've tried to unpack my insecurities in whatever way it has and before I would just laugh them off or push them to one side but actually to embrace them and say yeah I was pretty shit is probably better I would say, I don't know Yeah potentially but I think everything's got kind of elements of kind of good and bad and one of the things I think and I think about it in the course of like a business but also in the course of like a life I would say most businesses throughout the course of a business journey get the same amount of good breaks, they get the same amount of bad breaks, they get the same amount of good luck, they get the same amount of bad luck.

15:34And what determines the fantastic companies is how they take advantage of the good luck, but then how they use the setbacks, the kicks in the teeth, the difficult things as not this challenge to get down about, but how can they use this constraint as an opportunity to unlock a different way of thinking, to unlock a level of kind of personal development, to push them forward because if you think that every company is going to get the same amount of bad shakes and bad luck all of a sudden if your mindset is okay how can i use this as a development opportunity to push me forward and then for me that's what differentiates the fantastic companies from lots of fantastic companies if you look at somebody's life i would say the same thing can can hold true so you might get the same amount of bad luck the same amount of things going against you the same amount of kind of heartbreakingly tragic things and you might get the same amount kind of positive things and opportunities and i think what determines where you get to and what determines your destiny is taking advantage of those good things but using the challenging things as a catalyst to get better to push yourself forward to embrace life with all its heartbreak and tragedy and happiness and imperfections and joy and sorrow and all those things kind of wrapped in because over the course of a lifetime of a human or a business you're going to have these kind of peaks and drops in almost any journey so what did you learn from that when you were younger then?

16:55What did I learn from that when I was younger? That people are illogical, irrational. People don't care too much about the feelings of other people. Everyone looks for an opportunity to kind of make themselves feel better in the moment, and if that's through putting someone else down. So I think it gives you an understanding of kind of psychology. I also think it kind of builds up an element of resilience. it's like okay well that was tough I hated it I got through that that's gonna stand me in better stead for kind of other challenges I'm going to have in the in the future and hopefully make me a better person because of it your mum you said you have a tricky relationship you haven't spoken to each other for over 20 years um and she was incredibly tough on you yeah yeah and that must have been tricky growing up because you want to you know you expect love from your parents and if you see your other friends and people getting love and your mum is just being a bit harsh on you you're a bit like what are you doing wrong is that the way to frame it or is a way to frame it how do you frame it i am who i am today and i've been able to build and achieve what i am today because of certain kind of personality traits so like massive childhood inadequacy complex like enjoyed my childhood it was a great childhood there's not like some kind of sob story stuff I felt like an outsider.

18:20I felt like I didn't belong. Kind of small type group of friends, but apart from that, kind of didn't really belong, didn't really fit in. Had the speech impediment, so I was always kind of really shy. Didn't like to speak to anyone because speaking to anyone was an opportunity for them to mock the speech impediment, which almost inevitably happened. So I become quite introverted. Can I keep myself to myself? I had a mum who I think was struggling with her own issues and challenges at the time. And therefore like nothing was ever even close are good enough like 98 % in a test why the fuck did you get 100 it's like and like I was like top of every single class I was in like in secondary school I was like the kind of rise for the smartest kid in school all that and like Scottish school swimming track but like any kind of achievement like no achievement was like ever even close to good enough um like no school report anything even close to good enough so if you've got that kind of outsider kind of inadequacy complex then how do you kind of fix that feeling inside you fix that feeling inside through achieving things and if you've got that drive coming from inside of you it's a hell of a drive to kind of unleash and kind of focus on the business versus other people who may be motivated by other different things so would i change it no and if i was a psychologist i would say probably a large part of what i've done and kind of how driven i am and how hard working i am a because i love it but b because i'm trying to compensate for these things that happened my childhood still so you haven't spoken to your mum for 20 years does that upset you sorry i'm not i'm going really deep with that i'm just so interested james um

19:55it's just kind of how how i've kind of lived and it's just kind of one of these one of these things and like we didn't get on that well and i thought i'd be kind of healthier and happier if that kind of if i didn't have my mom in my in my life which is kind of the decision i've made up until up until now um does it upset me no no not really and i think i'm like so pragmatic with kind of how i look at things and i think like people's heads are kind of wired and all kind of different ways and like it's like it's like i kind of laugh about with george and her relationship as well it's like the amount of times like like the analogy that i give her is a business analogy the analysis that i put on it is a bit like so like if i'm thinking about a relationship with someone it's like she's probably head fed up of me like using the phrase opportunity cost when we're having a discussion about a relationship which is like quite an hour that it's gonna do but like my head is kind of wired in that way so like we've all got a certain amount of hours in the day we've all got a certain amount of focus like young old rich poor successful not successful what determines your destiny is how intelligently you use the hours you've got in a day and some of those can be taken up with emotional things and business things and health things and wellness things So I'm just like quite unusual in terms of kind of how I look at my time and my focus.

