ROB RINDER: I DIDN'T FIT IN WITH MY FAMILY

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2:06Hello everyone, my name is Jamie Lane and this is Great Company.

2:14Well. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome one, welcome all, welcome owls. Wow, you have gone straight in there with that. I've gone straight in there. You have gone, no, no, hang on a second. Do you want to warm up? Well, I don't need to warm up anything, but the only reason you have mentioned the owls is because you're about to what? I was about to hoot. Hoot. Okay. Hoot. Look, before, right, let's go into it first before we even go into this. Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang, and I'm the host of Great Company. And I'm Jemima, and I produce Great Company. Yes, you do. Welcome to the show. Jemima, on one of the last episodes, spoke about the fact that she wanted to call our listeners OWLS, which stands for?

2:57Original Wonderful Listeners. Correct. So I've been looking in the inbox of Great Company Podcast, which is on Instagram, and we keep getting pictures of owls. Do we? Little tiny ones. A picture of an owl at the top. People keep sending in little owls. So sweet. So somehow our listeners have become owls. It's so sweet. Do you not think that's just lovely? Hi, owls. But I want to change the O because the O is original wonderful listeners, and I would like everyone to be included. So if you've just found this podcast, you too can be an owl. And I think we should workshop the O. I was thinking our wonderful listeners.

3:37Like that? Simple. Or any other O's? Organic. Organic wonderful listeners. Yeah. Original. No, we've done that one. That was the beginning. Original? What about original?

3:54When's that going to get out? Oh, I know. Don't do it again I'm going to do that to you later today I'm going to do it to you later as well And I tell you what Outcast Outcast, wonderful listeners Outlawed Original Original Okay Who have we got on today? Wait, just before we go into that We are leaning into this idea of Our listeners being called ours Yeah Some people may find that really awful Some people may like that So if you do enjoy the fact that perhaps you were called an owl, let us know in our direct messages on Instagram. Okay, very exciting. Today's guest is a big one. Oh, yes. And he's a big one for many reasons.

4:40First family member we've had on the show. Lots of people have, I've been mistaken for this person. Lots of people think he's a long lost relative. Today's episode, we have Rob Rinder. Many people may know him as Judge Rinder from the ITV show that ran for many years where he was a barrister. Rob is a really interesting guy. One of the most well-read individuals I know. He reads so many books. He's highly intelligent. He studied law. He obviously became a lawyer. He does a lot of television. And he's just always been... Like a father to you? No, he's just always been very kind to me. Always been kind, always been thoughtful, always been very welcoming.

5:23How long have people been saying you look like him? Has that been like a long time thing? Yeah, I think it was when I shaved my head for the first time. And do you think you look the same? Yes, I think we do. Do you? I think if I, especially when I have a shaved head, we look similar. That's interesting. I think people never see their own lookalikes. I'm very excited for today. This has been a long time coming. I'm interested today, see what happens. I want to know if he'll go deep. What I find with very seasoned television people is they find ways of not going deep. He's also a barrister. So he's very good at...

5:57Very good at talking. Very good at talking. Are you ready for this? I'm very excited for this one. Also, before we start the episode, Jemima, I do want to ask our listeners a favour. That if they can follow or subscribe to this podcast, it would mean so much. It takes one second of your time. and actually so many of you who listen to this podcast actually haven't subscribed already. It means a huge amount. All right. I know, it's true though. Podcast police over there. It does, it means... If you're listening and not subscribing, you can't listen anymore. If you subscribe, it means we can make a better show, so many different things.

6:32So if you can please do that, that will make the world of difference. Okay, I'll stop asking for this episode. Are we ready for it? Yeah. Okay, here we go. Please welcome... Hoot, hoot, hoot, hoot. Absolutely not. Please, welcome to the podcast, Rob Rinder on Great Company. I'm with Rob Rinder and allegedly I'm good company. Who says that about themselves? Apparently I'm supposed to. I'm great company. It's the type of thing you might put on some ropey website, dating website. What's it called, Raya? The big thing for this one, right, is I think you're going to struggle in this episode because you're a great interviewer.

7:13And whenever I interview people who are great interviewers and do it as their job, which you do, because I was running this morning on my running machine and you were on my TV right there with Ranveer, who is lovely. And with interviewers, you find it hard to be interviewed. I think that's true. Because you're used to be interviewing. Well, I don't think it's that I'm an interviewer that's going to cause you a problem. It's that I spent years, you know, as a barrister. And most importantly, I'm not desperately interested in me. And so when people ask me about my world, I tend to, as you will have no doubt noticed and very thoughtfully and strategically throat cleared in that way, deflect.

7:49So if I didn't want to answer the question, I'll change the question. And then generally speaking, we'll try and get us to a place where in a cul-de-sac, we're actually talking about you instead. But that's just my general discomfort about talking about me. But why? Why do you not find it kind of? Because you are so interesting. you really are the things that you've done I know you but you are just lean into it for a second here we go lean into it you are so interesting the life that you've led the people that you've met the jobs that you've done the things that you have learned and studied I spoke to I think it was Alan Carr you're friendly with Alan Carr you read a book a week pretty much I used to yeah so you also your knowledge of everything from the arts to the history to the law to politics, whatever it is, is so vast.

8:41And I'm really buttering you up. But how do you feel when you sit across tables, usually at television meetings, where people give you compliments of that kind? Is there no part of your body? Yeah, I seize up. Right, exactly. It's like you're looking for protruding parts of your body left to cringe it. You know, you're so clever. And immediately what springs to mind is the people that are cleverer than you. And there's just a sense of just that endearing spiritual cringe. I go, oh, aren't you marvellous? And frankly, anybody who doesn't have that intuitive impulse at that point of people listing how great they are is likely to be aproblematic and be certainly no friend of mine.

9:23Okay. You're a dick. Thank you. That's better. Don't we? Oh, that's so reliable. Do you like that? Oh, fantastic. You're a big dick. This could have stuck on dick. There you are. I don't know It's so much more comfortable Does that make you feel better? Yeah Well I tell you what Your show with Ryland We had Ryland on I love it Do you know what he said He spoke about what a real friend is And he was describing you As how you are just a true friend And it was really You should listen to it It was amazing what he said about you It makes me smile Well because real friendship is isn't it It's not the people who be there In the middle of the night I mean the emergency services Will do that for you And it's usually someone Usually rather toxic Who'll crowbar themselves Into your emotional drama Be wary It's a bit like the godfather, you know, the person who comes first to your tragedy is often problematic.

