PART 2 RIORDAN MAYNARD - REBUILDING LIFE AFTER PRISON & LOSING EVERYTHING

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2:16Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang, and this is Great Company.

2:27This is a very exciting day. Hello. Hello, Jemima. I thought you were going to start all right. All right, how are you doing? No, this is a very exciting day. Very exciting because... It's a first. It's a first. It's a first. So firstly, well, this isn't a first, this is a second, but firstly I want to say hello to all of you wonderful listeners. Welcome back to Great Company. If you're new to the show, I'm your host, Jamie, and this is... Producer Jemima. Correct. we had recently on one of our podcasts we had a man called Riordan Maynard yes spelt Riordan spelt Riordan but his name is Riordan now lots of you didn't know who Riordan was and for us I didn't really know who Riordan was Riordan and I met through a mutual friend he said that he wanted to come on my podcast or our podcast and I said okay well what's the story and my friend said, well, he's just got out of prison.

3:23He spent six and a half years in prison. And I said, what for? And he said, well, let him tell you that. So I got on a Zoom with this guy called Ried and I never met. And he was beyond charming and beyond charismatic and his story was fascinating. And so I said, great, let's do it. So we did an episode with Ried and Maynard. If you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to it. We're going to leave the link to the first episode in the description. And it was amazing about Ried and he went to prison for tax evasion in the States, in America, running his business. And what he went through was just truly unique.

3:59It was one of those episodes where we had to say, normally a lot of the guests people know, but it was one of those ones where we were like, trust us, you're going to enjoy. And the response was absolutely wild. It was amazing. We spoke about prison, we spoke about family, so many things. And actually, because we spent so long talking, we didn't really have time to complete everything. So we decided to do a part two, which is happening today. It is happening today. So trust us once again. This is going to be an incredible episode. And we heard you and we heard everyone wanted a part two. So here's your part two.

4:31So we went through the inbox and we found a load of questions that people really wanted to know. What did you want to know? I wanted to know just more about the ins and outs of the fact he was in a gang. That absolutely fascinated me. I want to know about that. I want to know about family. I want to know about mental resilience was a big thing. And so today's episode is all of that. All the things that weren't answered in episode one are in episode two today. So get ready for this one. Now, if you haven't subscribed to our show, I cannot tell you how much it does for us. It does us absolute wonders.

5:02So if you can subscribe, that'd be amazing. If you'd like to get in touch, please do let us know what guest you want next. Anything at all. Get in touch with us on Instagram at greatcompanypodcast, or you can send us an email, greatcompany at jamperproductions.co.uk. Are you ready for this? Oh, we're all ready. We're chomping at the bit for part two of Reardon. Please enjoy this episode of Great Company with Reardon Maynard again. Hi, I'm Reardon Maynard and I'm back.

5:33In my third prison, I'd been there like two or three months and there's nothing to do in prison, basically. You can read, think, eat, exercise. That's about it. And sleep. And so it's bloody boring. Anyway, I'm in this prison for six, eight weeks and people in my group, my gang are helping me out, telling me what's going on. And I stumble across this room, which is like heaven. It's a music room. What do you mean you stumble across it? I'm walking around the yard and there's this door and I open the door and there's this glorious music room with a piano, drums, guitars. I think, why the hell hasn't anyone told me about this music room?

6:22I mean, maybe they don't know that I like music, but you would think that someone would say, oh, we've got a gym. And by the way, we've got this fucking amazing music room. You know, this is like you're living in a place which is so, it's barren. There's nothing. And then there's this glorious music room. So I go in the music room, fiddle about on the piano and stuff, think nothing of it. I went back to the unit and I said, I found a music room. Why hasn't anyone told me about the music room? And they all looked at each other and they said, you don't want to go in the music room. I said, why don't I want to go in the music room?

7:02They said, we call it the bang bang room. basically everyone goes there to shag and so i it's it's it's basically the equivalent of going to a dogging site in the uk and you know you're basically asking for it and you went in there i'm in there merrily playing the apparently everyone's in there and looking very keen i thought they liked my piano

7:37Did you ever form any close relationships when you were in prison? Yes. Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's some lovely people in prison. Really? Yeah. I mean, and I think I said this last time, it's basically like normal life. You get lovely people and then you get awful people and people in the middle. But yeah, I definitely, I really... Who did you like the most? What sort of groups of people did you like the most? Were there any ones? There's no question the Italians were the absolute joy. They were... Are they the mafia, would you say? Or no? They would never say that. And I would definitely never say that.

8:22I don't know. Truthfully, I don't know. Because you don't really ask people questions about their day jobs when you're in prison. Do you not? Never. Do you ask them what they're in for? You're not meant to. The only thing they ask you about is, and this is every prison you go, when you get there, that you have to prove that you're not a paedophile or a snitch. How do you prove that? You have to get your papers from your lawyers on the transcript of your sentencing hearing. Because in your sentencing hearing, the judge will always say whether you cooperated with the government or if you stiff someone in.

