KATE GARRAWAY: I'm No Longer Afraid To Seek Joy & Love After Losing My Husband

0:00Coming up in this episode of Great Company. When Derek, your husband, fell ill, did you know it was going to be as serious? I was told it's live or die. He got into the ambulance and said, you're definitely going to see me again. I didn't know that actually the Derek in the form that got into the ambulance, I wouldn't see again. Did you get to say everything you wanted to say? Hi, I'm Kate Garroway and I'm in great company. It's Kate Garroway!

0:32It's flabbergasting. What were you like as a kid? Did you have a rebellious period? I think it was in my 30s. Get out of here! I started going to festivals and hanging out with musicians. My parents managed to give me the idea that things would always be okay. My children don't feel that. You must stay at home. COVID-19 can be characterised as a pandemic. I knew it was bad because people were dying in their hundreds of thousands. He was very quickly into a coma. He just looked like he was really struggling to breathe. And I said to him, I'm never going to give up. I will keep going until you go.

1:09Your husband falling ill and then he passes away and they don't see everything else. The butterfly effect. Financially, the struggle and the strain and the pressure. I haven't cried enough, probably, Jamie. Thank you. anyone listening now who is dealing also with grief, what would you say to them?

1:32Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang, and this is Great Company.

1:40Guys, welcome back to Great Company. I'm super excited to have you back. Just a quick one. Before we start, I said every single time, and I just would like to ask it again, if you could possibly subscribed to our show. It's completely free. It takes one second to do. And it does us so many things. I cannot tell you keeps allowing us to get the guests that we want keep making the show that you guys like to watch. So if you can do that for us, that would be amazing. We have Kate Garraway on the show today. Kate is a broadcaster. She's a documentary maker. She's recently on the traitors. We go into so many different things about death, grief, how her husband died from COVID, traitors and so much more.

2:17It's one to not miss. I know you're going to love it. So sit back and enjoy this episode of Great Company with Kate Garraway. Hi, I'm Kate Garraway and I'm in Great Company.

2:31You weren't traitors. Oh my God, I know. What an experience. You were fantastic. As what, Jamie, is my question. just as just as just everything you would just you you were you were kind of in a weird sort of way a bit of the glue yeah i think you were kind of yeah and i never watched traitors until the celebrity version and i was hooked it was just such amazing tv and you said on it it feels like the first time that you could play again yeah it was like a license to play so having been having to be in charge for so long and sort of literally managing for a long time Derek's life or death. And then the children and then else and then with work and everything, there's a lot of it that has to be quite serious and quite challenging.

3:24But when you go into something like Celebrity Traces, you'd hand over all control. So they wouldn't even tell you whether it's day or night. Obviously, you haven't got access to internet or phone. Were you good at that? It's only relinquishing all control. Not really. I tried, but I also just jumped into it. I thought, you can't fight this. And that's when you suddenly think, yeah, I'm going to release the child, be silly, play. And what a group of people to be in with. I mean, who wouldn't want to hang out with that gang? So it was great fun. It was a chance to play. And I was also very aware that I am lucky, so lucky in life generally, but very lucky in the fact that to be given the chance to that.

4:10And I think that's why so many people really love this series because it was two things, I think. It was one thing, just a chance to watch something that's a great game that you can kind of play along with, even though when you're watching it, you do know who the traitors are, which is quite a help. But, you know, you go along with it. But also, didn't it feel like a weird sense of old school community again? Yes, 100%, which we're craving. Aren't we? People are saying, I've got to run because I want to catch Trader's tonight because you didn't want to risk missing it because it would be ruined on social media or something, you know?

4:46It's the beginning, I sort of hope, in a very, very small way, of that families, friends, communities coming together to watch something because it was so exciting. And we realised that we want to almost be fed something that we can all sit and communicate over because it's exciting. Did you watch Trader's? It's like, oh my God, don't tell me. It's hilarious. and you have something to do and everybody had a theory and you've got things to talk about other than the weather and football. It was just, it just felt like a lovely thing and I'm so lucky to be part of it. And the great thing about Sobby to Traitors is because it was done in the spring, I could then almost be a part of that joy even though I knew what happened.

5:19Because you knew it. I was watching along at the time and I was watching each episode and saying, oh, you did put that in but you didn't put that in. So it's great. Did you make any unexpected friends? Oh, I mean, I'd like to think they're all my friends. I'm not sure they are. they're probably heartily sick of me. I don't know if they're unexpected because I think you'd all want to be friends with all of them, wouldn't you? I mean, who wants to listen to Stephen Fry? I mean, I felt like every sentence I was becoming better educated because I didn't go to Radley College. I went to Fitzharris School comprehensive.

5:50But no, every sentence is great, cat, oh my God, extraordinary, such a musician. Somebody I definitely wouldn't hang out with any of the world like Alan, obviously ridiculous. See, Imri. I mean, it's bonkers. Joe M, who I have met before and I've interviewed him before. But, you know, what a different energy when you're spending consistent time. Nick Mohamed. I'm going to not name somebody because there wasn't a single person in there that I love. Oh, my God. I love Paloma. I love Nico. Yeah, Nico. The most thing that my kids were excited about was Nico. We love Nico. We love Nico. It's just brilliant.

6:29Yeah, I love Paloma as well. and she and I, we're, you know, we're all friends. We're all still in touch as far as that. Well, they're all still in touch with me. I don't know. I can't speak to each other. But also, you were such a good sport because there was a moment where people were sort of saying, like, you're not making a comment. You're not, you're sitting too on the face. Oh, they were saying, why are you not coming to the table saying, I know it's you? I was like, well, why are you coming to the table saying, I know it's you? And part of that was because they all thought it was me. Every single round table until the one, which is the last round table, because it was different in the final.

7:01The last round table, they all thought it was me. So I survived, what, eight round tables and that was it for the ninth. But the final episode, I wasn't in. But they, yeah, they all thought from day one, it was me. Now, I now, of course, know that it was a traitor stirring it. But a lot of it wasn't, actually. A lot of it wasn't being stirred by them. A lot of it, people just thought, why are you so curious? Why are you asking questions? And that's when it was quite a psychological... Then it became psychological. Because they were very different people and it wasn't their nature to do that, even the other faithfuls.

7:37Do you think, would you say you're a confident person?

7:42No, I don't think I am very confident at all, actually. I think I'm very confident. I think... But you're a journalist and so when you have to have those hard conversations, you can, because I'm interested in that. Is that confidence, though? Is that confidence? Why? Or is that being interested? did see i think it takes a lot of confidence to stand on your own in a room in silence and not care that people are uncomfortable whereas i instantly same i'd be the same yeah i couldn't just stand and say so you end up talking out of a thing or inquiring or chatting i don't know that i'm very confident no i mean maybe because it's interesting the way the reason I ask that is because in your in your sort of everyday role right when you're being a journalist you have to have to ask questions that most people go oh my god how you're asking as hard any questions and it's almost like when you're put into a role in order to do something you can play the role and you can go right I'm in that at the moment but then when it goes back which I'm like in certain other situations I'm such like a people person that I would would hate to make people feel uncomfortable.