10:10It's when things go really well. Who can you telephone that's going to sit alongside you and celebrate with unfettered joy? That's who your mates are, right? And he said that. And what's the matter? You've got your amazing hotels, which is coming out, which we saw each other. Oh, my God. This is such a story. We've got to tell people this story. Can we tell the story? I can't say where it is, actually, because the series has been... It's in a location somewhere in the world. Yeah, it's where there's lots of parties and clubs and rhymes with eletha. I mean, for fuck's sake, I used to keep state secrets.

10:44It's so funny. Television gets so nervous around this sort of stuff. I know, it doesn't matter. Whereas there's sort of seven meetings with, you know, the clandestine service, and they'll be infinitely less worried. This is out in August, but this is out in September. Well, yeah, okay, it's Ibiza. Amazing hotels, and you've got to watch it. Okay, anyway, so we... Beautiful hotel. So I actually got married in Ibiza and had a wonderful wedding. And although the marriage didn't last, Ibiza was very much our special place. Anyway, through a variety of extraordinary reasons, which won't mean much perhaps to lots of listeners, but much like a Noel Coward play, Private Lives, I discovered that I was going to be filming there completely, genuinely coincidentally at the same time as my ex-husband was going to be holidaying there with his new partner.

11:31He's not that new. They've been together for about five years. But we don't socialise and hadn't really met each other. It just happens I was going to be there serving the cocktails on telly whilst my ex-husband was there. So inevitably, you're going to work out for that moment and practice your chat. I was with my best friend who, thank goodness, manages me. So we hadn't prepared what to say, but she could intervene and pull me away. I don't do very well with First Encounter. I'm a lot. You've met me, right? We've got, I mean, we've just scratched the surface. I know, it's great. So there was me finally bumping into my ex-husband.

12:07It was like a moment and he was very nice and we were chatting, but it's self-evidently the nuclear powered orcs. What do you talk about, you know, when you've sort of got married up the road and, you know, history behind one another. And then there's this partner there who I've only superficially met before, who also, I must emphasize, is very lovely. But, you know, of course, you'd be lying if you weren't standing there trying not to breathe out. And there I was having a perfectly nice chat. And out of nowhere came this charming voice going, oh, hi. Gosh, my old friend. All the various ways that you introduce yourself in a way that immediately makes me sort of react in a way that is he being disingenuous or does he actually like me?

12:50but I think you are yeah I'm so you know you're real no it takes a lot of time for me to be satisfied that you're real yeah because you know you are it turns out but you know lots of people with that there's an air of there can be an air especially in the industry there can be an air of sort of fakeness to it in a way because it's like say the fucking least I've seen way more sociopathy in you know the world that we this inhabits than I have you know sitting across tables from people in Belmarsh I mean you know it's people sort of invent personas when it's bullshit. But I'm standing with my ex-husband and then you come along with your exquisite wife who I have to say, because I do love women, purely from a safe object.

13:31Yes, but I want to safely objectify them and decorate them. You want to do all sorts of appalling things. I can't imagine how squalid your mind is or how brave, frankly, you'd have to be to do it. But so I was with my friend who's very much in that category, standing know, being cool and casual. And then you come over and I say, oh, this is my wife and this is my ex-husband. And you thought that I was taking the piss. I thought you were joking. Yeah. It was like my first encounter. And then, because obviously it looks cool because he's, I think probably plugged into kind of cool culture. And I had, you know, Radio One DJ, who's like my bestie, hanging there with your really hot wife.

14:07She was looking very hot. She was decorating the whole thing. So it just is important that encounter. It would be a lie if you didn't want to say you wanted to look slightly six-packy and also a little bit connected and quite rich and you delivered that for me so i'm grateful

14:24benedict cumerbatch was your he married us married you that is a flex not really that is a it's a flex if you get like benedict cumerbatch who's um in the marvel movies as Doctor Strange and you hire him and you've got fuck loads of money. Your dad happens to be an Uzbek oligarch, in which case it's a flex. If he's been your mate since the age of 17, it's a mate, isn't it? I mean, and you would have asked him regardless of the fact that he was famous. But it is true that I gave up acting after seeing him act. That's true. But give me the story. I want to hear this. So I'd given up acting because I'd, when I say I wasn't bright at school, I was very average until I got to six from college.

15:06And there was a teacher there who totally changed my life. Simply by, she just said something like, you're clever, aren't you? And it never occurred to me. And it really was as banal as that. And from there it was like a switch went on, truly. And I became completely absorbed in everything and anything academic, catching up for lost time in everything. Right. So I was very much sort of thinking of perhaps a career in law, but certainly was very interested in academic things and, you know, took university very seriously and got a first. But I thought, well, I'd go and actually I got a triple first, but I don't think you should hide any lights under any bushels about that sort of thing.

15:56But I thought first day I'd have a go at acting because I'd had an okay time at the National Youth Theatre. I'd done the summer course, which I have to do. The next year I did Julius Caesar. And it's a big deal getting that. Chiwetel Ejiofor was in it. I mean, you know. Wow. Yeah, he was Julius Caesar. He doesn't seem to remember me whenever I see him. It's like a rather embarrassing ex-lover. sort of looks at me like my first driving examiner who stopped halfway around the course and asked whether I was trying to kill us both. That sort of parent said, hi, Chua Tell, did you remember? Nothing.

16:31Anyway, I'm sure he remembers me fondly. I was Lucius in that. But I sort of gave up after that. I just didn't think it was very good. But you saw Benedict, you saw him. I saw him at university. He read, well, I read the part first and I thought, well, it went rather well and I could feel, because you can tell the director thought, well, that's quite good. Not bad, not bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Hello, Julia Martinez, director. And then, I don't know who it was, I heard Benedict read it. And it was just like, different. And it's more than different. It's the difference between you, I wouldn't have been able to articulate what it was then, but I know what it is now.

17:09It's that sense where you know that you'll never achieve that. It's the type of talent that is the difference between becoming an artist and being one. And what great actors can do, and he, I really believe, has, and so few do, is he has this gift, it's what it is, in the way that great musicians, Mozart and others, can play from when they're little, to physically inhabit the body of a character from an energy point, from a voice, from the way that a chin might move in a scene. And that's the stuff that is just different from the type of thing I could do, which was mimicry, which would have resulted, given how good I am at networking and a fairly average part in the wall pack and from time to time, you know, having a speaking bit on casualty.

