TRINNY WOODALL: I'LL BE MORE SUCCESSFUL IF THEY THINK I'M A MAN

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2:42Hello everyone, my name is Jamie Laying and this is Great Company.

2:52Hello. Oh, she's in there. Hello. Hello, hello Jemima. Hello, Jamie. I'm well. How are you? Do you think people have just switched off already? Maybe they have. Please, we will stop singing. Okay, we'll stop singing. Who are you? You just said it. I'm the producer, Jemima. And who are you? I am the host, Jamie Lang of Great Company. Welcome to our show. To all you new listeners, welcome to OGs. Our show. Why don't we want to sing today? I don't know. I quite like it. To the OGs, the original gangsters, welcome back to this show that you. listen to? The O-Ls. The original listeners. The O-Ls. The Owls.

3:30What could the original wonderful listeners? The Owls. Our Owls. Please, is that going to stick? Is that going to stick? Are you our Owls, our original wonderful listeners? Comment an owl emoji. If you are in our DMs at Great Company Podcast. Please do. Okay, today I'm very excited because we have Trini Woodall on the podcast. She's great. Real. She is a legend. And also, I'm good friends with her. Are you? I think I am. Was there not a story on Newlyweds, your podcast with your wife, where you said hello to her and she just ignored you? She was walking down the street and I shouted, Trini, at her and she walked straight past me.

4:08However, since then... That doesn't sound like a friend to me. She didn't see me. We FaceTimed recently. She said... You FaceTimed? Yeah, we... Are you actually our friends? We actually are friends. We FaceTimed. She laughed about it, apologised about not seeing me. She generally didn't see me. But Trini is amazing. She has been through addiction. She was at the height of television. She has now set up Trini London, which is a roaring success in the makeup industry. She's a complete powerhouse in so many ways. She's a mother. She's an incredible person. And I cannot wait to get her on. Yeah, I grew up watching her on What Not To Wear.

4:42Yes. Yeah, like such a good program. Also, a lot of the clothes they're wearing there, which you're like, disgusting. People are wearing now. Yeah, it's full circle. Full circle. Full circle. So I'm very excited. I think we just kick on with it. Yeah, kick on. Are you ready? Rock on. Rock on. Rock on. Rock on with it. Okay. Fly on with it. Now, owls, come on owls. Come on. Everyone's just left. You cannot say hoot, hoot. If we ever do a live show, we should come on with us being like, hoot, hoot. And then the audience have to hoot back. Oh my God. I just don't think I could possibly do it. Okay.

5:19This is my last appearance on the show. Are they our little owls? Our wonderful, original wonderful listeners. Oh my Lord. Okay, ready? Here we go. Everybody, please enjoy this episode of Great Company with Trini Woodall. Do you sleep on this side? Yes. Yeah, because that brow is a bit further tucked in. Yeah, but I have something to sort that out later. We'll do that later. Yeah. I know you're going to spend the whole podcast now wondering about that. Where the fuck am I on this side? You're meant to be sitting on that side then because now you can see my dipping eyebrow. No, it's all right. I can comb it up later and do some work with it.

5:56I'm Trini Waddell and I'm in great company. What do they say? They say there's drains and then there's uppers? What is the... There's a drain and then there's... Okay, look it up quickly. There she is on the left. There's a drain and then there's something... But you're the opposite of drain. You definitely bring people up. Have you felt those low moments? Yes. Or do you not allow yourself to get there? I have felt those low moments. You have? Definitely, yes. Lots of times. Radiators. Radiators. Radiators. Drains or radiator. That's it. So I had that moment. Susanna and I had worked together for 10 years.

6:31Where did you guys meet? Susanna was working for The Telegraph, writing about women's cricket. She just had an affair with Imran Khan for a few years. And she's still with David Lilley. I don't know. She was doing one thing or the other. Yeah, something happened. Something happened. So she was doing that. And she wanted to do something else. So then there was me and I was trying to do business. And I hated business. My dad was a businessman and I was just trying to do it. But I had no qualifications, nothing. I always felt a fraud. I felt so fraudulent and it wasn't working. But I... What, because you didn't understand it or you felt out of place?