8:47But I guess it's the way you wait you hope it's the way you ask it isn't it? And in Round the Round Table, I was asking questions. They were just either lying or not answering them. So, you know, which I guess is the game, to be fair. Now, also, the other thing is, is people were coming at me, you know, because it was the nature of the game. And I think you have two choices then, don't you? You either laugh about it or you get really upset. And I just knew that it was the game. So I was kind of laughing at myself. Everybody was laughing at me, including me. And that's not a bad way to go through life, I don't think.

9:32Where did you grow up? A place called Abingdon in Oxfordshire. My parents still live in the same house, which is fantastic. I went to Radley School, which is... Did you? So close. I know Radley School really well. It was Radley School and Abingdon School with a boys competition, weren't they? I've been in school, of course, produced Radiohead, so I don't know what you guys did. Not much. Produced Andrew Strauss at Cricketers. That's literally it. It's a nice part of the world, actually. It's amazing. It's a beautiful place to grow up. Yeah, lovely. Because you grew up slower. I grew up much slower.

10:04Gosh, yes. Especially than my kids. Yeah. What were you like as a kid? Were you serious, playful? Good question. I think I was very lucky, really. I was definitely a very hard worker. I didn't have any particular talents. None of this will be a surprise. But I always kind of jumped in to do stuff. I ended up doing quite well, you know, in a way. My mum was a teacher. My dad worked the service. That's sort of not rich. But, you know, I learned to play instruments. I went off and was in orchestra and band and did sport. And I did stuff. But nobody ever said, she should go for the Olympics. Or nobody ever said this or that.

10:52So I just kind of threw myself into anything. I did think a lot. I've always thought too much. Did you pick things up easy? Kind of. I also talked quite a lot. I mean, it was weird. My parents are wonderful hoarders. I say wonderful now because they're gradually processing it through. and there's so many reports which says Catherine, because of course I was Catherine at school, Catherine is a huge pleasure to teach. Oh, I do feel she spent a little more time listening and a little less time entertaining the class. Things would go a little better. So there was, obviously I must have been a bit of a, you know, there must have been an element of that.

11:32But yeah, it was a nice, I was very, I do feel I won the kind of ovarian lottery of my parents really because we weren't rich we went on camping holidays but I never felt a sense of real danger I was thinking about this the other day I I always and I've still been given this by my parents I always felt that things were going to be okay and that's because my parents managed to give me the idea that things would always be okay and I'm very aware that Darcy in Billy, my children, don't feel that. I see it particularly in my son because when you're a kid, the worst thing that can happen to you, I think, well, not the worst thing that can happen to you because we know horrific things happen to children everywhere, but in your head, losing a parent is one of the worst things.

12:20So when their dad got sick and then subsequently passed away, they definitely feel like, if I say it'll be fine, they go, you can't say that, mom. You can't say that. So I think the greatest gift my parents gave me that I only realize now that I see that sadly Derek and I can't give to our children is that I always had a sense it could be all right. You know, we got to the campsite late at night. They were struggling to put off the tent. It was just funny. I never worried that the tent wasn't going to be okay because my parents would sort it out. And I feel a lot of children don't feel that about life anymore.

12:58Not just whatever whatever their parents do, they might not have lost a parent. I feel like there's a weird sense that things aren't going to be okay that I was so lucky not to have. Yeah, I was saying this before. I felt like everything was going to be okay. My name was sewn into my jumper. I knew my mum would pick me up from school. I knew that my toothbrush was going to be there. I didn't think anything was going to happen to them ever. You know, everything was always okay. It's going to be all right. And, you know, we might not have. I never got the sense, and I'm sure my mum heavily budgeted, But it never occurred to me that there wouldn't be something to eat.

13:31Yeah. You know what I mean? Never in a million years. And so that sort of baseline of security, I think, is a massive thing for emotional health, isn't it? And I think we're very lucky to have had that because I think there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of kids that don't grow up with that, you know? Were you close with your parents? Yeah, really close, really close. Didn't mean to say I told them everything. What were you doing in Charter's Light Club? I didn't need to know that. Whereas my Darcy was always saying, Darcy, my eldest daughter, particularly tells me everything. But that's amazing you have that.

14:09I love it. Yes. And then sort of I have to say, oh, okay, okay. That's very weird. But I love that and I really encourage that. I've really encouraged that and so did Derek particularly because he felt that sometimes his parents live slightly different lives. And looking back, I probably did. And also, we don't know mobile phones. So I thought I was going to stay with my friend, Dan. He didn't really know what I was doing as long as I got home safely. Did you have a rebellious period? I don't, well, I think it was in my 30s. Get out of here! I think it came quite late. Really? What were we doing in our 30s?

14:44Well, I'd been married before. You've got to tell us everything, come on. I'd been married before and before Derek and I got divorced and I had a weird kind of second adolescence where I started going to festivals and hanging out with musicians, which is so much fun. I mean, it obviously couldn't last. I had to grow up. So it wasn't anything rebellion. I don't think that's rebellion. But no, I didn't really have a rebellious. I mean, I did have a rebellious face. I was like, disgust, extreme politics and things like that. But I never felt the need. And I think I'm lucky. I never felt the need to storm the barricades emotionally or physically.

15:23I think I'm too too sort of like oh also I think actually being really curious means that you sort of think oh that's intriguing I'll go and look at it but you don't feel the need to punch Do you know what I get so funny? My mum right so my mum got divorced as well and she then she got divorced in her late 30s and then so her 40s was her time to be rebellious and she said my mum's very open with everything and she won't mind me saying this She said, you know, before that, she was, you know, my mum didn't drink. She never smoked. She hadn't really had sex with anyone. And then... What if you hadn't really?

16:00More children with my father. It's a bit like being slightly murdered. Yeah. But she wasn't promiscuous, I don't think. Oh, okay. And then in her 40s, she honestly goes like, I couldn't give a shit. I was just like, whatever. We're not going to have much fun. Because she suddenly realised that she had been, she'd held herself back for so long. Not just in life. You know, she went to Amsterdam and said, like, I smoked weed. You know, I did all the things that I hadn't done. I can't obviously condone that kind of thing, Jamie. I'll have to have a word with your mother about that. But it is. But when you go, I suppose what I'm asking is when you go through something, like a divorce, like a, you suddenly realise, okay, wait, life is, wait, hang on a second, what do I do?

16:40Hang on, what do you do? Yeah, and I guess I suppose as I try to sort of calm off, flight or fight following Derek's passing away last year, I suppose I'm hoping that there will be an element of that now for me next. Do you know what I mean? That there will be a chance to, I mean, I may not go and hang out backstage at Glastonbury because I'd look a little bit odd. I think you look great. Thank you, Jane. God bless you. But I think, and actually, maybe that's one of the joys of being lucky enough to grow older. Because, I mean, I always joke about the fact that I'm so old because I'm surrounded by television and radio, very young kids who aren't actually that young.

