PERRIE EDWARDS: Letting Go of a Friendship I Thought Would Last Forever

0:00I need to be careful how I say this. I'm just going to say it. You know, you've sung about writers when you have friend breakups. When the other person doesn't take any accountability. That boils my blood. I'm not saying she's this fucking monster, but take some accountability for your actions. Do you think you will rekindle the friendship of her? Um, if I'm being completely transparent. Hey, I'm Perrie and I'm in great company. It's Perrie at work!

0:47Sing it! When you go through heartbreak, it is hellish. It's the worst thing in the world. And then what makes it even worse is I feel like the world was then looking at me, laughing at me. Wow I felt embarrassed I felt horrified It was awful How do you stay sane through that? I didn't You don't? I had a mental beat I had like serious breakdowns I did You also went through a miscarriage We were about 24 weeks when we lost our baby But we'd named him And I think having to give birth to a child that you can't take home Oh, Perry I'm sorry Oh, this is awful.

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2:37Guys, just before we start, I wanted to let you know that this episode contains discussions about miscarriage and baby loss. Now, please take care whilst listening or watching. If you or someone you know is affected by this, please know that support is available. You can find information and links to helpful resources in the show notes. Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Great Company. Today's guest is Perry Edwards. That is an offset. Okay, now before we start, if I can ask you one favor, just hit that subscribe button. It means you can join our community and it means that we can keep making this show better and better for you each week.

3:13If you can do that one thing, thank you so much. Enjoy this episode of Great Company with Perry Edwards. Perry listen I've just listened to your brand new single Yes Passenger Princess Mmhmm Were you just listening to Upstairs Oh nice What do you think You like it Okay I promise you right Okay It's unbelievable Oh yay It reminds me of kind of like It's like Avril Lavigne Yeah Like a rock poppy It's insane Oh yay That makes me really happy Thank you When you When you make that When you do A song like that Do you know in your head like this feels good this feels exciting yeah i think so yeah and i've got that feeling with this song and i wrote it with nina nesbit and we just have such a laugh together like we're taking the mic like the lyrics i don't want to take out the bins we were like can we open a song with this is the first line or is it a bit random it's a bit out there isn't it and then my patience is on manjaro like my patience is wearing thin like i haven't got time for this shit so that's kind of like we were just bantering and it ended up being a thing and now i just love it can you how do you find a solo career since being in a band for so long and then becoming solo that's a big shift it is a big shift that's the I think I've struggled the most with that shift what explain to me why I think it's it's like a double-edged sword I keep saying because you come out when you're a new artist and you're not established yet right and you're trying to figure out your sound figure out who you are as an artist it's an art at the end of the day so you kind of you have to try everything before you know and before it sticks like look at Sabrina Carpenter she's been around for years yes but only now it's like starting to pop off and people are listening it's like but she's been great for ages but it just takes one thing to stick does that make sense totally 100 % you can work around like behind the scenes do your thing when you come from a big band like Little Mix was because we were we were huge we were successful we did a lot people then have the expectation of you coming out of a band that you have to then be great from the get-go but who has that expectation yourself your team your management I think everybody I think my label probably expected it.

5:15I think the fans expected, like everybody has these expectations of me. That is a lot of pressure and I don't do well with pressure like that. And it gets to me. And I think if I was a new up and coming artist and I was figuring my shit out behind the scenes and then I came out, I'd be less pressured. But I don't want people hearing me and be like, oh, that's not what I thought she was going to do when she left the group. Oh, that's not the kind of route I thought she'd go down. So it is a lot of pressure. but then you're blessed in a way because you have a fan base already. So you can't really...

5:45Yeah, but it's a double-edged sword as you said. It's like you've got to weigh up the pros and the cons really. Yeah, because you're so right. I think what your base is saying is you take Sabrina Carpenter, people look at the end product and they go, my God, she's big. She's been doing it for so many years. So many years. Every artist, every person who's successful has been doing that grind for so long. Yeah. And so now, because you've had so much success before, it's like, okay, well there needs to be success now. It needs to like follow that kind of success. And you don't have the others to lean on as well.

6:11yes we won x factor and we were successful but it didn't happen overnight it wasn't instant we had a few dodgy singles or a few things that didn't really work and then we try something else and we were r &b at one point and we went really pop and then we went more like regimented salute like yeah everything was all like we tried everything and it worked because people grew with us over time whereas i'm coming out now from that and they're like do something great now do it now instant and I'm like give me a minute just let me figure it out I just want to understand what I mean yeah wow I'm like I just want to figure it out what does that do to you emotionally mentally because that's a hard thing we're having that much pressure it is a lot and I think like I'm a people pleaser as well I like people to be happy I want my team to be happy I want like everyone around me to be like in this happy little bubble and everything's great and blah blah blah which obviously isn't life really is it you've you've got to take there's the what is it you've got to weather the rough with the smooth yeah you've got to take the rough with the smooth and i think yeah i just i want to please everybody and i want my fans to be pleased and i think please and other people so much you then start to really lose yourself i think and then you can kind of get lost i'm really trying in later life not to be a people pleaser me too it's hard but i'm getting better at it i think also is there a pressure as well like being in a band and then becoming solo and then others within the band also having a solo career it's not competitiveness but it's I imagine you have to have different sounds as well I mean you say it's not competitive but it really is great not between us like me and the girls we don't have that in our bones like we love each other so much if I see the girls doing well I feel like I'm winning because I love them that much I want to see them do well really?

7:56truthfully you have that? yes truthfully and that makes me happy whereas everybody else from the outside compares us all the time and it is draining. Like Leanne doesn't want to be compared to me all the time. I don't want to be compared to Jade all the time and vice versa. It's exhausting again but it's just how people are I think when you come from a group. They love to pit you against each other but Little Mix was never about that when we were together let alone now. Do you know what I mean? Yeah because Little Mix was never that. No we were never that. I think Little Mix is one of the greatest bands of all time 100 % flat out.

