RUBY WAX: I DID NOT LOVE MY PARENTS

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2:13Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang and this is Great Company.

2:22Well, hello. Hello. Hello. You always start with a well. Hello. Yeah, you can still pronounce the H. Jemima. Oi. Jemima. Listen up. I used to say Jemima. Jamie. I don't know what I was about to call you then. Lola. Lola, lola. This is Jamie. Jamie. And I'm Jemima. And Jemima. Hey, I'm the host of the show. Welcome back. And Jemima is... The producer. ...of this incredible show and does all of the hard work. It's New Year, 2025. How are you feeling about it? Yeah. Did you think we'd have flying cars by now? In 2025? Yeah. Would I think that when I was younger or last year? When we were younger.

3:02Yeah, maybe. I used to watch The Jetsons, which I didn't like. The what? The Jetsons. What's that? The Jetsons. No, that's The Flintstones. What's The Jetsons? It was a TV show after The Simpsons before Futurama, wasn't it? What? Okay. There was no Fresh Prince. It went... Okay, here we go. You didn't have Sky. No, I didn't. Channel 2. Channel 2. CBBC, Blue Peter, Newsround Straight into Neighbours then Simpsons, then Fresh Prince Wow, what was your favourite Simpsons? Oh, so many I quote Homer a lot when he goes everyone's stupid except me well you know when you're like I'm definitely wrong in this situation everyone in the whole world is stupid except me Hey, we're back obviously we're back with another episode and today's really exciting because we have Ruby Wax on the show Ruby Wax are you excited interviewing an interviewer nerve wracking yeah Ruby Wax for anyone who doesn't know she is a seasoned professional in the interviewing space and world in the kind of 90s and 2000s and 80s maybe she was a huge hit on television interviewing from people from Donald Trump to Don King to OJ Simpson to Madonna it's mad Jim Carrey and her interviewing technique I would say was very much her trying to get people to like her in the interview sounds familiar sounds very familiar but almost flirting i would say and she is incredibly smart she's been diagnosed with bipolar she has moments of depression that she's very open with she's huge in charity as well and she's all around a complete legend yeah she from my take of ruby she's kind of wild and crazy in the most brilliant way and she's about to come on the episode and we're going to chat about loads different things.

4:52I'm very, very excited. I think you guys are going to really hit it off. But also, I like you interviewing an interviewer because I'm also, I just think it's really fascinating, like the mechanics behind how you get someone to open up and get them on your side. So I'm really intrigued because the people that she's interviewed, like OJ Simpson and Donald Trump. She said at OJ Simpson, she said, I know you did it. Yeah. It's mad. Like she asked the wild questions. Yeah, fearlessness. And it's nerve wracking interviewing an interviewer because the interviewer knows what you're doing as techniques in order to make them feel comfortable because they've done it themselves but hopefully she'll be calm and generous and oh there's no way she won't not like you are you ready for this she won't like you she won't not like she won't not like me she won't not not not not like me i don't know well anyway she will like you we are very excited now if you also if you want to get in touch with us you can we have an email which is please do um it's great company at jamper productions at co.uk or you can sign into our DMs.

5:48At Great Company Podcast. That is correct. We want to hear from you, what you think of the show, what you think of Jemima, what you think of myself. You can ask Jemima any questions, right? Yeah. Ask. Yeah. Go on then. Go on then. Go on then. Ask her some questions. Okay. And if you haven't subscribed to the show, please do. You ready for this? I am so ready. Please welcome Ruby Wax to Great Company. Hi, I'm Ruby Wax and I'm on Great Company and I am Great Company.

6:18Did you get a prenup? No. Okay. Think about it. Lots of people were talking about prenups and things like that, but I kind of think, I think this is like if you're going into, if you're committing to this marriage and this relationship, then if it breaks down, then some of the faults are my fault. So maybe then... Oh my God, you're so good. Yeah, that's what I think. Yeah, you're so good. Isn't that the right way to... And your teeth are so white. Yeah, well, thank you very much. I really like you now. Bagel teeth and no prenup. That's it. That's all I need. Ruby, I'm really excited for this because I said this to you before we started.

6:57I'm a huge fan of yours because I think that your interview style is similar to mine in a way where I really want people to like me. And I think this is what your career was like. I think all interviews want to be liked. Otherwise, why would you do it? because maybe people are just interested in other people. Come on, everybody's interested in themselves first and then they want to see if the people like them. Do you think that's it? Yeah, at the bottom of it, it is. I mean, I'm fascinated with people, but if I see a bad vibe like with Trump or with OJ or with Bill Cosby who hated my guts on site, you lose your erection pretty quickly.

7:40You lose your interest in them and you're just trying to survive. You're just trying to stay afloat. So it's better when you see the love in the eyes and then you're really interested because they're interested in you. It's got to be a mutual cha-cha. You are so right. That's exactly it. But do you not see it as a challenge when someone doesn't like you and you have to interview them? Do you not see that as a challenge or you just don't like that? I like to win them over. I like to go from blah, like Carrie Fisher, who kind of has it all, or Jim Carrey says, I've seen this before. And then you see their eyes light up because you're funny.

8:13I mean, that's why people always said, you talk too much. I said, but this is a courtship. That's foreplay. And a lot of times we played in the foreplay because you have to audition for the person you're interviewing. Then they really put out. So you better be funny. Oh, finish your intro. That was my intro. So how do I get you to like me then? Well, I like you on side, so you don't have to work that hard. You can give me some of your candy and you already gave me a bagel. So I'm yours. I'm really cheap. You're that easy? I'm that easy. You're that easy? Uh-huh. Can I ask you, when you interview people, right, and you, because it's sort of separated, right?

8:55So when it's an intimate relationship where you actually know someone and you have to be intimate with them, is that harder for you than when you first meet someone and you have to interview them without knowing them? Because there's no preconception of what you're like. Yeah, it's easier when you don't know them. True, right? Because if you know the answer, your eyes glaze over. In a way, you can't, it's like an actor, if I'm not an actor, but if you have to read a line the second time, you don't buy it. So you see the discovery, you know, if the courtship of Carrie Fisher and I was magical. And then once you know her, I wouldn't, you wouldn't see the excitement.