18:04But I never would have, as they say with Nail and I, played the Dane. So you saw it and you were just like, that is... Yeah, fuck it. I mean, look at that. But with love. Yeah, of course. Because, I mean, really with love. That kind of star quality, does it exist outside of arts, do you think? Oh, that's a good question. You mean, are there people with... So we can see that in actors. Sure. But does that exist in teachers? Of course. Well, what you're talking about, and God, I love digging deep into academic things. So Max Weber, great philosopher of the early 20th century, what you're talking about is charisma.

18:43And what he was talking about, he split different, what he did was describe different aspects of charisma. And you're talking about people that have some sort of charismatic authority. And we know that that exists in every form, in every, excuse me, in every avenue of life. I mean, I've seen barristers, you know, and I have to emphasize, certainly the ones that don't have the best or stellar academic backgrounds, when I started at the bar, and actually still the case. Now that they're still around, it's not the case that you can become a barrister without having gone to university, but you could when I started.

19:19And all of the leading advocates of their generation were in my chambers and they prosecuted and defended in the highest, most important trials of their day. And there are at least two of them who could stand up on their hind legs and talk to you about soap and give you goosebumps. Get out of here. Absolutely. They just had the capacity to still the molecules of the room in a way that made you absolutely want to believe them. We know that it exists in politics. And of course, somebody with great and limitless charismatic authority can deploy that power with real danger. We know it exists in teachers because we've had those experiences.

20:06but it's where it also is allied with a degree of passion and authenticity that's when the magic happens do you think um because of your acting because your intelligence that's what made you perfect for law being a performance as a lawyer being a performance yeah it's not a performance because a jury can tell yeah you sat on a jury no no i was asked to once and i couldn't because I've taken my A-levels. So I got out of it. Yeah, that's fair. But there is a performance to it. Of course there is. To a degree. To a degree, because you're delivering something and the way that you would be an amazing cross-examiner, as we said before, you've got to be because you're quick, you're smart, you're witty.

20:50And wit can charm anyone in a certain way, surely. To a degree. And there's so much to say here, but I'll be quick, I hope. The system of the bar as you learn from people who are more experienced than you. So yeah, it takes a lot of work. I mean, it's not just a question of cross-examining somebody. You may make somebody look dishonest, but ultimately you're not making that determination. What you're doing is helping the jury come to determination. And when you do a speech, if you're acting, let's say, there's only one element of the job you might do as a barrister. If you're doing some great performance, you know, the jury eventually are not going to switch off and give you their undivided indifference.

21:27They're going to know you're acting. And it's the evidence that makes a difference. And the last thing I'll say about that is when I started, the court craft was important and much more important than it is today because, you know, eyewitnesses mattered. Circumstantial evidence was extremely important. Nowadays, let's say murder charts, by the time you're in court, really the significant evidence against most people is cell site analysis. In other words, where your telephone was, what Google searches you might have done, DNA, etc. And so juries are looking at a complex raft of scientific material to come to determination.

22:07So it doesn't matter. I put it to you. Who gives a shit if your phone was hitting that mast? It's not exactly the most exciting thing in the world. But two questions here. Firstly, do you miss it? No, because I got very, very mentally unwell by the time I left the bar. Did you? I did not know this. Anxiety, depression? Well, I have to be careful about using the word depression because it's a thing. And I'm, you know, we're casual, too casual about saying I was depressed without... Burnt out? Yeah, burnt out is a better way of putting it. But we have to be careful about using the word depression because...

22:50Why? Because I've known people with depression, clinical or otherwise, and it is a serious, extremely dangerous, life -changing, life-risking diagnosis to have. impossible to describe or share but a malignancy of the mind touching the limitless hopeless abyss of human existence and to be shrouded in it impossible to share but truly potentially lethal and so if you're not there to casually deploy i was depressed when you were sad or the very helpful language that you just used, which was burnt out, is a more accurate way of describing it. And that can result, in my case, it wasn't so much depression as depletion.

23:50I had enough. Do you know what's so funny is that I've had burnout. And I agree with you. Things are flippantly thrown around. Oh, depressed, anxiety, burnout. I have a tattoo on my arm. and it's a hebrew word simcha which means joy um and it's in fact there's two one is tikkun olam which means to be a repairer of the world which is everybody's duty small or big however you go about doing that and whatever encounter but the other is joy and uh i really hear that and understand what that feels like you know in my case i just was too young i was 21 and a barrister and had had some luck and success early on.

24:30So I was doing very serious trials. And I'd also believed and continued, by the way, to believe in the system, standing between the individual and the state and dealing with increasingly difficult, complex cases, often with some success. We're talking about murder trials, terrorist cases, and so on. And, you know, I mean, give an example of one of the cases I was involved in. I dealt with a very high profile gang case. And it was a case where a kid had got involved in a gang, a very serious gang. And people don't really understand the extent and dangerousness of gang violence in our country, and especially in the Midlands.

25:13But he'd got bound up in this group. Guns were found in his house. And he was, if he pleaded guilty, he would have served a minimum of five to eight years. But he had special educational need. The guns were actually found in his mum's room. And what he, fast forward, wanted to say was, I kept them there because somebody in my family, I have to be careful about how I describe this, by the way, had pressured me to put them there. So he wanted to argue the case of duress. By the way, in laws, cases called, if any lawyers out there are versus Z, this defence would no longer be available, but it was then.

25:49And he effectively said, my life was at risk if I didn't keep the guns. Right. Now, here's his problem. This is an 18-year-old. He has to name the source of the threat. Problem is with this particular gang is that they are so threatening and violent that people who have given evidence against them in the past or even mentioned them, certainly given evidence against them, given lifetime anonymity and witness protection, in some instances moved out of the country. Yeah. So I dealt subsequently with a case, very famous one, where participating informants, in other words, gang members had given evidence against my client and others.

26:29And we weren't even allowed to, well, I was allowed to see the faces of the informants, but the defendants were in the dock. They didn't know the names of the people giving evidence against them. And what's more, they could only hear what was being said through voice distortion equipment going to the dock. And we were specifically injunct, in other words, prevented as lawyers from saying anything to our clients that might reveal their identity. That's how dangerous, right? So we have this kid who's 18, special educational need, who only had the guns there because he was under pressure. Anyway, we run the case and he doesn't have an appropriate adult.

27:05He has his lovely mum who I'm still friends with. And we persuade him to do the right thing, to tell the truth. And as a lawyer, it's a rather easy case to run because you don't really dispute any of things prosecution have to say. You call the officer in the case and you ask about the gangs, how lethal they are, and they'll agree with you. In other words, the evidence isn't really going to be in dispute and conflict what's really being said. But I have a young man who with different parents, let's come back to privilege, by the way, who perhaps with access to different things may have had a different life.

