LOVE EXPERT YUNG PUEBLO: WHY WE STAY IN RELATIONSHIPS WE KNOW ARE OVER

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2:16Hello everyone, my name is Jamie Lang and this is Great Company.

2:25Well, hello, Jemima. Well, hello, Jamie. How are you? I'm well. That's how I say that every week. You do say it every week. That's a good thing. And then you say, what can I tell you about me? What can I tell you about me? And I say, I didn't ask. I know. And then we get into what's going on. What's going on with you? We're a broken record. No, listen, today's episode, you've probably, you may have clicked on this episode, been intrigued. You may not know the person who is in the title, Young Pueblo. I've accidentally followed him for years. Yeah, he's amazing. Because I love, so Young Pablo is really, really big on socials, on Instagram, and he posts like incredible quotes and things.

3:01I like the way he thinks and I followed him for years. And then he got in touch with us. He's a really big fan of newlyweds, actually, which now known as Nilly Parents. Nilly Parents. You know, and you're like, oh, I didn't realise like. I've been following him. I've been following him. I was like, oh, I'm accidentally a massive fan. He's really great. He's amazing. He's a real thinker. He talks a lot about love And how we can navigate relationships And navigate ourselves in this space He lives in New York We recorded this in January We recorded this in January And I remember we recorded this on a Friday at four o 'clock Did we?

3:38He's such a calming presence And that time of the week it was so nice to come For me I find Fridays are quite intense days Do you find them intense days? Because the day that I'm like I've not done all those things I like a Friday. Jamie on a Monday is the absolute worst. Yeah, Monday for me is like, okay, I want to get things done, done, done because we've had two days of not doing stuff. So Fridays for me I like because it feels like the week has been full of everything. So it's so nice to have this like unbelievably calm. Oh, he's great. So I promise you, if you clicked on this, you're going to really enjoy this episode.

4:06It's going to teach you a lot about how to handle yourself, your mind, your relationships, so many different things. If you haven't subscribed to the show already, please can you click the subscribe button. It does its absolute wonders. You can also let us know what you think of the show, what guests do you think we should have next is where we want to hear from you. You can send us an email, greatcompany at jampopproductions.co.uk, or you can send us an Instagram at greatcompanypodcast. Slide into our DMs. Okay. You ready for this? I am. Please enjoy this episode of Great Company with Young Pueblo.

4:37Hello, I'm Young Pueblo and I'm in Great Company.

4:45What do I call you? So Diego's fine. The name that my parents gave me, but I write under the name Young Pueblo. And, but Diego is totally fine. So I can call you Diego. Yeah. Is that what your friends call you? Yeah. Great, we're friends.

5:02What do you think is the biggest block for people who are trying to lead a calmer life? I think if you want to, yeah, I mean, if you want to lead a calmer life, then you really have to train yourself to not make important decisions when your mind is super agitated. So when the mind is hot, when the mind is just like, you know, something happens, it's very challenging and you're already reacting super hard, then give yourself a little bit of time. Cool off because a calm mind makes the best decisions by far. So make your mind a little calmer, relax, and then you act. Because then normally when you're reacting, You're just being impulsive.

5:46You're just repeating the past over and over again. And when you pause and you act, that's when you allow the intentional you to move forward. That's like a perfect answer. Congratulations, you passed. I want everyone to go and get your new book, 100 % How to Love Better. So I don't want you to give too much away, but one of the chapters, How to Thrive. How do we thrive? Because at the moment I feel like there is, life is really tough. And at the moment we're constantly comparing ourselves to one another all the time because of social media. Politics is tough. There's wars going on. It just feels like there's a lot of pressure financially, emotionally, all these things going on.

6:29So how do we thrive? I mean, even from dealing from the point where you started, like there is so much going on that anytime you consume anything, it also burns energy, right? So you have to be aware of that. Like if you're, you know, constantly answering text messages, constantly answering emails, you never put your phone down, you're constantly like consuming, consuming, consuming, then you're just going to be exhausted. You're just going to be tired all the time. So creating moments where you just like go back to what it means to being human, like having dinner with somebody and not watching TV, going on walks, being in nature, like these little things, combining it with having gratitude, even in the tough moments, even when things are falling apart and finding things to be grateful for.

7:16and then you take that and combine it with a practice. We live in this really special moment in human history. It's never happened before where there are literally millions of people benefiting from therapy. There are millions of people meditating, millions of people doing yoga. You talked about your boy who wants you to do breath work. There's so much out there, so many different styles of a bunch of things that can help you. So what's our role? It's like, well, whether you've experienced serious trauma or not, you've definitely had some hard moments and those hard moments have impacted your mind.

7:52So find some type of tool that will help you not only cultivate the new qualities that can support you and making better decisions, but that can help you just show up as a new version of yourself. I think it's so important to just like, what I'm hoping for is like, let's say 10 years down the line, the same way that people care so much about food and fitness, that they're also going to care a lot about their minds. And like, I'm like, okay, so, you know, I want it to be common culture for me, for me to like, you know, be able to ask people, Hey, like, what do you do to take care of your mind? And you're like, Oh, I meditate.

8:29I do breath work. I do X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, Oh, that's so cool. You know, that would be an amazing world to live in. Do you still struggle? Yeah, but not like before, you know, like I, I'm trying to, I mean, that's kind of what I based my whole life on is like, whenever I struggle, it's because I'm clinging. It's because I'm attached. Like I'm, I'm hanging on to something. Right. And what I'm - But give me more of that. What do you mean? So like - What, like, it could be anything. It could be like a family, you know, you know, when like a family member is like struggling and you can, you barely have any control over that situation.

9:02You're kind of just watching someone, you know, either be sick or making bad decisions and it affects the rest of the family and, and just seeing that. And it's like, yes, I'm attached to wanting everything to be okay, but it's just not right now. I'm just, so I need to be okay with any grief that I may be feeling inside of me or be okay with, you know, the sadness that's coming up. But I also have to understand that this is all super temporary. It's super temporary. Dude, that's it, man. Yeah. Even in the keyword, you can even synthesize it down to just accept. Like, just accept. Like, why are you even, like, think about it.

