Traitors & England Rugby Star, JOE MARLER: Being An Alpha Male Came At A Price

0:00Coming up in this episode of Great Company. I turned the house over, had a complete meltdown. The thoughts of not wanting to be here anymore really took hold of me. Joe! The toxic that you go into because you do everything you can to win, you do everything you can to be number one. The damage was already done. Hi, I'm Joe Marler and I'm in great company. Good title by Joe Marler. Beautiful pass by Joe Marler! Rugby's a brutal sport in terms of like on the body, right? It's a dangerous game, yeah. This lad got tackled from behind. and his whole leg snapped. My son, he turned around and said, I'll never respect you as a rogue player.

0:38Man. But you're happy that you had your career that you did? I had a rocky, like, career. Often described as poisonous. Do you think you were a bit of a bully at times? Oh, yeah. Definitely. I could either use my powers for good or evil. You've just done celebrity traitors. I feel like you win it. How much do you love Daisy? I wouldn't be in this world without her She's everything She's incredible I can't behave and be who I had been being At home for the person that I love the most I went straight to the doctor And the first thing he asked me was Whoa I just went fuck I still have that little bit of like What am I?

1:19Do you know what I mean? What am I? Did you take antidepressants? I've never spoken about this Oh

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4:00Hello everyone, my name is Jamie Lang and this is Great Company.

4:09Guys, welcome back to Great Company. I cannot wait for this episode. As you can see from the trailer, it's just really exciting. Right, before we start, just a couple of things. This is a really amazing episode with Joe. He's currently on the UK Traders, which is really, really exciting. If you've been watching it, you'll probably fall in love with him. and this episode delivers on so many more things. You really understand who the true Joe Marler is. And the second thing I can ask before we start is, if you like this content, if you enjoy what we're doing at Great Company, if you can click that subscribe button, it's completely free.

4:37It does us absolute wonders. If you can do that one thing for us, I'll be forever grateful. Okay, enjoy this episode of Great Company with Joe Marler. Hi, I'm Joe Marler and I'm in Great Company.

4:53You know I'm a good regular. you've told me you were a good rugby player. You've told me that. Very, very good rugby player. All right. I'm an excellent shagger. You're not.

5:11You've just done Celebrity Traitors. Yes, I have. I have done that. I'm trying to navigate this. I'm allowed to say that. You're allowed to say that. You can't say anything about the show, which I totally get which is I don't want to show do you watch Traitors I fucking love it man how good is it it's great it's so good you're with you're coupling by buddies Paloma Nico are you friends with him yeah yeah yeah yeah Nico Nico's great great guy the whole cast mate like Stephen Fry bonkers in fact he's so smart yeah he's really smart he's really smart Jonathan Ross yeah he's smart nice guy i can't wait to watch it i'm you know i reckon well i i felt incredibly uncomfortable doing it why because uh you think in the rugby world yeah you go like rugby's massive like you you're in it like this this is a big thing you know everyone knows about rugby you think it's like massive you come out of it you go into like a normal world and then they go oh who are you then what do you do and i go uh i used to play rugby and they're like oh right uh what what league or union or what what is what sort of thing and i go and it was really good because it was like mate the fucking what like the world does not do you know what i mean have a bit of perspective on it but yeah getting confused for being like the sound guy or in charge of the props was many of my highlights it was the one of the best experiences of my life for a fan of the show to watch it and then when i got the opportunity to go on it i was like fuck yeah like please do and it didn't disappoint like it doing it was just some of the most fun i've ever had it was just bonkers I can't wait for you to see it, Jamie.

7:19I can't wait to see it. Yeah. I feel like you win it. I feel like you might win it. I feel like you win it. If it was offered to you for the next series. Oh, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Would you? 100%. What other ones have you done? Have you done any others? I've been offered a few, but I just... Show off. But what? You prefer invading people's privacy rather than the world seeing your stuff. I turn the mirror on me, but I don't think I would do I'm a Sleb. No? Don't think I'd do that. Camel cock, no good for you. I would eat the camel cock. I did Strictly. Oh, yes. How did you win that? Oh, you got to the final.

7:55Who did you lose to? Bill Bailey. Comedian. Why is that funny? Because it was Bill Bailey. What's that? Can he not dance? He's got a bald head with a mullet. And that means bald head people with mullets can't dance. Is that what you're implying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, he could dance because he beat you. Yeah, he's fucking good. Or are you saying it was rigged? No, it wasn't rigged. So you'd do, if Celebrity Traitor Season 2, you were like, fucking get me in there. I would love to do that. Yeah, you should. Tell me about your childhood. Wow. Do you have nicknames growing up?

8:29Come on, give it to me. Give it to me. Come on. Chubsy Wubsy. That was it? Fat Boy. Fat Boy Fat. Fat Boy Fat? Yeah, you know, like Fat Boy Slim. But there was no Slim. Just Fat Boy Fat. Who was calling you that? Just the world. The world. Actually, most of the time it was me. You know, you get in there first. You know, you talk about your inverted nipples because you've got massive moobs first. Because then that puts up a barrier of defense. Like if then anyone attacks me for any of my faults, I'm like, yeah, I've already stated them to you. Thank you. It's easier to deal with. You're like Eminem in the rap battle.

9:06What the flying fuck is that reference? That's true. Oh, yes. In eight mile at the end. Yeah. I am a redneck hillbilly. Yeah. I'm a redneck hillbilly. What's that bloke who fucked his mum? Jim did fuck my mum. And Jim did fuck my mum. Clickety-clack, clack, clack, clickety-clack. Wiggity-whack, whack, whack. Sitting back. Your real name's Clarence. He went to private school. Yeah, yeah. He's got a real nice home and his mum and dad are together. What the fuck is going on here? So everybody in the 313, put your motherfucking hands up and follow me. Yeah. I'd like to leave. Can we call it Is that like the quickest episode you've ever done No we've got a long way to go Middle name's William George Joseph or Joe Joseph What do you want to call me Joseph William George Marler You can call me Jose if you like Born 1990 Wow In Eastbourne What part The West part Yeah what part of the West part Near the Eastbourne Rugby Club you're right actually yeah well played don't worry about it okay how was your childhood because because because you're you're one of these people right who i reckon you felt like like you said before with your insecurities you would call out your insecurities to begin with because perhaps you were an insecure child perhaps were you i don't know what's an insecure child Because I think we all are a little bit insecure as kids.

