PALOMA FAITH: WHY MY MARRIAGE BROKE DOWN

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0:48Always family. So pull up a chair and join us at Fremont Avenue, a world premiere play only at Arena Stage. Performances start October 8th. Tickets at arenastage.org.

1:04Hello everyone, my name is Jamie Lang and this is Great Company. Hello. Why are you whispering? Well, I just, actually I don't know why I'm whispering. I need to introduce, I always forget to do that. Yeah, you do need to introduce, who are you? Who are you? My name is Jamie Lang and I am the host of this podcast, Great Company, and you are? The producer. Jemima. and the reason why we do this before our show is because as I always say we didn't want me to just ramble into a microphone about our guests but actually talk to the producer Jemima who is sitting here with me about the show and we did the research and our lights have just gone off in our studio but that's fine, I quite like it like this but talk about because we both researched the show and so we thought discussing it together is a good idea you do what they call a briefing call.

1:59I do. Before the episode. I do. Where you phone up the manager or the talent who is coming on. Yeah. Whether it's a... Quite scary sometimes. Yeah, a pop star, actor or expert in an area. We do have some experts coming on. We do. Do you get nervous doing it? Yeah, I do get quite nervous. I think sometimes people get scared about like phone calls are quite nerve-wracking. And I never know whether to say hello, is that Paloma? Or do I go, hello, this is Jemima. I'm the producer of the show. Is that Paloma? So you phoned up. Did you phone up Paloma Faith? Because that's our today's guest. Yeah. How was it?

2:32Lovely. I'm really excited. She's a good gal. She, I mean, if you, Paloma is a British singer, songwriter and actress. She's released her sixth studio album, The Glorification of Sadness. I love that title. Great title. I think she is another one potentially, which is the creative in these wonderful people. She slides from dark to light maybe. Yeah. I think she does. Yeah. I think she seems a lot of fun but also like a very like there's a lot to her. Do you think she likes posh people? I I don't think she dislikes posh people. I've never met Paloma. Are you nervous? No I'm not nervous I've never met Paloma but I'm a huge fan.

3:18Yeah. I mean her singing is incredible. You Paloma has one of those really distinctful voices that you can just tell it's a Paloma Faith song or that she's sung it or she's been on it or whatever it is. Yeah. And such a, like a unique look. I'm really excited to see what she's going to wear. What are you going to, um, what are you going to ask her first? Um, I don't know. I'm going to ask her. Maybe I ask her, maybe I talk about being posh. Shall I do that? Yeah, you could do. Maybe I kick off with that. Yeah. I mean, that's what they say with stand up, go in and say the most obvious thing. Okay.

3:49I'm going to. Okay. We ready for this? I think you're ready. Okay. Here we go. Please enjoy the Great Company episode with Ploma Faith.

3:59I don't know anything about you Well if you met me for the first time what would you think I was? Well you've already just before I just we started you said that you're on Made in Chelsea so now I know you're a posh boy and so that means that there's going to be a modicum of resentment from the beginning Oh good Yeah just like Wow But because it was a reality TV show you compensated because that's tacky as hell so you've brought yourself down a notch. Yeah. Hi, I'm Paloma Faith and I'm great company. I heard that when you went for a record deal and you met the person, I think this is the story, but you can say it, you met the person who was head of the record label and they were on their phone too much and so you told them to fuck off.

4:48No, I told them I wasn't going to play any music until they stopped texting. Wait, can you tell me the story? So what happened? Well, they came for a showcase. so they'd asked me to do and then he was just on his phone while I was singing and then I just stopped and I was like he looked up and I said he said why have you stopped and I said because I think it's rude that not just me but all these musicians are like playing to you and we're all doing it and you're just looking at your phone I just find it rude and you're the one who asked me to do this so I don't need to be here he went oh okay sorry and I said well we'll start when you've finished your message and then he was like okay and I said sorry but I'm going to start from the beginning and then he was like okay because we'd already done two songs so I started the whole thing again and then he was like uh okay it was a bit on the back foot and then he said you sound like Amy Winehouse what are you going to do about it this was back then and I said well think about these and I named like six indie white boy bands that all sounded the same to me and I said well there's six of them and they all look and sound the same to me so what are you gonna do about that and he was like uh do you want this and I said not really I'm quite happy in my life I was really content where I was at because I enjoyed the climbing I didn't just I didn't want to ever feel indebted like it's me that I I want me I want to achieve it myself I don't want to feel indebted or dependent on somebody else helping me so anyway so he left and he was like wow this girl's full on and then nine months later he emailed me and said I'm I'm you know just emailing you to say um that I have I've seen so many bands so many musicians in the last nine months and none of them have been as interesting as you and you're just your whole being like you're a star and i want to sign you and i just wrote back sorry who is this but then that was the person who ended up signing me my manager called was like he's called me and he said you're giving him a hard time that's amazing i had a rumor that you've you never had any training in singing you just no But I have since.

