MYLES SMITH: ON DIVORCE, RACISM AND HOW HE KEPT ME GOING ON MY ULTRA-MARATHON RUN

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2:16Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang, and this is Great Company.

2:24hi Jamie hi Jemima how are you I'm well how are you I'm really good actually okay listen enough of that because today's episode is really going to be amazing enough of that enough of that uh today's episode is going to be really amazing we have Miles Smith uh on the podcast how excited are you beyond excited tell me about your journey in terms of the love of Miles because it's deep it's real deep it's real deep so I first heard Miles's music last year. And when I was on Radio One, and I said that I think he's going to be a real star. Cut to this year. He's won the Brit Rising Star Award. When I did my marathon run, his song Stargazing, which has had millions and millions of streams, got me through the run.

3:05That was the first song on the playlist. I played it over and over and over again when I was running. Especially in those hard times. Miles is like one of these really unique individuals that kind of music kind of found him in a way. He left university, he was running a business, he realized he wasn't happy. And so then went into music, put his music on TikTok on social media, it blew up. Hence now, Miles Smith is probably one of the rising stars within the UK music scene. He also reading his, his like background, he just seems like the type of person who everything he tries, he does pretty well in.

3:40He does really well. He had a business. He was like, do quite well in like the corporate world and then was like no i really want to pursue singing yeah and then it's just absolutely smashed that he's absolutely smashed it he also um has experienced racism he has had loads of ups and downs in his life he wrote a song about his father who left when he was a kid my first heartbreak my first heartbreak part of the new ep which is out now exactly so we're going to talk about all of these things in this episode are you ready for this i I can't wait. And I also can't wait because we've been trying to find time because he is such a busy man because he is doing so, so well.

4:17But we've been trying to find a time to get Jamie and Miles together for such a long time. And it's finally, it's finally come. He's booked out to 2027. So this is the moment. Yeah, he actually is. We finally got him. If you haven't subscribed to this show yet, please do subscribe. It does us absolute wonders. I cannot tell you. Let us know what guests you want next and anything you want to tell us about the show, slide into our DMs at Great Company Podcast, or you can send us an email. Greatcompany at jamperproductions.co.uk. Are you ready for this? I sure am. Enjoy this episode of Miles Smith on Great Company.

4:51Hey, I'm Miles Smith, and I'm in Great Company.

5:00I interviewed Brad Pitt. And before I went in, I was in my head thinking, okay it's Brad Pitt he's probably going to go for a high he's going to go for like a high five he's going to go for like you know that one where you where you sort of go high five but you grip each other's thumbs and you pull into each other and probably because of my ADHD I laser focused into that so I walk into the room and I went in my head that's Brad Pitt like I went I went up to him I went up to him to give him the high five and he put his fist out and I completely panicked and grabbed it and went, don't know. And he went, cool man.

5:39I was like, oh, fuck, this is not good. The funniest part of this story is I've never heard someone describe a dap. Like a high five where you grab each other's thumbs. Stop it. That is wild. We are from different backgrounds. Like, fuck me. I'm fine for you grabbing each other's thumbs I'm fine I love that's what you took out of it what do you like with first impressions do you get awkward I'm really weird in social situations are you sometimes I'm I don't think you are at all I'm much better one to one than I am in new groups I like mask a lot like like half the time I'm stressing um really yeah yeah I've like I've always got PJ my day-to-day manager like with me like all times like he's gone from like day-to-day manager to just like life like my life person but um yeah if I walk into certain situations like I find it like incredibly like um stressful uh in new situations but I like I just like I oh I put myself out there way too much to the point that I overdo it so that I can't be anxious.

7:01Wow. It's exposing yourself to it. Yeah. Yeah. So just explain that. It's like a social anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. I get crazy social anxiety, but I hide it really well. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I had terrible social anxiety in my 20s. It was really strange. And I don't know why I got it. I think I know why I got it. I got it because I was being someone I wasn't a lot of the time. And it got so bad that I just never, I never went for one-on-one lunches. I couldn't, I was much better in groups. I couldn't do, I couldn't do intimate sessions unless it was with a stranger. If it was a stranger, I found it really comfortable.

7:40But if it was one of my friends, I couldn't do it. So actually I became really lonely because I couldn't go and see any of my friends. And only in group situations I could then like talk about, I could be like loud and because I would mask actually what I was actually feeling. That's so incredible. And that's interesting how you find one-on-ones. Yeah. Yeah. Because one-on-ones is more intimate. Yeah, which I find... That's more exposing. I find it the opposite. I feel like in groups, I don't know what I should be doing. So if I'm in groups, I'm like, should I be talking right now? Should I not be talking?