8:27Thank you. Without a doubt. I agree. We were unbelievable. You were on. Thanks. Honestly, toot toot, blow that horn. Yeah, I'm buzzing. Okay, 50 million records sold worldwide. Over 15 billion global streams and sold over 3 million concert tickets. Unbelievable. Wow. When you put it like that, that is insane, isn't it? My favourite? Yeah, go. Your vocals? Yeah. With Jason Derulo. Oh, Secret Love Song. Do you like that one? Mary, I don't dislike it. I love it.

9:03I love it. I love that song. It's so... It's such a good song. Can I... Shall I go for it? Go for it. Go for it. Don't quite know the lyrics, but... When you're home is in last street And it's beyond the dance floor That's beautiful. And if you'd be like that Why can't it be like that? because I'm oh that wasn't good that's no that was really good but that's a hard bit that though that's a big bit even I get a bit when that comes so when you get to that when you get when you were getting to that moment yes when you and you have to take it to another level because there's the bit at the end oh yeah I'd be shitting myself it's the I'm yours that one and then because I did this stupid thing of holding it on every night people were expecting it then I thought oh I have to because we're Maria

9:59Exactly that. Just like that. Just like that. Can you do it now? I can't. I'm not warm. Do you know, I haven't sang that song in six years. Have you not? And I'm thinking about like performing it again when I do the live gigs because it was such a moment and the crowd loved singing it. Yeah. But I'm so scared because that note is insane. But I always said to myself, if I fluffed it up and it went wrong, I'd just do it again. Oh, so you would just stop and say, right, I'm going to do that again. Yeah, because it's right at the end. And as long as I know the key, I'll just do it again. I'll just come back in.

10:29You have the confidence to do that now, right? Oh, yeah. Which is amazing. It's so funny how, like, as we go through life, we get this complete confidence. And we're just like, why didn't we have this mentality when we were younger? Because all the stories of you when you were younger, you were in this incredible thing. You could always sing, but you didn't have the confidence to go and do it. No, I was just terrified. Why were you terrified when you were younger? I don't know. I think you care more about what people think. I think that comes with age. And even though your elders will say, you won't care as much, you know, just let, like, don't worry about what people think and what they say.

10:58But it's hard to actually do that when you're younger, I think, because I think people's opinions mean everything when you're younger. I don't know why. But as I'm getting older and I'm realizing life is too short, I'm only put on this planet once. I want to do it right. Do you know what I mean? So I can't spend it worrying about what people think of me. Now I'm at the place, but like you said earlier with the people pleasing thing, if people don't like me, tough shit. Yeah, but do you really mean that? Yes, I do. Whereas before I didn't. I wanted people to like me. I needed people to like me.

11:28And now I really do not care at all. Where do you think that comes from? Because I, you do therapy, right? Yes. And I do therapy. Well, I've actually sort of stopped my therapy. I don't know, I've stopped since becoming a dad, I've stopped. Okay, is that just because you haven't got time really? No time. Yeah. No time to like breathe, no time to do anything. And actually, I think therapy, if you can do therapy in any form, is the most important thing because the self-awareness that we get from it. Absolutely. It's crazy, right? And what I realized, the reason why I'm a people-pleased, the reason why I want to be loved was from a lot of different things when I was younger.

12:05Why do you think you have that within you? What have you learned about yourself? I think I have serious abandonment issues. You too? Yeah. I think that's what it comes down to. And I never realized it at the time because I grew up with my mom doing everything for me and having her such a strong, independent woman. But really, I think about like my dad left when I was six months. And I think that your body holds on to the trauma, even though I don't remember it. I still think, oh, my dad didn't want to be here. Do you know what I mean? So it was like that. And then you have relationships and they'll leave you for someone else.

12:37And it's all and it's constantly it's like, oh, God, I'm not good enough because nobody wants to be around. Does that make sense? Makes total sense. It's got real deep, real quick, doesn't it? It's got real deep. Oh, don't I open you up straight away? Wait, am I talking deep now? No, I'm so with you. I think that's what it is. It's totally that. Yeah, when my parents divorced, and I think that for me, and I was sent up to boarding school, and I've spoken about this a lot, but that's what did it to me. And you don't really realize that. And now for me, which is, I'm going through this process now because I just had a baby boy, right?

13:08I'm looking at me, a younger me, when I was sort of 18 to 27. and I feel so sorry for that young kid because I was trying to be so many things I just wasn't like so many different things because I was so scared of not fitting in being abandoned and it's sad to think that I went through so much without realising why I was going through it yeah I feel like at the time you don't you just kind of plod along with it don't you and then when you start looking back on it but yeah it's like that little child inside of you you want to like protect it and then when you have children it gives you a whole new outlook on life, doesn't it?

13:42Why did your dad leave? He met someone else. And they're still together now and I adore her. So it's like everything happens for a reason. But at the time it was like, oh no. You know what I mean? And I was just a baby so I didn't know. I didn't know any different. And like at the time we just went through, but now that I'm older and I look back on how my mom was, I don't know how she did it. because I couldn't imagine doing what she did with two kids on her own, like no money, nothing. Do you know what I mean? It's hard. But I never felt like I didn't have things when I was growing up. Everything we had was secondhand, but I still had it.

14:20Do you know what I mean? So I don't look back on my childhood and go, oh, poor me. I had nothing. I had a great childhood. I was very happy as a child. You know? Yeah, I do know. So it's interesting. I know, it's amazing. And you grew up, but you moved around a lot, didn't you? Yes, a lot. And you ended up, you were in New Zealand for a bit as well? We were everywhere. Again, though, at the time I was like, oh, we're off again. But when I look back now, I think my mum was probably just trying to figure this shit out on her own. And she just wanted to keep moving around here, there and everywhere.