7:14It was obviously this music was in you. Growing up, did you just feel like you just had music within you? Were you always writing diaries? Were you writing things down? I do have diaries from really young, but also my dad was a jazz fanatic and his house was full of vinyl. So every week it was all alphabeticalised, but when I went to his house, he'd be like, pick a letter and then we'd do that letter. But most of it wasn't vocals. it was mostly instrumental jazz but I I had all of that and sort of in the background of my upbringing and he was so fanatical about it and obsessed and then my mum was more into like you know 60s vocalists and stuff so that's where it all came from I think that the the listening to like so much instrumental music all the time put it in me did you have the confidence to go and start singing when you're younger no i i was asked to because somebody overheard me singing while sweeping glass in a bar that i worked in i was singing along with eric badu album that was on and then what happened from there then he just said would you like to write something together and I was like, yeah, well, I write poetry because I was always really into writing poetry.

8:35And so then we did some appalling songwriting together, really bad, embarrassing. Do you still have some of the stuff? Yeah. That's so great. And then I sort of left it for a bit and then I was in a bar. I worked in another bar later down the line and I was quite into dressing in vintage clothes and these guys were like you want to be in our band we're doing like a rock and roll band and then I just said okay you don't even know if I can sing they said we don't even care so I did that for a bit that was all covers I don't really know how it happened it's sort of an accident but I think a lot of and I there's a documentary that was made about like me touring as a mum but um in that I say I think a lot of it might have been towards like getting some acknowledgement or validation from my dad because like I went on to do it all the stuff he was in awe of it's what it was his dream and then you started living and he yeah it was so critical of me anyway and then like you know I was playing I remember like doing these big jazz orchestra things and singing all these standard songs at the Barbican and then the Royal Albert Hall and on the proms and, and all of it's just like, screw you.

9:58Success is the best revenge. It is, isn't it?

10:05There's a funny thing about success, right? Which is where people, I think highly successful people like yourself sometimes. I don't feel highly successful. Yeah, but that's what I was going to say. But why don't you? You're so successful. Yeah, but people, there's so many people who've done better than me. But that's comparing yourself and that's wrong. Yeah, but I look at them and go, well, I've got to do better. Yeah, but that's comparing and that's not a, compare it if you start. I've always compared, like that's how I, I mean, when I was at school, I would sit next to the cleverest person in every class.

10:41I'd just sit next to them and like be like, I'm sitting next to you and I'm going to get, I'm going to be better than you. And that's how I did it. And I ended up, it worked. I'd sit next to them. I'd sort of learn their ways. I'd learn how to do them. And then I'd do better than that.

11:02But that's just highly competitive as well. That means you're very competitive. But also that does mean, unfortunately, just to put it out there, is that you're never probably going to be satisfied no I know I'm not I've made peace with that you've made peace with that I'm never going to be satisfied how do you make peace with that because that's a struggle that loads of that and especially because of social media now we're constantly comparing ourselves to everyone because you just keep going and going and climbing and climbing until you die all my my ambition is live life to the fullest like keep going always put the most amount of energy into everything and do your personal best at all things you might not ever feel satisfied And if you were, that would be a bit like, what's the point of carrying on living then?

11:49What, just peace and serenity? It's not really appealing to me. I want to just keep going and like have those highs and lows and highs and lows. Like I think I like it. Is it because you're scared that it's going to go? Probably. But you know it won't? I don't know that, no. I think that's... Every time I get towards putting an album out, I think this is the end. Because you think people won't like it? Yeah, I think people won't buy it, they won't like it. I'm always asking my label if I'm going to get dropped. But now everyone's independent, so it's quite cool if you get dropped, so I'm okay with that now.

12:33Where does that confidence come from, though? It's to do with the fact that my idea of success is different to what other people's are. So what's your idea of success? It's to do with achieving something for myself, first of all. And it's to do with bettering myself or achieving things that I didn't think were imaginable for myself.

12:58And I think I've always been hyper aware that happiness is fleeting. but something that gives me more maybe more fleeting moments of happiness than other things do you think happiness is fleeting though yeah because but does it need to be fleeting it's always going to be fleeting that's the human condition you go up and down and up and down and as like coming from a perspective now you're in of like somebody who's just got married I would say like you hold on to it but when you you know speak to people whose marriages have lasted they all say the same thing you have to fall in love over and over again like you do you will fall out of love with each other but it's about finding your way back to each other again that makes it work and you will be unhappy it's inevitable but you'll get back to it and as long as you like do that together and don't separate to do it I think it will work you're right that's great advice I think you're you're right I think sometimes there's this sort of idealistic idea of life that it was always going to be happy and roses and all these different things and then someone told me once I actually chatted to them on the podcast and they said to me oh my favorite quote is this too shall pass and I was like oh my god that's amazing he said well it is it applies to both yeah positive and negative and he said because the saying is it a guy went to a jeweler and said can i can you make a jewel that will make a well man a sick man well a well man sick a happy man sad and a sad man happy so the guy went away and made this jewel and it was written this too shall pass yeah and it's true and i never thought about it the other way i just thought same with like success like you might be rewarded or something superficially but tomorrow is another a day.