17:22But actually, that's one of the great joys of being allowed to grow older if you don't lose your life and have something go wrong because you actually have a chance to experience lots of stages, don't you? And shouldn't feel scared of it, really. Where and when did you meet Derek? Okay, so Derek was introduced to me by a girl called Gloria Di Piero. in the old GMTV studios. They had the newsroom on the third floor and the studios were on the fourth floor and they'd constructed a staircase that went out of the building and back in in this tall tower covered in glass. And it faced towards St Paul's Cathedral, this window.

18:02And we came out one day. I think I just got to the point, by the way, of thinking, I can't spend my life hanging around ridiculous with young musicians. I've got to sort myself out. And as we came through the door to go down to the studio, she said, she's from Radford, I do a terrible accent. I'm going to go, oh my God, you and Derek Draper, I'm having an epiphany. I'm having an epiphany. And at that point, the sun rose over St. Paul's. It was positively biblical. So, and I went, okay, who's Derek Draper? And she said, perfect. Because he did have quite a reputation. The fact that I'd never heard of him was really useful to her.

18:42and then later she organized drinks at Claridge's lovely hotel lovely hotel lovely hotel one of my favorites very special now especially because of this lovely hotel for a whole group of people told Derek that this was to arrange to meet me he'd just come back from a university uh retraining as a psychologist in California and was back in London setting up his practice ready to meet me And so he'd Googled what he thought was me, and it was actually weather presenter, Andrea, Andrea McLean. And she's gorgeous. He was terribly excited about this blind date. Anyway, I went not knowing it had been set up, chatting away, lots of drinks, lovely.

19:22And then Gloria went over to Derek and said, what do you think of Kate? And he said, well, she's not showed up. And he said, well, she's over there. And he went, that's not Kate. Anyway, they looked at their phones, and he realized he was horribly disappointed. But then we did end up talking. and I liked him instantly. Why did you like him instantly? He was very intriguing. He was very interesting, very intriguing. He also actually, because he'd been through a rough time and had his own breakdown, I thought he still had quite sad eyes. I thought there's lots going on. Very loud, very chatty, very gregarious.

19:54But he was very interesting and a friend had just broken up with a boyfriend and he was sort of talking to her about that and it was so interesting what he was saying. And I thought, okay, yeah. And by this point, Gloria said, by the way, that's the person I mentioned. I was like, oh, right. So I was thinking, okay, I see why Gloria think we'd be a good fit. But that's interesting because it's interesting you said about the eyes because the eyes portray what the soul feels. Yeah. Really does. And I always look at people's eyes as well when I'm like trying to think. You can sort of see and feel what they, and I'm always interested when you see a story behind someone's eyes.

20:27I get intrigued by that as well. I thought there's a story there. This is interesting. I then, having talked to him, I said, he said, oh, do you know anything about me? And I said, I don't actually. And I said, oh, I'm going to Google you though. And he said, please don't. I said, no, I am now. It's too late. But yes, so that's how we initially met. And then a couple of weeks went by and he'd left a couple of messages, but I couldn't hear them. He was outside. I mean, he's utterly hopeless. But we arranged to meet and then he called me on the day, Jamie, on the day when I was blow dried, fake tan, just putting on the double spanks, right, to say I'm going to have to cancel this because something's come up.

21:14And I was like, okay, sure. And he said, I've forgotten I'm supposed to be serving cheese and wine at the amateur watercolour exhibition at my local church. And having seen some of the escapades, you know, politically and known as Groucho Derek and all those things. Groucho Derek. So he was wild. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But also, but also, but wild and then I actually realised very, very safe and kind, weirdly. Because Groucho is a famous club where the Oasis used to hang out and everyone. Because he used to, he was there sort of in part of the team along with us, Camberman massively and Peter Mandelson in the run-up to the 97 election.

21:57There was a whole, but anyway, his story is a different podcast. But he, so anyway, he said it's come up and I thought, well, this must be some kind of test. This must be a joke because you don't meet somebody, do you? and cancel them for cheese and wine or just not. It just, it seems so incongruous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he said, he said, but if you were interested, you could come along. So his church is Mary's in Primrose Hill that he went to where he lived. And so he, so I said, okay. So I turned up thinking, this is going to be a windup. There'll be a car. We're going to, or a helicopter to Paris.

22:35Click, click. Yeah, something. Something, something. Something's going to change. But no, there he was in a hand-knitted pink jumper serving cheese and wine to the elderly congregation. So I was like, oh, this is actually happening. This is actually. The first thought was, I wish I hadn't worn heels because it's a cobbled floor. And second thought was, this is not going to be dull. And it was a brilliant mix for Derek of absolute sort of, well, very clever, really getting people, understanding people, and also, you know, just sort of bombast and colour as well. So, yeah, that was the first test.

23:14And he just said, I don't know why you think that's odd for years to come, but he obviously did know it was odd. And so, yeah, that's where we went for that. Did you really fancy him? Yes, but I wouldn't, I mean, I would say this in front of him. I wouldn't necessarily, I mean, I wouldn't have picked him off a dating site. It's definitely something, but I've never really picked it out. Who would you have picked off a dating site? Obviously Brad Pitt. Obviously Brad Pitt. What's wrong with you, Jamie? That's not even a question you ask. But, you know, or many others. But, yeah, but don't you find, though, I mean, you're a very handsome young man.

23:50I'm old enough to be your mother, so I can say that without reproach, I hope. But, you know, but actually don't you find, though, that it's not really, don't you find that I do think that, and it's not me that invented this, but I can't remember who said, that great beauty is just like great disfigurement in a way that you don't notice either after a while, particularly if the person isn't appealing in other ways. Do you know what I mean? One million percent. Without a doubt. And I think, I sort of think now relationships, I see it from my relationships. I used to think in relationships where if they were fiery and dramatic and this and that and that and everything, I thought that's what a relationship was.

24:36But actually... It's exhausting. It's exhausting. It's absolutely exhausting. And all you're living off is the adrenaline, aren't you, really? Completely. You're loving the adrenaline hit, but it's just... It's exhausting. And then when I started dating Sophie, my wife, and it was very exciting and things like that, but then Sophie and I were so in love with her, but everything was quite calm. And I thought that was boring at the beginning. I thought, well, I must be in a boring relationship. Right. And then I quickly realized, no, actually being calm and still and just generally just happy and not dramatic and not screaming down the street to one another, even though we have done that.

25:13It made me go, oh, wait, hang on a second. This is what a relationship should be. And she was my best friend. It was wonderful. Yeah, it was amazing. Whereas I sort of had the opposite experience with Derek. And I wonder what your parents are like, but it's not me interviewing you. But my parents, I don't think I've ever heard them row. I've heard them be concerned, but I've never heard them row. Okay, so I was quite fearful of conflict in a relationship, not necessarily in the workplace, either in a war zone or anything else. But I was fearful. It felt quite unsafe to me because my parents had been together all their lives.

