TINIE TEMPAH: How a Kid From Peckham Went Multi-Platinum

0:00Coming from where I came from, I got the golden ticket. You grew up in the Ellsbury estate in Peckham, right? Which is one of the biggest estates in the whole of Europe. I'd basically climb up to where the observatory in Greenwich Park was, and there you can also see the whole city. Just go there at night by myself and I'd be like, how can I do this? Like, how? I want everyone in this city to know me. Like, this was like, wow, you know, all your dreams are about to come true. You cannot fuck this up. I'm Tiny Tempa and I'm in great company What was the moment where the music suddenly started You were like this is going to be something I put out this mixtape And it was called Hood Economics We sampled everyone Wrapped on Lily Allen's Can't Knock Them Out Wrapped on Calvin Harris I Get All The Girls I don't know if we're allowed to do that But most of you guys are my friends now And we've worked together So yeah don't come for me We started getting like relatively decent billings on some of the festivals.

0:58After I did my performance, like maybe about 50 % of the crowd left. The A &R was like, who's that guy? Then we started having conversations with record labels and that's when I was like, oh, maybe this is actually going to happen. 21 years old, you completely explode. I've been running on this adrenaline for so long and actually, wow, all the things that I wanted to achieve when I was 12 or 13 or 14, I've achieved it now. Like I bought Alexander McQueen's house when I was 24. kind of started getting into like bad habits. And I was just like, this is not who I necessarily was when I came into this.

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4:58Guys, big episode today. Big episode. Tiny Temper. Okay, I've been messaging Tiny Temper for a while and he's finally coming on. One of the biggest legends in the UK music scene had huge number ones. You know exactly who he is and he's coming on the show today. one thing I don't he's every single time I see him on stage he's topless and he's ripped so is he going to be wearing a t-shirt or is he going to be topless I don't know this episode it goes all over the place in so many amazing ways I'm so excited for you to listen so get ready for it now before you start if you can click that follow button it does amazing things for us and amazing things for you it means we can keep getting great guests make the show better for you and for us if you do that one thing click the follow button and join the community I thank you forever Okay, big episode Here we go Tiny temper on great company Do you like baths?

5:48Oh, I love a bath, man I need to ask you a big question Go on When you have a bath Yeah Do you sit in it naked And let the water run around you Or do you get into it when it's full? I wait till it's full It's got to be boiling hot as well Which I don't think is actually good for you I bet it's for the men I've been reading all this stuff about You need to put ice down there And stuff like that Yeah, you need to keep that area cool apparently um but yeah i wait it's boiling hot you get into when it's pulled up yeah the smoke has to be coming out and then i just step into it gently especially after a training session and i just but do you do that thing when you because what i don't i think it's real ick when you get in and you get in you have to do the thing and you have to lower yourself i do that but there's no one around to see there's no one around to see i'm not posting that on social media someone did say to me oh if you'd love baths all the time why don't you do a little segment on your social media where it's just you and a bath and then you're just talking about stuff maybe let me know what you guys think in the comments if i get enough comments i might do it you're pretty healthy right very when did that start when did your sort of focus on health so it's always been there um it started when i so in my career i kind of everything kind of took off when i was 21 so um as a result um i started touring a lot and the team around me at the time introduced me to a guy called Ruben Tabarez.

7:09Now, if you watch a bit of boxing, you might see Ruben Tabarez come out on some of the ring walks with heavyweight boxers, typically like the Derek Chisoras of the world. He used to do the strength and conditioning for David Hay. And he's just a phenomenal athlete. I think he used to do like hurdles or something in his time. And so the minute I started going on tour, my whole thing was I basically want to live my life like an athlete. like i'm an i'm an artist but i want to operate like an athlete um and he was like cool let's do it so i at 21 yeah at 21 yeah that's a wild yeah yeah way of thinking not really i like i think it depends i think coming from where i came from this was like you know i got the golden ticket like this was like wow you know all your dreams are about to come true you cannot fuck this up like you cannot but like there's nothing to fall back on it's not like you can go back to uncle or auntie your mom or dad or anything like this if you fuck this up if you become a one-hit wonder that's it you're done back to square one not the not the council mistake because our parents had moved us out of there by then but basically back to pretty much the trenches so for me i was like i want to do everything in my power to make sure that even if it does go wrong i can say to myself i gave it my all and my best so literally put ruben tabaras on a retainer it was way out of my budget at the time but I was like cool I'm investing in myself and we would go and train in this gym called The Vault and like I'd regularly bump into Keira Knightley in there just random fact I was not expecting you to say Keira Knightley of all people mate she loves to train I don't know if anyone knows she's on it I don't know if anyone you're gonna say Keira Knightley she's on it so I would regularly just see her in the corner but anyway so training like an athlete I would regularly join like boxing camps so some of the heavyweight boxers i'd go and visit them while they were doing their camps get involved maybe not the whole camp but participate for sure i guess all of that kind of conditioned me to like as to to the point where as i started to mature um as a man it just became like a standard normal practice yeah yeah it's amazing tanya because that like 21 years old you completely explode what kind of happens then is that you get introduced to lots of things alcohol, money, access, whatever it is.

9:31And it's very easy to shift off those tracks. Definitely. Without a doubt. 100%. I mean, 80, 90, maybe higher percent of people, they go down that road, right? Happens more often than not, yeah. Without a doubt. But you had that mentality to go, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to fuck this up. I'm going to stay on this track because this is my chance. Yeah, I'm going to win. Wow, man. Yeah, I'm going to win. And I think it was, you know, reflecting on it because I've done loads of, you know, I took a long hiatus, you know, when I got to 30, I took a hiatus for about maybe six, seven years, still did other things in the background in music and TV, et cetera.

10:05But it gave me, while I was like having my kids and whatnot, I'd spent a lot of time just reflecting on my life and the reasons why I also did a bit of therapy as well, which I think is really important. Yeah. Um, and I think it's something to do with like, I remember the therapist saying like, oh, your nervous system is maybe like it's been wired and programmed for survival. So you just have like these mad innate survival instincts. Also being the first child of a family of four, you know, parents who had immigrated from Nigeria in the late eighties, you know, very working class. I felt like everything was riding on me.

10:42And then also when you're black, I think this is sort of different to when you're white, you, you almost feel like when when the spotlight is on you you almost feel like you are representing like your whole like community your whole culture if that makes sense like when you're doing this podcast and you know just talking frankly and candidly I'm sure you're not thinking you know I'm doing this on behalf of like the whole white race like but for some reason and you can ask loads of people who are from similar places to where I'm from but that's how it feels and sometimes that's how you're almost made to feel as well.

11:17Can you break that down for me so I really understand it? And for anyone, like, so I get the sort of nuances, I get the understanding of it, but what is that deeper feeling? Why does it feel, why is there that, you feel like you have to represent your community? Because I feel now it's a lot more commonplace. I feel like the Black British kind of demographic is fully ingrained in British culture and society. It's very normalized now, but maybe when I started, it still was, but lesser so. But I think it was maybe something to do with that, the lack of representation from the community and then, um, not entirely, but maybe negative perceptions of certain aspects of the culture or the community.