10:41So aren't they just children? No. No, because most children don't have consciousness, really. Like, I remember when I was a kid, I said this before, I remember when I used to be in school, I used to get into a queue. There was hot food and cold food right at my school. Right. So you could have... It was a posh school, was it? It was a posh school. Nice. You could have a salad or you could have hot food, like a lasagna. Wow. Fucking hell. I know. And I used to get into... Lasagna? It was normally like a lasagna or something like that. And I used to get into the queue and see who would follow me into the queue.

11:13Because I was conscious of like popularity. Wow. For what purpose? Who would follow you in the queue? And then you'd be like, are they my sort of people? Yeah. I should hang around with them more. No, I thought you want, I wanted to gain popularity. So I'd see who would follow me to see who was like part of my gang almost. Did no one follow you? A few people did. And are they still your friends? No. So the purpose of the validation at that moment. All right. Okay. You're quite, you're sharp. You're really sharp. And you started this as a kid. Yeah. Fuck. Okay. Yeah. No, I was just deciding how many flapjacks I was going to have.

11:50Usually it was between three and five. Always. Always stacked up, mate. Loved a flapjack. You would have three to five flapjacks. Yeah. My wife still recalls it now. She's like, okay, now do you remember when you used to have three or five flapjacks at lunchtime? Can I have a flapjack now please? This is Daisy Daisy my wife yeah You were at school with Daisy? We went to school together yeah When did you first kiss? Wow Come on give it to me Come on Joe When did we first kiss? When did you first kiss? Because when did you first meet Howard? We were first together at school When I was 14 We met on 13, 14 Year 8 camp We used to go to.

12:34And what did you think? I went, she's my girl. At 14? She is my lady. And I am her man. She drives me crazy.

12:52And I'm not called Dan. Wait, when you saw her, when you saw her. So you're 13, 14 years old. You're feeling like a little bit like whatever it is. What was the first thing You said to her What was I feeling Why you were feeling insecure You were probably feeling Because you call yourself fat Boy fat Yeah You had inverted nipples Yeah I did They're not Just checking So you were They're starting to go A bit more inverted now So you were feeling shy All these things And then you see Daisy I was never shy Well you must have been A little bit shy No I was never shy I was always outgoing And sort of Narcissistic Make it all about me And yeah Daisy We were part of the same group of friends.

13:33And I was like, that's my LTP. That's my long-term plan. Come on. Then you did that. I just loved her. She was great. I got on so well. And then she, yeah. And then she dumped me because I was too fat. And I remember putting on MSN Messenger after she dumped me after about three months, which is weird that she dumped me. I think it was just after Valentine's where I'd bought her a R Kelly's Greatest Hits, which obviously hasn't aged well at the time. It was a decent record. Ignition? No. Yeah. Ignition. Probably the world's greatest. Yeah. We probably don't sing them now. No, we should probably not sing any of his songs because he's a massive helmet.

14:21But back then. Back then he was. Without any of the context. Yeah, I gave her R. Kelly's album and a banana. And that's not a euphemism. Like it was an actual banana. So you went and bought her R. Kelly's album? Yeah, yeah. I didn't have the same sort of money as other kids, mate. I spent it all on flapjacks. So I could only afford R. Kelly's album and a banana for her. And then what did you do? And she dumped me. And then I put,

14:48Ain't no sunshine when she's gone. That got you that one, didn't it? we like it uh and then she went with uh the rival leader of we could this we're dressing it up as um here we go see now we're going we're dressing it up like romeo and juliet or she went with the capulets yeah she went with the rival leader of of the same gang so there was like two big boy gangs in our year. Sorry, hang on a second. I was literally talking about popularity and who would be in your team and then you've gone straight on to talk about that there were two gangs at your school. Yeah, they're not real gangs. I'm dressing up like story time.

15:33There was this gang. We all hung out together. Boys, all that. There was this gang and then we'd often have fights. At school? Yeah, at school. There was a big one where did you ever play Bulldog? Explain what Bulldog is. This is what people don't know. Well, it's... Because it's not the dog. Yeah, why is it called Bulldog? Don't know. What came first? The game or the dog? The dog, 100%. Because Bulldogs... You know so much. You're like a fountain. It would have done, 100%. Okay. So Bulldog... Someone's in the middle. Correct. All the other people at one end. Yeah. You've got to run past the guy in the middle and touch the other side of the hall without getting tagged.

16:14Exactly. PE teacher pretty much knew that these two groups didn't get on. There was always friction. You could almost tear up. I'm going to do this one then. And then it just started. Were you big, guys? Were you big? Yeah, I had inverted nipples. I was always big. I always used to mark it as, oh, it's my 12th birthday. I'm 12 stone. 13, I'm 13 stone now. It just went up like that. Just keep going up. Yeah, I'm 35 now. It's not 35. It might as well be. Now it's moved on from stone because that's just to BMIs. so I'm actually I'm younger than my BMI which is good we're killing it Joe no no that's not good that is good I'm younger than my BMI oh no that's not good no it's not good your body fat percentage is over 35 yeah yeah that's alright is it?

17:03no that's okay we can work on that okay I'm not sure how I feel sitting in a sweet factory wait so so you're playing Bulldog PE teacher knows there's going to be a scuffle or something's going to go and what happens next? I was just a massive brawl. It was great. Just a full on school fight. It was great. And she was with him for pretty much all the school. And we secretly were friends in leisure and tourism or other classes that we were. She couldn't be seen with me in public, couldn't she? Do you know what I mean? And yet we had the same group of friends. So it was always tough with that one.

17:40And then I went off, found rugby. well yeah signed for quins moved to london for four years but we always kept in touch and anytime i'd come home for the weekend same group of friends would go out and then we were just like fuck it same same group of friends now yeah same group of friends now man that's amazing yeah friendships are everything how much do you love daisy give it to me i wouldn't be here like not i don't mean at the sweet factory but i mean it would be as well but i wouldn't be in this world without her like she's she's everything like she's incredible like for me to if you're going to be a professional like athlete in fact i was a rugby player not an athlete if you're going to be a professional sports person in any sport you've got to have a level of selfishness yeah that drive that commitment it's like you've got to do everything you can and I wouldn't have been able to do that if Daisy wasn't by my side like half the year I'm not there I'm away doing rugby all the time she's there looking after the kids looking after everything at home and just I wouldn't have been able to do any of that without although people do say well actually if you didn't have her you then wouldn't have had kids and you could have done all of that you just wouldn't have had it you wouldn't have had as much stress actually you wouldn't have had sometimes people reverse it go it might have been easier you piece of shit that's my response to them I love her to pieces mate she's been there through everything ups and downs she's like she is the reason I wake up in the morning to go and have an adventure for that day with her and the kids so I don't think I say it enough publicly because I never had she doesn't need that but you asked the question and you made out we were friends so I thought I'd tell you the truth and yet you've put a microphone in front of it to record that cut that bit then Helen cheers no we're not going to cut that okay yeah bet you won't that's it man that's amazing very lucky

19:58you spoke a lot about when you went through your tricky time when you had when you how are you going to navigate this one I like it I like it with depression yeah mental health issues because I think what you spoke about is how Daisy helps you through your toughest times yeah and that really shows a real teammate when they can help you through your best times but also be there for your worst times what happened talk to me through this what happened I I had a rocky like career at times. 2016, I had a meltdown. But don't brush over it. Tell me that. No, I'm not. I'm just giving you the chronological.