8:08Am I talking too much? Should I just be standing here? That joke wasn't funny, but should I laugh because everyone else is laughing? I'm constantly thinking, how do I seem normal within this group? Whereas one-to-one, if I'm uncomfortable, I'm happy to say to someone like, okay, I'm super anxious at the moment. I'll just get it out the start from the gates. But in a group, I'm just like, I'll just go with the flow. But the flow is not a flow. It's like me reading every single thing going on. I find that so amazing when musicians say this because so many people are feeling the same way and feeling that awkward.

8:45I mean, I think, I actually generally believe that the majority of us have some slight bit of social anxiety. And whether that's because of social media or whatever it is, it's amplified it, but I think we do. And when you see people who their job is to go on stage in front of thousands and thousands of people and be this entertainer, but actually they also feel those awkward moments, that is so powerful for these people listening. Yeah, it's weird. On stage, I feel because of the songs I put out and I think the community that I've built, I feel like we're all fucking weirdos. So it's like when we're in those rooms, it's like we're all thinking the same thing.

9:22is like, we don't know how to act. Like, you don't know how to be an audience member. I don't know how to be a singer. Let's just have fun. I strongly believe, like, as an artist, I shouldn't sing at people. I should be singing with people. And that's like the sort of philosophy of our shows. Like, we don't want to perform at people. We want it to be a thing that we're all involved in. And like, throughout the show, we make a real intentional effort to involve people. And yeah, that's why I think for me being on stage, it just feels like a community thing that we're all figuring it out. And, you know, sometimes I have a crowd on stage.

9:51sometimes my ADHD will take over and I'll stop a song mid-show just to point out the fact I like someone's cap like I they're so wacky sometimes but you know there's I think where was we like Denver or somewhere I just had an an urge to just walk around the crowd and ask people questions about their life because I was bored I was like I'm actually like so bored right now because I've had the longest day ever and I've not spoken to anyone so I'm going to speak to someone right now and I just jumped off stage, just walked through the crowd, started having a conversation with random people. And it's like, I can, and people know me for me.

10:27So, yeah.

10:34You may not want to go ahead if you don't just tell me to F off, right? You know, my parents divorced when I was eight. And I sort of struggled with that a lot. I struggled with it a lot because I, you know, I just, I didn't like it. I just hated it. I hated it. And then throughout my life, I just definitely, I think a lot of my, I do therapy as well, right? Yeah, let's go, man. It's the greatest thing in the world. And I had anxieties and all these different things. And I think a lot of it stems from childhood. How old were you when your dad left? So they got divorced around seven, eight years old.

11:11Same as me. It's pretty similar, but it was like a stretch. So between eight and 11 was a separation. It was very chaotic. probably stuff I won't go into but it wasn't like the traditional we fell out of love like cool it was messy you don't even need to go there a while um so yeah so between 8 and 11 was like the separation period and then by 11 I've not seen him since I was 11. He's never reached out? Uh many a times tried to but not in like uh uh not in a genuine way in a my dad's a complex person um and uh i really hope he's in a good space and i really hope he's grown and done all the healing he needs to do um and the last time we tried contact was probably like 13 14 years old but like i'm truly not angry at this situation or mad i'm just like like i have my life you have yours and i hope you're a better person than you was so vibe how do you someone's listening now and adores you right because i think what you've got to whether you like it or not miles you're sort of people's heroes now really you and people look up to you as a musician as an artist as a hundred percent they do like your music your music for for example when i did my run right the song that i had the entire time was stargazing right i had that that was the one playing all the time as i was running because it got me through it and that for me gives me so many emotions now when i hear it for so many amazing reasons and for other people around the world your music does that for them so someone sitting there thinking oh my god that story similar to me you know my mom left my dad left or my parents divorced what would you say to them uh i'd say one is not your fault that took me so long to like really so long i remember like when it first happened i was like is it because i was born then like then you get to your teen stage of like just being like mad like well like what is it like why why could they not love each other enough to love me enough like you go through i'm sure you went through similar whereas like you just kick yourself every single day um sometimes i thought i was like well if you why do you have me if you yeah why do you have me yeah why do you have me if you don't want to be together 100 100 and it's i think and it's hard when you're young to be able to get to this level of like rationale uh but just going like your parents are also kids having kids and that doesn't mean that they are that they handle things the right way it doesn't mean that you aren't entitled to feel the way that you do um but try not to like place so much of your own value into a divorce yeah because i did that for so long oh man same i did that for so long and when you realize everyone's just a twat and we're figuring this shit out uh it becomes a lot lighter and i didn't start getting into that space until I was like in my sort of late teens but um yeah I think when you realize that they're not like I'm 26 now and I still feel like a fucking fetus do you know what I mean and uh I'm yeah I'm 36 I still I don't know when we grow up then I got to a really scary moment in life where I suddenly realized like shit everyone's guessing yeah yeah tell me about your mom she sounds amazing oh she's the best yeah she's she's the best uh i love her the most in this world she annoys me the most in this world uh she's like the extreme of everything and she's like the most loving person the most like intelligent person like i said the most annoying and frustrating person um but also my mother and you know i i really try to be and and emulate sort of the person that she is which is just like all loving all caring non-judgmental and just a real a real she just has a real big heart and she really cares about people and you know she was unfortunate that she lost her mum quite early on in life and sort of was sort of estranged from her family so like her whole thing's about being able to choose her own family and that's something that I think I've inherited and adopted as well and so we're just big believers in finding people who are like us and making them family what does she do well bring you up do you think she did so much well you know like I was a kid with not a lot of confidence and she made sure that every day I left for school I was confident in who I was you know she was uh the person that if I felt I wasn't enough she'd make me feel like I was enough she was a person if I felt like I was I was doing too well or becoming arrogant she'd tell me you're being an idiot I mean like that's not how I raised you so she was always just a really leveling and grounding person and And just such a phenomenal human being.

