LOUIE SPENCE: I MAKE EVERYONE ELSE HAPPY BUT I CAN’T FIND HAPPINESS MYSELF

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2:41Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang, and this is Great Company.

2:48Well, welcome back, everybody, to Great Company Podcast. It's your host Jamie here and you are? The producer, Jemima. Yes, you are. That's smooth. Thank you very much. Jemima's wearing a fleece today. I am wearing a fleece. And you're also reading a book, which gave me anxiety of how big it is. It is a big book. It is. If you listen to Chloe Burrows, it's Fourth Wing. Fourth Wing. Fourth Wing. Sorry, I should give more context to that. Chloe Burrows mentioned she's reading a book. It's called Fourth Wing. I am reading that book. It's very big. Is it about the fourth wing of a house or is it a fourth wing?

3:17Only you would think that. It's about wagons Wagons? Dragons Oh, not about wagons, but dragons I couldn't say my R's as a child And then you learned how to say them? Yeah, concerning when your surname starts with an R Rathbone Rathbone So you say Rathbone I did, not anymore Anyway Anyway, well today we have a really exciting episode Because we have Louis Spence on the show Louis Spence Now tell me how, before meeting Louis What was your thoughts of Louis? Well, I've met Louis before Okay. But only briefly. And Louis has been kind of on TV for many, many years. He's done lots of different shows, started on Pineapple Studios.

3:56He's done Celebrity Big Brother. He's done recently SAS Who Dares Wins. And actually on SAS Who Dares Wins, he was kind of coming up quite a lot on the show. And it really made me go back into thinking, who is Louis Spence? Yeah. Like Louis Spence has kind of been on our TV screens and in our kind of zeitgeist for sort of a long time. but actually I don't really know the real person. I only know him as a dancer and also from that meme, what's it called? I'm like a whippet. I'm like a whippet. Chase me, I'm like a whippet. That's all I know. And he seems to be this larger than life, happy-go-lucky character.

4:35But what we learn on the episode today is his persona is very different to his real self. There's so many people like that. There's so many people like that. Lots of people relate to that. Louis leans towards the sort of darker side of life, I would say. He has experienced anxiety and depression throughout his entire life. He was very close to his mum who died of alcoholism and he talks very openly about that in the show. He talks about a lot of things that I just really wasn't expecting. Wow. It really makes you, we were talking about this earlier, but when you're sat opposite someone on the tube and you don't know what's going on.

5:13You don't know what's going on in their life. And I think that's exactly what this episode represents. When you see someone on your screens, on the tube, in your life, and you think, mate, they're having a great time. They're having a really happy time. They must be having the best time in the world. Underneath it all, they are maybe not what it says on the surface. Yeah, no one ever is. So we really hope you enjoy this episode. It's a deep, meaningful, kind of resilient episode, which I hope you enjoy. Now, if you haven't yet subscribed to our show, please do just click that subscribe button.

5:43It does us wonders. It keeps allowing us to make the show that we love and keeps getting the guests that we want to get for you. And also follow us on social media at Great Company Podcast and you can send us an email, greatcompany at jampopproductions.co.uk. Let us know what guest you want us to have on next. Okay, enjoy this episode of Great Company with Louis Spence.

6:05My name's Louis Spence and I'm in Great Company.

6:12Did you like SS Who Does Win? Look, I never watched it. And people say, oh, you must have. I promise you I didn't. And they told me to watch it. But I thought if I watch it. You won't do it. I won't do it. So I will just go on what you're telling me. I think the concept is great. I think the other people I did it with, some of them were so enthusiastic. I mean, literally, they were so excited about it. Like, you know, the guy from Love Island, Adam. I think his name is Adam. Yeah, Adam, yeah. I was only there so short. And then Lucy Sprague, and she so wanted to do it, you know, and Bimini. And like I say, I was like, I got there and I was like, oh shit, I don't have, it's not there.

6:50I don't have that. Don't have that drive. I don't have that desire. And do you know, I've never, ever, ever left a job voluntarily. But I just knew. You just were like, I know people can say, well, why did you do it then? Because you don't know until you try, do you? It's like I tried vagina once when I was 12. I never went back. I went straight to Mr. Whippy for me extra fucking nuts on my 99. And I thought, do you know what I mean? You try something, you know if you like it. It just weren't for me.

7:22When Pineapple Studios started and it blew up like that, did you expect it to blow up? No, absolutely not. We had lots of people come in and talk. And we were like, oh, fuck off. Because we were far too busy having our fabulous own time. We didn't want people to do it. You had a few people coming in saying, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Lots of different people. you know it's a really interesting place we have people like you know madonna was in there beyonce you know spice girl all these people come and rehearse all the west end showed it's a great hub of you couldn't go wrong anyway but this guy comes in and i see him like i'm standing at the reception obviously pretending that i'm artistic director doing nothing you know because that's what i did really i just minced around and did nothing just spoke to everyone just you know made people smile made sure that the people that come in that they felt welcome and all that anyway this guy pulls up salt and pepper in the hair and um and he gets off this bike but I was a bit worried about.

8:07It's one of those, you know, little foldy ones. I was like, girl, no, she's like, that's too much. Anyway, so then he comes in. And like I said, he had a fucking ass, like two hard-hawked boiled eggs and a handkerchief. I was like, hello. I said, Laura, yeah, he wants to come and talk about something. We've got him in the office. And Widget was supposed to sit in there looking at him like that. And I'm just like, oh. You know, looking. And he had these beautiful blue eyes. And he was really quite quirky and funny. And he said about wanting to do this observational documentary. And I was like, well, I'm the one you need to speak to.

8:35because yeah I'm the artistic director gave myself that title I was never given that title I gave myself it and anyway and then I sorted out with the owner Debbie Moore OBE should be Dame but she's not quite yet but she should be and so I spoke to her and anyway we only got him in because we thought he was quite cute and that's the only reason we did it did we think it was going to be here no it was on Sky I was like well who has fucking Sky if it ain't on 1 to 5 then there was going to watch it on Terrestrial who's going to watch it so I thought you know like I said we weren't being paid didn't give a shit you know, really didn't, had no, no, no idea.