20:39Okay. 2016, there was a summer tour to Australia with England. And I bailed on that because I remember driving down to the training camp in Brighton and just bawling my eyes out on the way there. Like, what the fuck's going on here? You just crying. Just crying my eyes out. And then I got there, pulled myself together, did a bit of the training, but it was a faked injury, so I couldn't be arsed. I was like, I don't want to be here. And Eddie Jones was a coach at the time, and then I asked him for a coffee that evening when I met him. And I said, mate, I can't do this anymore. I'm done. And he was like, yeah, eyes don't lie, mate.

21:19And I went, what? He went, eyes don't lie. I went, what do you mean? He went, I can see it in your eyes, mate. You're just not with it. I said, I can't come on tour. I don't know what I'm going to do. I didn't realise it was that. You just felt... No, I was like, enough's enough. I've had enough. And he was like, look, mate, can we give you any support and help you in this week before making a final decision? I was like, no, I think it's done now, mate. I was like, okay, mate, well, let us know how you get on, if there's anything we can do. All the best. And then went away from there and just had a massive, like, weight off my shoulders i was like brilliant like i'm done it was rugby all these issues like stressing rugby i couldn't handle it and then uh that summer like at the summer off spent time with daisy and the kids um loved it what were you thinking about future at that point because you're you're you're at the peak of your career you're not even at the peak you're just you're killing it i mean you're playing england you're I wasn't really thinking about the future.

22:21I was thinking about then and how I was feeling then. I was like, right, I need to get rid of something because I've been feeling like crying to work all the time, feeling like really down about things. And I had no reason or no obvious reason to be down about it. I was a professional rugby player. I had a wife and two kids. Like what stresses did I have? And I was like, maybe rugby is the stressor that it's like getting to me too much. Always trying to find that reason always when you feel that way. Yeah, yeah. What the fuck's going on here? Why am I feeling this way? Yeah, I shouldn't feel like this.

22:55And then it was fine. It sort of patched up, carried on, started to feel better. And then Eddie welcomed me back in the England team the following season. So lucky for that. And then it sort of started to rear its head again, my feelings, going into work every morning, crying my eyes out for no reason on the way to work. What did it feel like, Joe, though? because the reason why I'm interested in this, right, is because it's two blokes sitting across each other and blokes don't really talk about this. No. They actually generally don't. No, they don't. That's the fucking issue. It's mad. Because immediately everything changes.

23:31We shouldn't talk about crying. That's what girls do. Yeah, we shouldn't. We shouldn't talk about our emotion. That's guilt. They need us to be strong and go and collect wood for fire and shit like that. It's exactly that. Yes, they do. Or they can also go and get wood themselves. Yeah. or we can go and get wood together or we can do both. Yeah. Like, cause we deal with shit the same way they do that. I mean, but we just need to get better at doing it. So when you're in that moment, when you're crying on your way to work, who are you telling? No one. There was no way I was telling anyone. Yeah.

24:07I wasn't even telling that. I wouldn't tell Daisy or anyone at home. Why would I burden her with all of that? And then why would I tell anyone at work? I meant you meant to be this strong alpha at work where you, knocking six bells of shit out of each other. You don't want someone who's just crying and wussing out all the time. That's not, that's not, it was like you'd show no weakness. And that, and that's why it was even more, I was like, what the fuck am I doing? Like all these voices in my head, like, what are you doing? All this, just get on with it. Stop, you've got nothing to moan about what's going on.

24:37But I couldn't, I couldn't help the way I was feeling. I was feeling that. And I was like, oh, what do I do with that? And then sort of a history of Pete itself in 2018, went on an England tour, went to knock it on the head again. It's a combination of not understanding what was going on with me and just assuming it was the pressures of international rugby and all that. And yet when I played international rugby, I fucking loved it. I didn't really, pressure's sort of made up, it's a made up thing in your head, isn't it? Yeah. like you feel the pressure but yeah I just loved it I didn't really feel the pressure it was intense but it was like living the dream here I love it running out at 85 ,000 people at Twickenham just this is great but I was like maybe that's you know not spend enough time at home because I'm waiting to get rid of that so I retired again in 2018.

25:33And you didn't say to anyone when you spoke to Eddie that first time you didn't say I feel sad? No it was just I think I've got burnout mate I've fallen out of love with the game. That was it. And then did the same in 2018. It was a bit like, oh, right. Is this like a thing with you? Do you see? I was like, maybe. So 2018, you do, you decide to retire again. Yeah. And I remember this, like being, like I've told you this before, but like growing up, rugby players, you know, were my heroes. You guys were my heroes. Really? Not you so much. You're older than me, aren't you? By a year. but wilkinson lucy oh okay tindall that generation yeah the 03 lot oh man yeah yeah mega mega so so growing up so then i remember seeing you retiring again from a from a uh fan point of view it was confusing it was like i don't why is he retiring again yeah he just wants more attention i did he just another retirement party i thought that was it enough's enough I didn't know again I didn't know what's going on and then you hadn't had any therapy nothing at all it just you got no because I didn't I just presumed it was the rugby and it was burnout that I'd fallen out of love with the game and fuck the game I'm gone I'm gonna concentrate on family and and Quinn's a bit more um and then I had a it just carried on after that it got worse and I had a proper meltdown the back end of 2018 and Daisy was pregnant with our third with Felix at the time she's seven months pregnant with Felix and it was like I'd lost the plot we'd had a massive argument over a fucking squirrel

27:25good do you know i mean it's the squirrel was the breaking the breaking point there was something and um because you're just feeling internally just yeah and i hadn't been communicating any of that she didn't know what was going on she didn't she asking you yeah being distant or what's going on i was distant mate i wasn't present at home like physically and emotionally there i was just like it was shit i was making it like a shit environment for everyone but i wasn't aware of it at the time i was just like going through it all because i think you you have that curse right because you're such a loud character when you're feeling great the whole room feels great but also if you're not if you're not feeling great the whole room feels it often described as poisonous really throughout my career i could either use my powers for good or evil and more often than not i'd lean to the evil side really you could turn a room bringing a room down or influencing other people in a bad way i'd always lean on that side and i was like fuck you know piece of shit i look back at that and go fuck the amount of people that i've made feel uncomfortable and you know bad i go i don't i don't want to do that now i don't want to be like that now and i go fuck I'm sorry that I did that.