15:58And she's a real, she was like a mum through example as well, rather than just teach me lessons. Like she would live the things that she taught. And I thought that was really incredible. And yeah, just someone as well, who's been through so much, like she's been through a horrendous amount, like to the point in which like not many human beings would probably be around for what she's been through in life. and she still has such a big smile and she still is the exact same person and I think that's the part that inspires me so much about her. She is like just a formidable force. I'm like, how the fuck are you still like you?

16:37Like you should be so angry at the world or so annoyed at the world or so mad at life, but you're not. And that's why I try to like always come back to like however I'm feeling like I'm still in a really good spot. How does she make you feel confident? What's the thing she used to say? I, I, I've always had confidence issues like from young. And I think it's part of a parent leaving, like, like we talked about earlier, I think you suddenly start to look inwards and go, it must be me in some capacity. Like I remember in school, I wasn't the coolest, you know, I, I definitely wasn't the most attractive in school.

17:08Like I had the most sporty forehead and I went from like really skinny to like really large, like frequently and never balanced out in between. And, you know, she would always like, she'd always just remind me about what's important. And that's a person I was. And I think from young, I was able through her to understand it's a person you are, like not what you look like, not what you do as a living, not what you do as a job. It's a person you are and to find value in everyone. Like one of the earliest, earliest examples she gave me, like, um, we had like a, a bin man who like came along sort of like once a week and she'd always make conversation and etc and one of my cousins was like oh why are you always talking to the bin man or whatever and she she like pulled us aside and she was i never want to hear that come from your mouth she was like whether someone's doing the bins or whether someone's the fucking prime minister of england or whatever everyone has a value and a purpose and everyone has more behind it and it just so happened like two months or three months down the line when i was moving house this bin guy also had a removals company and came over and did all of our removals for free or whatever.

18:17And it was such like a small thing back then. But to see it play out in real time that like someone's profession does not matter. Like I'm a musician, like that doesn't matter. I'm no more important than doctors or nurses or social workers who I must say probably work a lot harder than me and a lot more hours than me. And it's not seen, you know. and so it's like I always get asked a question in interviews like how do you stay so grounded and and how come you're such a nice guy my theory is we should be asking dickheads why they're dickheads not good people why they're good people um and that's sort of like because that's a harder question to ask yeah it's easy to ask why you're kind yeah it's harder to ask why you're a dickhead 100 and there's many dickheads um and I think we should be looking at them and going why you're a dickhead not miles why you're a nice guy because I think we should all be we should all be nice people is a lot easier.

19:08You know, you wrote My First Heartbreak, which is about your dad. It's just, yeah, it's a beautiful way of processing emotions. Oh, thank you so much. It's such a great song. Thank you. Yeah, no, it was Labour of Love. It took a couple of years to put out. The song that I wrote, yeah, two years ago now. And it's the only song that's taken me so long to release. And I think it was just because it was two things. I I wasn't ready to, I think, come to grips with the fact that, okay, this is going into the world. And then I watched this Kid Cudi documentary, right? I love music documentaries. And in this documentary, he was basically saying that he only realized the gravity of what it meant to release personal stuff when he walked into an interview first time and they start asking him about all the fucked up shit in his life.

19:57And he was like, how do you know all of this? And he was like, fuck, it's my music. and he was like he didn't know that when you put out music it gives people sort of like the license to then ask about it and so I was like fuck I don't want to put out a record that gives people a license to ask about it and I'm not ready to even talk about it myself and so I think for me I wanted to wait until I was like in a position to be happy to talk about it yeah it's it's like baring your soul for people to question yeah yeah ask anything yeah so it's so strange it's so weird that like your life, which is this thing that you keep really private is just like a point of conversation.

20:37And it's different. Like here it's in a meaningful context, but there'll be sometimes like you'll be on a red carpet and they'll be like, oh, so your dad left. And he'll be like, sick. Sick. Cool. Like what do you want from this? Wearing Gucci actually. Or like a fucking razor and they'll be like, oh, what do you have for breakfast? And he'll be like, I don't know, granola. Oh, and your dad left. and we're like, sick, we're doing this. So it's that shit I've had to get accustomed to. How do you navigate that? I don't, that I'm still figuring out. Sometimes I'll just, yeah. Yeah, it's tough. It's really tough.