9:27I mean, the whole thing was about getting her to really love me, not even like. And so we stayed friends for 35 years because that's how good my audition was. I really pulled everything out of the hat. what is the obsession with wanting to be loved by these people because there's no interview unless there's that kind of magic you can you know otherwise you're just churning out the questions and they've heard them all before but if you're really hooked up you ask things out of the you know corner of your mind it's like being in a courtship yeah i get that but there has to be something deep there do you want to just quickly to sort of caveat that it's so strange I know I can ask you anything and you would you would either answer it honestly or say I'm not going to answer that where with some interviews that I'm in and I'm speaking to someone I can see that being cagey with you there is no sort of cage you're you're a very open person well I'd be honest with you yeah you would be I don't see any reason I mean it's not like you'd answer but you'd say why do you ask me that yes are you trying to enhance your career or but I don't have many secrets and the ones that I do have you wouldn't know about so what's the what's the question i want to know though but what there must be something deeper of why you want those people to love you because i saw the interview with trump right yeah again i rewatched well i lost that one yeah but you lost it because um you were sort of nervous going into it no i i always i'm hopeful and you know i watch my makeup artist, you know, do his makeup.

11:00So he was already a red American Indian by the time I hit him. And he had no hair then. He had one strand grown out of his nose, I think. And then she wound it, wound it, wound it like a Mr. Whippy. So when you see somebody's flaws, you know, and you're not taken by their beauty or you're taken by their power, I didn't, I thought he was a real estate guy. I knew we were on a private jet and he had a gold bidet, but otherwise I just thought he was normal guy. So the hatred he had for me was astounding. That took me by surprise. He hated me because he couldn't figure me out. And I became an idiot.

11:34If somebody treats you like an idiot, if I did now, you'd become an idiot. You become what people impose on you. If they're very strong. Otherwise you tell them to fuck off. Why didn't you tell Trump to fuck off? Because I was so scared. He reminded me of everything that scares me. You know, a male coming at me with loathing and thinking I'm an idiot reminds me too much of my dad. And he, you know, I went under with him because I was a kid. So I became a child again and asked him some of the most stupid questions I've ever asked in my life. And my voice went into kind of helium. It was like a trapped rodent.

12:08And then I don't blame him for saying, get her off the plane. Unfortunately, it was at 33 ,000 feet, unfortunately, but it was okay. It made a great show. He said, he said, I'm going to go upstairs. I've got a headache. Yeah. Well, hatred. Where's upstairs in a plane? You tell me. It wasn't a double-decker. There's an interesting moment in it, which is, and the reason I bring up Trump just because of, you know, what's happening in the States and things like that. Let's not bring him up. Let's not bring him up too much. But there was a moment when you, you sort of, and I don't know how to describe this to someone who doesn't sort of look into it more deeply, but you're talking to Trump and there's a moment where you try and catch, you almost catch him in a sentence where you start talking about his type.

12:50You can't date someone and you go, you wouldn't date me. And then you start to feel comfortable because you're almost flirting with him. Except he still hates me. Yeah, he does. So I couldn't go, I couldn't continue. He thought that was really cheap. And if I knew what I know now, I could have hung him. Not that it would matter because it's impossible to hang somebody who, you know, his crassness and his decadence is what makes him win. It's my country that's sick, not him. Well, he's sick, but the fact that they vote for him means they're deeply disturbed. But that was a stupid question. I should have let him say, not laugh when he said he wanted to be the president of the United States, which you don't see.

13:30I laughed. I thought he's a great comedian and didn't realize it was serious. But I should have just kept really calm, really centered and said, tell me about your policies and just flattered him. He would have, you know, he would have cornered himself. But instead, you know, what a dumb question. And of course, that's, you know, that's going to piss him off. Because he's a grandmaster in his mind. You don't ask that question. What do you mean he's a grandmaster? Well, he's, you know, an important figure. He's the next president of the United States in his mind. So you don't ask who you're going to date.

14:03That was a dumb question. Of course, he hated me. What other rooms have you been in where you straight away realized that you haven't... Bill Cosby tried to choke me, meeting me. He put his hands around me and dragged me across the room. That's a big sign. That's a big sign. And then he had an imaginary phone saying, get her off the set, and making me call him Dr. Cosby.

14:27It's crazy. Yeah, it's only a few people. Burt Reynolds didn't like me. I don't know if you know who he is. I know who Burt Reynolds is. Yeah, he hated me, kind of thought I was just a flirtatious little girl. But by the end, you watch A Love Affair. He gets out, you know, that I'm funny. So he starts showing off. When you get them, they show off because they want you to like them. Wow. So it's this game that you can play where you... Jim Carrey was a moment I couldn't get rid of him. But in the beginning, he's rolling his eyes going, how much time do you need? And then he says, she's fun. And then he starts to say, I can do magic.

15:00So in the... It's amazing. In the Dorchester, he says, I can do a magic trick where I pull the tablecloth from under some serious China tea sets, some serious China, like really from the Ming dynasty. And I know he can't do it. So I hid behind the sofa. I know this guy can't do it, but he wants me to like him. So off he goes and destroys the entire room. It's so good. He tries to put it out and it just goes. And you're just enjoying the chaos of it as well. Yeah. And he knows I'm not a regular interviewer going, I don't think you should do that right now. And here's my next question. I'd throw away that script and just play.

15:40And then eventually he won't leave because it's free for all. It's funny, you're right. You talk it like it's a love affair. It is. Typical interview styles where you sit and you ask questions. Yours isn't. Yours is a true love affair. Or it's flirtatious. And there's a moment where you can hear when you do, when the hormones do come on, because the voices start to sound like they're doing the tango. It's not my question, your answer. it really sounds like it's a it's a dance how do you prepare for an interview then you just get everything you can about them and throw it away you explain that more well I get the information so I'm not an idiot you know I can say to Bette Midler I knew you worked in a canning factory canning pineapples and she's so flattered but then I say but I was a greater waitress than you were and I can things too but faster than you could and then she gets she's flattered that I know but she also knows that I tailed it with something saying and I'm better then she explains to me how fast she could do it and I go okay you win because they want to be the popular girl and I'm the handmaiden I get it that's my position yeah but it feels like that it feels like in your own mind you're having sort of this this battle with the person that you're thinking okay do they like me don't they like me okay how are they feeling what is the power situation going on where perhaps someone would just sit there and just take it as it comes and they wouldn't have to have that sort of battle as they're going along.