9:11For instance, they were always trying to get me to blame my CFO for my situation. My lawyers were always saying, you know, stiff them and you'll get a better sentence. Yeah. That's what they do. You know, that's their thing. Yeah. You always, they always want you to blame someone else rather than take the blame. I mean, I made the fucking decisions. It's my fault. So, and also how can you, how can you learn and develop if you don't take responsibility? True, but it's very easy in that situation when your back is against the wall. You're very tempted. I can imagine. So they do push you quite hard to snitch and blame others.

9:52Anyway, so when you get to the prison, that's what they're interested in. And so you have to show them your transcript, and the transcript says, he cooperated, or this is the crimes that he's committed. And then as long as you're not one of them, you basically don't talk about why people are in. It's your business. And no one really judges you based on it either. Who are you showing your papers to to everyone? No, to your gang, the leader of your group. Yeah, they're vetting you basically because they're letting you into their group. It's like saying, give me a CV. I want to see where you've been and what you've done.

10:34And so some people, when they get there, they lie. I mean, this is coming. The transcript's coming. So you're better off just getting it out at the front end if you're one of them. But some don't. They make out that they're not. And then their transcripts don't turn up. Anyway, they get seriously beaten because they're part of the group. And then And if they transpire to be a snitch, then they get a serious beat. Is that the sort of repercussions that's always beaten? They also have a... You can be cast out. They have a... I can't remember what they called it. A lot of the organization you can see in the dining hall because everyone sits together.

11:20You have the whites and then you have different race groups. and you're not allowed to sit outside of your group. And there is a group that is not a group, which is basically a bunch of gas-offs who have upset someone or done something wrong or haven't conformed. There's something that they've done that means that they've been sent into the wilderness and then they get no protection either. So they're like,

11:57they're like a sitting duck yeah basically yeah it's like yeah so um that is freaking fascinating yeah just how do you become the leader of a group we i think i actually don't know how that happens i didn't see any of that but there's obviously like any um any natural hierarchy yeah there's a system, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's very, yeah, the structure. I think it's based on, it will be, it is based on strength, respect, fear, those normal sorts of things for a natural hierarchy to occur. Why did you like the Italians so much?

12:47well they are incredibly good fun i mean they have a great time they're basically i mean i think and this is just my conjecture i was because basically i'm in i'm in the whites and a subsection of the whites are the italians okay because um they are their own group but because obviously there's not that many of them although they do have a lot of power in the prisons um They ally with the whites, so you're a bigger group in the scheme of things.

13:26They're slightly separate. They have their own table and stuff at the dining hall. I always saw them when I'd come down for breakfast. They're always having a great time. They're like a family. And I know, you know, you see all the, they are basically, you know, it is a family sort of thing, isn't it? Yeah. And, but it's just like you see in the films. I mean, they are just like, if you see them mucking about in Goodfellas, I mean, I hope they don't come and hunt me down now. If you're listening. Actually, I know they're listening. Because they wrote to me. I forgot to tell you. They wrote to me after the last podcast.

14:04Are you serious? Yeah. Um, oh, I'm glad I remembered that. Are you serious? After one of the things I got from, uh, email on, on email was the heading, the title was, or you're fucking wanker. What's up? Cause they love the word wanker in America. It absolutely, it's their, I mean, it must be because of Guy Ritchie. because you know in all his movies jason statum is always a wanker yeah and it anyway so they love that so it said oh you fucking wanker what's up and then there's this lovely email from from one of the guys um heard the podcast why haven't you mentioned us we took you in like a small boy we looked after you so anyway now i am wherever you are this is your mention leave me alone no uh so i totally forgot i don't but anyway they they are i would say they are wonderful people i don't know what they do in the day and i can't judge anything about that but as people in that environment they were spectacular to me.

15:29You know, they took me in totally. I mean, I'm sitting with them every day. They taught me how to lift weights. You know, I'd never done weights before I went to prison. And, you know, they showed me, you know, I was part of their weights group. Do you make friends with people or is it complicated to make friends with people because of the environment that you're in? Some people do make very good friends. I wasn't keen to make friends, really. So you kept yourself... To be honest, as a human, I'm not very good at friends. I mean, I'm not great. I would disagree. Oh, thanks very much. I think you're good at being friends.

16:10That must be the new version of me. The previous version. That's probably the wrong way to say what I'm trying to say, which is that I was like you. I didn't pay enough attention to friendship and relationships. I was too busy, too self-important, didn't need it. But from a prison perspective, it's a difficult balance because I met lovely people in there who were very supportive of me and helped me a lot. But also, I don't really want that to be my life. It isn't my life. I mean, it's a moment in my life which has happened. And I got huge benefit from it and lots of challenges from it. But I don't want to be defined by it.

17:00No, and I don't think you are. Yeah. And that's good because I don't have any issue talking about it at all. And I find it amusing as well. I mean, it's almost like I didn't do it. It's like someone else is doing it. um but but i don't want that to be my my thing necessarily yeah i don't know you know i totally i completely i completely hear what you're saying but it must be quite tricky you know and i i i want to talk about other things well but i'm just going to focus on this for a second it's must be quite tricky as well right because I don't know talking about what happened inside must be quite hard because there are people involved so you can't really say things and all that those kind of things but also I remember we had a conversation and you said that I mean I would have individuals have no idea how much of like goes on in the underworld how much business is happening in the world of crime Yeah.