14:52So when was the first moment that you realised that you could sing? From a very young age, actually. Because I remember being like, I went to a Catholic school and we sung for everything. We sung for our lunch. We sung for our breaks. We sung, just everything was singing. And I remember sitting next to the kids in the class thinking, you ain't doing that right. Like it would really offend me. So it's just natural. Yeah. Because people who are tone deaf, I don't understand how their brains work. It fascinates me. I'm tone deaf. Oh, really? I think so. Okay. Well, I didn't want to say, but no, I'm joking.

15:24But I don't know how people can't hear the note. Like if I go, and someone can't go, that offends me. And I know I shouldn't. You can just hear that. Yeah. But if I go, and someone goes, I'm like, no, that's wrong. Do you know what I mean? But can you name the note? No, I'm not that good. I'm not like Uzo, M &EK. But you can mimic people. So if someone sings it, you can go straight into it. Yeah, like pitch. And I know if people have good pitch or they don't. And I knew that from a very young age because I could sing along to anything and I used to impersonate people a lot. Like Britney, I went through Britney's stage.

16:02Like a song like that all the time. All the time. Can I do that again? Some of the people. Like that. I just loved it. I wanted to impersonate everyone. And then like Anastasia and like Alanis Morissette. Like I used to just yodel all the time. Like it was like never ending. But I would just spend hours and hours and hours singing. So I knew it was like a passion. Does that mean though when you go into singing, do you then try and mimic someone? How do you find your own voice? Because if you're fans of Britney Spears or Avril Lavigne or whatever, or Diana Ross, doesn't matter who it is. You kind of want to mimic them because you know they've been successful.

16:36So how do you find that voice within you? I think it just comes eventually because I think you just take it like you take in so much. You're like a sponge at that age, aren't you? So you try everything and then whatever feels the most comfortable is what I think is like your natural singing voice. Does that make sense? So when people sing in cursive, I'm like, but that's not real, is it? Hey there, it's Wayfair here, where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone. You're relaxing in an old hammock, scrolling Wayfair's app, when you spot it, a brand new patio set. Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio and sets it up.

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18:01Were you popular at school? It depends how you define popular. I had a lot of friends, but I don't think I was a popular girl. But I moved around so much, so I was kind of popular because I was always the new girl. Because that's what I mean. Because you were moving around so much, I imagine that would be quite hard to fit in because you're constantly changing the whole time. And then you go to New Zealand and spend time in New Zealand and then you come back again. Yeah. See, that's a lot. It is a lot for my little nervous system at that age. Yeah. But I used to just think, oh, it's good because I'm good at making friends.

18:34So I had to then introduce myself to people and be like, hi, I'm Perry, I'm from England and da-da-da-da-da. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But that's another thing as well. My accent used to morph into different things because when I lived in Weymouth, I was a bit more posh. And then I went to South Shields and then I was like talking more Geordie and then I moved to New Zealand and I was all of a sudden being like Kiwi. So it's a bit odd, isn't it? So now my accent's all over the gaff. X Factor was a big moment for you. And do you know, I say this every single time, but I think it's pretty amazing, right?

19:08Where Harry Styles won a Grammy, right? And he got up on stage and he says, I want to thank the X Factor. It's amazing. You know, a lot of people, when they speak to me or a lot of my cast members from Made in Chelsea, they don't want to talk about it. It's not me. I'm such a believer in understanding and recognizing your roots. I agree. You know, good, bad, whatever it is, you have to recognize where you came from. Where do you sit with that? I completely agree. I think every platform and every opportunity we've been given is, it's wild. Like I'm lucky I got an X Factor. I'm lucky I got noticed.

19:41I'm lucky I went all the way and we're lucky that we won. Do you know what I mean? And I think, I don't look back and go, oh, X Factor gross. Because yeah, it was hard and it was a lot, but I'm still grateful it happened. but I'm a bit like that with everything my mum calls me Pollyanna you know Pollyanna the movie do you remember that and it's a little girl and she's just so positive about everything like I always think like I don't like it when people rewrite history either I don't like it when people look back on things and go oh it was this and it was that but it wasn't was it do you know what I mean that bugs me it's like just yes it was hard and I'm not saying it was the most straightforward most humane show and it wasn't the most things weren't handled right but i'm still very glad it happened and it got me to where i am now i'm grateful but if i could because on your solo career now and in your head i don't you probably think think this is that because you you you 100 have the talent you have the personality you have the looks you have everything you could you do though right you could you could have had a solo career or in a band without the x factor right so if i gave you a magic wand truthfully and you could re you could or a genie and you said, I give you one wish, you can redo your life and you can do X Factor and not do it.

20:54Would you redo X Factor? Yes. You would? 100 %? 100 % and I would 100 % want to be in the group again. Like I thrive in a group dynamic or I did when I was younger because I wasn't confident. I was painfully shy and every time I auditioned, I sounded terrible and I'd never experienced nerves before. That's so annoying. Knowing that you can't give your best in that moment. And my voice was shaking and it was going like that And I was like, oh my God, I don't know what's happening to me. And they're like, oh, you're just nervous. And I thought, is that what that is? I don't, I've never had that before.

21:25It's weird. So I think when they put me with the girls, I was thinking, right, this is it. My mom even said that if I'm lucky, they'll put me in a group because I was so painfully shy. If the camera was there, I'd be like that. Trying to avoid it. Whereas now I'm like, look at me. But at the time I needed the girls around me and I was so young. I was only 17. That is baby. I was a baby. 16 when I first auditioned I think in 17 ish when we won 18 maybe we had jesse on the podcast right and she said being in a band was amazing and it's not until you go solo that you realize how powerful being in a band really is it's true I think it is but I just have but I knew that in the moment though we we we knew we were blessed to have each other and I think if you know we didn't get along and it was hard and we went through all these different things because it wasn't peachy all the time.

22:17It was hard, but we still had each other. And I think we'd always put our shit to one side and be like, no, we're in this together and we want the same thing. We have to make it work. But explain to me the hard bits, right? Because for someone who looks in, right? And I know, but for someone who's listening right now, watching, looking in, they're going, but you had everything. You got to travel the world. You got to do this. You got to do that. So what are the hard bits that people don't see? I think the hard part is being 17, 18 and being whisked away from your family and that's it. You don't get time to see them that much.