9:40In this moment, you're having anxiety. And then what are you going to do? Throw more fuel on it? Like, by fighting it? Like, that's not even productive. So feel the anxiety. Let yourself feel it. And just, you know, it's going to change like everything else. Like, no, there's literally never been an anxiety that's lasted the entire length of the universe. Like, it's not possible. It's hard to remember that sometimes when you're in the thick of it. Totally, totally. But everything's hard until you train yourself. Like, you're not just going to run a marathon. You got to train, you know? So the same way you can train your mind.

10:14What were you like as a kid? I was, you know, I mean, it was different phases. I think when I was growing up, when I was like a little, little child, I was quite quiet and I would play by myself all the time. When I was in high school, I was just like, you know, so desperate to be cool. Like, so like, you know, I was always going to parties, going out and hanging out with people. And I think that earlier version of me was like imprinted by society where like, I didn't really know who I was. I didn't really know what I wanted to do or how I wanted to even show up in interpersonal situations. So when I look back on it, like I think one of my main things that I've been working on is just Developing gentleness because I think in the earlier part of my life because life was hard I was hard and I was you know, just like a little rough with my words with people and But now it's like let me just let me be cool.

11:05Let me just be gentle Explain that a little bit more. What do you mean you were a bit rough with your words? And I think I could have been a jerk, you know, just could have been a jerk like when I was especially when I was younger I think like I grew up in extreme poverty, you know, like the situation was really dire for my family and I, like I was born in Guayaquil in Ecuador in South America. And then my mother and father, they decided that for my brother and I to really prosper, we, the four of us needed to move to the United States. And what was funny was first we were going to move to New York city, but we spent two weeks there.

11:39And my mom was like, we got to get the hell out of here. and we ended up moving to Boston and we grew up there. But in Boston, like the first thing that happened was, you know, we were immediately stuck in this classic American poverty trap where like it was just my parents are constantly trying to figure out how to pay the rent, constantly trying to figure out how to put food in the fridge. And over time, that just makes you develop a very hard outer shell. And I think that, you know, manifested in just like making jokes that are too mean or I don't know, just being a little rough with like, with my words.

12:12Does that mean you had the awareness as a kid? Did you realize that you were living in poverty? Did you realize? No, oblivious. Yeah. Oblivious. I thought that was just totally normal and natural. And I, you know, I didn't have any way to process my emotions back then because it was just like a, for years, you know, we're talking like 15 years of us. I get to the United States when I'm four years old. And then it wasn't only until maybe when I I was like 15, 16. My brother was 20, 21 where, you know, both of us had jobs and we started helping my parents with the rent, helping, you know, so we were like leveling things out and things got a tiny bit economically easier.

12:51So it was just totally normal. But when I got to college and I saw, you know, I went to, I went, ended up going to a good school in Connecticut. And that's when I came across, you know, like extreme levels of wealth. And I saw the disparity and I'm just like, wow. Like we were living in such hard times constantly. And then I started noticing, I'm like, I have all this anxiety, all this fear coming up and I have not processed it at all. And I didn't want to, I just wanted to run away from it. There's so many similar comparisons that I have with that. And what's really interesting is that I, I came from probably the opposite side where my parents had a lot of money.

13:30And that also came with its huge issues because I was sent to boarding school. and I say this a lot, but Sender Boring is called eight years old, right? Eight years old, I was sent off, which is just mad. So, and I didn't understand that concept. So that like rejection that I received was like heavy. And then I never processed anything and I didn't want to process anything. So I ignored it and I seeked validation and this and all those different things that I started to chase because to sit in my own comfort was just too difficult. It's crazy how humans, we ignore that. We actually just try and run away from, you know, actually feeling and listening to ourselves?

14:03I think it's very common. I mean, it's hard to, it's, it's really hard to be able to feel without a process that can hold you through that. Because when the anger comes up, when the sadness comes up, it's rough. You don't know what to do with it. So for me, when I was in college, like my first thing that I could do was like roll up a joint, like smoke more weed, you know, go to more parties, start doing cocaine, like, you know, party as much as possible, because that was the easiest way for me to just numb the emotions, get away from it all. And it ended up into this, you know, the situation where I just like push my body to the edge, you know, just did way too much for too long.

14:43And then about a year after I graduated, I hit that rock bottom moment where I like literally almost lost my life, filled my body up with way too many drugs. My heart was going to explode. and it wasn't until that moment where I realized I'm like, I'm here on the floor crying, begging for my life because I didn't want to admit to myself that I don't feel good, that I need to deal with these emotions that are happening inside of me. So that, that was the beginning of, you know, switching things around. Take me to that moment. What do you mean? You, you, you were just, you were partying and consuming more than most?

15:21yeah come on it was yeah it was like uh you know like weekend warrior type thing like you know and more than that i mean we would party from like from like we like would invent reasons to party you know where it was like we created this thing called beer pong monday for no reason like why are we doing why are we playing beer pong for that long on monday or just finding all these ways to include more parties throughout the week and you know going out till seven eight in the morning and then, and not just like out hanging out, but like consuming, consuming the whole time. When you were lying on the floor, what was that moment that you suddenly realized that you had to change your life?

15:56Well, I, there was a bunch of things happening. I mean, I talked to a doctor about it later and, um, and she told me it sounded like a mild heart attack. And I mean, I just taken too much, man. It was like, you know, too many things at once. And, but what I was thinking about, I kept thinking about my parents and I was surprised. I kept thinking about how much of a sacrifice they made, how they took this giant risk to come to the United States and intentionally knew that they were going to suffer while they were here. And just in there working. My mom, she worked cleaning houses. My dad worked at a supermarket.

16:34And these aren't the type of jobs where it's easy to just grow from there and get up the economic ladder. They were literally stuck in these jobs. and I thought to myself like one I don't want to like waste that opportunity and I also don't want to like just blip out of life without yeah I don't know I wanted to help I wanted to help in some way but the first thing I had to do was help myself so what'd you do I did two things I when I got home I bought a tub of barley grass which is like this old school superfood in the back because this was like the summer of 2011. And you know, wellness wasn't as popular back then.