18:05And you said it's probably the same amount as what's happening above board. I think it might be. I mean, I don't, that's a completely uneducated statement. Someone would know what the, what the criminal world equates to in the context of the normal economy, but the money is just eye watering. When you're in prison, because basically it's, you know, when you go to school or university, you're, you're making connections. was there any other points i don't know how much you can say was there any other points that you were offered deals or business things or any opportunities that people said oh we can make this happen or that happen or make this do this all the time really yeah i mean firstly people would ask me for my advice because obviously i've come from a business background yeah so there was lots of people who wanted who genuinely wanted advice about you know because one of the great challenges for convicts is getting a job.

19:02Not whether they're capable or not, or whether they want to change and become law-abiding, but the actual process of getting a job is virtually impossible because you have a criminal record. And especially in America, they do everything possible to really fuck you for life. I mean, properly. In what ways? Well, you have a criminal record. What they put on the internet is bordering on slander, the way that they publicize their court wins. And then the general, I suppose, PR that surrounds people who've been in prison means that it's virtually impossible to get a job. So everyone wants to start their own business if you're in prison.

19:45I mean, everyone wants to start their own business. Because they know when they leave, they've got two options, start your own business or go back to what you were doing that got you in there. Wow. So a lot of people asked for advice. I was obviously very happy to help wherever I could with people with their planning and what they wanted to try and achieve. And I did a lot of this mindful stuff in prison with prisoners, and it proved to be very successful. And so that's that. But on the other side, you get all sorts of offers. I was offered to become the European cocaine king, which on the Facebook sounds quite interesting.

20:30But I just don't want to go back in. I've got nothing against cocaine, but I just don't want to go back in. I'm not going back. So, uh, that, I mean, I'm, I must've met, I reckon I met, I don't know what the cocaine business is worth, but I met some serious cocaine people for Canada and from, uh, Columbia and, uh, Mexico. Are you serious? Oh yeah. Yeah. And, um, so I offered that. And then what do they expect? You don't have to say who it is, but what do they offer? What do they say? Um, They want roots into the market, basically, I guess. I mean, what's interesting about crime is it's like any business.

21:16You know, these people, I said to a lot of them, why don't you just switch off the criminal element, apply your skills, because they're bloody good business people. You know, they're seriously impressive. They understand distribution, pricing, competition. You know, they know how to deal with competition, big time. They've got marketing. I mean, they are the sales, they get procurement, they get all the bits. They're recruiting. They get recruiting. Yeah. And so I often said to them, in all seriousness, not that criminal element on the head, apply everything you know to this bit and you'll be off.

21:59But yeah, so they offered me the ability to buy their product basically and distribute it. Just for the record, I'm not interested. I am. I've learned my lesson. From that perspective, the justice system does work. I'm definitely not going back. Then there's just tons of money. One person offered me$100 million to invest in businesses because they just have so much cash. I mean so much cash I mean they've got to clean the, I mean I don't know, this is me speculating, I don't know how it all works, I didn't ask any questions about their world that wasn't, that's it's not my world but but yeah I got tons of offers

22:58one of our listeners we had so many messages anna has written in to ask she said what has it been like returning to non-prison life and the uk did you have to start from zero well it's been spectacular amazing just being out of prison obviously um i am starting from zero in terms of my own situation. Well, that's not quite fair because obviously I've got my family, but where I've been incredibly fortunate is one of my friends, the day I got out, said, come and help me with my businesses. And that's been just a remarkable gift because the process of arrest, trial, well, the process of business failure to start with, without all the criminal stuff, is quite gutting for someone like me.

23:59Because I've got an ego, I've got fear of failure. I've got all the stuff you... Everyone has. Yeah, the checklist for everyone who started a business. And so failing is horrible. If you fail very publicly, very obviously, then it's pretty crushing. And so that in its own right affects your confidence, you start to think you're pretty shit.

24:30Then you add onto it the arrest, which is slightly traumatic. Then you add onto it the trial, which is like a tsunami of hate against you. That's the worst bit. Then you add on the prison. Anyway, my confidence completely wiped out. So my friend giving me this opportunity to help him, that's really good for my self-confidence. I'm answering the question about whether I started from zero. I did in theory, but I'm a very lucky guy. I've got lovely people who have supported me. I mean, amazing whilst I was away, so many people supported me. Just making an effort. It's not easy writing to people in prison.

25:19First, you have to get paper, no one's liking that anymore, and a pen, and a stamp. And they don't make it easy for you to get it to me. And lots of people have made an effort, but specifically being back now, I have lots of opportunities. I'm very busy and I'm doing lots of work now with individuals on the Mindfort thing and with companies as well. Did any of your friends cut you off completely? No, I don't think anyone has. Shows kind of what a person you are then, I would say. I really hope so. I mean, I think everyone is of the opinion that I'm an idiot, including myself. They are also of the opinion that the judge is completely mental.