14:49You can't look at it. You have to look at both success and failure with the same contempt almost. Blake weirdly always talks about in his two poems, he talks about the innocence and experience and how experience destroys innocence, which is so true. And weirdly enough, that's why Peter Pan is one of my heroes. It's because he liked that innocence of being like, he didn't want to live in this world of hook and things like that. It'd be awful to be married to though, wouldn't it? Yeah, terrible. Imagine being married to me, just wanting to be a little boy forever. No, I just got out of that thing

15:22But do you think when you were innocent when you were naive to all of this world and you didn't have the success you have now do you think that was a happier time for you because you didn't have the expectations you have now your sixth album, you really wanted to do well and so before it was just like oh, I don't have anything to compare it to so it doesn't really matter what happens Yeah, I'm more afraid of not doing well than I was then Then I was just like, this is a funny story. The day I got a record deal and then flopped, fell on my face. That would have been funny. If you've had lots of successes and then suddenly you flopped, that's terrifying.

16:02People always talk about the difficult second album. It's like, I'm on album six, how difficult is that?

16:13You and I have more things in common than you realise. What? I went to Leeds University and you went to the dance college. Yeah. How was that for you? It was the worst thing that's ever happened to me. Why? It was terrible. Well, they were really preoccupied with like the physical technique and everything. It was really strict. All the cliches like checking what I was eating, kicking my leg into the splits, all that abuse. and they used to send my academic work away to be invigilated at Leeds University because they couldn't understand it. So I used to have this slightly difficult relationship because they'd be like, you didn't write this.

16:58It sounds like something that would be published. They used to say that to you. Yeah, and I'd be like, well, I did write it because I was always really academic, admit but they were like why do you go to this college if you can write like that basically implying that dancers are all people who didn't have an option because they were too stupid to do anything else which isn't true but yeah they I mean I guess I've faced a lot of reverse prejudice in my life so it's terrible of me to start this podcast by saying oh you're posh and I've judged you because basically I like it I like you did that you like it because posh people like a little bit of slap in the face from commoners don't they it's like fetish it's fetishy bend over but like but no I think I've had the opposites I've been in like academic situations and been sort of ill judge because my accent but I'm quite sort of yeah I've always been you know quite academic but maybe it's because how do you respond to rules because I feel like I hate them do you I hate them but I think that's something to do with ADHD because we both got ADHD what is about rules that you dislike I dislike feeling that somebody that I don't have my own agency that somebody might control anything about me like I I don't mind it when somebody presents a rule to me as if it was my decision.

18:27Like, I don't mind that. So I'm like, yeah, I wanted to. But if someone's like, I told you to do that, then you did it. I just get so infuriated. How do you feel? Yeah, I think I'm so similar to that. So I went to a boarding school from eight years old. No, darling. No, but... It was awful. Do you know what it was? Don't drop the soap. No, it was. Do you know what we used to do? Should I tell you this? We used to all have showers and communal showers. Don't, this is censored In an all boys school And what we used to do is we used to rub soap on ourselves And each other And get a good lather And then press against each other There are so many people masturbating over this podcast right now You don't even understand Just imagining you lathering with the boys We used to put soap on ourselves and then press ourselves together and then move away and create a really big bubble.

19:25But that was the innocent perspective. Completely innocent. Eight years old. Nine years old doing that with just my friends, making bubbles in the shower. But going to a boarding school from eight years old, it was so many rules and I felt so trapped. And because of those rules in place, that's why I wanted to go against it. So there must have been something in your life, maybe that rules were put upon you and you're like, I just don't want this. Because how did you learn about rules? Was your mum quite strict? My mum brought me up saying rules are made to be broken. So my mum's quite naughty.

20:00And I went to like a proper inner London state school and all the teachers were socialists and they were all like, screw the system, screw the government. And that was the environment I grew up in, like question everything, question authority. and the only time that they could ever enforce any discipline in our school because that was kind of like the whole thing of it was the police would come no teachers had to do it police would just be there every single day do you think that your attitude towards kind of rules and things that have that's kind of your success in music because you've kind of done what you've wanted to do yeah I think so but also it's not conscious because I've never really experienced rules like I always say I think I'd cope really badly for example if I for whatever reason ends up in jail because I've never I have never experienced somebody telling me what to do before really no authority whatsoever no but like reasoning like so my mum would I was very disciplined I was very good as a kid honestly this is a disclaimer and people are always shocked I've never done any drugs I've never been that drunk I've never like I'm not really a rebel in that sense because I didn't have anything to rebel against I'm just I didn't have to do it because it was all about like just reasoning like the way I was disciplined the reason why I behaved was never because it was what I'd been told to do.

