SPENCER MATTHEWS: OUR FIRST HONEST CONVERSATION ABOUT OUR FRIENDSHIP

0:00You and I were pretty much thick as thieves. Yeah. But we went through a really rocky period. Why do you think that happened? Then I had my English wedding and you weren't invited to it. At first, I just brushed it off as, oh, it's fine. It doesn't matter. But the more I thought about it, the more I probably felt that it did matter. The true reason for it was this. Hang on a second. Go on then. Hi, I'm Spencer Matthews and I'm in great company, sort of. The broadcaster has made history. 30 marathons in 30 days. This is Spencer Matthews. You've known me for 20 years. It feels weird saying that, doesn't it?

0:33Yeah, 20 years. Yeah, I don't know anyone for 20 years. We spoke to some of the biggest names on the planet. Paul Rudd. Brad Pitt. Morgan Freeman. J-Lo. We got topless with Channing Tatum. Yes, we did. If you could go back in time, would you redo MIC or would you not? I was a very heavy drinker at that time. What day do you remember when even you went, this is bad? If I could walk past the liquor cabinet and there was nobody looking or nobody around, I might have a sneaky shot of tequila or something at 9am. How old were you when your bro died again? Ten. Really? He was my hero. He goes up on Everest and he doesn't come home.

1:06Even at his memorial service, months later, there was no body there. Even then I had thoughts that he was living in Nepal. Oh, shit. And I was thinking, you know, maybe one day he'll come home. That's very honest. I've never heard you say that ever. I don't think I have said it before. So, at the end of all of this, are we friends? Are we friends?

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3:47Hello everyone, my name is Jamie Lang and this is Great Company.

3:55Hello everyone, welcome back to Great Company podcast. I'm your host Jamie and this is... Jemima the producer. Jemima the producer. If you have listened to this show before, welcome back. If you haven't, you're probably here because you've seen the title. or you've just somehow sprung yourself across it. But today is a big episode because we have an old, old friend of mine. Yes, we've wanted to do this for a while, haven't we? Yeah, we have. Spencer Matthews on the show. I was a bit worried about doing this. Tell me why. Because Spencer and I have had a very long friendship. With a very long friendship, especially one having been on a television show together and lots of things, you go through lots of different ups and downs.

4:36We were so close at one point And then we weren't so close For a plethora Which is a great word for Scrabble Of reasons Which we kind of go into today We talk about in the episode What happened at my wedding Why he didn't turn up to my ultramarathon run Our friendship Made in Chelsea Alcoholism His brother dying And friendship overall when was the last time you saw spencer socially before today the last time i spent i since my marriage to sophie since my wedding to sophie was two years ago two years ago i have socially seen spencer once wow we did a podcast together for a bit um and he decided to stop that because he wanted to pursue other things at the same time he stopped his podcast with his wife.

5:32He wanted to follow different things. And we just haven't seen each other. We went for dinner after my run because he reached out to me. And today's episode, we talk about all of that. Were you nervous about seeing him today? I wasn't nervous, but Spencer's a master at spinning things or working things or doing things any way he likes. Not that he has done in today's episode, but I didn't know what version of Spencer I was going to get. And so that was a bit like, hang on, is he going to be the version where he wants to portray himself in this way or that way? Or is he going to be raw and honest?

6:04And I think we did basically get, I think we got the raw and honest version of Spencer. I think this is a really interesting episode, especially when we spoke to Alain de Botton a few weeks ago about friendship. Exactly. And the importance of our friends and sometimes holding our friends to account. Yes. And friendships like breakups. In breakups, you talk about things that are going wrong. Whereas friendships, I don't know about you, but I will just stick my head in the sand and be like, I was not going to talk to you for a bit. and try and get over it rather than confronting someone. I actually quite like confronting things now.

6:35Yeah, but I still think it's a very nerve-wracking conversation to have. No, no side. Spencer has his side of why we weren't so friendly and I have my side. And I'm going to stay neutral here. I'm going to stay neutral. You're going to stay neutral here. You say your part, he says his part, and I will just put it all together and what will be, will be. And there was part of me that didn't want to do this episode for lots of reasons. Well, because I, sometimes I think that speaking about your personal relationship with friends and family members, you probably shouldn't air on a show. However, I've kind of done that my whole life.

7:10So why not lean into it? And also, if I'm being totally honest, life is way too short to worry and sweat the small stuff. Sweat small stuff in other situations. But when it comes to friendship, try and rebuild friendships. Try and make them better. try and come together because in a world where we're becoming disconnected and things are going wrong and people are trying to push each other apart why not try and bring things back together so that was the reason I wanted to do it and the learnings that I take from this is communication is the most important thing in life and the reason why most things break down is a lack of communication so if you're in a situation right now and you feel like your communication isn't good this episode's for you a lot of learnings from this I really hope you enjoy it If you haven't subscribed to our show already and you like our content, please do.

7:58It does us absolute wonders, I cannot tell you. Are you ready for this episode? I am. Okay, enjoy this episode of Great Company with Spencer Matthews. Hi, I'm Spencer Matthews and I'm in Great Company, sort of. Are these notes? What have you got notes for, you little weirdo? Don't you look at my notes. I told Simon that I didn't need notes for you.

8:29So, okay, where do you want to begin? Well, it's nice to see you, firstly. Nice to see you, too. Yeah. We did Made in Chelsea together, and you and I, like, grew up together. From 1920, well, let's call it 21, 22 to 30, you and I were pretty much thick as thieves. Yeah. I'd speak to you every day. I would see you most days. We'd do everything together. and then somehow along the line it it it changed and i want to know like why do you think that happened it's it's a really good question and to be honest like i don't regularly socialize with anyone really i think when we used to spend a huge amount of time together we would also work together right we were on made in chelsea we would see each other a lot we would do made in chelsea in New York, Jesus Christ.