28:46But at the same time you go, maybe if I hadn't been like that, I don't really truly learn to be the other way. Do you know what I mean? Can I, do you think you were, and sorry to put this out there, do you think you were a bit of a bully at times? Oh yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, if most of the time that environment, you know, it's almost encouraged in the way that you have to be that alpha it's the it's the toxic masculinity it's not masculinity in the the alpha nature it's like the toxic that you go into because you do everything you can to win you do everything you can to be number one everything you can to be in the team like yeah i was i was definitely i'll definitely be labeled as that in you ask a lot of my teammates i wouldn't be one of the one of the guys that they would describe as oh he was such great fun to be around he was great so encouraging all the time that would be like passing moments that'd be on occasion that'd be like that a lot of the other time i might be driving it in a in a different direction like that shit that's not good enough i'd get on with it or i wouldn't drive it at all which tend to have the same effect as the negative effect do you know i mean unless i was being overtly positive I couldn't be neutral if I was neutral it just immediately would be like the sapper of the group wow it's also it's quite a lot of pressure as well for you because because you can feel that you have control so you can use that for good or bad yeah but a lot of the time I didn't people would say oh you've got a big influence in the group and I was like no I haven't yeah because you don't realise it anyone that you remember that you were particularly a bit Oh, you're going for names again, are you?

30:36You're good at this. You can probe all you want, mate. I don't mind a probe. Have you ever apologised to anyone?

30:48Yeah, I've apologised to them, whether it's been well-received or not. You know, a lot of the apologies I've made have never come back with, oh, thanks, mate, appreciate. Because why would they? you know it's like the damage was already done with a lot of teammates like that and that sort of that's i love it where we flip-flop around all things but that's sort of why i retired like finally for the third and final time retired fully from rugby and at quins because i'd spent the last two years of my career at harlequins a lot of my group had sort of retired and moved on that I'd grown up with. Yeah.

31:35And I'd always been close to them. Yeah. And then I hadn't really made any effort at making new friends or engaging with the younger teammates. Right. Because I was like, well, I've got kids at home. I've got this. I go away with England. I just can't be arsed with it. Do you know what I mean? I didn't put in the effort. So then when it got to the point where there was only like four or five of us left of the old guard and then another one went and it's like, you know, it's just us that are together. You felt like an outsider. Yeah. Yeah, and I was an outsider through my own fault, mainly. I hadn't made the effort to go and think, and I'd been horrible to a number of the teammates, so they weren't going to make an effort.

32:14And it was like, fuck, I need to get out of here. It's not fair on me and my body and all that lot from that point of view and my family just to flog a dead horse. But it's also not the best thing for the group now. It's their group. It's their club. and I'm sort of this bad smell in the corner that at any moment could just say something. Even the coaches were like, fucking hell. So that was it, yeah. So if we go back to 2018, you've had the argument about the squirrel. Oh, yeah, Squirrelgate. Yeah, fucked it up. I turned the house over, had a complete meltdown. Run out on DayZ and then the thoughts of not wanting to be here anymore like really took hold of me and I thought well maybe the world's better off if I'm not around let's just let's just leave both from a practical point of view of leaving her and the kids and everyone around but also from a worldly point of view what would that look like if I wasn't here anymore and

33:25that that was the moment that was like, fucking hell, I need help. I need some proper help here. So I don't know what's going on. I tried finding the answers or working it out from 2016 to 2018 and that thing. And I was like, no, I do need to go and get help here. And then that was it. I went and found a psychiatrist and, um,

33:58it was actually the doctor at the quinn it was um the doctor at harlequins so the day after squirrel gate i had a game against saracens at wembley the day after the day after and had a chat and he was just asking everything all right everything right home like all that lot and that's delved into it more and then it was him who was like right we're going to get you some help, mate. All right, let's get through the game today and then we'll get you some help. And that was that moment. Yeah, that was the turning point to go and actually find some proper answers from people that knew their shit. What was the first meeting like with your therapist?

34:41Humphrey. Humphrey, legend. Humphrey. What did you say? I was so scared. I was so scared to go in there.

34:55and I remember sitting in the car for ages in the car but I was like oh god I'm not going to go in I can't go in I'll be alright I'll be absolutely fine but it was a non-negotiable it was like no I can't behave and be who I had been being at home for the person that I love the most and the kids that I love the most like I need to change yeah and then I got in there and he was like hello he did so yeah good it was so weird it was like a proper i was like where's the um where's the you know the thing and he went what i went you know the thing i lie on and he went the chaise lounge i went yeah do i not where do i lie down i'm expecting he said uh do you want a chaise lounge and i was like uh no oh you're right so we don't really do that that's not what we do in the movies do you want me to bring out the colored cards with all like this what do you see and all this stuff i was like do you do that as well i was like no we're just gonna have a chat and i was like right okay so he just chatted to me and uh i just completely opened up to him i felt safe because he was a professional stranger i don't mean like a professional stranger but it was someone that there was no connection to how funny is that i i sorry i this is the weirdest thing in the world.

36:18It's so much easier to talk to a stranger. Yeah. About your feelings. Yeah. Because for whatever reason. Well, because the biggest thing is, you don't want to talk to your friends or your loved ones because you don't want to burden them because they've got enough on their plate as it is. Why do they not have to deal with me and all that lot? You're happy to burden a stranger with them. Even more happy to burden a professional stranger who wants to take the burdens. So that's why it is. But... Isn't that mad though? It is mad. It's even madder that you go, well what's the point in having friends and family if you're not going to because if it was roles reversed say it was you and Sophie and Sophie had a lot going on would you want her to come to you so you could help her?

36:57100%. So why do we feel so bad about doing the reverse? Because it's the burden. I don't want to burden you. You go Thea but what's the fucking point in being together then? Because it's a burden I don't want to talk. What's the point? You can't all be like Because what's the point of me burdening you with my emotions because then you're going to have to also carry my emotions as well as everything else. Yeah, or you look at it like she's carrying the understanding of where you're both at at that period of your life. But what happens if she doesn't understand and then she runs? Well, then you know she's not for you.