21:08And I would say I'm definitely guilty of like stripping emotion out of way too many things. And it was a kind of journey I was on recently. So I'm, and it was not a surprise to anyone who knows me at all, but on the spectrum, so kind of high functioning Asperger's and part of your head being wired that way is the kind of emotional pathways in your brain isn't as developed as they are in other people. So a lot of my analysis and how I look at situations and how I look at things is like on logic, on a kind of business analysis and probably kind of light on that emotional side of the spectrum, which is fantastic in some areas of my life, but kind of challenge in others.

21:47And one of the areas where it's probably fantastic is with DrewDog throughout the entire journey, we did things that were so radically different, that were so unconventional, that were such big risks, but my head is not wired up that emotionally. so I don't emotionally care what people think. So if your head's wired up that way, you're much more willing to take a risk, to take a gamble, to push things because you don't need that kind of sense of belonging or kind of validation or any of those things. I think it was a massive advantage in business, but then more challenging kind of business in other parts of your life if you don't recognize enough the kind of emotions and stuff of other people around about you.

22:23So kind of like everything, there's kind of good sides and bad sides and it's kind of understanding it and how you use it. When you got the diagnosis, was that a light bulb moment um or was it just like okay maybe the way that your brain works you're just like okay there we go we now yeah okay like what do we do to optimize this how do we harness this how can we use this as an advantage like what can i can structure in my day to like because there's like gifts that come along with it as well to kind of maximize on those it is what it is like and again like so pragmatic if i can change something like i will die in a ditch like until my hands are bleeding try to change it if i can't change it i am going to waste not a single ounce of energy or emotion or focus on it and i'm going to try and do something else to kind of try and work around it so can i change that absolutely not can i look to kind of try and find ways to optimize it can i use that can i can i use that understanding to find ways to make myself a better leader a better partner a better dad a better person i think i can can i use that understanding to find ways to make myself more productive i think i can as well so therefore let's kind of use this constraint as an opportunity and see where we get to with it.

23:30Give us some of the risks that you've taken that other people probably wouldn't have taken. Oh my goodness. So when we set up DrewDog, so for the first four years, I was still working full time as captain of an Atlantic fishing boat to supplement the income. Martin was sleeping in the couch in his mum's house. I moved into the spare room in my dad's house. And Martin's your business partner? Yeah, up until the age of 31, I was living in a tiny box spare room in my dad's house. And like, that's the side of entrepreneurship that people don't see. And okay, we've become relatively successful now, which is amazing.

24:00But then like the push and the sacrifice and the effort to do that is like the side of the coin that people just don't see. And always said to my, and we kind of laugh and joke about, and I've said it to the team so many times throughout the journey with TrueDog, this business is going to be one of two things. And it's only going to be one of two things. we're going to crash and burn completely or we're going to be a big global success but that is totally fine because the space in between is absolutely boring and i'm callously indifferent towards this business ending up in that space so let's take massive risks that's where our heart and our sleeve that's put everything on the line for what we believe in time and time and time again let's give us a chance of being a massive global success if not i was delighted in the fishing boat i'll be back there in a heartbeat and we'll just go on about with our with our lives and with our days.

24:45So the history of Dewdog is a history of us taking massive gamble after massive gamble after massive gamble. Do you think because you, and I hope you don't take this as a criticism because I don't think you would, the fact that you were happy to go back to the fishing boat and be a captain there, that was your plan B. And so you had that plan B in the back of your mind. So you were able to take those risks. So some people don't have a plan B, whatever that may be, then maybe the element of risk is far more intimidating. It could be, and I think it depends what you're setting out to do with a business.

25:17So there's so many fantastic businesses that are great lifestyle businesses, that are kind of really good kind of small to medium sized businesses that provide amazing jobs and amazing incomes for the founders. I'm not for a second saying every business should follow the playbook that we followed. But for us, we wanted to do something remarkable in a global scale. We wanted to make our mark in the world of beer. We wanted to put a dent in the universe. We wanted to create something that was kind of really big globally. And we knew setting out with two humans and one dog and no money whatsoever in 2007, the only way to do that was risk.

25:49And I always think that risk is directly proportional to ambition. So the more ambitious you are, the higher levels of risk you need to be prepared to take to give yourself the opportunity to unlock that ambition. So having a huge ambition without a huge appetite for risk, forget it. It's never, never going to work. so like depending on where your ambition is is is kind of yeah linked to risk and for me if you're trying to do something remarkable unless you take substantial risk unless you open yourself up to the real possibility of failure unless you almost kind of stare failure in the eye on a daily basis like you're not going to open yourself up for the kind of possibility to have real success.

26:33So like any hugely successful business, there's been moments when failure was right in the corner. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so many for us. I mean, the first few years, like nobody, like nobody wanted to know. I was selling the beers at the back of my beat of Volkswagen Golf. I was selling the beers at local farmer's markets. We were barely making enough money to keep the lights on. We were sleeping with sacks of malt on the floor. We were filling bottles by hand. and this was kind of back in 2008 we entered some beers in the tesco beer competition i kind of forgot about it six weeks later i got a phone call from tesco and they told us we'd finished first second third and fourth in this tesco beer competition i was like okay really good so it went down this was when tesco headquarters was in cheson just outside london went to tesco headquarters sat there ian target who was the head beer buyer at that time was like James, these beers are fantastic.

