PART 1 - £200 MILLION to MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON - THE INSANE STORY OF RIORDAN MAYNARD

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2:14Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang, and this is Great Company.

2:24Hey guys, welcome back to Great Company. Welcome back. Welcome back. That's producer Jemima right there. I'm Jamie, the host. Hey, today's episode is a little bit of a different one. Yeah, thanks for clicking on because chances are you have no idea who this person is that Jamie's talking to. And trust us on this one, it's going to be a really interesting story about a man who went to prison. Yeah. Okay, so a few months ago, Jamie has a call and he comes out and he's like, we need to get this guy on. And I'm like, okay, fine, send me his details. I Google the name, Reardon Maynard. I've been pronouncing it Reardon for months.

3:00And I'm like, who the hell is this guy? Like, I can't find anything online about him. And Jamie's like, no, no, no, trust me, trust me. Anyway, Reardon comes in. His name is pronounced Reardon, not Reardon. And oh my God, it's just like so charismatic and so interesting. So interesting. It was one of these amazing calls where a friend of mine asked me to have a call with this person called Reardon. and he said he just wants to chat to you about this space, this podcasting space, this social media space. And I said, yeah, cool, of course I can do that. Can you give me a little background on him?

3:33He said, well, yeah, I can give you a little background of him. He was a business owner and for the past six and a bit years he's been in prison in the United States. So I went, okay, what for? He said, well, he went in prison because he made some big mistakes in his business and moved money around and the IRS investigated and then he was sent to court and they said he was guilty and he went to prison. So I said, fine, well, I'll have a conversation with him. And to be honest, if I'm really honest, and Rydan won't mind this, I was apprehensive to talk to him, but I chatted to him and he was completely fascinating in lots of ways.

4:11Now, I do want to caveat that with is that in today's episode, you know, we do speak a lot about his experience as a business owner. He talked very openly about the mistakes he made. He went to prison. He served time. He did it. I think he's incredibly sorry for lots of things he's done. And I don't think there's any excuses for what he did and how he went about it. But what I found more fascinating is when someone who lived a pretty, one would argue, a sort of normal-ish life loses everything. And then he has to pay pretty much one of the ultimate prices, which is losing his freedom and going into prison.

4:50And the fascinating thing for me about the story is when your liberty is taken away from you and you sit in your cell and you suddenly have the realization that you are going to be in prison for the next six and a half years of your life. How on earth do you mentally get through that? And it nearly broke him. And what is incredible about Riordan is that he read over 400 books. He worked on mental resilience and he's come out a changed man in lots of different ways and today's episode explores everything about that yeah it's fascinating it's really fascinating and i guess normally on great company we have guests who people will know the names of and sometimes we have experts and with experts you know they're on for a specific subject but this is one of those episodes where he's not an expert no he's not a celebrity no but it's an episode where we're saying trust us guys trust us and listen to this yeah and listen to this story.

5:46Because what, you know, what Great Company is about is about connections and listening to amazing people and interesting people and people's stories. And this is a person with a story. So we really hope you enjoy this episode. If you haven't already, please subscribe to the show. You can find us on social media at Great Company Podcast, or you can find us on TikTok and you can email us anything at all. Let us know if you like the episode, let us know what you want our next guest to be or who you want on. We want to hear all of that. And we really hope you enjoy this episode. You ready for this?

6:13Oh, boy, are you guys ready for this. Here we go. Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Rirdon Maynard. Hi, I'm Rirdon Maynard and I'm in Great Company.

6:29Do you still write letters? I can tell you. Well, I'm not now. But whilst I was away, I've never written so many letters. I mean, I wrote every day for at least two hours or maybe three hours did you writing letters yeah long i mean some of them are mental and some of them are completely deranged and you know because i would write to my mom and my wife and totally out of character as well because i'm not very emotional as a person well i wasn't and now i am well no i don't know whether i am now but i definitely became more emotional while i was in the clink if you have two hours a day to write is that how you want to spend your time because you want to keep your mind distracted partially yeah prison really is a test of the mind really i think because it's it's i mean it's just um you it's quite difficult to articulate what it's like because it's especially for someone like me because i've come from a very normal place yeah you know a lovely upbringing and amazing family and had a really successful business.

7:42So to then be thrown into this sort of alternative universe was quite, it was quite, um, it was quite something. But, um, but the biggest enemy in prison is boredom. I think, I mean, there's lots of stuff. You've got a lot of violence, loads, uh, it's very edgy all the time it's edgy and um there's of course all sorts of characters you have lovely people and you have awful people like life yeah i suppose it's like a microcosm of life yeah um but you you bored boredom's the biggest problem and so you you have to try and fill i mean i made the decision when i went in i wasn't particularly successful in the first few months at this quest but I made the decision when I went in that I would make the best of every day, every single day.

8:37That was my, I wanted really to come out much better than when I went in and that would fuck the US department of justice. Because if I went in, if I came out a shambles, they'd have won, wouldn't they? But if I came out loads better in every way, you know, whether that was from a fitness perspective or mentally or emotionally or spiritually whatever you know any dimension then um then i'd have won i think and i think i after the first few months were brutal i mean crushingly difficult i i want to get into every little detail of this let's go but i think i think in order to understand where this all happened we sort of have to go back a little bit before.

9:24So I don't, I don't quite want to jump into bed with you before we've had some foreplay. I don't mind these days. I'll just jump in, but let's, let's go with the foreplay. Where did you grow up? Just south of London in Lingfield, St. Surrey. Mum, dad. Yeah. My father, unfortunately he died when I was in prison, which was very sad. Um, Um, but, um, they stayed together. Yeah. I mean, I mean, incredibly successful marriage and very happy. I had the most amazing childhood, you know, I mean, I can't, there's nothing I can blame. You can't blame one person. It's not my mom. It's not my dad. It's me.

10:09I am responsible for this situation. So yeah. Affluent, you know? Yeah, I think very, I mean, not very affluent, but very comfortable. You know, never want for anything. My father was a successful business guy. I left school very early. So I left at 16. As soon as I could, I hated school. And I was shit at it as well. So I got out as quickly as I could. And I really wanted to get a job. That's all I wanted to do was get a job. So I went and got a job. I left school at 16, got a job. Doing what? just an office junior running around the city with envelopes mainly and people telling me what to do you know make me a coffee or fill my parking meter that was my favorite one fill my well fill your fucking parking meter but that that i wasn't very good at taking orders but i i so i got my job and um because you were driven by money or you why didn't you like school because you i hate being told what to do same ah you are gonna you're gonna sing to so many people in this because yeah being told what to do and hating that which i did as well also i imagine you you're obviously clearly incredibly charismatic so you must have been popular i'm sorry this is how i charm you this is how i charm you but you must thanks very much jamie yeah so tell me more but big family yes you know you middle child that's important so you're competitive yeah and desperate for recognition yeah yeah okay you'll see am i gonna end up in prison because you're singing everything.