22:47You don't see your friends. You miss events. You miss big milestones in people's lives. You don't get to be a part of the normal stuff anymore. And you're a goldfish in a pond. Everybody's looking at you. Everybody's watching your every move, who you're dating, who you're seeing, who you're out with. Are you drinking? Are you partying too much? Are you being boring? It's everything. it's like when you're that age I didn't know what the hell I was doing at 17 18 I was figuring it out but I was figuring out with a lens in front of me 24 7 it's also too young to figure it out yeah paparazzi's trying to get up my skirt at 18 years old I'm like this is weird like men following me home like all these different things that people are like but you're so lucky you're in a girl but I'm like yeah but there's people out there who are also a bit nuts and we have to deal with them and it's like you had paparazzi trying to do upscaling and you had men following you home Yeah, a lot of the time, yeah.

23:37That's terrifying. I know. And I used to park up somewhere else and then either go to my manager's house or go somewhere else until I'd lost them and then I'd have to go all the way back home then because I didn't want to be followed. So I'd have to try and lose them. And there's just like, this is the thing. There's two sides to being famous, I suppose, isn't there? And you don't have the choice. But now it's so different to what it was when we were on the scene. When we first came out, like paps were everywhere. Cameras were everywhere. where every move was documented, everything was a headline, everything was seen, whereas now I feel like I go about my life and nobody cares, but maybe that's just because they're bored of me.

24:12They're not bored of me. But it's not the same anymore. I don't get papped everywhere anymore. I don't think anyone really does, do they? No, they don't. Because of social media. They've taken that money away from paps, essentially, haven't they? But can I ask a question? Because you had the abandonment issue, right? Yes. Because your dad left when you were so young and that you thought everyone was going to leave. When you get given fame, it's like the most... it's like nectar for someone who has abandonment because it's so exciting. And wait, everyone wants me and everyone loves me. It's everything you've ever wanted.

24:43And it's hard, right? Because you also want to be a singer, but you also want to be famous, I imagine, right? Yeah, parts of me enjoys it. When it works in my favour, I love it. If it gets me at the front of the queue, why not? If it gets me a discount, why not? But when it's like people are invasive and in my space, then I'm like, no. But I do think fame is addictive. 100%. I think when you're liked and when you're adored, it's the best feeling in the world because who doesn't want that? It's normal to feel like that. Even if you're at school and you're Miss Popular or Mr. Popular and you go through your life if you're working in an office and you're the main one or you're the golden boy or whatever, it makes you feel something.

25:22So you can't deny that. I can't say, oh, I don't like it. I love it. I like it. but I think I wanted it and I craved it more before I had children explain that to me so I think for me being in the industry and being a singer was everything and if I wasn't that I was I was a nothing I was a failure I was a nobody nobody cared but then when you have kids it just puts everything in perspective and it's like hang on a minute yes I do this because I love it and it's what makes me happy and I'm at my happiest when I'm on stage it's not everything it's not my children's health and happiness and everything else that's what's important so i think you just get a whole new look on life yeah your whole priority shift everything shifts it's crazy where that happens your brain your brain expands yes everything shifts and everything becomes different and don't get me wrong i want it still i want to be out there i want to be a pop star it's who makes me feel like me i'm like i love being a mom but i also love doing what i love to do so it's finding that balance but it's not like I I need it now otherwise I'm nothing so what I mean yeah totally so when you're in little mix right results mattered massively yes 100 right you needed to be the top it was like we need to do this we need to be the best yeah and that also comes with that fear of abandon we're going to lose this at some point it's going to go yeah it's going to go absolutely and now that's shifted where you don't think there's not much pressure on yourself it feels like a little bit no and I think that changes as well with the industry the industry is completely different now like back in little mix days if we didn't get a number one or a top five it was a failure it was bad because the amount of money that was invested in us and the amount of work and time and commitment that everybody put into it it was a big huge disappointment and it felt like shit whereas now chart position doesn't really it doesn't matter anymore it's about streams and it's about this and it's about social media content and everything's kind of shifted anyway so I think then you start thinking all right well that's not important anymore now this is important and xyz is important so i think that shifted anyway but back in little mix if we if we didn't get like the success we craved we felt so shit what was the what was the hardest part about being in little mix around that time what was it i think what i said just about our personal lives being everywhere like that was a lot um and it was a lot to to deal with because it didn't it wasn't normal really is it it's not normal because also you're growing up and you go through a public breakup as well.

27:49And that's tough. Yeah, that is tough. I think it's only tough because one, I mean, people are going to hate me talking about it. They're fucking, I can't catch a break. If I talk about this, I'm like, why are you talking about it? But anyway, shut up. Because it's your life. Yeah, exactly. And it's your life. Yeah, I think. Let's freaking talk about it. Like when you go through heartbreak. Yes. It is hellish. It's the worst thing in the world. You can't eat. You can't sleep. You feel horrendous. Again, abandoned. You feel abandoned. and you don't feel good enough and you feel like you've been left for something better or whatever it is obviously and then what makes it even worse is I feel like the world was then looking at me laughing at me wow I felt like everyone thought uh-huh do you know what I mean and not not my fans like my fans were like we love you we'll fight your corner no matter what but I felt like everyone I felt embarrassed I felt horrified it was awful how do you stay sane through that I didn't you don't i had a menti b or two i had like serious breakdowns i did because it wasn't just the heartbreak i was dealing with i was dealing with everybody like looking at me and i felt ridiculed i just i just couldn't cope with it i hated it i was breaking down in performances which isn't like me at all i was breaking down i was crying constantly i was i was i think i was depressed and i know it sounds ridiculous but i think it was this plus this plus this and everything on top it was like I had to be there for the girls I had to be switched on I had to power through for for little mates but I also just wanted to be left the fuck alone but I also was getting followed every two seconds and asked about it 24 7 and it was the headlines it was everywhere and it was a lot and like this is the thing when people are like stop talking about it I'm like but it really affected me yeah but Barry you shouldn't you shouldn't feel like you have to stop talking about things because other people say so who cares yeah no you're right was as hard for Zane as it was for you, do you think?

