SHANIA TWAIN: SAVING MY FAMILY AT THIRTEEN

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1:39Let's go, Jamie. Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang, and this is Great Company.

1:48Oh, my. My lordy lord. Man, I feel like a woman. Bam! Let's go, girls. kick that door off its head. Oh my God. This is mad. This is mad. For anyone who hasn't looked at the show description today and you just, it's suddenly you're just listening to this without even seeing anything. Welcome to Great Company Podcast. My name is Jamie Lane. I'm the host and you are? The producer Jemima. And we're very excited. Come on, get that bit done. I've got it done because we have Shania Twain on the podcast today. Actual Shania Twain. Now this has been such a journey to get here. About two years ago. spoke on Newlyweds podcast, which I do with Sophie, my wife.

2:34And I mentioned the fact that when Shania Twain says, let's go girls, you could honestly punch your hand through a roof. It's so exciting. And I said this on the podcast. We made a clip of that. We then posted that clip out and Shania Twain actually commented underneath the clip. That sent us into frenzy. It was very exciting. Then when we had a little break after we got married and we came back from nearlyweds to newlyweds podcast, which we are now, we managed to get Shania on the actual episode. We were going to interview her. And then because of her touring and things like that, we couldn't do that.

3:09Wasn't it right? So we just got a little moment with her. Yeah. Yeah. And now... Well, since then, we've been like, we need her on. We need her on. And she has very kindly decided to come on Great Company today. How are you feeling right now? I feel pretty nervous. Yeah. I'm very excited. Yeah. To you, listen, when I was a kid, I used to put teddy bears in a row and I used to interview them. I've always wanted to be an interviewer. This is like my dream. And the fact that I get to sit down with a real superstar. She sold 40 million albums. Her big album that she did, 40 million albums she sold.

3:42And the fact that we get to sit with her. The fact she's coming to our little studio in Vauxhall. I know. Can you also say, because you understand you've done the logistics and that. Is she bringing a whole team with her? Yeah. So when you say you practice doing a talk show in front of your teddies, I imagine you probably imagined there being an audience. Well, there'll pretty much be an audience. So she has an entourage coming? Non-entourage. I think there's seven of them coming with her. But our full team at Jampot have lost their minds and they're all coming in. So I've managed to find them all a job.

4:12So like the studio, just before we came in here, I had to like say, OK, everyone needs to calm down. You can offer her a drink. You can get the drink. You can give the team a drink Because they all have their jobs Do you know what's so funny? Shania Twain is going to be in this building I know It's mad It is mad We're very excited Her story is incredibly impressive And chaotic at times And sad at times And amazing at times And so we have an hour and a bit with her So I mean We have 75 minutes We have 75 minutes From the minute she walks through the door 75 minutes as soon as she walks in the door Yeah which is why everyone knows their jobs.

4:54Get her in and we go. Well, we should probably begin. If you don't know who Shania Twain is, she's a country... Where have you been? Where have you been? She's a country and Western singer from Canadian. She has sung songs like Man, I Feel Like a Woman. She sung songs like So You Think You're Brad Pitt. That don't impress me much. And so many more. She's over here to do Glastonbury next month, which I'm going to... Anyway, look, everyone just is like, just get on with the episode. So should we just get on with it? I think we should. Okay, if you haven't also followed the podcast, please do, because it makes us stand out from the crowd.

5:27So please click that follow button. Thank you for listening to this episode. God, I'm all over the place. You are. You're just so excited. All right, let's calm down. You ready for this? Let's do it. Let's go, girls. Sorry, could I have said that in a more lame way? Let's go, girls. All right, here we go. Welcome Shania Twain to Great Company Podcast. This is going to be the greatest interview of your life. Well, that's a great setup. That's a good start. Hi, I'm Shania Twain and I'm great company. Do you realize how much your songs have impacted your fans? And how many lives? You know, Shania, what you would have done is that you would have people who maybe have lost someone or maybe are going through a breakup or maybe are, you know, thinking about someone they love.

6:17And they've sat in their rooms, I know, in the bathroom, in the pub, in the bars, listened to your music and you've made them get over it. Or you've made them feel a certain way. You've made them change their lives because your song has come on and they've gone, yeah, I'm going to, I can do that. Let's go. I relate to it as a fan myself. Really? Music does that for me. I love my time with music, listening to music as a listener. I love my time at concerts. I'm a huge just listening fan. I totally understand how music impacts lives and, or I relate to it. Not a scholar of understanding the psychology of what, you know, the impact of music, but I, I'm part of it on both sides.

7:05and I appreciate it as well. People tell me fabulous stories. From this moment on is a story. There's a woman that told me her story of what the song meant to her. She was delivering her baby. She put From This Moment On in the delivery room on repeat so that when the baby was born, that is what that song would mean. From this moment on, life has begun. It floored me. I'm thinking, okay, I definitely would not have thought of that one. That's a much deeper meaning than a love story with a man. I'm like, this person, this listener took the meaning of the song to a whole other level. So yes, I do understand.