25:45So it felt very unsafe to me that when I was around, I remember a breakthrough moment with Derek was, he was really cross with me. There was something, I was late and I was untidy. I don't know, this kind of, you can't possibly imagine that those things would be something that my dear would take to somebody. Yeah, exactly. But anyway, and he was really cross. And I was like, and then I was like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And he was like, yeah, anyway, where are we going to eat? And I was like, oh. And he said, no, no, no, you're allowed to get cross with somebody and tell them what you feel.

26:15And he said, and you must do that to me. I'm, you know, you have to tell me stuff. And I was like, oh, so you're going to have full-blown arguments and it doesn't mean the end. Because everybody I'd ever got out with, I would always finish with me. And I was like, you're going to have an argument. you can discuss it and it's then and so that was my version of your car wow and must have been a huge breakthrough moment and it was so like oh yeah it was it's like oh god I'm actually being held here do you know what that is so you are the second person again I don't know why I've never referenced my mum so much but I was because I'm probably at the same age as her but we were talking about relationships right now and my mum remarried my stepfather right and my stepfather is quite like a...

27:00Remarried? Sorry, she divorced my dad and then remarried to my stepfather. I felt like that was a whole journey that we needed to explore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she said to me, which was so interesting, she said, because I was talking about arguments in relation to you arguing these days, she said, she used to be very passive, didn't want to argue as well, so worried about the fear of them just running away. But with Jonathan, my stepfather, she argued, she suddenly, he pushed, pushed, pushed and she blew up. Right. And he sat there and went... And then she probably thought, I've ruined it. And he went, well done, you spoke your mind.

27:31Great, let's go for dinner. Exactly. And for her, again, the same thing. It was a breakthrough moment. People don't run. You are allowed to voice your opinions. And you're not going to be abandoned. But where does that abandonment come from? If your parents were just so, you're content in your family, so then you have that worry about abandonment. I don't know. I don't know, really, because I never felt abandoned. I can't put it at their call. other than one person um apart from uh Derek passing away which I don't think we can hold him responsible for um everybody is always finished with me and so and I realized what I would do is try and fix and try and fix and try and fix and try and fix and try and fix and try and fix and try and fix and it must have been so infuriating rather than just never really looking and thinking actually this is so not working for me i'm just going to try and make it work until eventually the person was just like this is working and it is almost like it's also probably rather a cruel thing to do actually because you're almost cruel but it's not a very grown-up thing to do because you're pushing the decision to break up onto someone else um and but then that feeds it i don't know i don't know but it was a breakthrough a breakthrough with him because i think so many people listening right and they'll be thinking about relationships right i know there are so many people right now who are going i'm staying in this relationship because i'm trying to fix i'm trying to make it work and sometimes we just have to go i can't make it work i can't not my fault and it's not my fault and stepping away and being like okay yeah and there's could be a that you know and if you're somebody that's interested in people there could be a whole set of explanations of why that person's being that way but but just because you understand why they're behaving that way doesn't mean that you have to fix it or that you need to be there to tolerate it.

29:24And I think sometimes I kind of being very interested in the way people's minds work and often having solutions to things was trying to solve it. But actually it's like, no, actually let's just decide that that's their journey and, you know, and deal with it that way.

29:49you have done three just incredible documentaries about Derek yeah um and I imagine you have said the story over in your head and over to other people and just everything but I just know there are so many people now who are listening who just would like to hear from your own words When Derek fell ill, did you know it was going to be as serious? So he was unwell and taken into hospital right back to the very beginning of COVID, obviously before we had vaccinations, but also before we even had easy tests. So it was in that really first phase just before lockdown, the very first lockdown. and so yeah I knew it's bad because people were dying there hundreds of thousands you know what I mean from COVID um and so that was absolutely a flight or fight situation so you weren't thinking because I imagine and I don't I think in my head I'd go well it's gonna be fine why wouldn't it be fine of course it's well I I thought it won't happen to him yes of course but then I also thought why wouldn't it you know why am I special why am I special not to deal with what mothers, fathers, sons, you know, daughters all over the country are having to deal with.

31:05So, and also I was told it's live or die. And so I went into solution mode and general mode and right, right, let's do everything we can, everything we can, because he was very quickly into a coma after being into hospital. I guess what I didn't realize was is that, And I don't think anybody did at the time. So I thought COVID, and I think we all approached COVID at the time as binary, you either lived or died. And it was so horrific because so many were dying before they could even get to hospital. And there was no medicine. There was not even ways to mitigate it at that point. So the medical profession did everything they could with a brand new virus that was a killer.

31:47but I thought it was binary what became extraordinary to manage is that when he began to come out when when they tried to bring him out of the coma sort of uh eight to ten months later he suddenly couldn't and we realized there was a third option which is covid either killed you or people came back to work feeling exhausted and a bit down but otherwise fine but actually life will be changed forever and you still lived so um i don't think people because we all thought it was about the lungs didn't we had a cough cold lung it was acute respiratory killing people what we didn't understand in 2020 was that it's inflammation that runs your body so liver kidneys lungs brain um every cell skin everything um was damp was damaged by the virus and to a greater all eticist grief we now know it now because we know there are people millions of people with long COVID sometimes they just feel a little bit out of breath or sometimes they feel they have incredible fatigue and some people are in wheelchairs and not walking still and they contact me all the time so that I didn't know when he got into the ambulance and said you're definitely going to see me again I didn't know that actually the Derek in the form that got into the ambulance I wouldn't see again and obviously neither did he but actually so much of Derek came back we always felt incredibly fortunate that we I had the chance to to be a carer and to care for him it's a wonderful wonderful honor it's tough as heck for both of us involved and obviously family and his parents and all people that loved him but um but actually we were so I always felt incredibly lucky incredibly lucky that I had that five years and actually at the point when he passed away um he was doing better than he ever had he nine days before just got up and walked and was speaking better than before but the damage the doctor said the end what they call end organ damage so the key organ damage was was so great that the despite the incredible life force having even after that final heart attack though he still came back and was able to hear he couldn't speak after that but was able to um hear and respond to us by squeezing our hands and it was a big life force and I hope that's a comfort to the children because they definitely saw which I think was true that he wanted to be around for his family wider family and smaller family I hope that's a comfort that it was not his choice not to be with them you know so heartbreaking to still lose him even after he feels like he was recovering oh absolutely absolutely absolutely and also the strange thing is his last year i was again in the adrenaline mode definitely really very focused on the children very focused on what do we do next very focused on um the huge debts that are accrued and let's not start on the care system but um it is carer's rights day again coming up and you know anyway let's not start on it So very focused on financially getting the family on its feet.