17:02I'm not really battling. I'm just watching their eyes. It's not really a battle. You watch them soften up from hard to soft. And so it's not a battle. I'm just reading. I'm reading the whole time, which is nice. It's flattering. People like you looking in their eyes. That's almost a little bit intimidating for some reason. I don't know why. No, they do. I'm looking in your eyes. Are you intimidated? No, but I think what I do think is that you're highly intelligent and you understand people's body language. So what I would do then And as I'm thinking, right, I got to sit in a certain way and be a certain way.

17:32Oh, no, I hope you don't do that. No, I don't. Yeah. But there is a way in that. How can you read people so well then? I just can. I'm really, you know, I don't have a lot of things. I can't memorize facts unless I'm really interested. But it dribbles through me. You know, I'm not intelligent with most things, but I can read people. You know, that's why I would have made a great shrink. except I didn't make a great shrink. I got the degree, but then I would go when people were talking to me, I'd go, oh, come on, just cut to the punchline. I know what you did. And you're not allowed to do that.

18:07You have to let them talk for a year. Because you study psychology. Yeah. So what do you mean that you would just cut to the chase? Well, sometimes you can read people and you want to go, this is what I'm getting from you. But you're not allowed to do that as a therapist. You kind of know their defenses. And, you know, you might be wrong. You might be completely wrong, but, you know, it's guesswork. But I'm usually right. If you do say something about somebody, they say, you're right. It's my only talent. P.S. I'm not being arrogant. There is no other talent. I mean, now Alan Rickman taught me how to do comedy, but that took 30 years.

18:47So when you interviewed O.J. Simpson. Yeah, that was a good one. That's a good one. And notoriously, O.J. Simpson got away with murder. Yeah. So what is your take on it? Well, I knew he did. I knew he did, so I was teasing him the whole time and letting him go by Judge Ito's house, who was the judge, and scream asshole out the window. I knew, you know, you just let him hang himself. But I had, unlike Trump, I had a kind of fondness for him too because he has a split personality. I think one part of him doesn't know, and the other part does know. So he's got this kind of, it's a pathology. I think it's called doubling.

19:27Wow, explain that more. One part of the brain knows and the other part doesn't. And it's literally a split. It's not schizophrenia. So he really believes that he didn't do it, but he wanted to be caught. So when I said, did you do it? And he said, don't ask me. And I said, but did you do it? He was kind of, you saw a little smile on his face. He wanted me to nudge him a little bit. I constantly nudged him through the whole interview. You know, he told me about that he was going to be a Scientologist, but Ron Hubbard said, no, he was already at the Alpha State. He didn't have to. Now, come on. Ron Hubbard was a salesman.

20:04He'd say, yeah, you need to go through this many steps to reach whatever nirvana, whatever their ultimate state is. That's how they make money. He said he could win a game just by the power of his thoughts. So we left that in. I mean, that doesn't indicate a healthy mind. He could control people through his psychic energy. He wouldn't have said that if he didn't trust me. He wouldn't have, would he? No. But it's funny how you think OJ was a killer, but you were more intimidated by Trump when you're sitting next to someone who's killed people. That feels... I don't know. I don't know. He was a...

20:47And part of him didn't know, and part of him was quite amusing and charming, whereas Trump was 100 % killer, even though he didn't literally kill anybody. I just thought there was a softness about O.J. that I quite liked. And at the end, you know, because he trusted me so much, at the very end, I said, just open the door and say hello. You know how you do the meat and grain? And he tried to stab me with a banana. I mean, that went on American television. What? At the very end, I open the door and he goes, makes a noise from Psycho and tries to stab me with a banana. That takes great trust. And then the director said, that wasn't, we didn't get it all on camera.

21:27Could you do it again? But I mean, I have a camera crew. He's not going to kill me. And it's a banana. But somebody stole it from the edit suite and it was on American television, on all the news channels. When you're interviewing someone like that and you get a clip in your mind, you going, this is going to be great. I didn't know it was going to be that great because it was about four in the morning. I mean, part of the other thing is I interviewed them over either a week or two days. So I don't know what's good and what's bad. I'm just, you know, like you, I'm just going to keep going until they get exhausted.

21:57Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. I just keep wearing it up. Just keep going. But that's not quite true because with Hugh Hefner, you were given like 10 minutes or an hour or two hours and you lost, then you... Stayed a week. Stayed a week. Yeah, because he really liked me. I didn't see him as a guy who exploited women. He was a teddy bear. You know, he told me about his childhood and why he had this fantasy of Barbie dolls, you know, that he kind of got stuck at 16 and what his upbringing was like. And if somebody's conscious about their, if they're aware, then it's all forgiven. I mean, that's very evolved for me.

22:28If somebody can state this is what I am and I'm aware of it, then I go, oh, that's intelligence. intelligence instead of just off the cuff saying, yeah, this guy's an idiot and they did this to me and this isn't my fault. When they say, you know, this happened in my childhood, so I'm aware why I do this. Also, he's a great PR guy, so he knew what would make him famous. He doesn't buy it. All he does on Friday nights is have his old cronies over and they play, you know, they watch TV. That's his pleasure, not screwing Barbies. And he knew I knew that, so he said, stay for a week. And also I was quite compassionate to the, um, to the bunnies.

23:11You know, I lived with them and we had pillow fights and I liked them. And a lot of them were sent to school by him. You know, he was really into educating them if they wanted to be and he'd promote them. One of them was, you know, 60 years old. She was a bunny, but he gives them jobs. I liked the guy. You have this real sort of sleek, clean empathy or just understanding of people for who they are. You don't sort of judge them for their mishaps or... Or what they do or their PR. No, I'm just looking at what's in front of me. Yeah, you look at the soul. Yeah, I guess so. Does that sound arrogant?

23:42No, it doesn't sound arrogant. It sounds truthful, which I think is really quite great. I'm a big believer in that. I don't really... I did a reality TV show, right? Yeah. I don't know if you saw it. Look, you're blushing. Yeah, well, I am blushing. You're blushing. You've got all pinched. Yeah, yeah. Everybody starts somewhere. Thank you, Ruby. And for many years, I was embarrassed about what I had done because every door I went to was closed. No, not, I think so. And then I thought, well, no, embrace it. I also came from, you know, boarding school and privately educated. So it wasn't a great combination to be reality TV privately educated.