7:48And it just amazes me. Never stops amazes me. But I do understand it because I'm that fan. Yeah, I love that. I rarely get nervous. Do you ever get nervous for anything? Well, not for interviews. I probably was nervous for the David Letterman show. What about being on stage? Being on stage doesn't make you nervous ever? Not anymore. It used to. I used to have a lot of, like, I used to have stage fright for, probably up until I was 42. Are you serious? Mm-hmm. What was the sudden change then that suddenly made you not nervous to be on stage from being so nervous? I had an operation on my throat, open throat surgery, and I was not sure if I would recover well enough or that the procedure would work, that I would be able to sing again.

8:44So my ability to say, okay, this is not worth worrying about. This is a small thing. Just get out there and have fun. Small thing meaning the fear. The fear is just, you know, it just wasn't as relevant anymore. So I started having a lot more fun, a lot less fear. Do you know why it's so funny? That kind of happens, I always think. I think we go through life just, however big or small it is, we worry about so much. And then suddenly we kind of look back and we go, what were we worrying about there? Why were we making everything so hard for ourselves all the time in terms of worrying about coming on stage or worrying about, I don't know, even so small, going on a date or whatever.

9:28You know what I mean? We, we, we big things up so much, but actually, and then with you, when you potentially lose something, you realize how amazing and magical and awesome it was. So you're just like, well, now I need to enjoy every moment of it. It really is the, the, um, the old saying, uh, you know, once you lose something, you realize how much, um, you miss it. So, I mean, I'm not saying that I was taking my voice for granted because I wasn't. I've always loved to sing and I've never been afraid of the audience. It was always more about, I need to be perfect. I need to be, I was very hard on myself.

10:07You know, I didn't ever want to miss a note, forget a word. And everyone was like, no, we didn't hear that. And you were like, I heard it. Exactly. So it's really learning about letting go of the things that you can't change. They're already done, they're past, they're gone. So, and that just makes me more fearless going forward. and, um, but the letting go part, it's easier said than done. I needed something. I guess a wake up call. It was a shock to have to be faced with maybe never singing again on stage. It was, I was grieving that. What happened during that time? Uh, well I was, by a tick I had Lyme disease and that in my particular case, in everyone's case, it's different.

10:50Everybody has different, types of effects, some none, some more serious. For me, it was a very unusual side effect, which was that it attacked, it gave atrophy to each of my vocal cord nerves, the vocal cords, the nerves. It's incurable and irreparable, meaning irreparable damage. So the atrophy is permanent, and the operation is a little experimental. They're not sure if it's going to work. They insert Gore-Tex supports. And that is meant to compensate for the atrophy in each nerve. So the vocal cords are in great shape. It's as if, it's like if your jaw's in great shape, but the hinges aren't supporting the action.

11:48So you just don't have control over the movement. It's crazy how life does that. Yeah. Like a cruel joke of some kind. You know what I mean? It's not like I would have wanted it to have been my heart or my brain or something else critical. A lot of it though was just my self-expression. So if I went to a game and I wanted to scream out loud and cheer, I couldn't do that. I wanted to yell out for my dog. I didn't have the projection. My voice would just flip and be out of control. So it was also affecting my just everyday life. Still not critical in the sense of life or death, but critical to me as a performer.

12:26In some sort of ways, it makes you lose your identity, right? Because your voice is so a part of you and that to be taken away from you feels unfair. I was grieving for the loss or what I believed for a very long time was going to be a permanent loss. But I still had writing, which is really at the core my greatest joy. And that will be my full-time creative expression. And I was not bummed out about that. I was embracing it. You have this insane resilience that most people I don't think would have. I certainly don't know if I would have it. And even in this situation where you're potentially losing your voice, you don't know if you're going to get the voice that you know to come back, but yet you go, but at least I can still do that.

13:20I can do that. You are constantly looking ahead to think, okay, it's going to be fine because at least I can write. So there we go. There's the silver lining. Yeah, but I don't think that immediately. So it's like in the moment when I'm going through a challenge, I definitely go through the thinking of or the process of if I can never sing again and it looks like I may never because nobody seems to know the solution or even what's actually wrong. And, you know, then that's a death of a part of me for sure. You know, anything tragic that has happened in my life, I will grieve those things forever.

13:57They're griefs that change you permanently, that do stay with you. There are triggers to those griefs. I don't pretend they don't exist. But at some point, I decide anyway that I can't live miserable. I got to find another way to be happy about what I do have and what is ahead of me. So it's not that I don't crash and burn when I'm devastated, because I definitely do. But I guess it's more about the recovery. Like I said, I don't think ever completely, but you gain other things. So good examples. So with my voice now, there's new things about my voice that I really love that I didn't have with my old voice.

14:50I've got sounds and tones and power in places that I didn't before. So those are all new discoveries that would have only have come about under the circumstances that happened. happened. But again, what's amazing is that you're just, you're going, well, this happened, but at least I've got this. At least I've got that. At least I'm, you think to this positive, do you think you're an optimist? Do you think you always look towards the positive rather than the negative? Yes. I'm always going to look for the solution anyway. You know, I'm going to look for the solution. I'm not going to stay broken.