9:09No. And like I say, everything we did on there was totally real. We had a cameraman with each one of us. There was no storylines given to us. There was no, can you do this? You were just having fun. We were doing, the place was a hive of, of theatrical activity. There was dancers, there was singers, there was gays, there was straights, there was bias, there was trans, there was trans, there was, there was fucking all darling. Do you know what I mean? Literally everything was in that building and everyone was just free there so you put a camera in there and someone just guiding it you're going to get a great show the things we did do was like the choreograph the little dance yeah they're amazing but apart from that no that was that was it no do we think it's going to be here absolutely not your life is insane because also i you're doing that you were doing western shows you toured with the spice girls yeah that was incredible what was touring with the spice girls it was the most incredible job because we went around uh the whole of north america the whole of europe with um as dancers dancers didn't get to do that kind of job because we always had the american artists like you know janet jackson madonna michael jackson they always brought dance so yeah we never had an act going to have dancers that broke america i mean the beatles maybe broke america years ago but before after that there's never been somewhere what would take a group of dancers it was always the american artists coming here um we were treated like royalty the girls were amazing to us five-star hotels the gays slipped in the private jets a couple of times only the gays though um uh just amazing literally they they it was wonderful it was it was they this was like the peak yeah yeah it was like you know it was the peak of their fame and we were like performing in front of like you know 90 000 people you know did madison square gardens um literally we went we went everywhere and they were they were a joy to work with they really were and like i say you've never i know the spice has only lasted for a short period but the amount of stuff they did in that period would last some people a lifetime i swear to god those girls didn't have time to fart did they not they were constantly doing an interview if having their makeup done doing a radio interview doing a voiceover for this they would fly from paris to um norway after a show to do an interview there fly back that night the next morning before the show fly there that you've never honestly i'm surprised any of them are sane they they you know they deserve everything they got they worked incredibly incredibly hard and they were amazing to work for is it as glamorous as you think or is it not as glamorous when you pull back the curtain no of course it's not as glamorous because i mean you know i think i'm sure that if you spoke to any of those girls they they wouldn't have had any time while they were doing that to enjoy anything because they didn't have any time so i'm sure that you know there's lots of glamour come for them after um for us it was glamorous you know meeting madonna and prince and michael jackson and that was glamorous for us but we were just the dancers mincing through we didn't have to then you know do all this work and do everything they had to do why did you stop being a professional dancer because i got to after spice girls i the last job i did was magical mr mistoffelius in cats which i was i think i was 28 when i finished that um i've done my first like western show when i was 12 yeah um and i just thought you're tired i was just thought i don't want to be one of them old hoofers trying to stay behind now the pop group drop coming up after the spice girls if i was doing commercial they're going to be like 17 18 i didn't want i'd done it i'd done west end i'd done um commercial lots of commercial stuff and And I just didn't, I just, I lost, I loved to dance, but I lost the passion.

12:47I didn't want to be that old person trying to hang on. I get it. And like I said, I went to work at Pineapple in a place which I loved. I loved being surrounded by all the people I loved, dancers, actors, singers. I was in the hub of, so I was in a place that I was still very comfortable and very happy and there was always something going on. So it was perfect. And like I said, then Pineapple Dance Studios and the rest is history. I totally understand that mentality, right? is when you're in the performance world, it's like job to job. You do a job, you finish a job, you try and find another job.

13:15That's what happens. And then suddenly you're thrown into, this is like 2010. Pineapple Studios comes out, you're the breakout star. And if anyone hasn't seen it, man, we were talking about it earlier. You were fucking just amazing on it. And it's not even a moment in time. We were re-watching clips today. It travels through time. It's still amazing today. Because now it's been made, a lot of things have been made into memes. memes and everything those kind of things but but you came out of so you then come with that you get all this money suddenly thrown at you what does that do to you well initially um like i say it was so insane i did not stop working for like i'd say a good two years like literally you know my agent would send me like when you're a dancer you work you you you have an agent yeah you wait three months to get your paycheck you're always in overdraft you know they would always hold on to the money then they're keeping it in their bank account yeah you know whereas when i became a celebrity or you know known whatever it was then when i did some jobs like within like two weeks or something the money would be paid in my bank account so i thought hold on this is his job my life you know they're just paying me to be spin around with the speech impediment do a hike it can be gay so i'd say for about the first like three years yeah it was just you know i bought a house um i had the flash cars bought the rolexes you know loving myself sick um paid off my parents mortgage you know and still working working working working so it didn't really change because i was sort of spending it like that but i wasn't really looking at how much i was accumulating because i really wasn't i wasn't looking at my bank account every day i was just had these silly checks coming in like i say it started off with a check like monopoly money it started as a check of it every week I was getting like my agent was sending me 30 grand 40 grand 60 grand and not that you become used to it you don't but where I was working as well I didn't have time to sort of think oh you know sort of this but about three years later when you know I had a real intense three years and then you know it just riding the wave which I was absolutely fine with like I said I never thought this was going to last at the same level and I'm not somebody who's terribly ambitious either.

15:34If someone comes to me with something and wants me to do it, then I'm there. I'm creative, but I can't, I think about things, but then I think, oh no, that means I've got to talk to that person. And then I talk myself out of it. Really? Yeah. Even as a creator or creative? Yeah. Because even like with podcasts, people say, you'd be great at podcasts. And I'm like, yeah, but I would, but yeah, I would. Cause I can talk the leg off the chair. I think I can talk to anyone. But the fact is, it's depending how I feel on that day, because from day to day, I could be either in a black hole and not want to speak for a week, or I could be telling myself, you can't actually do it.

16:08You can't do it. There's no way. What are you going to say to them? You know, given... You've got that self-doubt coming in. Yeah. So I know I can do it. If you ask me to come and do it, I can do it because you're responsible. I don't have the responsibility. I don't like responsibility. You know, I don't like that pressure because that pressure gives me anxiety and all of that. Anyway, back to... Just quickly, but again, I don't want to go from our original point, but that's, that's interesting, right? Because I think a lot of people have that. It's that fear of failure. It's that fear of like, we won't be able to achieve things.

16:36And, but okay, before I go into that, so why didn't you think the fame would last? because my whole career as from uh i did my first west end show when i was 12 yeah and like i say every job you do in show business has an end you know it's not like if you're going to go and work in a bank and you're going to have that for life and be promoted up and especially like i say as a dancer i could go from pop to west end to commercial stuff that's fine but when you're in show business as in the now I became a celebrity on this side of it. I'd seen that when I was working with people like the Spice Girls or Take That, how, you know, when I was working with Take That in 1995, they were at the peak.

17:19And then, you know, when you see people of such massive celebrity, all of a sudden sort of disappearing or they're not spoken about anymore so much. Obviously, Take That then had a revival. I'll just use them as an example. Yeah, I get what you're saying. So this little like hiking homosexual with a speech impediment, this ain't going to last right and there's going to come a point where i've peaked and i've done celebs on the farm celebs on the ranch leb to big brother anything with celeb in it darling i was there do you know what i mean so there's going to come a time where it's like it's just going to plateau or it's just going to fall off so i'm i was never expecting even not three years of constant work i was expecting every job would sort of be the last one and not on a negative on a reality thing of the fact is, you know, nothing lasts.