24:25That was not sexy in any way. And so, but I knew what I represent as a person. And so now I look at people as the individuals rather than what they have or haven't done. And I think that's really important. Totally. I mean, one of my ideas, you know, we were talking about podcasts, is I'm really interested from my point of view, the way I analyze in reality stars. I really want to know what they were thinking. Where do they come from? You know, it is the celebrity of now. I'm fascinated just the way I was when they were real movie stars. But we have to acknowledge they don't have a lot of talent.

24:58But that's okay. I just want to know what motivated them and who they are. So that's one of my ideas. I'd be fascinated. So if you were going to ask me a question, what would you ask? Well, you aren't that. You know, you aren't that to me. Really? You're a good interviewer. Yeah. I don't see you as that. But if you really, you know, that's, you're fresh off Married at First Sight, boy, would I be interested. What were you thinking? Who did you come across as? What happened between these two scenes? I would be curious and I want to call it what an older person is trying to know Do you think when you look at someone you know we're talking about OJ and seeing his mind Nothing is as interesting as those people let's be clear I mean that was an A-list of A-lists But they're above celebrity in a weird way They're celebrity which is Well they're either infamous or famous and for the right reasons they didn't just show up one day on an island or eat their young you know they had talent Do you think when you were interviewing, you know, these amazing, I mean, just I was going through the list today with Jemima, the celebrities and the people that you've interviewed is wild.

26:10The A-list of the A-list of the A-list. Do you think they were more open to sharing than people are now? Well, there was no PR. And there was no, you know, there was no TikTok or whatever. So you knew nothing. So somebody comes along and really wants to know about their soul. They're so flattered. Nobody ever asked that before. They're asking, you know, what was your last film? What was it like to play against, I don't know, Liz Taylor? What was it like? You know, they just want to know surface. And you get bored of talking about surface. So somebody suddenly undercuts it and says, you know, as a human, let's take the mask off, you know, with Sharon Stone, you know, what's your, what's your, she said she sees a crease on her knee and it reminds her she hears a clock ticking.

26:53She knows she's got seconds. And so there's, she really wasn't, you know, she wasn't just a beauty. She was inspired. She was intellectual. Pamela Anderson, smart cookie. She understood herself. She knew the a game she was playing, and she was a real sophisticated woman underneath that sensational exterior. So when it left, she's still interesting. You know, she didn't think of herself as that. She just knew it was a commodity. Now that's talent. I find the idea of playing a persona so interesting. Everybody plays a persona. You think? Who's real? Trump, does he play a persona? Yeah. Well, he's ill.

27:37That's a different story. That's a different story. But I like when they take off their mask and they're exhausted. It's tiring, you know, with the mask. So when I let them take it off, they're so relieved. And they think, who wants to know this? And I did. But then do you play a persona? Yeah, of course. I mean, I don't smile this much. And when I get back in the car, I'm kind of nothing. I really have no persona when I'm not talking to somebody. And it depends who I'm talking to. If I'm really interested, then I turn it on. I kind of glow a little bit, you know, I'm excited. But, you know, if I'm just talking to them, unless the bus driver suddenly says something so interesting, then I'll turn it on.

28:18But, you know, you turn on the motor, you turn off the motor. It's like driving a car. But everyone, when they're by themselves, doesn't have a personality, really. No, but if I go to a dinner party, I don't have to be, you know, I don't have to switch it on. Whereas when I was younger, I switched it on no matter who. Big, glowy, kind of American, kind of obnoxious.

28:42Why do you think Trump is ill? If you don't notice it, I can't even tell you. In that interview or afterwards, you've spoken about the fact that he reminds you of your dad. And that's why... That was my dad. That was what he was like. Can you talk to me about your childhood? Well, you know, I wrote about it in my book. I know. I'm not as well as I thought I was. And other books, and that's not all I talk about, but they were torturous. Both of them. And my mother innocently and my dad on purpose. You know, he'd play mind games. He'd keep telling me how rich I was. You know, and he'd take me to the bank and rattle some papers downstairs going, boy, are you rich.

29:21It turned out I wasn't at all. But it kept me at home till I was, you know, in my late 30s. I thought we were really rich. And every time he'd do something vicious, I'd write down a number saying, he owes me this much. He owes me this much. If there was a beating, I charged a lot. Ruby, you do talk about it in your book, and I want to talk about that, but can you explain what you mean by your mum was abusive? No, she was hysterical. You know, so, I mean, I can make the joke that she was on the ceiling with Q-tips. You know, she was never without a sponge. She was hysterical. You know, we don't know why, but it was that Viennese.

30:00You know, you order something off the menu, it sounds like you're declaring war on Europe. I haven't a schwein geschossen, herunter gelassen. That was the voice. So you were always thinking, oh, my God, the Nazis are coming. And they brought the war from Europe into our kitchen. Now, I can't blame it on the war, but he was mean. Oh, boy, are you a sad sack. Who's going to marry you? Oh, my God. Ruby, you're an idiot. It never stopped. So even when I did well, he'd say, I saw you in the Royal Shakespeare Company. Your teeth were so shiny. I can't make that one up. But there's almost humor to it.

30:38Yeah, well, I turned it in, you know, my first book that Carrie Fisher edited, she said, talk about your parents. They're almost as bad as mine are, which is the greatest review you can get. Yeah, they were nuts. I could tell you stories, but that's a whole different thing. Yeah, but tell me stories. Well, then I go into comedy mode. But don't go into comedy mode. Well, I can't stay serious. Why? Because it's too painful? Well, no, I'm not in pain anymore. But if you take out the sting, it's hilarious. You know, we had an air conditioner in the house and my mother wanted to save money. You have to, it's a visual.

31:13Yeah, a visual. It's a visual. And I said, please turn on the air conditioner because I just had surgery on my feet. I couldn't get up. And she said, what's the difference? You open the window, it just escapes. So I said, I'm begging you, I'm dying in here. You know, crickets are sticking to my teeth. So she goes across the room and hits the wall nowhere near the air conditioner button and just goes, like I think that was the air conditioning. Wow, Ruby. Yeah. Well, that's only one. That is a... She got a thing with a broom. She keeps like, I have this too. If I get my mind, it's obsessive thinking.