15:25I'm going to, I'm going to fix this. But that also means not giving up. It does mean perseverance. I'm kind of the same though. I always think that I always want to try and solve a situation. And even in my relationship that I have, I'm married now and my wife gets annoyed because she'll tell me a problem and I'll try and solve it straight away. And she's like, I just want you to hear me. I'm like, no, but I can solve it. Wait, you have a bad break? I can solve it. I can fix it. I can fix that. And all she sometimes wants is me to just listen. And I straight away go to that solving thing. And I don't know why I do that all the time.

16:00I am that too. Yeah. Oh yeah. I'm ready to fix, straighten anything. You know, I'm definitely that person. I've got that. I'm a busy solver, fixer. Because I think it's a protection on ourselves. Do you think we do it because it's protecting ourselves maybe? It's a good thing to ask oneself. It's a good point. I like to solve things because I just don't like the stale, stuck, helpless feeling. And I think of dependency, especially. And I really so believe in being an independent thinker, independent person, independent in every way, taking responsibility for if it doesn't go right, that you're responsible, that you took that action, that you said that, that you thought that.

16:55If you're a baby, do you have a child? No. Okay. That's another conversation. I'm scared of that. Okay. Okay. So you have to take responsibility. You want to have a child, right? So you have a child. Yeah. And you've brought in another little mind into the world. Yeah. Okay. Another heart. But that being can't tell you when it's itchy. It can't tell you when it needs its diaper changed. It can scream and cry, can complain. So that's true dependency. That is scary. So there's a period where the child cannot tell you when it's uncomfortable, when it's hurting. Once you do gain that independence, and I've been, we've all been kids.

17:42I don't remember what it's like to be a baby, of course. But what I'm talking about more is my own childhood, for example. I wouldn't want to live my childhood over again if I had been able to be independent earlier just to make life better. I would have, but I couldn't have. What do you do when you're three, four, five, six, seven, eight years old, whatever, a child of minor. So once I did get my independence, full force independence. Because independence is freedom. Freedom. It's complete freedom. I totally understand. So if you are in a bad situation, I think that's a moment to exercise your own individuality, your choices, the way it affects you.

18:29You have to take charge of that. It's empowering. I agree. I think being independent is so important, especially in every part of your life, whether it's your work or your relationship or home life. Being independent is amazing because then you can have the strength to always do what you want to do, right? Well, look at your wife. She's just, all she's saying to you is, I don't want your help. No, never. She never wants it. I mean, and if I do want your help, I'll ask. And if you want to help me just because you're a generous husband. Yeah. So generous. I'm the greatest. Go ahead. Go ahead. offer.

19:03But then when I say, no, I'm fine, then just let go of it. Let the person be independent. You're going to learn this as a father too. But I'm not good at letting go. Well, that's that you got to learn to do. You got to learn to let go. How can you move forward if you can't let go? What are you going to do? Wait, let everything you're going to just. Yeah. Oh, there you go. You let those go. You're going to carry all that weight through your life with you. Well, it's an interesting thing, right? Because I think, I think like it's okay if you can't fix somebody else worry you gotta fix you gotta focus on yourself yeah I think that's I think sometimes I probably find it hard to let things go a lot of the time and I probably do try and fix everything and make everything okay and that's then becomes a lot of pressure I think we learn we gain we gain other dependence is the problem as well we enable other people to be dependent on us which is not necessarily a healthy thing it's a healthy thing to let other people fix their own fix themselves fix their own fix their own problems and when when your wife or your kid is saying you know i got this trust that i mean of course you have to trust that there it's their right to grow from whatever it is that they're doing and i actually enjoy it i thrive on it i thrive on getting myself unstuck When do you think that you gained, because you spoke about your childhood and I mean, as you said yourself, I think your childhood was tough.

20:31And I think, you know, there's a story when you packed up the car for your family and you left and you went to Toronto and to escape what was going on at home. and you're so young and at that age that that feels is that the moment where you gained your independence where you suddenly thought okay i'm i'm i can do this by myself i can take everyone with me uh that's um that was a very very uh important turning point in my own mind in my own uh and then in all of our lives in my family's life but i went to bed the night before and i said I was 13 years old. And I said, this is the lowest, darkest, most unhappy I'm ever going to be again.

21:21I mean, ever. It ends right now. This is it. I'm never going to be this down again. That was something I was saying to myself. This stops now. And the next day, backed up my mother and the kids in the car and told her to drive. Um, she wouldn't have done it otherwise. Cause she wasn't independent. She wasn't strong enough. No, I mean, we'd left, she'd left, we'd left, you know, this is the thing when you're a minor, uh, you leave, you're, you're a runaway. You get picked up by the social services, by the police. You know, this is not, But I didn't want to be apart from my family. I wanted us to be safe and together and my mother to be safe.