11:42Well, you've got to be careful. Let me just give you one piece of advice. Pay your tax. That would be my singular piece of advice. So you then get this job. You leave school 16. You decide I'm going to go into the world. You go and get these jobs and you're working in the city. So what are you doing? Oh, it's a property company. So I wasn't working in the city like a finance person, but it was a property, like a chartered surveyors. And I was genuine office junior and I was running around. And then very quickly, they let me do some office viewings. I mean, I'm only like 16 and a half or something.

12:16And they let me do these. What the people must have thought, I don't know. So I'm wandering around these big warehouses in like Shoreditch, Old Street Roundabout, which used to be like a bomb site. Now it's like very fancy. But so I'd show them these buildings around there. And anyway, I did some deals, you know, quite quick. And that's what I loved. That's when I just absolutely loved doing deals. Then someone said to me, oh, if you're going to get on in this business, you've got to go to college and do a chartered surveyors. I said, oh, how long is that going to take? And they said, three or four years.

12:55I said, you fucking nuts. There's no way I'm wasting three or four years. So then I went into residential, you know, state agency. Because it was quicker. Yeah. And you didn't need any qualifications. And so that was when I was about 17 or 18. And that was just stupendous. I mean, the market was on fire. It's been the 90s. Not the 90s. No, 88. Year as born. Something like that. Okay. But the market was, I mean, like a four-year-old could have sold houses. So I did really well. And then there was an enormous crash. if you remember well you won't but um and it all got rather difficult you know hard and so then i that's when me and my best friends got involved in this mobile phone business we took over this mobile phone business in fulham we started flogging mobile phones uh when they were very expensive was at the same time as um who started car phone warehouse yeah it's exactly so don't go comparing me to him what is it dunston he's slightly more successful i think well and david ross and was it david ross and david ross yeah selling houses you like making deals it's kind of interesting you know it everyone has a typically has a house so then you move into both phones you're thinking well this is what everyone wants everyone's going to need one of these probably so you're quite i don't know whether that gives the impression i know what i'm doing yeah but does anyone really I'm not sure.

14:25Maybe. I think what I loved was just selling. I love selling. I love the interaction. I like the deal. And the product. I really liked mobile. I still like them, strangely enough. The gadget gimmick, you know, like electronic gadgets. But I'm not particularly technical. But driven by making money? I don't think I am. I mean, I don't really know. I just like the deal. And I also love, as the company, well, that company, we fell out with the guy who provided us with the money to buy it. And so that was quite short-lived, but we did well in that time. And we started shipping phones into China through Hong Kong, and there was all sorts of really interesting stuff from a little shop in Fulham.

15:15Then we decided, myself and my friend decided to set up our own thing, pure, and asked my father to come and help us because he was financial and operational. He really understood money. Clearly, I don't understand. It all happened to me. Even at 56, I don't understand money. The three of us set this company up called Touchbase. um and can i just quickly ask a question on that because i think a lot of um a lot of entrepreneurs right which i i would sort of consider myself one are typically quite creative and um probably not very good at the detail and typically not very analytical and do you think that businesses live or die by having someone in it who is financially sound 100 % I mean absolutely I mean let me tell you from experience that's important yeah you need someone who is annoying you know who they annoy you and they would they just annoy me yeah that's interesting yeah that's really interesting okay and so then you start up touch base yes what happens next well we we were based in whopping in a flat and whopping so we just cold called tons of people from that flat and we started winning these fantastic accounts like jp morgan and goldman sachs just like because of course the market's not established it's not like you think of it now it wasn't established and so it was new and so you could go in and if you had a good pitch and our pitch was very good you know we were very focused on service and lots of the providers were very transactional no one was really doing business to business so that's what we decided to do and that's what we enjoyed and just very quickly you're when you say cell cover you're selling you're selling to businesses mobile phone yeah mobile phones basically basically yeah very and it's very i mean at the time they were very expensive you you know they're like massive or they're suitcases or you put them in the car you know they're it's totally different and what do they cost uh about 15 uh funnily enough not dissimilar to now about 1500 quid but you you remember they they then became free before before the iphone yeah sort of changed the game but um they were they were 1500 to maybe three and a half grand then oh then we took on this we did a deal with at &t which is the big u.s telecoms company i mean like the bt of america they wanted to bring their telephone system so not mobile but the the telephone system in the you know you don't again you don't really have them now but everyone used to have a telephone system um and uh they wanted to bring their enterprise level which is like mega technology sort of mega size to the uk and um we said all right we'll have a go so we became like one of two or three early partners of theirs still working with your dad at this point yeah yeah yeah yeah we're all there and uh there was about 10 probably 10 employees by then doing a few hundred grand a year not bad yeah it was all right that's probably what a million quid now yeah something probably yeah so we take we take this product on and the whole it just goes fucking out of control because it's basically like the us all of the us companies use at &t and all of the us companies that are in the uk want someone to help them with their phone system and so you can imagine the scale of that squeezing into a little market like the uk and then an even smaller channel distribution channel which is like three or four partners went off the fucking charts and so just grew it grew grew grew grew went all over europe all over the us all over asia pacific what was your turnover 100 million i think 200 million dollars something like that yeah and loads of people everywhere i mean the whole thing was completely out of control in a positive way yeah you know you went to prison i did yeah and when anyone ever says that you go well why did that happen yeah so i ask you the question Why did you go to prison?

19:53Well, technically, I went to prison because one of my companies ran up a very big tax bill with the IRS in America. Who are the IRS? The Internal Revenue Service, like the Inland Revenue in the UK.

20:11And it ran up that bill by using tax money for cash flow. when the global financial crisis came in 2008 2009 we touch base lost about 100 million dollars worth of deals in about three days and your turnover at the moment with touch base was about 100 200 million dollars yeah so you lost half the but it was growing like it was growing like 30 a quarter i mean it was it was just stratospheric and then this global financial crisis came and everything froze because in those situations, people freeze their expenditure. Every company, you just freeze it. And for us, that was catastrophic because I had got way carried away.