31:51If I get my mind on something like I need to get anything, it could be anything like a lampshade. Even when I'm talking to you, I'm picturing, I got to get a lampshade. I got to get a lampshade. So she had something about a broom. I needed a broom, but a special kind with the bristles. And then she's here. She goes home to Chicago and she says, did you get the broom? She mentioned it maybe 40 times a day. I said, no, I didn't get the broom. She says, oh, your aunt died. What kind of broom do you think you're getting? I said, whoa, whoa, whoa. Did you just say my aunt died? She said, okay, back the clock up 24 hours.

32:25She's not dead. Now, did you get the boom? You cannot make up my mother's lines.

32:34But you loved your parents, right? No. No? No, I didn't. I do in a primal way, the way an animal does. But I didn't really know who they were. I didn't really know who they were. I'm sure they were charming when they were young, and my mother was the most beautiful woman in Vienna and spoke about nine languages. but um no I don't know who they were and I had nobody to compare notes to because I didn't have brothers and sisters does that make it does that upset you no because when they die you're not really am I the only person who talks like this yeah but I do you know what I cannot tell you how um does it how like freeing this conversation is I said it to you at the beginning I can ask you anything and you just maybe i'm lying i don't know maybe i really love them but i really wasn't upset but i feel like it's impossible my thing i mean if i was another kid and i was really successful and i was a boy maybe we would have a great relationship maybe well you think it's because you were a girl that i think that trump hates women i think my dad did too unless you fuck him you know then sorry can you say that word you can say whatever you want there you go then they're kind of you know meat but he didn't like women that's like i'm almost like a sociopath no he's not a sociopath just narcissistic no narcissistic yeah it's hard because i'm being too um okay no you're not being are you kidding me this is this is jemima is going more please more behind you honestly my thing is okay it doesn't matter who your parents are, your desire.

34:16Did you love your parents? Yeah. I bet you did because you're quite healthy. I was at boarding school from eight years old. Oh, that could screw you up. Yeah, that screwed me up a little bit. Yeah. So I have, what do I have? You know, fear of abandonment, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. And I had this real need. But for me, it was a winning formula because I was thrown into an environment, eight years old, where I had to make friends. So I had to discover what these 12 people that I slept with, these strangers in my room, how they interacted. so I became very good at reading individuals and also making situations entertaining because I saw the humor they were all boys but I knew okay how do I how do I become sort of the alpha in this room I needed then entertain and I was good at sports so that combination was really healthy for me that made you win yeah I was funny too that made you survive but funniness came from standing out because I had five brothers and sisters so I had to be funny and loud and interesting and watch me and watch me because then you were seen.

35:13You were an only child and you didn't feel the love for your parents. So to be seen, you had to become loud. And funny. And funny. Not to them, but to other people. So they'd save me. So I made friends. So I made more and more friends. It was like a human igloo to keep them at bay. But then, Ruby, being funny is a curse. A curse and a blessing. I make a career out of it. But I mean, underneath it, I get to be honest, which I think at a certain age, you better be. Otherwise, you're just a joke machine. And those people really suffer. I want to get into that as well. But just quickly on the parents thing, we have a, there's a natural sort of, you know, natural thing for wanting our parents to love us.

36:01So how do you then accept that your parents, you think, didn't love you? Because that's... Oh, they love me. They were crazy about me. Oh, you didn't love them, sorry. Well, they were obsessed, you know, like you are as a parent. But I think they were disappointed. I wasn't beautiful. I wasn't smart. I wasn't going to be anything. I can see, you know, it's like I could see why Trump thought I was an idiot. You know, if you treat somebody like a fool, you become a fool. I didn't make a lot of sense around them. And I think that because they thought I was not educated, I became uneducated. But you were educated and you were smart.

36:37And you are funny and you are beautiful. So you had all of it. Oh, look at him. And he gave me a bagel. But it's true, Ruby, you are. And I think that sort of negative feedback within you, that's what drives that sort of, I don't know, maybe like the sort of not worthy enough, I suppose. But you are and clearly were all those things. No, I wasn't. I was really stupid. But you studied at Oxford. No, only recently. Yeah, but it doesn't matter recently. and you did psychology and you went to the Royal Shakespeare Company and you did all these. Yeah, but much later in life. It doesn't matter. In the scheme of things, I did really well.

37:15But, you know, when it counts when you're a young kid and you're trying to find your identity, and that's really, you know, where the brain develops. As a young kid, you get your personality and who you are. You know that. And it's early childhood that determines your personality or, you know, it's a driving force. later on it's just metals and it's great but it's very hard to change the brain even though I know about neuroplasticity I know about it and I wouldn't be sitting here if I didn't train my brain I um I heard that I spoke to someone who has studied sort of early childhood and she says your brain grows from the ages of grows from the age of one to four or something like that I'm going to get this wrong yeah it grows a third from four to 28 it grows another third and then And the next time it grows a third is when you have children.

38:07No, that's completely... Is she lying to me? Well, she doesn't know. But when the baby comes out, it's a trillion neurons a second or it's a billion. The baby is developing really quickly. And then there's a growth spurt in adolescence. Sorry, when you're a toddler. But the frontal bit of the brain really comes into fruition when you're in your 20s. That's why you can't really, that's why they're wild and they have no breaking system. But I wouldn't say a third, a third, a third. And it doesn't grow. It just means more neural connections. You know, more synapses grow. It's like a tree. And the smarter you are and the more experience you have, there's more connections.

38:48If you don't have an experience and the parents ignore you and they don't rock you or look at you in the eye, the frontal part doesn't even start growing. And by nine months, you're dead. You need to be rocked. You need to be loved by somebody. I mean, they found all these babies in Trichesco, you know, in orphanages, and they were rocking themselves back and forth. It's a hole in their brain. It's just a hole in the frontal cortex. If they're not dead, then good luck for avoiding criminality. So it's not a third a third. That is fascinating. I saw this video the other day where it talked about how playing peekaboo with a child is so important.

39:27Because they're so alarmed. And when you scare a kid, it's a half laugh, half scream. but it's so exciting and the neurons are trying to figure it out. You know, if you give novelty to somebody, it really grows. That's why old people shouldn't do the same old, same old, because they deteriorate. But if they change their environment, they change where they sit, they change their food, they change their habits, there isn't natural disintegration. Wow, that's why learning a new language or learning an instrument is really important. It's really important. Yeah. Or just try different things. Try different things all the time.