37:27Do you know what I mean? That was my thought process at the beginning. I was like, I can't tell her this. And then when I went to the therapist the first time, I said, I'm going to lose my relationship here. Yeah. And they said, all right, well, let's sort it out. And did you? No, we, yeah. And then funny enough, when Sophie said to me, the one thing I want you to be is honest with me. If you're feeling bad, just tell me. I don't like the fact that I'm in left in the dark here. Tell me that you're feeling anxious. Because then it can manifest itself in other ways. If you're not telling her and then a squirrel runs out on the road and you swerve it or you don't swerve it and then a massive argument starts, you go, why the fuck have we just had a massive meltdown over a squirrel when that could have been avoided if you just told me, oh, you're feeling shit at the minute.

38:09Did you take medication? yeah so that's what i was like humphrey immediately you know did the whole debrief it was great um and then the assessment was depression and it'd recommend me taking antidepressants and immediately i was like uh no i don't need them that is that is so weak that is weak don't don't don't just put me on pills that's ridiculous and yet i'd spent most of my career on pills like taking painkillers or taking this for inflammation and that like you go well that's fine or antibiotics when you sit and i went to the doc i went back to um the the first doctor that sorted me out at quinn's and i said look i don't want to take pills mate it's weak he went right okay understand where you're coming from it's a natural reaction what do you do if you've got like tonsillitis and i went take antibiotics and he said oh what do you think the antibiotics do i said they make me better and he went yeah yeah but they help your body make you better like they give you a thing it's a then he said look why don't you look at it like that you know you might be on them for a year you might be on them for 20 years you might be on as you're using them as a tool to work out the other stuff to then put, you know, more tools in your arm.

39:36Yeah, it just gives you that little relief. But did you, did you take antidepressants? I've never spoken about this. Oh. Yeah, I've never, I've never really spoken. That's wild. Yeah. You delve into people's lives all the time and yet you've never liked, but you can relate. Yeah. Do you not want to talk about it? Let's talk about it. Yeah, I'll talk about it with you. Yeah, during that period in lockdown, yeah, I took antidepressants. I took something called Ciprolex, which is anti-anxiety. And I took a low dose and I spoke to this guy. Funny, he's not a stranger, but he's a friend. He is a friend, but he's also separated.

40:08He was a guy I met in Scotland once. And he... It was just random. We met this bloke in Scotland? In the Highlands or like... No, like an event in Glasgow and Edinburgh. And he said to me... I weirdly had like a panic attack with him. And he like calmed me down. This is when I was like 24 or whatever. Anyway, weirdly enough, this guy, he's called Rory, he's so nice. And he's the best. And we are good friends. He has always checked in on me. And then, for whatever reason, he checked in on me during lockdown. And he said, you're doing all right? And I went, I'm having a bit of a crap time, actually, man.

40:47And he said, well, listen, just to let you know, I've just started antidepressants. I haven't told anyone what I'm going to tell you. It's started antidepressants, and it's really helped. They're called Cyprolex. Maybe you should talk to someone about it. and so I did the same thing as you I said oh I've heard this thing I've heard this like thing don't know it's called like I don't know ciprolex or something like that yeah yeah they're like oh yeah well these are the things we've been talking about do you want to take them and I went oh and I did the same thing I went and got them from the pharmacy and I hid it I hid it from everyone I put them on the side I just like sat and just stared at them for about half an hour and I was like ah and then I took it and it was like weirdly like immediate relief I mean physically it wouldn't have been an immediate relief but yeah I know what you mean you go well yeah it's fine I've done it yeah I've done it it's fine yeah it's fine yeah it's fine yeah and it was like and then I was on them for about six months during lockdown thanks for sharing that I'm serious like if you haven't spoken about it before I really haven't I appreciate you sharing it because it makes me feel a bit more like I don't know why I'm embarrassed about it yeah yeah it's i think it's the same way that still we feel embarrassed about talking about our emotions as well like it's the same thing oh it's weak it's weak you can't just rely on on medication you go why if it's there to help us why don't we use it whilst and from my point of view what taking them has helped me and even and i know it helps me because on and off since 2018 i've been on and off them because there've been times so i was on them during the 2019 world cup and then after the world cup um i'd had the best time in japan it was like incredible amazing we man that we bottled it in the world cup final of course but you can't believe you did that don't get fucking angry i'm fucking angry because that semi-final when new zealand was the greatest that's the greatest game they've just given us the cup for that just just for that one that's a shame uh but it was the best experience i was like this is incredible just the whole thing i'm feeling great although we'd lost the final i was still like i'm in a good place i felt like i was back and then i was like well i'm in a good place now i don't need to yeah don't need to take them anymore and I just stopped taking them.

43:07Not told, didn't tell anyone. And combining that with the come down when you come out of camp hit me hard. I was like, fucking hell, spiraling again. Well, because the camp is so intense, camaraderie, everything. Everything, right. And the scheduling of it all, the thing. And then you wake up on the Monday morning at home and you go, where is everyone? It's great to be home, but like, why is there no one telling me where I need to be? this morning why is there no one telling me what i need to wear i'm not going to see 30 other blokes for the day do you know what i mean it's like what are we going to do so the come down and the the the sort of exhaustion of that just kept i kept spiraling and then it was like right okay get back on the meds get back sorted you're fine then it signed and then i just kept doing that And I'm still doing that where even as recent as a few weeks ago where things have gotten a bit tricky with home life and retirement life or unemployment life where I go, I really underestimated this.

44:15I thought the first three or four months of retirement was great. It was like an extended holiday. I'm just spending all the time with the kids. It's fine. my body's starting to feel better i'm not aching every sunday morning after game i was like this is great and then you go fuck what am i gonna do what do i do what's my job it's just it's just finding that new identity right that's the thing and i went i had a good chat with a good friend of mine who he's been five years retired and been through the same similar issues issues and he was like it took him about 18 months to sort of get to grips with the lack of schedule uh the lack of camaraderie every day seeing the thing the actual physical nature the physical fitness because you look at yourself and you go well i don't need to do these weights anymore because i don't need to be that big i don't need do you know what i mean what's the what's the purpose of the body do you know what i mean what's what what is my new purpose of it and uh yeah really good chat about the identity piece of whenever someone asks you oh what do you do you are play rugby like that's always been the answer for the last 15 17 years now if someone asks you what do you do i go i do a podcast which is a great podcast thank you really kind of it is very yeah but i mean like i do a podcast but is that a real job i'm asking you i don't think so right but look at your setup yeah i but this looks very professional yeah but you how much do you love your podcast oh i love it yeah there you go because you love talking to people as much as you pretend you don't you actually this conversation now no i absolutely love talking to people yeah absolutely love the engagement like hearing different people's stories like the way you can bounce off people the way you can't bounce off people human psychology i fucking obsessed with it like so i love my podcast but i still have that little bit of like what am i what am i do you know what i mean what am i and you go well i'm a dad i'm a husband i'm like yeah yeah i know so i'm gonna put effort and that but what what am i

46:36hello everyone and great company now you know on this podcast we're all about celebrating people and their incredible journeys. So as a business owner myself with Candy Kitchens and Jam Pop Productions, I know just how much goes on behind the scenes. It's not just about the big ideas, it's about the day-to-day hustle, the admin, the hard work that can really pull you away from the creativity that sparked the business in the first place. So finding the tools that actually help you get back to what you love is a game changer. And I'm actually in the process of discovering Google Workspace with Gemini myself, which is why today I'm joined by a very special guest.