35:03And strangely, this year, I've really, I think, had the chance, I'm going to look at it that way rather than regret it, to start really missing the Derek before 2020. because everything was really about finding a new love between us in the state he was in, that it's been nice to remember some of the other things pre-damage, I think. So that's a sort of, and it makes me much sadder than last year in a way because I haven't got the life, sort of the padding of adrenaline. But also I think it's probably really good to be able to celebrate that. Firstly, thank you, honestly, for sharing because there is something when you lose somebody slowly.

35:48Yeah. And especially, it's something, I think there's lots of different ways. Something harder almost sometimes. I don't know, and I don't want to say that. I don't know, the weird thing is that it's strange because I don't think there was, we didn't know the end of the story. And I often wonder if that was better or worse. I think it was better that we didn't because every day felt like there was a chance to get better And we were told by the medical profession that he wasn't going to get worse, that this was the worst it was going to be and we could see improvements. So I wonder if that is wonderful.

36:22I think that is a gift. Whereas I think some might say, and I've had friends and relatives that have died of things where you know the end of the story and you're fighting against it and you're prolonging the time. But maybe there is some peace in that preparation. I don't think there's a better or worse really I think it's just everybody listening to you will have something in their life that's like that and life is just it is to quote Roland Keating a rollercoaster Jamie if I can be flippant but isn't it though and we enjoy we have to just enjoy all the little things along the way as well as the big Did you get to say everything you wanted to say to Derek?

37:11Yes. And we had three or four weeks where he went towards the end where we were. The challenge was so many times the doctor says he's not going to come back. He's not going to get out of this. He's not going to come out of the first comer. He's not going to survive sepsis. He's not going to survive all the other things that came down the line that made him return to hospital. and every time he did that actually part of the responsibility I felt very strongly at the time was that helped them to understand the children because I said oh say dad's in hospital and the doctor's saying that this is not looking it's in a bad way and they were like okay cool we'll go and see him because they didn't believe it you know they didn't believe that it was going to happen but yeah I absolutely had the chance to say everything and we had a moment when um we were on her own in the hospital room because we were there throughout the end um and I was lucky enough to be there for the last 48 hours until he finally did pass away which is really special I think and um and be able to hold his hand and continue to talk because one of the last things that goes and comes back um in any state of unconsciousness of home is hearing so even the most cynical doctor was say don't stop talking because we won't know if he doesn't make it whether he could hear you and if he comes back it's no problem that he was hearing you so we were talking the whole time talking about music and um and that was lovely but I remember once when I really felt like he was I don't know he just looked like he was really struggling to breathe and by this point the breathing was assisted and he just looked I don't know I just had a moment I thought you look so beaten up darling and I said look if you can't do this anymore we know you will be fine and he did for a second stop breathing and I was thinking and I was like this is okay this is okay okay and then he took this most enormous inguff of breath and I said okay then we'll keep going so I and I said to him I'm never going to give up so don't worry about that I will keep going until you go don't worry I will you know I will never let that go on but if you need to go just go so it was I felt it was really important to be able to say that to him because you know you don't know when someone's been very ill for a long time whether you're keeping them going for yourself But when he could speak and when he was fine before the last heart attack, there was no question that he wanted to get better, never mind be around.

40:03But we were very precious, very precious, I think, that we had that. And when you think of all the people, not only did we have five years of so many moments of joy and laughter when things were much better before the end, that were just wonderful, real classic Derek moments. The humor was still there. It was all there. think how many people go into hospital every day and don't get that chance and how many people during COVID knew it was going to happen and couldn't visit and didn't get that chance so we are very fortunate but it does remind you I'll wipe my eyes a minute but it does remind you that actually you know it's a cliche but my god cliches are true that you just don't know where the last moment is so never wait to say I love you never wait to say anything give me a hug never wait to say I'm sorry it's I'm sorry never wait to say I don't say it enough but you're amazing at that you just you just have to don't we and we all forget but yeah yeah hey I mean honestly it's um and it's it's such a the way that you're almost in that moment so think about other people as well because I don't think I would be firstly in that situation I don't know if I I would just probably be very angry I think I'd find it yeah I think I would I think I would find it really unfair I don't know if I'm just trying to whenever you say that I think about Sophie right oh my god and I can't yeah I can't even yeah man if it you know I just um yeah it would be horrendous and then as you said the financial people what people people see right Unless they watch your incredible documentaries or they really look into it.

41:51They see your husband falling ill and then he passes away. And they don't see everything else. The butterfly effect of everything around it. Financially, the struggle and the strain and the pressure. The amount of money you have to be paying and doing and looking after the kids. Juggling your job. Getting up early in the morning. Still doing it. Then caring. I mean, it is, I don't understand how you could breathe. Well, there are people doing it, millions of them every day. There are millions of them every day. I know, I know. And they're not lucky enough to be talking to you about it. And that's why I feel a big responsibility now because...

42:29Is that why you did the documentary, do you think, as well? Because you wanted to... Yeah, absolutely. So the first documentary was in the height of COVID, wasn't it? At the very beginning. And it started because Derek was in a coma and the only way to communicate because we weren't allowed to visit was via FaceTime and the doctors would say he couldn't speak. He was in the coma, but the doctors would say talk and talk and then he began to just open his eyes and start to track. And they said, right, we need you to tell us if you see any reaction to what you're saying that's different because we didn't know him before.

43:03So I started filming that because when I was speaking to him, it was such an emotional thing. I couldn't really be scientific about observing. and they would watch it back myself. And so I'd collated months and months and months of footage of different things and stuff that we did and also the children talking to him. So then they said, we'd like to make a documentary with you when I was approached to. And I said, first of all, I'll have to have complete editorial control because if you're going to come and be with me in this really difficult situation, I've got to focus on Derek and the children.

43:36I can't be thinking, what am I saying? Is it correct? so I just have to be completely open yeah and then well then we'll sit down and then we'll decide what is inappropriate to go in you know what is too intrusive on Derek what's doing you know where the limit is for his privacy because I've got a responsibility to him so that was the first thing but also it was I think a useful thing and Derek luckily because he lived was the one that chose to make the third one because the first one was really the pandemic and Derek is the unfortunate sort of representative of lots of things people are going through.

44:16And then the second one was really my journey into the extraordinary nature of the care system we have and how it doesn't catch you where you fall despite being filled with angels working in it. And the third one was Derek's. And he suddenly said to me one day, because it was quite patchy, the speech. It was a long time, unlike before, the journey between brain and mouth. He just said, are we making another documentary? And I just said, well, I hadn't thought of it. Why do you want to? And he said, yes. And so this was the one in his voice with me as a backseat. Unfortunately, he passed away in the middle of it, so we had to finish it with half him and then complete it, you know, afterwards.

45:06with more of me than probably anybody would have wanted and the children and everything else. But I just felt like he wanted to say a lot about the healthcare system, about what it was, and so we gave him that journey. So, yeah, that was why they became made. And then, of course, as soon as the first one... Well, the thing about it is, Jamie, is the reaction from people saying thank you for telling our story. You know, I'm on my own 24 hours a day with my mother. I'm utterly isolated with this. Thank you for saying what it's like. It was so overwhelming and so wonderful. And it made me realize that I was very lucky because without that, I didn't connect it up.