21:16Can I ask then one more thing? What happened to make you feel ready to release the song? So yeah, so it was a mix of getting to that point. I had loads of conversations with family and friends just because there's real life repercussions that come with everything, right? and you always got to be prepared. But I went to my ginger friend Ed's house and we... Who's that? Ed Sheeran. I hate doing... It still feels really cunty. Like when you're like, so I was with Ed and we were just talking about music and it was, no, I was at his house and me, fuck me. And we were playing loads of my music and I was just playing him through stuff I was excited about or really liked.

21:56And we got to that record and he was like, wow this is like really good and sort of like quite emotional and it was like this like has to be in the world um and i sort of explained the background of it etc and he really helped reshift my mind in that like going from a point of like this song's for me about me mine to this song has a place in the world and it could help a lot of people um and i hadn't really seen music through that lens, although I've seen it at my live shows and people come to see it live. Even just putting a song into the world and just being like, hey, I hope this helps, was a real nice way of reframing my mind and really helped me put it out.

22:37Was there one thing that he said to you that you were just like, oh yeah, I can see it? Yeah, no, for me, he was talking about his own sort of catalog and times that in his sort of like music career, he'd done the same thing. And for me, it was just seeing that sort of like symmetry and like sort of where he started to sort of where I am now and being able to just go like wow like okay this music stuff is yours and it's about you and it's your journey and your story but you've also brought so many people on the way and so many people like resonate with you and so many people have a home with you like add to it.

23:13Because of the type of music that you do and and because you're black right you say that typically people think that you shouldn't be singing that music. Yeah, which is fucking wild. Which is wild, right? And I've heard Ed Sheeran talk about when he was doing his music at the beginning, he was like, well, you're a ginger white guy. You shouldn't be creating that type of music. So there's an interesting connection there, right? Gingers are black, I'm telling you. You've seen it as well, right? Gingers are black, I'm telling you. I've seen this. Yeah, no, it's crazy that we still use boxes to this day.

23:48Wild, isn't it? But, you know, going back to the sociology student in me, it's just, for some humans, it overwhelms their mind to think that we could exist in outsider boxes. You know, it's whether it be, like I said, your gender identity, your sexuality, your race or religion. People are like, wait, that doesn't fit in the boxes that are being prescribed. What the fuck is this? Is that because for humans, it's easier to digest when we're in boxes? Absolutely. but it also is just a means of how we've always controlled the narrative and controlled the world I think and not from like this big brain sort of like I have conspiracies about the world thing but just in the way of like it's easier to be able to I think for some people to comprehend, digest and move forward by prescribing things a box It's so right, it's lazy to put people in boxes right?

24:45It's so lazy When you're hanging with Ed Sheeran, are you thinking, this is wild? Yeah, absolutely. Every time. Every time. No, the first couple of times for sure. The first couple of times, I was like, we're talking and having this out-of-body experience. I'm like, that's fucking Ed Sheeran. I'm like, that is fucking Ed Sheeran. And then the first time, because we wrote songs together, not together to put out, but just in general, sort of like music dating, you do it. How does that work? Explain that to me. So what happens? When you meet like a new friend in music, you're like, let's write a song.

25:22You know, it's probably like how uni kids go, like let's shag. I don't know. But it's sort of how you bond. And yeah, so. Do you say, do you, do you say like, right, I'll, I'll do the melody. And you can do the lyrics. You can strum on my guitar end. You can strum on my fucking guitar. Yes. but yeah but even in those moments when like he's singing in a room in front of you I'm like that's Ed Sheeran and it's like it's really weird but like because I'm sure you're the same but at the start like you get really starstruck by everyone you know like even the producer that you see off camera that was that one time on like BBC radio and you're like oh my god and then you go to this part where you're like you're just really nonchalant and you actually you're just like oh everyone's human but then there's every once in a while you meet someone and you're like this is fucking wild and ed was one of them if you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change you really only need one good reason but with zinn nicotine pouches you'll discover many good reasons zinn is america's number one nicotine pouch brand plus zinn offers a robust rewards program.

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27:56What struggles did you face growing up? Oh, fuck me. What didn't I face? Let's go into it, baby. I mean, you know, like, I think, you know, off the bat, sort of dad not being about was a bit difficult. I think that really was the first instance of feeling different. Sort of going to school and everyone's like, Father's Day. and I'm like, what the fuck is that? You know, and that was like really tough and having to understand that. But, you know, I think for me, that was probably the first instance, like I said, of feeling different and really coming to grips with it and learning how to sort of, I guess, grow up a lot quicker.