18:12Your mum Pat passed away in 2012. That must have been awful. So my mum, I mean, my mum was my world. You know, she was fantastic. She can never do anything wrong. you know um she was uh full of anxiety um she was always searching for happiness and that's why she died the way she did um she my mum when we were younger was so controlling about because of her anxiety she'd only ever have two bacardus and coats and a packet of 10 number six cigarettes push-up pack little ones like that so she and she if she ever went that's only when she knew out she didn't drink at home or anything anyway um fast forward so many years I'm in London all this time um right up until really 2013 is when I bought the house back in Essex after my mum died but then I was going home more often and even when I become famous my mum come done few bits in the show you know what I mean um and I didn't realize my mum was drinking and I'm from a normal family where you know i think my dad drinks a bottle of wine a day or two yeah do you know what i mean it's like you know and um you know it's like at the weekends you get drunk yeah not not drunk but you know you have drinks my mom never did that she was always controlling but anyway she must have this is how i get it through my head at one point had that one extra drink rather than the and just thought well actually i feel calm maybe not happy but she felt relaxed because she was always away the anxiety yeah so obviously what's happened and i didn't see it and nor did my sisters really i think my dad did but my dad was drinking as well but not anyway i didn't really see it and my sister didn't my mom was never falling over she was always the house was spotless my dad's tea was always cooked she was always well presented never smelt of alcohol yeah whatever all right i wasn't going home so much anyway then i went home i'd become famous in 2010 so this was in 2012 just one day i went home and i stayed for a couple of days don't ask me why because you know i never sort of went home and stayed and my mum had this cough and i remember saying i remember her saying she had to collect some antibiotics from the doctor but she weren't going to bother and i remember thinking that is the weirdest thing because my mum if we were when we were kids my mum literally i thought i was going to start fucking ovulating with my sisters because when they started their periods anything was wrong i went to the doctors with them as well we all had the same thing so one had a cold we all got antibiotics you know so it was really unlike her and i was thinking that's strange anyway i know she looked a little bit sallow but anyway she was fine you know anyway and then the next morning i woke up and i looked at her i was like what's wrong with you i said you look like fucking bart simpson fucking literally her skin had gone like really yellowy like that and i could see in her face she went a bit you know panicky not panicky but you know what i mean anyway so i got straight down the doctors you know i did do the celebrity card a bit because you can't get a doctor point for love nor money so i went down there done a little spin whatever said that if you don't see then if anything happens to her, you know, then I'm going to hold you responsible.

21:39You know, I'm huge. Juno, don't mess with me. I've been on this morning with Holly and Phil when they were on it. Anyway, so anyway, get to the doctor. The doctor said, oh, we'll do some blood tests. I said, what? I said, what are you going to do with blood tests? I said, look at her. I said, fucking look at the colour of her. And I said, to him, she looks like Bart Simpson. You know, because we always have a joke about this. Yeah, yeah. That's how our family is. Anyway, he said, well, you know, I'll ring the hospital. you can take her down there took her down to the hospital she went behind this curtain the doctor's examiner and he said i can see from your records mrs spence that you were told to stop drinking last year because you've got cirrhosis of the liver anyway so then she comes out and i go what she's oh no he didn't say that he did so you know um anyway then from then on like i was rehearsing for panto on on the 2nd of december so this was like a few weeks after um no she'd already gone into hospital for a little for about a week yeah and they told us that the state of her liver should have five years so she'd have five years to live because she had damaged her liver that much from alcohol yes from alcohol and i swear to god she was when i say i promise you she didn't smell literally well presented wow but what she was doing was this is how clever they are what she was doing was she'd always have a water bottle with her always have a water bottle with them always add this for years this water bottle so vodka doesn't really smell does it yeah apparently i don't know because i don't drink it was vodka in there so all these years you know she's always got this water but she's knocking back vodka um when she went in hospital my sister went to have a glass of white wine my fucking white wine it was white wine topped up with vodka and i swear to god i swear to god you're going to say well how can't you see it why didn't you know I wasn't at home so much.

23:27My sisters had their own family. My sister's here, but I swear she was well presented. You know, anyway, so she got taken to hospital for a couple of weeks. Did you confront her? Did you say, what the hell is this? I said, yeah. And she said, I mean, this is the thing. She said, I don't care if I'm going to die, I die happy. That's what she said, right? What can I say? That's your life. You know, we said, you stop, you know, we send you. So anyway, it was too late for that because then she started this whole hospital thing. then she went into hospital for a couple of weeks and then i started rehearsal for pantomime she came out and then within three days later they took her back in i was rehearsing on the it was on the uh second of december i got a phone call mum's been taken back into hospital went home um got uh uh um picked up my dad and went to the hospital she's there with the little thing up her nose a bit of oxygen there uh anyway then we we go home and um uh come back she's got the little mask on like that then when we come back this is all in the same day so then we say right we're going to go and we'll come up in the morning right go back two hours late we get a phone call you need to come up you need to come now it's like you know they told you she's got five years to live all right it's not great but she's got five years you know anyway we come back up we get taken to the room and they say to us um do you want to resuscitate well no one has come and said like you know this is we think that you know she's on her way out kind of thing no one had said even that just my dad was like in shock like what you know anyway we said yes because we were in such shock we're like someone told us she's got five years you're telling us she's gonna die you know so we went straight in the room this time when we went in the room had this mask all over her face it's like a snorkel mask all over her face this big tube and the oxygen you can see it going up and down like this anyway she's on morphine and everything um then we're there for like hours and then she's out of it on this morphine she's just like like out of it then she sits bolt upright like this she takes this mask off face which is the only way she can breathe that otherwise she can't breathe and she says no she takes it off her face and I sort of push back down I'm trying to put this mask back on her face and calling for the nurse no nurse came she sat back up took it off said I've had enough it's like what completely coherent like from on more things like that as clear as day completely I've had enough she took the mask off I mean I pushed it back on her face once I thought well what do I do we're calling for now she took her mask off and I swear within 10 or 20 seconds she just went like that you heard this horrible gurgle it's like a I don't know it's like the fluid or whatever and she turned her head a bit of dribble and she was dead and that was it oh my god and yeah my worst nightmare had come true the fact she was dead and i was just in complete shock and everyone else around me was like crying everything i was just like and after five minutes this is thing i regret i took my dad out i said come on we're going home now i was very matter of fact i said right what do we do next morning i'll come and you know get a death certificate i said all right then you're fine literally arranged the um funeral on my day off from panto um and i was um that was on the third um i was in pink tights and tattoos on the fifth doing pantomime and that was it it was it was it didn't affect me for a year till years after i just didn't and it was it was she drowned that's the hot look all i say people you know it the thing is it's really difficult because you're thinking they chose to leave you why did they leave me like that and i have i don't i don't blame her for anything she was an addict you know she she made that choice along with not having the strength to not and it was too late anyway in a sense you know she would well i say live five years i don't blame her it still hurts the fact that she chose alcohol you know over my dad and us but she didn't because she couldn't because And it's a disease.