27:26Love them. Breath of fresh air in the category. We want to put these four beers in 200 stores nationwide and we can sell 2000 cases a week. I sat there with my best poker face on and didn't mention anything at all about the fact this was two guys and one dog filling bottles by hand. We signed a contract and we were due to start shipping beer at Tesco in four months time. So got back and sat down with Martin. I was like, Martin, what the hell are we going to do? There's no way we can fill this much beer. So Martin spoke to a few equipment suppliers and we put a plan in place and we needed£100 ,000 for a bottling line and we needed£50 ,000 for some fermentation tanks.

28:01Went to the Bank of Scotland. So 2008, for those of us old enough to remember, the global economy is in an absolute tailspin. Credit crunch, banking crisis, like the banks are in pieces. They're being nationalised. Like the worst time in the last 50 years to go and ask the banks for more money. And Bank of Scotland just laughed at us. It was like, James, you're not paying your bank loan back. There's no way we can give you the loan here. undeterred we went to the bank across the street which was hsbc and said to the team at hsbc our bank bank of scotland have just offered us an amazing finance package on a bottling line and fermentation tanks it's worth 150 000 pounds in total here's the terms here's the interest rates but we love hsbc we want to go international and at that time we had no idea what international even meant but it's like we love hsbc we love the international element we're a young up-and-coming company we've got this contract with tesco you want to work with us and for some reason hsbc gave us the money.

28:54So business plan in the first couple of years was make hoppy American style beers and tell lies to banks. We got the equipment in two weeks before the beer was due to go into Tesco. We got the beer on the shelf in Tesco and we never looked back. And how important is to not follow logic when setting up a business, especially something like a beer business, that there are a huge amount of those in the world? So for me, the fact that we set the business up as two 24-year-olds who'd never set up a business before, who didn't know anything about the beer industry, who were completely naive about running a business, was perhaps the strongest asset we had.

29:29Because if we'd known how to do it, we would have been more inclined to follow the conventional playbook. And if you follow the conventional playbook, you can only ever get conventional results. If you do the same as your competition, you're only ever going to get an outcome that's the same or less good as them because they've got scale and you don't have scale. So the fact that we didn't know what the hell we were doing was absolutely amazing. So when I'm speaking to founders and I do a lot of investments, I love the ones that don't have experience of their industry because then they take such a completely fresh perspective of it and find ways to unlock fantastic alternative ways of doing things, which you have to as a startup.

30:04I couldn't agree more. And just to give my little 10 cents, I say again to the team the whole time, we should never follow logic. And actually, I find it, especially in sort of early stage businesses, when people try to bring in experience into a certain situation who have done it before, I'm like, no, I don't think that's a good idea. You know, have mentors, have people that you can speak to potentially, but don't, the business, the one that you feel and the one that you can touch and the one that you're part of, growing that with the mistakes that you're going to do is going to lead you towards that success.

30:37And people don't realise that. Naivety is your biggest weapon. Absolutely. So we actually had a few kind of early stage drinks industry experts who wanted to advise us as a company. I think they saw what we're doing. It looked quite cool. So they offered their services for free. So I thought, okay, this is just going to cost me a few hours of my time. I'll kind of entertain it they told us don't sell at supermarkets supermarkets have been absolutely amazing for us they've been massively impactful for our business but they told us don't sell the supermarkets they're just going to screw you over like they're the best thing ever for a business and for me the important thing is we sell to them on our own terms we keep the margin we keep the pricing structure good but that was terrible advice but that was a conventional wisdom if you're small don't sell supermarkets and then they also told us just pick one international market, put loads of resources there, put full focus there, and just do one international market with deep focus.

31:30And I was like, to hell with that. That sounds stupid. So actually in 2010, with no experience of doing business internationally at all, we opened 20 international markets for our beer. We had beer from Sweden to Norway to Brazil to Colombia to America to Mexico to New Zealand to Australia to Japan to China. And my philosophy was some of these markets are going to work some of these markets are not going to work but i want to find the lightest touch possible way to test them so as opposed to just picking one market based on a hypothesis say france or italy i want to test 20 with a minimal amount of resource behind them and see where we've naturally got some momentum see where we've naturally got some traction so if i am getting back a market hard i'm doing it not based on a hypothesis but i'm doing it based on actual customer behavior and actual dynamics in that market and our beer working well in that market and we've just pushed international so hard from then.

32:21We've been, I think our beer is now in 65 countries. The other thing that I did with international in the early days was like for the first 10 years, I didn't take any time off at all, but I wanted to travel. So I just opened locations and places I wanted to go because it kind of counted in a holiday. Hence, we've got buyers in amazing cities like Tokyo and Berlin. You still own 21 % of the business. In 2017, you sold some of the business. Can you, how much did you sell of the business? I took 50 million pounds from a private equity company for a small part of my share Apparently you lost it Oh my goodness, it was the worst few days of my life So we did the deal and the money was going to be transferred to my bank account 50 million, right?