9:22But we did, but we had a friendship, we had a friendship for 20 years. We had a friendship for 20 years. It's like a big deal. And then I, for me, I'll, I'll, I'll, for me, what happened is like, we, I had the, my English wedding and you weren't invited to it. And that like kicked off stuff to like not make us friends. I have to, I have to say, I found, I found it pretty confusing. I don't need to spend this time going into stuff like that if you don't want, but like, you can i don't know i i was i was i was pretty hurt by that and i tried to brush that under the table and i'm sure it was just like you know i don't want to speak for you but yeah i'm sure it wasn't malicious from you well at least i'd like to think it wasn't right i remember how i found out about that i was flying back from somewhere and vogue showed me a daily mail article that literally showed me your london wedding celebrations and loads of your friends there and i think we had had some conversation and you were like it's not really a friend's thing it's like a family small thing and there were loads of friends there and i can remember thinking like what have i what have i done or like who like like how what have i done to annoy him and then uh i and yeah i don't mind saying vogue was just a bit like it's pretty it's pretty weird that you wouldn't be invited to that you know and i just thought it is a real shame that i wasn't advice to that at first i just brushed it off as oh it's fine it doesn't matter but the more i thought about it the more i probably felt that it did matter um and i don't know and you don't you said it was a kind of genuine mistake and yeah and i was just a genuine big mistake for me as well by the way because i think i was i was stuck in it i there must be a reason for it Like it's obviously not just like a mistake The true reason for it was this During the wedding Soph was very anxious And having a really tough time with anxiety Around you know getting married And like I'd put her in doing this podcast All about our wedding And she had said to me before She said I just want to get married With my feet in the sand I don't want all of this And you want this Jamie I don't want all this So I was battling trying to like handle all of this podcast we were doing about our wedding and everything like that.

11:44And that was quite a lot to handle. And I was just thinking about her. And you, I had had my stag do and you didn't want to come to the stag do because you didn't want to come to the stag do, which was fine, which I get. But for me, that was like, well, why wouldn't you want to come to the stag do? and so when it came to the English wedding I was like this is all hectic this is a lot I was just like it's going to be complicated if I try and invite him because he probably I don't know if he wants to come because it's going to be like a small thing for lunch and will he want to come do that and to be honest in my head I just went fine it's one thing less to think about I just won't ask him to come and I can now focus over here and that's why it happened for the record I would have loved to have been there and I would have flown from anywhere to be there right like you've always been a very important person to me stag dues for me and i know we've joked a lot about this in the past um i i really i don't like the concept of stag dues i i personally think that stag dues make whoever you're marrying really uncomfortable maybe not in all cases but certainly uh certainly in in my case with drinking and yeah and you know whatever yeah the idea of going to a foreign country, bunch of lads.

13:01Like to me, it's even in the times where I used to go on Stag Dudes, it's never really sat well with me. I get that. You always get very, very, very, very drunk. And when you get very, very, very, very drunk, there's a tendency to behave in ways that you might not ordinarily behave in. And I made a decision years and years ago that bachelor party Stag Dudes just aren't for me. I'm just not interested. And it's not because I used to go on them and behave like a menace. totally just the general concept of them i'm not a huge fan of i should have made more of an effort with you maybe just to say listen like please have have a fantastic time love to come to the wedding i really don't want to go on stag zoo because i i don't actually like being away with a bunch of guys getting drunk for three days but i don't enjoy it but i think now like like i think firstly the biggest mistake i made at that is not is not communicating with you and just like focusing and I was very selfish.

13:54I was just focused on my own emotions and things. So I said to you before, I'm sorry that like happened. And if I could take it back and even Sophie still today is actually like, that's really bad what happened there. But it means, it means, it means a lot. It is, it is completely water under the bridge. I get that. But now, but now we're having these conversations, it's like a good thing. And then, um, but I also think that because look, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, right? But I think also because probably at that point, alcohol, I think you're in like the most amazing place with fitness and like alcohol and you're sober and all these different things.

14:29And probably because you were maybe battling around like whether not drinking or drinking. And so you were in a selfish space as well going, I don't want to put myself in situations that potentially are going to lead me to drinking. So I'm not going to articulate that to Jamie. I'm just going to say, I don't want to do it because that's not my thing. But in my head, And I'm going, hang on, but I would do that for you. For sure. Yeah. It's a breakdown of communication. You know, in retrospect, I probably should have come to a stag zoo for two nights and just not drank. You know, I just, I just, I, that was kind of selfish of me.

15:00But I'm sensitive to rejection. And so, so, so that's what happens with me. And then whatever happens, you know, we move forward, you know, we get to a point. And then what was, what was sort of upsetting for me, right, is then I do sort of the ultra marathon runs and that happens. and all the press articles for me and you was upsetting because everything was just around Spencer and Jamie aren't friends. They're not this. They're not that. And, you know, even like some articles are literally like saying, we've got some here. Here we go. You ready for this? Spencer Matthews snubs Jamie Laying's ultramarathon after being pissed off over a wedding feud.

15:37Right. Jamie Laying addresses Spencer Matthews' feud with a cryptic five-word dig. Oh. So all these articles... I wonder what it is. All these articles started coming out saying that we weren't mates and we weren't friends. And that was kind of upsetting for us. Well, definitely for me. We spoke a lot around that time. Yeah, we did. Because, firstly... But we went through a period, Spend, we have to admit, of not being friendly. But I think... And that affected me. Yeah, but I think it kind of... Again, it's communication. I think at the time that this was all happening, we could have chosen to be...

16:13I was about to say be men about it, but women probably do this too. We could have gone for dinner or something and just hashed out what the issues were. And we didn't. And so then it kind of feels a bit sour. And then we spend days not talking anyway, because in reality, you run God knows how many businesses, three. I run two. I have three children. Like, life is just different now. Like, do you know what I mean? I don't have the time that I had before to be across all of my friendships in the same way. I am not a great friend anyway, like genuinely. you know, you'd be, there's a few people that I'm in contact with semi-regularly.

16:52And that's it. Like, I'm not, I'm not a, you're like, I admire your social life as well, to be honest. You're, you're out, you're socializing, you're having dinners, you're out with Sophie, you're out with her friends, you're always doing stuff. We're not. But why didn't, why didn't we do that? Why didn't we sit down with each other? Because I think there were, there were two sides. I probably had things and you probably had things that we probably wanted to say to each other. Well, we've hit the nail on the head a little bit with the, with the confusion with the snag do. So I would not have understood that to be in any way offensive or troubling to you at all, at all.

17:22So it wouldn't have even crossed my mind that that could even be a potential issue. So for me, the first thing was learning in the Daily Mail that you had friends at your wedding and I wasn't one of them. And I was like, God, I thought we were like best friends is how I reacted to that. So I was a bit like, then I remember you now explaining, you know, the Stag Do thing. and I understand that you don't like rejection. I didn't feel like I was rejecting you. So that's where there was a misstep, I feel. Because obviously you saw it as insulting and I didn't. I didn't realize. Had I thought it would have been insulting to you, I would have come.