26:20The sentence is lunacy. I think most people just… they're not accepting of what happened so much as they think, okay, that's a bit of a hard hit you've taken, and you've dealt with it well and now you've got to get on and i think that's how it should be you know really you should have a second chance if you've fucked up you believe in second chances i think you have to don't you i always have i mean in touch base we used to employ people who'd fucked up this is your business yeah um and we we employed one chap who'd been to prison um wow yeah i mean i i've because i do think you've got to otherwise how does it work how does this sort of principle of forgiveness.

27:15How can you learn? Because I don't think you can actually progress without the failure. I don't think you can either. I think you've got to experience it and then move on from it, which is why I think it's been very good for me. Another listener, Greeney, asks about your emotions that you've experienced outside a prison? Did transitioning back to life outside also bring anxiety? Because I imagine there must be some PTSD with it, right? Yeah, I think there is. What do you mean you think? I've got this weird thing where it's almost as if it didn't happen. And I wonder if that's how you cope with it.

28:01Really? Yeah, I mean, I definitely get PTSD, no question. When I hear a bell, that's like, movement. No, seriously, that's true. We better get moving. We've only got 10 minutes. I told you last time I'm much more emotional. I mean, I'll be walking along, I was walking along Bond Street. And suddenly, I start thinking about Tara and the children. I start welling up. I mean, it's so alien to me because I'm so excited about them coming. What is it you think about them when that makes you well up? Being together as a family. And to your earlier point, that must be based on the fact that I now know what it's like not to be.

28:56Because we were always together before, and I never took it, I never appreciated it. But then when you can't have it, you appreciate it. So in some ways, it's some sort of gift to know what it's not like to have. Oh, that's one of the biggest benefits of prison, is appreciation. In fact, one of the things I think people, we, should do as an absolute discipline daily is work out what's brilliant about our life and recognize it. People talk about gratitude. I do think that's quite magical, gratitude. I do it all the time, every morning, every night. Yeah. Because we spend a lot of our life worrying about what's shit about it.

29:45And of course, you do need to recognize the bits you want to change and things that are not quite going where you want them to go, which is why you need this to define where you're going and how you're going to get there. But also, there's almost always good bits that we can zero in on and enjoy. And just that very act of recognizing them and appreciating them makes you feel better. You were in prison for six and a half years. Yeah. What changed from the moment that you went in to when you came out?

30:23there's an amazing moment and i go back to shawshank redemption which i love i watched the other day although talking of ptsd i'm struggling to watch any prison related content currently um but in shawshank uh spoiler alert if you haven't seen it but there's a moment when one of the old prisoners gets released he's been there for most of his life and he says where he when I came out when I was a boy, before I went in, I saw one motor car. Now I came out and they're everywhere. And you kind of forget that, that you go into a place where the world is this. And then when you come out, the world is different.

31:04So what was different? Well, I think mine wasn't as accentuated as that. There are people in there who are in there for 30 odd years. You can't imagine. Well, they're just, they can't even get back to life, I don't think. But in my case, the biggest thing I noticed, and bear in mind, I was in the mobile business, in the communications business. So I'm into phones and I'm into technology and stuff. But the biggest thing I noticed was how the human race has basically been taken over by the screen. That was the biggest change. because obviously before I went in there, I wasn't in 20 years. I mean, we had iPhones and we had iPads and people were using their phones, but nothing like when I got released from my last prison before they then put me in another one, which I wasn't expecting.

32:04I was allowed to travel from Pennsylvania to Denver on the train on my own. And so they literally let me go. How weird. Bizarre. To move across country. It's called self-surrender or something. So for just 20 hours, I was free, completely free. It was amazing. Was that amazing? Yeah, that was amazing. It was odd. But the thing I noticed the most was people on their phones and adults, not children, but with this motion.

32:42just scrolling through the hours sitting on the train like that and and i mean it's no i mean there's no news to anyone because we all know it's it's happened but that was a big one and then the other thing was um the cost of everything because i started business well i started working in about 87. Started my own business in about 92 or touch base in 92. We had that little mobile phone place before that. In 92, there was a big recession, proper recession. But since then, we haven't really had inflation. We've had financial crashes, but not inflation. And that was one of the biggest things I noticed was the cost of everything.

33:31I went to get a Starbucks. I love coffee. One of the things I dreamed about in prison was having a coffee because they have the worst coffee you can possibly imagine. I love coffee. I dreamt for five odd years about having a coffee. I went to Starbucks. When you leave for your trip, they give you$20 to fund bits and bobs. I went to Starbucks, ordered my regular, which is strong. Was that a weird moment? Yeah. Oh yeah, the whole thing was freakish. And I looked like a tramp. I mean, I looked proper hobo because I'm wearing like these, when you leave prison, they give you these jeans, but they're not jeans.