33:0750 million pounds, yeah And up until then, no money of any consequence to speak of So this is like life-changing, kind of game-changing amount of money it was only a few years before that that i moved out of my dad's tiny spare room that was about half the size of this um between myself and my assistant we gave the partner the wrong bank account details for my bank account we were one digit out and to make it worse my lovely assistant then verbally confirmed the wrong bank account details on the phone and like the next day i was like bethany is the money and i can't wait to see the bank statement you've got this kind of like i I want to see the bank statement.

33:44She puts it up. It's like, why is there just£20 ,000 in this bank account, Bethany? She's like, oh, well, it must be coming the next day. The next day I get to the office. I'm like, okay, let's load up the bank. What's happening? She's like, oh, it'll definitely be in tomorrow. I'm like, okay, okay. Get to the office. The next 20 ,000, there's 20 ,000 in the bank. Like, what's happening? She's like, oh, maybe it's just, no, like, what is happening? Like, what do we need to do here? So we phoned up the bank and we got the bank details and we saw the digits and we were one out. And like just that moment of like you worked 10 years and like the bank were like, oh, we sent it to the bank account that you gave us.

34:23Like there's not much we can do here to help you. And like you're sitting there and like, what the fuck am I going to do? So, and like, and like we keep phoning, we keep phoning. I kind of try a different contact at the bank. And like, there's like James, this was confirmed twice. we're going to try and help you here but if it's gone somewhere and the money's moved on we're going to try and help you here but you need to like just to manage expectations like if it has been moved on from that bank account there could be very little we can do here and sorry to let you know but the bank account that it got sent to by mistake was a bank account in the north of Russia and if you think is there a worse possible place that this money could have gone to than a bank account in the north of Russia and it's like it's such an odd feeling because you go from like celebrating the kind of biggest success i mean that was like my equivalent of like winning 100 meters at the olympics like it's like i always wanted to build a unicorn so that was like a chip on my shoulder bang okay always wanted to be well enough that i didn't need to kind of worry about things but it's like that chip off my shoulder whoa it's like 10 years of work gone um so the banks were speaking to the banks and that later that day said okay we're in contact with the bank we're going to speak to them again in the morning we're kind of see where they get to and the next morning get a phone call okay the money's there we're speaking about them we're getting them back hopefully we'll manage to get it back for you and then two days later the money came back but oh my god to go from the elation of building a billion pound company getting a decent payday to the money being lost and being told by the bank manager hey just to manage expectations there's a chance that you don't see this money again james so like now every time i make a bank transfer i feel like i check the digits about 50 million in times just to make sure they're right fuck yeah fuck yeah fuck and then like jemime was just written saying i feel sick but like my philosophy was like again with my it's so funny you're so particular so meticulous and sort of things and then the most important thing you give the wrong details and it goes to an accountant like the way my head works was like after the third day.

36:31Your poor assistant. She's lovely. It was as much my mistake as it was her mistake. But the way my head works was at the end of the third day was like, okay, just build something again. Fine. Do it again. Okay. And use this as a catalyst to make it even better next time. Dragon send quickly. Yeah. We pitched our little hearts out to the producers and the producers felt that our business wasn't investment worthy, told us we weren't getting to see the dragons that day and sent us back on the road up to Scotland. What's the valuation of BrewDog now? I mean, the highest valuation it was raised funds at was 1.8 billion.

37:12So it would have been a... We were prepared to offer 20 % of the business for£100 ,000. So it would have been a pretty good deal. Quick maths now. What is 20 % of the business, 1.8 billion? What is that? At 1.8 billion... And that valuation is probably at peak. I mean, consumer goods valuations got back. So is it that today? I don't know. At 1.8, that would have probably been about 450 million worth of value for their£100 ,000 invested.

37:41But we weren't TV investment worthy. I still laugh about it.

37:50It's impossible to talk to you without bringing up sort of the controversy that has happened over the time. And I know from running a business, you know, ours is far smaller than you, but you have issues with staff. That's just what happens and you have to sort of learn your way through it. You being so driven towards success, what does that potentially, what are the negatives of that for culture for workplace? It's been a, it's been a massive, massive challenge. So it was back in, I think, 2020, we received an open letter from a bunch of former colleagues who worked for a business saying that we were a toxic place to work for, saying I was a terribly intense boss and I was responsible for this kind of toxic culture within the business.

38:32And it blew up into this absolute media storm. And we've always been so high profile as a company. People love speaking about us. I think there's a kind of tall poppy syndrome in the mix as well. but I think we've got a disproportionate amount of media attention for the thing, which kind of amplified the impact of the thing itself. So at that point... Just quickly, describe tall poppy syndrome. Tall poppy syndrome. So I think a great way to kind of describe it is to kind of compare kind of UK to US. So I think in the US, if you're successful, everyone cheers you on from the sidelines because they're so inculcated with American dream.

39:08They think, that's amazing. Go you, because that can be me. I can do that. In the UK, I think we've got a very different approach to success. And as opposed to that US American dream philosophy, it's like, well, I'm jealous. I'm resentful. You're successful. I'm not successful. Therefore, in my head, you must have cheated or done something wrong to achieve that success. And you're not deserving of the success. Therefore, I'm going to kind of tear that down or kind of chip away at that. So we received this open letter in 2020 from former colleagues, accusing us of kind of all these terrible things in terms of kind of workplace culture.