18:02Yeah. So I think that's the first big disconnect. And then I think we just kind of lost a bit of touch. And I get that. But then after the weddings, you decided to separate yourself a little bit, separate yourself. And that for me was like, that was the hard point because I was like, hang on a second. This is someone that I've got a 20 year friendship with that I would speak to most days that I grew up with. And that goes back to that able that you're able to close off your emotions and you were able to go, look, whatever this friendship is here. It's not right for me And I was like Well I want to try and figure this out And so that for me was a bit of like a Tricky moment And then I think When I did my ultramarathons And press articles started coming out I think you suddenly went like Hang on a second Why are we not even talking Because that's the first time That's the first time That it was kind of shoved in my face that we're not friends, if you know what I mean.

19:09It wasn't hugely intentional. Like the space was more just exactly that. It was just a bit of space. And to be completely honest, I don't take this the wrong way. I probably wasn't thinking about it as much as you were to come to you and say, let's fix this problem. Because it didn't feel like a massive problem. It felt like there was a hiccup with the wedding. And so I'm just going to give that a breather because it was annoying me. and then when those headlines came out about me not supporting you I was I found it absurd to be honest like you know because I think that because you outwardly because I think the problem is what happens with the press is that they're expecting you to be posting about it and to be there on the finish line and to be and actually you've put it quite correctly you don't think like that you don't think My plan was to post when you completed it, to post a congratulations.

20:08And I did story and not main page. I got loads of shit for storing it and not main paging it. Like fucking same thing to me. Like anyway, I kind of, to me, I'm not an avid social media person. You don't like social media? No, I don't. I love LinkedIn. If you're listening, I think LinkedIn is awesome. I hadn't even realized that I had made a mistake, right? So like, I'm sure it hasn't escaped you as well that these ultra events are organized and curated. This is a sport relief. Was it sport relief? No, comic relief. This is a comic relief challenge. When you were met by your pals along the way, there's been some communication between the BBC and them or you and them or whatever.

20:52I didn't care at all that I didn't receive that call. I was watching you. I was staying on top of it all. And when you finished, I posted what I genuinely felt was like a two sentence. Like, I think I said, I'm really proud of you. And pushing yourself through these limits was really admirable or something like that. And literally everyone went, oh, fuck you. Because people thought it was a PR stunt. They thought you'd just done it as a PR stunt. PR were violently unaware of my post. Anyway, there was so much pressure. And then it was like, I've snubbed you. I haven't been involved. And it's like, firstly.

21:22But what upset you about that? I would have loved to have seen you along the way. my phone didn't ring I didn't get asked to come to see you yeah but that's because we weren't friendly at that time the press and the public not that it's some big deal but like for a little period it was kind of like why weren't you there and it's like I just felt like saying I wasn't invited yeah but but but also it's leaning into a place where it's like you there was no way you could be invited because we weren't even talking and like so we weren't even friends so how would then you've been invited so I get it at the same time so it's like a catch 22 I didn't realize that we weren't even friends, to be honest.

21:58Potato, potato. That's up for debate. Potato, potato. But I would say, I think... I was very proud of you, by the way. Yeah. Just before anyone thinks that I was... There was a lot of headlines that were calling me jealous. I'm not jealous. Just for the record. No, I know you're not. No, I know you're not. I love success generally. I love people doing well. Jamie doing well is a pleasure to see, even if we're not talking or even if we're not like how we used to be.

22:32So when was the last time we did a podcast together, do you think? Why have you said do I think? Do you know? It's ages ago. Why? I have an idea of what it was because you and I, for anyone who doesn't know, we had our podcast Six Degrees with the BBC. Very famous. Very famous podcast that lasted four years. Yeah. It was your idea, the very good idea, Six degrees of separation. We can find anyone. Yeah. We spoke to some of the biggest names on the planet. Paul Rudd. Brad Pitt. Morgan Freeman. Yeah. J-Lo. J-Lo. J-Lo just launched an alcohol branch. She doesn't drink. Crazy stuff. Who was the maddest person that we interviewed?

23:13What interview do you remember we walked in and it was complete chaos? Because I remember my one. Aaron Taylor-Johnson didn't love us. I brought it up to him when I saw him at Glastonbury and what did he say? I said do you remember me? and he said no I don't think we've met and I said oh we have I interviewed you for Six Degrees and he went oh I love that podcast and he went oh yeah no he just he wasn't very comfortable with us with us me I don't think like he didn't he didn't like me I don't think what? we're since you know we've made up everyone but you know we used to do these interviews together yeah And I would It would be like Brad Pitt Or Aaron Taylor Johnson Or Morgan Freeman These big stars And what we would do is We would It would be like a junket style thing So we would Go and interview them In a hotel room Somewhere in London You would arrive And you'd go Alright who is it I'd be like Well it's Paul Rudd And you'd go Okay great What movie is it And I'd be like Well it's like Ant-Man 2 Or whatever it was And you'd be like Okay brilliant And the way that your brain works Is you You live You actually quite live In the present In a lot of ways So then as soon as we were about to go and you went, oh, God, we're about to go.

24:23What do I say? And I was like, well, we just go and talk. I remember when we saw Brad Pitt, you hadn't even seen the film Bullet Train. It's a shocking film. You hadn't even seen Bullet Train. I watched it afterwards. It's horrendous. It's why, honestly, if you're listening to this and you haven't seen Bullet Train, don't bother. When did it go wrong? Do you remember the time that we interviewed Aubrey Plaza? and I walked in and said, hello Audrey. Yeah, yeah. And she went, my name's Aubrey. She hated us as well, I think. She did not like us either. We've got kind of, we've got, we've got, we had a lot of energy sometimes when we would come into, I think it was a lot for Aubrey.

25:03She wasn't that interested in, in us. When I was a gym kick and you remember, she was like, you can even bother to get changed. I was like, well, I'm busy. We got topless with Jalyn Tatum. Yes, we did. He said that we were in good shape. He's not wrong. So, and then we stopped it because you wanted to stop it. You had just done your 30 marathons in 30 days. Yeah. It was, I had the same realization as I had with a number of things. So in the desert, I had these beautiful kind of cathartic moments where... What does that even mean? What do you mean? Like spiritual moments. I learned about this space called Thin Space.

25:47when I did a show about religion, essentially, for the BBC. And it's said to be that space between kind of heaven and earth. You might experience it feeling a gust of wind, you know, on your shoulder, or you might be thinking about a particular person and they call you. You know, that happens all the time to lots of people. But it's this sense of kind of deeper connection. And I feel that sometimes with my brother, Mike, who passed away on Everest when I was 10, when I push myself physically to what, you know, my, or near enough my limits. So in the desert, when we were, you know, when you're deprived of sleep and you're low on energy and you're in one of the most beautiful parts of the world, the Wadi Rum Desert, I felt this kind of deep connection to my brother.