34:15They're like, they're like, um, tracksuit bottoms that look like jeans. Anyway, you look awful. You've got this terrible t-shirt on. I looked like a tramp. I had a string bag with all my possessions in. And my hair is just down to like a one, razor cut like a skinhead. But anyway, I ordered the coffee. It was$10 for the coffee. $10. Half your money. Yeah. And then consequently, I noticed how expensive everything had become. Then the other thing on the flip side of that, I've noticed is how much money there is around. Now, I know that's a silly thing to say because there's a lot of poverty, but at the top end, so much.

35:02Yeah. And I was brought up in the eighties. My, my working life started in the eighties with, you know, greed is good. Gordon Gekko, Wall Street, you know, that was my, I loved it. You know, I loved that. That's why I got into business. And, um, and they, they, at that time, they said it was the time of excess, but this is nothing like this. I mean, this is extraordinary. We've had an email from a prison officer from Felton Prison. They said, has Reardon written a book about his experience? I'd love to share it with the prisoners I work with. Have you written a book? If not, would you? I have basically written a book, yeah.

35:42But it's not been published? No, it's in my handwriting. I wrote it when I was in prison. I wrote three books, one which was based around this program this mindful program second one is called it's not it's a bit of a popular title currently but 50 rules but it's basically 50 rules that i i want to live by um which ties in with all the beliefs stuff and then the third one is is like a business system to, to, you should get these published. I mean, it's amazing that an officer is a bit cliche. It's not cliche. I don't think man goes to prison man writes book. I don't think it is. Especially if it's helping.

36:26I might do. I'd really, I mean, my big thing, I'm going to plug myself now. Do it. Yeah. Is, is this mind thought, which I've been doing as an incredible. Yeah. I'm, I'm absolutely passionate about it. I'm going to put the link in the show description so people can click it. I think it's amazing.

37:13Up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up. WPWORK.com. Post a job for free and get started today. Hi, this is Knox from the Popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you.

37:49Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key. And that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust. From paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers. Plus, you can rely on Grainger for easy reordering, so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

38:30Describe to me quickly what a normal day in prison is like. Because I want to understand your mindset now. Well, you get up. I'll talk for myself. It's pretty similar for everyone, but I would wake up at 4.30 and do some sort of yoga-ish type movements, mobility stuff. And then they call you for breakfast at about 5. Anytime food is involved, I always felt like I was at a farm, because it is just like watching animals. I'm one of them. I'm not calling everyone else. We are basically animals, because the gates closed, the doors closed to the unit, until they open it and let you go to eat. And everyone's lining up, pushing.

39:29The food's going to be there. It's not going anywhere. Anyway, so they open. You go and have your... Do people run? Yeah, people are running. They're trying to get to... Which sort of makes sense because then you don't have to line up. But they are running down the corridor trying to get to the food. And it's not very good food, let me tell you. Really bad, the food. actually it was quite good in one prison one was inedible one in inedible no listen to me one we went we had to go on hunger strike three times because one of the guys in the kitchen found the meat packaging and it said not for human consumption on it and i'm not fucking lying that is true not for this is a private prison for profit not for human consumption anyway that was i was in that prison and it's mental isn't it i'm in that prison can't eat the food the food is absolutely offensive i ate packets of fish this i'm not lying packets of fish peanuts and milky ways for nearly two years.

40:46That's all I ate. I was like Christian Bale in The Machinist. So you have your food, and then what happens after that? I would always go to exercise after that. And you have how long to exercise? Well, the way that the day is structured usually is you have these things called movements. So every hour, you can move for 10 minutes. Does that make sense? So you get the bell and then you can move her anywhere you like, but only for 10 minutes. And then you're in the place you're in. So let's say you go to the gym. You have to stay there until the next movement. What? Yeah. It's like some sort of game.

41:30I've never thought of it like that, but yeah. It is. It's like, and then you're in that position for how long? In that place for how long? Up until the next movement, which is an hour, basically. So you have 10 minutes to get to the place that you want to. That's it. So if you're in the bathrooms, you're stuck in the bathrooms, no? Well, you have the bathrooms in the units. In the units, you're fine. So you have these movements and then they count you all the time. So then every about six times a day, you have to go back to your unit at a specific time. And then they count you. You have to stand by your bunk.

42:06In case anyone's escaped. Yeah, they're paranoid about people escaping. But no one escapes. I don't. Well, you do see the odd one, don't you, on the news? It's quite unusual. I mean, certainly I didn't see any evidence of people even trying to escape work. Although I would say it probably happens more with people who've got much longer sentences. Because if you've got a short sentence, you wouldn't do it because you get automatically 10 years. And so then you're stuck in that place, then you wait for the next bell, then it's lunch. And then anything else happens in the day, you don't, nothing else.

42:39Nothing else. The boredom. It's so boring. The repetition. Yeah. That is, that's what it is. It's a repeating, it's the same day every day. Because that brings me on to, you know, the last time we spoke, you told me how hard the first few months were. Yeah. You said you were depressed.