27:43He certainly wasn't deprived of the most important privilege, this unconditional love that we were referring to. But nevertheless, he gave evidence. And I must emphasize, you can't rehearse witnesses in our country. It's not like America. You can tell people what to say. It's a very gray line where you can prepare people but not put words in their mouth. And he did very well. And he decided to name the gang, but not individuals. And he was moving and persuasive in his evidence. And I gave a speech to the jury, having persuaded him that this was the right thing to do. With some difficulty and alongside his mom.

28:20And he was quitted. It was a good moment. Rightly so. It was Tuesday afternoon. And by the way, at this stage, I was probably about 26 or so um i was on my way to two chambers i think on a friday morning where i got a call from his mom to say he'd been shot dead outside of his house and i spoke at his funeral so that's in just one instance of the type of work that i encountered and then i would go and And after that, I ended up writing a book and ended up prosecuting a case abroad in international cases. My job, you must remember, was to remove bits of the Jenga game, big cases the prosecution had built, pull bits out, right?

29:06Ostensibly to make sure the Crown were doing their job, but also to get my clients off. That's the job, to do that fearlessly. It's very important because if a state is going to put people in prison, they have to do it to the highest possible stand. But eventually when I came to prosecute a case and build it alongside police officers abroad, I came back from that experience to go and represent, I think he was the largest human trafficker in Europe at the time. And I woke up and I was going to Croydon every day and I felt completely and utterly trapped. I didn't want to do it anymore. I still believed that there was a value and purpose to the job, but I was completely and utterly spent.

29:45And I think our lives are little increments of emotional capital. We don't have to believe it's all perfect all the time. But you have to retain the possibility, let's say, that this little bank of yours might at some point be replenished, even if not today. And that felt impossible. So I was lost. That's an amazing story. My God, my God. I think I've shared it with you. Do you know what, Rob? And also in law, you see this sort of dirty underbelly of society. And you see everything in lots of ways. And it's a lot to handle. And you so beautifully spoke about that. I think that would affect anyone in many ways.

30:30You mentioned that your dad has dementia. He's very young as well. All of my grandparents, apart from one who was a survivor, lived into their late 90s. So it's particularly difficult. I can imagine it is. And I don't know. Yeah, I think that when you care about your family so much and something like that, you go through. And I can imagine, Rob, you're probably a bit like me. We'd like to have control over things. And when you can't have control over something, especially with someone's health, it's probably pretty hard, right? Yeah, it's much easier for me to be objective when it comes to my dad, because I've always been like that.

31:15I think if it were my mom, not having that control would be a much more challenging emotional issue. but most importantly my dad went on to he always did very well he always married brilliantly thank God I mean his wives the ones that we know about and the children the ones that we know about I mean because he was a total womanizer in every respect and this is not in the least bit libelous in my dad's case he's quite a brilliant man he would have been a sublime history lecturer at a sort of fifth rate university somewhere trying to shag the students when it was lawful and you know I wouldn't mind in the least bit me saying that so he married my mum and then they were young 17 I'm divorced in the early 20s think about that for a second you see 20 year olds around you right I mean most of whom I love but let's say they married when they were 17 they were engaged I say young 20 but I was doing trials when I was 21 yeah but it's different to hold you grow and change as an individual of course I mean they grew I mean the first time I saw them together really meaningfully in the same room as when I was graduated.

32:22And the idea of them being alongside one another was so kind of culturally absurd. It would be so many reference points. And mine are all from the 90s. But I'm trying to think of it would be as if Princess Margaret had married Danny Dyer. You're like, what's going on? How on earth did the two of you mate? They must have done at some point, at least twice, because my brother appeared. But then And my dad went on to marry his second wife, who was wonderful. I mean, all these people are at my wedding. That didn't go so well, but they were all at my wedding. And he had two other children, my brother and sister.

33:02And again, coming back to the question about my dad with dementia now, what's so wonderful is because, again, he married these women with such rich and deep emotional range and kindness. That's the connective tissue between both of them. and to say if there are any else if there is anybody else out there that might be genetically related he was a bit like a sprinkler so it's perfectly possible do get in touch there's no money available but you know i'd love to meet you without davina mccall being involved um however we really love each other so what's been beautiful really beautiful is that you know i'm aware of a lot of cases where this happens to a family, especially if somebody like me is not able to be there too often and somebody is perhaps doing disproportionately more.

33:52So my uncle is there all the time and my auntie. One brother does more than the rest of us, for example. And because we love one another and share the same values and have been brought up in homes by mums with such kindness, there's never a sense of resentment. There's only a sense of support. And you don't really come to find that until you face a challenge like that, that test of what your siblings are there for and how wonderful and special they can be. And if you can manage something like this with that degree of kindness, mindfulness, and emotional generosity as I think we have and humour.

34:32It really, however challenging a relationship with your brother or sister might be in a superficial way, it really is the most articulate expressions of what having a sibling can be at its best. That's so beautifully put. That really is, Rob. Just, I'm going to be honest with you, it feels like you find it hard to almost be vulnerable about it though. It's almost like you suddenly lock up. So I... Where are you getting that from? looking at my body what you do is you become I can see you becoming emotional and look I don't need you to be emotional I don't care about that just no I'll get to that bit when you ask me a question on a list about what makes me cry or something I read ahead don't worry I'll do that for you I know it's good for ratings I'll be there I don't want that it's fine no but I do I do this for a living do you know what I mean I have to cross examine people I told you it was going to be hard but I once made a police officer pass out you know I'd stop and pause for a second You can spend hours moving people's water in order to get them to cry in front of juries.

35:31I need to get into all this. You're way out of your depth. I know. But I will do it for you. I don't. But it has to be fucking real. Otherwise, your audience will tell. I agree. I know. And I want that to. I want it to be real. What I'm struggling for is for it not to be bullshit. So my body will go into this thing. Because I need to. What I'm physically doing here is exploring two things. One, am I communicating with you and the listener, I suppose. I'm thinking from the ego point of view, in a way that adequately and accurately reflects what I'm trying to say. And is it emotionally real? And, you know, I can't see it moving my body in that way because I'm not sure.