40:03That's what makes them grow. And if you don't, it's like a plant that you didn't water. You had no blueprint how to be a parent. Really? You sort of did in a way. Well, I married somebody who did. Yeah, I married it. I always say for length and because he was a great mother. And I literally picked him out the way you do when you're breeding animals. I think, what do my genes need? And genetics, by the way, doesn't naturally pass. It's just, it's a better, you got a better shot at a normal kid. Because you've got three kids. Yeah, none of them have a mental illness. Wow. They're anxious because in this environment.

40:38Hey, who isn't? But they're not, they haven't got depression. Well, a little bit, but not the full severe thing. And you'd notice it by now. You know, by their third, you'd notice it. It gets younger and younger when you notice it. It used to be people, it showed up in their 60s, you know, many decades ago. And then it kind of died. So you couldn't see if it was episodic. But now I think I can't figure it out. But every 10 years it gets younger and younger. And now it's early, early life. There's a moment you described that when your kids left, when you had emptiness, you cry. You said you cried on the floor on all fours like a cow.

41:16Like an animal. I howled. I howled. Now they're all back. I'm still howling. so talk to me did you why because you when they left you felt this it's primal again you know it's primal but I really got on with mine there's a real bond this is a real thing you know I I did the I always say I I didn't pass the baton of madness um this might be the first generation in 7 ,000 years that didn't get it are you are you thankful for that yeah I thank Ed all the time I don't like him but I thank him

41:53no I like him yeah I know you do and you've been married for what 35 years yeah wow yeah I know okay so you said you first experienced depression when you were around 10 years old yeah but we didn't know what it was so what were you feeling at no maybe like um 15 you feel like you're stoned you know you're you're awake but you're asleep it feels probably like hibernation so Oh, they thought it was a physical disease. And I got all kinds of blood tests, like was it glandular fever? Was it Epstein-Barr? And they couldn't find an answer. I was literally depleted of blood. And then only when I was 31 did somebody say this is depression.

42:31They didn't have a name for it then. So you're 15 years old and what do you think? You're just feeling empty? You can't imagine. I mean, that's why people commit suicide, not because they have a knee infection. It's dead. You're dead but alive. That's why it's so serious. You can't move your limbs and you can't get to the other side of the room. That's just too daunting. If you don't have it, it's impossible. It's like saying this is what AIDS feels like. And I can use as many words as I can, but you'll never understand.

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44:48I went through, I have been through severe anxiety, right? And with anxiety, you get that low mood feeling. But it's not, yeah. And I said to my therapist, I said, I think I'm depressed. I said, I'm depressed. And she said, you're not depressed. Yeah. And I said, I'm depressed. I'm feeling low mood. I feel this. I feel that. She said, okay, I'm going to send you to a psychiatric ward and show you what depressed people look like. and then you'll be want to get out of there in two minutes. You're not depressed. Yeah. And I said - I wish everybody understood what you just said. Yeah. And she said to me, and I said, well, can you describe what it is?

45:20Because I'm describing what I'm feeling. And I was panicking. I was like, no, because I was, I was, it's all with anxiety. You're so fearful of things. I was fearful of so many different things. I was like, well, I'm fearful I'm going to get this. And she said, the only way I can describe depression is nothingness. You just, it's nothingness. It's nothingness. It's nothingness. You've left the planet. You're gone. Yeah. Except there's high, high, high something, fear. You define depression as the black hole of disease where you sit helpless as your mind hammers your accusations, your thoughts attack like little demons biting chunks out of your brain.

45:55It's hard to stay alive and listen. Oh, that's really clever. That is very clever. Could you send me that? I could send you that. Send me back my quote. But can you, because I'm fascinated in this space, is that really what it feels like? There's no feeling. So how can I say feeling? There's nothing. She's right. You're in space. So then how do you drag yourself out of that? It leaves. It finally, it's an episodic disease. It's not like bipolar where you've got a high or a low or schizophrenia. You don't get over schizophrenia. but depression comes and goes. That's why people think you're making it up because they think you thought your way into this, think your way out, but your thoughts are sick.

46:40So you can't think your way out. How do you deal with it? You don't, you end up in a mental ward. You don't deal with it. The real thing, poor people that can't get in a mental ward, but there are national health mental wards that I visited. So, but now the problem is there's not enough beds, But you can't function. You can't go to work. That's anxiety. You cannot go to work. There's nobody left. So Ruby, did you ever think about taking your own life? Oh, I talked about this yesterday with a guy from Suicide Prevention Alliance.

47:17When you're that sick, you don't care if you get hit by a car, I was saying. You don't think about picking up a razor, but you walk really slowly when you cross the street because it hurts too much. Oh my God. So do you count your lucky stars that you're here today then? Yeah, but I don't remember being sick. I have to read my own books because it's all, you know, it's like girls when they have their, you know, when they have their period, they don't remember the next time they want to go to McDonald's and strangle everybody and they go, oh yeah, that was last month. So you don't remember the last depression.

47:53So when you're 31 and you found out that this is depression, was that like a eureka moment? Eureka, yeah. Wow. Then you know there's medication, and they can start experimenting. So it took me through that moment. Well, I was happy because they had, you know, when you have a label, it's liberating. So then medication starts. And some medication works for a while, but if it worked, you wouldn't have relapses. But I haven't had depression for 12 years. And then I had the big one when I wrote, I'm not as well as I thought I was. And there was a reason for that. It wasn't because I meditate so I can tell when it's coming.

48:30But I'd gotten off medication six months before I ended up in an institution because I thought I was going to do psilocybin. And they say, you have to get off your medication. So I did. That's how I ended up in a mental ward. So talk me through that moment. Because you were traveling the world, weren't you? Yeah. I was living in a Christian monastery. I migrated with humpbacks. I tried to get people out of Afghanistan, and I did. and I went on a 30-day silent retreat. So that's what the show and the book is about. Somebody who's looking for meaning. But then I end up in a mental ward. So the journey goes in as to how did I end up here and what's wrong with me?

49:08And the journey goes out and everybody's looking for meaning. Everybody wants to know. There's a eureka moment where you go, yeah, that's how I have to live my life. So it's something that appeals to all people. Well, unless you're having your chicken farm watching Netflix. and there's a lot of those, but they shouldn't read my book. And then I got ill. So a lot of people go, oh, let's go on that journey, inward, inward. What happened? I get a great EMDR therapist, which is trauma. So can you explain to everyone who doesn't know what EDMR is? EMDR, eye movement desensitization reprocessing. They wave either a pendulum or their fingers left right across your face.