12:01So when you get a spotlight on you, it's like, don't, you know, yeah, yeah. Don't fall into the status quo, you know, don't, don't let the side down. Like you said, you, you could fall into all of these different things and it doesn't mean don't have a good time but just basically don't let us down and i guess another way to look at it and like big up all my indian brothers and sisters but like i was watching instagram and someone made this uh they had this sort of anecdote about how there's a lack of like south asian football players right which i never really thought about but they're absolutely right but when i started thinking about if we use this as an example right if there was all of a sudden um an exceptional South Asian player that played for Arsenal tomorrow or Chelsea or Man United he would almost become like a do you get what I mean?

12:50He'd become a figure for people to for that community to look up for. Yes. So it's something like that. And it becomes a lot of pressure. When you have pressure in yourself it adds on top of the pressure. Yes. And so then you are in fight or flight the whole time because the adrenaline is going, going, going. Yes. And because that's because you said you had this idea you had to win you wanted to win this competitive nature right? Had to. Could never lose. Man, that is hard for anyone. It's hard to lose that, right? If you want to win the whole time, you're competitive, you compare yourself. Where is that from?

13:23Is that from your parents? Is that from your upbringing? Where does that come from within you? I think it's partly from my parents. I'd even say my mom more so than my dad. I think what I got from both parents who are still together is, you know, an environment that was very loving. um you know they gave us all the you know correct values and i feel like us as you know four kids from that family grew up with good virtues but my mom was always like she would never settle for the situation that we were in and i and i always saw that from her and as a kind of like tiny little woman i would see this like woman working like three or four jobs always frustrated at the fact that we were like in a council estate when i was in my early years from like one to ten like some I remember there was a next door neighbor and he basically in our council estate, he went to meet a girl by the bin shoot and then he got set up and he got stabbed, which is a very common, typical story.

14:22And then I remember when that happened, all I could hear was my mom saying, we have to move out of this situation. We have to move out of here. And then she had three jobs and then she started trading. So she'd go to Switzerland and she'd buy all these like fabrics, like satin and organza and all these different things that are quite prominent in the Nigerian community for like weddings, birthdays, stuff like that. She'd bring them back. She'd get a seamstress. She'd turn them into dresses. And then that's how she was able to sort of save up along with my dad for the first deposit for the first house.

14:54So then we moved deeper into South London, more into like the suburbs, kind of bordering Kent. And so I was like, oh, this is it. Like we've got a garden, you know, my next door neighbor's called Billy. Life is good. Do you know what I mean? But no, she wasn't settled. She was like, we need another one. We need to move to somewhere bigger. We need to extend this one. And then we need to move to another one. Then we're going to rent this one out. Then a couple of years later, next property. Then she'd be like, no, we need another one. We need to, and she would just never stop. Even to this day.

15:23Yeah. Never stop. Manchester, this, that. Like she's basically, you know, probably saying it for the first time. She's from someone who immigrated from Nigeria in the late eighties. She in her own right is a millionaire with no fame, no, like, you know, uh, you know, parents gave me this or that just a 50 something year old Nigerian woman, just striving, going, not stopping. So I think, I think some, it's something to do with that and everything she instilled in me. She basically treated me like, um, like her second husband. so from nine years old when she was when i was nine and she was doing all the trading that she was doing she would bring me along to those trips i'd be in the factories in switzerland i'd see her haggling with the owner of the factory oh please you know you said wholesale price would be this why so i'd be watching all of it when she upgraded from her voxel astra to a mercedes c180 i was probably about 11 you remember it yeah then she took me up to sheffield somewhere where she bought the car and then she was like watch what the car dealer is saying like tell me what all the buttons mean because I don't understand so I was super young just almost being forced into some people would maybe argue and say oh you didn't get to have that like childhood but I think it kind of worked out quite well because I was I was just forced to grow up very early on so I'd say it was partly because of that and then what an amazing woman yeah and then I'd also say it was probably the reality of the environment around us.

16:53I think, you know, for my first couple of years, obviously, you know, no better. So it's just your normality. You have your friends, you have your family, life is good. But as I started to kind of, you know, living in Peckham at the time, as I started to kind of understand the environment I was in, even though Peckham is super trendy now, it's lovely. But at the time, you know, nineties, et cetera, I was just like, there are you know the great thing about london is everything is kind of juxtaposed right so even if you're in chelsea and you're living in three five seven ten million pound houses a couple of a mile away at least there's going to be a council estate it's going to be a block of flats not even a mile away yeah exactly there's going to be social housing and i think it's i think i you know thank god that i was born in london because to be able to see that contrast very early on made me think, wait, why are we living here and we're not living there?

17:47But there's people that live there and they're getting on with their lives. Okay, how can I go from here to there? So I think it's the combination of the two. But explain, because you grew up in the Ellsbury estate in Peckham, right? Which is one of the biggest estates in the whole of Europe. Yeah. Right? And you describe it where you used to live on a high floor up and you used to see across London so you could see the houses. Yeah. And you used to say to yourself, why am I not living there? Yeah, always. How do I get there? like you said you live in your environment right and you've got your mom who's always striving for more more more to find your way out of that riddle to get your way out of that jigsaw and like put the pieces together together how do you do that because someone listening right now who looks up to you right who you're their complete inspiration because maybe they're living in the same place you were how do you get out of that spot or how do you persuade someone that this is not the be on end or you can get out of this um i think now more so than when i was growing up it's it's better to be able to adopt that mindset because we have, we have more to look at via social media.

18:45Do you get what I mean? Sometimes to a kind of like to a detriment because you end up seeing things that are going to be very hard to attain. Do you get what I mean? Or someone's always living a better life or having some sort of, you know, based on perception, better experience. But I think where we didn't have that, I did have to kind of look out of my block of flats and see the houses. Whereas now you could just scroll on your feed and there's millions and millions of examples and even tutorials, how tos, courses. You had nothing. Whereas before I had nothing. You had books, you had to go to the library.

19:17Yeah. And I also had Nigeria and I'll explain. So the thing about going back, so once a year I'd go back to Nigeria and would fly to Lagos and would drive about six hours and go to the village where my parents grew up, which is in the Southeast in, in a town called Asaba, right? And that's where, for example, with, you know, my, my grandparents had built a block. So they had a block, they lived at the top of the block, and then they had tenants and all of the other flats, but they still had basic things. Like we'd still have to go to like a main water source, for example, get the water, take it up to the block.

19:54And then we had one uncle who had done very well for himself. He used to go back and forth to Brazil and then he set up a factory in Brazil and he was selling shoes. So I could see the contrast in Nigeria of someone who lived in a compound or an estate with a gate and a gateman, security guard, 10 cars in their driveway. And then I could see the kid on the street who's sitting on a skateboard with his arm missing. So I think going there and seeing, being overstimulated by what you saw and I guess how people would be treated as a result was also something that kind of resonated with me that kind of made me think in this kind of way.

20:32What's your mum's name? Rosemary. Man, we're a hero. Yeah, she's going to be on the next Extraordinary Extension, so you'll see her on there. Is she really? Yeah, and my dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exclusive, exclusive. What's your dad called? Patrick. Patrick. What do you think they taught you, apart from drive and always bettering yourself and always trying to, like, you've got to do more, you've got to keep going. What else? What other things did they instil within you, do you think? I think they instilled faith within me. So like a fear and appreciation and an acknowledgement of God and a creator and a higher being.