45:51And actually, I have started something, which is my gift back, bizarrely. I didn't think about that, called The Sharing Life. Have you heard about this? Yes, yes, of course. I mentioned it. Yeah, and I've just started that because I was very aware that I was getting messages which is so helpful for me on social media or on email, on handwritten beautiful notes. And often it's the sort of message from a stranger who's lived the experience that's in the right place and in the right moment fills a hole that the experts can't. So we're just getting it off the ground. And I'm hoping that sort of, now that I know longer, sadly for me, I'm a carer for Derek.

46:28I don't want to abandon that and then that will be for carers but also other problems you know if you've cared for somebody some people care for people for 15, 20 years their life is based around it and then they die and then there's a grief because then there's a loss of your purpose and then there's a complication of grief there's loss of the person that they're grieving and there's a whole so there's so much that we want that we're talking about so it would be lovely if you could get that message out in your podcast actually 100 % totally free to sign up and we'll put the link in our show description as well It would be amazing.

46:59Are you kidding me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Without a doubt we'll do that. Yeah, because it just hopefully will give people some of the benefits. People say, oh, it must have been awful doing that on telly. There was lots of things that were quite challenging, yes. But actually one of the things was it eased the utter isolation because people were able to get in touch with me because I was. So hopefully this will provide something of that for everybody else. Your community that you're setting up, Sharing Life, it's where people can go on completely for free and they can connect with other people, right?

47:31So the sharing.life is the thing to search for. We are just join up. We're building the platform, so it has a lot of things. But at the moment, it's about people sharing stories and then with some expert help as well to be careful, people are able to share advice for each other on there. So hopefully that connection can breed and then people will be able to choose what they'd like the community to talk about because we need a place that isn't toxic to be able to share, don't we? Anyone listening now who is dealing also with grief, what would you say to them? I'd say it's not linear. I'd say that it's about sort of understanding it will feel differently on different days.

48:22Not being scared to smile and laugh. That's not disloyalty. Not being scared to allow joy in because you know they'd want that. Seek it out. Seek it out. Because you feel guilty, don't you? Of course, you don't want to. I mean, luckily with him, he would say, and it was part of our married life together, that he embraced silliness and joy because he said, that's why comedians are often quite dark because it's the offset of, it's a way of our personality, a way we manage deep feelings. So I know he'd approve of silliness and he definitely, he had a stone next to his bed. When he was standing in California, he bought some stones with different words on and he took out the one that said joy and it's still there next to our bed.

49:13And he was always seeking joy. So I'm lucky in that, but not everybody might feel that. But I think don't be afraid to seek out joy. Don't be afraid to laugh. But also know that just because you've had a great day doesn't mean to say the next one won't be hard. That's the journey. I've got a big question to ask. Why do you leave the teabag in your tea? Well, because I'm lucky enough that lots of people sometimes make me tea, right? Okay. Okay? So it is rarely too weak. but if you leave the tea bag in, you've got an opportunity to do it. Also, I feel like I'm constantly in a rush. And you know that whole, I don't know who said it first, but it's a very good piece of advice.

49:56Never pass a toilet without using it. I'm the same of tea. I'm the same with tea. Never say no to a cup of tea because you don't know when the next one's coming from. That's great advice. I know, but if you see a toilet within your shop or a pub, use it. Use it because it could be hours before you see another one. Do you drink coffee? I used to drink coffee way too much. In the days before Good Morning Britain, there was a show called Daybreak that people don't talk about a lot now. And I was entertainment editor on that and then ended up doing a lot of the hosting in the morning as well. And so, and I was, it was crazy.

50:32It was like up at three and then doing late nights as entertainment editor and I drank so much coffee. The one day in the dressing room, I couldn't get up. I was so freaked. I had come off air. I was so over caffeinated and so much adrenaline. Like anxiety and adrenaline. It was just like I'd just gone too crazy. So I thought, right, this isn't great. This is not a good place to be. I feel like even I'm getting the message that this is not good. And actually, I went and had some tests. And I was massively, massively vitamin D deficient. And we worked out that I was getting up early in the dark.

51:08I was working all day, mainly inside. And then I was working at night. And I just, so vitamin D, so I had like about six months of ultra high vitamin D and it evened out. And at that point, I thought, right, this is a good sign to not drink coffee. Still drink notes of tea, which has got loads of caffeine in, but I do try not to drink coffee. I still love the smell of it, though. My God, you didn't have enough vitamin D. Yeah, but to be honest, Jamie, most people in this country are very low on vitamin D. I remember sitting next to a plastic surgeon at a charity thing, obviously deeply excited about this.

51:39I mean, on every level. So I said, what would be the thing that you would do? Hoping he'd say, you don't need any work, Kate. He said, well, there's obviously work to be done like that, roughly in front of my face. Did he do that? Yeah, he did that. He said, there's obviously work to be done. However, the biggest thing I tell everybody is everybody should be taking vitamin D supplements. Women particularly, because we've all got much more sensible and makeup has got very good at having a lot of high factor in, which is great for skin and stuff. But actually, most of us are vitamin D deficient.

52:14You only actually need to be exposed flesh for about 15 minutes to a half an hour a day. And that works. And that's enough. But you can very easily not get that, especially if you've got makeup on. But do you get, I think I get something called seasonal affective disorder. Sad, S-A-D. Yeah, I think people do. Although weirdly, I think we all do a little bit, don't we? I think February is one of the worst months. February is shocking. Isn't it? We're all broke from Christmas. Horribly long period till your December pay from January. And then it all just goes on everything you bought for Christmas.

52:52And then you haven't quite got, maybe you're lucky to have a snowdrop, but you haven't got the daffodils and the croquant and all that coming up. And it feels like springs along way away. But also, weirdly, I actually feel more now that actually being in nature, whether it's bear trees or not, is massive for me. It's the best, right? But also I do feel as though you can sort of talk yourself into and out of SAD, of SAD. Because today it was a really grim morning, wasn't it? There was loads of rain and sleep. And I just thought, actually, do you know what? Everything is sort of in my crazy juggling life, slightly in place.

53:31And so I'm just going to enjoy the cold on my face. And it's hard to explain. But I think sometimes you can embrace bad weather and dark skies if mentally you've got yourself in the right place. I think if mentally you're not in the right place, then SAD, you almost don't recognize how much it's affecting you. But Kate, I also think you're right in that I think you can also mentally sometimes. Like I remember when I used to have, it's very easy metaphorically to think tomorrow is going to be a bad day. And we can go, tomorrow is going to be a bad day. But if you just say to yourself, it's going to be a good day.