26:34And so we'd see these shooting stars, but, you know, I had a particularly bad experience on the first day. I said a prayer to my brother, which I never do. And I literally, I got on my knees in the sand and I put my hands together and I spoke to my brother. And I just said, please make today better than yesterday and just give me some hope. Because I put in a lot of preparation. I'd ran 2000 kilometers in preparation for this thing. I put in the work and we started running and I was with Johnny, my physio, who is coming on my next challenge. And a shooting star flew across the sky that was literally, I've never seen anything like it in my whole life.

27:12it was it was the biggest i still don't even know if it was a star or something burning through our atmosphere atmosphere you left a huge red tail lit up the whole sky and i just felt from that point on that my brother was with me speaking to me um and it was amazing you know i just uh man i i i uh and and and the day was easier and then you know i i began to feel much more comfortable and and everything went into place fell into place how old are you when your bro died again 10 really yeah 10 quite difficult to process at that age death you know difficult thing um for anyone uh to lose a loved one but what was your relationship like he was my hero i kind of i loved him dearly but obviously it was he was in his mid-20s or you know coming into his mid-20s 22 when i was 10 so you know huge age difference it's not like you know we're outside playing sport together or socializing together in the same circles or anything he was very much uh my dad would work a lot when i was younger so he was he was away a lot of the time like i don't i don't remember too much about my dad being at home with us um so mike was was there because james was away racing a lot he was a professional racing driver at a very young age yeah and so i was with mike a lot you know mike and i would would play video games together we'd play hide and seek together we were pals and he would look after me and I would always feel that oh that's nice and I would always feel so this is a picture of your bro he made me feel safe and he made me feel loved so did my mum obviously but to me he was he was everything to me I wanted to be just like him really?

28:55yeah he was a great influence on me at a young age because if so it's your hero right and when he he goes up on everest and he doesn't come home and how is that even like articulated to you at the time how do you what happened how do you even find out at 10 years old language language was used with me that was accurate but that i didn't that made it harder for me to understand because it wasn't definite um it would be definite to an adult but not to a kid so i came up to my parents room do you remember it yeah yeah yeah i was in i was in uh we were in the caribbean at the time and uh my mom asked me to come up to their room and they said michael is lost on the mountain and to a 10 year old i was kind of like well i don't understand what you mean you know surely okay well he'll he'll be found it's fine You know, it was lost, you know, to an adult or anyone that knows anything about Everest.

30:00If you're missing on Everest, your chance of survival is slim. You know, it would be near zero percent to survive the night and then be found. It has happened, but it's pretty rare. You'd need to be incredibly lucky. And Michael wasn't lucky. We never found his body. But it was just difficult to comprehend as a kid. It didn't affect me at all for a little while. What do you mean, Spen? How could it not affect you? Because I assumed that he would come back. He was going to come back. Yeah. For me, he was alive and well. So I couldn't really understand why my parents were crying. I couldn't understand why.

30:36Did you see your parents cry? Yeah. But I couldn't understand that. To me, it was kind of like, but Mike is, he's super strong. He's super fast. He climbed Aconcagua better than anyone else at the age of 19. He's fit. He's strong. So to me, it was kind of like, this is all a big mistake. And the phone's going to ring and, oh, Mike went down with that. You're a kid. You kind of fantasize about things that aren't possible. When did you understand that he wasn't going back? Well, even at his memorial service months later, there was no body there. Because we weren't able to recover his body. So even then I had thoughts that he'd gone down into Nepal and was living in Nepal.

31:19and I was thinking, you know, maybe maybe one day he'll come home and maybe, but then I couldn't quite figure out why he would want to do that to us and then obviously you begin to process the, you know, maybe I won't ever see him again, but it took me ages to realize that that was a reality it never hit me in the way that it would have hit James James would have heard he's lost on the mountain, James would have gone he's dead and from that point on you begin to process the fact that you've lost your brother. Whereas in many ways you're happy that you're a child in that instance because you don't get the gut-wrenching pain.

32:00If you don't process it as well. You never cried about it. I'm looking forward to talking to you about crying. Here we go. Yeah. Because you don't cry. I've never in my life seen you cry. Ever, I don't think. And the only two times I know that you have cried is when you were on a plane. You told me about you were on a plane once and you were coming back from somewhere and you just couldn't stop crying on a flight randomly. I used to feel that I had no emotions, but that's not true. I do have emotions and I can... You've learned to suppress them. Yeah, but it wasn't intentional. I think people suppress emotion on purpose.

32:44um i don't suppress it on purpose i just don't have access to a range of emotions that maybe a normal person might have it is there it's just i don't really have access to it because i don't think you've learned i don't think you understand it in my in my in my my limited knowledge of psychology right and just like knowing you so well i don't think you i think when you feel emotion that you don't understand or don't like you in my opinion you'll you'll try and push it away by using things that you know that you can understand so you drank you you drank a lot right and you've spoken about that so you would use alcohol to suppress certain things you didn't understand because much easier to suppress it with certain things rather than facing up to it or one could argue that becoming an ultra athlete is another in a way addiction that you go into because you're suppressing feelings and i think that 10 year old kid in some ways when your brother died your hero that's going to affect anyone and you took it upon yourself to just protect yourself and you just closed down and you went right i'm closing myself down and then i'm just going to get through it without realizing maybe yeah potentially i i would i would say it's subconscious of course it is yeah it's not intentional because i have uh i'm a great believer in in therapy i have very regular therapy uh even when i'm you know killing it in business and in life and i couldn't be happier i have therapy and so what does the therapist say to you i don't see therapy as a place to turn when you need help necessarily i think it's really useful just to talk about how you're feeling generally right i i enjoy therapy a lot actually but this is new to quite new yeah yes it is definitely new 100 it's new because when i made loads of people don't know this when when i was um when i went through my tricky times i would talk to you a lot about it i'd not really anyone but i would talk to you i'd say i feel about this i feel about that and you almost didn't really understand it at times because you haven't experienced you you haven't really allowed yourself to feel anxious or depressed or whatever because you you have this amazing protective way of stopping those feelings coming out but would you want to feel anxious or depressed if you had the choice no i wouldn't i wouldn't want to and i and perhaps my natural chemical makeup is to feel that way like i'm probably more anxious just naturally so when you see this photo here of your brother yeah what does that make you feel truthfully well it makes me miss him because I don't, I, I don't, you know, that, that age I think is, is quite specific to, um, to, to, to growth, isn't it?