28:35So when you have a single parent and, you know, she's got, my mum's got three kids, me, one brother and a sister and she's pulled apart sort of trying to support and help us grow. It's like, oh, you're sort of getting home and you're cooking dinner at like, you know, like nine years old for yourself and you're walking yourself to and from school at that age. And you're sort of trying to figure out life without having that another parental figure in the picture. And that was tough. But, you know, there was also racism growing up, you know, and it wasn't as sort of abrupt and immediate as being called the N-word or stuff like that.

29:09And passing though, that did happen in my first ever visit to Cornwall. That was crazy. I was like 11 and I got called the N-word. I was like shit, this is weird. Are you serious? Yeah, that was nuts. What the hell? Cornwall freaks me the fuck out. I've got friends in Cornwall now. But for a while I was like, I'm not going to Cornwall. Age 11? Yeah, that was weird. How do you react to that? Estrange on the street? No, it was a school trip. We went down. I forgot what the hell we were doing in Cornwall. But it was in like a cafe. and we went in and we were all lining up for like fucking muffins or donuts or whatever the hell it was at the time and I remember this woman just like like I was first in the queue and she'd always go to the person behind me always go to the person behind me and I was standing there and I'm like what is going on then my teacher was like he's been waiting can he be served she was like we don't serve his tight brown deer and I was like what I was like what I was like I get that I'm a little chubby but come on and uh it just took my breath away a bit Yeah, yeah.

30:11And then he was like, what do you mean by that? And he was like, N-words. And I was like, great, sick, awesome. And that was like one of my first experiences of like overt racism. But growing up, man, like... What did your teacher do? We left the shop immediately. But even then, you know, again, didn't know how to handle it because it wasn't as much in the public awareness or what they say or what they do. But yeah, strange. It's more that, I mean, what a insecure, foolish, terrible person to say something so horrific to a child. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. But again, it wasn't something I was spoken as much about then.

30:56And, you know, it's inherently wrong, yes, and I'm not excusing it by any means, but it again goes back to that educative piece about what people know and why people think the way that they think and what we can do to challenge those beliefs and assumptions. And, you know, I won't even go into ontologies and epistemologies and all of that rubbish. You can go into anything. Honestly. It's a whole shebang of theory. And it's long, but it's like what we know. Top line. What we know and how we see the world, you know, those two things and how they're formed and et cetera. And there's a lot that we could do to challenge people's epistemologies and ontologies and what we value as knowledge and et cetera.

31:34But it wasn't around back then, you know, those conversations didn't really start coming into public discourse. And they did in some capacity, but like true public discourse with support until sort of like the last 10 years. And even now there's still so much work to do. But, you know, growing up, it'd be like going to a shop and being followed around by security. Or, you know, every time you've sort of passed the police in London being stopped and searched. Or, you know, just a whole lot of rubbish. So dealing with that on top of sort of like not having a father around was pretty difficult. I chatted to a friend of mine who's black.

32:09And he said to me that growing up, he went to predominantly white school. And he said growing up, wherever he went, he just felt awkward. just felt awkward and I said really and he said wherever I went I felt awkward yeah because there was none of my friends looked like me and I was a young kid and it was just not fun and I thought people were looking at me and I didn't know what to do and his dad also wasn't around and he said it was just it was terrible and now what it for him what it manifested into and I sort of I see on him occasionally, which is where he will make jokes and use humor to sort of get past that and get past sort of comments that people have made or things that have been said to him about his color of skin.

32:54And he now, yeah, just tries to use humor the whole time to sort of defend it. Everyone's got a coping mechanism, you know, and I think hopefully when, And it's a hard one because you're always stuck between, is it my responsibility to teach someone? Or, you know, is it for them to learn themselves that this isn't okay? And I find myself having that conversation all the time. And the education is out there. Books are out there. You could type in race on YouTube and be presented with 50 ,000 one-hour YouTube videos teaching you on race and identity politics. And this isn't specific to race. It happens with disabilities.

33:36You know, it happens in sexual orientation and gender identity. It's like, it gets a point where, and they call it a dual burden of like, not only am I being impacted by this, it's now I now have the responsibility to teach people about why it's wrong. And that's fucking tiring. And it's like when you go to a workplace, right? And it's Black History Month and there's one black colleague. because everyone turns around and goes, we know who's planning Black History Month. And it's like, what the fuck? That's fucking tiring. It's almost backhanded racism in a sort of weird way. And it's tiring, you know.

34:12It's like whenever there's an issue of, I don't know, maybe gender identity or an issue of sexuality and everyone turns to their gay friend and goes, yeah, what do you think? And it's like, I'm just having a good fucking day. I'm just being me. I don't want to talk about this shit all the time. And sometimes humor could just sort of like palm it off to the side. But, you know, for me now, it's like I care when it has a tangible impact and when we see it institutionalized and when we see it have a real block or barrier to people's progress. But if it's just on the street or in passing, I do not have the capacity or care enough.