20:58I thought I was some sort of business god. Here comes Midas. And so I'm you know, setting up offices everywhere, people, you know, I mean, it's, I was totally out of control. In an arrogant way? Yes. Yeah, a terrible, but no, I don't think I was ever nasty arrogant. You thought you were untouchable? I definitely think I was amazing. I thought I was amazing. Yeah. And, and, um, and when you say everything was out of control, give me some examples of what that means. It's just like a frenetic pace of existence. that you can't, I mean, it's just like relentless. Like I would go to Sydney for lunch, then I might go to Singapore.

21:44I mean, I would, you know, everyone within every company was completely worked to death. I mean, it's like, I mean, it was like a relentless, but it was not negative. It was extraordinarily uplifting. I mean, everyone was excited and, And, you know, the clients were really happy. And yeah, it was a very good business. I mean, it was a fantastic business. Were you sleeping much? No. I mean, my life was ghastly looking back. But you enjoyed it? At the time I did, yeah. But there was a lot of, well, it's difficult now because you sort of think, well, was that worth it? Because, you know, and I was working constantly.

22:28I mean, like every day, all day or night, traveling every week. My poor wife. I mean, seriously. Kids? Yeah, I've got five children. Never really there. I don't think, I mean, she would have to tell you and they would have to tell you. I don't think I was a bad husband or a bad father when I was there. I think I was, you know, I was, well, I don't know. I don't think I was particularly well engaged. You were just focused. I was very stressed a lot of the time, especially when it started to go pear-shaped. but you get caught up in the hubris you you start to think you're really you start to successful you know you think your your decisions are amazing and you started to believe the hype as soon as you think you're cool that's the moment you're not yeah you're absolutely and that's that's basically what happened and so then this massive contraction occurred and we had no money and we started with 5 000 quid So I was like the cash flow king.

23:25I mean, I am the cash, well, until the IRS froze the old cash flow. And then it didn't quite work quite so well. But that's how we built the company, on cash flow. So of course, when you take the cash flow out, which is what losing these deals did, it's like immediately, I mean, everything went tits up. So that's the point at which we had to start selling things off. and then we closed some bits and then I kept the US because I was living in the US at the time and I wanted to try and get that back to health. But it did have a big tax liability and we never, we did well over the next few years, but we never overcome that liability, overcame that liability.

24:13And eventually the IRS said, well, they didn't say, the IRS acted. They have immense power, the IRS in America, much more than our tax services. They don't have any... It's equivalent to the HMRC here, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So they put liens on the accounts. They then swept the accounts. What does that mean? They took all the money out. So they just took it. Because you owed money. Yeah. How much money did you owe? About$5 million. Which would have been around that time. Maybe you could double it. So maybe 10. Probably, yeah. Yeah. But what's bizarre in all of it is that my communication with the IRS was constant.

24:57I mean, I was constantly communicating with them. And our deal flow would have supported the repayment of the IRS. But they didn't want that. They just wanted to draw a line under it. So they took the money out of the accounts. They froze the accounts. and the biggest killer, because at that stage, I was just funneling money in to pay the bills, to pay the people, to pay the, you know, funnel it, funnel it, they're funneling it out, I'm funneling it in, and they're taking it, I'm putting it in, and it was like a game. And that's what I got in trouble for, because I was moving money around. And because I didn't, I was putting it in.

25:33I didn't want them taking mine, which I wanted to pay the people with, and the overheads i didn't want them taking it to their tax so i started moving it around and then that's when they got upset and then they wrote to the clients and that was the hard that was the that that finished the company what you were doing was it illegal well clearly i mean i've just brilliant thank you jamie for your uh yeah uh well well let me know i know why you asked i know why you ask well can i i'm gonna say i asked it i asked it because you you went to court yes and you pleaded not guilty i did yeah and i still say i'm not guilty yeah but but then that's confusing because you say what you were doing was illegal well what i why i laughed at that is because technically it is illegal to they couldn't do me for tax evasion because i was fully we were fully disclosing our situation.

26:38We were in constant conversation with them. I mean, in fact, I did a settlement deal with them. I said, you know, on the basis that we agree this, I said, I would take a million dollars of the debt personally. Would you agree not to take matters any further? And they said, yeah, okay, deal done. And then some guy, I think, this is me surmising, must have gone to the files and thought oh i need to find some case you know to make my name with or to have a go at or justify my existence and they found mine and a year later they arrested me they rocked up to turn up at the house you know wait so you're living where in denver colorado yeah in colorado yeah with your family with your kids yeah yeah yeah yeah what time is it 6 30 in the morning and then they they come and knock on the door but funnily enough i was at starbucks so so i got a little bit of a forward warning so they swung by starbucks to pick me up that was amusing but they have all the they have all the guns and i mean it's a ghastly process because it really, I mean, of course, personally, it's upsetting.

27:58But for the children, I mean, whoever comes up with these brilliant ideas about how to arrest people for this type of crime, they're imbeciles because it has a very significant impact on children, seeing these men with guns. And they're all aggressive. They're all, I mean, they're such... dicks, to be honest. Seriously, I don't know what's happened to them in their life, but that arrest was very upsetting, the way in which they did it. Because I had never not attended a meeting with the IRS or the Department of Justice or the Department of Labor. I had never tried to hide from the situation, ever, not once.

28:45And so to do that, I just thought it was just overkill idiots. But anyway, so they arrested me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was. Yeah. And I mean, just totally awful. I mean, it's just like sort of crushing, crushing. Can't believe it's happening. Nightmare. Yeah. Because if they'd done it a year earlier, I could have believed it because it was messy. The end of TouchWaste was messy. People, you know, because they froze all the assets and the company couldn't pay its 401k which is like a pension plan it couldn't pay its health care which in america is fundamental and so it was really messy and that's what they engineered my criminal case into which was a pension health care tax fraud case you um you have a seven-day trial i think it was yeah and yeah you get found not guilty oh you forget sorry thanks very much you get found guilty i do get found guilty yeah you go to prison yeah in america did the judge say anything to you when you find your hearing and you're standing there and look we've all seen movies and tv shows is it similar to that where you're standing very similar so what happens it's seventh day, you're about to hear the hearing.