39:43and it blew up into this kind of media storm. So at that time, given the size of business we are, we had 8 ,000 former colleagues. So hospitality business, a team member stays with us in a hospitality business for about 12 to 14 months. So your staff turnover is quite high. So we had 8 ,000 former colleagues. In any business with the best will in the universe, you're going to have a percentage of your former employees who just want to burn the thing down. You're going to have a percentage of your former employees who are unhappy, who are resentful, who are bitter, who are disgruntled. So in the overall context of 8 ,000 former employees, the ones that signed up to the open letter was like less than 0.3 % of them.

40:25So a tiny percentage of our former colleagues, which is so small. The six people who wrote the open letter and the person who sent it, the person who sent it hadn't worked for us for seven years. The six people who wrote it hadn't worked for us on average for five years. So this was kind of so far in the past as well. The ironic thing for me is that two years before and two years after, on an anonymous independent survey by our current team members, we were voted as one of the Sunday Times best 100 companies to work for. So that is like the anonymous independent reality of our business, that this kind of tiny subset of people who hadn't worked for us for such a long time, who just wanted to burn the whole thing down, managed to get such a kind of disproportionate share of voice.

41:08and like were we always perfect as a company no is any company perfect no um like none of that feedback came from people who actually worked for me as well it was all people who were kind of significantly lower down in the company which is like so far away from reality of like how i am to kind of work with and how i work with my kind of team and my people and culture and like we do so many fantastic things for our team at that time we were doing profit shares real living wages and like taking their carbon footprint making it negative sabbaticals every five years amazing in career and development progression opportunities.

41:40And we just had this small bunch of kind of disgruntled team members who managed to kind of blow this thing up in the storm that was way out of proportion, that was so far away from the reality of what it's like in our business. And then you end up in this kind of perception or reality thing. If people are saying things which you perceive as wrong and other people are saying, well, this is what I felt, what does it do to you? Because especially, you know, we go back to your idea of when you were talking about the way that your brain works and logically you can't work that out because you're saying, hang on a second, that is not my version of the company.

42:13What does it make you feel? I mean, that was tough. I mean, to take that much criticism that publicly, it's tough. It hurts like hell. Got to take it on the chin, got to use it to kind of double down on your resilience and got to use it to learn how to build something better and stronger in the future. And for me, the key thing that I would have done differently the key learning, the key takeaway for me. And next time I build a business of scale, I am 100 % going to do this. The one thing that I could have perhaps done better was manage expectations at the outset of people's employment journey with the company.

42:51Explain that more. So 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, we were like one of the coolest, most hyped companies in the UK, if not Europe. We had this amazing public persona of doing radical, crazy different things. We made beer, which is something and everyone loves and everyone's passionate about. And so many people wanted to work for us. And I think people just saw the fun, the chaos, the beer. And I think they thought coming to work for Roodog would be brainstorming marketing ideas with me, playing table tennis and having a few beers every afternoon when the reality was we were a company that was growing at 100 % plus each year.

43:26We were investing, we were driving hard, but no company growing at 100 % each year is going to be perfect. And I think they expected the perks of a corporate steady state. business with the growth opportunities it comes with a company that's grown 100 % year on year and like those two things just don't exist side by side and like not every company is for everyone not every opportunity is for everyone it takes a certain kind of person a certain type of mindset that wants to work in a company that's grown 100 % year on year any company that grows 100 % year on year by default you live in chaos like chaos is your modus operandi people didn't like that and And again, because we're trying to achieve something remarkable, we want to push people to achieve what the best version of themselves can achieve.

44:10So many things I want to unpack there. Because also when controversy happens in a business that size and everyone knows, I mean, everyone pretty much has heard of BrewDog or tried a BrewDog or knows a BrewDog. As soon as that happens, then when controversy happens, it then follows again. It becomes a news headline. So the next thing that happens and the next thing that happens. And I don't really want to press on the point, but I just think it's important. You had the letter that came out. Then there were a few other sort of controversy throughout. You brought out a drink, which was called the Speedball.

44:46And people got upset as well because it was related to, it's a sort of drug that someone takes. There was that. You put bad language on the website. there was claims of hypocrisy over the World Cup anti-sponsor, lost lager, all that kind of stuff and Sober as a mother advert was banned so you've had all of this controversy do you think because of what happened in that letter then people like to make headlines out of the next things? Yeah, absolutely people need to understand how the media works as well like clicks when it rises so when media circulation is going down like sensationalised headlines that are clickbaity are things that the media want to cover.

45:27So the fact that Iran has always been so high profile, any newspaper that does an article criticising us knows they're going to get a lot of clicks on it, so therefore they're going to get advertising revenue. So there's an incentive. The story of DrewDog launches an amazing beer, opens a great new bar, and has a fantastic year, and employs a thousand new people. Nobody cares. DrewDog controversy, Boston toxic, work culture claims, DrewDog gold can chaos. So those kind of things people click on, so it drives the media. It's the nature of the world that we live in. It's how the media works. It's how the media recently works when their circulation is declining.