35:30And love and your childhood being molded. So take him out of that picture. You've just got, you know, a little boy on his own. Um, and obviously my family are, have always been there and I feel I have felt very supported, um, through that particular loss my whole life. I don't know. I think I'll take you through an example of when I did cry, by the way, because you said that you've not known me to cry. I told you about the time on the plane, which was just absolutely it was the most unusual thing that's ever happened. Yeah, because you don't understand it. But that was a that was a I don't know what it was.

36:05It was an emotional release of years, perhaps, of pent up. like I was screaming I had to put a blanket over my head so that I could avoid people complaining about the screaming woman I literally couldn't control where were you coming back from? I was coming back from Costa Rica I'd been doing an ultra event there, 250km through the Amazon rainforest it was incredible when I finished I had this this kind of great release. It was this incredible moment for me. And then on the plane, I was watching, what's that amazing Tom Hanks film? Captain Otto. Oh, Otto. A man called Otto. A man called Otto is great.

36:50And I don't know what it was, but I was really moved by the film. Yeah. And by the way, I've watched it since and I'm not that moved by it. Do you know what I mean? So it's kind of like it had nothing to, it was more the, I'm still moved by it, But not in the same way, right? So, like, it was this incredible thing. And I ended up just shrieking, crying. So I had to, my seat didn't go the whole way back, but I had to lean back and put something over my face. And, like, I was shrieking, like, yelling. And it happened on the following flight as well. I was just, like, sad. But why do you think that happened?

37:24I don't know. Come on. Maybe I was, like... Because you never show emotion. Maybe it's the, yeah, well, there's a bit of that. It's all pent up, obviously. So maybe there's a bit of that. And maybe it's... I don't know, feelings of doubt and a bit of self-loathing turning into pride and stuff like that. Here we go. Here we go. Yeah, here we go. Here we go. Dr. Jamie. Here we go. And I don't know, there's all kinds of stuff. I felt incredibly proud of myself. I couldn't wait to see my family. I knew I was flying home to them. Yeah, but I think, Sven, if I was have to dig deep, because I think you and I suffer with the same slight kryptonite, right?

37:59Which is where actually what we really want is to make people proud and typically our family proud. and that's what we really want at the end of the day. Yeah, I think so. And I think that we spent our 20s not making our parents proud in lots and lots of ways, drinking too much, behaving badly, just being complete idiots on a television show for so long. And I think I've come to terms with that much more than possibly you, I don't know, maybe you have now, but, you know, had or have. No, I think it's interesting. You and I have never sat in this kind of more serious setting and had a serious conversation, I'm realizing, by the way.

38:36Like you and I have only... Because blokes don't do this. Well, we've only ever... Like our work has always been tied to making people laugh as well, right? So you and I have never spoken before in a serious way. And that's dawning on me quite heavily. I keep feeling like you've got something shoved up your sleeve or something. No, I don't have anything. I have nothing. I have nothing. I literally have nothing. I swear to God. Because I'm not used to chatting seriously with you, to be honest. Agreed, yeah. But it's... No, we've had a lot of similar realizations. It's one of the reasons that our friendship has been so brilliant and flawed along the way.

39:12But you and I, I've experienced exactly what you're talking about. So the biggest turning point in my life, crossing the finish line of the 30th marathon in the desert was the biggest moment of realization that I, that like my family are so proud of me. journalists would talk to me differently it almost becomes less about your ego it's like you've done something that has forever changed you and you've felt and experienced things that not many people will experience but that's not why it's interesting it's a reflection of who you want to be but were never able to be before in my case you know this yeah like the person i'd like to say that i am today is exactly who i used to want to be but couldn't be or didn't find a way there yeah and but i suppressed a lot of that with drinking and stuff for the michael i don't i don't love blaming no mike's death on my alcoholism because i loved drinking

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41:56what did you miss about our friendship the laughs so like I miss our podcast the reason why I wanted to do this and do yours is because firstly it is boring when there are articles coming out saying you're not mates and all these things and every single time that one person I get it, it is boring and it's suffocating and actually you're caring about your family I'm about to start my family and that's what we care about and so that which I get hold on one second but and I'm just and I'm look and I'm happy and I missed our friendship genuinely missed it I think you admit that you're a tricky person to be friends with but I think that I'm I'm that constant friend I'm not a tricky person to be friends with I'm not I'm not always there why am I tricky?

42:42because you're so involved in what you're doing and to be a good friend you have to think about your friends quite a lot. And because you're so driven by your own, which is not a bad thing, your own success and your family, that unless you're in your circle, in your present, then you're blinded to anything else. That's true. Which makes you, as a friend, hard to be friends with because friends have to, you have to, friends are like a garden. You have to water them to keep them alive. That's what they are. That's how you keep a friendship. you have to keep watering them the whole time and you forget to water your friends what will happen if I forget to water you?

43:23but you do that's how you build friendships you have to keep doing that I agree you've taught me a lot in my life and I've said this to you before the reason why I loved our friendship or do love our friendship is because you're incredibly unique but actually underneath it all you're quite sensitive without people realising in some ways and I know that I can ask you about a lot of different things whether it's family or relationships or weight training or anything and you'll give me a pretty good answer and you'll want to help me with it. That's true. All of those things are true. There's never been a time where I have disliked you.

44:14What is the, if we go to the good times, and let's talk about MIC just quickly. Okay. What are moments that really stand out for you? We're just like, oh, God. What is like a pivotal moment on Made in Chelsea that really sticks out that was me and you based? Where were we? What were we doing? New York was, I thought I was having a heart attack in a taxi once. Genuinely, I considered asking the taxi driver to take me to the nearest hospital because I was just on such a mad bender. like genuinely I like I was coming home it was about 10 a.m and literally I was sat in the back of the cab and I was like how do I know if this feeling is a heart attack and I was like oh my god I swear that like when your left arm goes numb that means you're having a heart attack and then I'm like opening the window going I'm trying to get air in not that that's going to prevent the heart attack and then like I'm kind of just like and then you've got that weird thing It's like, do I tell the taxi driver that I think I'm having a heart attack?