30:07Well, the trial process is brutal because it's basically, I had a shit lawyer. I mean, really farcical because I couldn't afford a lawyer. So they gave me one. And of course, they're employed by the court. So it doesn't feel like they defend you. So you essentially have the prosecution viscerating you for days. I mean, full on by the by the end of the trial by the end of the trial you genuinely believe you are the worst person in the world that has ever existed and that no one could ever want to spend one second with you ever again and that your life is i mean i can't i can't articulate well enough how awful you feel because of what they say about you and how they skew your motives and the things that you've done.

31:05And they get people to talk against you. I mean, the Department of Justice in America is an extraordinarily powerful and manipulative organization. Once they decide they want you, you're fucked. I mean, frankly, one of the biggest mistakes I made is not to settle. Because I don't believe you asked this question about how can I say I was not guilty if I did what they said. I did do what they said, but none of it was, there's this thing called mens rea, which is a latin term which means uh that you act with uh with guilty intent my intent was always to protect the company make it successful repay its bills pay its people all that sort of stuff and that's why i i pleaded not guilty guilty using the mens rea defense which is quite common because i thought i was not guilty and i said to my lawyer i'm not settling why would a not guilty guy settle.

32:12But when I got to prison, they said to me, did you go to trial? I said, yeah. They all looked at me like I was mental. I mean, full on. People in prison. Yeah. You never go to trial. No one ever goes to trial because they win 96.8 % or something, 97 % of their cases. The whole system is, I mean, we don't need a discussion about the US justice system because it won't be very constructive. But... So can you tell me, what were the charges against you? I'm probably going to get these wrong, because I actually haven't looked. But they upset me a bit too much. But interfering with the IRS's ability to do its job, which technically is true, because I was moving money around out of their reach.

33:03Conspiracy to defraud the United States. That's my favorite one. Sounds very grand. Because they argued that myself and my finance director had planned to move the money around so they couldn't get it, which technically is correct. But there was no conspiracy. It's such a stupid term. I mean, wasn't we weren't conspiring to to defraud anyone and then lots related to the health care plan and the 401k the pension plan those were the most upsetting the tax one i don't care about i mean we fucked up with the tax that's the way it is lots of people do it the health care and the pension one are very upsetting for me because they involve the people of the company and some people did lose money and that's upsetting.

34:00And I, you know, I, I'm quite lighthearted about some aspects of this journey, but that I take very seriously and I'm very, I'm obviously very sorry for it. And, um, I, I continue to feel very, very bad. And my mission is to get to a point where I can start repaying some of these people, not the IRS.

34:30When you go into prison, what is it like? Well, I went through the trial. Then the sentencing was extraordinary because on the way to the court, I said to Tara, who's my wife, my long-suffering... She's put up with a lot. Oh, my God. Yeah. Good Christ. that's got to be solvents remarkable i mean i'm not joking i just can't she's just absolutely ridiculously remarkable slightly non-existent husband at the beginning that goes to prison well and still non-existent i mean she's in colorado she doesn't live here it's like i don't blame her i mean so we're on the way to the we're on the way to the sentencing i said, she's not going to put me in.

35:20I'm not going to be put in prison. They'll give me a suspended sentence. At worst, they'll give me home detention. Genuinely, that was my, I could not conceive how anyone could put someone in prison for what they did me for. Anyway, so to get to the court, stand up in front of this judge. I mean, clearly she hated me, which is a shame because usually I'm very good with women but she really hated me and um whatever happened she she's I did my statement you know I said I'm I'm genuinely I was very sorry and you're nervous very nervous yeah I mean yeah very nervous more nervous than you can ever possibly even explain yeah although don't forget I thought I was going home you thought you're going home so you thought you're going home with a tag on your foot and that was gonna be it at worst.

36:14Wow. And she said, I came in yesterday, this was a Monday, she said, I came in yesterday, which was her Sunday, especially to consider this case. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I've decided to be lenient. So I'm thinking, fucking great. Maybe not even a suspect. She said, I'm going to give you 72 months. And I thought, are you out of your mind? I mean, an armed robber who goes into a bank and takes the money with a gun might get four and a half years. Five years? This is six and a half years. Anyway, so that was crushing, of course. But then the IRS guy came up to me and said, he was all happy with himself of course and uh he said don't worry you'll be in a camp it's like going to a holiday camp and it's just down the road from your house so i thought all right not too bad so that was shocking the six and a half years then you get a couple of weeks they let you go you walk out and you go home yeah it's weird system because you're which i was very grateful for because the alternative is that from the day they arrest you you are in county jail which is very rough and that would have been like a year and a year earlier so they let me go home and i was allowed to self-surrender so they said within a few weeks someone will call you and tell you where to surrender.

38:00And the judge said, you'll be in a place near your family. Oh, and they find me $5 million. So I said, I've got five children, a wife completely dependent on me. The IRS has taken all my money. You're going to put me somewhere and you find me$5 million. You're going to put me somewhere where I can't earn one cent for six and a half years. It's mental. she she said we don't want the money we just need to make an example of you and so that's that was the sentence thing and then and then um can i can i ask a question when you go home for those two weeks and you have to say goodbye to your family and all these different things to speak to your friends is there any part of you which gets um tempted to run for it.

38:50Yeah. Every part of you. I mean, I considered that a lot. And Tara said, if you want to go, go. You know, and wow. Yeah. Yeah. Why not? I mean, Did you plan? No, I don't think. To be honest, I must be delusional. I mean, there's something in my character, which is how I must be a coping mechanism or something. It's a mental trick that because the minute I was sentenced, I get the six and a half years. I immediately then think, okay, I'll be out in a year. I'll get the appeal going. I'm similar to that. I always think that. Yeah. That's so interesting. I do the same thing with lots of stuff. I'll be right.

39:37I'll get through that. Yeah. It's the only way. Otherwise, how can you, because you can't comprehend. You can't process it. Yeah. And so I did think about running. And even while I was in prison, most of the time I thought, fuck, I should have really done a runner. But now I'm really pleased I didn't. Because where would you have gone? Yeah. And wherever I went, they would go. And you would look over your shoulder for the rest of your life. And then it would be triple horrific. And living in fear for the rest of your life. That's a really sort of short term goal for a long term existence. Agreed.