49:50I have two vibrating instruments. Oh, right. It's left right. They say it connects your brains because when you're traumatized, the right brain is still in shock, but the left brain isn't functioning because you haven't got words for it, which is your verbal side. So by connecting them with the right, left, but the cord is out. It doesn't make any sense. I mean, a lot of people, you don't know why it works, but it is the therapy du jour for trauma. So I started doing this therapy because I went to a therapist and said, you got trauma. And I said, I don't have trauma. Yeah, trauma is the word of the day.

50:21And I said, I have trauma. I haven't, you know, I'm fine. Like they said, well, okay, well, let's give it a go. So I was holding these two instruments. They're vibrating. And I spoke about this a little bit before. Anyway, going. Do they go right, left, right, left? Right, but in my hand and you talk about the certain scenarios and different things. And I could someday, I think I'll probably go deep into it. But there was this moment which was almost. But if you haven't got trauma, why go deep? Because I probably do have a bit of trauma. Yeah. Well, you know, it's like how much do you have to clean out the basement?

50:46Yeah, a little bit, I think. But I think, but there was this moment when I was doing this therapy, which was just crazy, which was so visual, I cannot even explain. She said, tell me about a place where you felt very lonely. And I went, okay, well, I felt very lonely when I was sitting at the top of the stairs. And my brother, who I loved, was sitting downstairs and he'd play the violin in the kitchen. And I was always known as a naughty kid because I was all ADHD all over the place. And I used to sit at the top of the stairs and hear my brother playing this instrument. And I'd be scared to go to bed.

51:17and said, let's go to that place. I went, okay, fine. I would go to the place. It became so real. I saw myself at the top of the stairs. I picked myself up as a little boy, took myself to the room, put myself into bed, and I could feel this warmth of like happiness and no loneliness anymore come across me physically. But that's self-regulation. If you know how to do that, I wouldn't say that it's trauma. It would be if you're on the stairs and you lose yourself and you're gone. I'd say there's... Wow. Also, it's not trauma. It's childhood. You know, I think you feel certain things. You can't regulate.

51:57Your hormones are all over the place. You're lonely. You want the parents' attention. But I don't think it's like age genetically past. You know, you just might not have the depression gene. If you don't have it, you could fall out of a building and you won't be traumatized. Ruby, with all the things that happened to you growing up and everything that was going on, your career that you created is... Spiteful. It's done out of spite. It's not spite. It's amazing.

52:33You created wonderful television doing stand-up, don't you? And you still do your stand-up and still write your books. It's not stand-up. It's a show. It's got a narrative. It's got a plot. It goes from one story to an end. I think stand-up is much more chunky. And it really is love me, love me. I think in this show, it's so dark and so light that it doesn't matter if nobody laughs. I mean, I'd be upset, but it's still a show. Yeah, but when you first started your career and you did television... I never did stand-up. But you saw Joan Rivers and thought, oh, I can be funny and be... No, I never could do stand-up.

53:10She's a stand-up. I thought you were just, you linked comedy with different things. No, it was always Alan Rickman who said, do a show, do a narrative, show me the script. And now we work with a director, me, and you, and you tell the story. Do not be desperate. Tell the story. So what do you, tell me about the show. What do you want the audience to come out with when they watch it? I do the first half and then there's a interval and then the second half, it's question and answer. so if I take my clothes off mentally then they're really free so sometimes even with you know 900 people or whatever somebody in the stalls will say something and somebody in the balcony would say me too and then I have them meet after the show so it's like um I was connecting yeah it's tinder for um psychological damage but going back to the start of your career you you did shows for I think it was 30 years making shows.

54:09And what is amazing is some of your interviews and some of your shows got about 14 million viewers. I mean, it was the most popular thing. 14. 14, one four. Yeah, crazy amounts. And you were working, working, working. And then you talk about the fact that suddenly your career just went, stopped. It did, but they wanted me to do reality shows and I wouldn't do it. You should have. No, I couldn't. I can't. Why? Right. Because my guts won't go there. I, you know, I wish I could. I can't. I can't do those shows. I can't. I don't know why. And I don't really need to know. But I had such a great career.

54:46And I'm so smart.

54:51See, I'm not that insecure. But there's a moment which I find fascinating. I didn't need it. You know what I mean? If you already get that kind of thing, you don't need it. And then they ask you to go and just shoot the shit instead of really structuring, you know, a great show. Because I edit my own shows. Then it's, I wish I could do it. I wish I could do dancing on whatever. But there was a point, right, which is, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, which is where you became frustrated or you disliked the world of television because you were so popular. and then there's a very famous quote which used to say when you used to get into taxis and people would ask you why aren't you on television oh yeah they still do and what do you say um sometimes I say because I'm really ill sometimes I say because I work in America sometimes I say well I don't see you too much either I find it really insulting yeah I mean I was a great canoeist I'm not that anymore either when I was eight you know I mean so what's the point you were a lot of things.

55:53Anyway, I wanted my dignity, so I went to Oxford. That's how I can end my days. I went to Oxford. That's my greatest accomplishment out of nowhere. That's your greatest accomplishment? Yeah. Why? What is why? Because I wasn't smart, and then I ended up smart. Not in all areas, just in that one. I just, do you not feel you had dignity on TV? I mean, Oh, it was a different thing. I don't know if a comedian gets dignity. That's not a word that's really used. But explain that more to me. Give that more. I think to go to Oxford, my other classmates weren't impressed that I was on TV. I think you're popular and you're loved and you've made people laugh, which is no easy feat.

56:45but it's not people don't go wow from being so stupid so stupid but why do you need that validation i didn't i just thought of how interesting i could have been so smart when i was young yeah i could have been i could have been a player that is so interesting i the world of television and now especially with social media it's really hard like to to I find social media relentless because I've now got into a place which I never was before where I'm comparing myself to other people oh yeah that's why I send my um Instagram to somebody I don't even know how to get on Instagram because I never used to do that and and someone told me once was a really interesting thing they said um you know so uh we should have a village mentality right which is where we know 200 people exactly that's all we should know we know our tribe we know our tribe and out of our tribe we have a unique selling point which is make us ourselves so we're either the best actor best dancer best at making clothes or lifting weights whatever it is within our tribe we have our little space and now because of social media we're competing with the world and that is if somebody has millions of viewers i don't want to know i don't want to know and you talk about uh Not because I really believe it, but because we all have envy.