43:04you didn't know how you were going to continue on and it was a pretty low moment but then you changed your mindset and that's pretty amazing and having spent time with you and for a lot of the listeners you may not know but Ril and I you've been coaching me the last few weeks and lucky you very lucky me you haven't charged me yet I see anything. I'm still conscious of that. You said just a crew. So I'll just send you a big bill. But the reason why I did that after our conversation, and we hadn't met before our conversation, that was the first time we had met in person. And then after having our conversation, I think your mindset is pretty spectacular.

43:50Where you have shifted your way of thinking. and you've taught me in certain ways how to do that as well and I've realized now in my life I've been doing that so my question to you is how did you shift your mindset from being that depressed anxious self in prison with no hope to then thinking right I need to change this uh that the decision to change it basically came from a a binary it's a binary situation of am I gonna top myself or am I gonna get my shit together those were two options yeah basically so the two options were you're gonna take your own life or you're gonna change your mind yeah sort myself out and so they often say don't they they often say you've got to get to the bottom before you can get back out yeah and so I think I also said last time when we spoke, it was very unusual for me to feel like that.

44:52In my life, I hadn't felt like that before because I'd always had a lot of control over things and where I was going and what I was doing and I was very optimistic and motivated. And so for the first time, I'd completely lost sight of any version of a compelling future, of a reason for being. That was what I discovered, is that having decided, right, I better get my act together because I've got five lovely children, I've got an amazing wife, I'm going to come out of here in five years or six years' time, what do I want to be when I come out? That really started to motivate me because I then started to think, well, actually, this could be a gift because I've got all this time to achieve things, whatever those things are.

45:50So then I thought, okay, what do I want my life to look like? And that started me thinking about my future in a positive way, not a negative way, but started to think, okay, well actually, if I take what I've done so far, work out the bits I like, and work out what I want to be, then turn that into some sort of view of a future. I call it a compelling future. I must have taken that from somewhere. Nothing I say has come from me. It's all just - Yeah, but anything we say from anything comes from somewhere, a compelling future. And then I define that. I sort of know what I want to be, where I'm going.

46:34And as soon as I'd done that, things started to change. Everything I think about starts to, the thinking is in the context of that. So break that down for me quickly, because I think a lot of us and a lot of people listening, we don't really know what we want our lives to be like. Agreed. So then how do we define our life if we don't really know what we want? Well, I think that's the basis of a lot of the trouble in modern life. We don't know. And And there's no certainty in us because we don't know. We're sort of just stumbling through life, being told what we should like, being told what to do by all these influences that we have on us, either technical or human.

47:28There's no sort of defining version of your future. and that means you've got nothing to anchor your thinking on or your emotions or the way you process stuff or your beliefs or because we're just floating yeah because you're not you have you're not you have no direction you you you existing but you don't have a a north star i call it like a North Star that pulls you that you think, okay, well, one of mine is I want to be an amazing father and an amazing husband. Because I know historically, in my view, I haven't been. So if you said, okay, what does your future look like? My future looks like me being my version of an amazing father.

48:18And I've got that all. I know what that means to me. What does that mean to you? well being present which is tricky because they live in america so at this stage not doing so well on that one um but being present yeah being obviously supportive loving um non-judgmental which is a big problem for me why because you are judgmental i'm very judgmental yeah generally are you yeah in what way i just have very strong opinions about things and and they're not necessarily right yeah well as as most most you know with most people they're not necessarily right but they are strong they are so um so i'm trying i try i'm really trying to, you know, like Monty, my oldest, he's amazing.

49:13And he's a very spiritual chap. And he looks like Robert Plant out of Led Zeppelin. He's very attractive. And he's got long hair. He's got this beard, you know, like Guy Fawkes. and um i know what you mean yeah yeah yeah and he he looks amazing but to me i'm like get your fucking haircuts sort the beard out get a job you know i'm just like and he's like what does he say to me anyway he's like he's got the most wonderful sayings he's very laid back and take it easy man and you don't have to be judgmental so you're stripping out any judgment towards I've got to stop. Why? Well, who am I to tell him that he needs his fucking haircut?

50:02I mean, he looks great. So anyway, sorry, Monty. I don't, I mean, I don't want to single you out. No, but that's, but that's amazing. I get what you mean. So what you asked me the question about being a father, that's, those are the types of things I'm really working on because let me be clear. I am not fixed. There's lots. I mean, we are all work in progress, aren't we? But I'm on the right path because I know... So you think that once you have that North Star, once you know your compelling future, then you can understand what you want to achieve in life. And then when you know where you want to get to in life, you can block all the other noise out.

50:42Yeah, basically. Once you've got that view of your future, I think you then need to of distill that down into the things you should really be focused on. I call them obsessions, things that you should really be obsessed with. So in my world, it would be my children. They should be an obsession for me. Not in a negative way, because some people think the word obsession is a bit too strong. And another area I'm absolutely passionate about is my health and fitness because I couldn't care a toss about it. Because I've been very lucky, I'm quite a fit guy anyway. Fortunately, I haven't had any issues and health issues.