17:14So like I look online. Sorry. I laugh about it too. I want to be sensitive, right? You've nearly had a heart attack and you think, I need some barley grass. I need some barley grass. I need some fish oil and I need to start going on walks.

17:32It's just wild. It's the mind of a, literally the mind of a 23 year old like i don't need to see a doctor i'm good i'm good i'm riddled with anxiety i feel terrible this gets a body grass gonna walk that'll be right oh my gosh it's so true it's like so ridiculous looking back on it now it's so absurd and and you know the wild thing was that because so i made a decision in that moment i was like i'm gonna stop all the like the the hard drugs, the random pills, like, you know, things that I'm just like throwing into my body and the combination of that. And, and just like, I was so unhealthy too, at that time, like, you know, I had gained so much weight, like my body was so weak.

18:17Um, so the act of like going out, walking, ended up signing up to a gym, like two weeks later. Wow. That's a game changer. That's the moment, right? It was a game changer. And I started seeing the results and it got to the point where I was like, okay, I'm literally starting to turn my life around. And then the biggest, like the emotional thing that I did was that I knew the problem was stemming from me being scared of my emotions. So I'm like, okay, if I'm constantly running away from my emotions, let me do the opposite. If anxiety comes up, instead of rolling up another joint, let me just sit on the bed and just feel it.

18:51And this is like before I learned how to meditate or anything like that. And I would sit on the bed like 10, 15 minutes and just like feel the anxiety. And I'm like, okay, this sucks, but I'm okay. It's fine. Like the thing that I thought was so scary, it's actually, it's actually fine. What was your relationship like with your parents at that time? Surface level, totally surface level. And almost like, like we were in a play, you know, it was like, they, they have their lines. I have my lines. And it was just very kind of like routine. And I remember thinking about that and just being like, actually, I love my, my dad is the man.

19:32Like he's like, he's a hero and my mom is amazing. So like, why am I not telling them that I love them? Why am I not paying attention when they're talking? And it was funny because in that year, I, you know, I felt the sadness of seeing that a lot of my relationships with my friends, with my girlfriend, my now wife, that they were just totally surface level. And it was because I wasn't in contact with myself. So as I started paying more attention to myself, I gained this almost like greater capacity to be able to connect with other people. And then I started telling my dad, I was like, Hey man, I was like, I love you.

20:07You know? And he's, he's a strong guy. I'd grab him, just give him the biggest hug. And he was like, what are you doing? You know? And it was, it took him time to be able to like, just accept the embrace and realize like, I'm not gonna, you know, like, I'm gonna let you know how I feel about you because I know how much he's busted his ass to keep us all alive. And, um, and now he's, it's funny because he has a long ways to go with his own inner work, but now he's very vocal about how much he loves me too. And it wasn't like that in the past. It's strange when that happens, especially between father and son for some reason.

20:45There's this like weird sort of, I had it with my dad for a long time. And, you know, I actually have like quite a lot of guilt about it. I have a little brother who's probably about 19 years old. And he phoned me up the other day and he said, I just want to ask you a question. I said, okay, cool. And he said, I've just read an article that was like in 2017 or whatever. and it spoke about dad in a bad way. And I went, yeah, I know. And he went, well, why don't you try and change it? Why don't you get that article removed? And I said, I can't, it's an article. What do you want me to do? And he said, well, when they were lying, why don't you try and change it?

21:24And in my head, it was because I thought that at the time. I had this sort of narrative about my dad that just wasn't true. And I had become, I realized what I had done is I had this surface level relationship with my dad. And I have huge amounts of guilt for that for some reason. And I was on holiday. I remember it was past lockdown and I was in Portugal. And so I had this like wave of like guilt and sadness towards my dad. So I sent him a message and I just said, sent him a text message saying, I just want you to know that you're the greatest dad in the world. And I love you for everything. And a reply came back and he said, I feel the same way.

22:03I can be proud of to be your dad. And it was mad. It was like, and it was like this dam had just opened and the water, it was like, that was the only thing that needed to be said. And our relationship from then has just been totally different just because I said that. It's crazy. It's so powerful. I said, you know, that, that really just like resonates so much because it was the same thing. Like that one moment of me deciding to break the play, to break like the old way of the two of us doing things. And, and, you know, my dad's coming home from work and I'm like, I'm gonna give him a hug. And that hug just led to this like slow development of a deeper relationship between the two of us.

22:43But it takes that, you know, one individual to decide, okay, I'm not going to do it the old way. Let me try something new and see how the other person responds. That's pretty powerful. That's so funny that in this sort of moment that you had that everything changed for you, it was like everything in that moment. How old are you at the time? You must have been 23, 22? Yeah, I was young, 23. And I'm 37 now, getting old. And I just feel like, yeah, I just feel really fortunate that I had the resilience to like literally pick myself up off the floor. Someone's listening right now, right? Who is feeling the same way, right?

23:16They're either feeling anxious or maybe they're feeling depressed. Their OCD is through the roof, right? And we're living in this current climate where that is just rife. It's like a lava going through cities and towns and villages across the world. Trying to sit there and accept it. is the hardest thing in the world to do. Totally. So how do you accept it? And it's interesting too, because to be able to access your peace, you have to do something that's incredibly hard and the world is constantly conditioning you towards easy, easy, easy, easy. Like we're living in this like, you know, Uber Eats, like quick society, like everything is fast, everything is 15 minutes away.

23:54And, you know, AI is at the same time making everything easier. Like, so when you want to deal with the problems that are happening inside of your, inside of your mind and heart, it challenges you to do the hard thing, which is to feel. And it's tough, but that's, you know, what a lot of these practices, whether you're talking to a therapist or whether you're starting to meditate, like a lot of that is pointing your attention inward and building resilience to whatever it is that you're witnessing there. Okay. So if I'm listening right now and I'm going, right, I'm going to listen to my anxiety.