27:39She couldn't make that choice. But also, my grandmother died of alcoholism. Wow. My grandmother, her aunt died of, my mum's aunt, my mum's sister died of alcoholism. My uncle just died of alcoholism. Wow. Her brother and my mum. Wow. And it's hereditary. Yeah. There's definitely something in it about it. But I don't drink. My sisters don't really drink either. But it's definitely something. She left you, did she leave you? I'll tell you why she, hang on, this is the point. now I understand I think I try and understand it because my mum was never happy either she was always searching for something she was my mum was jolly and laughing and she you know she could be the life and soul she was really funny you know but I think the reason the drink took over because she was the same she was looking for something that wasn't there she was searching for happiness and not about the love of her children that gave her not the love my dad gave her she couldn't find happiness in herself and that's why she died the way she did and i completely understand that and that's why i don't blame her i wouldn't blame her anyway um but because i think that she just chose to carry on with it and die because the other side was so much harder yeah yeah i mean you're it's so powerful you and your sisters are breaking the cycle yeah which is amazing yeah yeah i mean yeah like i say yeah i i mean i'm just too controlling to what's so interesting for me is when you said like it was all of your worst fears ever since you were a kid and it happened and then it happened right in front of me and i was so matter of fact when it happened three years later i broke down literally that's when i went wow so you you you held it yeah oh no no about a year no but a year two two year two years after that's when i first went on medication because i had to do the medication as an intervention not that i was going to kill myself but i was so i was so low i couldn't breathe i couldn't move my i i i thought i i i i mean i was going just when you use the word insane i mean i felt like i was going and apart from mentally i had this constant feeling of that i was gonna i couldn't breathe and that my heart was racing and that i had pins and needles in my tongue my hands were numb you know i was dizzy i couldn't focus you know all of this so that's when i went on the medication and then like i said then i realized that wasn't for me either did you ever think about having children um or was that a was that a responsibility too much no no well my husband my husband's spanish so you know from a big latino family you know they've He's very family orientated.

30:23He's in fact brought, my family's very close, but he's, you know, we're constantly have dinners at mine and whatever, because he's a real, you know, bring family together. Now we did speak about it after I sort of first became famous. So in like 2011, maybe 2012. How long have you guys been together? We've been together 25 years now. Um, and we did, we did speak about it. So if you've got to think, then I would say I became famous at 41. So it was about 42. So, you know, there was that whole thing. So 42. So another 20 years, I'll be 62. That's still young enough. So we did speak about it. But then one, my anxiety kicked in.

31:05I thought, actually, the sound of it is nice. And I know when people say, like my sisters would say to me, but you just learn to do these things, right? that's fine because when you're heterosexual you can just happen to get pregnant and you go through with it like it's fuck we've done it let's have the baby yeah now that's not going to happen when you're gay it's a very it's a very um conscious decision okay mentally i thought i could not have a child because i would worry that like every parent does i'm sure they're going to die that they can't breathe? What if they get ill once they start to go to school?

31:45And then I won't know where they are. What if I can't provide for them? And like I say, when you're heterosexual and your wife gets pregnant, it's a joyous thing. And it's like, you don't have a choice in a set. Well, you do, but you have that choice. It's natural. It's what happens. But like I say, when you don't have that natural ability, it's a very conscious thought. And when I see gay parents, I think it's amazing. And it's so joyous. And anxiety and depression can make you the most selfish person in the world. Because when I'm having my bouts of it, which is, like I say, I'm like this. I don't want to speak to anyone.

32:32I get very quiet. I get very dark. There's a voice in my head telling me, get out of this, get out of this, get out of this. But I can't get out. And I can only get out when I'm ready. and for anyone else within that thing it's like they don't exist yeah my husband could go or my family could go because i i just can't get out it's a really interesting way to put it so the thought of having kids is too much you you wouldn't you can't no it's so fearful to put yourself that that's what i was getting at because it's the biggest responsibility oh there's no way that's just you know so is that can i ask is that and i want to go back to your childhood but but is that sometimes because of your anxiety or depression because your mental health that's hindered you from doing things do you sometimes so many things do you sometimes go i just why me oh absolutely all the time well i've got to that i've got to that point now actually at the age i am now of realizing that i've always had this from a child in different forms yeah um um i've sort of got past the why me now and i have got to terms with the fact this is just who i am yeah and i have tried i have tried i've done um every therapy you can think of talking therapy um acupuncture cranial osteopathy it's this it's that it's you know eating this food eating that food um medication you know antidepressants um i've done it all right yeah and i have certain the antidepressants put you on a level of nothing you have no emotion you have no empathy um i mean someone could drop dead and you would step over them you can't you cannot cry um no sex because you don't want sex you have no sex drive and you can't even get an erection anyway do you know what i mean because the antidepressants are giving you erectile dysfunction i'll get back to a story on that in a minute um so sometimes i do some i sometimes i do that why me and i just wish like this sounds really awful um we we we we have a flat in waterloo yeah i haven't been there for years yeah um and i used to walk home from work and there was always the same guy uh homeless guy yeah and i had to give him you know buy him cigarettes or give him some money or give him you know you know and i remember one day i see him convolting and i was like freaking out you know anyway he got some help and then two days later he was back there kind of thing and i remember like literally walking past thinking i bet he's happier than me because the fact is every day is a battle for me to get through because with the physical anxiety the panic attacks you think you're going to die when your heart races all of that so you have this whole physical anxiety then the mental anxiety and i think but it's really hard to die as well because this guy is like abusing himself with like drugs alcohol and he won't die but he's still back there and he's obviously I can't get in his head but I would compare myself to him and just and just go and I think a lot that happens a lot of the time where you compare yourself what does make you happy like you know and you can't understand this he's got that and we're both battling this kind of thing but he's like literally I don't drink I don't take drugs because I'd be the one what would you know have a a reaction to the drugs and I don't like drink because then I'm out of control because then I can't get home.

36:08I got all this kind of thing. And I think in there, it's like, you don't give a fuck and he doesn't care if he even dies. And you're thinking in your head, I have all of these things happening. I have all of these things. I have a flat in Waterloo. I have everything going for me and I'm still not happy. Why am I not happy? Yeah. Why can't I find that? That is the, that is the word happy. And this is what I said to, this is, this is the thing with my anxiety and depression is that with, when I made all of, all of this happened, you think that, paying your bills, not, yeah, actually having a house, let alone not having a mortgage.

36:39I thought, you know, never have like a house in the country with a lake and room for a small pony. But like I say, you know, that's the word. And that's what I would say to my husband. And God knows why he's still there. He's the most incredible person. But I would say, I can't find happiness. And you know what, if you were to go on my Instagram, right? And I know my Instagram isn't the world with my followers. But you know, So I'll put posts up, you know, and I'm like, most of the time I post, I'm not going to put posts up saying, Oh God, I feel really bad today. And I'm in a black hole. Cause it's the last thing I want to do.

37:12I don't want to go on Instagram or beach. So the posts I do normally are when I'm on my jollier side and nearly a hundred percent of my comments are people. Oh, you're my therapy. You're my sunshine. You make me so happy. Oh, you make me laugh. Right. Which is wonderful, you know and that is part of me and um i think i make all these people so happy but then i can't seem to find happiness for myself and it's not like i don't have an incredible husband and incredible there's nothing i am loved but that's the word happiness you can't find it's like why can't i find happiness but if i asked you if i asked you to think of a time in your life that you remember was happy when were you happiest

37:59see how hard it is because i've been like this for so long now really yeah i mean literally i mean no don't get wrong i'm not i don't walk around i'm happy all the time but i say but you would but churchill winston churchill used to call it the black dog he always said that there was a black dog always chasing him his depression it was always there whatever he was doing it was always slightly there and i think a lot of people whether you suffer with anxiety or insomnia or OCD or depression. Yeah. It's always kind of there. But do you remember there was a time when you were like, oh, this is brilliant.