51:30And so I've taken that for granted. But what I did realize when I got to prison was if I don't make some conscious effort to sort my health out and my fitness, I'm going to come out decrepit. My youngest is 10. I'm not going to be able to run around the fields with him. I might not even be able to get up the stairs. You see some of these people in prison, they're finished. Are you serious? Yeah. Because all you do all day is lie on your bed. That's it. That's your day. Imagine lying on your bed all day. That's it. There's nothing else to do. Nothing else. Yeah. So you're either, as I said earlier, exercising, obviously you're not lying on your bed then, um, or you're, you're thinking, reading that's lying on the bed.

52:16Um, you're eating, that doesn't take long, uh, or you're sleeping and you're on the bed. So you're in this, you're horizontal like this, all your body wears away. And when I came out, I had no, all my muscles are gone. Yeah. I mean, I'd worked them quite hard in prison, but you're, you don't have that sort of natural movement that we get in our day. Because there's not enough. You're not moving. You're not moving enough. You probably don't do 500 steps a day. You know, when you're feeling depressed or anxious or in that sort of dark hole, it's very hard to see the light. It's very hard to get it, especially if you've never experienced it before, which you hadn't.

52:54So I'm interested in how do you change that? How do you change the chapter? How do you force yourself to go, that is not my thinking here? I want to think this. Well, perhaps you need someone to help you get there. I don't know. In my case, as soon as I had defined this future, my vision of my future, everything changed. Wow. Because you knew where you wanted to go. You knew everything that you wanted to have. Yeah. And I could put my current situation in the context of that. And so then I started to have some certainty and certainty is really what we all need, even if it's fake, because there is no such thing as certainty.

53:40Is there? Because we don't know what's going to happen this afternoon. We've got no idea. But if we have a view of where we're trying to get to and a view of what we need to get there, and we know what behaviors are required to implement that plan that's going to get you there, and we're doing the stuff necessary, we feel in control. And that gives us certainty. And that makes you feel like a billion. I feel like a billion dollars all the time. I can't explain why. Yeah, because my life's not brilliant. I'm penniless. I got my family in Denver and I'm getting back on my feet, but I still feel remarkable every day.

54:25I mean, literally like someone's pumped me full of cocaine every day. Do you know what's interesting is that you, um, in business, right? When, when you're running a business, the most important thing is to have a vision, to have a North star, to know where you're going. And we do that. Every successful business knows what they're doing. If you look at the Googles or the Facebooks or the apples of the world, they know exactly what they're doing. they know exactly their vision, they know exactly their mission statement. Yeah. In life, we don't do that for ourselves. Right. And what you're telling me here is that that's what we need to do.

55:02We need to have a mission statement. We need to have a compelling future. We need to know where we're going. And then that will bring us the sort of happiness and contentness and understanding of where we're going in life. Yeah. As long as you change your behavior, because the principle, all the stuff I've talked about is quite well known that if you have this view of where you're going, if you have a good plan, if you have specific goals, it's well known that that helps you achieve. What the theories miss, I think, is how do you turn that into reality? Because you've got to change change your behaviors.

55:46You've got to change the way that you think in order to become the person that can achieve the plan and reach this future that you've defined. And so, for instance, if you've, and this doesn't just apply, I mean, people think this just applies if you want to make more money or you want to be successful as we define success. um it isn't that it's to do with anyone's life it's to do with working out what i call it you've got to learn to love the life you live and that means that whatever you believe is important in your life you've got to learn to love it and that and and that means defining what it is and creating the behaviors and the way of thinking about it that allows you to achieve what you want to achieve within it and love it.

56:38Whether that's your wife, I mean, or your partner, your husband, whatever it might be, or whether it's your children or whether it's your work or whatever it might be, you've got to learn to love it or get rid of it and do something else. Because what's the point otherwise? I mean, I just don't understand why would you, we're not here very long and why would you spend one minute in that abyss that i was in when you don't need to you just don't need to be in it there's there's some steps you can take to fix it

57:14you are the first guest ever we've had on twice is that true we've never had anyone on twice oh well that makes me feel quite good thank you very much i must actually thank you for putting me on the first time i mean it was very brave of you i think because it's quite a contentious subject well why why do you think it is well because i really fucked up didn't i and you know some of my decisions were not great and so for you to give me the opportunity to come and sort of tell my side of the story is, is, it's very, it's much appreciated. There were two parts to our conversation that we had. One, which was about prison.

57:57Yeah. Well, there were three parts, prison, mental resilience, and family. Yeah. When we were talking about prison and mental resilience, you were very measured. And when it came to family, that's when you probably were a bit wobbly. Understandably. Yeah. yeah we had a email in from your son gussy oh my god don't do that yeah i don't need that no no i do need it gussy but i'm not saying i don't need your email oh shit what's he said uh gussy you're hijacking me or whatever the word is how old is gussy 18 okay so gussy said I'm Gussie Maynard Raiden's son I would like the next time you're with him or next time he does the podcast tell him you're a little wuss boy that is Gussie but tell him it's anonymous can't let his ego get too high now he's on a podcast thank you that is Gussie that's lovely he's pretty direct because I think the one thing And I want to get into lots, lots of different things, more about mental resilience, more about your time out of prison and a bit more about prison.