40:14Also, it was incredibly good for me, prison. I mean, I'm not being like some idiot. It was the one thing that was brutal was the family side. Because what I was going to tell you is what happened was none of those predictions about location became true. Because I was an immigrant, they put me in a prison in California, which was okay. It was, it was like, it was all right. An immigrant's prison. Um, but a thousand miles from Tara and the children. And then they put me in a really rough place in, um, Pennsylvania. Was it? Yeah. Pennsylvania. Um, and then they moved me to a super rough place in another part of Pennsylvania.

41:04Um, and then I ended up in this sort of mid rough, but I, but at all times I was away from tara and the children so i didn't see them for four years and because covid came then they couldn't visit and then tara and i decided it's too much you know why do they want to come and see you in front of the screen wow hello i haven't seen you for a couple of years oh you look you've grown it's like poor things so um what the fuck just you mentioned before that So you go into, you're in California. How old are you at that point? You're. When I go in, 50. Exactly 50. Exactly 50. Yeah, I just had my 50th birthday.

41:44And 10 years before you're having your 40th birthday in Singapore. Yeah. And I was like living it up. Living it up. And then something that. I'd never thought of it like that. 10 years later. Thanks, Jamie. Don't worry about it. Just feeling good. Feeling good. Feeling good. But hang on, you said the first two months was brutal. Oh my God. But just get me to the mental space and like that kind of thing. What happens to the mind, to the body, to the person, to everything, to the soul? Well, firstly, they had set my expectations wrong. And that was bad because they had told me I was going to go to a camp and that I'd be near the children and Tara.

42:21So that was a bad start. And so I learned that I'm going to be in California in an immigrant prison and not in a camp. I'm not allowed in a camp because I'm an immigrant. And there are no fences in camps. Camps are basically camps. They're quite nice. Your children can come and have a barbecue. You know, it's actually, they're not bad. And so that's a bad start. So I get to the prison. And the other thing is that I'm an avid smoker. My whole life I've smoked. And so I have my last cigarette and I haven't smoked since. And that's one of the greatest gifts the IRS gave me. But I put it out. feeling strangely okay quite interested yeah i don't know where i was mentally but i was i was straight i was i was all right and then i go in to the prison through the reception through the metal detector strip naked get washed down like the films just like the films with the hose yeah and then um they put the uh jumpsuit on you it's all just like the movies and then they put you in a holding cell and you can be in the whole i was in the holding cell for about three hours and that was the worst i got i mean that was when i i was hyperventilating then i suddenly realized I was in prison.

43:53That was the first time. Before that, I don't know where I was, frankly. No, you're too optimistic to even comprehend it. Yeah, I don't know what was going on in my brain, but that was, I suddenly realized I wasn't coming out for a long time. And that was hard. And then that was when they also told me I wasn't going in a camp. that was also hard because because i've suddenly i'm i'm going to a proper like a grown-ups prison and and you're i mean i have not got a clue about what's going on with prison so i get in just to give you an example i get they give me all my gear you have to walk across the the courtyard everyone's looking at you and they're making noise you're walking across with all your gear and um oh my god i get into the uh unit the block get to the bed and i'm fucking i'm shitting myself i'm full-on shitting because you just don't know what you just don't know thinking shawshank redemption you're thinking i think someone's gonna shag me

45:09keep your pants on so um so this guy comes up to me and i i don't know in a cell by yourself no no no no in this prison it was open it was semi-open so it's sort of little breeze block cells but with they were open at the top and there's there's about 150 people maybe more all sleeping together in this room and um i mean i haven't got a clue what's going on i go into go in get in my bunk i've got the shittiest bunk because you're new and in an immigrant prison I'm nothing because I'm English. They're full of Mexicans. They run, it's run by Mexicans as you, as they would be because they're the predominant immigrant race in America.

46:04And so, so I get in the bunk, this guy comes up to me and I'm, I'm scared. I don't know. Do you talk to people? Don't you talk to, I don't know anything. I've got no etiquette. I don't know what the rules are. So this guy comes up to me and he goes, um, who do you run with? I said, I haven't been running yet. he said no no no he said what car are you in i said what he said what oh what group are you what group are you with i said i haven't decided yet i'm gonna have a look around see which i genuinely said he's looking at me like i'm fucking mental i mean he's like can't compute anyway it transpires that what he wants to know is which whether i'm with the white supremacists or whether I'm with the um the Crips or the Bloods or the Paisans or the I mean they have all these gangs I mean there's just gang after that's how it runs the whole system runs on gangs I said I said I haven't got a clue I said I don't want to be in a gang he said you haven't got an option you've got to be in a gang I'm gonna start my own so i actually quite successfully in that prison avoided being in a gang so you didn't go into a no because well i was sort of part of this thing called the others which is basically which was really nice it was all of the others who weren't particularly well represented so i was in the minority for once in my life what was your handshake did you have No, there was no secret handshake, but we had little meetings.

47:50We did. And they were lovely. I must say, one of the things about prison that's quite interesting is how well organized it is. Really? At an inmate level. Wow. Not at an operational level. Actually, I think the American prisons are run very well, I think, because it's a massive organization, as you can imagine. American prisons are also privately owned. Yeah. So all the inmates are the customers. That's true. That's true. Which is... Some are privately owned. Some are state. Sorry, some are federally owned. Okay. But you're right. Which seems counterproductive. It's odd. The private ones are odd because it's profit.

48:31It's for profit. So the more people you have in prison, the more profit you're making. Unfortunately, that is... They don't want you to leave. I can tell you that. They absolutely don't want... And if you leave, they want you to come back. so um yeah so that what was your role in the gang well that that not nothing really in that one

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50:36Did you ever have to fight anyone in prison? No. Never? I got into a real pickle with a couple of guys. One of the problems I've got is I have no tolerance, especially for rudeness. I mean, disrespect and rudeness, forget it. I mean, you'd think that a little chap like me, who hasn't had a fight since he was at school, would keep his mouth shut. but i can't keep my mouth shut so these there was this guy sitting on a bunk sort of three or four bunks from me all day he would go on and on about his life you know he's just shouting and talking loudly and making everyone listen to his business all day all day i'm not joking all day so a few days went by and i i think it was a sunday or something and i went up to her i said look you're gonna have to shut the fuck up because you're driving me insane and also no one in this place wants to know your business we don't want to know what's going you keep you have your conversation with your whoever you're having the conversation i'll have my conversation with whoever i'm we don't need to hear about your life you know i went awful i completely fucking lost it and then i walked off and then i was doing at the time they were on lockdown and i was in a dormitory environment and the only way you could get exercise was to walk around i mean mindless walk around the beds so i then i continue to walk around the beds anyway this guy with his mate and these guys are massive.