7:09I was so out of place. It was me and many men on a trading floor. I was trying to fit in. So I kind of swore like a trooper. And, you know, we were doing puts and stops and butterflies and options and commodity trading. The arse end of things, really. It is the arse end. Commodity trading can be the arse end. I did physicals and then futures. Just quickly, out of how many people were you? Were you the only woman? There was a secretary in the front room and then there was me in the sales team. And then there were about 60 men. Yeah. How do you hold your own in that scenario? Yeah. You develop this sort of skill of just becoming one of the boys.

7:49I, in that environment, the only way I thought I could succeed was to become one of the boys. So they were all loutish. Imagine the most loutish of your friends. And that was this collection of people. I'm in my twenties and I think I've got to dress like a boy. So I get my, raid my father's wardrobe. I come into work in the winter in his cover coat. I get my suits from Miss Selfridge, but I go and take all the buttons off and I go to the button queen in Marely Bonne Lane and I get livery buttons on my suits. I then buy, you know, with my salary, I buy Ferragamo men's shoes. No, Fratelli Rossetti men's, men's brogues.

8:25And I just became a boy. It was the only way I felt, because I had never felt sexy, feminine, booby girl. All right. So I couldn't lean into let's be ultra feminine in this male world. That wasn't me. And I always felt more comfortable to be slightly masculine. So I leant into that. And I even had quite a low voice. A lot of the people who were my clients thought I was a man. On the phone? Yeah. I had this client. Because you purposely did that? I, I've always had quite a low voice. But I had one client who was this Nigerian and you did everything by phone and you were trying to sell them a fund.

9:05And I remember I'd chat to him every day and he'd call me up and he thought I was a man. And I realized only off the second call when he started sort of saying, oh, when I come to London, can you take out some saucy bars? And I was like, oh, fuck. And then the time came when he said, I'm going to come to London and I want to give you, you know, 250 grand, this fortune. And I was so excited. But I thought he's going to meet me. And because he's going to discover I'm a girl, this is not going to work. work so I took the person sitting next to me who was my sort of buddy and I said you've got to be me so we went in you used to record all the conversations then so we went into the recording room and I went back on all the conversations I had with him and I said look listen to the conversations you so you know what we've been talking about so he does that and I said I'll split the commission with you so then I he comes that day the day he comes to the office and Philip is in the room with him and I'm the secretary just in case he makes some mistakes and I can pass him notes or something.

10:05So I'm the secretary. And so Philip negotiates it and remembers to say the things I said before, signs a deal. But that was the way that I did it. But do you really think if he had realised that you were a woman, he wouldn't have done the deal with you because you were a woman? He was a very alpha man. And I think that he would have been really embarrassed by the conversations we'd had. Or would he have been pleasantly surprised? Oh, he'd have been embarrassed by the conversations you were having. Yeah, and then realised I was gone. Don't forget, this is not the, this is the 80s. You weren't even born.

10:3888. All right. This is actually 89. So you were a year old. I was a year old. You're a year old and I'm trading commodities. All right. That's, yeah. So that's what it was then. And it was, it was quite different. But, but, okay. Okay. But then do you think that in life, because you would have realised at some point that he realised that you were a man and you didn't say anything back. You just sort of went, okay, I'm going to keep going. Yeah, yes, I did. I did. And there was something that made me feel I will be more successful in this stage if he thinks I'm a man still.

11:20it sounds inconceivable to you but then it was really I really I knew it to be true so much because it makes what happened okay when I did Made in Chelsea for many years right I realised very quickly I would do a scene and people would find it funny and I went okay I've got to be funny there and then I did another scene and then I would be really loud and they go god you're so energetic so loud so it'd have to be more and so I became this I became this version of myself, which becomes exhausting. When you're not being truly authentic to yourself. You become exhausting, yes. You become your drain.

11:57And if you are going into, you're trading with men, you're becoming more masculine because that's what you feel like you have to. I was swearing like a trooper. I'd go home and my dad would say, what happened to you? What happened to my daughter? The thing is, Jamie, I was never successful in it. I was always, you know, I always say the thing that I went to. In your eyes, that is. No, no, no. In everybody's eyes. Okay. Okay, there was Black Monday and I was the first one out the door, you know, last one in, first one out, for sure. I would go to the, I talked about this, I'd, you know, go in on the tube in the morning and I'd have the Financial Times on the outside and I'd have the Daily Mail on the inside every day.