21:39It was like, no, but if you do that, you might hurt yourself. Oh, that makes sense to me. You know, like proper open dialogue. And I've got two kids now and I do that with my kids. Like I don't, I say, well, you can do it if you want. But my concern is you might graze your knee or, you know, or you might feel so full up you don't eat anything nice and then you might get ill. But there are some times, I suppose, when in any sort of business or especially with your career, which is you've just done so much. And I can imagine that people are always trying to, you know, have you, take you, do different things with you.

22:17At some point you do have to put down rules, right? You have to, all things aren't done and that must frustrate you then. But what I do is tend to try and get a sort of grasp on whether this is something that I can influence as in a change. Like, would they learn the way I would want it to be done? Or is it someone that just will never do it and then I have to do the horrible firing thing, which I hate doing? I've fired people crying before. I'm so sorry. So wait. So, hang on a second. So, okay. But that's the same as relationships. Yeah, true. It is the same. Sometimes it's like you're not compatible and it's sad when it breaks up and doesn't work.

23:02But you can see that it's just never going to be right or make you both happy. You have to say goodbye to it. It's the same with work. It's like devastating because you're so disappointed. Naturally, there are qualities about that person you really like, you know. How do you fire someone? So if you were going to fire me right now. I tend to now get to the point now where I have learned over time that I shouldn't get too close first so somebody else can do it. But in the early days I got so close to everyone because I've got this weird thing where I want to know everyone's life story and like and then I get them to tell me their problems and stuff and then I sort of take them on.

23:41I really feel compelled to help. That's the way I am naturally. But you have that energy that's why. And so management are always I'm like what's your trauma? Let's trauma bond to everyone. And management are now like, right, just don't let them speak to Ploma for more than 10 minutes. Because it ends up with her crying and feeling bad or like overpaying to say sorry for like the job not working out or whatever. Like, let me just give you some money to say sorry. But you definitely have that. But we haven't met before, but you have that really warm. And I'm not saying this because you're sitting on it.

24:18I wouldn't say it otherwise, but you do have this warm aura, right? So when I met you outside and you were sitting on the sofa, you immediately get up and hug. Before we even met, you said you're a posh boy. And that's very endearing. But it's nice, right? There's no like... Some people might hate it. It's Marmite, isn't it? But some people... But I have to say, like disclaimer, that if I give people a hard time, it's usually like very light, but it's nowhere near as much of a hard time I give myself internally. Really? So when I say like, oh, you're a posh boy, I don't think you'll get offended because like my inner voice is just appalling.

24:55It's such a bully. So I think he can handle that. Nothing compared to what I'm saying to myself, which I think is what's driven me creatively to achieve because nothing's ever enough. They always say that you're either, I think it's pulling yourself, or you're being dragged towards something. So something typically, the reason why a lot of people are successful, especially in this entertainment industry, is because something is dragging them towards that. Something in their past has either injured them or hurt them or they don't feel worthy enough or good enough or looking for validation. And I definitely know for me doing a reality show, the reason I did a reality show is because I wanted to be famous.

25:40I thought being famous was going to be the funnest thing in the world. And you found out not so much. Not so much. Pretty quickly. And then I was doing a reality show. And reality shows, you know, are, you know, it's a reality show about being posh. But then my problem was, is that it was people to fetishize something that the 1 % get to experience. completely so then you're on a television show about being posh and you've done it because you want to become famous or whatever it is and then you have to try and make that into a career because you can't go and get a normal job after that so that was an issue but why do you think then you could get a normal job though you could yes my mum's always telling me i need to train to be a teacher she's like you've had kids you've done the pop stuff and go and do a pgce because then you can have the same holidays as your kids.

26:31I'm like, okay, considering it, just might put one more record out.

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27:21Saints and sinners. Unexpected laughs and unspoken truths. Good times. Hard times. And, of course, family. Always family. So pull up a chair and join us at Fremont Avenue. A world premiere play only at Arena Stage. Performances start October 8th. Tickets at arenastage.org. Your sausage mc muffin with egg didn't change. Your receipt did. The sausage mc muffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just$5. $50. Only at McDonald's for a limited time. Prices and participation may vary.

28:01Do you think you're lovable? Very. But that's great. That's a really positive thing because sometimes... But I also think I'm really despisable, but I'm just like... No, you're not despisable. In my life, I've had a lot of... You're opinionated, that's a good thing. I've had an experience of people being really like, I love her. And I've had the opposite. And I quite like that because it would be awful if you went into a room and people were like, I don't really remember her. I'd rather they were just like, she's awful. Do you think for you, like, so with your new album, could you obviously put your heart and soul into your music?

28:40Do you think for you that is your one place that kind of never always is supporting you, always is there to help you? always is never backing out. That is your place of comfort. So when you want to have a sounding board, when you want to release all of these emotions, you can put it into an album and write it. Yeah, it's therapeutic. It's cathartic. Absolutely. But I also do a lot of actual therapy as well. And I find that important. Like I notice when I don't go for a while that I need it. But I don't think anger is a negative emotion either because I was raised to believe anger was a negative emotion.