34:56but if it's stopping people from progressing having opportunities or being able to grow then I'm going to be annoyed it's a great answer looking back at you as that kid when you were in that shop in Cornwall does it make you angry or does it make you sad it makes me sad yeah it doesn't deserve my anger you know yeah it makes me sad however I've been to Cornwall many a time since and it's not happened which has also shown me there's been progress you know And it seems so small and so nuanced. But it's honestly really weird. It took me a while to go back to Cornwall. That shit was really weird. PTSD from it.

35:34Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a sense. But, you know, the world is getting better. Fucking slowly, Jesus. And every day it feels like we're one button away from this shit ending.

35:48Dude, I'm so excited that we're doing this. I'm so freaking excited. Have you done a podcast before? I've done one. One was Zach Sang. I don't know. Do I say competitors on here? Yeah, you can say that. You can say that. Yeah, really cool. But yeah, I'm new to this. But when I got told it's with you, I was so, so happy. Matt, because your schedule at the moment is so wild. It's like all over the place everywhere, isn't it? It's just the craziest thing in the world. Yeah, it's mad. I mean, I landed from New Zealand. I went New Zealand to LA and then LA to here all within three days. So I woke up like three this morning.

36:21I'm still like trying to figure out the world. Wait, so you went to New Zealand first? Yeah. How long does that take to get there? So we did at the end of the Australia tour. So it was 17 hours there. I was there about a week and a half. And I flew to LA to do a TV show, then flew here. So I've been back in the UK about a day. Was the TV show American Idol? Yeah, it was. It was. The final of American Idol. Yeah, it was pretty cool. It was pretty cool. What the hell, man? Yeah, it was well weird, didn't it? What? Dude, it's fucking... Yeah. It's unbelievable. For me, it doesn't feel quite real because things are moving so quickly.

36:59Probably for the last two years, it's just been nonstop. So nothing's really sunk in. And then I'll go home and my mates are like, you're on American Idol? I'm like, oh yeah, I was. Do you think that's the way to do it though? Because in these situations, it's quite hard to stay grounded, right? Not grounded in a strange way, but to be... It's just a lot that's going on. And it's a lot of performing. it's a lot of like this this this and this and actually staying quite blase about it may be a good thing 100 i think if you stop and you start to like process at all you just get filled of anxiety and get overwhelmed really quickly like i remember when i started sort of like like finding success in the music industry i like would look at my schedule and it would just freak me out because i'm like oh my god i know what i'm doing to the day to the hour for the next six months and that would like really like scare me because I'll be like I have no control over my life I don't know what I'm doing I'd like like I can't plan breaks I can't plan holidays and that would become really overwhelming and so now I live like day to day and I just like it comes and it comes that's a great way to do it yeah so you don't look forward to anything you just basically wake up and you go okay fine I'm here today yeah whatever tomorrow brings I'm gonna be doing that as well yeah otherwise it's way too much because right now my schedule goes all the way into 2027 and I don't want to know.

38:21Like, you know, for me, it's kind of scary. So I have to just live it day to day. It goes all the way into 2027. Yeah. Yeah. You're like a really, it's like a really popular restaurant. It's like the booking system. Like that is, so wait, hang on. It's booked down until then? I would say like it's held. All my holds are in, you know. So give me a rough schedule. Like what does that look like? I wish I could. because there would be way too, that was cheeky, there would be way too much information and way too many surprises I stumble into. But it looks hectic, you know, it's everything from touring to music releases to, you know, promotional opportunities to just like life stuff.

39:04Like I now have to think like, okay, my mum's birthday's here. I need to like safeguard it and keep it free and do all these things. But like in the process, like you end up missing friends' birthdays or family funerals or not being, and being able to be there for the important things. And that could sometimes really suck. But it's also like, it's such a balance because it's like you want to do this thing and you've been dreaming of doing this thing since you was like 10 years old and now you're doing it. And it's like, yeah, it's such like a two-sided blade where it's like, this is the thing that I love, but it also means I have to miss out on a lot of life as well.

39:38Yeah, that's always happens. I think with any success, there has to come sacrifice, right? I've worked out that life basically is just a, it's basically one big role of sacrifice. Like once you get one thing, you have to sacrifice another. That could be social life or family life or I don't know, health or whatever it is. And when you're being that successful, it's quite hard to balance everything. Yeah. Who gave you that advice about living day to day? It was a mix between my mom and my therapist. Really? Yeah, yeah. Since young, I've always been like so meticulous of like planning and an organization to the point where like it could be over the top and like when I went to university or something I loved because I love being able to plan and execute and organize and and blah blah blah and then it gets to a point in your life where you I don't know you have your first relationship and I mean I remember like being with my first girlfriend and I was like I can't plan and I can't organize and manage like every single circumstance that goes on and I used to get like really stressed out whereas like learning how to balance and navigate emotions of yourself and other people.