22:14And she had tried to leave. She did leave many times before, but always returned. It's quite statistically, I mean, studied, obviously. It's so unfortunately common that the woman leaves and then comes back and leaves and goes back. for many, many, many reasons, which is another topic altogether. Of course, I've lived through it with my family. But this time was going to be different. This time we were going to go further away. We were going to go to the authorities. And I was going to – so I had – we went to a phone booth. We drove to Toronto, 13 hours of driving, went to a phone booth. I opened up the yellow pages and said, Mom, here is, we got to go to one of these shelters.

23:04I looked up battered women. And I said, but I can't call. You have to get out of the car and call because I'm a kid. They're going to know I'm a kid. They need to hear you. So we dolled up and she did it. So, that was the beginning. What does that make you fit at that point? Because I'm trying to, in some kind of small way, put myself in that situation where you're that young and you're terrified and scared and you don't know what's going on. And the home life is aggressive and turbulent and all these things are going on. But then you're suddenly at this moment where you're trying to persuade you, come on, make this cool.

23:50I just, we got it. And then when she makes the call and you hear a voice, is that just a sense of like, okay, we're one step away from where we were? Yes. I mean, you do these things out of desperation. Yeah. So it's not like, you know, you're this child hero saving your family. You're doing this because someone's going to get really seriously hurt and possibly die. So you are faced with it over the years. You're just like, you know, at 13, I guess I felt as if I could assert the urgency or my urgency, my awareness of how critical things were. She had to, she wasn't waking up to it. and she was like a zombie.

24:50Was that because of love? Do you think the love was so strong that it was just blinding your mother? Oh no, my mother was very dependent on, you know,

25:02she needed me, she wouldn't have done it. Not to that degree.

25:10And or at least I knew in my own self that I couldn't depend on her to do it. and she needed that. She needed the guidance. It sounds weird, but... No, it doesn't sound weird. But because also what happens, right, is that you... It's strange, right? Because when I sit here and listen to that, you talk about how when you have a baby, when you have a kid, they are so dependent upon you. You have to look after them. You have to... If they're itchy or whatever, you know, what you said, you have to make sure they're okay. But in your situation, the roles are reversed. You're becoming the parent at such a young age because your mom can't possibly do that.

25:48And that's a tricky situation to take on because that's confusing, right? It must be. If it happens overnight, yes. I mean, I wasn't building up the courage to do it. I was just living the reality of a kid in a violent domestic,

26:08you know, home with domestic violence all of my childhood. and among other things, other dysfunctions. And I just declared to myself in bed the night before that this is, I am not living like this anymore. And I can't depend on my mother to change it. So I'm going to, when I got up in the morning, when my dad went off to work,

26:39I, which I often did, I brought my mom a coffee in bed, bought her a cigarette, lit her cigarette. And I said, Mom, we're leaving. The car is packed. I'd already done that. And literally everybody was ready to go. All you got to do now, all you got to do is just get your clothes on and drive. um so it was it's very sad i'm more sad about her um than i am for us as kids or myself i was saving myself why were you more why are you more sad for her because you felt I mean, how horrible it must feel to be a parent, an adult, and realize at some point that this is how you, you know, what you've come to, what life has come to.

27:47Or, you know, you're dependent on your child for the safety of all the kids and her. It was very violent. dangerous and very dangerous. So I guess I just reached a point. I did. I just reached a point where I just declared this the last miserable, scary day of my life. And of course it wasn't the last miserable, scary day of my life, but in my 13 year old self, I was going to do something about my life at that moment. And, um, I didn't have to beg her. She just, she did it. What was your relationship like with your mom? Was it, was it always good? Because I think she, from what I understand, she was the one who pushed you towards singing.

28:39She wanted you to be the country singer. You, she took you, I think you were singing at the age of eight in different places. I mean, that feels like so. And then I think you took on this role of right. Well, now I want to become the singer because I want to do it to help and provide for my family because you sort of took on that responsibility. I mean, it wasn't so much to provide for my family. I would earn, you know, when I would go sing in the bar, I might get 20 bucks, 25 bucks, 50 bucks. You can't provide for a family on that. This was to like, if we were going to use the gas money to go to the bar to do my singing, then I'd have to be able to put money back in the tank or, you know, put some money toward the groceries, something like that.

29:25So it was, I couldn't just go and do it for nothing. And that was, it was more of that, more of a compensation. We were, I mean, trust me, 50 bucks bought a lot of apples, for example, or a lot of bruised apples. We always went for the bruised fruit and stuff and vegetables, which is all fine. It's all good. Nobody died from a bruised apple. But the deeper message is really more – or not a message, but I don't really want people to think that I was the provider for the family. I was a peacekeeper. I was more responsible for my mother's happiness than I should have been. She lived for my music.

30:13She loved my music. She was inspired by my music. She would get out of bed to listen to me sing. She would take me to the bar. My mother otherwise barely left the house. And I would do her makeup before we would go. I would do her hair and her makeup. and then we would go out to the bar.