24:25I'm going to feel my pain. I'm going to feel it right now. What is going to happen in that process? You know, it depends on the individual. I mean, some of us have experienced serious trauma. You know, like when I think about what's my trauma, my trauma was the trauma of poverty, but then other people have faced horrible things. So it really depends on the individual. And I think some people, they're going to witness the arising and passing away of the emotion, like anxiety is here. And then it just like evaporates over time. and other people may experience that with greater intensity. Like the anxiety comes up and it's like, whoa, it almost feels too intense.

25:01But then you challenge yourself without overwhelming yourself, right? Like you let yourself feel, like for me, like my big challenge was, let me feel the emotions for like 10, 15 minutes before I turn on the TV, before I like go and do something else. So those little bits, you know, they make you stronger over time. We're kind of living, and I want to hear your thoughts on this. I feel like we're living in this sort of world of comfort. Yeah. Yeah. We're so comfortable. Super cozy. Super cozy. We don't, we like, we want to stay who we are and anything that's more difficult. If you're a heroin addict, right?

25:34The reason why you don't get out of the addiction for a lot of reasons, but one of them is because it's much easier staying in the addiction than getting out of the addiction. Right. And I feel like that's what life is. We're addicted to these comforts and we're addicted to ourselves and we don't want to change that. But changing yourself is the way that you grow. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's really hard. I feel like it takes a lot of resilience and courage and also like an acceptance of risk because when you decide to change your life, you're basically closing a chapter. It's like this chapter is done and it's even though that chapter may have been hard, it was familiar.

26:08So like a lot of people like to just, you know, stay in the same sort of saga of their life because when you open up a new one, you start making some big decisions that are going to affect your life in a positive way, you're, you're opening up a whole new field of existence for yourself. Yeah. But I feel like you've done that throughout your life a little bit because, you know, you spoke to me about the fact that you thought you were a little bit of a jerk. You changed it. Yeah. You know, you were taking drugs. You were deep in that you changed it. You've always been that person. It feels like that you're changed, changed, changed when you feel like things aren't right.

26:39Yeah. And I feel like it's something that I've learned too. Like if you want to have peace within yourself and if you want to have peace in your relationship, you can't become too attached to your own identity. It's not like, oh, like Jamie always loves this one drink. Jamie always loves this one dish. Like, no, dude, like I'm sure what you liked 10 years ago is way different than what you like now, you know? And that's okay. That's actually good. So my thing is like, why not be the designer and curator of my life? And as my preferences change, good. I'll just let them go. It's because I remember growing up with so many people who were like, I never change.

27:14I'll always be like this. And now when I think back about that, I'm like, that sucks. That's a tough way to live. So what big things do you think you've changed about yourself? I think the biggest, biggest thing I've changed about myself. I mean, I try my best to put my growth first. Like that is just so key to me. Like I know that from, And it's funny because I talk about it sometimes in financial terms because I majored in economics. But to me, meditating is the best investment I've ever made. Far better than the S &P 500. Anything that you can do like that in terms of the stock market. But meditating is just by far the best investment.

27:55So I meditate my two hours a day. Before I came here to hang out with you, I meditated for an hour. Then hit the gym, relaxed for a while, and now we're hanging out. when I afterwards at some point in this evening, I'll meditate for another hour. And both of those moments when I give myself the opportunity to meditate and not have any input, just observe the reality of this, of change that's happening within the body, that helps me just let go, detach. It helps me become more aware and it just helps with really clear, compassionate effect of decision-making.

28:33What do you think it means when someone says, I love you? And what does love mean to you? Would you say? I mean, so it's a multifaceted answer. So like, I think between two people, love is me saying how important you are to me. It's like, you are so important to me. Like whether it's your partner or your parents or your friends, like, it's like, you are an essential part of my life. and I'm so grateful for you. And I want to show up for you. When you think about love on the highest levels, like as in like unconditional love, and you think about, you know, figures like Jesus and the Buddha, you know, people who like took humanity to the ultimate level, like full development.

29:21They were the type of beings that looked upon the world and saw no one as an enemy, right? They look at the whole world and all they have is compassion. And to me, that's the highest level of love is when you literally are wishing upon all beings, like may they be happy, may they be peaceful, may they be free. And when you're in a relationship, you get to practice that because unconditional love is very difficult. It's very challenging to always love someone selflessly and want to support them. But you get to practice elements of that while you're in a relationship with someone. You've written four books.

30:01Your new book is coming out, How to Love Better. You've sold over 1.5 million. Yeah, getting closer too. So I would say that your output is better than mine. I don't know. You're crushing it, dude. And you're meditating. Do you feel what I mean? I'm doing something wrong here. I want to talk about your work because how would you describe your work? Would you say you're an author, a thinker? Yeah, I'm an author. And what I do is I put out material for self-reflection, you know, so I like to write about personal transformation. I like to write about relationships. And the things that I put out are things that I'm reflecting on in my own life.

30:42And my hope is that it helps people build some degree of self-awareness, whether they agree with what I'm saying or not, you know, but I'm hoping that when you read a little piece or you read an essay, it makes you think about your own life. own life and it helps you sort of clarify, you know, like, how am I going to move forward? And to me, it's like, that's the service that I'm trying to bring to the world because honestly, like all this personal transformation work, like it's dope. Like I really enjoy it. I like being able to be a better husband, to be, you know, to treat myself better, to treat my parents better and to like put out work that helps people that feels like a life well lived.

31:21So to me, it just feels important to just keep doubling down on the thing that it gave fruit to all that. What was your first social media post? Do you remember it? Oh, that's a good question. I don't even know if I remember exactly what it was, but I just remember I started the account in 2012 as Young Pueblo, but it was just a personal account. And Young Pueblo, it was a name that just came to me. It just means young people. and when I started posting really as like an, as a writer, that was in 2014. And that's when I started, you know, I started sharing little essays. Eventually that morphed into sharing, you know, little poems and images.

32:02And I think around like 2016 is when like things really started taking off. How to Love Better is your new book. Yeah. Talk to me about it. Why, why the tied to why the book? You know, it was, it was shocking to me because when I started, like I went into meditating, I started building better habits. And a lot of that was because I felt a lot of inner chaos inside of myself. And when I started doing this work, it was shocking me that I was like, this is helping my relationship get better. I'm like, and I didn't go into meditating to be a better partner. I went into meditating to like save myself, you know, to like help myself.