40:44And that was like something that came to me quite late in life. And so all of those things really started to take a toll where like I used to become anxiety filled by the fact I couldn't control every inevitability. And I think part of that comes with childhood trauma, part of that comes with relationships. And so it got to a point where when the music thing kicked off and my mum saw it really early on, she was like, you look stressed and you look overwhelmed. You need to stop thinking you could control everything because, you know, music's another thing like a relationship or like your emotions that you can't control and it's going to take you on a journey and just let that journey be.

41:18And my therapist sort of said the same thing in a similar vein. I'm a bit of a control freak as well. And it's, dude, it's the worst. When, especially in careers where you can't control it, right? That's why most entrepreneurs, you know, like that control because they know what they're doing. They know what they're doing day to day. They understand it. you have your new EP A Minute A Moment come on everything dude I feel like everything you write is just feels like it could be a hit feels like it is it feels like it's a hit what's the story behind the name? A Minute A Moment it all comes from a story it was all about how people come and go into your life for different reasons and for different points right so she'd say like some people are here for a minute and you know they might just be a brief encounter that you learn something from.

42:11Some people might be around for a few months to a few years and really help you develop and change and grow as a person. But no matter in what interval they enter your life, they all have importance. And just to really cherish those moments. And so me writing this is all just being about exploring those different things in my life, whether people have been here for a short while or a longer while, and trying to tell the story of how those relationships have impacted me or how certain situations have impacted me. And so I did a minute, which was the first EP and a moment, which is this EP, which just talks a little bit more about those moments and trying to understand them and portray them musically.

42:50You got given your first guitar at what age? 11. Yeah, 10 or 11, between the two ages. Who taught you to play it? Me. yeah yeah uh my mum had i'd tried football basketball trampolining cadets uh what's the little like army territorial armies all that shit i tried it all and she was sick of it like we didn't have much money so when she was paying for me to do these clubs it was like this was a real stretch on the household and like it would be felt you know like it would go from like cooked meals to we're getting fucking Iceland loving pizza. Like, you know what I mean? And, but she always wanted to find something that I loved and was interested in.

43:36And whether she, I think she did that for two reasons. One, because I think when a divorce happens at young, you feel like this responsibility to give your child the best life. But two, because she genuinely just wanted me to find what I was about. And I was shit at everything. It doesn't feel like it. No, I was, trust me. It doesn't feel like it. Trust me. anything that was an academic and was a hobby oh terrible mate I don't think a lot of people know this is that you started a business yeah after university yeah yeah and then you said okay I'm not going to go and do this I'm now going to go and do music that feels like playing your hand at things you're pretty good at it if it's a book or if it's a guitar I'm great if it requires footwork speed, agility or strength get fired.

44:25So I'm like, I'll do it. What was the business? It was operational and strategic development, basically. Sounds sexy. Delivered as a consultancy package. Yeah, to help with sort of like medium to large enterprises and basically understand their business, help grow and then help make them more efficient, but by way of changing culture and changing policy within them. I'm in. That's unbelievable. My business partner is still going. I can link you up. Yeah, she's amazing. Yeah. Because I find that the amazing moment. It's like you have this, you're entrepreneurial, and then you start... Pivot. You pivot.

45:02And pivoting at that age is a wild... Because that age, they call it like the lost years. You don't really know. So everyone's scrambling around, especially in our current climate, to find any sort of job. So you have security. Here it is. Yeah, yeah. And then you go, no, and you start posting things on social media. I think it was such a privilege being able to... get to a point where like don't get me wrong I wasn't fucking a millionaire but like I was very comfy for my age you know 23 earning from consultancy is like I was doing okay and it was a privilege of going wait okay so I have my own apartment I have a steady and stable income which is above my peers like I'm good so now what I've got to really look at is am I like satisfied and am I fulfilled?

45:49And I think being able to go money and comfort does not bring fulfillment at 23 was the biggest privilege ever. How on earth do you know that? Because I was working that job and I was like, this is shit. Like I was like, I'm making money. I'm living in an apartment. I've got a car that I wanted. But do I feel like I could do this forever? Absolutely not. And I could have like moved it to a place where it became passive income and done all of that stuff. but I couldn't see that for myself as like, that's my purpose, if that makes sense. Yeah. Man, that's such great self-awareness. That is insane.

46:28That was my mum. We actually had that conversation because the first time I had that conversation with myself was before university. And I was like, do I want to go to university or do I want to do music? And my mum was like, I'll support you doing either. But I strongly recommend you go to university just so that you have something to fall back on if it doesn't work. But if you want to do music, lean in, do it full. and then I actually went to my mum and had the conversation with her before I quit everything and I said this is the position I'm in and she was like I've been waiting for you to get to this point.