36:07So when you ask me about my dad, for instance, I think what you're evincing in me in this very physical expression is all of the variety of confusions and complexities which are impossible to describe. You know, ultimately, I, of course, love the man. But, and whilst I was never under any doubt, or in any doubt, rather, excuse me, that he loved me and is limitlessly proud of me. It's not like we had a relationship growing up because we had, frankly, nothing in common. My brother, on the other hand, I mean, they had our family religion. And I don't mean Judaism. You know, I mean Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.

36:47which is people you know and you didn't and you didn't connect with that I couldn't have given a fuck I mean I collected panini football stickers yeah because we used to do that at school yeah in the books right yeah and I've written about this and if you've heard it before I don't care but it is because it's true and it's important I used to collect them in order of attractiveness so I had a whole book of Jan Molby's because he played for Liverpool he was really he's aged rather disappointingly to be honest it's a bit like I always say be careful when you pick a Scandinavian ladies or men they look exquisite, you know, in the spring and then the winter comes.

37:18It's a bit like buying a holiday home in France and then the roof falls off and it's all frantic. Anyway, so I just felt You had a whole sticker book I've met all these, yeah I've met him since I was so disappointing. Never meet your early childhood crush but it was very important I can't convey or express this enough and I don't want to speak on behalf of my brother who I love so much and we've come to adore one another much later in life. I mean, again, we had nothing in common. That happens though, I always think. Yeah, of course. Because you can become friends, you know, especially in our world.

37:54I mean, it's impossible to overstate how little my brother and I shared growing up. Really? Just nothing? I mean, he was, he played football at a very high standard and rugby for the county. And I mean, can you imagine me? This is not different. I don't, you know, people at school think, God, Rob, you've really changed. You know, I arrived at school, which is a state school, but a sort of fairly strict grammar one, which is a sort of academic powerhouse now. It wasn't when I went. It was very sporty and stuff. And I just thought, what on earth is going on? They gave me a rugby ball by genetic virtue.

38:29I couldn't catch the fucking thing if it had glue on it. It's a joke. I think it comes from chorus line, you know. This is really important. Tottenham in our family, for the men in our family. Was religion. Yes, but it's more than religion. And that's why I understand it and love it to some extent now, but certainly understand its value and its sensual importance in families. And I'm not going to say particularly in working class families, but where perhaps certain language is off the table, conversations are impossible and masculine connection, forget about it. Tottenham Hotspur can become everything in that moment.

39:07And football can. So I was taken at about three years old. That's well put, Robert. Do you know what? I just want to, just on that, that is so interesting. It's the connector of something. And you're so right. When conversation like that is all, there's that. And that's why I always try and figure out, because I don't really, I love watching England. I like supporting that. I don't have a Premier League team or a local team that I support. And I always wondered why that was. And it's because my family didn't really have that. But if your family has that, that's a real connector. I tell you one when I tell you when Ozzy Ardilis and Ricky Vila were the first foreign signings.

39:43We have that all the time now. My dad went down, drove, I can't remember whether I was in the crowd, but they drove him down to White Hart Lane just to be in the throng. And I went to my first game and memorably fell asleep and woke up at halftime and asked whether it had started yet. Because the whole thing just sort of stank of pie and piss. And I thought, what's going on? You know, but for my brother and for even now, right, you've got some problematic event with your wife. Tottenham. You know, things are perhaps difficult at work. Tottenham. My dad woke up from his first significant, I think he'd had a quite significant incident.

40:27He'd had a stroke. And as he came around, the first thing he said to me was, well, I hope Tottenham beat the Arsenal. Sure. when I came out to my brother again I mean this is not a news story and I always it is for these listeners lots of listeners will not hear it maybe but I just I think sometimes people think I'm being disingenuous and he's an extremely bright person and is you know a banker and smart and very you know politically and emotionally astute as well but nevertheless you know I could see when I came out this sort of curious sense of relief in his face and he went I don't care what you are just as long as you're not Arsenal yeah that was the fear I mean he didn't wow of course wow yeah

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43:01individual who is driving for success and obviously instilling that within you and your brother. And then you are having this feeling that you are, you know, you're sort of, you're questioning your sexuality in lots of different ways. And it's a certain time as well. It's the eighties, it's the nineties, it's not as open. You don't have any individuals you can really look up to. That's tough, right? You must have felt imprisoned in a way. Is Is that the right word or wrong? Yeah, I sort of bristle at being in prison because I spend a lot of time in prisons of various varieties. But I suppose spiritually and emotionally, it's very frightening.

43:39And you rightly describe what the 80s and 90s were, well, you know, until very recently. And by the way, it's still true for lots of people who come from communities where being gay is, for want of a better way of describing it, not okay, even dangerous to come out. And that's still, I don't mind using this language. And if you think I'm aware I can pull yourself together, the lived experience of people in communities in our own country as we sit here now. In my case, it wasn't so much the work in class. In fact, my dad was absolutely fine about it. It was much more about, you know, my mum being a single mum, when she became a single mum, from the community we were in.

44:20you know even being divorced was shrouded in shame leaving aside um what being gay meant which was you know a kind of shame which was at such arm's length that people would describe it in whispers right um and so what you do is after a period of time you come to an awareness of this is the thing and you know that you live with a dark and incurable secret that at some point you're going to have to share and the consequence of that secret could be truly catastrophic now i never really worried about that i think i knew that i would be safe and my mom would love me regardless but it wasn't until 2001 that i actually um did come out how old were you then i was already a working barrister i mean 21 but that must have driven you a little bit insane you the way you put it robin is that you have this this impending and i don't want to put words in your mouth but But it feels like this sort of, in your experience, this impending doom that at some point I'm going to have to say this.

45:24But I'm going to delay it until that moment when I have to say it. Yeah, I still know people who are still in the closet now from their parents, even though they're almost certainly likely to be met with love. Because here's the critical element. You don't want to disappoint them. And, you know, your parents, we come back to talking about your parents and you've discovered the immutable human truth about them that they're imperfect. You know, they're shaped by the environment and the parents that they had. And they go on to parent and they have a whole narrative for you. one that's full of love and hopefully is straightforward and easy and one, especially if you've got a mum who's a daughter of a Holocaust survivor, one that's going to be less risky, let's say.

46:11Why, just so I understand naively why it's less risky? Well, I just think, I mean, you know, her father, my grandfather, his four sisters, the youngest was seven, and his brother and his parents were murdered, gassed in Treblinka. you know you know existentially you're a jew and that's a pretty threatening thing and then all of a sudden your son might be gay it's not just about the fact that you have to i'm going to use this language it's very important mourn the loss of the story that you've written for your own son the one where he has a straightforward life where he has children again in 2001 that wasn't a foreseeable element of being gay right but on top of that he's now gay and jewish so he's likely to attract even further risk in every sense.