30:40My mother was just sort of broken. But at the same time, she's the mother that saw the talent and wanted to nurture it. She just didn't know any other way of doing it. It's like, well, I just got to find stages around here. She started by putting me up on restaurant countertops to sing with the jukebox. And then... You weren't nervous to do it? You just got up and did it? Not at three. Yeah, true. Okay. You know, and the people would applaud and it was, you know, it was fun then. Then by the time I was eight and I'm singing in the bars, now it's no fun anymore. Why is it no fun at eight? Oh, because, you know, I'm only a lot in the bar, the liquor law, at least at the time anyway.

31:29no kids in the bar, no minors in a liquor premises until the bar is closed. Bar closes at midnight. So last call is at midnight or maybe just before midnight. And then I was allowed in. I could get up and sing. And if the band didn't want to carry on playing, then I would just get up there with my guitar and entertain everybody that was left finishing up what was on their tables. But it was smoky and stinky. And by then everybody's He's, you know, half cut and it's nowhere a kid wants to be. And you got school the next day. So no, it wasn't fun. Wow. That image of you at midnight when everyone's drunk and you're just getting up there doing acapella or just singing.

32:15If there's someone to help you do it, that's wild. Well, with my guitar. Yeah, of course. Yeah. But you know what I mean? I always had that. I had my guitar. Yeah, I didn't like it. I didn't want to do it. And, but there's the dependency thing, see? What do you do when you're eight? And your mom, you know, is living for this. It makes her happy. But when you were performing, was that a sense of escapism? Could you then just suddenly escape from everything and you were just singing and you were on stage? It doesn't matter if it was a countertop or a bar top, at least that was your stage. Not the performing.

32:51Really? No. The performing was more like I was on display. Yeah. the writing was the escape. So the writing was mine and I would, that was my great escape, writing. And you know, writing, music, any stories is creative writing. You're playing with words. I was playing with an instrument. So I was writing music and lyrics. I would take my guitar for long walks. I would literally go into the bush, light a fire. We were a real bush family. We spent a lot of time out in remote areas out in the wilderness. And so it was nothing for me to go out alone into the bush and start a fire and write music and just escape into other realities, create the stories.

33:47My imagination could go anywhere. I could write about anything, anyone, any topic, any chord progressions. And I was alone. It was for me only. My own nourishment, my own uninhibited self-expression, escapism, therapy. Yeah. Cause it's all of you and it's so personal because it's just you just, just writing and putting it out there. And it's for no other reason. No one ever has to hear it. I think forgiveness is one of the biggest things that we should understand and learn. And I live by a sort of quote, and I don't know who it was, but I said another one, which is, you know, seeking revenge is like drinking poison and wanting other person to die.

34:36You just have to let these things go. And from what I've read and you've talked about, you have to deal with forgiveness in your life. You know, there is your ex-husband, from what I understand, had an affair with one of your great friends and you had to forgive and move on. And that's a hard thing to do. And I know people listening right now probably find it hard to forgive. So what advice would you give to them? Okay, well, this is a good one for you now to be talking about because you're talking about, we're talking about letting go and how difficult it can be to let go. Forgiveness is in the family of letting go.

35:19But forgiveness, more specifically for me anyway, is not really, it's not about forgetting necessarily. It's about understanding the other person. And that might mean that they're, you know, wrong. wrong. Maybe you believe forever that whatever they did was wrong, or maybe you believe that, um, like in my father, my father's a better example. Okay. Because this is someone that I totally forgive. And, but I understand that he wasn't well, that you don't act certain ways, unless, you know, unless there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with your stability. So I don't hate him for having forced problems.

36:20I feel bad that he had those problems. So it's not for him, not for, you know. So it's very hard to hate or not be able to forgive somebody that you believe is a human being that deserves empathy and understanding. I think we all do. You know, if you're a criminal, you know, just because you don't hate your own parent or I'm speaking for myself. So do I hate my ex-husband for making a mistake? No, it's his mistake. it's a good way to put it right not my mistake yeah not your mistake so sad for him that he made such a great mistake that he has to live with so um and i don't i don't know what that is but it's not that's not my weight it's not your boulder it's their boulder no no as much as it's been these incredible highs you mentioned that there's been these real heavy moments and you You know, we spoke about grief earlier and one of the hardest days of your life is when you, your partner at the time had a call and your parents were in a car crash, a fatal car crash.

37:51I just. It's just a, it's a collapse, an absolute collapse, like an implosion. It's, it's, it's out of your hands. You don't manage your emotion. It just, everything's just happening to you. And it is a total collapse. Well, partly, part of that collapse is also shock in my situation. I mean, losing anyone is never, it's always going to be devastating and traumatic. when you lose somebody suddenly without any warning. Two people. I mean, it's your, it's a big black hole. It's numb. And then there's grief, of course, after that, which is just all, that was, yeah. I mean, I'll never or never, ever want to go through that experience again in my life.

39:04How do you get through something like that? How do you get through the grief? How do you process it? Because the one thing I always think is that, you know, if we sort of hurt our knee or I don't know, something goes wrong, you think, okay, it's going to get better. Or with something like that, you just don't know if you're going to feel better. And that's really scary. I spent a lot of my time over the years thinking more, how did this happen? You know, it's a lot more of why, how.