52:23They come up to me, push, not physically, but they move me by moving themselves into a corner. And they said, no one tells us what to do in our prison. And I said, oh, I'm terribly sorry. I'm new. I don't know any of the rules. All I know is that you look like much you look much too intelligent to think that it's acceptable to be shouting around if all 140 of us shout all day anyway i went on calmed them down but they but they they were really going to beat the shit out of me and the the the one that i challenged said at the end you know i'm in here for murder, don't you? I can't control my temper.

53:15I said, actually, I didn't know that, but it's good to know. And then off they went and it calmed down. That was my most... And then there were other instances where my gang had, you know, you would... Not mine, the one that I was in. The others. No, no, this is later. Oh, you're in a new gang? Oh, I had to go into the whites. When you go into a proper place, you have to go into your race. Really? Yeah, yeah. It's all very race-based. Wait, hang on. So you then get moved. Is this in Pennsylvania? No. So then I'm in California. So in California, I had experienced this terrible despair. Yeah. I mean, proper, like...

53:56Depression, anxiety. Yeah, extraordinary. And I've never had that before. So it was quite, I mean, in retrospect, quite valuable. And then I just... Can I ask you just a really awful question before you... Do lots of people take their own life in prison? Yeah. All the time. All the time. Yeah. Because it's just hopeless. Yeah, it's not uncommon at all. Yeah. I mean, you... And you can sort of see them going. You can't do much about it. You become very mercenary. You don't really... Nothing really phases you. Really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I had someone beaten to death in front of me with a lock in a sock.

54:36Yeah. I mean, it's like, you can't believe it. It's like, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's surreal. I can't even, I can't even process that I was in there. Yeah. So you become very, and you can't do anything. No, you mustn't do anything. You absolutely mustn't. Why? Well, because it conflicts with lots of rules. They have all sorts of rules about, um, fighting and, uh, which frankly all makes sense. Explain that to me. Basically, you're organized into gangs of, they call them cars, people that you ride with. That's why they call it a car. It's like school when you get put into houses. Basically, yeah.

55:19It's very similar and it organizes itself. It's a bit like Lord of the Flies. It basically organizes itself with the toughest at the top and the weakest at the bottom. That's how it works. Is it done on toughest? uh yeah i mean or i suppose most influential okay and so you're in the the gangs and then there's two options you either if i wanted to fight you i can have a fight with you um one-to-one but if anyone else gets involved like if one of your mates from your gang helps you then it becomes a gang a group affair and so um so there's quite a lot of one-off fights there's not many all-in fights wow so there are rules yeah loads of rules you can't believe how many rules i mean and that's how it runs because the guards it is quite smartly done it's very very good yeah and it's that's one of the things when you get to know it that makes it doable because the unknowns gently disappear and you start to feel a bit more in control so when this person is beaten next to you with a lock and a sock yeah that's brutal yeah that is brutal yeah yeah that was absolutely brutal i mean blood everywhere i mean it's really nasty and the guy dies yeah yeah yeah i mean that was horrible

56:50does that scar and does that not or do you just it's it's you're sort of you you sort of put it into a box and just go well that was just yeah you you're so what do they call it the disassociation you disassociate yourself yeah yeah i think that's what you do you must do because it doesn't affect me at all wow because it's sort of like interesting enough it's like the god it's sort of the animal kingdom in a way it's like leopards attacking but that is what it is like that i mean that's what unfettered, uncontrolled human is like, I think. Humans are like, I think.

57:31You know, the thing about prison, which you sort of always think, is that first night. Yeah. And it's like, I recently re-watched Shawshank Redemption, that's where I bring it up. Yeah. It's quite accurate, that. I mean, it's old, but... But yeah, the inmates make bets on who's going to cry out first, or make noises first, or scream first or call for their mum first. And it's quite a harrowing scene. And then the guards come in and beat them up. And it's a bit all... Any of that realistic? Yeah, very realistic. Yeah, you feel... Well, there are lots of people who are suffering badly in prison, mentally.

58:05Lots. It is a serious problem. Over 50 % of people incarcerated have a head injury, apparently. Is that right? In the UK, yeah. Yeah, I'm not surprised. And that leads to... constant noise in the environment because they're not well mentally. I mean, they're genuinely not well. And nothing is done about it. I mean, they're literally just left to... So that's why you do get that type of environment with lots of awful noises. I mean, it's a bit like one flew over the cuckoo's nest all the time. But that was very difficult to deal with. But the first night's terrible. And then it just gets progressively worse.

58:49Until you... So that's my experience. But explain why. Because mentally you start to break down? Yeah. You start to realize the gravity. I start to realize the gravity of the situation. And I found for the first time, because I've always been very good at converting situations to my advantage mentally this was the first time that i that wasn't working i was just spiraling mentally spiraling into just doom scenarios i mean relentless doom scenarios all about tara and the children all you know because to me that was really the only thing the other stuff it doesn't really matter does it no you suddenly realize what matters in life yeah and then you get the most crushing guilt and then you get extraordinary anxiety from the environment because it's edge it's so edgy what do you mean by edgy there's it's always just about to kick off and it's always just there's always just be a it's going to be a fight or someone's going to get pissed off with someone else or there's going to be a gang fighting another gang or it's always constant it's 24 7 relentless so and you spoke about hopelessness yeah and that's when i became hopeless because and i and later i worked out why which is that i had basically my whole life i've had a very clear picture of what i want what i want to achieve at any given time it's not not always it's not been constant but i've always had a really really clear vision of why I'm here, what I'm trying to do.

1:00:37Why am I going to? This is why I was saying to you earlier, why am I going to work? Why am I working 20 hours a day? Where is it going? What am I trying to achieve? All this. So my future was very clear. And so for the first time, it was the opposite. My future was not very compelling. I couldn't see how I could possibly get even to do another week, let alone another six and a half years. Um, and that, and, and I could tell how upset Tara was. I mean, she was mortified. You know, we've been together since she was 19 and I was 26 or something. Yes. I mean, it's just a horrible situation. That's what's so terrible about the, I don't dispute that if I've done something wrong, I should be punished a hundred percent, but the punishment really, of course it was quite difficult for me.