32:43And, and then I started seeing like, and especially as, as my wife started meditating, she started meditating about a year after. And I had realized like the first six years of our relationship, cause we got together really young. We got together when she was 18 and I was 19. The first six years were like living in a hurricane. Like it was just madness. Like we were, we, we like zero emotional maturity, like no self-awareness with the either of us. It was just a constant blame game. It was like, how can I make this tension that I feel inside of me your fault, right? Even if it has nothing to do with you and we're constantly playing that game.

33:22And it was the type of situation where like, we, we loved each other, but we did not know how to care for each other. And that just made the, the environment really difficult for us. So we would like be together, we'd break up, get back together. And then we were like, all right, fine. Let's just be miserable together. Cause we just like, didn't, didn't know how to take care of our relationship. And when we started meditating, little bits of self-awareness started growing. And it was like, wait, actually, I'm not mad at you. I just woke up and I just didn't feel good. And I was trying to find a reason for that to be your fault, even though it really has nothing to do with you.

34:01And as the self-awareness started growing, it was like, you know, there are definitely going to be times where you need to apologize, where you make a mistake and, you know, you have to correct it. But a lot of the times it's just tension trying to make a reason to make itself bigger. And of course, the person that is in proximity to you, who's closest to you, they're a clear target. So we started realizing that and a lot of the arguments over time decreased. It's funny that in relationships, right? Where when you're having a tough time internally, you blame it on the easiest thing in front of you.

34:35Oh yeah. So it's either, oh, It's definitely not me. You're fucking kidding me. It's not me over here. It's like, it's either, okay, people go, I need to change jobs. If I change a job, it's going to, oh, maybe I changed, I'll live in a different country. Okay. It's the relationship. It's definitely the relationship. And that's what happens. And you blame it on, typically when you're, you blame it on your partner. Yeah. That's one of my most, what you were saying there, that was probably one of my most popular posts. Let's, it goes something along the lines. Like, you know, you can change locations, you can change jobs.

35:05you can change partners, you can change friends, but nothing is going to affect you as positively as you changing yourself and figuring out what is the thing that's causing you tension in your mind. One of your chapter titles is The Art of Arguing. Yeah, that's a fun one. I think I've mastered it.

35:34Yeah, that's, you know, it's tricky, right? So like a lot of people, we have just watched too many romantic comedies and we think like a relationship has one major challenge and then you live happily ever after, but it's just not going to be like that. A lot of the healthiest relationships will have arguments for years. And, you know, you can just have arguments over and over and over again. That doesn't mean you're in a bad relationship. It's very normal because that's what happens when you're in proximity to someone, whether you're like, you know, with your family or with, you know, living with a roommate or living with a friend or, you know, living with your partner, like egos, they rub up against each other and they cause friction, right?

36:14Like egos are rough. So you have to handle the argument and understand that the argument is an opportunity. It's revealing that there's some distance between the two. There's some miscommunication, some wall that if you approach it with the aim to understand your partner, then it's going to be a lot more productive than trying to win the argument. And I think that's what people do all the time. It's like, both people are trying to win. They both lose. Why did you want to write a book about love? I just feel like it's so pervasive. It's so pervasive. And I think it's really important to keep highlighting the importance of personal growth and how much that affects the harmony of a relationship, because those are the two worlds that I straddle.

37:01And those are just the two things that I'm experiencing. I'm like, as I keep meditating my relationship, it's better. And I want to take those truths that I've been learning, you know, this truth of impermanence that we were talking about earlier and how attachment makes everything difficult. I want to highlight that and explore that in the book so that people see, you know, that you need to have a degree of flexibility. And instead of focusing yourself on attachments and expectations, let's be vocal about what our needs are and make clear commitments to each other. Because through commitments, that's when you can really support each other's happiness.

37:35Do you think as humans, we're meant to be with one partner? I think it's really case by case. I think it's really case by case. I mean, I've seen so many, you know, I think some of the wise, wisest people that I've seen, like I have these two meditation teachers who are just like weapons. They're just like, just so like highly cultivated individuals. You know, one's been meditating since he was 24 and he's like 76 now. And, um, you know, he's probably meditated like 50 ,000 plus hours. And like, I did a rough calculation of how much I've meditated and it's like about like 12 ,000 hours. And - That means you're an expert there.

38:16No, not even, I need like 40 ,000 more. Are you serious? Totally, totally. I have so much more to cultivate. But, you know, him and his wife have like just such a loving relationship. I mean, they've been married for so long, like, you know, probably like 40 years. Same thing with this other teacher as well. Like him and his wife have been married for like 30 years. And I think there's this, you know, people need different things. Everyone's gonna have different situations. but I do think it's really important to understand that like sometimes we're in good relationships and we're looking for better relationships, right?

38:50Or we're looking for something perfect. And it's like, are you really going to throw away something good for something that's incrementally better, like a tiny bit better? And then if you're trying to like, if you think that your happiness is going to come from another person, you're already lost. Your happiness has to come from within you. The The other person can only add to your happiness. And then, you know, that's the other element of it too, is like people fighting old age and decay. It's like, there's something really valuable and fun too, of just like, let's just get old together, you know?

39:21And that's my, like, when I think about my relationship with my wife, like it would be sick for the both of us to be like 85 year old, like old little people, you know? I'm like still jamming and meditating and hanging out. Like that would be so much fun. In relationships, there's always a time when you, should break up. And a lot of people don't do that. They just kind of - No, they drag it out. They drag it out. Nice and long too. Like, yeah. I have some friends who like, they knew they were supposed to break up with somebody like two years and two years before, and then it just takes them so long to get it done.

39:53It's such a process. Why don't we do it? Fear. It's just fear, fear, you know? And it's also because there are some bad things about the relationship that you know are undeniable, but there are also some good things. So it's like just tough to make that full break for people. And I think just like, there's also, I mean, there's so many elements to it, but also like the economic element where it's like, you lived in the same apartment in New York city. And now you have to like, you know, both make your own way and like, it's hard out there. So it's, it's tough. It's tough to really break and open up that new chapter.