29:45I don't think at the time. I think when you're, I need to be careful how I say this, but there was, let's just say there was a bit of a,

30:00I'm just going to say it. So there was a bit of an overlap. You see. And I think when you're moving on with somebody else, you always get on better. When you're the one left behind, that's when it's hard. Because it's like, oh shit, they've left me for someone more beautiful than me, someone better than me. Whatever it is, that's how it felt at the time. And then you have a song that they've written about you, but then someone else is in the video. It was one thing after the other after the other. And I remember finding out about that. Perry, that is it. Yeah. And I just, I went in and my dad and my brother were at the house at the time and I just moved into my little bungalow in Surrey.

30:44So I was trying to get as far away as I could. And I just remember finding out about that. And it was like the nail in the coffin. And I thought this is all getting a bit much. And then I started crying my eyes out and then my dad started crying. He was like, I don't know how I can take this pain away. And I'm like, you can't. Nobody can. This is hellish. Like, what is going on? It was really one thing after the other. And there's so much that people don't know about that I would never say, even though I've just spilt some beans. But there's so much that went into it that I would never talk about that I went through and it was real hard.

31:20So that's probably why I get a bit frustrated at times. How did it change your understanding of love? It made me realize that that was very unhealthy. and that I mean you can say it was young puppy love or whatever and you're like whisked away with it and I think now that I've experienced what healthy love is with Alex yeah it's so nice it doesn't make you feel sick to your stomach all the time it doesn't make you feel icky it doesn't make you feel like you're not worthy or you're not good enough or you could be doing everything better and you know it doesn't feel competitive it doesn't feel toxic like that's exactly what i would say it was it doesn't feel like that when you experience it the good way and sometimes we get confused right yeah you think that's right we think that's passion yeah you're like they love me this much this is exciting yeah it has to be i remember when i'm I remember when I met Sophie and we were like best friends, right?

32:22And we then met each other and we started like hooking up. And I was like, I remember saying to her things like, I'm going to go on a night out. And she was like, okay. And I was like, what? Okay. And there's no backlash with this? I'm going to drink loads. Okay. Yeah. And it was, I actually at the beginning got scared with Sophie because I was like, are we, is this, it was still. Oh, I see what you're saying. It was still. That's understandable. So you're like, there's no like fire. There's no like heated arguments or anything. There's no heated things. There's no arguments. There's no. Yeah.

32:58And then what I realized is actually being still, feeling confident in a relationship. Yeah. Is actually what you're after. A hundred percent. Those, we still have peaks and ups and downs. Yeah, of course, that's natural. A hundred percent. But it's not really up a height and I'm really low and I'm really here and really there. That isn't healthy. It's just not. You can call it passion, but that only takes you so far, doesn't it? What do you love about Alex? Everything. Oh, I'm such a sop. I just love how calm he is and how understanding he is and how caring he is and thoughtful he is. There's things he does that irritates the shit out of me, but that's fine but like yeah i just feel safe with alex i feel just content and happy and it's not effort you um you also went through a miscarriage twice together yes we did and you had a really tough time with it yeah i feel like the first time around it was more just i don't i don't know because i i found out i was pregnant yeah then i went to have a scan and it was a really early scan.

34:09And you were really excited. I was just like, oh my gosh, because it wasn't planned. And it was, I felt weird, but I was a bit like, oh, okay, maybe this is a good thing. Like we love each other. We're going to be together forever. So maybe it's like, okay, but I'll go have a scan and just check. But before the scan, I started bleeding and I was thinking, oh no, maybe I'm not pregnant, but I was still seeing pregnant on the stick and everything like that. And then we got there. Well, I went by myself, actually. I was on my own. So I went into somewhere on Harley Street, went for the scan. And then they were like, hmm, OK.

34:46And the woman said to me, she was like, there's no sack. There's no baby. And I thought, how embarrassing. I've imagined the whole thing. Like I was starting to think, did I read it wrong? I'm sure it said pregnant. And I'm sure there was. I did so many of them. So I was then convinced that I'd made the whole thing up. So I was going a bit crazy. and then I went into the you know the the appointment after with my gynecologist and he sat me down he was like no no no there's no baby and I said no I understand I understand that I've I've been told that but was there ever a baby or was there I'm really confused like he just and he was like no no no there was a pregnancy darling but now it's gone and he was like you've miscarried and I was like oh okay and then I just felt weird and then it was a bit bizarre and it was almost I was like, it felt like something that I wasn't fully attached in a way.

35:35I know that sounds awful. Yeah, for sure. Because it was so early. It was all a bit of a... But it doesn't sound awful. It totally makes sense. Yeah, it was a bit windswept-y. I was just, it was all a bit weird. So then it kind of freaked me out moving forward. And then when I fell pregnant with Axel, then the whole pregnancy, I was thinking, oh no, this could happen again. So I felt like I was scared to get attached. But then I was attached. And then it was almost like scary. Wow, Barry. no one I didn't even think of it like that yeah it's because you of course because you don't you want to so you don't want to get attached yeah like well it's I've you don't know you don't know but then you can't help but get attached you can't help but get excited and then the bigger you get and the more bump you get and it's all becoming a bit real and then you decorate the room and all these things and luckily my pregnancy with Axel was amazing I loved every second of being pregnant once I was past the 12 weeks and I felt like I felt like everything was fine all the appointments were great everything was going well I thought right this is it and I just basked in it I loved every second of it and that kind of got me feeling a bit more positive and I was like right I can do this I've birthed a human I've done it once I can do it again and then we got pregnant again and then we were about 24 weeks when we lost our baby but we'd named him and it was all this kind of again I was attached but because I just had Axel I wasn't living in the headspace of oh something could happen I was just like I've just done this and I'm doing it again and I love it.