38:33See, that's really hard. There's moments I've had when I've done things like, you know, when I was dancing or whatever, you know, felt wonderful in front of an audience and that, but it wasn't in my general life. But look, don't get me wrong. I don't want to sound like a victim and I'm always so unhappy. I am not. But what I'm saying is, my husband, for example, listens to podcasts all the time on his headphones. He walks around the house laughing and I listen to him. Every day I think, God, that's amazing. So lucky to be that free. Because he laughs all the time and he belly laughs. I can hear him if he's upset.

39:17I can't remember the last time I laughed like that. That's how, you know, I can't remember the last time, you know, when you just laugh and you just laugh that you cry and it hurts. When you came here, right? You, and the times that I've met you, you've been a larger than life character. You're always fun. You make everyone feel good. You almost give everyone else joy and forget to give yourself joy. and you said when you were a kid you had so do you always remember ever since you were young having this yeah from what age well when i was younger it was more anxiety as in i would have physical anxiety so i would get like where are we living at the moment where where were you oh i'm talking when i was eight like the first time i had it and you're in essex i'm in essex i was in my mfi bed with chest of drawers underneath i don't know if you'd know what mfi was it was like a really cheap b &q um anyway they used to make this furniture out of plywood yeah and it was this white you know that shiny kind of cheap anyway i was in the box room my sisters had the big room three of them in there one of them used to piss the bed so i was quite glad i weren't in there in a way she used to have an alarm that used to go off every night she had this sheet under her bed and a plastic sheet and every time she started to piss the alarm went off so i thought i'm glad i'm not in that room anyway and wait there's three sisters three sisters yeah and how older than you two older i'm the third and then i've got a younger one amazing anyway so i remember i was learning and i got my heart was beating so strong but as a kid it didn't freak me out i just didn't know what it was and i remember because you're not you're not you're not experienced with it you don't know you're one of what anxiety was having a you know a racing heart and i remember putting a pillow on my chest to go to sleep because then i couldn't feel the heartbeat through my mattress so i can remember back that young and then when i was 12 then i started to have um like just feelings of like this feelings of whooshy dizziness like you know it's and it was there was nothing wrong with me i had you know i got checked um there was nothing wrong but just these weird feelings yeah and when you suffer from anxiety if you look at symptoms you can go from dizziness you can go from losing your sight you know there's all different there's all different things not permanently losing your sight but if you get if you have an anxiety attack you think your vision's going and anyway um so lots of different things from when i was younger and all the way through my career as a dancer it then develops into phobias but what was happening if you go back to eight years old and you're lying in your bed and you're three sisters in your in that room and you're in Essex what is going on at home what is happening I thought my parents were going to die I think lots of children have that feeling that their parents are going to die you know what if something happens to them my parents are incredible um working class you know we never had loads but we had everything we needed we're always clean we love yeah we had love not um not um uh not physical cuddles but we were we we they we were loved by they gave us everything they had you know but it you know the fear of like if my parents went out and we had a babysitter then the fear that they're gonna have a car crash and not and this is like a young age i think lots of children have lots of children yeah i know you do lots i think it's that fear of you know losing it's like separation anxiety that then you've had the fear that something else worse is going to happen also i do think it's just in my genetics my mum was a very anxious person like she had nervous breakdown after she had three children by the age of 19 in between 17 and 19 nervous breakdown after each one she was on uppers and downers because her mum was very anxious and she had put her on uppers and downers from when my mum was about 12 because they didn't used to have like medication we have now you know not like all the sertraline and cetrolopram and you know all these other ones it was uppers or downers or valiums yeah so my mum had been addicted to these as well because she was as a child she would like have anxiety and pass out you know my sister would have anxiety my sister's the one who wet the bed um she would wake up in the middle of the night in anxiety and just collapse you know pass out you know right into you know right into adulthood you know all my family suffer with forms of anxiety and so it's hereditary you think i think there's partly nurture partly heretic genetic um was it well and at school when you were at school I read that you said you weren't bullied at all because you were the life and soul of the party.

43:30You made everyone laugh and everything. I never, I can't say I'm one of these, like, what are we called now, darling? They've got so many letters after our freaking alphabet now. We're queer now, aren't we? Gay, queer, I don't fucking know anymore. It's too much for me even. Fuck knows what the heterosexuals do. I don't even know what my own community is called anymore. I'm so confused, honestly. And I mean that in the most loving way. I love everyone. I don't care what letter you are. I fucking love you. Do you know what I mean? But I get confused, but we're queer. We've reclaimed the words. Yay.

43:58Hallelujah. So when did you realize that you were queer? Oh, I mean, I think when I fancied Mr. Whippy. Get out of here. No word of a lie. No word of a lie. I used to fancy Mr. Whippy. I think I was about to say. With the ice cream. Yeah, the ice cream man. Mr. Whippy, I was seven or eight. And I think that's why I like Latino men. He was dark. And I did. He was always really nice to me. He gave me extra sauce and nuts. On my 99. he did and he was so nice to me um i did i fancied mr whippy i remember it was a cream van on the top pink at the bottom and had his little white coat that's like can i have extra nuts and sauce and he's good and so you realized then that you yeah i fancied mr whippy but were you were you nervous to say it were you nervous to say that oh i think no i didn't even no no i did i never said it i never even i never even said i'm gay i never said i fancy but i just didn't it just i was just you yeah and i was brought up on a council estate and everyone was we all just hung out and played together i had two older sisters and it was a very close knit community on the estate you know my neighbors you know there were seven in their family then we had the jones is up the number three the sherlocks next door and then we had you know the people around the corner it's like a big tribe it's like and you all hung out together so no one no one really mentioned the fact that i was you know like spinning around doing like cartwheels and you know and also i remember But Nadine Lester, you always remember the names, do you?

45:23Nadine Lester became Carnival Princess. God, I was beside myself when she got the fucking tiara. I went straight round her house, fucking tiara on, I got my old neck cut and put it. I was fucking mincing around the estate with this tiara on, thinking I was, you know, the carnival princess. But no, I never felt different. I never felt as though anyone bullied me. I had an amazing childhood. Isn't that amazing, though? Yeah. It's amazing that you didn't feel that way, because there's so many people I've spoken to. I spoke to Luke Evans, the actor. Luke Evans had a terrible time growing up in Wales.

45:56There were lots of things going on and he sort of covered up his sexual identity. He didn't want anyone to know. He felt embarrassed about it and he had an awful time doing it. And there are other people like yourself who had a brilliant time and an amazing time. And were you happy then? I think, yeah, actually when I was young, like then. Can you remember looking back going, God, that was a happy time? I do look upon those times as being happy. Like I say, the anxiety had there I didn't understand it. So it wasn't an issue. Once you understand it, then you try to self-diagnose it as you get older and think that you've got brain cancer, you've got stomach cancer, you've got pancreatic cancer.

46:32I mean, I went through that whole, what's it called? What's the name? Anxiety. Health anxiety. You know, there wasn't a thing I didn't have checked and I didn't have. You know, apart from a vagina, you know, I mean, that's the only thing I thought, you know, that's definitely not well. Because you had this, could have done with bigger balls. Yeah, because the moment which you said that health anxiety really kicked in is when you were young and you thought you had AIDS. Well, yeah, I mean, as soon as them adverts started on the TV, you wouldn't remember, you would have been far too young. There was adverts on the TV saying AIDS kills, and it had a tombstone.