45:12Or do I just see if it actually is a heart attack? Or then will it be too late? So no, New York was full on. Full on. And we were living in a one-bedroom apartment in Meatpacking District, just you and I. It was enormous. Like the trip, I mean, not the apartment. The apartment was pretty cool. The apartment was tiny. I slept on a camp bed the entire time and you had the bed off. Every single morning for breakfast, we went to this Mexican restaurant called Dos Caminos, which we titled Tos Caminos because it was actually quite shit. That whole time was pretty fun as well, to be fair. It was great times, wasn't it?

45:47It was. I mean, that was a feeling where you felt like less of a loser. I mean, the behavior, my goodness. But like you felt like, OK, cool. We're on like a US based TV show filming in New York. It felt big and exciting. It felt so exciting. It felt big and exciting. It was fun. But I... I was big and not exciting. Jesus. It was dreadful. I was just... You know, you'd think that you'd take the opportunity to, like, you're about to star in some massive TV show, just look after yourself a little bit. No, just turn up pissed and sweaty to every scene. Do you know what I mean? Massive sweat patches and just, like, red face and just slurring, like, in every scene.

46:32What were you doing? I was just, I wasn't even, I don't think I was sober for a single minute. Genuinely. It was horrific. If there was a magic wand right now and you could go back in time, would you redo MIC or would you not? Like, can I do it, but do it differently? No. Okay. You have to do it. If you go back in time and you do MIC just the way it was. No, I think, I think I would keep it. Okay. so you would keep it but also at the same time you find it so frustrating to talk about because it because you believe it paints you in a light that you don't perceive it which i get and and perhaps it did in certain cases where i totally understand but like what i find hilarious right is that it's it's still just there yes i'm 37 i started main chelsea with you guys when i was 20 or 21 or something.

47:29Taxi driver yesterday, right, on the way, I was heading home, long day, bloke looks at me and he goes, so what's happening with mate and Chelsea then? I was like, I don't know, mate, I left 10 years ago. I couldn't give a shit. But does not part of you say that you, through the good, the bad and the ugly, you entertained a huge amount of people in their teens, in their 20s, in their 30s. You being probably one of the best reality stars to ever exist, I would argue. Wow. You truly were, because what was so interesting about you, Spen, is you got it from day one. We did understand it, that's for sure.

48:14I didn't. It took me about a season and a half, two seasons to understand. You, from day one, realized that you're creating an entertainment show and you have to be entertaining. I thought it was real life. which it was real life but it but also you become a volumed up version of yourself that's what happens i guess i just like i catch the occasional clip of it right of me back in the day because people send them to me sometimes don't do that if you're listening uh and and it's kind of i don't know i don't i don't find myself that funny or entertaining i look drunk as i and i'm just like Like, I don't, I'm not, I'm not proud of the work.

48:58It's great. And thank you, by the way, for saying that I was very entertaining and that lots of people found it entertaining. That's fine. But it's like, I don't look at it and, you know, like if you look at Clean Co, something that I've built, I'm proud of that. If you look at Untapped, I'm proud of that. You know, these marathons and stuff, I'm proud of that. I want my kids to see that. I want them to feel like they can achieve anything and that they have someone to look up to in their own house, you know, who has gone out and done interesting and exciting things. So why can't they go out and do interesting and exciting things?

49:31Being on a reality show is an interesting and exciting thing, you could argue. But I don't know. The portrayal of myself is slightly shameful, I think. Like I look back at it and I just think, I'm not sure I'd want my son to be like that, right? And I'm not sure that I admire any traits of Spencer from Made in Chelsea, if I'm going to refer to myself in the third person. Do you think you were happy then? No, no, no, not at all. Well, I was having fun in inverted commas. I wasn't happy. I was desperately unhealthy. Like, I'm very lucky, very lucky that my mental health is so robust. Yeah. Very lucky.

50:14Yeah. because I was consuming not to continue talking about alcohol, but I was like, I was just, I was consuming so much alcohol, so many late nights, sleep always disrupted. Now that I've grown up and I understand health and wellness, you know, a lot better than I did and pushing yourself and dopamine releases and boundaries and, and, you know, exploring human potential. I was living the worst possible life that I could have been living in that time you know, throwing up all the time I was really unhealthy I don't look at it and I don't see a fun, cheeky you know, character who's entertaining and admirable I see a mess so that's why I don't love it But I also, if I was to, and one could argue that, right?

51:09One could go, okay, fine. But I almost, you have to be a certain type of person to decide to show your life on a reality TV show, right? So that makes us similar in some ways. And I look at myself in some scenes and I sort of feel sorry for myself because I know what I was going through. I felt that for you as well. And you, and sometimes when I look at you, I feel, and I maybe don't go, but I feel sorry for you sometimes because I think you would, without even you really, I think you're just dealing with a lot. I think you were dealing with a lot of like shame and a lot of grief and a lot of rejection and lots of things.

51:48I think we both thought that being on a show and being in that period would give us everything that we wanted, but in fact it took everything away. Yeah, I think that's fair. And also just the general, you know, just when you lose someone close to you very young, I think it's, you know, it's firstly, we've established that it's hard to process, but it also makes everything else seem like it's not a problem. So I developed this very blunt nature of like, if you had a problem, I wouldn't give a shit about your problem because it's not as big as my problem. You know, and it's kind of like, it's this strange thing where almost nothing matters.

52:36And, you know, like subconsciously after a few drinks, it's kind of like, oh, how do you feel about, you know, the binky situation? Well, I don't give a fuck about the binky situation because my brother died. You know, it's always there type thing. The binky situation is pointless and it's tiny and it's irrelevant, right? Because I lost my brother, you know? So there's bits of that that are always kind of there when you're a bit drunk. That's very honest. Well, yeah, but also it makes you... Yeah, but I've never heard you say that ever. Well, yeah, I don't think I have said it before. It gives you a lack of empathy as well.

53:13So I do have empathy, but it's not easily accessible. because your because your brother died i think it was so awful the fact that you've broken up with someone i don't care because it's irrelevant it's irrelevant who could care less yeah like you know it doesn't this doesn't affect anyone you know so what wow because because something like that affects but you know just just that's just a kind of thought that i just had the you know i think you can associate a lot of sense you can associate a lack of empathy with all kinds of stuff or lack of sympathy or lack of empathy. But, but I think that, I think that when you have gone through something really turbulent as a kid that you struggled to process for your entire childhood, almost everything else feel like your business goes bust.

53:55So what? My family is still alive. Yes, this is exactly a hundred percent, which I think that's exactly it. This is it. This is what I was saying at the beginning that I think because that happened to you at such young age, such a catastrophic disaster. But after that, you're just like, well, that doesn't matter compared to what happened when I was 10. I'm not chucking our friendship into that category. But when you come at it from that angle, it's kind of like, you know, to your point, imagine telling Theodore that there's a loss in the family or something, or, you know, heaven forbid you lose a child.