46:03I think we've had a really kind of tough time with it in the media, like massively disproportionate to their reality within our company. But it's one of these things that we can't change, we can't impact. We just need to take the knocks on the chin and need to continue our mission of trying to build the best business we can. Any of the decisions that you made, do you regret? Did we always get everything right? Absolutely not. Did we make mistakes along the way? Absolutely. But those mistakes were part of what enabled us to take the risks that made us a fantastic company as well.

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48:11You've mentioned your dad. Yeah. And I'm so sorry to hear that he passed because he, you know, James, I'm speaking for you. He was your best friend. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Hard question. How do you deal with grief? It's so, so tough. and like i was like so incredibly close to my dad and i didn't speak to my mom so like my dad was like double parents who picked up dad and mom picked up best friend picked up mentor kind of picked up hero like he was my hero ever since i was born and he was just so amazing so inspirational like such a fantastic person and like so much of what i've done and built has been down to the kind things that he instilled and inculcated in me and even just like now it's like what does success feel like without being able to share it with my dad what does happiness feel like without being able to share it with my dad what does and it's been insanely happy like the engagement with georgia and like so much love and connection and smiles but then like there's like 15 percent of you like i just want to share this with my dad i wish my dad was part of this so we were just I know so many people can relate because so many people lose a parent and it's incredibly tough but I was just yeah so so close to my dad to lose him so quickly as well and also I lost one of my dearest dearest friends who was my age Dan Bolton to pancreatic cancer in January and he was my sales director but also like such an incredible friend and someone I love spending time with so I lost my dad to the same thing in in June but six weeks before my dad passed away he was catching lobsters in his fishing boats so to go from catching lobsters in the fishing boat to no longer within the space of six weeks was just so fast and it felt like it didn't give you like a good enough opportunity to kind of say goodbye and kind of do all these things that you wanted to do and always try to book trips and do things it just wasn't well enough to it just wasn't well enough to do it so definitely the most difficult thing that I've kind of been through in my life so far by far like every night i dream about him and just just miss him miss him so much and i thought i'd have him with us for like another like 15 20 years at least i thought he was bulletproof and i think everyone sees a bulletproof and like i feel bad for it as well but like i feel so selfish in my dream because like i'm so sad for like all the time like but the person i feel saddest for is me so i feel guilty about feeling like so many other people miss him as well but yeah i just miss him incredibly that made me really emotional yeah yeah i've been been through a lot with my with my with my dad and uh yeah i spoke at his funeral i wanted to speak and uh that was just kind of really really difficult as well and there was like a clock in the back and like i couldn't look at any of my family members any of my friends any of my colleagues in the fishing books if i knew if i did that it would just fall to pieces So I was just like locked in the clock in the back and I managed to speak.

51:08And then after the funeral, it was in this village that I grew up in Gardenstown, which is amazing. I wanted to give him a kind of send off that he would have loved. So we had a 10 piece bagpipe band down the harbour. We had some fireworks. We had these two boats go out and lay our wreath. And then we had kind of food trucks and bits and pieces and the whole village was there. So I tried to give him as good a send off as I could, but just thought he'd be with us for another 20 years. and he was such an amazing grandfather as well. So I feel so bad that I've got my two daughters and then my stepsister's kids that they're going to miss out and like having the best grandfather on the planet, kind of helping them grow up over the next 20 years as well.

51:45So just really sad, really sudden. And then both my dad and Dan to the same disease in the space of six months. It's been a very tough year. Cancer is so cruel. So cruel, so arbitrary and something that so many people listening can relate to because almost everyone has lost someone close to them with cancer. And it's felt so helpless because, like, okay, I've achieved a bit of success. I've got some financial means. And that only translates into something, I think, if you can, like, help people around about you when they need help. And, like, we've tried absolutely everything. But I feel like I let him down in a way as well because I wasn't able to find a doctor, a treatment, a thing that could at least give him a little bit more time with us.

52:31James, you can't look at it like that. There's just no ways because I understand the thought process where you are able to, you're a superhero in your own mind because you can achieve so much. And then when something is out of your control, you just want to try and control it and make it better. And you can't. And look, you can't fix everything. Life is life and it's just so upsetting. And it's beyond us. Funnier moments from the journey. one that kind of highlights my kind of dad's character and wicked sense of humor so it was a week before he passed away and he had an especially bad friday where we thought he was maybe going to pass away on that day and then some of the nights i was staying with him some of the nights i wasn't so um my aunt stayed with him that night his sister he was close with the next morning i got in and all of a sudden he's full of beans and he was like james this is what we're going to do go and get a calendar for the shop we're going to put a calendar on the wall there we're going to put the words dead or alive above it and everyone's going to put a 10 pound bet and tack it on as to what day i'm going to pass away and he passed away seven days after that but even to the end like that was his like his attitude change thank you for sharing dude you speak so amazingly about your dad this incredible can i ask what do you think how do you think grief has changed as a person your outlook what you want going forward do you think i think it just especially with like a head like mine and like i'm so driven towards like build a thing make a difference achieve something and i think that's still like so much of who i am but just like the realization from my dad is like life isn't an infinite game there's only a finite amount of times that we get to