39:42I wasn't even really thinking about how it was going to get over. I don't even know. You don't get over it. You get through it, I guess. and you, you know, in my situation, because it was so premature in our family's life. I mean, the kids were kids still and I was a young adult. So it's, you're not ready in any way to deal with all the responsibility that comes with that afterward. And so that, I would say, I was more focused and I guess preoccupied by how to deal with what was next rather than how I was going to survive the grief and the shock myself. Staying busy with things that I didn't choose but that were just there was probably a blessing in some ways.

40:42so I didn't I didn't get I didn't go down a rabbit hole I wasn't into drugs or crime or anything that would have gotten me into trouble and I had music I kept moving forward, I had music and I had responsibilities You're such a you're an amazing storyteller, you really are And not only we can obviously see that in your music, but in person as well. You just you have this energy about you that I don't know. Are you just saying I talk too much? No, no, you don't. You got this energy about you. Tell great stories. Oh, my God. I mean, I honestly I wish I had a whole day. I wish I had 24 hours with you.

41:25I really do. Because you you you explain things and you that's probably why your music relates to you. Because you you allow me sitting here to feel it, to understand exactly what you're feeling because you're talking your mind. Does that make sense? You're really explaining how you're feeling and what you were going through. And that's incredibly unique, I think. I think most people just go, okay, well, this is what I felt. But you really feel it and tell it and let other people feel it. I'm a passionate person. I don't consider myself a great storyteller as a talker. And I do definitely like to put my thinking into songs or storytelling.

42:04spelling um but speeches for example if it's something scripted i'm not as good at that it's it's like okay i can write it down and i can or i can just sit and and chat about it and explain it but reciting things is more difficult for me yeah i'm the same as that i don't know why that it's so hard there you go see i can sit i can sit and i can just talk if i have to read something right I mean, or I have to learn something? Yeah. F that. I tell you. You're a freestyler, see? Hey, I'm way better. Yeah, I can freestyle better than anyone. That's what I say.

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44:58Favourite lyric you've ever written? Oh. Have you done one and you've just gone, that's good? Because I could name a few. Well, I do love to play with words. I love playing with lyrics. A lot of times, though, it's more the process of putting the song together that's the play with lyrics. Yeah. Something like, I don't know. I'll give you an example of something that everyone probably knows the lyric of, Man, I feel like a woman. So you might have been expecting something more deeper, more emotional. But Man, I Feel Like a Woman is a statement that tells so much in those few words.

45:52And I could write a book on what is behind that song. So the skill of the song writing, not that it disguises those little, you know, those few words, that short phrase, but there is so much more behind it. I mean, there's a lot of great classic even hits out there that really don't say much of anything. Some of them are just la la la songs, right? Yeah, completely, right? And that's fine. but when you talk about an actual writer a lyricist um man i feel like a woman is talking all about uh or not not that it's talking about but i'm expressing so many things yeah and um so the joy in that is is really really really great so i don't know what i thought i would say that was my favorite one but it meant a lot when you wrote that well you you must have been like this feels this is strong because it's it's such a iconic strong i mean it doesn't really matter who you are you kind of know that line it's amazing well it's fall mccartney said that said didn't he say that was it let it be or one of one of the great beatles songs um that it was scrambled eggs at one time.

47:16That's very true. So it starts, you know, not all my songs start that way, but a lot of them do start with shipperish, just more about, it's more about the phrasing and the cadence of the way you play with the actual phrasing of the wording. So man, I feel like, well, when I was searching for that phrasing, but not deliberately thinking I want to write a statement about feeling good in my own skin as a woman. The song ended up being that. But the man I feel like a woman was just a statement. It was almost like I had a realization. This song, I know exactly what I'm going to say in this song already.

48:03You could feel it. A light bulb went on. I'm like, oh, yeah. Okay. I'm just going to let all this out right now. This is going to be fabulous. So it's very satisfying. So I didn't know it was going to be a hit or that it would mean something fabulous to anyone else. Songwriting is solving puzzles. That's totally what it is, I imagine, right? Because you're making your, you've got a jigsaw and you're putting it together. And then when you suddenly complete it, you go, here we go. But even more difficult than a jigsaw, you don't know what you're actually putting together yet. You don't even know.

48:36You know, when you have a jigsaw, it comes in a box with a photo on it. Yes, you know what you're doing. It's like, okay, that, okay, I know that there's a tree up here and there's a, you know, the sun is here somewhere in the middle. You're just guessing. Well, you're creating. You're creating it as you go along. So you're creating in the dark. How many songs do you think you've written? It must be a crazy amount. I don't know. I don't, I haven't, I have never counted. I'm sure hundreds. I mean, I don't think thousands, probably have thousands of ideas that I've noted. Yeah. Do you think songwriting though is, and I tread carefully here, do you think in some ways with some of the stuff that's in the charts, it's sort of maybe it's done on what it sounds like rather than what they're saying?