54:29You know, that happened to my parents, right? They lost one of their sons. And so I'm assuming that nothing could ever be as bad as that ever again in life, right? So you lose a friend along the way. I'm not sure it's going to feel like it matters very much. You know, that's kind of... Spend, that's it. That's exactly it, of course. And I can't believe I didn't even put one and one together. Like, that is the course of it. Because no wonder you were so blasé about so many things, because it doesn't matter, because I lost my brother. But it didn't matter to me. No, but that's what I'm saying. And, you know, if you think I'm a prick because of that, then so what?

55:00If something happened... So there was a lot of that in my teenage years. Like, oh, you've really upset this person. I don't care You know That kind of hard-nosed Like I'm Just going to do my thing And if it bothers you I couldn't care less Is something that I have moved through now Because I think now Because I'm just thinking If I lost Man if I lost Sophie I wouldn't care about anything I just wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't care Potentially ever again No I don't think I would I don't I would find I'm not By the way I'm not trying to find some blanket reason for having behaved the way I behaved in Made in Chelsea and stuff.

55:42I'm just drawing attention to the fact that as a young man, that was an easy, that was at the forefront of a lot of thoughts. It's like, oh, you know, it made it. And, you know, I spoke to a therapist once about the turbulent drinking, the nature of my drinking, right? Because at one point it was very hard and heavy. How bad was it? What day do you remember when even you went, this is bad, when it came to drinking? It got to a point where I began for the first time in my life to kind of black out a bit. Like I wouldn't know where I was. Like I'd come to and I'd be like just in some bar somewhere with people.

56:28And like sometimes I'd be like, I don't fucking know who that person is. like you know like so i i so i wouldn't be sure how i got to the place that i'm in that probably only happened like two or three times in my life but it happens it happened towards the very end of my alcohol abuse and there were times when i you know i think i've told you this before i would drink quite early in the morning like you know if i could walk past the liquor cabinet and there was nobody looking or nobody around i might have a sneaky shot of tequila or something at you know 9 a.m uh and then i'd go about my day and i'd lie to myself about stuff you know so you know And even sometimes Vogue would say like, have you had a drink today?

57:03And I'd just be like, no. You know, and all of a sudden you've got this, you're lying to the person that you love the most in the world. And it creates this slight, albeit slight, lack of trust. And all of a sudden you're living this like little lie and you know that it's wrong because, you know, you shouldn't be drinking spirits in the morning. um and it begins to have an effect on your self-worth right over time when you compound behavior like that over a long period of time you start to feel quite worthless because you you give yourself excuses to do it because you just go well you know i haven't got much on today or you know oh this is a this isn't a busy time of the year for for me and it doesn't really matter if I make it to this meeting or not, you know, and you start to take corners and you start to do less.

57:53And for me, that's like, that's real, like the house is burning down mentality and stuff. You know, I'm a million miles from there now. And, you know, I'm really thankful that I was able to achieve that.

58:14Going from a position which you were in, which is where you were drinking a lot, you were cutting corners, you were probably lying to yourself, lying to other people. And then being in the position you are now, you know, 30 marathons in 30 days, business, clean code business, great podcast, about to go and take on your next challenge, which is seven Ironmans in seven different continents. How different is your, for someone now, right, who's listening, going like they are maybe, maybe they're a casual drinker, but they're struggling with casual drinking or maybe they're a heavy drinker or maybe they're thinking about giving how different is your life then to what it is now?

58:53Mentally, everything. I felt like a slave before whereas now I'm in complete control and it stems from an immense feeling of self-belief like I look at things and think that I can do them not the other way around so i'm lucky in that regard but that comes from small steps regularly taken right so again it's compounded behavior like you can't go from being a heavy shameful drinker i'm calling this is myself not you know i'm not calling anybody listening a shameful drinker you can't go from that place in your life to being a world record holding endurance athlete very quickly you have to make little and consistent changes to your life.

59:45You have to walk. You have to get fresh air. You have to put the bottle down, stop drinking. You have to lift weights. You have to go running. You have to just build some physical strength. And mental health will follow as well, I believe. They're quite intertwined, the two things. I feel at my worst when I'm traveling and have a really full schedule and can't go to the gym. because even like me knowing you and being with you now like like this and we had like i said we haven't we've probably seen each other socially you know since the wedding socially once in two years yeah but being in your presence now right and like feeling your energy it's it's like your your energy is is like calm and considered you're you're like listening but also replying Like the Spencer that I knew when he was, you know, when you were drinking, wouldn't listen, wouldn't just think about what you want to do.

1:00:48Your energy is a much calmer sort of person to be around, which is, and you must feel that inside as well. You must feel way calmer in yourself. I feel great, mate. Yeah. Like I feel really, really switched on in an interesting growth period of my life. I feel like I'm a really good father, really good husband. uh and uh you know i found a great balance i'm not boasting it's just a big change from from the last time i saw you there's been an awful lot of change in in my life i'm not interested at all in drama of any kind i wasn't really interested in drama when we did made in chelsea it's part of part of the reason i fell out of love with it was just like oh my god like i don't i don't care about this person coming in and telling me this dramatic story i can give a shit you know type of thing um and so so it's kind of i don't know it's there there are i think when you begin to prioritize yourself and your family things kind of fall into play a bit more easily and certain things fall by the is it waistline or waist side waist side waist waist nothing to do with your waist waist side so nothing to do with your waistline the side of the way it's the way line Christ I've been saying waistline for ages I got a I got a message from your mum Yeah Because we started this episode right Talking about what we really want in life And actually I think what we all Typically want is to make our parents proud And people around us proud That's what we want to do right So I said to your mum I said hi Jane I hope you're well I have a rather large question To feel totally free to say no but Spen is on my podcast.

1:02:34Could you explain to me why and if you're proud of him? I love the and if. Yeah, imagine she just replies, no. And she said, she's so happy for you and Sophie. She said, we've always been proud of Spen. His nature and his ability to strike up a relationship with pretty much anyone. More recently, what he's achieved through his endurance challenges for admirable causes has been remarkable. he continues to surprise people and grow and we couldn't be more delighted with him as a son we enjoy a close loving relationship on a daily basis which makes us happy as parents we love spend vogue and their beautiful children enormously oh that's very nice i love the fact that she referenced we enjoy a loving relationship on a daily basis which makes her happy as a parent because i think that is that's probably that's probably your bit my biggest concern as a father that you don't do a good job and your kids want to be somewhere else, you know?