21:05And I guess the idea that we're here for like a temporary time and we're just like one blip in this universe, you know, of so much vastness and greatness. And that's something I think that kind of anchors me and keeps me very humble. Have you always been religious? Yeah, always. You've never lost your faith at any point? No, I've kind of maybe not focused on it so much over a period of time, but I've never like lost it and said, oh, I've become, you know, agnostic or I'm, you know, I'm not. You know what's funny? It's like, I used to go to church as a kid a lot, right? And my auntie, Lottie, shout out Lottie, amazing.

21:40She's very religious. So when we spent time with our cousins, it was always church every Sunday. Here we go. And when I went to school, it was always church. I had church every evening. I boarded, right? Yeah. So church every evening and a big service on a Sunday. Yeah. and so what happened is because I was kind of driven towards that I kind of was like it became it's like telling a kid to go and watch opera yeah of course you don't want to do it yeah you start to reject it I reject it I push it away and now later in life you know every morning every evening I pray that's great and I don't know who or what I'm praying I just I'm making I'm just praying for contentness and happiness and love and all this stuff and I feel like I'm living a happier better life from starting doing that 100 % because it's definitely not going to be material things.

22:22It's not going to be material things that's going to keep you happy. It's not even, you know, forgive me for saying this, going to be people. Do you get what I mean? People are fantastic, you know, but they're fickle. Do you get what I mean? One minute it's this, maybe your best friend at school or the crew that you hang around with at school, maybe there's one or two of them now that maybe have survived, you know, the friendship or the relationship. And then the rest, you probably don't even talk to them anymore. Do you get what I mean? So when you look at it like that, And then I also look at things like the complexity of the eye, for example, this did the eyes, the eyes that we're using to look at, there's still no camera.

22:58It doesn't matter who's behind the Apple or Samsung or whatever. There's still no camera that is as sophisticated as the eye. I look at the complexity of the brain. Like what even is that? How, what did that just happen? Did it just, so when I, when I conceptualize things like that, I'm like, okay, cool. there's definitely a creator or like photosynthesis or all these mad things that they can be explained but there's obviously clearly a designer do you get i mean there's some or some you know maybe it's not a but there's a design um so when i look at it like that i'm like okay cool i i think more people are moving back to religion because the world that we're living in is is a pretty tough place and we kind of want to know there's more or there's something else 100 rather than just leaving it to nothing.

23:44100%. I think it's the, especially when I've had kids, right? And I think about my kids. For me, I want to definitely put that faith over to my children. Yeah, me too. But I don't know how to do that in the right way. And how have you done that with your kids? So I also don't have the answer for that. I've put them in a relatively religious school. And even what you just said earlier is kind of scaring me because they have to go to church a lot. like the the person running their schools are none do you get i mean it's the whole shebang yeah it's the whole shebang so i i one of my daughters she already kind of like oh church on sunday we go every day at school but i think all i can do is show them by the way i live and i'm an imperfect person to get me and i'm definitely flawed i'm definitely trying to work on myself every day but i think your parents ultimately will influence will have an influence over you and also the company that you keep 100 will have an influence on you more than you can kind of quantify so i'm just trying to live as much of a righteous life as possible and then introduce all of the concepts to them and then what they do with it over time is up to them but i i i remember feeling how they felt when i was getting dragged to church every sunday and now you know at my age now i'm like okay cool you know god at the center of everything i do so i just hope you know their their mom is religious their grandmas are religious their grandparents are relatively religious so hopefully yeah

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26:02Coffee only briefly blocks adenosine, the chemical that tires you out. When it stops working, your system is flooded and you crash. Modafinil is a prescription treatment that works in a completely different way. Modafinil works by stimulating multiple receptors in the brain associated with wakefulness, including dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, histamine, glutamate, and orexin. it's a more complete solution that gives you 10 to 12 hours of steady focus and energy to learn more go to mod.com fill out your intake form meet with a licensed provider and if approved mod alert ships straight to your door go to mod.com to get started that's mod.com therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough it shows up in the smallest moments.

26:56You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends.

27:37You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Do you believe in manifestation? Absolutely. That's also how I got where I am. Tell me, what have you manifested? Everything. I've manifested being here with you, Jamie. thought you freaking heard but have you everything like because manifestation is wild yeah yeah yeah so when i think that that is aligned with faith 100 yeah 100 just speaking things into existence like um when i was a lot younger i read the secret and when i read the secret that changed my life and that's literally before maybe about a year before i released my first album and i'd say a lot of the secret is positive thinking absolutely um that's one uh example of it and then when i used to live in so after we moved from peckham to plumpstead i'd go down to greenwich which is not far away from plumpstead and i'd i'd basically climb up to where the observatory in greenwich park was and there you can also see the whole city so this is now fast forward for me looking out from the blocks to the houses now i'm in the observatory looking at the whole city you always had this vision this like you wanted to see the horizon.

29:14Yeah, that's why the first album, the artwork is like that, of me just holding like everything. Yeah, because I'd literally... Because you would see the... You would see the... That's it, the horizon. Flat like this. See everything. Trains moving. I'd just go there at night by myself and I'd be like, how can I do this? Like how... I want everyone in this city to know me and like know what I do. And I was probably like 15, 14, 15, 16. So explain this. You would go by yourself at night. You would stand there and you would basically talk to the universe and say, I want this city to know who I am.

29:42I want this city like how am I going to do this how like look at how vast this city is look at all the lights look at all how many people are in here okay how do I do this and I just think and think and I did it on at least more than more than 10 occasions man you know because your first single Pass Out right straight to number one February 2010 92 ,000 copies sold in its first week yeah not bad that's it it feels pretty good yeah did you know when you were writing it was going to be a hit No. So it's funny actually. So I actually had another record that, you know, the label at the time were like, you know, this is going to be the hit and Pass Out was meant to be like a specialist warmup song, underground song.

30:27so when I when I wrote it at the end at the end of the session we were playing the song over and over again and typically like I've been doing this a long time after you've been in a long session for like 12 hours when the session's done you just switch off the thing and you just come back in the next day with fresh ears yeah yeah but this track after me and Lab had made it we were just listening to it over and over again and there was another artist who walked into the room and he just stopped in his tracks and he was like so i knew we had something special he just knew he was like this is good yeah he was like this is good but good doesn't necessarily mean a hit do you know i mean so i didn't to be honest i didn't know it was a hit but as soon as it went into the into the universe it just kind of did what it did i love that image of you standing on greenwich and looking above at the horizon just going right this how am i going to do this how man because That's like, again, it's, you know, it's really like inspiring for younger kids to hear that.

31:25That's good. It really is because I think sometimes, I think sometimes what happens is that we expect a lot. Definitely me as a kid from a privileged background. Like the one thing that I didn't think a lot of the time was I didn't realize how much hard work you have to put in in order to succeed. So hard. So hard. So hard. It is so, so hard. And it just gets harder and harder. It gets harder and harder and harder. And people think what's going to happen is that someone's going to open a door and say, hey, we've been expecting you. Come on in. Never. Never happens. You have to work. You have to go.