1:01:31But the punishment is really on the family. It's not really on the person who did the deed. Because you're just sitting thinking they have to suffer. Yeah, I mean, they've got to live a life. They've got it on their own. And, you know, all the support system's gone. And I mean, I've got my laundry. I get fed. I mean, I can read books. I read 450 books while I was in there. I mean, who gets to read 450 books when they're 50? No one. so it is all a bit skewed the system was there any shame for tara having a husband in prison yes shocking i mean that's ghast and for the children they're bullied and brutal yeah i mean they that's why they're so amazing i mean they are genuinely amazing all the children are incredible uh tara's remarkable and that's that's what is terrible about the situation is their experience not mine really do you think that's the only thing that makes you emotional when you really think about it.

1:02:28Yeah, don't push me too much, because I know what you're doing. Yeah, I mean, very emotional. I mean, what is remarkable is my relationship with them now, which is brilliant, I think. They may have a different opinion of that, but based on the circumstances, we get on amazingly well. And from myself and all the children and Tara, we get on incredibly well. It's a very positive relationship. And even in prison, it was very positive. How do you cope? I want to understand the mental resilience. Oh, yeah. So this is, well, that tracks back to the very start when I lost the plot. I mean, properly, didn't think I was going to make it.

1:03:15Completely suicidal. Because there's no hope at all. Do you talk to anyone in there about it? No, you mustn't show weakness at all. you must never show weakness otherwise you're going to get no you mustn't show weakness if you show weakness what happens well you get dominated in some form hopefully not sexually but there's a lot of there's a lot of sex that goes on yeah you you mustn't ever show weakness for instance if someone wanted to take your food you couldn't allow that because then you'd never eat so how do you resist that just say you're not having it yeah i just say you're not having it yeah and then you just wait see what happens but if you've got the front they're usually quite yeah usually well in my case they did but but latterly i start i learned how to get alliances you know with with people so you're hopeless oh yeah so i'm in this hopeless i mean and then suddenly I realized, well, you've got your only option is either to go or sort yourself out.

1:04:32And so then I just obviously I decided to sort myself out. And so I then started working, I started reading a lot of self development books. And then I came across this book called Mind is the Master, which is actually about 20 different books, all put into one by this one guy written in the 1920s. I can't remember his name. They're really sort of mental development. I don't like to call them tricks because they're not... I don't really... mechanisms. James Allen. James Allen. Yeah. And then my brother sent me a book called Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, who is very famous for being a concentration camp inmate.

1:05:21And his observations, he then turned into this book. And then he, I think he might've been a psychiatrist before he even became a prisoner. But on his release, he then developed a whole system of psychiatry, which was based on the basic principle that the way in which you interpret what you experience determines what you experience. Does that make sense? And that really changed my life, really. But explain that deeper to me. Well, it basically means that the way that you interpret events determines the impact those events will have on you. Give me a scenario. Well, I'm in prison and it's shit.

1:06:12It's really bad. And I can wallow in that. Or I can think to myself, actually, what 56-year-old, actually, I wasn't 56 at the time, what 50-year-old man gets all this time to themselves to develop themselves, to get super fit, to read 450 books, to learn things that I need to know. I want to know about finance. I spent loads of time learning about finance because that was the bit that fucked me. My lack of knowledge and interest in finance. And so I start to think of this spell in prison as a gift, a genuine gift. And also the guy who went into prison was a dick, not a full on dick. I mean, I wouldn't, I don't want to comment, but he wasn't, he thought he was quite special.

1:07:07And it turns out he wasn't actually that special at all. So there's all this scope for improvement and that doesn't negate all the negatives with the family and everything. But I then started to really get into that, this idea that actually I've got four years, five years or six years, depending on what they wanted to do with the six and a half they gave me to completely transform myself. Who else is going to get that? I mean, you won't get that. No. And it's an amazing realization to have that. Yeah. It's extraordinary. But can I just understand the mind here? Do you think we have control over the mind?

1:07:50100%. 1000%. That was the biggest realization I had. Yeah. So the moments that we have, which when we feel maybe anxious or scared or depressed about situations or, and look, I understand there are some chemical imbalances. I can't talk about anything to do with the medical. But situational issues when you're, you think you can mentally flip that in your mind. A hundred percent. I absolutely categoric. Well, I, they put me in a high maximum security prison which was fucking brutal and um when i arrived there's blood on the floor of the cell and the guy in the cell is there he's killed his previous cellmate and he's waiting to be shipped and they put me in the bed of oven so i'm and it's middle of the night i've just been on con air you know nicholas cage that film con air so i just been on con air yeah that is mental.

1:08:43And so I get into this, it's the middle of the night, they put me in this place. And I said, what are you doing? You put me in this, yeah, it'll be gone. It'll be gone. I'm shitting myself. And immediately I told myself, this is an amazing opportunity to test my mental strength, my resilience. I'm going to get an enormous amount out of this. My attitude changed immediately. I was embracing it. It's like, I'll have it, bring it on. And so I definitely, I mean, that's one of my big, if I have a mission in life, it is to help or at least to show people that it is possible to change the way that you think.

1:09:26And that's the biggest realization I had because I had beaten myself through the trial and through those initial months in prison, I'd really programmed myself to think I was an awful person. Awful father, awful husband, awful son, awful businessman, awful. I mean, everything's awful. You are the worst of the worst. So that was my programming. I had programmed myself to think that way. So over the course of the next however long, I then started this process which I've now built into a program, but which completely changed the way I think. And you can coach this? A hundred percent. Yeah. It's a basic, but it takes a lot of work.

1:10:11That's the problem. Always everything does. Yeah. There's nothing new in what I'm talking about. There's lots of books. I call it brain training and it's a bit, I don't know whether it's a bit dodgy to talk about because it might sound a bit cult-like, but it is basically what cults do actually. and it is actually what religions do what you see in prison a lot are born again Christians a lot I mean a lot and they are the happiest people in prison bar none they have no worries they are 100 % confident in themselves and they love where they are I'm definitely because I always try and reflect on me I'm definitely in a space I think at the moment where I have so much going on you know, businesses and podcasting and radio.