47:08I don't know if you've ever seen that advert replayed. I know. It was all dark lightning, and then this tombstone would fall and go. Not only was that on the TV, then you'd get these leaflets through the door. So I remember picking the leaflet up and then, I mean, at 12, I knew that I was gay, you know, after I was looking at the boys who had already had pubic hairs at like 12, you know, in the changing room thinking, hmm, is that then quite big? You know, and thinking there's a bit of an interest there. Then I sort of, you know, I knew I liked boys. I suppose I knew I liked boys when I was about nine or ten, but it wasn't a thing.

47:45No, I wasn't. It's unconscious. Yeah, I wasn't trying to have sex with anyone. I wasn't active in that way mentally. But I didn't tell anyone. But like I said, why did I have to? Because everyone just liked me anyway. So what age? Can I ask a really personal question? When did you have your first sexual experience? 19. So much so. So what was the fear of then getting AIDS when you were so young? Because I see the adverts on the TV saying that if you're gay, and then you'd see things on the news. So it was all these gay people, men who liked men, who were dying. So I knew that I didn't like girls, apart from wanting to put, like, you know, Nadine Lester's tiara on.

48:26You know, apart from that, I knew. So I knew that I was what they were saying. So that's sort of how I identified with who I was through these people dying. Actually, do you know what? You might have just hit the now and then. That's maybe where I've become totally fucked up. I was always thinking I was going to die. But literally I identified with these people who are dying. And I remember, see. Wow, how interesting is that? That you, that even though you weren't having any sex experience, because you identified it suddenly that you were like boys, that you were gay, that triggered it. And it was on the TV all the time about this, you know, this disease, the gays, this disease, you know, they're infecting the world.

49:00And I thought, well, that's obviously, if I like boys, then I'm going to get that if I have sex. And I remember. So you never, you never wanted to. I didn't even have sex and I thought I had it. It's insane that an advert, an advert can make you have that much anxiety. That's what it did to you. Yeah. So did you then not want to have any sort of sexual interaction with anyone because you were so scared? Wow. Yeah. So then when you did first have your first sexual experience, were you not terrified afterwards? Oh God, yes. Absolutely. Did you talk to anyone about how you were feeling? No. But then I had really frigid, like, relationships.

49:40As in, I wouldn't be adventurous in sex. you know i wouldn't want to do things because i would think even though you're my boyfriend because i had a boyfriend you know i had my first boyfriend for seven years who was wonderful but in my head i was always thinking i can't trust him because i can only trust himself because he might be going out and shagging someone else even though he's saying he loves so in my mind i'm always i was always i was thinking the worst yeah and then that that's the thing like this thing about the anxiety about dying. And I thought, well, if I'm going to die, I don't want to die like that because the only way I'd seen people die with HIV that then developed AIDS in the very early 80s.

50:21It was so tragic.

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52:31Can we talk about stage school quickly? Yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah, amazing. And your parents remortgaged their house to pay for your school fees. Yeah. Well, I mean, the thing is, that's when Margaret Thatcher sold all the council houses. That's why there's nowhere for anyone to live now, because they were all sold up then. But it was a great thing to do, because I think my parents bought their house, I don't know, maybe for£27 ,000 or something, a three-bedroom semi, you know. And, you know, my dad was at the limit. My mum was, like, working two jobs. I've got three sisters. Your mum was working in a factory and she was also a...

53:07Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she was also a cleaner at the school. Yeah. And my dad was like a painter and deco, worked in the tyre factory. You know, they just, like I say, we had a lot of love. So you've seen hard work. Yeah. But I wanted to go. And I'm sure, like I said, I've said it before. My dad's answer would have been no, I'm sure. Because he couldn't take any more on. He couldn't take any more on. You know, it was just too much. But my mum would have convinced him. And you had a good relationship with your dad? Yeah. I mean, yeah, my dad lives with me now. Wow. yeah when my mum died we i moved back to essex and bought a house and my dad lived with me and my husband um so yeah i mean but when i was younger i did not have a bad relationship with him but i didn't have a relationship with him because he was always working yeah everything was just through my mum mum so then so then they so then they remortgaged the house and they said you can go to this dance school yeah and you know and it paid off in the end because like i say it's like you know 20 or 30 years later i paid off their mortgage of course you know so it sort of finally sort of got there but it was a big it was a big thing for them to do especially my dad because i say my mum i mean if she wanted something she'd get uh you know we'd have the profi man i don't even know what a profi man is no you wouldn't you too pass so the profi man would just come and knock on our door he's someone you'd borrow money off like a bit of a loan shark okay they used to go around the council estates and i think his name was ian it was quite nice actually I fancied him.

54:29I'm the profit man. Anyway, so the profit man would lend you money. So if you needed£100 or£200, and then you'd pay him back, and obviously with a lot more to pay. So every time it's like profit man, like we'd have to fucking close the curtain, side behind the sofa and don't make a noise. And he'd be shouting through the letterbox saying, we know you're in there. No way. Because my mum would always borrow money off the profit man. See, my dad didn't know, because the profit man would always come round before the husband's come home from work, really. Because it was always the wives that borrowed money for everything else.

54:55Was that scary? um no not really because it's happened all the time you know once a week he'd always knock on the door until she had something to give him we'd just always be hiding behind the sofa which he paid for lovely draylon sofa we had in the 70s darling brown draylon and a shag pile honestly my dad built a brick wall we had um we had uh patio doors at the back honestly double glazing we were so posh on the estate but you went to this dance school how good were you honestly Does it separate yourself from your own? How good were you? I think I had a natural ability. So I was lucky. I didn't have to fight for dance.

55:30I was never a triple threat as in singer. My singing was awful. I mean, I suppose I could act a bit, but the dancing, it was a natural ability. You know, I was very fortunate. You could just feel it. I could just do it. Nothing was a struggle for me. My body, I could do splits. I could do backflips. I didn't have to push myself. So I had a natural talent in that. Did you love it? I loved it, but it needed to be nurtured. and you know at stage school I must say at stage school I didn't really learn a lot more than what I did I think I was kept back a bit because some people weren't as advanced as me naturally but I learned how to be you know a fabulous gay and tap dance you know honestly and like I say you know I met some incredible people the environment was full of young like from 12 to 16 year olds in the lower school who were just like it was like fame it was like what you see on you'd see this is at italiconti people would sing and dance and people were camp and funny and you just i just learned so much about life and being with like you know you had the me who was there you know my parents scraping every penny then you'd have people like yourself um well not you actually because you'd never have got in but you'd have like three members from one family and their parents were paying for that who they would stay in their dad's flat when we're at the Barbican in Barbican because their dad had a flat but you know so there's a real mix of people did you feel especially back then was the sense of opportunity so exciting yeah like it like it was everything to play for yeah because they had an agency at the school as well so then you'd do you know there'd be a notice come up on the board of who was going to do Grange Hill which was a show yeah like as an extra and then like I think Bugsley Malone in the West End you know that was your first ever role like in the West End yeah so you know about who's going to audition and then And when you get the job and, you know, so you'd go and see on the board, there's an audition coming up for, I suppose now it'd be like, you know, if the kids were there for the Harry Potter films or whatever, you know, there'd be the audition.