31:56You have to push for it. And you're that prime example of hard work and that manifestation and looking at it and saying, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to achieve this. And if you fall, there's going to be no one there to go. Oh, Jamie, don't worry. No ways. Come on. Yeah, let's get you back up there. Mate, you're on your own. That's why I say in Parsa, I walk alone because I was born alone. Like I very early on in my life, I really did understand that. But like you're saying, maybe it's something to do with the upbringing and not necessarily... My parents definitely tried for us. They took us to Orlando.

32:28What's that? Universal Studios. Yeah, Disneyland. My parents tried, man. We went on good holidays. Well, mainly Nigeria, but we went on good holidays. They tried to get us nice things. And you saw them working hard? Yeah, saw them working so hard, man. Three, four jobs, trying to find other ways to make money. Like it was relentless. Just going back to growing up in the estate, do you still have friends from the estate? I still have friends from the area, not the estate. Really? Yeah. So like, cause obviously I went to school in that area. I went to St. Francis in Peckham. So I still talk to like, yeah, loads of the kids.

33:03I mean, how many kids do you think made it out of the estate? Not very many to be fair. And actually, thanks. Like you've reminded me. Um, one of the kids, he was like one of the best at football. His name was Philip Poru, rest in peace. And actually what was really sad is, um, as Passat had kind of come out, I remember reading like a local newspaper in like, uh, for Greenwich that Philip had gone to meet a friend in Woolwich, which is near where Plumstead was. And he was basically set up and then he was shot and he was, and this was a guy that was in my year in primary school used to be the best at football when i when i think about him i think about me standing in a line and he would be the guy who would like pick all the players for the team like you you come on my team you come on this and like yeah while pass out was taken off he's his life yeah had ended so yeah i don't want to tell that like typical story but just in reality yeah i don't think many people man you know it's so it's like there's a great book called outliers I don't know if you've ever read it Outliers You should read it It's an amazing book It's all about the outliers in life That lead us to certain places And basically it's a whole thing about luck and timing There's a lot of luck and timing It's hard work, 100 % forget So all of that But there's a lot of it down to luck and timing Where you were at a certain time Who your parents were Where you were next to How you get out of the place So my question to you is Who's your outlet?

34:29Who was that inspiration for you? Who did you admire growing up? You're like, I want to go and do music I want to go and follow that That's where I want to go How did you get into that space? So in like British, it would have been someone like a Dizzy Rascal, who's maybe like a couple of years older than me. He was someone who, while I was listening to pirate radio, I was like obsessed. This was the time where you would hear the artists, but you wouldn't be able to see them. Do you know what I mean? Pre-social media. Yeah. So in my mind, because I've got quite a big imagination. I can feel that on you, by the way.

35:04it's what I can feel like even your visual of seeing your friend and I can see you visualizing yeah yeah I'm really good at that so I used to imagine and obviously the stories they'd tell I'd feel I feel were more pertinent because you couldn't see them so you'd imagine it and like okay wow look they're talking about this life that it's just crazy I'd say it was him I'd say it was so solid crew as well yeah uh obviously 21 seconds went to number one in like 2001 or two or three. So I was maybe 12 at the time. So I think seeing that was my first example. I'm sure there were, no, there definitely were some before, but in my time, that was my first example of like black British success on a commercial level, like comparable to anyone else.

35:48So, SoSoliCrew, you are number one. I don't know who, whoever at the time, uh, blur or the whoever is number three. you are in the same thing as that so once I saw that I was like oh okay so it's possible then and if it's possible I'm going to try and pursue that you got at school right you're smart you got the grades you got every university you go to but you decided not to do that you decided to pursue music right that's kind of like what were your parents saying at the time because your parents were hustlers they've been working their butts off they're like you got to be better better better I imagine the music industry is an industry that you go into right where There is no plan B.

36:28You have to give it all. And it's not a stable industry. Yeah, it's not. So what are your parents saying? Those two years, my extended gap year, it was hell. It was hell for me. Was it really? Yeah. So at first I was like, oh, mom and dad. I was getting all of the acceptance letters, like the long, big ones. And I'd just shove them under my bed like this. Where were you accepted? Everywhere? Everywhere. Like every uni that I applied for. I didn't apply for Uxbridge or anything like that. But within my capacity, all of the unis that I went for, I got into. And I remember kind of putting all of them under the bed and I was like, oh, mom, dad, I'm going to do a gap year.

37:05So they were like, what's a gap year? What are you talking about? I was like, oh, basically, I'm going to just focus on music. Of course, they can't force me to go. So they kind of just were cold for a little bit. And then when that gap year turned into two years, I got hell. Yeah, I'm the eldest of four. So you're the leader? Yeah, so I'm the leader. So then now it's like, oh, you're, you know, you're a bad influence on your siblings. Just, and then, and then to be honest with you, like I was doing the typical teenager thing, right? So I was waking up at like 12 p.m. in the afternoon. I wasn't like music.

37:40Where's the structure of music? You know, you just go to the studio. It's not like I'm employed by anyone. It's not like I've got gigs or anything like that. Yeah, so you can't see the, the growth isn't visible. Yeah, it's not visible. I'm just, yeah, typically like in the house or out of the house. I'm doing my best, but you're like, yeah like what are you actually doing where's the money where's the what's going on yeah so um yeah then it got really bad like it got really bad to the point where my manager at the time was like if you want your parents to respect what you're doing you're gonna have to treat it like a nine to five so even if you're not doing anything still wake up at 9 a.m do you get i mean still leave your house at 9 a.m with an intention of doing something making something happen be back in by 3 by 5 p.m and have a structure to your life um that's hard that's self-discipline yeah exactly especially at that time 18 19 do you get what i mean but yeah it was it was really tough man but luckily 2021 we were good so what was the moment where the music suddenly started you're like this is going to be something um so basically i put out uh this mixtape and it's it was called Hood Economics and it was all based on Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, which is kind of essentially in a succinct way.

38:53If you basically pursue in a capitalist kind of way your own progress, then your own progress, sometimes you have to be selfish to pursue your own progress, which will by default kind of inspire others to do the same. So this is me kind of thinking, not like all of my community needed this because there's loads of successful people from my community but this was sort of my mindset in terms of like rap and like grime and okay forget the whole crew thing just go about it alone and go on your own mission and once you make it or you get to a certain point that will by default inspire other people so i made this mixtape hood economics and we sampled everyone i even sampled the guinness advert at the time do you remember that

39:37big guinness advert i rapped on that rapped on lily allen's can't knock them out wrapped on Calvin Harris, I Get All The Girls. Very eclectic mix of music. And then we pressed it and it was in HMV. I don't know if we're allowed to do that, but most of you guys are my friends now and we've worked together. So yeah, don't come for me. Yeah, but it was in HMV and we had a very DIY approach. We were selling them out the back of the car. Were you really? Yeah, every little gig that we got, a couple hundred quid, come and perform in Luton or High Wickham or Bucks, somewhere in Bucks. we'd take all the cds and we'd be selling them to the point where we'd sold 10 000 copies it's a lot yeah it's a lot so once we sold 10 000 copies then um we got a booking agent and then from the little shows we started getting like relatively decent billings on some of the festivals so now for the first time i'm playing wireless but i'm playing like the third stage and at a rogue time and then and then and then something happened where um there was an a and r that was in the crowd because one of their artists was um on before me yeah no on after me so uh by coincidence they were in the tent i was playing and through my i was doing a bit of social media at the time i was on youtube i had a little jvc which i referenced you used to have your camera yeah yeah and i had this blog on wordpress.com called milk and two sugars because i like tea um and so i'd i'd use this little jvc that i'd saved up money from one of the shows from and then I'd film my whole life.