46:53What year is this? This was 2022 slash 3 somewhere in that bracket yeah. We're in 2025? Yeah. You're going on tour with Ed Sheeran? Yeah. You get 25 million streams maybe more a month than Spotify? Yeah. You got Rising Star at the Brit Awards? Silly innit. is this the intro that I missed? This is it. This is it, baby. Man. Yeah. About two years ago, yeah. That is crazy growth. Like, it's wild. You know, you put a song out, you did a cover for The Neighbourhood, The Neighbourhood, right? And then on social media, Jared Leto shared it. It's crazy. And from there, it's like, seems to be sky rolling.

47:42and you know I when I first heard your song Stargazing right which is you know probably maybe the one that people most know you for at the moment there's just something just different about it I there is like when you when you write a song like that and you feel did you feel it you're like this is this feels good yeah I mean music music for me is probably the one time that I feel truly like creative and free from like but i don't know type a type b but i know people use type a people type b people i don't understand it but i think type a is like super like detail oriented yeah right music's the only time i don't feel type a and so i could just be like purely creative and i remember that song when we wrote it i was in malibu for the first time so i i had like loads of online success and i just signed my record deal uh in the january like before that i think i built myself up to like eight or nine million month listeners like independent and it was really cool but it was like so hard to manage like I couldn't it was just me and my manager at the time and it was impossible so we needed a label who saw our vision and etc but the first thing I did I was like well I've never stayed in a fucking mansion before so booked a huge like five-story mansion in LA hills flew out my brother and my best friends got the label to pay for it I was like this is sick swimming pool jacuzzi like it was nuts and I was like I feel like this shit right now so me Pete and Jesse then booked another Airbnb why not just signed in Malibu and we wrote about 20 or 30 songs that week and then towards the end of the camp we were like going like mad because like have you been to Malibu I'm sure there's no one there it's beautiful but there's no one so it's just us like like sore like we're just like messes like we've just been eating junk food and and drinking and just like yeah like rock star living um and we were like let's just write something just to like finish off this week let's not think about it let's just have fun and like yeah within like 15-20 minutes we wrote stargazing yeah

50:03I just want to say I just like I think the reason why people say that you're so nice and all those things is because you literally are you are so nice your energy is amazing and this has been I've been so excited for this one and weirdly I don't know why but I feel like immensely proud I think that's what your fans probably think of you as well I think they feel very proud of you because yeah, it's just, it's rare when you really want to root for someone and I feel like everyone wants to root for you. Thank you so much, man. We'd like to end with quick, eight quick fire questions. Answer really quick.

50:38Are you ready? Saying a phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up. Oh, get lit. Why did I pick that? Let's go. That's crazy. Just grab the thumb. What scares you most about yourself? My work holism. Work holism. Workahellism. Workahellism. Workahellism. I know. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? You're a beautiful person. I love that one. That one feels really genuine when it's said in like a really nice tone. When was the last time you cried? I mean, emotionally, when my brother came out at Hammersmith Apollo and gave a speech. Physically, when I was puking on myself from food poisoning in Toronto about a few weeks ago.

51:25Sick. love both of those something you can't let go of ooh ooh something I can't let go of pretty much everything my mum's told me in life yeah guilty pleasure oh I got a lot I got way too many do you know what it's like it's one direction and it's not really guilty pleasure but like they're fucking sick man They're fucking great. It's unbelievable. It pisses me off how good they are. Hey, what makes you beautiful is unbelievable. Bruv. Bruv. It's annoying. It's annoying. It's unbelievable. Yeah. What turns you off? Like toes. I hate gammy toes. What turns you on? Good toes. I'm joking. I'm joking.

52:15Good food. Good food. I'm a big foodie. Favorite cuisine? What is it then, quickly? Seafood. Yeah. Anything seafood. Oh my God. What do you like most about yourself? Ooh.

52:28I don't actually know hopefully I'm a nice guy and bonus for me your favourite lyric you've ever written you don't have to be so strong when you're with me let's go let's go

52:48amazing that was so great amazing what a guy everything we wanted and more he's an amazing amazing guy he's so interesting I could honestly listen to him talk for hours super interesting just a great guy in so many different ways and his music's good he's thoughtful better than good Jamie better than good it's great he knows how to run a melody but also just his idea on like social politics and humans and diversity and you know quality it's just amazing yeah it really is Miles if you're listening to this you're incredible and I really appreciate us, you giving us your time. I really appreciate us and you.

53:29And you. Guys, if you want to subscribe to the show, please do. I cannot tell you how much it does for us. It means we can keep continuing to make the show and keep getting the guests that you love. Also, let us know what you think of the show. Write us an email, greatcompany at jamppopproductions.co.uk or you can sign into our DMs at Great Company Podcast. Let us know what guests you want, what you like and don't like about the show. We want to hear it all. Okay? And we're going to see you next week for another episode of Great Company.

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