58:07And I don't want to stoke mine. Do you think we all have it? Not as bad as I do. Okay, well, talk to them about that. No, no, you know, I've explained myself. So I'm envious of people that are more, I don't know, loved or more paid attention to. And this is from very young. So I don't like to stoke it. I don't really believe it, but I don't want to stoke it. It's beautiful. It's like I don't watch a lot of news. I kind of am aware. Now it's because it's salacious. Now I want to see the bodies. We're human. There's a moment where you need the information and there's a moment where you're overindulging.

58:47I think it's knowing yourself. I think that's my next book. That is so true. What do you need, you know? Yeah. And that's beautiful the way, It's beautiful that you outwardly admit that because lots of us don't. We don't want to admit it. Oh, it doesn't matter. Whatever. We're not this. We're not that. We all have that. You can't do everything. Can't do everything. And what is amazing is that you beautifully talk about the fact when Louis Theroux came onto the scene and you couldn't stand it in certain ways because he was sort of doing similar things that you had done. Yeah, but you don't want to be eaten by the next shark.

59:27Yeah. Yeah. in the chain of but what was so amazing is the way that you described it which i loved as you said it's not about him it's my own psychological issues that i have to deal with that were affecting that yeah and that's amazing that you can see that i think for me which i had to go through in this sort of battle is like and like i are jealous of them or irritated or envious of them no no that's my own issues it's not them that are doing it's my own issues your judgment is your enemy. That's my next book. I think it's called Get Wise. What do you think you're going to write about in it?

1:00:02What we're talking about. Well, how do you, what's the conclusion? The conclusion is what wisdom is. I, you know, I'm working on it. I haven't got there yet. I'll let you know.

1:00:17Ruby, I mean, listen, you've done so many amazing things. We could go on and on and on. And I just, I really want anyone who has listened to this to go and get your book I'm not as well as I thought I was thank you yeah thank you and go and see your show as well and everything I just think yeah it's amazing what you've achieved and what you've done he's so nice isn't he yeah but it's true Ruby and honestly like I said at the beginning it's for me I always want to know what I'm getting out of like an interview right like I sort of think about what the listeners are going to get but for me it's about I'm obsessed with people that's how I learn I never really learned through books or reading things.

1:00:56I learned a little bit through lists, but I learned through listening to people. That's how I learned. Yeah, that's the best way, isn't it? Totally, right? Yeah, it sticks. Yeah, it's amazing. It doesn't stick in a book for me. Okay, right. We've got eight questions, short answers that we'd like to finish with. Are you ready for this? Yeah. What's a saying or phrase that always makes you smile or cheers you up? That cheers me up? Mm-hmm. Ooh, nothing cheers me up. No phrase. Give me a few phrases. I know I thought about this, but I couldn't. I love you. Happy birthday. Oh, no. Happy birthday. I don't think about suicide.

1:01:31Happy New Year really does. Any happy, because don't push that on me. What about anything your kids say? Oh, my kids are proud of me. And so that's a golden moment. Wow. When they say, I saw your show and you really acted. They don't usually say that. But sometimes they say, oh, you were an actress. You are an actress. Well, no, not always. When it's a bad show. But when I'm good, I'm good. Best compliment anyone's ever given you, maybe that. Oh, maybe saying I'm good looking, like you did. Because I don't buy it, but okay, thanks. You should buy it. Well, thanks. You should 100 % buy it. What scares you most about yourself?

1:02:14My doubt. You know, my self-doubt. It's a killer. Yeah, it's a killer. You can't pick up a computer. You can't do anything. That's annoying. When was the last time you cried and why? I don't cry because I'm on Lomotrigine and you can't cry. But when my cat dies, because he's 19, I'll cry. You will? It'll break through the Lomotrigine. Yeah. But I don't remember crying. I try to squeeze it out, but it doesn't work. Okay. What's something you can't let go of? um well what we were talking about i can't let go of uh you know that i wasn't smart i can't let go of it wasn't that hot what i did and i can't let go of i i'm so stupid in most areas but you're proud of yourself right sometimes but you don't think of yourself you think come on ruby write that next book then i'll be proud yeah but at some point you you have to look at i think At some point you have to look and go, there's always better.

1:03:17There's always more. There's always more. There's always more. Yeah. And at some point. And there's always like the reminder of what you haven't done. We have a proclivity to negativity. But I have to remember that's human. That's why I studied therapy and mindfulness is that this is a human condition, not my condition. Totally. There's a great quote in Meet Joe Black, the movie, where Auntie Hopkins gets up and says, I'm happy because I'm content. I wake up every morning and realize I don't need any more. Yeah, that's it. End of story. End of story. End of story. Closed chapter, right? What's your guilty pleasure?

1:03:51Oh, my guilty pleasure is martinis and ice cream. At one point, could we do martinis and ice cream together? Yeah, we could. Okay, I'd love that. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to get your number. Okay. What turns you off? Stupidity. What turns you on? Intelligence. What do you like most about yourself? Um, that I can be funny. Favourite swear word? Cunt. Ruby works, thank you so much! Thank you.

1:04:28Loved, loved, loved. When you're sitting there listening to it, or just now, before you go, are you knowing where the edit's going to go? Do you like, oh, I can feel this? There's some bits, there's some bits where I'm like, oh, I'll probably take that out. But then sometimes it turns a corner and I'm like, God I'm going to have to keep that bit in because that bit was really interesting that bit really landed really? yeah but there's a few bits also there's sometimes when you'll ask a question and it like maybe the answer is a bit short and I'm like no that's an easy cut oh that goes yeah she was amazing she was so great so many great stories and so open and like and wild I know I loved it hey Ruby thank you so much for coming on the show and also guys if you haven't subscribed to the show please do and also you can get in touch we have an email which is greatcompany at jumpopproductions.co.uk or we have an Instagram account greatcompanypodcast go and check them out send us any comments anything at all and also what?

1:05:22Ruby's books we'll leave a link in the bio leave the link in the show description so you can go and check those out as well so please go and do that and as always we're going to see you next week for another episode of Great Company

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