54:28yeah there's only a finite amount of times that we get to spend time with those most important to us there's a finite amount of times that we get to hug our loved ones there's a finite amount of times that we get to kind of kiss our kids on the head good night there's a finite amount of times that we get to have like amazing occasions with those people who are closest to us and I think I'm definitely guilty of being so focused on building things that I can take those occasions for granted and not realize that like hey if it's like there's maybe only like there there's a certain amount a number of times i get to do this and then it's kind of game over like so for everyone if it's spending quality time with your partner if it's spending quality time with your grandmother which i love doing with my grandmother as well if it's spending quality time with your kids if it's having amazing experience with your friends like this is not an infinite game that we're playing and regardless of like young old rich poor successful like everyone gets the same like everyone gets an amount of time and that is the amount of time that they get so just realizing like life isn't an infinite game there's a finite amount of times that we get to do those things that are so important and ultimately more important than building a unicorn or disrupting an industry or doing that like those are the things that really matter so i think the key thing from missing my dad was like wishing that i had and i spent so much time with him but wishing i spent even more time with him and created more moments like that and just making sure that i do that going forward with the people that's most important to me.

55:50James, he sounds like a wonderful man. And what a blueprint to be a dad as well. Yes. Isn't that great? Yes, yes. And like, I'd say, because like I'm devastated, but at the same time, I can't be devastated without being so grateful as well. So being so grateful to have had someone in my life who I love too much, who had such an impact on me, who helped make me who I am, who helped set me up for life, who helps create so many amazing special memories and do so many amazing things. Some people don't get to know their parents, some people have fractious relationships with their parents. So I'm absolutely devastated, but at the same time, just so grateful to have someone so amazing in my life.

56:35I wanted to start the conversation with Eichel, her toff, your fiancé, her version of you, because really, for me, it's about the person behind the business. It's actually, and I think anyone listening to this and seeing this can see how empathetic you are. And I think that hasn't really been in the press that much. That actually, it doesn't sell. But you can, you feel it in your passion, your drive to shake up industries and build something and employ thousands of people, give 4 ,000 people jobs. And you can really feel your heart and your passion, which I really admire. And you did say to me that your vision is life.

57:15if you want to build three unicorns. And for anyone who doesn't know what a unicorn is, it's pretty much a startup business that gets a valuation over a billion. That's what it is. And you're onto your second business venture. Yes. Right now, which is? Which is a business called Social Tip. So I often laugh with Georgia that I've created a business which is successful, is going to put it out of a job, which is quite a fun conversation. But Social Tip takes advantage of everything I've done and learned about marketing, community engagement, brand building over the last two decades and also where i think market and brand building social media is going in the future so social tip is quite simple it exists to help any business turn its customers into its influencers so we want to reward everyday people it doesn't matter if you've got a private account with 500 followers you can earn money for your social media posts and our whole sales pitch to the brand partners and we've got 250 amazing companies signed up from tala to ASOS to Specsavers to Huel to Puregem.

58:13The whole sales pitch is rather than give all of your marketing influencer budget to an influencer with say a million followers who's going to charge you £5 ,000 to do one post, take a small part of that budget to set alongside it and give£5 ,000 to 500 of your customers. Give them£10 each to do 500 posts. It's going to be so authentic, it's going to be so genuine because these are the people that care enough about your business to buy your product or service so we're getting straight amazing ugc at scale we're getting straight buzz we're getting straight hype and we're going to put money back in the pockets of your customers which is going to shorten the distance between you and them and ultimately for me user generated content is so important in terms of the future of market and it cuts through the noise online for a studio content for market and is more and more difficult it was too doggone are the days of the 10 000 pound photo shoot with the perfect condensation it just bounces off people it's ugc that matters so the social tip we want to help the best companies win put money into people's pockets and democratize influence that's amazing your idea my idea my idea and when i had the idea i remember when i had it i wasn't excited about that idea because the idea is inherently simple you buy something you love you post about it in social media you get money into your bank account it's quite a simple idea i wasn't excited about the idea because i thought this is so simple somebody must have done this and like the more that I explored and kind of dove into it the more excited I got when I realized that loads of people are doing this for influencers nobody's doing this for people with 1 ,000 2 ,000 followers nobody's doing this for private accounts but that is the accounts that are going to be most authentic and most genuine because you know your followers you're going to share the things you're passionate about so the more that I dove into it the more excited I got and yeah excited to be building that business now.

59:53Can I invest honestly I think honestly Jason whatever you put your mind to it's you're an incredibly amazing unique person you really are just quickly on when you talk about business and things you put on your linkedin that you got engaged you mentioned it before and you posed it as a business and i think one of the forgive me for mentioning it But one of the titles, I think it was the Daily Mail, say, J's Walt has done the cringiest of all engagement posts. What happened? So not just Daily Mail. So it went everywhere. And I'm used to a bit of controversy. I'm no stranger to a media storm, but this one was very unexpected.