57:23So they'd go to all them schools first. So it was fantastic. It was absolutely incredible. You know, Was there a part of you because I think a lot of, I remember acting and wanting to go into acting and being on stage and being in front of audience, because I think I definitely felt a sense of, a real sense that we all do of insecurity. And I thought being in front of people, being on stage where you were loved would cure a lot of things i had that was giving me some validation do you have any of that or you just actually just love performing no i just love performing i mean there's nothing like i mean i love performing because when i dance like i say when i did something i did feel uh like sometimes like when you do things like i call it a turn for now like a pirouette it's when you turn on one foot or something or you jump in the air you know or you do like i used to do lots of flips like somersault and there's a moment where you feel suspended like when you're doing some sort in the air and you feel amazing you can literally feel yourself going through there and you can see the ground and and you know that you are looking amazing i knew i was fucking great at tumbling you know and you just knew and that feeling that you knew you were incredibly better than anyone else at that point and the whole room is looking at you and they're all your like peers all other people yeah you're that little bit better than them at that do you know i mean there's no better feeling than that there's something that and it It wasn't about the applause from the audience.

58:42That came after with becoming a public figure and knowing that I could, like you say, I can't help myself. When I come in here, they put me in a room downstairs, which was lovely, I must say. Lovely little room, nice decoration, same as wherever else. Not enough sweets in there. I didn't see any sweets in there. So I thought, I'm not sitting in here. So I went straight upstairs, went straight into the room with the girls, had a chat with the girls and the dog, found out one of the girls went to the same school as me. and then um you know i went in and see the marketing team i asked my sales was going sales are good i said well that's good and then i got to eat the new peanuts you know which are new the chocolate peanut ones and i said my husband kept me some of them from tesco's but actually they're nowhere near as good and i'm not just saying that because the tesco ones the chocolate's not very healthy it's not very nice chocolate and it doesn't have the crunch anyway so i just went and introduced myself then i went up to the top office where you've got your accounts or whatever and then the you know we there's a little ballroom at the end and you've always been like this yeah Oh, I can't help myself.

59:36But what is the difference between going to that? I love people. I love people. I love just like everyday people. And I feel as though I know I have the ability to walk into a room. And light it up. You could have, like I say, the straightest, maybe homophobic in a sense person. And I know I could make them smile or I could do something. Or I know that I could make that room laugh. And I do it in a way, sometimes with shock factor. but I'd never do it in a way where I'm being insulting someone or if I thought I would never pick on someone to make them feel uncomfortable, to get a laugh for myself.

1:00:14No, you would never do it. It's more on myself. You know what I mean? But I like that. And then I see they smile and they laugh. And yeah, that gives me joy. But what was it like going to your school, performing there, but then going back to Essex? Was it completely two different lives? Or not really? Yeah, well, you know, that's the thing. I didn't really used to go back. Did you not? No. So from the age of 12? Once I was in London, that was it. And even for one of my sister's weddings, I say one of them, because it wasn't the first one. I didn't even bother going back. I was like, I was living this.

1:00:44I love them. Of course, like I say, one of my sisters lives with me as well now. Do you know what I mean? She's in the annex darling that I had to build. You know, so we're a very close family. But at that time. Did you lose yourself in that salon? Oh, absolutely. And I'd always ring home every night and say, hello, mum. Yeah, what's going on? Yeah, right, Leah. Love you. Bye. But things like weddings, I thought... Wasn't exciting. I don't give a shit about it. I don't want to go and go to a fucking wedding. And, you know, it's like I couldn't be bothered, which sounds wrong because... But, you know, by that time, I think my sisters had two kids each anyway.

1:01:15They were getting married. They'd already done the deed. But what was the excitement? Where was the drive? What were you seeking? What were you after? What was more fun? Was it the party, the connection, the roles? what was it no i mean what staying like not going home yeah not going home and being there i was just like i say i was just i had my friends and we had our flat and we had our our world you know it was yeah we would do like you know go and do dance class in the morning and the afternoon go back shower pick up a free fly from a gay bar so on monday night we'd go down to i think it was bang which used to be a story around um tottenham court road tuesday night we go to daisy chain which was in brixton never paid to get in because you already get the flyer thing yeah um uh wednesday night we'd go to pyramid at heaven thursday night we'd go to bang friday night we would go somewhere else saturday night heaven again um you know so it was like our world was taken up we're doing class and like i say i was in that circle of um like this community of people where like You know, just, it was constant laughter and fun.

1:02:25And you just felt there. You felt at home. You felt like your family. So you didn't want to leave that. It was too empty when you left it. You know, it just felt so flat. You know, and like I say, being immersed in musical theatre and with people from the theatre, you know, you have like, you know, people say that I can be funny and that I'm entertaining. I can do this. I learned this from people in the theatre. There's people who work in the theatre or in showbices who just haven't made it, haven't had that lucky break. Well, there's not loads of me around, but there's lots of people who are very funny, quick-witted.

1:02:58And from being a dancer, I'm very physical. If I'm explaining something, I'll be, you know, and then I give it a... Yes. And that's what gets the laugh. It's the physicality. Do you know what I mean? Yes. And when you've got a group of people like that, you can imagine that you're all not fighting for the attention, but it's just... Louis, was there a point, because you're in this, you're dancing, you're having the best time, it's all going, going, going, going, everything's great. Was there a point when suddenly everything just started to like move away and then suddenly this sort of quiet came in?

1:03:30Because I remember when I was 27, I remember it must have been 26, 27, and I was doing a TV show, I was going out, I was having fun, it was just great. I was like everything, everything, everything. And I remember at 27 years old and it was in the summer and I was meant to go and film in France. And I suddenly just sat there in my flat and I went, wow, I feel really lonely. No, that didn't happen to me until after I became known. Because like I say, I've always suffered with the anxiety and the depression and the lows and all of that. But that real emptiness... It was certainly covered up with all the stuff that was going on.

1:04:01Yes, that real emptiness, I suppose, came when I became famous. So before that, that emptiness wasn't there as much because there was always this community of people. of people people you know and then when i moved back to essex you know after i became famous um there was more time to think more time and also i was older then but um yeah i didn't i did that that emptiness came after i had um money security um an incredible husband wonderful family but i still felt like i say that i feel empty so and so searching why why was i empty what what is it what is it what is it that will make me happy what am i searching for and it's not knowing and still now i think i'm i'm better than i was but i do think i i don't want to die i don't want to be on my deathbed and think so every day not well yeah most days i struggle to try and be happier than i am because i don't want to be in my deathbed and say i was always concerned about not being happy or worrying about this or worrying about that and now i'm i'm dead or i'm dying you don't want to spend your whole life thinking about that and then suddenly get to a point where it's like what the hell i'm better than i was because i remember that in my 20s i remember thinking i'd be dead by the time i was about 30 why no idea just thought i wouldn't make it i obviously because you were chaotic and you're all over no i had this physical anxiety so i thought i'd been to the brain specialist i'd been to the you know um i'd had stomach cancer i hadn't you know but you convince yourself so much that i would come out in rashes that i would you know because you're so and i remember thinking and then i remember thinking once i got past that age i'm not dead and then you know so as i'm getting older and i'm getting closer to death in the sense of I've got, I'm on the last leg of my life.