46:57And that sense of understandable, forgivable disappointment exists for parents. And often that's the case. And what they have to do is to work through that. You're making it very so clear for me to understand. You're so right. I didn't even think of that. Of course, as a parent, all you want is the best for your kids. You want them to be happy and you want to lead this life. And so you're right. You don't want any risk. So if you feel like your child is going to have risk in some sort of places. In everything. In everything. But in the course of not wanting that, what you tend to do is, you can't help it, we all do it.

47:33We write the movie for our marriages, we write the movies for our kids, you know, we cast them and so on and so forth. No, but we try to do that, right? That's what we want to try and do. And then all of a sudden a curveball comes in and you realise, you know, you wanted to cast somebody in it and it hasn't gone in that way. And a parent has a choice at that point either to go with it or not. I imagine you wanted to impress your mum. Your mum was this incredible figure in your life. And so you're then holding that burden because you're worried. And I know a lot of people listening to this, right?

48:09Maybe you're going through a similar scenario or have been. that moment when you go to your mum and you say, I'm gay. How do you pluck up the courage when you are feeling all of these emotions at the same time? And thank God we're also just a clarification. Thank God we're in a moment time now where that is not so... It's less prevalent. But again, you know, be aware that there are communities up and down the country where this is still an impossible conversation. And, you know, there's not a few people, there's a lot of people out there. you know however i am very i care a lot rather that um we talk up how well it mostly goes you need to divest people of the kind of fear of it because by and enlarge in nearly every instance it'll go okay yeah and also your parents have met you and it's not exactly when i you know announced that i was a homosexual that there was some sort of great radical moment of attack of the vapors and a surprise i mean i wondered whether it was you know the moment that at six i was choreographing routines to chain reaction or the fact that I was giving Miss World contestants very serious marks or the ice skating that gave them the clue.

49:17So it wasn't sort of, good God, do you know what I mean? I mean, but nevertheless, however, it was still a surprise because, you know, I'd lie, I had had girlfriends. Had you? Of course. And here's the thing, I really desperately wanted to be straight. It was very important to me. I wanted to have a family that was off the table back then. I... Can I just want to cut in there because I just really want to understand that. Sure. When you say you're desperate to be straight. Was. Was, sorry, I was desperate to be straight. Not now. No, not now. But that is, again, naively speaking, and please correct me, that's like sort of saying, oh, I really want to like lettuce, but that's just, was it because you just, you found it impossible to accept it?

50:02Well, because being gay was terrifying. Gosh, you find. Imagine that. You growing up, it was, you know, a guaranteed death sentence. It's how it was projected in the media. It was not just cloaked in shame, but people openly talked about being gay and paedophilia in the same breath. It was to be sort of ostracized and othered, dehumanized. And this is in historical reaching distance of my own childhood. It was to be met with perfectly tolerable homophobia in newspapers. The only representation that you'd see would be like Colin and Barry in EastEnders. Or Stephen. No books in my house, it's all television.

50:46Stephen and Bart in Dynasty. And a gay kiss was presented as something dirty, furtive and dangerous. So bad. I mean, though he's apologized for it now, and I must emphasize, not only has he evolved on this but actually he's very supportive you know Piers Morgan one of the things that he apologizes for is when he wrote that column about the gay kiss in EastEnders and talking about how repulsive it was I must emphasize I really but that's where we were yeah that's the time right and so of course you'd want to be straight he wants to have this you know and because of the life as you come back to me being an actor right part of the reason I wasn't an actor which we're leaving aside the absence of talent, which you rightly identified to say the least, was that, you know, becoming a barrister, this is only partly, I suppose, one aspect of it.

51:38But I think I became quite academic and eventually decided to become a barrister, as I say, in part, because I thought it would kind of cushion the blow. Wow. Yeah. I mean, because being a gay actor or a gay writer or a gay painter to a, you know, working class, you never really leave that no matter how much money you make, really. mum from the community we came from. There was a part of me, I now suspect, that decided to become a professional because, yeah, he is gay, but at least he's a barrister or a doctor or so forth. And there are lots of instances of that in the past. People never came out, you know, sort of hyper-masculine or would go and do sort of, they called him Crazy Jack, didn't they?

52:24Wow. Would go and do sort of hyper-acts of dangerous heroism in order to cushion the blur or to hide what they were doing. It's a common element. I do not know that.

52:38Okay, here we go. Here's another insult for you. You're a failed actor. That's true. There you go. Yeah. Not really. When I tried, I was. But this is what's interesting about that. You went into acting and from what I read and found out is that you went and did it and you really loved it, but you realised you weren't as good as your peers. And so there you thought, well, they're better than me, so I'm not going to do it. Is that right? Sort of partially right. I got into National Youth Theatre quite young. And I went to, I'm from the type of background where, you know, being an actor wasn't exactly an aspirational job.

53:16And it wasn't the thing that your parents were delighted by. Explain that to me. What do you mean? Well, I come from a, despite the fact that, you know, I use this a lot, but I hope it means something to your listeners. Hello out there. Read the Mitfords. I sound like I've been mugged by one. You're like the voice of the queen. This is not real. I mean, my voice is an artifice. It's a complete fiction. I grew up, you know, around the corner from Amy Winehouse and in a blended, by blended I mean class and ethnically blended community, went to the same school. But my dad was a taxi driver and they all sound white winky.

53:51That's how they all sound. High winky, by the way. White foxy. That's how I grew up. And then at the age of three, and it's no offense to them, although it sounds like a deliberate one, I sort of rather felt that I'd spiritually, intellectually and culturally outgrown them and had enough. So I invented this. People, I think, feel slight discomfort when you talk about parents in any way that's not exactly unkind. You know, I think it's important to be honest. When I grew up, I wasn't surrounded by people who I had an intuitive sense at that time of respect for. it wasn't the sort of idea that you see your teachers at school and then you see them like in the supermarket and they're like that's from teacher land I mean these are people who you reach beyond your fingertips to sort of know they're special in some way I mean I think it's being authentic about my early very early childhood I was obviously I've re-remembered this and recurated my memory from being older but I still remember being surrounded by people who I thought I've clearly got nothing in common with any of you.