41:11So I've met JME today and he's doing this. I've met Bashi today and I'm shooting it from the perspective as of a young artist who's basically trying to be like these guys and integrate into that. So you're like vlogging in a way before vlogging was even really a thing. It's all there. The evidence is online if you want to go and check it out. You were the first vlogger. I was. You and Zoella. No, honestly. Guys, honestly, I'm telling you something here. I'm not joking. It's all there if you want to go and check all the dates. before everyone um so basically um when that a and i was in the crowd um i performed and maybe a combination of the selling the mixtapes the tour the gigging um and the vlogging my tent was packed it was packed i didn't even have like a actually i had one or two songs that they might have known a song called wifey which i released when i was 16 which people are still sampling and using to this day aj tracy unknown t etc etc you were only 16 when i was 16 yeah yeah yeah um crazy a writer's one called wifey when you're 60 i know random big imagination right big imagination um so basically um after i did my performance the act who was signed to a major record label came on and like maybe about 50 of the crowd left so when 50 of the crowd left the a and r of that artist was like who's that guy you know it's a ruthless industry yeah so they were like who's that guy We want that guy.

42:34Yeah. Then they reached out. Then we started having conversations with record labels. And that's when I was like, oh, maybe this is actually going to happen. Oh, man. Yeah. When you work so hard towards something. Yeah. You want it to happen. And you go, in your head, you're going, I know this is going to happen. Yeah. But there's always that little bit of doubt. Of course. I mean, whoever you are. Of course. Unless you're, I don't know. There's always a little bit of doubt. 100%. So when it starts actually happening and you start to see it go, it must be like this hard work. those like hours of putting the effort in the routine that I put in the the the parents getting angry at me oh man it's actually happening yeah but what happened at during that time was actually magical because it wasn't so much of an excitement it was more of a kind of uh understanding like okay everything you've ever wanted is finally happening and then like I said at the beginning of the podcast like don't fuck it up like it's finally here so it wasn't like oh yeah I've made it let's go and like drink champagne and do this and do that and start hanging out with this person and that person it was like you've wanted the work for so long this is when the work begins dude and i think maybe at the time i saw like a 50 cent interview where he said oh you know people think that the more successful you become it gets easier it actually gets harder and harder so maybe it was a snippet from that that also resonated with me at the time and i just kind of took it all in my stride so ever because i believe that anything you put your mind to if you are of good sound mind yeah i think you can actually do it yeah which is why you know when i was on my hiatus i was like i might take up jujitsu you know i got inspired i met tom hardy he was like yo come and train in this gym where i train come and pick up jujitsu and now i've like done several competitions i've won several medals i've been doing it for seven years and it's it's such a you you have to be so dedicated at jiu-jitsu to get good at jiu-jitsu you can't just watch a tutorial and get good at it you have to actually be in the field so i'm i'm of the mindset and i understand that everyone doesn't have this mindset but anything you put your mind to and that you believe with all your heart it might not happen when you expect it to happen but it can happen eventually firstly um i would fuck you up if we rolled is it do you reckon oh yeah let's see let's see what about are you do you do it as well okay well i did it for a bit not good enough then the answer is no you would not i tell you i was waking up every morning and fighting people i was like this is hectic it's good for you man it's really good yeah it's good for you it de-stresses decompresses me 100 without a doubt but what's interesting which i think okay so i'll be a little bit honest right maybe um because i because i grew up like a privileged privilege right i had a roof over my head i didn't have to worry about the mortgage we go on nice holidays yeah i had that mentality a little bit when i was younger that it was if something became hard whatever oh i was i was a natural sportsman so i was good at sports so i didn't find anything i found work quite tricky right because i was dyslexic adhd so what happened was is in my 20s i kind of just like if something became i wanted to become an actor right i went was going to go to the rado audition realized i had to learn a whole sonnet and all these things i'm not going to go do that so i go and made in chelsea right it's a shortcut yeah What I realized then in my 20s is when you take a shortcut, you always have to play the long game at some point.

45:55Eventually, of course. Eventually, you have to do it. That's why I don't take any shortcuts. That's what I was going to ask you, right? Because shortcuts, people always try and find a shortcut. Shortcut is the worst thing to do. And like with jiu-jitsu, jiu-jitsu is all about, you can't watch a YouTube video, you can't cheat your way to a black belt. Impossible. You also, in a way, with jiu-jitsu, for my limited knowledge, you have to sort of start with the feet, the legs. You have to get control of the legs, right? Absolutely. So it's the bottom up. Yeah. And you've done that. You've felt that.

46:21You've had that. You've been at the bottom to work your way up. So you've never taken a shortcut. Never taken a shortcut. I don't believe in it. And there's people around me or people that I've grown up with, friends, even certain family members that are happy to take the shortcuts. Do you get what I mean? Some of my friends I'll talk to, they're like, the system's rigged, man. And it's rigged against us, especially. So any shortcut I can see, I'm going to take it. But what I found, and I'm only in my 30s, but what I found is nine times out of 10, some people make it to the promised land 100 do you got me but nine nine out of the 10 people eight out of the 10 people they've always had to come back and take the long way without a doubt yeah without my biggest advice everyone else don't take that shortcut yeah don't take it it's not worth it it's not worth it because then in the five ten years when you haven't taken the shortcut you'll be the one winning and the person who's taking the shortcut is paying back for that absolutely and i feel like you um i feel like the delayed gratification it sits better in you in your being as a person.

47:18Do you get what I mean? Because if you've really, you know, gone through the motions, taken your time, built something one day at a time, slowly, slowly, slowly, and then you're now sitting on this kind of giant infrastructure, it's kind of more like, yeah, of course I am. Like, why wouldn't I be? Because I've put all of the work in. I've paid the cost to be the boss. Yeah. So you've had seven UK number ones, it's more than Beyonce, Drake, and that is that's elite level i think so yeah i'm now internalizing that before i used to be shy and be like oh shucks but hey man yeah i guess it is yeah and and i want to get into this right because when i spoke to uh katherine ryan i think it was she oh man she's the best yeah she said to me she said when she went to her first gig when she was becoming a comedian the tour manager said to her this is going to be the funnest time this is going to be your best time because what happens is when you start getting the success you've wanted one to wait then you get it yeah then you're afraid to lose it yeah and you have to hold and that's almost even more pressure it is did you feel that i did yeah i'll never forget that first um call i remember we were sound so glamorous now bloody hell life is good um we were in like we were driving around by the chanzelize and i got like a call from the accountant and like he said kind of two things in one breath and he was like oh you know oh the album's gone to number one congratulations and so it was like a it was a confirmation that like all of this hard work had paid off and then he was also talking about where we were at financially and we'd now you know crossed over into a new tier of like finances like obviously you can probably imagine it gone from like thousands to you know okay you're now there like you're you know 20 23 or something like that and then you're thinking wow like oh my goodness this is amazing i will never forget that feeling and then what happens subsequently is you're almost it's like you've climbed the mountain and now there's a bigger mountain right behind you and now you're trying to climb that one knowing that there's going to be a bigger one after and then on top of that you get more stakeholders do you get me and so there's more people that are kind of involved in what you're doing and so you're getting pulled in all these different directions which is why i took the hiatus as well because you kind of like lose yourself in all of it and i just found myself like one of the reasons why i bought my own studio eventually is because I found myself in these swanky studios in Chiswick that people were paying out the arse for.