47:08It's Zoe Cosby. Zoe, how are you? I'm good. Thank you for having me. Did you like my introduction? I loved her. What a pro. What a pro. Zoe, okay, so you are a business leader. Tell me about your business first. So Kent Brushes is an independent British hairbrush brand. So we've been manufacturing brushes since 1777. So we're nearly at the point of celebrating our 250th anniversary. That's mad. Pretty special. Yeah, making us one of probably the oldest companies in the world and definitely one of the oldest in the UK. I love that. So before we get into the wonderful world of workspace, what's the biggest challenge you face as a business owner would you say the biggest challenge I just think you know everyone would kind of agree is is is the juggle yeah it's just the juggle of like everyday life having visibility across sort of everything from production to sales to design to you know your home life poorly parents you know everything kids that juggle is definitely the kind of yeah the hardest thing okay so on the podcast we're all about inspiration so how has google workspace with gemini helped you with the more creative parts of your business like brainstorming ideas or creating new content google workspace with gemini has been invaluable i think you know for me i have no two weeks of the same you know um take this week i have created a big brand deck for a potential new partnership that's happening we're launching a new product so i've been um planning all the kind of product launch into market um globally for that when you have all these ideas and i you know my my brain literally never stops switches off i'm constantly taking pictures of things and screen grabbing things and I think you know by using um the tools that you have available on google workspace you can be more effective in how you know you manage all of those ideas um so I can build a deck on slides and I can take all those screen grabs and I can ask Gemini to format them for me and give some prompts and it will do that for me so all of that kind of muddle and mess that's in my head and all that creative side that's either on my phone or in my head I can kind of collate it all and then use Gemini to you know tell it what to do and it will you know assist me in kind of making some kind of sense out of all of that.

49:08I think that's really good and also I think the big point for me right is Gemini isn't replacing the human thinking. No way. It's more about a thought partner so you can bounce ideas off. Yeah. Which is amazing and so it's helping you go from idea to strategy in less time which is the most important thing. Definitely and I think you know so many of us also working remotely nowadays and you know maybe when you used to be in an office with 20 people you could be like oh how do I do this or what's the word for that and you know you know say you're um on google sheets and you can't remember the format of how to do something when you create you know data you can just ask gemini you know and it will assist you okay what about the stuff that nobody likes to do okay so have you seen a real impact on removing the manual processes and the admin tasks that used to take up so much of your time yeah i mean data is not my my thing i find looking at you know huge spreadsheets just mind blowing and you know for other people that's you know that's what they love but i need to be across it.

49:59So I can use Gemini to kind of input a load of data, ask it to summarize it for me, and it will give me a report at the end that I can, you know, something I can actually kind of consume, and then I can move forwards and get on with, you know, what I'm good at. Okay, if I had to ask you, what's your absolute favorite tool within Workspace that helps you on a day-to-day basis, what would it be? I think my favorite tool has got to be Gemini on Google Meet. Yeah. Because I work remotely quite a lot of the time, you know, I can be on a 10-minute call or a two-hour call, and, you know, that note-taking and i think also when you are taking calls online being able to actually look somebody in the eye so to speak i know obviously you've got a laptop between you but you can actually just purely concentrate on that person the meeting and not be scribbling or like head down scribbling and making sure that you've written the right day you know just being able to kind of really concentrate it's really good for relationship building and all those kind of itemized notes that you get at the end of it it's just invaluable you know that for me that's the biggest time saver yeah i agree with you i i think that is the biggest and people don't realize that so thank you for that.

50:56That's very kind. I'm feeling very inspired about the conversation. I'm really excited to see how Google Workspace with Gemini could help me and my business much more. It's all I'm hearing about AI and Workspace like Gmail, Docs, Drive, the Gemini app and Sheets from Friends too. It really does free up your focus to focus on your passion, your vision and what truly makes your business special. It's not just about being a useful tech tool. It's about enabling founders to do what they do best, build and grow. Google Workspace with Gemini is AI for every business. So if you want to see how these tools can help you unleash your creativity and power your own journey, visit go.gle forward slash one zero stories.

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53:14give me advice on fatherhood oh fuck off give it to me come on uh advice on fatherhood because yeah you just had a 20 week scan i'm so happy for you mate it's gonna how many of your like friends group quite a few yeah so have you had like a little bit of like yeah i've had a little bit of this and that my interaction with them and all that lot but it's not the same no it's when you've got your own little human is the best thing ever when you leave the hospital and you go oh my god this is incredible this like elation when you had jasper was it just like oh it was just fucking that was wild because we were planning to you'd have been 25 24 23 quite young is it well in these times i'd say that's yeah quite subjective really isn't it subjective yeah but having a kid at 23 is quite young we just said that we're just adults at 35 and you have a kid oh yeah yeah we do look back on that and go fucking hell yeah we were young weren't we but we wanted we wanted to we wanted to be young like young parents with the family and all that and uh but when Jasper was due we were prepping to play Italy in the Six Nations and it was Italy away and I on the Monday days went into Labour and I was like oh I'm going to have to go and they were like yeah yeah that's fine but then it sort of there was a couple of complications but it dragged on a bit and she ended up being in Labour for like three days and I was still getting calls from Stuart Lancaster and the England team like what's the crack then mate are you going to come play on Saturday I was like I'm in the hospital or like dealing with this thing.