29:20And my mum, when I was growing up, was always like, if I hit something or threw something, she'd be like, I can't believe you. You're just like your father because that was like the biggest insult. And because my dad's a very angry man. Why was that the biggest insult? Because he's a very angry man and it didn't get him anywhere. But I've also got something like I get stress-related alopecia and I think all of that's like, and it's always emotional. If I'm stressed at work, my hair doesn't fall out. But if it's emotional, my hair starts falling out. And it's something to do with like the body kind of like eating itself if you don't release those feelings.

29:59So it's really important that you do. With writing this recent album, when you finish it and you put it out there, is there a sense of calm? Is there a sense of completion? Do you have that when you write your music? And when you, especially when you complete it, or is there a sense of sadness when you complete it because then you can't go back into that place? Because actually there's comfort being in trauma sometimes. Well, just because you finished the album doesn't mean the trauma's gone away. No, it doesn't for sure. But I think in the past up till, like, so my first five albums were all albums that I felt like I'd put something to bed with.

30:38but I think this is ongoing navigation because we have children together and that's what makes this a different type of heartbreak album because the heartbreak will be forever and the navigation of our relationship changing shape will be forever probably till we die. You can't really let go of somebody you've got kids with and some people sort of, you know, just because you don't see them, Some people never speak again and they're still very present because you look at your kids and you see that person in your kids. Or they come back from visiting your ex-partner and they're doing the mannerisms or they've got opinions that you don't agree with that are their opinions or whatever.

31:25But in my case, it's even harder, I think, in a way, because we really like each other a lot and we're really close and we still love each other. and that makes it confusing. That's really sad. So it's sort of heartbreaking every time we see each other. That makes me sad. Yeah, it is sad. Because if you were telling me and I was a friend of yours, I'd be like, but hang on a second. I can see you're getting emotional now because it makes me upset because you have so much love to give, obviously. You want to be looked after. No, it's so, because you're obviously... It's just very raw because of the kids.

32:07Of course it is. And you're obviously such a great mum and you want to make sure your kids are okay. And so you've got that pressure. And then you also still love your partner. And sometimes you're just like in life, well, why the fuck hasn't this worked out? Like that, fuck's sake, I love you and you love me. But I say on the album, there's a spoken bit where I say, I know it's my fault. And then it does this mantra. It's all right. Thanks. It does this mantra that says there's nothing more human than failure over and over again. And it's true. Yeah, it is true. And you know, we have to fail, right?

32:46And that's what happens. I sort of realized that in this like weird game called life, which, by the way, I thought all the time that I'd open a door and I'd find all the answers and you just never do. And that's what's kind of scary about life. But we constantly have to make mistakes. and falling in love and getting married and then that maybe not working out isn't bad on you. That's just part of life sometimes. And it's not even a failure. It's just a part of what happens. And I think maybe you're giving yourself too much of a hard time. It feels like. I think you are. Yeah, but saying that to me is like telling me not to be me.

33:25I know it is. I know it is. Do you find it hard to listen to the album? There's one song on it that I can't listen to And I don't think I'll play live Called Divorce And I just get too upset

33:45Because it's just too much I don't think I could sing it Really? Mm So then why do you put it on the album? Because it's the most truthful one

33:59it's basically all the stuff that's just made me get emotional now in a song and it's got my kids voices in it really yeah so as soon as i hear them at the beginning it's like i've recorded them playing in the garden i just start crying i just hear them and then i'm like one chord really yeah but that's kind of special at the same time yeah maybe i'll get maybe i need to like toughen up a bit on tour and just you've got to perform that like are you kidding me that's going to be amazing how do you deal with heartbreak i don't know not very well i think you have to go through it though and you've got to sort of face your feelings i think in the past this is what i've learned from this one in the past i always dealt with it by probably pushing it to one side and filling that void with another person almost immediately really so you would replace I just replace not straight away but very quickly and now I've got children it doesn't work it doesn't sit right I've tried a bit of dating I've tried some stuff and it doesn't work because when you've got children the moment you know that someone's not right for you you just can't see them like that they're not going to make you happy or you know if they're going to be damaging to you because if I'm miserable my kids experience it and I notice myself as well being like if I'm upset or stressed about something with someone and then I'll be like maybe more quicker to snap with my kids like what are you why do you keep asking me or they go mama mama mama you're like what whereas normally you'll just be like yes love whatever like I don't know so I have to be careful so I don't think my old habits work anymore so I'm sort of like learning it sounds so cliche but as trying to have a relationship myself I don't know if I've ever had one they always say that heartbreak is like grief and they go you go through seven stages and the seven stages are shock, denial, pain, guilt, anger, bargaining, depression, and then an upwards turn and it sort of gets towards acceptance.