36:59So I wasn't even thinking anything was going to go wrong until it went wrong. And that was like traumatic because I feel like when you're that far along and you have to have the procedure, it's, I don't know, it's just different. No way to have a miscarriage is easy. If it happens at the beginning, it's not easier than it happening further down the line. It's just not nice in general, is it? And I think having to give birth to a child that you can't take home. Oh, Perry. I'm sorry. It's okay. Oh, Perry.

37:38It's awful. All I do is cry, I swear. I'm a cunt, so that's fine. But cry. Let it out. It's okay to cry. Yeah. I know. I can't even imagine that. You know, I can't even imagine. Yeah. Going through that experience and... Yeah. It is sad, but we have his little ashes and it's like, it's just life, isn't it? It's awful and it seems so unfair. You know, it's really important to talk about this because so many people go through this and you're helping them because they're going, well, she's gone through it so I can get through this as well. Yeah, no, and that gives me some peace. Like that makes me feel a bit more like content with talking about it.

38:22What would you say to someone who's experiencing that right now or just going through it? I think it just, there's not really anything you can say to make it easier. I don't think anything really necessarily helps, but I think for me, I'm in a position where I've been through it twice, but I've also got two children. So it's like, I can't even imagine what it must be like for the women who go through what I went through and still don't have a baby. Do you know what I mean? And I was, it took me a while to want to go again. And I always knew I wanted more children than just one. I always knew I wanted Axel to have siblings, whether two or three or whatever, but I just didn't have it in me to get pregnant again.

39:02Like I was just terrified. I thought it's probably best to just leave it. So that's why there's such a big gap now, um, between like Axel and Alanis. It's not a huge gap, but it's not the gap I wanted, you know? Um, but it took me a lot to get over what happened to try again. And I think especially after what happened with this when I was pregnant with Alanis I was just on edge the whole time all I did was eat gained four and a half stone of comfort food and every appointment I was just my like like stomach felt like it was doing somersaults and it's so scary I was like just it was just a lot every appointment it wasn't enjoyable and I and I that upsets me because I love being pregnant I love the feeling of it I love carrying a baby I feel powerful I feel like untouchable it's wild how you feel that I'm like sad that during the pregnancy I didn't get to enjoy it fully until the very end really because I was just always on edge because you feel like that's sort of been taken from you yeah and we had so many extra scans like Alanis was scanned more than any baby in the history I think ever I was like give me one more I'll have one more fancy another one honestly I'll do it yeah fancy another I couldn't get enough scans just for reassurance because I was just so scared yeah but that's so understandable yeah I want to also mention Alex as well because you know if a partner is listening to this right now and their wife or whoever is going through it what would you say to the partner how does the partner react what does the partner need to do say to make it okay because they're in it but they also need to protect their loved one who's the one experiencing it yeah I get why people say it like that and I get in the moment why Alex was like you know you're going through this but it wasn't me obviously I'm carrying the baby and I'm going through the procedures and I'm having to do all these things that I didn't want to do but he just felt for me because he knew how hard it was and what I was going through but then I was also looking at him thinking but you've lost our baby too do you know what I mean and he'd planned all these things and what we wanted to do and we're going to have two running around and this and the other and we had all the stuff ready like it was just I think for him he put on a brave face and he kind of dealt with it because I think that's what a lot of men are told to do and I hate that shit I hate that I don't think that's healthy at all why should men have that mentality and why should they be taught that from a young age as well they should be taught how to feel yeah and men would probably be more decent if they were taught their emotions yeah it's okay to feel it's okay it's okay it's okay you don't have to bury it and become you know you can cry yeah you can let it out and i think that's yeah i think that's important and i think alex did go through the motions and he tried to toughen up and be there for me but i know he went through it and i know he was struggling because it's it's just awful did you speak to the girls you speak to the band members yeah I spoke to the girls and they blessed them they were sending me like hampers from the white company and this that and the other and they were they were really sweet about it it was it was awful I think I told Leanne at the time because we have a group chat from when we had our babies because we were pregnant at the same time we did everything together of course we'd be in sync with our children as well and um it was I spoke to Leanne and I told Leanne first and I was like babe please can you tell Jade I know I would like to have spoke to Jade but even just telling people what had happened was making me feel sick to my stomach so once I explained it once I kind of was like please can you just take it from here and let Jade know and she was like of course babe like no problem so that that was hard like telling people and then friends would message and be like how's the bump how you feeling not knowing that we we didn't have the baby anymore so it was like And then I felt bad on them.

42:58Miss People Please Are again. Yeah, because you feel awkward for them. No, I feel awkward for them having to tell them, oh, there is no baby. And you'd be like, it's okay, by the way, though. It's okay. Yeah, but we're all right, that kind of thing. It's just all a bit. It's a really hard dynamic to get right, I think. You know, we had Jessie on and she obviously went, has been, and is going through such a tough time. And she said that after her pregnancy, how you all reached out to her. How is your relationship with each other now? I mean, when I think everything we've been through as a group, and even though it ended in ways that I wouldn't have wanted it to, and we're not that close anymore, and we're not in each other's lives, I still feel everything that the girls feel.

43:44And I think they're the same. We'll always have that weird connection. And seeing Jessie go through that, it broke me. because you wouldn't wish that on anyone. It's literally wild. And as much as we've got our issues and, you know, I think I don't want to see her go through that. I don't want to see her hurt and I don't want to see any of that. It's heartbreaking. You know, because really interesting what you said is that when we talk about breakups, right? And you talk about your breakup with Zayn and that being public and how tough that is. What you, you know, you sung about, right, is when you have friend breakups.

44:24You know, like I broke up with a friend as well. He sort of broke up with me, I think, more than I broke up with him. It was traumatic. It is. It was. It's hard. I was like, sorry, am I 16 again? Like being broke? Like, what is this? It hurts, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, it really hurts. It actually hurts. My friend, he said to me, look, we can't be friends for now. And I went, because of what? He said because of the selling things. Anyway, it wasn't my fault, right? Okay. But it was a really tough thing for me. And it took me about a year to get through it. Because I was suddenly like, hang on a second, you lose that sort of sister, you lose that brother.