54:58And they're like, okay, just keep us posted. And then even when he came, I was like, so we could get you on a flight out if you want to. I went, no, mate, I've got to do this. And I sat and watched it, watched the game with it. And it's the best feeling in the world, mate. Scary? Fuck yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm a little bit scared about it. You should be scared. But that means you care. my advice to you is are you squeamish no I'm alright just go full I'm going to go full yeah just embrace it embrace it all it's like messy as fuck no no I'm not yeah it is there'll be shit flying everywhere do you know what I mean I thought who was it was it Pixie or was it Felix I think it was our fourth our fourth Pixie um the midwife was like oh do you want to help like bring her out and stuff i was like yeah fucking yeah i think and as we like pulling her out i went to hand her to daisy like skin on skin immediately like that and then she's so slippery i think she's like slipped off her stomach and gone off the edge of the bed and the midwife that's like oh god like that and then i was like oh fuck my mum was telling me that when she had it for the first time she was like get a spin on you and she was like oh oh my god like someone clean the head fuck it stinks wash it clean a bit of the head wash it I was just kissing it you got like brown like what's going on man it's incredible mate it'll be it's obvious, but it would completely change your life.

56:51Uh, in more ways than, you know, like the perspective of it all, the, the fact that you're now responsible for keeping another human being alive. Like, but you just do it. Do you know what I mean? You just, you work it out. And Daisy was, is a natural. She was like born to be a mom. Absolutely incredible. And yeah, you just have so much fun. I know, and you'll be great, mate. You'll be great. But do prepare yourself. Do prepare yourself. It's no good giving people advice or getting advice off people because it's always different. It's always different. But I think you'll love it. You'll really love it.

57:39Rugby is a brutal sport in terms of like on the body, right? Like your body gets battered. Everything gets battered. I saw this really, really sad interview with Steve Thompson, 2003 hooker, who's now got dementia. And he said he always wished he'd never played it. He said he wanted to be a bricklayer, wished he'd been a bricklayer, because he can't even remember the sport. And so you've got people like that, and so people go through different things, and then you're left. And it's not like football where you're left with millions and millions of pounds. No, you're not. But that's because you can't compare the two because millions and millions of people like and watch football.

58:19So there is millions and millions of pounds available in that. Not many people watch rugby, but they do and they don't. It's not a big sport, is it? We've got teams going bust all the time. It needs some help in growing it. But yeah, your point on Steve Tottenham, it's a dangerous game. Yeah, of course it is. Do you ever worry about that? I never did. And then I had kids and then I sort of semi did. And then it got back to the last few months of my career before I'd made the decision to knock it on the head where a lad, I was on the bench and me and Danny Kerr sat there watching this game. This lad got tackled from behind and his whole leg snapped and was facing the wrong way.

59:10And we did exactly that with something like, Oh God, this is a shit sport. And he goes, well, it's not a shit sport. It's given us so much. It was like, yeah, but I think we should, I don't want to like, am I dealing with that ankle facing the wrong way when I've got four kids at home? And do you know what I mean? It was like, I think when, as soon as you start thinking like that, then you're, then that's time. It's time because you're only going to get, you're only going to get hurt. Do your kids play rugby? No. They can't stand it.

59:48They're sick of it. They've had enough of it. Do you know what I mean? My eldest, Jasper, he's 11, obsessed with football. Good at football? Yeah, good. Good at football. Loves it. Loves all sports. But when I retired, I told them that I was like, I'm not playing anymore. They're like, no, no more rugby. I was like, no, no more rugby. And they're like, Jasper went, oh. what? Does that mean I can't go on the pitch after the game and play football? Like that was his disappointment. He was like, I think it would be a bit weird if you still went on the pitch and played football and I wasn't there anymore.

1:00:25That's a bit weird. He's like, that's a bit shit. No, they've been great, mate, but they've never really took to rugby. But you're happy that you had your career that you did? yeah I'm fucking I got to throw a ball around and whack people for a job so give it to me when you're in a World Cup final give it to you give it to me I just want to feel the feeling so take us to 2019 it's World Cup final we're in Japan the tours it's been amazing did I see you pre-tournament yeah you did did you do something no you were doing something I did something with Hugo did you not come out Yeah, I came out for it.

1:01:06Oh, you did come out for it? But not for the actual, I came out for like the first game. Oh. One of those fans. No, mate, I wanted to come out. And why didn't you? It's far. Right. It's far to go all the way to Japan. Not that far for the first game. Yeah, yeah. But I was paid by O2 for that bit. Well played. Really well played. But that, so... World Cup final. Just give me the feeling of like... Insane. When you're running out on the pitch and it's the World Cup final. Yeah, you're like, it's just surreal you're like how the fuck am I here is it unreal how's this happened this is buzzing waking up in the morning of a World Cup final yeah it was weird you're just like well what do you do then should we go for a coffee what should we you have to like really settle yourself down like just because you can't you don't want to like overplay it in your head and you get to the final and you you burn out and you've already shot your load and you go oh maybe we should have took it a little bit more easy than we did because that's exactly what we did I think it was a combination of us not playing to our best and also South Africa just monsters they were unbelievable mate alright yeah we got that one when you're going down and just come versus Southern Lake South Africa it's what is the pressure on your body it's both the scariest one of the scariest places to be but at the same time the only place you want to be or i wanted to be as a prop going against the best like the very best the toughest there is out there that's where you want to go and you and then you want to you want to go well if i can do it i want to know and then if i can't do it i still want to know you know i mean if i get my head shoved up my ass i'd like to know that i can't do it so that i can say i'm not going to do it anymore the pressure on your body in that scrum yeah it's mega you've got like these giants against each other it's such a weird thing though when you try and explain it to someone who doesn't understand the world the normal world like then you go we just get eight men all together like bound up in one in one pack and then you get another eight men and then what you do is then you put your heads into the certain holes and you just push as fucking hard as you can whilst everyone's also pushing you up your ass whilst your neck's being folded like that and you go what sort of fucking game's this do you know what i mean this is bonkers uh but i loved it mate it was just apparently used to untie people's shoelaces yeah i told you like i would try and find any way i wasn't good at rugby i was good at certain things i.e scrummaging and tackling people because I didn't really have any care for my own sake.

1:03:58I just enjoyed that nature. It's whacking. So I had to find other ways to try and stay involved or get picked. Did someone fart? Who's farted in here? It's fine. Like we said, it's an open conversation. Who's farted for fuck's sake? But yeah. Was there a moment where you caught the ball in space and you were like, here we go. Was there a moment where you found yourself in space? Hang on, you should just go, was there a moment I caught the ball? Yeah. Let alone in space. Can you remember a time playing for England where suddenly you got the ball and you were like, what do I do with it? No. Never.