40:26But ultimately, like, if you know, in your heart that you don't want to be with this person, like you have to give them back their time, right? Let them be free. Let them be out there and live and sort of go through their healing process and go and just like, you know, build that next chapter for themselves. So I think it's a disservice to both people when you know that it's not a good fit. You got to cut it. I heard a thing that apparently when you break up with someone, it's like grieving them. And so your body releases a pheromone, which basically makes you feel like you miss them. And that's when people break up, they get back together, break up, get back together, because you feel like this person is lost.

41:03They're dead. They're gone. I have, have you ever heard this? I've heard this once years ago and I haven't been able to source it, but I heard somewhere that whatever the length of the relationship is, sometimes it takes about half of that time to fully, fully break up. And it's, I've been watching that in people who do break up, you know, friends who are close, close of mine. And like, if they were together for three years, like it does kind of take like a year and a half to like fully let it go. Do you want to know where the reference is from where sex in the city oh i love that the fact that you even know that too is amazing jemima put it in and i just said she just are you kidding me in capitals you couldn't believe it i love it that we're trying to be so profound i know this time i think i'm like where is this coming from and you know it's so funny because we my wife and i went through a period where she was like forcing me to watch sex in the city with her and it was like all we did in like 2013.

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44:10Are you religious? No. No. You know, it's interesting.

44:18I take the Buddha's teaching very seriously. When I look upon, like I really like history. And when I look at history, I think the Buddha over all other human beings understood the mind the best. Like understood the mind, even better than modern therapists. Like the Buddha just understood the mind profoundly well. And not only understood the mind and how it works, but how to end suffering. um but even though i take his teaching very seriously and i practice his teaching like that's where vipassana originates from from the buddhist teaching i don't really think of myself as a buddhist why i just it just seems unnecessary and i think even like even when i look at his teaching you know like he i don't even think he was trying to start a religion he was just like he's like are you suffering okay this is what you do to stop suffering and he didn't you know that's what we human beings do like we take someone's teaching and we build a whole complex around it just seems unnecessary to me.

45:13Okay. So to go deep then, so what do you think happens when we die? Do you really want to know? I really want to know. Okay. When you die, the last moment, like the last breath of your life is really important. Like how you're feeling in that moment. If you're full of fear, if you're full of peace, you'll end up connecting to another life that is on that same vibration. So like, if you're really full of fear and so tense or very angry, then you kind of just end up getting pushed into an angry existence. Or if you're calm, peaceful, you know, just observing the reality, then you just get pushed over into another life that's calm and peaceful.

46:01And it's interesting, right? So like, I've never seen my past lives or anything like that, I also don't really care about them. And it's not like something I'm like trying to worry about. Like, I know that in this life I've been suffering and I need to like, you know, put a lot of work in, but something about my relationship with my wife, it's just eerie, man. It's eerie. It's like, like when I, as soon as I came in contact with her, it was like a magnet. Like I couldn't even fight it. I would, I tried to fight it. I tried to fight it multiple times and I just couldn't, couldn't fight it. And then, and I never understood why, like why we needed to be together.

46:40Cause we were so different. Like our backgrounds were so different. And when, when we started meditating, it became clear over time. I was like, Oh, I was like, we've been doing this. Like we've been doing this for lifetimes. Like this is like our thing. And that's why when we came across each other, we're like, Oh, we, we don't have an option, but to be together, we have to tolerate this period. And then when we started meditating, Yeah, like the harmony in our relationship started growing so much. But to me, like that to me is kind of like the proof. It's like, it feels like an ethereal, otherworldly connection that I can't even fight if I wanted to.

47:16And I'm down, I'm down for the journey. Like I love being with her, hope to be with her in the next lifetime too. And yeah, just keep it going. Dude, that is incredible. Yeah. Yeah. I love that you had, nobody really asked that, but I was like, let me just tell them the truth. Let me tell them what I actually think. Like explain the silent retreat for me because my friend's just done it. Oh yeah. Yeah. He said it's the most wild experience. It's really wild and it's very, and wild as in like incredibly tamed and silent. Like it's, it's like, there's no, you don't, you don't really get much input.

47:51You're just like, you're there and they guide you through a meditation. but what's really interesting about it is that like you're, you know, disconnected from the outside world. You don't have your phone. You don't have your laptop. People aren't calling you. You're there with another group, with the same group of people that's also receiving the meditation instructions. You're meditating like 10, 11 hours a day. And, and then this, especially that, that, that style of Vipassana that I practice, the point of it isn't just to automatically make you like, you know, blissful or joyful. It's to like help get all that heavy stuff that's inside you out.

48:28And then because of that, you become happier and freer. So through that process, like, I mean, honestly, it was just the hardest thing I've ever did. Like it was so hard that I spent probably the first seven, eight days just thinking about leaving and like literally looking at the guy who gave me a ride and trying to figure out if he was going to leave or not. So that I'm like, cause I need to get my ride back. I need to go, you know, get out of this place, but where in the world are you? So I was in Washington state. That's in the West coast of the United States in the middle of nowhere. And this was before Uber.

49:01And I'm so like, and now these days I use Uber all the time, right? Constantly. I'm so grateful Uber didn't exist because if Uber existed, I would have been out of there. I would have just grabbed a cab and been like, all right, this is not for me. And that would have led to me living an entirely different life. Like no writing, no nothing. No way. Yeah. Get out of here. Totally. Totally. If Uber existed, I would have been out of there. Cause it was just, it was so hard to be there. But then when I saw that there was no way out, like my ride wasn't going anywhere. And then the last, so that was day eight and then day nine and day 10, I was like, all right, I'm here.

49:35Let me just, you know, I'm just going to do the meditating. I mean, I was doing it before that too. And what I, what I noticed the shock was when I got out of there and I got back and I saw my, I saw my friend Lennon and, um, I just like, I felt so open and so like my mind felt so much lighter than ever before. And I had never felt like, like my mind wasn't just, it wasn't chaotic. And I was like, what is going on? I'm like, why do I feel so good? And because I didn't really understand the, like the technique or the process. And I spent most of that first course fighting the process. I ended up signing up to another one in September of 2012.