36:22If you had to say, which... That's what my album's about, by the way, all the stages of grief. It's chronological, but it goes through all those stages. So each song represents those stages. Can I, can I ask a personal question? Why do you think it didn't, your, it didn't work out? you're 10 years together you have you know two beautiful kids yeah and relationships I get a heart doesn't matter how new or how old they are um why don't you think it worked resentment because I think that I did too much I felt I contributed more to the whole setup than than I was I didn't feel like I was matched in my contribution and over time that took its toll and the resentment built there was a lot of like I won't go into the details but there's a lot of disparity I think between I felt there was between what I put into it and him in terms of love in terms of everything everything not love I think we were equal on that practically I think more and that's sometimes hard but then did you communicate that because sometimes I think in relationships maybe that's not communicated so you're I've definitely felt in relationships before where I felt a certain way, but I've never communicated that.

37:38Yeah, I did communicate it, but I do think as well, like it was in the end, it becomes about accepting that like, you can't turn someone into something else. Like, for example, I'm just quite an ambitious, proactive person. But if somebody is not ambitious and proactive, I can't make them into that. have to accept who they are that's what love is so you sort of have to be okay with who they are and what they're bringing do you think in relationships sometimes that we change and then the other person doesn't potentially change with you yeah and then that becomes a problem right because i think having children was a huge shift for me because i i have always been quite maternal and like enjoyed that role but then as soon as I had small babies I didn't and this is quite common in relationships I didn't have the capacity even to like mother anybody other than the baby or the next baby didn't want to mother the partner or the friends I had friends who got upset with me as well because you just put so much love and everything in to the baby well they're just like you don't give me attention like you used to just like well hold fire for a second like wait till my children are over the age of 10 then you can go back I'll give it I'll have a decade of that I don't want to like take that away from them but I think that takes its toll and I think that's a big shift you know like lots of people say superficial things about having kids and like well she never wanted to have sex with me anymore or like well she just like wasn't as kind to me or she was always ratty or whatever but I don't think there's enough acknowledgement for like the sheer amount of pressure or work that women do when they become mothers and I do believe and I talk about this a lot that feminism has kind of let started something for us and abandoned us halfway through because we've been given this sort of like pseudo what I think is a patriarchal idea of equality which basically means that we're all doing three people's jobs and we're tired and irritable and it's understandable we're just done and like could explain that more what do you what do you mean by three people's jobs well i'm doing a full-time work breadwinner in my in your situation yeah and i am you know making great stuff happen and like kind of feel like responsible for exciting things to happen for my family.

40:17Yeah. Holidays, like events, like painting, whatever they do, like Play-Doh, play dates, buying the school uniform, doing the supermarket shop. Like it's so much this sort of like invisible unspoken labor that you do as a mother. and um so there's that and then there's like on top of that like being there for your children being like a source of like moral growth and like emotional support and all of that it's so much and and I think that it's taken for granted by society like the mother the mother and everyone's always like oh they're mum or will mum be coming like you don't even realize and tell it happens to you that everyone's just like the mum and nobody goes dad or they and if he's involved they go oh you're so lucky and women even say it about their bloody partners like I'm really lucky because my partner's a stay-at-home dad there is so much difference between a stay-at-home dad and a stay-at-home mum like there is so much difference between a working mum and a working dad it's just it's not fair but bring that down quickly just so So a working mum goes to work, comes home, and the kids are immediately her full responsibility.

41:41Whether she likes it or not, they're obsessed with their mum. I love it, but it's true. Like, a working man might come home, sit down on the sofa. The kids aren't bothered. They're already doing something else. And they're like, Dad's gone to work. Dad, hello, Daddy. You know, not like immediately, can you do this for me? Can you do this for me? Can you do this for me? As soon as he walks in the door, like, they are like that with a working mum. And then the same with the stay-at-home mums. It's incessant. You get that all day. It's like, can I have my favourite food? Can I do this? And, oh, the kid's up all night with a temperature.

42:15They want their mum. And there are obviously exceptions. Of course there are because there always is for every single rule. But in general, it isn't fair. But do you think that's in... We're burning out. That was my last conclusion.

42:35What emotion do you find most comfortable being in? Oh, most comfortable? Yeah. And hysteria, probably. Really? Yeah. I mean, I just like laugh at everything. That's like my coping strategy. If I'm alone too much, it's dangerous. Why? Because I go to like places in my mind that are a bit self-destructive and sad. and I think I don't know I think there's a lot of stuff you know now like in this kind of like social media age where people are very really encouraged to kind of indulge in sort of psychological cliches and platitudes in these kind of minuti forms like just a self-help quote or whatever and I think it's dangerous because culturally now we're encouraged to almost resolve ourselves from responsibility.

43:33Now I've got like an issue with hyper-responsibility. So I'm really responsible for everyone. I naturally do it. I want to help people. I want to like, you know, it's all a consequence. Like me asking people about their backstory. It's all like I'm always compelled to help people understand them, connect with them, make them feel better. and I think that I'm hyper responsible so I always think what did I if things go wrong what did I do to make that go wrong what was my part in it you blame yourself you blame yourself well I think it's always partially us I think it's every single situation we're ever in even if it's the worst thing will be partially us and we're the only but not always because that how you handled it so so So I've done this amazing type therapy called CAT therapy, cognitive analytic therapy.