12:31You know, I pretended, pretended, pretended because I had no idea. You know, I had to do my Series 3 mercantile exam, Chicago Stock Exchange mercantile exam. I looked at it and I thought, this is gobbledygook, you know, I just, how I passed, I don't know. But I really didn't do well at it. In any way you could look at it, and I realised I've got to leave. Two things here. Firstly, I disagree. No, I was really bad, Jamie. No, I think you were, but you still got it. That's what's so interesting. You still got it. You didn't look at it and you think the 80s, okay, I don't fit in here because it's a different time, all these different things going.

13:12You thought, no, I'm going to go and do that. and you went and did it. Which for me, that is, that's the winner there. You actually went and did it. Again, I remember when my mum said to me, I was 18 years old, she said, you can't get a job. And I said, I'll get a job. She said, no, you can't. And so I walked up to Byron Burger restaurant. Yes, I remember. On Kennedy High Street. And I walked in there and I said, hi. And they went, hi, who are you? And I said, I'm here to apply for a job front of house. And they went, okay, what's your experience? I said, I've had many years experience. You're doing this and this with my dad and all these different things.

13:43Made a complete lie. and they went, okay, you start on Thursday. And I came back and I was so bad. I was, there was one moment when my first week where the, I don't know, something happened in the kitchen, nothing was working. These people said to me, where's our food? And I didn't know what to do, so I just walked off. I was so, but the victory is actually getting there and putting yourself in that situation. Did people think you were as bad as you were? Yes. Did you get fired? No, well, I kind of gave up. Yeah, you didn't get fired. I got fired. There's a difference. I got fired. All right. So I've got to, this is my win.

14:18You can try and have the win, but you walked out. You didn't get fired. They thought you were good. You had this thing that what you felt inside was so profoundly different from what people saw. So maybe your trajectory is how those two have come together. Whereas before there was more front than Brighton Beach. And it was about your leaning into yourself and actually becoming a bit of something and not the fakery. You're on the training floor. You're doing that. Okay. I just want to know this. So why did you decide to do that? If you didn't really want to do it, you knew you were better. Who are you trying to impress?

14:50My dad. There we go. Yeah, there we go. There we go. Classic. Now we're on the third of the chair. She'll be right back. Now I open you up. Oh, yeah. Sorry, Jamie. It's a classic. It's a classic. I'm the youngest kid. My dad married twice, had six children, and had a very close relationship with my sister. and I didn't have a close relationship. I didn't really have a close relationship with either of my parents because I went away to school very young and I just think I didn't connect with them. You know, my mum had a lot of help and so we didn't see her much and then I went to boarding school.

15:28So by the time I got out and I was 16 out of boarding school and I went to London, my parents weren't living in England so I lived with my sister, totally went crazy, and hardly finished school and then had no qualifications and had to go straight to work. So I thought, how can I do something that can impress my dad? So I then started my first job. I worked, well, I did lots of different things over time. I sort of worked in doing PR and different things. But one job, I think my second or third was going to work for a friend of mine who had a physicals trading house in Coco. And I worked there.

16:06And I was their assistant. And so I just learned about physical market. And then from that, I learned about the future commodities market. So then two years later, I went back in and I got a job blagging to work as a trader, not a trader, as a salesperson. Big difference between trading and salesperson. What's the difference? Trading, you're on the floor, you're going 50 at 30, 50 at 30. And sales is like, yes, please do buy our fund. But still being quite, you know, you do a little bit of the market's really great today. You've got to jump in today. It was really the arse end of, it wasn't the glamorous end of hedge fund management today or whatever it might be.

16:41It was the arse end of trading. And I was in it. I was like the bottom of the shoe. So, but I thought at least I'm in there. And there's a lot of drugs. A lot of drugs. A lot of drugs. And so instead of doing what I thought it would do for my relationship with my dad, is he was sort of what's happening to you. and you're not the person I recognize. It actually did the opposite. So there was a moment when I sat down and he said, what's happened to you? This is when I was about 22.