55:06I'm not even sure you're unrelated. That's early to realise that. I know. They didn't have Jeremy Carl then. It was such a pity. Because I could have been one of those DNA tests looking really disappointed at four going, you are related to your family. Fuck. You're like Stewie from Family Guy. That's what you're like. I can live with that. They just get taken to all these posh houses. You're like Hatfield House and then they take me home. This is fucking absurd. Clearly I live here. You're like this highly intelligent child that believes you've born in the wrong world. You're like, what is going on here?

55:35It's totally genuine. It's not like, I love that it's genuine. I didn't aspire to, I didn't like, I didn't want to be there. And so I invented this voice, you know, then I mean, I remember. Right, when you, right, foxy ear off, right, go give your dad a pen. I'll give you a pen if you got your dad to say this. I remember that. And I go, must I? I go, and then, um, go fuck it. I go, got your dad, got your dad to say. And usually it would be something disgusting. And I went, all right, But do you know what, that's interesting because there's a point, right, which was really upsetting. No, but there's a point which was really upsetting for me, right, which I had in my life.

56:09Yeah. So, and it happened a bit more recently in some ways. I thought my family or my parents were superheroes. Thought they were superheroes, right? And I grew up thinking they were these, they were, everything they said was right and everything they did was right. And then when I got to a certain age, I realized, oh, they're not right. And they're guessing. and that made me upset because it made me realise that I'd pulled back this curtain and I thought I was going to open a door to the life and I was going to walk through it and everything was going to be solved there was going to be an answer to everything oh you know you learn how to do these things you learn how to become I don't know a good partner or a parent or you learn how to pay the bills right you don't and that but you realised that quite early in a way that your parents weren't superheroes and that's unique I'm not sure it's unique.

56:58I think it is unique. If you're born gay and you have always had a young instinctive sense that you're perhaps an outsider, you evolve very quickly a kind of emotional language and to that extent, or an emotional music, which I could perhaps always just play. um but perhaps that's not true of my mom who is an extraordinary human being in in every respect but like any parent i mean she can telephone and it's like umbilical whiplash she can sort of ask how i am i'm sure if your parents can do this too and in the most benign kind way and in a way that's replete of full of unconditional love and yet how you can evince a violent homicidal reaction I'm fine because they see through you right no I just didn't walk around with that curse that you had the idea that parents are anything other than human beings doing their very best that's interesting I don't know why I had that you were lucky it's rather nice don't you think Well, I do, but then the later life is quite sort of becoming and you suddenly realise that life is quite tricky.

58:18And life was quite simple and easy and relaxed and that was quite tricky in lots of ways. Well, darling, that's what privilege is, you see. And, you know, I mean, you shouldn't be uncomfortable about that. No, I'm not. I'm not anymore. We shouldn't have been at all. What's wrong with that? That was a lovely thing. I mean, in our case, you know, in our home, there was a lot of dark complexities. And then my mum became a single mum. My grandfather was a Holocaust survivor. We were a family, you know, my cousins, my aunt lived around the corner, as I say, a very working class community, which was aspirational.

58:56So what that meant was it mattered what you did more than anything else. So encouraged to play up the road with the Nigerian family because their family were doctors, right? That gives you a sort of sense of the community we were from, or my mum's sort of aspirational hope for us, let's say. But because there was so much sort of imperfection going on, you know, here you have a survivor, Holocaust survivor grandfather who was explosive and challenging, albeit full of love and humour. And my grandma picking us up from food, excuse me, with food from primary school. My mum going on, I don't care whether we're not allowed to use this language, but truly the most miraculous journey from real, by no stretch of the imagination, poverty, but certainly challenge.

59:42There are times you can play the milk component and so on and so forth or the gas bill. And there she was, having been, you know, not exactly well educated, engaged at 17 to setting up her own business in our sort of semi-detached house in a bedroom and going on to build a very successful publishing business. But that meant that she grew in every conceivable respect alongside my brother and me. So we were kind of evolving with each other. I never grew up with this idea that these grown-ups around me were perfect. Quite the opposite. I wouldn't have been able to articulate it, but I do remember them saying things, be they kind of cultural or the things about the world or some of the jokes they might share.

1:00:29And I can't have been older than five and thought to myself, good God, what arseholes. I don't think that's problematic at all, really. No, I don't think it is. They won't mind. No, I don't think they will mind. But what's interesting is that you had that experience from... I don't know, because this shrinks want you to project very often. But what's interesting with this is that you experienced, and you have experienced sort of all walks. We talk about my privilege, right? I've been very lucky. I've only experienced privilege, right? So I grew up in a house where food was on the table. We didn't have to worry about the milk.

1:01:07We were on holidays, all those sorts of things. You grew up in a different life where you followed this sort of thing of not being privileged. And you've been through every sort of walk of life, in a sense. We have to be so careful, don't we, about what this word privilege means. I mean, you've just described one element of it. And what you described was having things. Well, I mean, financially, right? Well, I had those things. I mean, there was never a moment where I was ever worried we weren't going to be fed. I was never worried that we're going to lose our house. Really important. But the privilege that I have, which is the most powerful, essential one in any family and from any parent, is one I suspect you shared, whether we eventually discovered that our parents are human beings and consequently imperfect was unconditional love.

1:01:52And what that means is, and always does, is that they want you fundamentally to be happy and above all else, they mean it. Yeah. Yeah, right. So, I mean, we could talk what we like about having things, having money, but I know people from the type of privileged backgrounds you're referring to, who are, for want of a better way of describing it, wholly messed up. Yeah. His lives were completely contained within lanes that they felt conscripted into and have been sort of savagely damaged as a result. Okay, eight questions. You ready for this? I'm not because they're difficult. No, they're not. And just think, and quick fire.

1:02:35Here we go. Quick fire. What's a saying or phrase that always makes you smile or cheers you up? It's from Anne of Green Gables. When she says, or rather her teacher tells her, today is a new beginning with no mistakes in it. Much like you said. I like that. is it word or phrase no you can say but anything you want i like that that's very good you see i wanted i was choosing between that and dovka just like so that's the phrase that always cheers me up but dovka is the credo that's the stuff dovka is also a hebrew word but it's yiddish one as well and it means being contrarian i don't mean bullshit contrarian the type when you say the sky is blue says it's green for the sake of it i'm talking about when the world writes your story or seeks to conscript you into a narrative, you have the power to grab back the pen of whatever colour and say, no, no, fuck you.

1:03:33I get to write the chapters of my own novel. Dovker. That's very good. That was question number one. Don't worry, we'll do a quick five for it. Question number two. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? You look like Jamie Lang.