1:05:59Do you know what I mean? I'm not middle-aged anymore. I'm beyond middle-aged. You know what I mean? So. And then suddenly the anxiety sort of starts to come back because you're almost like worried about, you're worried about something that's not going to happen. But then when you get near it, you then start worrying about it. So it's like a whole life. So I'm, I, in fact, I'm trying, I try not, I don't do that as much now, but it is that thing of like when people say, you know, Oh, you know, live for the moment, live for the day. it's fucking hard you know it's easy to say and you can do your fucking chakras and your breathing and you know your hum runga dinga danga do you know what i mean i like a big donger do you know you can do it as much as you like darling but you know it works that that moment like for me all of those things the breathing the yoga all of those things a moment they will work and i know you have to practice it every day in that but sometimes you you don't practice it that next day because you'll wake up that next day and you're in that hole again.

1:06:53So you don't care about practicing that because you don't care about anything.

1:07:01What's your greatest achievement personally?

1:07:08Well, I think, I think, I don't know. That's so hard because I just get through every day. I mean, I mean, I don't mean that in a dramatic way. I just mean, I really don't know. Like I say, you know, I think… Being in a relationship for 25 years. I think, I was just about to say, I think being with my husband, but I don't know if that's my achievement or his. Really? Because I wouldn't be with me, and that's not as a drama thing, but because of the way I am, I couldn't cope with someone like me because I would be like, fuck that, I can't fucking live with you because it's bad enough, you know, being me.

1:07:50But fortunately, he's not like me. But I think... What a great guy. Yeah, I think it's not so much my achievement, it's his achievement because he's so supportive. And yeah, I don't... Do you guys have a great relationship? We do have a really good relationship, a great relationship. But it's... Sometimes I just like, you know, and he will hate me for saying it, you know, if he listens to this. And I've said before, I wish I could show him more love because my love has always been shown through, not material things, like with my parents, like they would always make sure we were well, make sure we had nice clothes, make sure we were clean, make sure we were fed.

1:08:29And that's the kind of way I show my love by making sure that I don't want him to ever have to worry about anything. Not that he does, he's his own man. He can look after himself, but it's just the way I am. That's my way of showing you that I really care. Like if he says, oh, I've got a headache, it's for a brain scan. And I'm not joking. you know what I mean because I'm thinking oh my god it's like no I'm fine you know it's like I've just got a migraine I'm like no you know so that's my way but some I'm not on a I'm not a believe it or not I'm not a cuddly are you not no I am with like like like alright you know all of that but I'm not I'm not a cuddly affectionate person and he really is I'm a bit of a cold fish yeah but yin and yang is always quite good yeah what's the best thing about your husband I mean there's so many he is uh honest really honest really honest kind um compassionate um he will hate me saying all these things um gentle and um love it's just like his unconditional love is just he's just you know and that sounds really wanky but like i say being i've explained what i'm like right how I can not talk and get in all of that.

1:09:46So for someone to be with someone for 25 years and long before we had anything we had financially or the properties or all of that. So that whole period before of, of, and still, you know, and really battles to get me out of those situations. Won't give up. Wow. He won't give up. Yeah. He's a, he's a very, very special person, you know, and he's really handsome. He's really handsome as well You know, it's like Thank God I just had my eyelids done, darling Took a few years off me Do you know what I mean? I was like I just want to say Man, you're just You're creating your life Everything is just amazing I hope you realise you're an amazing person Yeah, I mean, look You should do You're amazing Yeah, I don't think that I'm not a nice person I don't think I'm amazing I think I'm a good person No, you light up the room and you're great in every way Yeah Louis, you have eight questions Go on Are you ready for this?

1:10:49Oh God Come on, you got this Here we go What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? Oh, fucking Oh no No, no, no You put me on the fridge Hold on, let's start again What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? Oh, I don't know It's hard Saying or phrase What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? It could be anything It could be I love you It could be I missed you It could be welcome home. It could be something your sisters say. I don't know. Fancy a rim? Yeah. Best compliment anyone's ever given you?

1:11:26I didn't know you were gay. How was that, really? Obviously, someone was lying. I don't know if it's a compliment. What scares you most about yourself? Oh, God. Oh, God, there's so many things. what gets me most about myself oh my the voice in my head yeah when was the last time you cried

1:11:58not fully cried I I think I was watching something to do with dogs on Instagram you know with these abandoned dogs oh yeah yeah but I had to turn off before but I haven't sobbed for years. Not that, you know, when you really go for it. When you really go for it, you haven't done that. What's something you can't let go of? My husband. There we go. What's your guilty pleasure?

1:12:25I don't feel guilty about anything. Would you love that? Would you love, like, my guilty pleasure is something like... I don't even know what my guilty pleasure is. Exactly, Steve. What is a guilty pleasure? I don't care what anyone thinks. Yeah, I don't feel guilty ever. I don't I don't There's nothing I feel guilty about If I fucking like it I like it It's like It's nothing guilty about it I love rom-coms I fucking love rom-coms Oh god Nothing Maybe it's nothing Nothing's guilty That's fine What turns you off? Bad breath Hell of fucking ptosis What turns you on? Cleanliness That's good It's next to godliness darling And he loves us Doesn't he the gays We're all welcome up there Not What do you like most about yourself?

1:13:12what I like most about myself I suppose I suppose I'm generous I suppose you know that's but that's my way of showing love I try and be generous yeah and last one what's your favourite dance move slut drop Louis thank you so much my pleasure you're amazing that was

1:13:36okay what did you think Wow. Wow. Wow. Very deep episode. Very deep and absolutely not what I was expecting. Yeah, and I just, how Luis started going all over the place in lots of different directions on tangents and trying to bring him back to what I really wanted to discuss was kind of quite complicated. And because he's done TV for so long, it sometimes feels like he needs to entertain and make stories. And then what was interesting afterwards is he said, God, I think I'm a bit boring. I don't think that's interesting. Could you relate, did that like ring a bell for you? Because you've spoken about that.

1:14:09I used to have that. Yeah. I used to have that because when your whole life is about entertainment, sometimes that can happen. I think Louis spends his whole life being this person. So when he's not being that person, he thinks he's boring. But actually the real Louis Spence is far more entertaining, far more interesting, far more amazing than he could possibly ever know. Yeah. So on that note, we really hope you enjoy the episode. If you yourself are struggling or know someone who's struggling, we're going to leave some links in our show description to places where you can go for support and help um please subscribe to the show if you haven't already follow us on social media at great company podcast and send us an email we want to know what you think about the show what guests you want us to have on next great company at jamper productions.co.uk and of course we're on youtube as well and we'll see you next week for another episode of great company

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