59:16But the one thing is, is the whole experience was like for your family and what it was like when all of that happened. Because from what you've told me, you don't have any contact with them when you're inside. No. You do, but it's not, there's not a huge amount. No. You're highly restricted. They issue you with a number of minutes per month. Which are how many? 300.

59:47Actually, it's 150 minutes a month, but because of COVID, they doubled it. Because I was in during COVID, and so for two and a half years or however long that went on for,

1:00:02there was no visitation. Not that it was easy anyway, because I was miles away from the family, but there was no visitation. So I had 300 minutes. And so I could basically speak to Tara once a day for a few minutes, and then the children once a week. And that was it. And yeah, but you have no,

1:00:26they can't contact you, and so you can only contact them. And so you can never be there if they need you, ever. Because unless there's a catastrophic event, in which case they can contact the prison, the prison can come and get you, so there's no contact at all. It's horrific on the family. I think I said last time, I think the real punishment in this scenario is not on me, it's on the family. Because I get completely looked after by the state. Everything I need is given to me, but they're left completely destitute with no support system, nothing. It's especially accentuated if you live in a foreign country, because you don't even have your extended family around your family to support them.

1:01:21And so it's, you sort of double whammy.

1:01:27Because how does your relationship during that period change with your family, would you say, for most people who go to prison, would you think? I think it decimates the relationship for most people. I don't think it did in my case, only because of Tara, because she didn't vilify me. And which is, you would sort of, you couldn't blame her if you did.

1:01:55And that meant that she kept the children engaged with me all the time. And so we managed through it, but it's an odd, it's very odd because you become a distant, almost you become a virtual part of their life not a real you're not you're in you're not in it in any way physically and so it's an odd it's quite odd you become like a pen pal type it's it's an odd relationship and it probably makes you realize how important family is oh yeah you realize that it's everything basically yeah because when that's stripped from you right and you're just taken when you're left with yourself and as you said you only have the things you have your mind the gym all you think about is your family yeah that's totally true.

1:02:42Yeah. And well, that's true of, of everything. You start to appreciate everything. What has been your relationship like with your family since getting out? Oh, spectacular. I think, I mean, in and progressing. So you start, it's a bit odd when you, when you get, when you get out and you, you interact, it's a bit odd. You know, I've been away. Describe it to me. Well, it's like, being a stranger with someone you know really well. It's a really odd dynamic.

1:03:22There's a lot of

1:03:27unspoken angst because the events, they're so um, torturous mentally that there's all lots of built up angst everywhere. And so you have to sort of go through, you're almost going through the motions initially, and then you've got to see how it develops. And in, in this case for me, it's been just remarkable. My relationship with Tara is amazing now. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is amazing. Yeah. But that's again, thanks to her because she could quite easily think, what a fucking ass. I'm not going to spend one more minute with this chap. And so she's been, yes, mainly thanks to her, but it's remarkable.

1:04:16And with the children, really fantastic.

1:04:22Do they ask questions? yeah they do but it's interesting with children there's an age where they do and then there's an age where they stop i've noticed really yeah i would ask questions all the time i do when i'm with you i ask questions all the time yeah i know you do yeah yeah it's that's why you're rather good at your job um yeah they're always asking questions and but now it's sort of back it's relatively normal i mean i would think if you know because of course we're we're separate they're in America and I'm here but they are coming next week for a few weeks which will be amazing I've got one more question for you broadcasting is a great time to speak your mind and say what you want and for people to hear it and people to listen do you think there's anything that you would like to say to your family that you've never said

1:05:21Well, not that I'd never said, but I would like to say how much I love them, because I'm not very good at saying that. I find that quite hard to say for some reason. I don't really know why.

1:05:36Obviously, I miss them very much, but I'm very excited about them coming. I'm very proud of them. and yeah I see what you're trying to do you're amazing you're incredible thank you so much for these two episodes it's been fantastic and I'm just very excited to see where all of this takes you me too I'm going to be enjoying the journey with you I think it's great I think what you've done made mistakes and done your time and come out and trying to do things better for people and life and everything, I think it's pretty special. So thank you so much for coming on again and giving me your time. This has been amazing.

1:06:19Thanks, Jamie.

1:06:23Amazing! Was it all right? It was amazing!

1:06:30There you go. What a great one. That was great. I feel like episode one was very kind of overview of everything. and this was just the deep dives of all the spaces that we wanted to go. And he's just, he's so scary. He's never done a podcast. That's what's so funny. He has never done a podcast apart from with me and he feels like he's a seasoned pro. I know. And everyone was so excited to have Riordan back in the studio today. Yeah, he's part of the furniture in lots of ways now. He's amazing. He's incredible. We really hope you guys enjoyed it as well. It's a real lesson of how you can turn your life around and when you're really at the top, which Riordan was, never as soon as you would think you're at the top that's the moment it starts to fall down so so many lessons in that now we hope you enjoyed the episode as always please get in touch let us know what you think of the show what guests you want to next anything at all at great company podcast on instagram or you can send us an email great company at jampo productions.co.uk and of course we're going to see you next week for another episode of great company

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