54:08It's going to be good. Even if you don't believe it, feel it. But if you do that in that constant narrative sometimes, it can lend you to start thinking. You know, there's this amazing thing which I saw, right? So if I was, okay, so if I was going to say to you, so close your eyes for a second. Okay. So close your eyes for a second. I haven't blended my eyeshadows, so don't judge me. Okay. And then open your eyes. Okay. And look for everything that is brown in the room. Look for everything that is brown in the room. Okay. So you try and find everything that's brown. You're seeing that everything's brown.

54:37Okay, right. Now, how many things were red? Don't spot it. You don't spot it. But now if you look around, how much of the room is red? Can you spot different red things? Loads. Exactly. And the point is, is that sometimes in life, when we're looking for something, we'll find it, right? And when we're not looking for it, we won't find it. And that is mood, that's emotions, that's everything. And sometimes we have to, if we think negatively, if we think tomorrow is going to be a bad day, Most likely it probably is going to be a bad day. But sometimes we have to try and look for those good things.

55:08Absolutely. I used to call it the new car syndrome. If you buy a new car or if your dad got a new car when you were little, suddenly you'd see exactly the same car everywhere and you'd never even thought of it before. As soon as you're conscious of something. I mean, one of the fascinating things I think about the brain, which is fascinating is the wrong word, but one of the tragedies of Derek being affected by COVID, my husband in the way he was, is that his brain was everything. to him and he'd chosen to go and be trained as a psychologist as well. So he was even more conscious and one of the many conversations we have would be about the brain.

55:43And one of the things that was fascinating is I had to really learn as much as I could to help support him post the damage to his whole body, including the brain. And I found that something that, there's so much you can read, isn't there? But something that really struck a chord with me is your brain sort of isn't your friend. Because I kept on saying, oh, the brain has been Derek's friend all his life and now he says it, he used to tell me it's now my worst enemy. It's not actually. What I realized is, is the brain is a survival computer, right? So when we were in the caves, you know, obviously this is all slightly fantasy, but when we were in caves and a saber-toothed tiger came to the door, we had two choices.

56:30we had to run or fight, flight or fight, right? And so our brain is hardwired to keep us alive. Only that doesn't give a damn about our happiness, doesn't give a damn about our joy. It's programmed to make us survive. So we see danger and adrenaline shoots. In our modern world, we can see news reports, for instance, often it's me delivering them, of a terrible, terrible earthquake the other side of the world. Our brain reacts as if the earthquake was at the front of our cave. We have a massive shuttle of adrenaline and stress. But actually, we can do nothing to help those poor people. And really, what our brain wants us to do is to shut that out.

57:11Because if you tell your brain all the time, which the modern world does constantly, be on alert, be on alert, be on alert, be on alert. It's absolutely overloaded. So you have to retrain your brain to look for joy. I mean, it's a classic way we sell newspaper headlines, isn't it? A brilliantly beautiful headline on a front page, there's been no trouble today, is not going to make you notice, see and buy. So our whole commercial world basically is based on tapping into the fact that our computer is designed to be programmed for danger. So when I was feeling quite overwhelmed sometimes in the first period of Derek Livy or dying, and later on just managing the care of keeping him alive and being the carer, I had to really talk myself into finding space.

58:01And I would kind of look at the sky and think about the infinitesimal nature of the universe and think actually, you know, the cells, everything, the space is in our body. I don't think I've ever done it if you have to get up early in the morning, obviously I do this probably more than you, that you can look at the clock and think, God, I've only got three hours and you totally panic about it. But I go, actually, I've got exactly the amount of sleep I need. Otherwise this day would not have been the day that it was meant to be. So just relax and sleep. And then I wake up okay. Probably not as good as I would be with eight hours.

58:35So I've just consciously all the time trying to program myself for joy and happiness and try and put that into my brain. Because I did live for six years on high alert. And I've got to try and offset that. Would you ever at some point now that you're sort of back in maybe a bit more and you feel like you can breathe again, would you ever think about dating again? Well, I wouldn't like to think that I never had romantic love in my life ever again. I think that would be rather a sad way to go through life, wouldn't it? But no, I'm not there yet. I don't know if anybody would want me, Jamie. Okay, listen.

59:18Go and talk to your mates. Find out if any of their dads are single. That's your task. That's your task, Jamie. Would you ever use a dating app? No. You wouldn't? Of course not. I've never used a dating app. I never really dated. Did you not? I don't think I've ever really dated because everybody keeps asking me about dating. So I don't think I've ever dated in the way that you guys see as dating. I think it's a deeply uncomfortable thing to do, to go meet somebody you've never met. I just end up interviewing them. I'm going to go to one of the H-ways. It's the whole thing. It's just, I don't know.

59:55So I think I'm the old school where you lived life, did things you love and met people along the way. I don't know. But maybe that doesn't happen anymore.

1:00:10Kate, you're so brilliant. Honestly, you are just beyond amazing. And truly, the way that you speak so eloquently and when you talk about Derek and your family, there's so much love and just so much. I know people listening to this and watching this will just connect with you. And that's why the documentary is so nice. But it truly is 100 % because the amount of people you must have helped and given a voice for is just endless. So I just, and I - They've helped me. Yeah, and I can't imagine the pain. You know, the pain I cannot imagine. And being brave enough to put yourself out there and talk about it and document it and say, look, this is what's happening to me and me and my family and us.

1:00:54But I know it's happening to millions of other people. So I'm going to be that subject to show what happens. Amazing, truly amazing. It's really important. So thank you. Well, thank you for allowing me to waffle on the soda. Are you kidding me? It's great fun. Thank you. Okay, we'd like to end the conversation with eight questions. Oh, God, I haven't looked at these. It doesn't matter, that's all you like. Okay, all right, God. Here we go, you ready? What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? Oh, God.

1:01:22I don't know. I don't know. I don't think I have one phrase. I guess one phrase I always think of is just like, I think it's a bit of a seize the moment rather than seize the day. If I'm feeling a bit blue, I just think seize the moment. Run a bath. Yes. Close your eyes for five seconds. Look at a flower. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? Oh, my gosh. I don't know. What's a best compliment? As Brits, we hate this. Honestly, Americans are like, that I am brilliant.

1:02:02To be honest, any compliment is a great compliment, I think. Don't you think? Especially if it's a genuinely well-meant compliment rather than somebody just trying to, you know, work you. That was a good answer. What scares you most about yourself? I don't know that. Well, the thing is, I think I do scare other people. I think I'm quite a lot for people. but it doesn't scare me because I'm inside my head do you think you are? I don't think you're a lot of other people yeah maybe not maybe when maybe I don't are you scared Jamie? well I think I'm not scared at all of you but I think

1:02:43I'm a man you went all butch as you responded to that but I suppose I mean I think there's a freedom from fear that comes with grief, I imagine as well, right? Oh, I'm scared of a lot of things. I don't think there's anything particularly that scares me about me. I guess everybody worries, don't they, about getting older and not feeling as strong and not feeling like it. Sometimes, like yours, my mind doesn't stop in that sometimes. I wish I could just... Yeah, shut it down. But then you can practice. That's solvable. I always think life or death is the big one and everything else is kind of admin.