44:26And it speaks about the rule of thirds. So a third of it is you, a third of it is the other person, and a third of it is stuff you absolutely have no control over, like the weather or a circumstance that you get plunged into or whatever. So that's sort of like how responsibility should be divided up in a healthy way. But hang on a second This is not everything you're involved with Can relate to you Or you have a part in it for sure But that's the part If you're about to say something like What if you're brought up in a home as a child Divorce right Or not something traumatic as that That's the third of You can't control But how you respond to it You can control How much you let it affect you and your future life and your future relationships is something you can control or take responsibility for.

45:24Like I'm a child of divorce and I do loads of therapy. I mean, that's not my only trauma. I've got a million. In fact, look at the list of all the horrible things that can happen and I've had a connection to all of them. But I think when I talk about my concern about this sort of culture of like, sort of psychology and all of that is like it's it sort of encourages toxic self-pity I don't think that's good sounds quite sort of like somebody to send you to boarding school would say that doesn't it but I think all these messages that my algorithm at the moment I've been blocking them all because I don't think it's good for me my algorithm's constantly telling me like nothing's my fault and it's all them toxic man and I'm just like oh my god I chose to go out of that person what would you say is the happiest period of your life i don't think happiness is necessarily like a feeling of elation i think it's about growth so sometimes awful things can happen where you grow so much that that's happy because it leads you on something better but I think probably it's strange but like having my kids has been the most brilliant thing that's ever happened to me but it didn't manifest in the way I thought it was I thought I'd hold my babies in my arms and be like I am so happy but I wasn't I was really depressed for a long time I had postpartum depression for like two years after both, I'd say.

47:04And it was so sad and so lonely, both times actually. But then like this winter, I just went on a little holiday for the first time ever on my own with my two children. and like no friends, no help with the kids, like nothing, no partner. And I just went by myself and I came back and everyone was like, how was it? And I was like, it was the happiest and most rested I've been since the birth of my first child. I felt really like I'd experienced the rewards of all of that. Like so happy to be okay with just being, accepting myself and where I was at, like in the moment, present, not looking for something more, not looking back on what has happened and couldn't let go or whatever it is we all do to kill ourselves.

48:00Basically, I was just really happy that I've got these two amazing children. That's something. My mum always says to me that when my parents got divorced, it was me, my brother and my little sister, and it was snowing outside and she got us all into a bedroom. We all just slept in the same bed together. She said it was the happiest moment ever she had because it was just like, oh, I've got this team. A little pack. A little pack. And that's amazing. Yeah, I feel lucky. When you go through something like depression like that, it's quite hard sometimes to see the end point. Well, I didn't know I was in it.

48:35I think when you've got real mental illness, you're not really that aware of it. But you feel emotion. You're feeling an emotion, right? Yeah, but I just associated it because of having the babies with like not being a good parent. Always blaming yourself. Yeah. And it wasn't that in hindsight. No, of course it's not. It's hormones and everything just going crazy. But what's so great about you, Pam, is that you're so happy to talk about these things. I know so many people aren't. So many people are so nervous to say that or worried to say that, but you're not. and you're in a position of such, you know, you're so in the public eye that actually surely as an individual you should be more scared to talk about stuff, but you're just like, no, I don't mind talking about it.

49:16You're not scared. It's funny, you're almost scared of what people think, but actually you're totally not scared of what people think either. It's like you... Well, I'd rather that they thought bad things about me based on the truth rather than like they've imagined who I am. Like if I was false and they hated me, that would feel awful. But if I'm exactly who I am and people hate me, then it's better. Because they hate the real version of me. We end the podcast by asking eight questions. It's quick fire. You can be as honest as you want. Okay. But before we go into that, when are you going to go touring?

49:56When is it going to happen? When can people come and listen to you and see you and enjoy everything that you put into it? So February 16th, the drop for the glorification of sadness. And then I'm on tour of the UK all of April. And I've got some summer festivals and I'm doing some European dates as well. Do you love it when you're on tour? I love being on stage. It's the only time I'm not anxious. Really? Yeah. In life, I'm always anxious, but on stage, I'm never anxious. I just think this is it. All that exists is this moment.

50:34Are you ready for your eight questions? Yeah, sock it to me. Okay, here we go. What's a saying or phrase that always makes you smile or cheers you up? Okay, it's one from my new song. I'm not a good girl, I'm a bad woman. It's one of my lyrics. That's quite boss. I like that a lot. Is that your favourite lyric? It is now that my two-year-old goes up to every single person she sees and says, I'm a bad woman. Just makes me laugh.