45:04Yeah. It's really tough. And no one really talks about that, do they? No. And when you're used to living in each other's pockets for so long and telling them everything and being, like, experiencing everything with this person when they're gone, it is just as hard as a breakup, I think. Especially when you don't get closure. That's the worst of it. That's the worst part. If you get closure after a breakup, it cushions the blow. But I think when that's it, it's done and you've got no say in it anymore. It's almost like, well, hang on a minute. You don't get that. Like you can't shift that out of your system, can you?

45:37You're like me. You need closure as well. I need closure. Yeah. I can't move on without closure. I need to be told those things. And I find it so hard. I know. What are you like in an argument? Do you have to? I'm not good in arguments. I'm not good with confrontation. I'm quite quick-witted when it comes to funniness. But when it's serious, my brain doesn't think. I can't argue because I get overwhelmed and I'll just cry. And that's annoying in itself. So I just cry the whole time and it's just a nightmare. I'm not good at arguing unless I'm sticking up for somebody else. If I was like arguing for a friend, I wouldn't back down.

46:14But when it's me, I'm like, oh, I just hate it. So you've got that. So you wouldn't back down. No. if I was fighting for somebody that I cared about I would just be like a bulldog but with myself I'm like I haven't got time for this yeah but you have this heart that's why that's why when you have this it's almost it's too much I can't handle it your lyrics in Same Place Different View says say you'll change when will you mean it it's always a stormy season time and time I've tried to see the best in you but no use when you see my red is blue we're on different pages so there's nothing I can do me and you in the same place different view beautiful thank you I think it's just like sometimes you just won't win with people you just don't say eye to eye at all you could talk you could discuss something with somebody for hours and hours and hours and still at the end of that discussion be like well I still think this and you still think that and that's what it kind of came to and what annoys me the most again I have to be careful how I say this because I don't want to seem like a bitch but for me what upsets me the most is when situations like this happen when the other person doesn't take any accountability that boils my blood I'm not blaming everything on you I'm not saying she's this fucking monster and and everything was her fault and blah blah blah but take some accountability for your actions and realize you were difficult you did have difficult moments granted there was reasons for those moments but you can only pick somebody up so many fucking times before you start losing track of your own sanity and you want to be there for that person but if they don't if they can't accept the help and they can't accept the love that you're trying to show how do you win how do you get past that you can't no because what you're talking about you're talking about fairness as well yeah it's like hang on a second i understand there's fault here but you need to you need to I hate that.

48:15I don't like putting the blame on people. Don't put the blame on me and make me out to be something that I'm not. Yes, I'm not perfect and I might not have been there enough or I could have done better, I suppose. But I thought what I was doing was enough. I thought I'd tried everything. so then to then sit there in further interviews and discuss it publicly and be like I wasn't supported you were though do you know what I'm saying you you were so just again take some accountability do you think you're still angry I would say more frustrated than angry because I don't like being painted into a person that I'm not because I'm an open book I'll tell you exactly how it is and I'm very open I'm very to the point and that's beautiful by the way because I can feel that from yeah I have to be real it's so refreshing because you to sit with someone and I'm so open yeah I know you are so I watch you a lot yeah but I just I because it's so authentic and you are so authentic yeah and that is really important in life you you have to be yeah I think it's I have You have to be genuine.

49:25You have to be. But it exhausts me when I see other people that I know inside and out when they're not being genuine. And it frustrates me. Do you think you will rekindle the friendship ever? If I'm being completely transparent, part of me wanted to until the documentary. And then part of me withdrew again. And this is the thing. I'm not a horrible person. I haven't got a bad one in my body, but I can cut you off. Like I can't, you can do that. I can cut you out of my life like that. If you upset me and you hurt me in a way, there's not really any going back. I can forgive, but I don't want you in my space.

50:04And this is what I'm learning in therapy as well. Like I'm, there's capability and there's capacity, right? You're capable of anything. You can achieve anything if you really go for it and you work hard, but my capacity is fucking small. I only have a certain amount of roof. Do you know what I mean? that I can cram in. I have my career. I have my relationship. I have my friends. I have things going on. There's personal things. There's public things. There's everything. I don't have the capacity for somebody like that in my life anymore. And that might make me sound like a bitch, but I just don't have the energy for it.

50:38And as much as I will always love her, I don't think I can hack that energy in my space. No, I think it makes more sense than anything. I think I should take a leave out of that book. and I think more people listening should take a leave out of that book because actually there is not enough time. There's not enough time to try and fix everything and make everything okay. And if you can't, you just have to let it go and move on. You have to just step back, yeah. You can't fix everything and you can't fix people. That's for certain. They're set in their ways and clearly they don't think there's anything wrong with them.

51:06So you think, okay, you do you and I'll do me and that's that.

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52:28Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app. Wayfair, every style, every home. Your mum is called Debs. Debs. Debs, yeah. Or Debs. Who's more important, Alex or Debs? Oh my gosh, Jamie. Oh, that's tough because my mum is my world. She's my everything. She's my village. She does everything for me and Alex. So me and Alex wouldn't cope without Debs. She really, she's that in it. She's at home with the kids now. She's my nanny. She's my mummy. She's my best friend. She's my gone out buddy. We do everything together, me and Debs. and the thought of not having her in my life is the scariest fear. My worst fear in life is not having my mom.

53:15But then I have Alex that I'm going to spend the rest of my life with and he's then going to have to step up and be the Debs one day, you know? And that is like scary. You know what? It's my scary thing at the moment. Like I had a moment with my dad where it was during lockdown. And I think I mentioned this before, but during lockdown, he came back and he'd been on a bike ride it was a hot day and he didn't really remember where he'd been it was just a heat it was obviously a heat stroke or whatever it was and it suddenly went I had this moment where I went wait you're not invincible wait hang on a second you're not invincible you're not yeah that's hard what?