1:03:30Everything else you can tackle, can't you? You know, let's, so, and let's just start from, okay, alive at the moment, what do we need to do next? And that's how I had to live for a long time with Derek. You know, the doctors would say, and literally the first question I ask is, is he alive? And if they said yes, I was like, okay, tell me then what actually is going on. And then feel like after that, it's kind of admin. So that's a bit of admin for you. That is amazing. I love that. But the other quote that you said to me recently from you was that the brain is the galaxy that we need to explore more.

1:04:03Yeah, the brain is so fascinating. You know, we haven't quite, I don't think, gone to the deepest ocean. We certainly haven't gone into space. But looking in, that is the galaxy that we really need to explore. We can't see it. We can't even detect brain cells in there. We could only see a fraction of them, even though we now have the technology to see billions. And the brain is the galaxy that we need to explore, yeah. Apart from today, when was the last time you cried?

1:04:35I haven't cried enough, probably, Jamie, about all that I've been through. I think probably a bit of sobbing needs to be done. I don't really let it out. Why don't you let it out? not there yet to have the space to do it without things falling apart a little bit if you know what I mean I've got to keep going but I cry a lot about other things I mean Christmas ads I mean for heaven's sake I know what on earth that John Lewis one I don't even know what the John Lewis one's about I don't even know what it's about I don't know but it's just about a dad and there's a dad and a child and you're like I know I watched the Halifax one where they lose she lost the scarf on the bus back in the day I know By the way.

1:05:15By the scarf. It's gorgeous. They're all gorgeous. So, you know, at Christmas, you've got kids. We're all, you know, a hair trigger, aren't we? So I cry a lot anyway. I cry at films. I cry at movies. I am a blubber. I think you should give yourself space to allow yourself to cry at some point. I reckon that sometimes you cry more about things you wouldn't cry about. Because it's an excuse. Because that's your body and your way of letting it out. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. What's something you can't let go of? pretty much everything. I'm a horrific hoarder. I mean, so horrific. And I'm really, really trying.

1:05:52So I don't let go. Well, I mean, I'm not the source of a Channel 5 documentary, Jamie. We're not hard to the ceiling, but I'm a massive hoarder. No, no, I find it hard to let go. So I'm trying to let things go because, you know, you just have to. So there's a lot that I don't let go. I mean, weirdly, I do let go of being cross with people. I don't get it. I'm quite good at that. I'm really good at that, yeah. Do you remember, though? Do you forget? Or I go, oh, whatever. But I kind of go, like, I sort of remember. Yeah, it takes a lot to make me angry. So therefore, yeah, I do remember. But yeah, it's not that I can't let things go in an argument at all.

1:06:32But yeah, no, in terms of stuff, I mean, you know, I've arrived with a suitcase today. I'm not going anywhere. I just wanted to work. Well, I'm home. Do you not realize that? That's work. That's work. I mean, admittedly, I do have to have outfits to change into and things for my work. But even so, that is abnormal, Jamie. That's abnormal. My friend saw a picture of me with a suitcase. She said, what is in that bag? I was like, I'm not entirely sure. One day, one day, Ben Shepard pulled out a bird's nest. No, you're lying. I'm not joking. It was an abandoned one and it had been in there because of show and tell at school.

1:07:07You'll go through all this. But I just had noticed it. he was revolted and barely spoke to me for a week because he said, you've had that in your back. Think of the germs. I just was delighted to have found it. I was really pleased. And they tried to put it somewhere safe. What's your guilty pleasure? Well, I don't know. I'm not remotely guilty about it. Chocolate. But actually, chocolate. But I don't. What type of chocolate? What's your favourite chocolate? I'm guilty about pleasures, really. Chocolate with tea? Chocolate with tea. Yeah, chocolate tea. Dairy milk? I'm not particularly big on posh chocolate.

1:07:46No, no, no, no. It's a Capri Dairy Milk Button. It's a galaxy. What turns you off? I really hate graffiti and litter. I was not expecting that. Do you really? Out of nowhere. Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love it. Do you know what I don't like? Now, there's some graffiti, obviously, that's absolutely beautiful. What I don't like is the sort of oppressive nature of litter. It makes me sad that people care so little for where they are. I agree. Or care so little for where they're passing through that they just think it's okay. They just think it's okay to do that. And if you're living in a house and somebody graffitis the side of the house, unless you've given permission, It's like, why did you think it was okay for you to impact everyone else's environment?

1:08:42It's like people that go to the park and play their music loud. Let me buy you some headphones. Happy to do that. Why do you think that your particular taste of music, even if I like it, should be shared? We live in a city. There's no chance of silent. You've got me started now so late in the day. what turns you on um oh like we're not going down that way listen is there anything you want to haven't sorted out the dating situation with your mates dads yet so we're not we don't need to get into that jamie this afternoon that is months if not years away um generally oh my god i love everything i mean the really confusing thing about me there's very little i'm not interested in i've realize um i even spent about 45 minutes at a fate recently talking to people about morris dancing not something that i put at the top of my list to discuss that afternoon but it was fascinating so uh yeah there's very little that that i don't find interesting you're like me i get excited about people getting excited about stuff 100 100 what do you like most about yourself i i don't know i don't know oh i don't know what do i like most about myself about myself or about my life i reckon you're incredibly i reckon you're incredibly caring and loving and open why okay sorry i like that i like that caring loving and open i like that Is that kind of like euphemistic version of intrusive talks too much?

1:10:22Not at all. Not at all. But I reckon that's what... And smothering. I reckon you give out a lot of love rather than almost... You don't... I give out a lot of love, but people are lovely to me as well. So I'm very lucky. I'm very lucky. Bonus one. Okay. Because you're on TV. Oh, yeah. And you never swear. Absolutely. What's your favorite swear word? bugger get out of here it's so good no it cannot be your favourite of course it is oh bugger it bugger is not your favourite why'd you say that why'd you say that I was hoping you were going to go for a big one I feel bugger is a big one I thought you were about to go I never ever I love bugger I see me yeah yeah yeah so your favourite swear word is bugger I also really like the word sod there's something about sod But that's because I read a lot of Irish poetry.

1:11:16They took about sods of earth when I was younger. So yeah, but no, bugger is great, isn't it? It's beautiful. Kate, you have been glorious in every way. Thank you for coming on Great Company. You're amazing. Thank you. Thank you to you. Thank you to you. Guys, I hope you enjoyed that episode. Firstly, a big thank you to Kate Garrow for coming on and being so open and honest about everything. One of the big takeaways I got is that sometimes we forget to think about the butterfly effect that it has on the whole family, the financial, the stress, the emotional stress that goes on. Just shows how incredibly resilient someone like Kate is.

1:11:54I really hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did recording it. And if you like this episode, we have so many more that you can click on and go and watch. And without a doubt, we'll see you next week for another episode of Great Company.

1:12:13Thank you.