51:08Best compliment anyone's ever given you? I can't think of the actual compliment, but I think when somebody went on Facebook once and wrote a story about how they'd met me before I was famous and how kind I was to them. So I think being praised for being kind is probably the best compliment. Kindness is the greatest thing, 100%. What scares you most about yourself? My decision-making abilities. Why? I just always second guess.

51:43Honestly, I'm not... Loads of similarities we have. Loads. You're like, I'm you, you're me. I'm you. Twin flies. Yes. Yes. Dangerous though. I'm starting a religious cult. I'm in. Join in. You just have to sign this PayPal agreement. I'll sign it. When was the last time you cried and why? Just now because you asked me some questions that were a bit close to the surface and I'm two days before starting my period as well, so not good. What's something you can't let go of? Some sort of like, I think it's something to do with maybe rectifying my relationship with my father, but it might not be with him, but I think I try and rectify it with other relationships.

52:37And it's always like obsessive. It's a great answer. What's something you'd be embarrassed for people to know you like or want? I find it hard to be embarrassed. Have you ever been embarrassed? Probably, but I don't think it's like something I hold on to or it's probably an unusual thing. Like, ooh, it's so embarrassing. I think it's usually to do with like things where I've slipped up on my political correctness or something I'd be embarrassed about. Only that kind of thing. What turns you off? Sexually, when people go, you like that, don't you? It's like, fuck off. I'll let you know.

53:23So overconfident.

53:28Mine's no talking lights off Completely dark Let's not discuss it Let's go

53:39What turns you on? People who understand that four plays more about what you talk about for the whole day And how you treat each other for the whole day It's not just spit on your fingers and rub

54:00that is unbelievable what do you like most about yourself I think I have the ability to make people feel good like they're at a nice time you definitely have that you really do I've never really said it about myself but my mum keeps texting me remember you've got this ability to make people like because I've been having some personal issues and she keeps saying like remember that's your skill that's your magic power so I'm just trying to say it out loud. Do you believe that in yourself though now? Well sometimes yeah not every single person but I think yeah I'm really good at first impressions terrible in the long term.

54:41Okay and the bonus one what is your favorite swear word? Cunt.

54:48I saw the greatest time I think you've ever used that is when you... Rishi Sunak. What happened? It's my most popular tweet I've ever done. Can you explain what happened? It was when he started doing all his big spiel about refugees that day. And I just put like how, you know, he's just awful. He's so right wing awful. And then I just put Rishi Sunak as a cunt on Twitter. and it was the most sort of like unintelligent, uninformed thing I could have said about it, but it was the most popular tweet because what he was saying was so awful that it didn't warrant any kind of intelligence at all. It was what that word was invented for.

55:33Okay, before you go, I've got one more question. So you sat down and you had preconceptions about me. Yeah. Have they changed? No, you're still posh, but you're nice. I didn't think you were an arsehole. I just thought you were posh. You are posh. Yeah, I'm posh. You're the first to admit you went on Rage in Chelsea. You did that application form knowing full well it was for posh people. The application form.

56:01So that means you like me? Yeah, but I didn't never not like you. Good, I'm glad. Okay. All right. You've been validated. I like you. Thank you very much. I hope it's mutual. It is. Thank you so much. That was amazing. Thank you so much. Thanks. That was amazing. What an icon. That was amazing. That was moving as well. We had some tears. I love the last questions we ask our guests, right? But her one. What was it? Don't just spit? I mean, that is. It was her turn on, I agree. I wholeheartedly agree. My God. No, she's saying that. That was such a great episode. Light and shade, Jamie. Light and shade.

56:46We liked that. Light and shade. Funny, moving. Like I say, we had some tears. It was really, it was really lovely. I get quite emotional sometimes in these episodes. Yeah. I think it's because I'm not normally that vulnerable and I can be vulnerable here. Yeah. Safe space. Safe space. I feel like I say this at the end of all the episodes, but afterwards I'm just like, I love, I feel like I like the person and then they come in. I'm like, I love that person. I love that person. Paloma thank you so much for coming on remember guys if you want to let us know what you think of the episode or you want to chat about anything please send us any messages to our socials at great company podcast and also if you haven't followed our podcast it means a huge amount to us it really really does so if you could follow us by clicking the button and share us that would be amazing but this week thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoyed the episode because with Paloma Faith and Paloma thanks so much for coming on And we'll see you next week on Great Company.

58:10stocks and ETFs. Hmm, that's music to my ears. I can only talk. Investing involves risk, including risk of loss. Zero account fees apply to retail brokerage accounts only. Sell order assessment fee not included. A limited number of ETFs are subject to a transaction-based service fee of$100. See full list at fidelity.com slash commissions. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC member NYSE SIPC. Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change. Your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just five dollars only at McDonald's for a limited time prices and participation may vary shameless is the pop culture podcast for smart people who love dumb stuff I'm Mish and every Monday and Thursday I'm joined by my co-host Sarah hello I am Sarah every Monday we go deep on a big culture story like why you love the summer I turned pretty so much or why you keep seeing so many celebrities announcing they have Lyme disease.

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