50:20I did my second one because I was like, I feel, I can't deny that I feel a lot better. So I got to throw myself back in there because I got, I got a lot more work to do. What comes up when you're in that experience, when you suddenly, every distraction is gone. You don't have, we don't have our phones. We don't have this. We don't have that. We don't have TV, nothing. You're just stuck in your own thoughts. What happens? Yeah. So your sensory experience goes through the roof, right? Because we're constantly numbed down by input, literally by our phones, the TV, the things that we're consuming over time as you're meditating.

50:55Like I remember, you know, after the meditation sessions, I'd walk on the path to go back to the room and I'm looking down on the ground and I'm like, can I, I'm like, can I, I can like see more rocks than before. I'm like, what the hell? Like, I'm like, and I'm, I look up at the trees and I'm like, my mind is literally processing more leaves than I did in the past. If that even makes sense. It was like, I could see more of the actual tree. And it was like, my senses were not only heightened, but I was calm with it. I was just like, cool. Like I can just see more stuff. And the really cool thing, man, is like, and you know, a lot of people experience this when they meditate this particular technique, but you spend the first three days just being aware of the breath and you do that to calm and concentrate the mind.

51:41But what that ends up doing is that you can feel, you know, then the last seven days of the course, you turn your attention away from the breath to feel the body. And then you can feel the body at a whole nother level. Like you will not even believe, like there are times when I'm meditating where my body feels like a rushing river of atoms. Get out of here. Get out of here. So like, no lie. And it's not even like special to me. Like a lot of people who meditate, they just, when you elevate the amount of concentration and calmness of the mind, you point that attention to the body. Like my hand doesn't really feel like my hand.

52:18I can feel the like energy and the vibrations moving through the fingers. And, you know, it just feels like I see the solidness of it, but it doesn't feel solid. And it's, you know, that's not the point of it. It's more so the point is that that shows you and introduces you to that truth of impermanence that's pervasive throughout the universe. So like your problem as a human being, all of us as human beings, we struggle with attachment and embracing impermanence is the opposite of attachment. Break that down for me though. What do you mean by that? So attachment as in you craving for things to exist in a very particular way.

53:04Like you want your relationship to be exactly like this. You want your parents to always live forever. You want to always eat your favorite foods every single day. you want everything that's pleasurable to happen over and over and over again flawlessly. That's not going to happen. That's not how life works. We live in a universe where everything is constantly in motion, constantly changing. That means that at the atomic level, the biological level, the cosmological level, we live in this almost river of change. And when you fight that river of change, life is going to hurt. And that's what attachment is.

53:40have you ever had any interactions with you know people who follow you who you've had a huge impact on their lives and they've said that to you man i've heard some wild stories yeah i there's this one woman i went to i went to a conference this is about a year a year ago maybe a year and a half in san francisco speaking at this conference and she comes up to me and she told me that the the second book, Clarity and Connection, she was like, this book saved my life. And I was like, what? She was like, yeah. Like I was, she was like, I was down bad. And like, and she was telling me her story and everything.

54:19And I just like, I was just kind of like in shock. I was like, what? And then my question to her, I was like, are you okay now? She's like, yeah, I'm okay now. And I was like, I wish you the absolute best moving forward. And just, I think that's in, you know, it's interesting because I use that, that moment inspires me to tell other people, like, if you feel like you have to write, you better write because it's not just a good act for you to put forward your authenticity and good for you, but you don't, you don't know whose life you might save because they might pick up your book and the connection will be made that helps them just put themselves back together.

54:59When was that first moment you started writing? after so I never I never thought I was going to be a writer I when I so like you know because I grew up poor and was just constantly absorbing conditioning from society my thought when I went to college was oh I need to become an investment banker like it's time to stack money you know and I like went into it you know majored in econ I'm glad I majored in econ um but I never ever ever planned on being a writer. I've always like, I've enjoyed reading, but I never thought of myself as like, oh, let me have fun writing this essay or anything like that.

55:37And after the third 10 day course, I was having trouble falling asleep that night, you know, the night when it was like wrapping up and we're going to leave the next day. And I was like, I just felt my intuition being like, you got to write, you got to write, start writing, start writing. And I knew I'm like, okay, I'm not perfectly healed. I don't know everything. I'm not fully wise. I have a long way to go. Like I'm literally just getting started, but there's nothing wrong with reflecting, reflecting openly. And I was like, let me just, you know, see if other people are connecting with the message.

56:14And this was funny because like, it was, you know, 2014 when I really started sharing and that was the beginning of like, you know, Instagram's like really starting to take off. And then that has a massive effect on the wellness world. And just like the wellness world just starts blowing up from there. So it was a mixture of right place, right time for me too.

56:38You must have helped so many people. And I love that what you say that about if you have that urge to write or just to get whatever out, it's going to help somebody else. That connection is what we need. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And it's definitely like, I feel like sometimes that feeling isn't coming from like a, it's not coming from a selfish place. It's also coming from like, you know, someone else needs it. Someone else needs that point. I mean, think, I think about the books that have helped me connect dots and have helped me like, you know, reading Siddhartha's Herman Hess. Like, man, that book taught me so much about life and it taught me how to write.

57:17when I started writing, I went back and started reading all of Herman Hess's works, but I started reading it for an eye for structure. And I was like, how's this guy using his commas? How's this guy using his semicolons? Like, how is he forming stories and putting sentences together? And I learned a lot because I, you know, didn't have money for like writing school or anything like that. So I'm like, I just got to have to figure it out. But Siddhartha by Herman Hess, have you heard of Jiru Krishnamurti? Yes. Yeah. He's dude, he's a weapon too. He's just like, so he'll just give it to you straight.

57:50And like, I think that that's why his, he has a certain degree of popularity, but not incredibly popular because he's just like, let me tell you exactly what's going on in the world and in your mind. But he wrote this journal that was, it's called Krishnamurti to himself. And it's the last thing he wrote. Like, I think he died like six months after that. And it is incredible, incredible because it synthesizes his whole teaching down to, it's just like in these, you know, few hundred pages of essays and it's super powerful.