49:25I think there's credibility to every, every, all music that, this is my take on it, but All music that mass listeners, especially on a global scale, gravitate toward is music that those creators, whoever created that music, has succeeded at something very, very difficult to achieve. So, you know, if you're going to, if you write a speech that reaches the masses, impacts the masses, affects the masses, you're a good speech writer. What you're saying may not be good. Maybe the content isn't credible to a certain type of critic or whatever. But if the majority of the people are affected and enjoying, and music I'm saying enjoying because that's why I make music, but let's just say affected and they gravitate to it, then you're achieving something that's very difficult to achieve.

50:33So it's a skill regardless of whether the song is popular and is just a bunch of sounds or if it's really saying something poignant lyrically. I heard that Dolly Parton was one of the people that really inspired you. And what's incredible is that she did the legend slot at Glastonbury. And hello, Shania Twain, also at Glastonbury in the legend spot. Tell me about it. Unbelievable. Right. Here we go. The fact that Dolly did that slot makes it a very surreal thing. Why? Tell me why that is. Because she's one of my absolute heroes.

51:26So it puts a stamp on things for me. It's difficult to get perspective in a career at times when your career is at times extremely busy. You don't always have time to reflect on everything that's happening. You don't have time to absorb even some of the great accolades.

51:49but when it's so obvious like dolly parton's done that and now you're going to do it it's it's a stamp it's a stamp of approval it's a stamp of um you know achievement are you trying to say you're proud of yourself is that there we go there we go i'm very proud of and you should be it's unbelievable but i think if you get to that if you're doing something that dolly did At this level, you've achieved something amazing. Yeah, but I think you've already achieved it. I mean, God. Yeah, but there's some things that are just, you know, blasphemy is, it's an event. And the more I hear about it and talk about it, the more I realize.

52:35It's a religion. Yeah, it's a religion. And a lot of people say that. And it's also a commitment. Yeah. It's a cultural commitment to an event, not to necessarily specific artists. So it's as if the event has developed or the culture has developed these slots that we get invited to. It's very, very surreal. So, you know, like Dolly Parton was at the head of the table and now I'm going to be at the head of the table. You know, that's very special. It feels like an amazing moment, right? It's very, very special. Yeah. Have you worked out what you're going to sing? I'm going to stick with everything.

53:21My most popular music. I want everyone to be totally happy. I'm just there to play. I'm there to serve the event. I really feel that way. It's like, you know, I'm there to give the speech. I better make it good. I'm the head of the table. You're going to make it a bit. I think honestly, it's going to be iconic. I think it's going to be, and the crowds, get ready for that. It's going to be wild, I think. I've heard it. And I really love that the sun is still out. That's very unusual. When you're a headliner at a festival, you're normally on when it's dark. Yeah. And which it's the vibe. That's awesome.

53:57You know, but. It is the UK. So watch out. The sun might not be out. Well, even if the sun's not out, it's still light. That's true. that's kind of there's something very vulnerable about that yeah you can see everyone like at night or in the dark even in an inside venue you really don't see very far into the crowd um because you have the lights on you but i'm gonna be able to see everybody from the stage, the whole thing. So the view will be spectacular for me. Do you think, I'm going to ask you a personal question. Do you think you are, are you generally proud of yourself now and realize, do you sometimes think, because you spoke about it, it's like ships in the night sometimes when you're just achieving, achieving, achieving, doing arenas, going around, selling albums, you know, 10 million, 20 million, 30 million, whatever it is, you keep going.

54:53When does that point happen where you suddenly go, hey, I've done all right here? And I wasn't doing enough of that when I was younger in my career because I was just too busy. I wasn't absorbing it. I wasn't appreciating it. So I didn't get to appreciate it. I wasn't patting myself on the back. I was busy looking forward, writing more songs, and didn't get to reflect and enjoy the moment in the moment a lot of the times. I'm doing that now. I'm catching up with all of that now. So now I'm like, oh, how fabulous is that? Isn't that great? And I'm having fun with that. And there's a sense of humor that comes with that as well.

55:33Because really, if I'm proud of anything at all, if you're talking about pride and achievement, it's it's the it's more about the courage that I've mustered at times to you know to deal with the stage fright to you know take the plunge with the operation to take that risk moving on after divorce which was my music partner for so many years That was a whole stepping out in itself. There's been a lot of jumping off cliffs. And I'm proud that I've, if I'm proud of anything, I think that those are the things that brought me the achievements. I love that. You have jumped off a lot of cliffs. You have.

56:25You've just done it. You've gone for it. Takes courage. Insane. Shana, we end the podcast with eight questions. And there's also a bonus question. Okay. Are you ready for this? I honestly wish we had two hours, but we don't. Okay, here we go. What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? Let's go. Go. Forward. Great. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? I look better with age. Come on. There we go. There we go. Ha ha ha! When was the last time you cried and why?