1:04:43Never. In all 95 caps, never. And my son has also never, he turned around and said I'll never respect you as a rugby player and I went what? it's very cutthroat I went unless you score a try for England and he said that like with 10 games to go like I didn't know and I was like oh my god I really need to score a try I need to get this validation from Jasper and we were playing Ireland in the Six Nations in 2024 and I'd come off the bench it was a really tight game we were down by a couple of points and uh danny care was on he was at the base of a ruck and i'm there i'm like two meters from the try line i've got alex donbrandt like next to me who's going to help push me over we've got penalty advantage so even everything everything everything everything like penalty advantage right in front of the sticks it doesn't matter what happens we're going to kick the goal, the penalty, and we're going to win the game.

1:05:48But it's a free shot. Give me the ball. I've got two metres. I weigh 130 kilos, mate. I'm backing myself to think. Teammate for 15 years, one of my best friends, Danny, give me the ball, give me the ball, give me the ball. And he looks up at me and then looks back down. And then Marcus Smith is out the back in the pocket waiting for a drop goal like thingy. looks at me looks down looks at Marcus looks down looks back at me picks up the ball goes to pass it flings it behind my back to Marcus who slots a drop goal and we win the game everyone everyone is screaming like the whole of Twickenham it was one of the best atmospheres I've ever had at Twickenham everyone's buzzing and if you look at the clip everyone's running around yeah celebrate bro you see me pretty much walk from that position where I was waiting for the ball walking towards the span what the fuck this is bollocks absolute bollocks that was my 90 second cap and i was like you piece of shit and i said to him i said why don't you pass me the ball mate he went i didn't think you'd catch it

1:06:59i love your screen give me the ball give me the fucking ball and he put it behind me and i was And then to give it to Marcus to have the drop goal, it's so unnecessary. We had the penalty. You can see how fucking worked up I am about it. I just played 95 games. I didn't score a single fucking point. That is bad, isn't it? That's mad. I actually think that's a record for things like that. You played 95 games with no points. No points.

1:07:30Okay We like to End the podcast With eight questions By the way I do want everyone Eight questions It's quick fire That's not a fucking Short end is it It's quick fire You'll like it You've had like A hundred questions Up until this Why didn't you just Do 108 No because this is better This is the format You'll like this Okay That didn't come up On my chat cheaply tea I also want people I want everyone to Listen to your podcast Things people do It's a great point I'd like you to come on it Why haven't you invited me on? Because we weren't friends until now

1:08:04Okay, eight questions Jay, you ready for this? No What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? That makes me happy What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? Do you know, I like a saying This too shall pass I like that one From Tom Hanks Yeah, it's my favourite I know when people go People quote like It's really good Socrates and shit like that. But I quote Tom Hanks. This too shall pass. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? You got great feet. What scares you most about yourself? Okay. Myself. Yeah, myself scares me most about myself. When was the last time you cried?

1:08:43Oh, good. I think it was last week. Yeah, it would have been last week. Really? Yeah. You wanted more. Worse up to you. there wasn't a secondary question there is going to be another question why did you cry

1:09:02because it was a realisation of like I'm still getting it wrong and I still need to I need to work harder at trying to sort my shit out like it's not it's not like yeah it's like fuck I've got loads to do still we all got that yeah and you're like well start fucking doing it rather than saying you're going to do it. What's something you can't let go of? Oh. Can't I let go of? What can't I let go of? When Ked didn't pass you the ball. Piece of shit. That, honestly. Yeah. Just get, you should just get him on. I'm going to. Don't do the whole thing. Don't give him that. Don't, just say, hello mate, how you doing?

1:09:48Obviously, you know the format of the podcast. We're going to do it slightly different. Why didn't you pass him the ball? That's it. and just cut just put it out as a Friday bonus there we go what can't I let go of I don't I think I let go of everything that's a good thing that's great that's what it should be like okay what's your guilty pleasure Judi Dench I love Judi Dench yeah man really like Judi Dench she's freaking the best or Valencia ice lollies Valencia Valencia orange you have to say Valencia you have to say Valencia same as like You have to say Bathalona. Bathalona. Yeah, Valencia Isla.

1:10:25Valencia Isla. Have you ever had a Valencia? No. Fuck off. Valencia Isla. You've never had a Valencia Isla. Valencia? No, Valencia. No, they good? Wonderful. I can't wait. Honestly, treat yourself. I'm going to. Yeah. I would send you some, but... They'll melt. Yeah. Yeah. What turns you off? Oh. There's not a lot that turns me off, actually.

1:11:02what really fucks me off loads there's loads I know there's loads what is it

1:11:13god's that no you gotta say I don't Do you know what? Peer pressure. Good one. That's a good one. Yeah. What turns you on? A nipple play. Really? That turns me off. Really? Yeah, it makes me think of a song. What's the song? Nobody likes me. Everybody hates me. I'd rather go and eat worms. That's not how the song goes. It is. Nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. go into the garden oh it is the song yeah yeah

1:11:53I need worms okay last one what's that got to do with nipples I don't know when I rub it that's what happens I don't know why what do you like when I rub it that's the clip it is when I rub it nothing happens hmm what do you like most about yourself er I've got I've got I've got a good back that's such a weak answer come on it's a fucking strong back what do I like most about myself it needs some work in fact that will be my advice to you it does need work I know you've got to remember they see they do what they see not what they're told but that's great advice that's how you'll really great advice man teach them stuff and it's a lot harder if you've spent a long time just expecting them to do what they're told as opposed and then you're doing the opposite do you know what i mean that's what i'll give you great advice there we go i love that okay jay marley you're the best baby i love you thanks

1:13:16I really, really enjoyed that episode. Joey, thank you so much for coming in. Thank you so much for being so open. The thing that I really took from this episode is we just got to talk more. And I think it's one of those things that we keep saying and talking about mental health. We got to get over the stigma of mental health. But what Joe did today on the episode, which is so important, is he labeled himself. He said, no, I went through depression. I went through these things. And that is far more powerful than just saying, we got to get over the stigma. So I applaud you, Joe, for being open and honest.

1:13:44And if you're listening to this right now, and you are one of those people who've also been suffering in silence, make sure you talk to someone, to a friend, to a neighbor, to a loved one, whoever it is, because being open and vulnerable is cool. It's the best thing you can do. If you haven't subscribed to our great company show yet, please do. It does its absolute wonders and I'll be thankful forever. And don't forget, we're going to be back next week for another episode. So we'll see you then.

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1:14:57Well, hello, everyone. This is Jamie. And this is Sophie. We're from the Nearly Parents podcast, and this is what we've got coming up on this week's show. We have Ella Rutherford and GK Barry on the podcast. Yeah, we do. We also have Jamie who can't stop sweating poop. And it's Sophie's birthday. Happy birthday, Sophie. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.