1:11:04Yeah, you must be like out of control. A little bit out of control, I would say. And then that can sometimes dip into moments where you don't really reflect on what you're doing. And I want to get to that place where I'm more excited. I am very excited about life. I'm massively, and I love life, but more be appreciative of life, I suppose. Yeah. And I don't want to get to a space where suddenly I look back when I'm, you know, 60, 70 and go, I was not even present. I wasn't thinking. And I think that comes with what you're saying. 100%. Yeah. And I think that's true of most people. One of the things I am doing, I am going to do, is try and help people plan their life more effectively, which sounds quite grand, but it's basically helping people determine what their compelling future looks like.

1:11:59And then putting a plan together to get to the compelling future and then to help them practice these sort of behaviors that will develop the habits that will allow you to achieve it and to recognize what they've already got. I mean, your classic example, you've started off lots of strands of activity. Some of them, they might not really be in line with what you should be doing or want to be doing or taking you to where you want to go. So you've got to sort of review, I find it amazing that in business, companies plan and visualize all the time, and then they measure all the time. And they're constantly tweaking and moving things and changing strategies.

1:12:42No one does that in their personal life. But it's the same principle. You've still got to have all the same things. And so that's basically what I've got this thing. I'm going to call it Mindfort, M-I-N-D-F-O-R-T. And I'm going to develop, I've got two programs I've developed. One is focused on that, which is the individual. And then the second one, which I think is also massively needed is driving the engagement of people in companies, because it's just not there. There's not enough focus on it in business. You have your first customer. I would love to be part of that. I'll do it for you. I would absolutely love to.

1:13:25This Mindfork program. I would love to be a part of it. Individually and for maybe business. All right. Let's do it. That's a deal. I'm loving that. Yeah, that's a deal. Are you saying I've done a deal? Yeah, you've done a deal. Well, it's been worth the meeting. Thanks very much. I promise you, I do. Thanks for your time.

1:13:45We have to annoyingly wrap up. I mean, honestly, I could go for hours and hours and hours with you. I feel like we sort of just touched the surface. so I think we're going to have to do a part two. I think we should. I mean, of course, I'm very happy. I must thank you for giving me this chance. Are you kidding me? I've never really talked about it like this. I really would like to do a part two. So I think for the audience who are listening right now, we haven't done this before, but let us know how much you enjoy it and whether you want to hear a part two because I think everyone's going to love it.

1:14:17You might bore them. You never know. No, you definitely have not because I think I'm the audience and I mean, I'm beyond gripped. we like to end the conversation with eight questions what's the saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up well i'm going to use one my mom sent me this morning in preparation for time with you which was keep calm and carry on i love that best compliment anyone's ever given you similar actually to what you said but about yourself but i love it when people say how much impact i've had on them they're they're like and genuinely i've had the most remarkable feedback about touch base because it really did produce some extraordinary people i mean that was our thing so yeah anything to do with that what scares you most about yourself we might have to do another podcast on that one i've got major issues uh i uh probably i'm i'm relentless if i want something i cannot not do it do it and that's that sounds like it it's like most of those things it's positive and negative isn't it but that is yeah when was the last time you cried funnily enough i have become i never cried my whole life i cried when i got arrested when i saw my oldest son i had a breakdown after coming back from uh the trial the court so i only say that because i it's not in my nature to cry at all ever and um so i did then and And but now I cry at the stupidest.

1:15:50I mean, I'm walking across that bridge from embankment to the other side. Yeah. And I turn around and I saw the Houses of Parliament and London. And then I'm back in London, you know, because it's quite emotional having been in clink. Wow. And I started crying. I mean, it's really weird. That's amazing. But the most was when they put me on the plane. I mean, I'm weeping like a small school boy. I mean, I literally, the people, they must have thought, what the fuck have we got here? Because they dropped me off in my handcuffs in the plane. And then I, as it took off, I started crying. On the plane back to the UK?

1:16:28Yeah, because that's pure freedom. That's not, if they'd kept me in America, if they hadn't deported me, I'd have to pay$5 million. And I would have to report into probation every week. Wow. This is true freedom now. What's something you can't let go of? My love of luxury. Which I really hoped I would be able to. I really hoped I could become like a student traveler. No way. What's your guilty pleasure? Probably the real housewives of Beverly Hills. It's my wife. she absolutely that's because Tara and I watched it we used to love it but it's really embarrassing I'm quite into it now I love it it's quite good yeah what turns you off mess I'm very tidy I'm quite tidy as well yeah what turns you on well all the normal stuff love women and probably architecture I really love architecture yeah I love that yeah I love that What do you like most about yourself?

1:17:42Probably my optimism. I really, and I like the fact that I kept it. Tara says that's why I was in prison. Because I cannot see that it's not going to work. I'm literally exactly the same, which can be dangerous sometimes. Be careful for that. Yeah, you need, well, basically, my advice would just be to get some strong partner who says, Don't do that. Let's not do that. And listen, I didn't listen. Bonus one. Someone listening to this right now, what one thing would you want them to take away from this conversation? That regardless of your situation, the way in which you interpret it will determine how much you get from it.

1:18:22This has been truly fascinating. Oh, good. I'm really pleased because I was shitting myself. Are you serious? Yeah, I know. Who knows how these things are going to turn out? This was amazing. I hope you're not just being nice. I swear. I swear to God. That was amazing. Thank you so, so much. Thank you. That has been amazing. I really am. Oh, good. Thank you very much. Thank you. That was amazing. Wasn't it? Yes.

1:18:49Oh, so good. So good. So, like, what a ride. Wow. So when I initially told you about him, what did you initially think? Be honest. I was just like, I was a bit eye-rolly. And then when you were like, no, trust me, and I couldn't find him online. and then you were like he's an ex-con I was like Jamie no no but then that story is just fascinating it's fascinating and what a charismatic man very charismatic very charismatic I think that's probably why he did well he was okay in prison and business and everything but he's also very open about his mistakes yes and how his failings yes and I think that's really important we really hope you enjoyed the episode let us know what you think of it in the comments you can send us an email greatcompanyatjampop productions.co.uk or you can slide in our DMs at Great Company Podcast.

1:19:38Everything is in the show description if you want to check it out. We've also put in the bio everything that Riordan spoke about so if you want to check out Mind Thought it's also in the bio. We love having you guys and thank you so much for listening again. Isn't that right, Jamoma? Indeed. And we're going to see you next week for another episode of Great Company.

1:20:11Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

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1:22:06On Thursdays we welcome you to the quick and dirty also known as the biggest sugary headlines of the week. Our episodes have been listened to over a hundred million times. Search for Shameless in your favorite podcast platform to see why.

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