49:42And I'd see like the A &Rs and all the stakeholders just like through the glass while I was recording. I just see them there and I would feel so nervous and so anxious. And I was like, this after a while, I was like, this is not what music is about. This is not why I got into this before. I used to go around my mate's house, have some fun, and we'd end up with a song. Now I'm here nervous as shit to not let anyone down, to not disappoint anyone. I didn't even know these guys five years ago. And now like my whole being is centered around making sure that they're happy. So I think what Catherine Ryan's manager was saying is absolutely right.

50:19The first time is kind of like the purest time. Yeah. Because nine times out of 10, it happens. Because there's only hope really. There's like, you're going towards something. Yeah. And then after that, you're almost trying to recreate what you did or outdo what you've done which is a whole different set of you know yeah thought so you said you did therapy yes i i've done therapy yeah i encourage i like encourage everyone to go to therapy if you can afford it yeah dabble in it why did you go um because i remember getting to like 27 or 28 and again i was just like oh i've been running on this adrenaline for so long and actually wow all the things that I wanted to achieve when I was 12 or 13 or 14 I've achieved it now so what happens now do you know I mean what what do I do now where do I go from here and how do I keep going um and then there was at first like a kind of sports therapist who like assisted and supported loads of like major athletes in their kind of journeys and then there was more of like a traditional therapist um interesting the sports athlete because you were talking to sportsmen who have achieved the gold medal whatever it is and then they're like what do i do next exactly exactly um so yeah you were feeling a bit low um yeah i was feeling a bit low and i was feeling a bit kind of um what's the word motivated um yeah i'm motivated i'm motivated and kind of just like okay cool i want to i now want to enjoy all the spores of my success, but I'm still mad young.

51:50Like, and I don't really know what I want to do beyond this point. Maybe I should go and talk to someone about it. Do you get what I mean? And then sometimes I guess, yeah, just being transparent, I guess like I bought Alexander McQueen's house when I was 24. Right. So I'm living in Alexander McQueen's house and I'm kind of sitting there and I'm just like, how can I explain it? I kind of started getting into like, not crazy habits, but I kind of started getting into like bad habits and i was just like this is not who i necessarily was when i came into this like i remember like i would like laugh at people that were like this do you get i mean or i would not respect people that were like this so how can i keep on going and i guess just to kind of give you more of a context a family member of mine brilliant a brilliant guy got into radar very humble beginnings got into radar did radar and then at the end of it i remember his whole thing was i used to say to him i like what do you want to do and he's like i is he used to say i want to play king henry the eighth and i'd be like yeah but bro king henry the eighth is white bro like like what are you talking about he's like nah like he's the way he was thinking yeah at that time like we were like 14 15 16 17 that kind of age he was like ahead of his time and then after he came out of radar tried to um get roles didn't get roles this is just before the explosion we've seen of like damson idris and david oyelowo and david johnson and all these kind of guys um wasn't getting any roles and then he started following this crowd or fell into this sort of crowd where they started like doing like hard stuff do you get i mean without going into too much detail like dabbling hard stuff and then everything just curtailed after that and just went in the complete opposite direction and you know i'm sure he's going to bounce back because he's a genius but is now not in a good place and so this is someone that me and him were like this yeah and and deck literally we were like tied at the hip and now i don't see him anymore and i haven't seen him properly for years so i think and you can see yourself maybe drifting yeah maybe not to that extremity because i am a very disciplined person but you could feel your discipline dropping you could feel that you're getting into bad habits and i was enjoying i feel like i was enjoying spoils i was thinking of like the tortoise and the hare and i was like i'm enjoying these spoils too early and i'm thinking that everything's plain sailing and it's going to be like this forever but i'm still young so i need to keep working but i'm now demotivated to work and i'm sitting in this big house kind of thinking that i've made it nah this is not good and like look at what just happened to like my closest friend if this has happened to him we're not too dissimilar it could probably happen to me i need to check in check in and change it yeah 30 years old you take this hiatus for someone who wants to win and i'm touching this before like i admire you man because i i looking at myself or my friends or people i know there are definitely people that if i was to speak to myself i'd say take a break take a break reset understand where you're going yeah otherwise you're on this hamster wheel and you're going yeah and i admire the fact that you did that that must have been hard yeah to make that decision the person the competitive nature in the wanting to win yeah maybe the idea especially with the music of not to be forgotten yeah all that talk me through that moment um it was a combination of quite a few different things so um obviously i was in a situation now where i was kind of like thinking about all settling down and having kids and and that can do that to you yeah um and i was kind of enjoying that like i was you know at the time i was very much like oh wow you know someone actually likes me for me and it's not really about everything else that probably everyone else likes and everyone else wants and i kind of really like relished in that and i was in i've probably enjoyed it a bit too much actually i was like oh this is great um that's beautiful yeah it is beautiful it's beautiful i'm grateful i'm thankful to god absolutely it's beautiful because not everyone gets to experience that.

56:03Um, and so that was probably part of it. And then there was also like, you've been a front man and you've been like pulled in all these different directions after your success. Yeah. That like, do you even understand totally the business you're in? Like, like, you know, I didn't go to university. So this was an opportunity for me to like, I set up a publishing company at the time. And then that's when I had to like, understand totally what I was doing, understand every contract that maybe in the past i would have skimmed over and just looked at the check and been like hell to the yes like let's go um i took on management like of other artists which i wouldn't do again but like managing people is hard oh my goodness it's hard it's hard sorry to all the managers out there but like yeah um so i kind of took on all these other things and for me it was still challenging and interesting but just not me being on this hamster wheel where i'd seen the burnout of so many people that come before me or seen that drop off the edge of the cliff into complete obscurity so i was like okay cool like seven number ones or whatever at the time i've done pretty well it's going to be hard to kind of like top this let me just get into publishing so we got into publishing and then one of the first records that we were part of was passion fruit for drake so one of the producers that we signed guy from hackney you know a couple years into our working relationship sent drake a beat drake was like i love this and then he makes passion fruit which i believe is his third biggest record of all time so i'm like yes i'm good at other stuff as well this is good yeah and then we like we've done stuff for alicia keys we've done some stuff for dave for central c so all this stuff like one day come to the studio you'll see all the plans i would fucking love that yeah yeah so we did all that stuff in the background never ever spoke about it never ever posted it never really until now like hadn't really spoken about so i was like okay cool i'm good at other stuff tried the management didn't really work out had this kind of creative agency where we got like models that had come from similar backgrounds to me we had them walking for like dolce and gabbana in milan and stuff like that just really like good looking young people but maybe they didn't have the conventionals like modeling agency so doing all this stuff set up a clothing brand parked it off currently but it will probably come back at some point but then realize the complexities of that and how hard that was um so just wanted to try loads of different things you're investing doing shows yeah investing doing shows taking up jiu-jitsu traveling like just stuff that was more like centered around what i wanted as opposed to what i thought i wanted amidst my shareholders and stakeholders Do you get what I mean?