17:16And I thought, oh, wow. And I said, I take drugs. Because suddenly there was convenience about my admitting it to my dad. You know, there was that sense of we can latch on to something here. We're connected. Because I can't think what else it could be. It's not that. I'm still enjoying drinking drugs. But let me just say that. Because he said, you're not the daughter I recognise. You use that vulnerability to connect. In a way. In a way. You're reading too much in it. I wanted an out from this difficult conversation. So I just thought, let me just... So you just said it. So I just said it. And we were around the kitchen table, I remember in it so well.

17:52And my dad said, well, now you've told me, you must stop. And my brother said, I think it's going to be a bit harder than that. I think she's going to need some help. So my brother was always my champion. He was really my champion. My sister was four years older and the love, you know, my father and my sister got on really well together. My brother was lost in between. My mother sparked me, but I had a just uncomfortable relationship with her. And so my brother just said, I think it would take longer. So then I went to rehab and I remember they sold this table to pay for rehab. it was a lovely library table and they sold it and I remember when I came out and when I relapsed I always heard about that table I always heard about that table and it was sort of you know we could still have the table you just so you just said it at the table because you thought God I need to get out of this awkward situation I'm just going to say it I think we've all been there at some stage of that feeling where we just we can't admit what's right underneath because we just don't know.

19:01We can't vocalize it. So we just say the thing that's the most surface, because taking drugs is not about taking drugs. Taking drugs is about filling the hole. You know, so I couldn't vocalize the fact that I found it really challenging to fill this hole I felt in my life because that was too complex for me to vocalize. But I could say to him, well, I'm taking drugs because that was a superficial thing that he could understand was a tangible thing. And it was, it was my excuse for my behavior. You know? But also you don't really mean it because you're just saying it. So then you'll, you go to rehab and you're just like, or did you kind of mean it?

19:40I did mean it because there's still that tiny bit of you. You've got to really hit enough of a I've had enough. And there was a part of me that morning, you know, I might've had a wild weekend thinking I've had enough. I'm just so tired by this. But those moments are momentary. and then you get better again and then you just think I'm fine. And then it's a compounding of those moments that actually makes you stop using. There wasn't enough to lose. There wasn't enough to lose. You know, I was still living at home. Things were a bit safe. I had a salary. You know, there just wasn't enough to lose.

20:15So then why at 26 was there something to lose? because what I'd lost was more than a physical rock bottom. You know, I had lost friendships. I'd lost my sense of humor. I'd lost vibrancy. I felt my light had gone out. And that loss is so tangible, you know, and that's what made me stay clean and because you because you'd all because i know exactly what you're saying because amongst all the chaos you still had the charm and you still had the wit and you still had this and that and all those kind of things so oh yeah that's all whatever but i you know hey it's okay it's okay then that light goes that's when you go oh hang on a second something needs to change here because this isn't right yeah i've lost my mojo i've lost my spark Yeah.

21:18We went on a tangent, but you were talking about Susanna and how you became friends. So how did that relationship form? So we meet and I have this idea for this column in the Telegraph, not in the Telegraph, but just something where you go and you'd get honest advice as to what to wear. And there was not, you know, it was a very different time from what there is now. There wasn't much to choose from that was in the high street. and it was all, you know, in magazines months later and therefore wasn't in the high street anymore. If it ever got, if high street clothes ever got into Vogue magazine, they'd sort of cut something and make it just for Vogue, but it would never be produced.

21:51So it was really different from now. But she loved the idea and I told her the idea and this friend who introduced us, she then called me the next day and said, can I take your idea? And I was like, no, you can't fucking steal my idea, but we could do it together. So we then work on it together. And then she has an editor who's saying, I've got this whole page free. I've just moved over from motoring to page three, the weekend section of the Telegraph. You have no history. We have no. Susanna has experience in writing women's cricket. And I have no experience. But I've had 15 years by the stage of every single girl who comes to my apartment, ending up in my bathroom, seeing makeup, what they should use, skincare, what they should use, going in my bedroom.