53:50it's not nice that feeling and now you know I'm very close with my parents but very close with my mum my mum is just I love my mum and you think like how many more summers how many more Christmases how many more East I know and I'm getting to that stage now where I start to it kills me it's the worst I can't imagine it I can't I don't even want to talk about it Jimmy move on Debs is living forever what's something your mum taught you that you hope you can pass on to your children?

54:25I think my mum's always been really good at letting me be what I want to be she's never said don't do that you shouldn't do that she's like you just learn from it so you if you fuck up you fuck up and you make it work and and another thing is she always says to me which i absolutely love is there's nothing in this life we can't fix yeah and i love that yeah yeah because in the moment it feels like it's the end of the world but there's always something you can fix you know and you can get past it you get past it it's not forever it's not a forever feeling and you can get through it that's what i love when a door shuts a window opens you just have to find that window and get yourself through absolutely but perry what's amazing is that you're juggling new music your babies like being how are you juggling all of that with deb's more deb's she holds down the fort for me um but yeah i i've got a very good balance of work life mum life all that stuff i think but you wouldn't be you without making new music without touring without being on stage without singing no i don't think that's that's within in your soul isn't it yeah i love it so are you not so excited about this new music yeah and i feel like i've figured out my sound a bit more now and i'm i just love the music i was raised on like what was that like pop rock um like bit of punk like guns and roses aerosmith steve perry journey that's all my favorite kind of music aerosmith and avril lavigne grown up hayley Williams, Paramore.

55:57They are all my biggest influences with music. When I'm around the house, that's the music I want to listen to. I want to listen to the big ballad, 80s pop rock ballads. All of that is the love of my life. When you hear those songs, what does it do to your soul? It makes me feel like warm and fuzzy and like amazing inside. I love that feeling. So greatest song for you of all time? Oh my gosh, that's impossible. Do you have to pick it? The first song that came to my head was probably Aerosmith, Don't Want to Miss a Thing. That's got to be one of the greatest songs ever written, no? Without a freaking doubt.

56:32Without a doubt, right? I don't want to close my eyes. I don't want to fall asleep because I miss you, baby. And I don't want to miss a thing. Even when I dream of you, the sweetest thing I'll never do, I still miss you, Perry. Sing it And I don't want to miss a thing Can I just say Yes You're freaking brilliant, man Oh, thanks Yes So are you No, no, honestly You're so great Thanks I wish other people I wish people listening and watching right now could feel the energy of you Your energy is just This sounds weird You would be You're just such You're an amazing mother Oh that's lovely You're an amazing mother Amazing friend You can just feel it Thanks Like yeah on you It's just a It's a lovely Aura to be around I love that Thank you so much You are too Listen we're going to leave All the links to all of your music In the show description Everything Oh that would be lovely Thanks 100 % I want everyone to go And check out Every single one of your songs Oh that would be great Get them streams up will ya Get those freaking streams up Yeah go on Get them up Listen Perri We'd like to finish to our conversation with eight questions.

57:51Are you ready? Okay, yep, ready. What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? Don't worry, be happy. Okay. Don't worry, be happy. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? The one you just gave me then. But it's true, by the way. That's genuine. I promise you. Your aura is just beautiful. That's so nice. What scares you most about yourself? Not trusting my own intuition. Wow. Yeah, terrifies me. I feel like my gut's very strong and I don't listen to it often, but I should. Apart from today, last time you cried. I was going to say that five seconds ago. When did I last cry? Yesterday.

58:35Okay. It's not a regular occurrence that much. It just so happens that it was yesterday. What happened yesterday? I just felt very lovey-dovey and in my feels.

58:52What's something you can't let go of? Singing Yeah 100 % What's your guilty pleasure? Probably like a good teen rom-com Like The Summer of Ten Pretty Off campus Which I'm watching now And it's Please Is it good? Please Wait hold on Is it? I'm not Oh my gosh I'm honestly Is it that good? Obsessed Yes Oh my gosh Oh my gosh I can't wait to get in the car As much as I love your company I can't wait to get in the car and watch it I've downloaded the episodes on my iPad I'm on episode 6 or something Is it that good? It's so good I thought the Summer of Town Pretty was good and then but it's wild though because the first episode you just say tits, tits, ass, tits it's quite like raunchy but it's really good Wait, what's this called?

59:36It's called Off Campus Off Campus Are they all hot? Yeah Yeah My gosh, they're hot It's just brilliant It's so good Shit, I need to watch this You should Did you watch the Summer of Town Pretty? I didn't watch it, no. Sophie did. She loved it. Did she? See, she will love Off Campus. Oh my gosh, tell her I get it on tonight. What turns you off? Arrogance. 100%. What turns you on? The way people talk to people and the way they handle a room. That is like a big turn on. Does Alex handle a room? Yeah. Oh yeah. He walks in a room and he owns it. But in a nice way. Like quite badass, but also quite humble.

1:00:16he's got a perfect balance it's just really good I don't know he's got something about him he's very like he's quite charismatic and like do you know what I mean he's just so funny that is sexy it's so sexy that means he knows himself very well yes and I like that he's got a very silent like confidence in himself I love that so fit

1:00:42bonus one okay favourite little mix someone give it to me I might have to go Do you know what? Today I'm feeling power Yeah I'm feeling power That's a bop isn't it? Not shout out to my ex I do love shout out to my ex And it was such a moment in time And it was a great campaign Number one for ages Really defined us as a girl group But power today is what I'm vibing Do you remember that viral wave you did? Viral wave? Didn't you do a viral wave when you were singing that song? oh yeah but that wasn't real was it it was edited yeah it was edited but how good would that have been if it was real that would have been so sick wouldn't it you're singing that would have been unreal never been in the same room since the breakup but that would have been iconic yeah very weird you're the greatest company ever thank you so much thank you you're amazing love that Wasn't expecting to cry.

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