1:03:51I just thought of it. It wasn't even my best compliment. It's not your best. No, I can't like, every time that happens, I mean, even if they say I'm your dad or in some cases your granddad, which has happened a lot. I get that a lot. My uncle's in his seventies and I go, oh, so nice to see you. I remember I was at school with your brother. So I don't think so because he's a pensioner. Fuck off. It happens a lot. But yeah, yeah. You look like Jamie Lange. And I get a little flash of, ooh, every time someone says I might be related to you. Yeah. it's nice because you exist as far as I can gather in quite a few people in the full spectrum of human expression in rather a broad range of people's wank banks so that's good it's true isn't it I mean that's why you sit I don't know I think so number three what scares you most about yourself my capacity to get stuck in the presence of catastrophe what I mean by that is that that becomes a thought and that's the dark trap door to darkness i know what you mean by that when was the last time you cried and why well there's a sort of there's two sorts of crying i said with quick fire i cried i watched the commandant's shadow the other day it's brilliant documentary about the family of um the commandant of auschwitz it's such an important film that made me cry but actually the last time i cried deeply i did the marathon de sabre um so 230 kilometers across the desert carrying around stuff and um it's the most profound experience of my life and there's a moment because you know you're carrying everything and there's nothing in front of you there's nothing behind you all you can think about is getting to the next sort of 10 kilometers in all of the heat and having water then but there's no phone and so you're wholly conscripted into presence, wholly in the breath, just being there.

1:05:49And for me as a person of faith, I was also in the presence. And I remember walking along, the second time actually this happened, and for reasons which are impossible to share unless you've had this, for about a mile or so, my entire body began to sob so deeply. And I hadn't cried like that since my stepsister died when she was 23. And it was the most heavenly emptying and maybe the most moving experience and important of my life. that marathon is it does that to a lot of people it really takes you to your core thank you for sharing that by the way what's something you can't let go of? the answer to that is very superficial actually I've got it with me you've come prepared no I just thought of it I was looking at these questions before I was going to say hope but that felt slightly tacky You're getting out your condom from your wallet.

1:06:59That's just 16. It's much more ridiculous than that. I have here, I never share this. Hardly anybody knows it. What is this? Don't touch it. Okay, I won't. I'm going to know it. Don't touch it. What is it? This is a, okay, see, I can't believe it. It's in my pocket. It's been in my pocket in every single interview, in any TV appearance, and more or less in every court case I've ever done. I use it. So it's in your bag and you're taking it. It looks like, what is that? It's for yours to get fluff off. No, don't. Oh, okay. This was... It looks like a bottom of a shoe. Right. It was a hairbrush. And I found it when I think 2003 it would have been.

1:07:41I was in Sierra Leone. Yeah. Not long after the Civil War. And our job there was to go and encourage communities of young people to learn how to debate as part of the healing process. after the catastrophe that had taken place there. Anyway, long and short of it was the only way of getting from the airport to the mainland, Freetown, was by hydrofoil that would sink or by helicopter that would often crash. I was terrified of flying at the time. And you got off the plane in Freetown and they would give you a stick that was your boarding card. And I was absolutely shitting myself. And when I got onto this helicopter, which had no windows, I found on the floor a hairbrush and we survived.

1:08:25And since then, this hairbrush, which is now in plastic, has been with me at every single important encounter of my life. Everything. So on television, you'll find this in my pocket or somewhere. And often if I don't have pockets, especially on Strictly, you can imagine where it had to go. And that's why I don't want to touch it. What turns you off?

1:08:52cruelty and lack of cultural curiosity it's a very long-winded way of saying snobbishness of any kind it's just a synonym of halitosis of the human soul and country that sorry have you written that down because that is absolutely phenomenal it's actually another journalist that is unbelievable yeah but it's uh yeah yeah you asked me about i cried i actually cried the other day i actually can't share it now because it still makes me cry i am i was just thinking about it because i was touching that um hairbrush i was in my local shop i i from time to time get the privilege of again mindful of the word because it is a good opportunity to work at a homeless kitchen for all people for the unhoused and um you know those encounters are very special and important and i was in a shop a few days ago and um there was somebody who was homeless who came in and um i saw somebody in that shop treat this person with such a lack of humanity understanding or kindness um that um i spoke to the person afterwards but when you touch the face of that willful lack of human connection um that makes me cry that takes my breath away every time which is odd really when you think about the type of work i used to do what turns you on well intellect and a scaffolder who can read proust in original french with a nine inch penis i mean i've never met one but since you ask might be my favorite answer ever what else are you going to say i mean everything else is alive what's your name i mean musical bearings i mean that's the no that was so good conducting as well that turns me on that's i know what you mean with that what do you like most about yourself nothing come on what do i like um my friends great answer bonus one you ready yeah final one okay here we go favorite swear word oh cunt of course cunt why would anybody have any other swear word cunt cunt cunt cunt why i mean there isn't all the other swear words are just kidding They don't count I wish I could use it I wish it were just in common parlance People get terribly upset by it Cunt, cunt, cunt Rob It's been a heaven It's been a heaven Thank you so much for coming on Great Company That was amazing I'm going to give you a hug That was so good What a lovely, lovely fella Did you really like that?

1:11:40Yeah He is so beautiful with his words Incredibly so, right? You can tell he's a barrister thoughtful, provoked again, and Rob won't mind me saying this finds it difficult to go deep sometimes but he's very cerebral like he kind of, he's aware of that I think he does go deep but he's really thinking about the words he's using but there is sometimes a little stopper sometimes there's that little thing like I don't quite want to go there and how amazing at the end that he just pulled that comb out of his pocket and that ziplock bag that's so weird that it was there What did you think being the editor producer on the side?

1:12:17It was very good. There was a moment at the end where it was quite a long recording. And if you see, you can watch these episodes on YouTube. And we have five cameras and three of them. The episode filled up the card. Did it really? Yeah, we had to message you. I said, we've got two minutes left on the card. You did. But we had two other cameras. So if you're watching the YouTube, the last five minutes might just be from two particular, you might notice it's just two angles. Because we ran out of a car. We chatted for so long. He was great. He was amazing. Rob, if you're listening, thank you so much for coming on.

1:12:53I do want to say if you want to get in touch as well, you can via our Instagram at the moment at Great Company Podcast. Send us a message. Let us know what you think of the episode. If you can please subscribe or follow, that would mean the world as well. it makes a huge difference to us and it would be absolutely amazing if you could do that. And please share it with people. Yeah, do. All right, everybody. Listen, we're going to see you next week for another episode of Great Company.

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