58:44You know what I love is that you can talk about your successes, but you're also having to talk about the failures. That didn't work. 100%. And that's okay. Yeah. Failure is cool, man. 100 % of the time. Yeah, man, it's part of the process. But why is failure cool to you? Why do you think it's a good thing to happen? Well, in one of my new records, I say, I've been cheered, I've been booed. Like, pulling up in twin coops, been cheered, I've been booed. All this sore sight accrued. Fans getting tattoos. Glad I ain't nothing like you. like so for me if i if i hadn't gone through the being berated or feeling like you failed and having like a hot face and being embarrassed feeling like you have to go away for a bit and come back i don't think i would have the minerals to still be here today do you get me and i think i think it kind of makes it makes the man it makes the woman do you get i mean if you're able to fail and get up from your failure and keep going.

59:37And keep going. Like, that's also how you learn. Because for me... And it makes you humble. Yeah, and it humbles you. Without a doubt. It makes you a kind, humble person. Because you know it could go either way, right? And you know that sometimes it's within your control, sometimes it's not. So it just kind of is what it is. And dude, you did Dragon's Den. Yeah, I did. And I haven't ever, I haven't said this to anyone yet. I've just done Dragon's Den. Have you? Yeah. Come on, mate. Come on, mate. We are more alike than we think. I told you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well done. how did you find it i i i liked how real it was yeah very real it is very real it's very real and i think i think actually it's um i think actually it's a it's one of the most important um shows or types of shows we have in this country why do you think that because because i think you're i don't know about your school but in my school we didn't really learn how to or college or school secondary school college we didn't really learn how to think in a kind of as as a entrepreneur yeah i didn't know entrepreneurial i didn't i didn't understand like entrepreneur wasn't a thing yeah exactly when i left university i didn't i didn't i think you're gonna get a job exactly and in a time we're living in where like stem subjects almost are at the mercy of like ai to a certain degree in the not too distant future i think to have personality confidence to be able to like deliver a pitch without a doubt that's gonna win talk prove your point challenge someone if they try and challenge you um and to build things and to create and to fail and start again oh this is my second business i had this business before and this and that i think it's important for that to be reflected on our screens i think the the best thing people can do who are the younger age is go to like acting classes 100 because you learn how to stand up you learn how to be confident you know that's the thing that's going to that's what's going to win absolutely with ai and everything coming go to acting classes i understand improv understand how to walk in do drama yeah know how to connect with human beings how to make human beings feel something yeah absolutely man your new album yeah The Night's Not Dead is out 16th of October The Night's Not Dead here we freaking go yeah man let's party dude I saw you I was um I was in Hyde Park uh BST yeah yeah I saw you come on stage the crowd just went like electric yeah we obliterated 75 ,000 people ridiculous I'm fucking believable yeah mad and I saw you with your top off yes jiu-jitsu is that what I'll look like if I start doing jiu-jitsu every day or at least not every day not every day but three or four times a week at least and weights you're freaking ripped I'm ready I'm ready I'm ready for anything let's go I'm ready man it's unbelievable I'm ready are you excited for this new music so excited so excited I've got like a new lease on life um and i feel like i'm actually coming back with a purpose and with something to kind of because you've had that reset yeah i've had that reset and i thought about when i was making this album because this album is basically a dance inspired album and it's centered around club culture or the lack of and obviously you know i i know you to a certain extent and i'm sure we've all had those moments the west end central london and we've enjoyed it and maybe we've matured out of it to a certain extent, but we both, I'm sure you would agree that it's a rite of passage.

1:03:00It's something that you need to experience. It's almost like freshers week for a uni student. You need to experience it, even if you just do it for that week and that's it. And the fact that we are in a place now where we're losing, we've lost about 30 of these small grassroots music venues this year. I didn't realize it was that much. Yeah. And the stats are saying that by 2029, there may be no clubs in the UK left. Because people are not going out. Yeah, people are not going out. People have changed their kind of lifestyle habits. It's like, which is, I think is great. You know, people are doing more, you know, run clubs, paddle, this and that.

1:03:36So they're socializing in a different way. And I do think that the effects of like COVID, post-COVID, you know, social distancing, this and that and that. Like, I think the trauma from that definitely impacted nightlife culture. But then as an artist who basically spent their formative years going up and down these venues in the UK, as an artist who, you know, at around 15 or 16, snuck into my first Eskimo dance and saw, you know, the origins of this very exciting scene that we call grime kind of being formed right in front of my eyes. The artists, the DJs, the fashion, the this and that. I'm just like, if we don't have these places and spaces, like I just feel for the next generation.

1:04:20because you know when when you're streaming music which is the time that we're in now like for a million streams if you got a million if you got a million streams every single month you'd probably net as an artist probably about 15 grand in the year yeah yeah so when I was when I think about all of these venues being able to go to this club on a Friday night Saturday night test out your music like I said in Rude get cheered get booed know that you need to refine this change that like it's such an important part of the artistic process it's like becoming a comedian you you get the mission you get the you get the reaction straight away you need that as an artist yeah and then your brain just quickly makes it edit change that change that change yeah so if you don't have that then i think it's going to stifle a lot of like talent that has potential to be great and to become global stars it's going to stagnate their longevity because we're living in a time now where you could put one thing out on social media without thinking about it explodes and then you're there scratching your head trying to work out how to recreate that whereas if you're consistent with your fan base and you're going from place to place gigging looking into the whites of their eyes explaining your story they get to feel your energy you're making that real genuine connection like all the greats before us have done um you're in for more of a chance to have a more longer like a longer and a more illustrious career so this was my way of kind of celebrating UK nightlife culture, celebrating all of the scenes and genres that have come from that garage, grime, drum and bass, dubstep, all of this, all of these sounds that I've, um, just mentioned, they all started in small, grubby, dingy little places and now exploded into mainstream culture.

1:06:05And then even beyond, you know, one of our biggest soft powers as Brits is our export of the arts. Do you get what I'm saying? So if we're, if we're getting rid of these places and spaces we're basically stifling our creatives which is just horrific it's like it's an absolute no so of all the things i could have spoken about you know i could have spoken about my family and what fatherhood is like and this and that that will probably come in the future but right now i think this is important and so that's that's why i put it out fucking that's i feel the passion dude yeah it's genuine it's 100 yeah it's amazing yeah i mean there's so many things you've done.

1:06:40You formed at the 2012 Olympic ceremony with Spice Girls. Yeah. I mean, unbelievable. You high-fived Prince William at the BAFTAs. Yeah, I did. I don't know if I was allowed to do that, but I think he was cool with it. Yeah. That clearly is unbelievable. Yeah, yeah. It's iconic, man. It's iconic. It's unbelievable. In your head, were you thinking you're going to go for it? Yeah. King Charles came to see me do some jiu-jitsu the other day at Roger Gracie's. I don't know if you saw that. I didn't see that. Yeah, yeah. Not just me, but He came to Roger Gracie's And a select few of us was there It was through Reorg This happened maybe like Three months ago And he came And he came with all his team And stuff like that They made him put on the You know The protector things Because he would put his feet on the mat Same rules for everyone guys Same rules for everyone Respect for Jojo right Yeah and he came in Really interested in Jiu Jitsu And wanting to know more about it So So many crazy things have happened in my life Man It's ridiculous

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1:09:09Your energy is the greatest, man. Good. You're the greatest, dude. I'm trying to be one of. Yeah. I'm trying. What does greatness feel like to you? What is greatness to you? Greatness to me is, for me personally, if I can go out in this life and say I brought joy to the world and I brought people together and unlikely people together, people that, you know, not without me, but if I wasn't there, there's a chance they may not have connected. So for example, when I'm at a festival, when I see people of all different races and backgrounds and sexual orientations, and they're all together chanting the same lyrics, I think that is greatness.