1:03:33Or your kids don't talk to you for advice. Has parenting made you understand your parents more? Yeah, absolutely. Parenting is incredible. I mean, it comes with plenty of frustration. It's awesome, but it's hard. You know, it's just, it's very, there's nothing more interesting in my opinion than watching the kids kind of like grow up and develop a character because they're so different and it's great. And you can have these like really awesome conversations with them now. But God, you carry a load of shit around the place with you like all the time. It's impossible to kind of... It's impossible to have these moments.

1:04:07I tell you, do you think Michael would be proud of you? I believe so. I think he would be now. It's funny that you've picked up on my kind of changes in character. I can feel it. I can feel it on you. I can feel it on you. It's funny. I will literally, and again, at the risk of sounding so boring, Like, you know, I will, I will, you know, the old me would just do whatever. Like, I won't have a double espresso at a certain time of the day because it might affect my sleep. Wow. And you and your peak, were you drinking how many espressos today? Oh, shit loads. But like, I would also drink, you know, hard alcohol until four in the morning.

1:04:40Has Vogue been a big part of wanting you to be better? Wanting to be more like Vogue has had a real impact on me becoming a better person. so I have I'm making a speech at my brother's 50th tomorrow evening and in it there's a passage about admiring people and how wonderful it is in life to have people to admire and when you admire people typically they influence you and you know over time again it's that act of becoming more like the person that you admire that makes you a better person, I think. You know, obviously people just grow up naturally as well and become more mature. But generally speaking, the people that you choose to admire will shape you in some way.

1:05:27Agreed. So what do you admire about Vogue? Her work ethic, how loving she is, what a wonderful mother she is. She puts the children first, always. she puts other people first but I've kind of learned that from her I generally speaking have always put myself first but she will always consider the other person she's a very empathetic person she's just a good heart, a good soul she's a great heart she's a beautiful person and she's very funny as well people prefer her to me people prefer her to me yeah well people prefer Sophie to me I suppose it's a good thing it's a great thing I've always found the, you're punching, when people tell me I'm punching, that's a compliment.

1:06:18It's always a compliment. But it's bizarre. People say it as an insult. It's weird. It's like, you're punching. What? So I'm doing better for myself than I should be. Yeah, I know. Thank you. I know. I 100%. The alternative is like, your wife is shit. Yeah, I know. That's the opposite. It's like, that's an insult. I'm laughing that I'm punching with Sophie.

1:06:43At the end of all of this, so are we friends? Of course. Okay, this has been great. Good. I'm glad. I'm glad that we got to clear the air and talk a bit. I mean, we do talk, so this isn't the first time we've spoken. It's the first time we've spent a couple of hours together. This is the first time. And the first time we've actually hashed out in certain ways. Listen, I'm about to go and do your podcast, Untapped, so everyone can go and listen to that one as well. But we like to finish with eight questions, quick fire. You ready for this? Eight? You ready for this? Are you sure you couldn't have made it 10 or just 8 questions?

1:07:14Here we go. What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? Honestly, anything Gigi says to me. So Gigi, I love all of my kids equally. It's really hard to love people equally. It is. It's almost like it is hard to love people equally, I think. Like, can you love two things exactly the same? Like, say you have two bikes, right? like two incredible bikes, you're going to have a favourite. You will have a favourite. Children and bikes is a weird combo. No, not really. Because I think the love is unconditional, unless they murder someone or something. But the love is unconditional, broadly speaking.

1:07:58So you'd have to do a lot to break the chains of the unconditional love. But within love, like in any marriage or any relationship, you always love the person, but it can be, you know, red hot and it can be a bit off sometimes. You know, like it's based around behavior. You know what I mean? You know, they're not always. Like it can be. So I think my... Whenever Gigi says to you that... My favorite kids, my kids swap for favorites. Sometimes Otto's the favorite, sometimes T's the favorite. Quite a lot of the time Gigi's the favorite. Gigi's the favorite, she's my little girl. Best compliment anyone's ever given you?

1:08:35They're proud of me, probably. When was the last time you cried? That's what I wanted to talk about. I can tell you when it was. When? That was the second example. Because it was the thing on the plane. Remember I told you two examples? Yeah. I cried when I left Spain to go to Jordan when the children were there with Vogue and just before the 30 marathons. So a year and a bit ago. That's the last time you cried. Yeah. Yeah. Mate, that's recent. that that that is super recent right so like i i cried yeah but proper crying though like holding vogue hugging vogue like like crying crying and that set her off and she was crying and it was so unusual because obviously i just don't cry but i knew that what i was about to take on was like a world first and it was big and i was going to be in jordan i wouldn't always have connection i'd miss my kids and they probably didn't know what i was about to do and And, you know, I hope nothing goes wrong.

1:09:30And I just had all these feelings of feelings. I had feelings. I had feelings. There you go. Can you imagine? I literally was like, it's great. That felt good to feel. What's something you can't let go of? Can't let go of? My brother. What's your guilty pleasure? Chocolate. Love chocolate. My God. Oh, I've. Fruit nut. You like a fruit nut. I like a fruit nut. I like a Tony's Chocoloni sea salt caramel. Yeah. What's your biggest turn off? Body odour. Turn off in what sense? Just with a person or my wife or she smells great. What turns you on? My wife. Nine years as well. We've been together soon.

1:10:15Can you imagine? Nine years. I still get turned on. What do you like most about yourself?

1:10:23That I have unwavering self-belief. I love my built in natural confidence and I love my ability to look at something and go I can do that how can we work towards doing that instead of I can't do that what can I do to make myself be able to do that it's the other way around Sven, I love you buddy you're the greatest that was amazing cheers, thanks wow wow yeah a lot there an absolute masterclass in how bad communication can get so horribly wrong But that's what I learned from this episode today is you just got to communicate that life's too short. Unless your friend has really done something terrible that you really can't forgive.

1:11:07Forgiveness and making up and being, you know, life's too short to have feuds and to be miserable with each other, I think. Well done for doing that today. And thank you for sharing it with us. I absolutely loved sitting in on that. And thank you to you for constantly listening and enjoying our show. So as I said before, if you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe. It does us absolute wonders, I cannot tell you. And also if you want to get in touch and let us know what you think of the show and what guests we should have next, you can email us greatcompany at jampodproductions.co.uk and we'll see you next week for another episode of Great Company.

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