58:28Man, I can sit with you all day, but I, but I, you have to do a part two. Oh, please. We can keep, we can keep going. Man, I know you're over here and you said today's the first day, your jet lag's not too bad, which is, which is a good thing. I just want to say before I get into the last eight questions, I really appreciate it. I know how busy you are and I know how sore No, likewise. Are you kidding me? I'm a huge fan. I'm so glad that we're hanging out. I love that. Okay. I've got eight questions for you. Ready? Yeah, let's do it. What's a saying or phrase that always makes you smile or cheers you up?

59:02I think it's, you know, it's just not going to last. It's just not going to last. I think that just helps me so much. And I'm like, ah, I relax. I feel the tension leaving the body. same as me best compliment anyone's ever given you

59:19probably from my buddy Anwar my buddy Anwar is like super fit and like he's just like literally the coolest person in New York City and um he like cuts Lewis Hamilton's hair and like you know he's just he's just the man like he's he's a model he cuts hair he's in the fashion world he's also extremely fit extremely fit and he just you know has always supported me with my fitness So when, like, when he tells me that I look good, he's like, you look good. But he's like, how do you feel? Do you feel good? I'm like, I feel great. And then it's just like that compliment from, from, from him just means the world.

59:52Love that. What scares you most about yourself? I think sometimes I worry that I'm too busy. I worry that like, it scares me that, um, I'm grateful to have opportunities and to be busy, but I worry that like, you know, I'm not spending enough time with my parents. Yeah. That's the big thing I have at the moment. Yeah. maybe it's our similar age i don't know why you start so we feel the temporariness everything feels very temporary so it's like i look at my folks and i'm like damn like you know yeah man that's exactly what i'm feeling at the moment it's like yeah it feels temporary it feels it doesn't feel forever anymore for whatever reason yeah yeah i feel the same way when was the last time you cried and why dude i found this weird pattern in my mind okay and this is like pretty corny.

1:00:37I probably like watching Rogue One, like, you know, Rogue One, right? So, so there's something and I find this over and over and I don't know what it is about my mind, but whenever there's like a movie and there's some act of self-sacrifice and people are doing it for the greater good. And it's like, they just, you know, they know they're walking into annihilation, but they're doing it because there's a bigger mission that just gets me. what's something you can't let go of uh oh definitely my girl i feel like well i'm working on it i'm working on it but man that attachment is big what's your guilty pleasure i said this once before and i caught some slack for it and it was in the uk the guy was not happy when i said this it was love island it's just like yeah dude i've i've seen every season of love island And I just, it's so silly, but good production.

1:01:36I'm just, I'm here for it. I'm not even kidding. I just started watching Love Island All-Stars. I'm going to start tonight. I was talking about, I was like, I was like the production is like, I'm obsessed. I keep saying this like streamers, right? Linear TV had to make really good content. Yeah. Like they make really good content because there's no subscribers, nothing. It just has to make good content. Streamers just are looking for subscribers. So they just make anything. The production of Love Island All-Stars is unbelievable. Do you know the homie who's in the booth who's always making all the jokes?

1:02:09Do you know him? Yeah. He's the man. So that's my... I know him quite well. My only qualm with Love Island is like this guy, bring him out of the booth. Like he needs to be there interviewing people. He needs to be there for the reunion. Like he's so funny. Like he just needs to be more a part of the show. Man, he will love that. Yeah. He's a great dude. He's amazing. What turns you off? Oh, dude. Um, meanness. Like when I see people being mean, I just like, I can't, I can't be around that. I like, uh, that's, that's one of the things, like I met this, um, amazing guy the other day, uh, Sahil Bloom, and he was, I can see him so naturally and genuinely just being kind to every person he interacted with.

1:02:57And I was like, he's the man. He doesn't need to be nice to anybody, but he is. And I feel like that's a quality that I always look for in a friend. 100%. Yeah. What do you like most about yourself? I think I like the quality that I like and I've seen repeatedly is that sometimes I do move a little slow before I make a big move. But then once I know the move is right, I'm just like a juggernaut. I just like, I just keep going. What's your favorite quote? I totally have this. I've got some of them here for you as well. My favorite quote in general, right? Not like mine. Yeah. It's Judo Krishnamurti's A change in one is a change in millions.

1:03:40Yeah. That's good. Yeah, that's deep and good. I love that one. Man, I just want to say a big thank you. I want everyone, honestly, I want everyone, we're going to leave the links to your books and everything and your social media following, not that you need it. I mean, it's through the roof. It's crazy. I just really appreciate it. And thank you so much. This has been amazing in every single way. Thank you so much, Jamie. It's a massive honor. Thank you. Thank you so much for having a great company. It's been amazing.

1:04:11What a guy. What a guy. You liked it? Every time we talk. We just said everything at the same time then. Oh, it's just brilliant. Bad practice from me. Real thing. I loved his bad practice. You're just doing the job and I'm just like muttering. Muttering. Sorry. Great. Great. He, he does a 30 day meditation course. That's wild. Do you think you could not talk for 30 days? I think I would have to get into it. The first week would be death. I think it'd be really hard, but then maybe my mind would settle. I don't know. Yeah. But the first week would be horrendous. And what do you think your voice would sound?

1:04:47You know, like when I wake up in the morning, the first noise I make is often like, you know, maybe it would change when it came up. Maybe I lose my voice. Be quite good for some people. Guys, I hope you enjoyed the episode and I'm glad you stuck around for it. If you haven't already subscribed to our show, please do. We would love it if you could do that. Also, if you could send us a message of what you think of the show, what you like, you dislike, what guests we should have next. We want to hear that. I love reading them. Yeah, we really love reading them. So you can send them into our DMs at Great Company Podcast on Instagram or you can send us an email.

1:05:17Great Company at jampopproductions.co.uk. We want to hear from you. We want to hear everything. And of course, we're going to see you next week on Wednesday for another episode of Great Company.

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