1:09:46Like me, I've, I'm not a perfect person by any stretch of imagination, but I've done nothing but just try and bring joy to the world and just try and make people feel good, make people dance, create memories for people. When people say to me, oh, you was the soundtrack of my uni years, man. Or like I met my missus at Freshers Week or on this holiday in Marbella. And now we're married and we've got two kids. For me, I'm like, that is greatness. Like that is what greatness is. And so I'm actually tuning into the frequency of it now. And I think that is the essence of what greatness is. And I think it's subjective to every individual person.

1:10:24but for me that's it it's not monetary it's not you know the tangible material things that you have to show it's how you made people feel and I think when I go out most of the people are going to be like that guy that guy's a G he made me feel good yeah he made me feel great mate people don't remember what you say they don't remember what you do they remember how you make them feel absolutely yeah without a doubt 100 % listen we'd like to finish our conversation with 8 quick questions are you ready for this what's the saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up it's nice to be important it's more important to be nice i said that earlier i love it best compliment anyone's ever given you so what we were just saying now about understanding what your power or your essence is and someone was literally saying to me yesterday you know um you know how to make people feel good like your energy makes people feel good like that's not a joke not everybody possesses that you need to hone in on that um and tune into that he was basically saying you know just like the bob Marlies of the world who today we're still all listening to one love and it makes us feel a certain way your music maybe not me as a person but your music possesses elements of that sort of power and so because you know you know like for a long time like rap in the UK it wasn't even taken seriously it was like a marginalized thing oh you're trying to be like the Americans and this and that and that even now even though now UK music is some of UK rap is doing better than the us route but so there's always a part of me that has felt kind of like imposter syndrome like yeah like even though i know i have conviction in what i'm doing maybe like i'm winging it to a certain degree and maybe at some point someone's going to say this isn't you know what you think it is or whatever but i think once i had this conversation with this guy yesterday it made me understand the power of what i do and the fact that it's special it's actually very very special not everybody possesses that so that that really man that's amazing that someone like you has imposter syndrome yeah and it's also refreshing to hear for so many people that it feels like all of us are guessing yeah of course everyone's kind of winging it and we always feel like we're going to be caught out absolutely yeah man what scares you most about yourself my determination to succeed when was the last time you cried weirdly fun fact for some reason i don't know if it's the altitude yeah but whenever I'm on a plane and I watch a film like it could be any film could even be a funny film I just start crying like there could be a little moment you know like the guy sees his son again or like but I think it's something to do with the altitude because I could watch the same films at home and it doesn't happen so every time I'm on a plane watching the film I cry I watched a film called Wonder I don't know if you've seen this I haven't seen that dude it's with like Owen Wilson and Julia Roberts about their baby.

1:13:13I mean, I honestly, I was crying so much. It was like Noah's Ark. I was like, this is it. I was like, what is going on? I couldn't stop. You know when you get that.

1:13:26It feels quite nice to do it once in a while. It feels great, man. It's like a release, isn't it? What I like doing sometimes is going by myself in my room, getting YouTube up, watching like emotional videos. Have a little cry. Go downstairs to the world. I feel good now. Hello, everyone. what's something you can't let go of? My faith. God. What's your guilty pleasure? My guilty pleasure is actually very specific. It's a show at the moment and it's made by Tyler Perry and it's called Beauty in Black. Now, I know this show is not going to be for everyone. Definitely not. It's on Netflix, but I have to be honest with you.

1:14:02I've watched the last three seasons in a matter of maybe like two weeks and there's like 16 episodes in each season and they're all like an hour long. So in a matter of weeks, I've just crammed this all in and I absolutely love it. I'm addicted to it. Beauty and Black. Isn't that good? It is. Forgive me, Tyler Perry, because you are a genius and, you know, massive respect to you. But I would say that it's so bad that it's really good, if that makes sense. You've consumed like 45 hours. Quickly. Quickly. I love it, man. It's crazy It's like anything You could imagine That is so outrageous And that would never Actually happen In real life Happens in this show When you were the same age You would have been like Do you remember 24?

1:14:47Yeah I used to consume that That and like One Tree Hill What about Breaking Bad? Yeah Breaking Bad Come on Come on But yeah Beauty in Black Check it out man What's your biggest turn off? My biggest turn off Is arrogance Arrogance Ego Too much ego I just I just think you're yeah for me it's like uh you haven't there's a part of you that hasn't fully like come into realization or actualized yeah or developed do you know what I mean 100 % what's your biggest turn on uh my biggest turn on is um like kindness grace elegance you know someone who treats everyone with respect you know regardless of their social standing, their race, their gender, someone who just, you know, genuinely in their essence, like treats everyone with respect.

1:15:40I think it's one of the most like attractive things ever. What do you like most about yourself? Um, I like most about myself that I, uh, I think work ethic is too much of a cop-out. I like that I'm very family oriented. Like I have, like I said, three other siblings and we are together like all the time yeah and people always react like that that's amazing yeah yeah that's right yeah because as you get older it happens less and less and less but we're together all the time and it's just so fun yeah like everyone's in their 30s but like we'll all gather around mom and dad's new house and like we'll just chill like the whole day like hours can just go past that's amazing and so comfortable so comfortable everyone's open everyone will talk about their highs their lows their this and that super transparent it's like the best thing ever i love it okay bonus one favorite lyric you've ever written you know what um there's there's loads on the new album but i saw this i saw this um uh sweet girl on instagram recently and she was like um now i drive past the bus i used to run for where's my fucking clap where's my encore she was like i don't think you guys are understanding the gravity of those lyrics and like i'm not gonna like paraphrase what she said i think you just need to find the clip and you need to watch it but um she explained it so well she because she was like if this was like taylor swift or someone else that wrote this or someone that has been acknowledged by rolling stones of one of the greatest songwriters of all time like this would be so celebrated but maybe because it's him you guys are not understanding what he's saying and then she was breaking down the fact that I was saying that you know I used to run for the bus as opposed to I used to get on the bus I used to stand and where I would have been at the time and where I would be now to be but the way she some of it was a bit off but the way she but the way she explained it I was just like wow like I didn't ever think anyone would have gone in so deep to kind of understand where my mindset was at the time so it's not my overall favorite lyric because there's so many on the Night's Not Dead that are just gorgeous like oh there's so many but I'll just wait for you guys to hear it but I think the fact that that lyric is so iconic and people have now started doing breakdowns I'll let you guys have that one Tony man you're a legend dude no you're a legend I appreciate everything about this you've been the best company I'm gonna leave all the links in our show description go and check out your music your pages all your shows you do everything at all you're the best can't wait for the new music I appreciate you man you're a hero thank you Jamie Unbelievable.

1:18:14Unbelievable. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

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