1:00:41So I share so much of my LinkedIn. It's my main social platform that I use. And I shared so much of the journey with my dad through cancer, through losing my dad. It's beautiful. I love the way that you're doing that. It's amazing. So I don't just use LinkedIn for business. And I think with LinkedIn, you want to know about the business, but also the people behind the business. So it was like such an amazing personal update that I decided to share it on LinkedIn. And I also thought it's funny for LinkedIn if I speak about it in the terms of a business deal. So I signed a long term investment, signed a long term contract, lots of opportunities for business and personal growth.

1:01:14I stopped short of putting in some for how I was going to depreciate the value of the engagement ring and can't amortize that over the next 20 years. So that would have maybe been a little step too far. but anyway it was a lovely photo a little bit kind of tongue-in-cheek copy and it went insane it opened up this massive can of worms as should business only be the kind of normal for linkedin should you post about these things and like this became a global news story new york post new zealand herald international business times it went everywhere i got roasted it was like called the most strange worthy post of all time some people loved it and it's just one of these occasions and it's so many occasions in my kind of history where you just need to step back and like the reality is often so far away from the reality is kind of portrayed in the media how can we have over a million comments on twitter hating on me for posting an engagement or linkedin you've just got to kind of laugh and move on james we like to end the episode with some questions are you ready for it yes i am what's the saying or phrase that always makes you smile or cheers you up oh good question it's such a stupid little one but like georgia and i I often say with like Monty, he's a little dog.

1:02:21If he takes something he's not supposed to, it's not for dogs. And I don't know why it's like so stupid and so silly, but I just can't say that and not smile. It's not for dogs. It's not for dogs. Like we say that all the time. It's not for dogs. Best compliment you've ever received? Best compliment was maybe the one that Georgia gave us on the telephone at the start of this podcast. What scares you most about yourself?

1:02:47that i might just end up working so hard that i miss too many important things and important moments and important connections along the way and i think that was a kind of bit of a wake-up call with my dad passing and like i love working i'm obsessed with working and i just need to make sure that i balance that with like making enough special memories in the journey as well what's something you can't let go of? I'm insanely good at holding any type of drudge so I've got a lot of kind of backlog of it among others but yeah definitely not good at letting go of any drudge at all. What's something you'd be embarrassed for people to know you like or want?

1:03:34I think I'm so open with like what I do and kind of how I spend time and what I do, I guess there's nothing on that list, which is a lousy answer. No, it's not a lousy answer. It's a perfect answer. Yeah, kind of straight you open with what I do and again, because I kind of don't have the same emotional threshold to other people if somebody doesn't like or judges me for something then I don't care at all so I just cheer it up. What turns you off? What turns me off? People who want all the things that come along with success without being prepared to do the hard work that it takes to deliver that.

1:04:13What turns you on? Ideas, creativity, intelligence, drive, work ethic, and my fiancé. Great answer. Finally, what do you like most about yourself?

1:04:34I think with most things I've got a kind of radical honesty. which I like. So people can agree with me. They can disagree with me. They can like me. They can not like me. They can buy it in the controversy. They can not buy it in the controversy. But what they're always going to get from me is such a radically honest perspective, in my opinion. That's something I've always done. And it's something I really like about myself, that I'm like, good or bad, I'm going to tell it straight. And that's how we're going to do it. For a bonus one, James, for someone who's listening right now, who admires you, and for what you've built and what you're going to build, If you could give that person one piece of business advice, what would it be?

1:05:16If I could give somebody one piece of business advice, is you've got to find a way to do things differently. So if you're taking on any industry, any challenge, any business that you're launching, you've got to have such a radical point of difference to your competition. Every industry that you're going to go into at the moment is so, so saturated. Unless you've got a really radical point of difference, you're just going to get lost there. So just spend so much time like honing, defining, distilling, like what makes you so different to the competition out there. James, thank you so much. That was unbelievable.

1:05:55Okay, what do you think? I really, really enjoyed that. I thought I really enjoyed that you encouraged us to have him on the show. and making people, podcasts are an amazing way to make people a bit more 3D. When you read about them, you are physically 2D in print. Totally. Whereas in a podcast, you've got the space. It's beyond a social video. It's a long interview to kind of just get a little bit more about the person and be able to inform, like make your own decision. And I think he's a really fascinating character, incredibly ambitious, talented. Yeah. Unusual. Totally. And I, I really enjoyed hearing you ask those questions about controversies.

1:06:41And I found his responses. I found they were interesting and they gave light to a situation which I guess a lot of us only hear one side. So it's always worth hearing both sides. And I came away from that being like, I actually thought that was a really interesting interview. Oh, I love that. See, I mean, that's the whole point of different things. I think what was so interesting about that is that we got behind the businessman, James Watt. And we actually found out what he truly is like. And that story of him going on the boat with his two daughters and finding the notes from his father was the most beautiful thing in the entire world.

1:07:10Yeah. And James is a, to be a, he's a, I think, you know, he's a pretty ruthless businessman. And so to see emotion come out is unbelievable. I hope you guys also enjoyed listening to this. And just want to say again that we love the fact that you listen to this show. We do. Really, really thank you to that. And if you haven't subscribed to the show, please do. Also, you can email us. Great company. at jampoproductions.co.uk or you can slide into our DMs, Great Company Podcast. And listen, we are going to be back next week for another episode, aren't we? We are. Of Great Company.

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