57:10Last time I cried. You know what? The last time I cried is I wrote a song and I teared to myself about this song. It's not out yet. Can you say what it's called? It's called Hardest Fall. Yeah. Really moved me. It's not even finished yet. it's just the the chords and the emotion and it made me made me very teary so i don't know i don't know exactly what how it's gonna turn out but i can tell you it's gonna my plan is to you know make it one of my strongest what scares you most about yourself my energy i think energy is great no but i'm gonna run out of life before i run out of energy that's what scares me about it i'm gonna have to live to be 200 it's never gonna happen i do want to say is when we met at the o2 when you're performing honestly i was with jemima who's sitting our producer and i you are a powerhouse i was like oh you uh you you come into the room the room lights out you're like right let's do this go and then you're on stage and you i mean it's it's wild energy it's great energy it's unbelievable um what's something you can't let go of i can't let go um i can't let go of music sorry yeah that's a good one like take anything you know you can have my car you can even have my horse and that would be very hard but do not take the music what's something you'd be embarrassed for people to know you like or want embarrassed it's very hard to embarrass me Is it really?

58:54I'm just going to say that right now. It is. It's very hard. I don't get embarrassed easily. Okay, ask me the question again so I can reset. What's something that you be embarrassed for people to know you like or want? More children, but that's not embarrassed. Like I would love to have five kids. Really? Yeah. Love that answer. That's a great answer. I need to stop being scared of kids. Big question. What turns you off? Aggression. What turns you on? Music. Again, that's my light. That's my, that's my drug. Really? You feel it? Oh yeah. Bring on the music. Quick question where I want to go. What song do you wish you'd written?

59:42Long and Winding Road.

59:47Do you get jealous when you hear it sometimes? I always say I wish I'd written that song. I love that. like everything about it, the arrangement. I just, oh my God. What do you like most about yourself? What do I like most about myself? I would say probably, I don't want to say my brain because sometimes my brain drives me crazy, but I do like to think. I like to ponder. I'm a thinker. What do I like most about myself? I can name a few. Yeah, but it's got to be coming from me. Very true. So it's not going to be. Very true. It's not authentic, is it? Yes. What do I like about myself? I like my, I like, I'm not a quitter.

1:00:32I like that about myself. It can be torture sometimes, but. Two more questions. Favorite swear word? Can I say it? Yeah. Fuck. There we go. Did it feel good? Is there any other? I don't think there is. That's the best.

1:00:54Last one I had to ask permission I mean I don't want to be rude Oh you can swear on this Don't worry A lot of people swear Last one What does impress you? Kindness Ditto on that Kindness is everything I completely agree Just be kind For God's sake Be kind Shanara I was nervous to do this You've been amazing You're iconic in every single way I cannot wait for Glastonbury I'm going to be there I'll be shunning from the audience Screaming Thank you so much for being the legend that you are. And thank you for becoming a great company. You're amazing. Thank you.

1:01:30Are you buzzing? Shania Twain was just in the building. Yeah. Wow. She has star quality. Yeah. That is a real superstar right there. When Shania left the room, Jamie, we obviously have candy kittens in the office. Jamie just ripped over candy kittens and just like inhaled an entire bag. What is really upsetting about it is that we didn't talk about Fred, her husband. He was there And he was in the room And I was talking to him afterwards About his aura ring Saying And he's Swiss And There was so much more I could have chatted to her about I know But it was so good Was it alright? She's so inspiring Yeah The way that she Her like Attitude to Having had such Like some really Really tough moments In her life And she just She's a fixer She keeps going She's so inspiring So inspiring Man, that was just so great on so many levels.

1:02:26Look, I think I just got to stop it there for the day because I'm sort of over jacked up with adrenaline. Also, you know, I said before that I gave everyone one job. So everyone was like, because I was like, let's not bombard her with everyone offering her drink. Everyone offered her a drink. She got offered a drink about seven times. And the drink was already on the table. It's like that. Hey, to you lovely listener who is listening right now, if you want to go and check out anything to do with Shanai, we'll leave some links in the description. You can message us on Instagram. Let us know what you thought of the episode.

1:02:57We'd love to hear from you. And please remember to follow this wherever you're listening to it because it does so much for us. I cannot even begin to tell you. And just thank you for listening. We freaking love you guys. So thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you could possibly share it to anyone who hasn't listened to it, if you enjoyed it, that is, please do that. And we're going to see you next Wednesday for another huge episode of Great Company. Goodbye. Goodbye.

1:03:37Hi, this is Nox from the Popcast with Nox and Jamie. And maybe like us at the Popcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapers. And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches. Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction. And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either 3 or 6 milligrams. Check out zen.com slash find to find Zen at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine.

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1:05:07couple blocks of My Mochi ice cream and chew it. Love it. Repeat. Hello, everyone. We're Jamie and Sophie. You may remember us from Nearlyweds and then Newlyweds. But now, guys, things are about to get even wilder as we take on our biggest adventure yet, becoming parents. Yeah, that's right. Newlyweds is now Nearly Parents, and we're bringing you the same honest, heartwarming takes on our journey to parenthood, I guess. Join us as we find out what it really means to become a family while trying not to kill each other. Get ready for Nearly Parents, your favourite new podcast.