22:34So people followed me for that. So I knew amongst a very small group of people that people came to me because they knew I would know, which is the kind of one first time ever I felt confidence in my ability. I was going to say, yeah. Just quickly before we go, do you not see the pattern? I don't know. You're not a therapist. No, I know. Tell me the pattern you think you see. I honestly see the pattern. The pattern with you is this. I think success is driven by risk and the ability to be brave. And there are these pockets throughout your life where something becomes problematic and you go, okay, that needs to stop or that needs to change.

23:21People don't typically change. They don't move. They stay doing the same thing forever because they like the monotony and the routine of it. And you don't. You're constantly, whether good or bad for you, you stick at it. But then if you sort of go, oh, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to move here. I'm going to move here. I'm going to move here. I'm going to move here. And you're figuring out the whole time what works for you. Most people don't do that. What I used to do, which I don't do now, and this is the big difference. And I've got two people living with me right now who are in their very early 30s and they're starting two new businesses.

23:55And I notice it in them and I challenge them on it, which is in my 20s, I'd always, if one thing wasn't working totally, I'd move on to the next because I wasn't prepared to have the patience to make it work. because there's a big difference between what you deem to be people who are being monotonous doing the same thing and somebody who's being dynamic. There is that in-between where, or the extremes, where you'll just change because you don't like what's in front of you. So instead of actually proving to yourself you can succeed at something, you just change to the next. And I did that with, I had this business called Socket To You, and, you know, the socks started to, you know, disintegrate, and I just moved on.

24:30You know, I didn't think let me resolve the problem. So there were moments when I had these little businesses, And then when I felt I had another business called Mission Impossible, which would have been called now today quintessentially. But it was, you know, what are the best things in London to do? And you would retain us. A concierge. A concierge service. And I got stationery made for it. You know, that's the first thing I always did. Because I got the stationery made. Because this feels proper. Because it feels proper. It made you think it was proper. Because then the imposter syndrome goes, because I've got a card.

25:00I've got a card. Here we go. It's unlimited. I have a card. Mission Impossible, I have a card. Sock it to you, the stock company. I have a card, all right? It was always so important, but it was that slight, when it doesn't work, leave it. And with Trini London, when I have a challenge, I work through it. So there's been a shift in how I look at things now. But it's entrepreneurial. Yeah, I can see it. You're going throughout your life finding these distractions and just going, okay, I'm going to try this, do this while this is going. This is how I fund my life, but this is actually what I want to try and start doing.

25:42So you then start writing this article in the newspaper with Susanna. Yes. Okay. Again, this is just like you having this sort of amazing blind belief that you can just go and do it, which is just amazing. It becomes successful. And then what happens next? So it was successful for about eight years. Yeah. About two years into it, a woman who was starting, this is like Dinosaur Land, but Sky Cable TV had not started in England. We were at Analog. And B-Sky B was the first bit of cable. And this woman called Diana Nelms. This is 1940. Yeah. This is, this is, this is two, this is, when is this? This is 2001.

26:27Okay. Or 2000, 2001. Yeah. And so that's starting. And she wants some quick TV. So she commissions the show for us called Girls Who Shop. Nobody saw this show. Nobody, thank God. So it was filmed in my home. And we went up and we took people shopping. And then there was also another bit where we had people on the sofa. No, we had people on my bed. And we had a chat with them in a sort of poorly Yates way on the Big Breakfast. but this was before that of having this interview with. And we interviewed actually people. I look at it and I think, my God, we interviewed those people, which I hadn't realised we had.

27:04So we did this show, watched by 400 people. It was on Granada, really, you know. And it was on Granada, regional TV. And I thought, God, that's never going to take off. And then we did the online business because I was obsessed and then that failed. And then the BBC, we'd done a pilot for BBC and then the BBC came along. And so we did the BBC as we were doing the column. And then we did a book. So we'd done a book before we did telly. And the book was based on this image we used on the tube for advertising ready to. And it was about everyone is different. So Susanna was there naked. We have a habit of nakedness, but naked for the waist up with melons on her breasts.

27:47And there was a picture of me looking a bit scrawny with fried eggs on my breasts. and it was everywhere. You couldn't miss it. Whose idea was that? BBH, very big advertising agency. And they came back with this idea and we were like, that's it. You know, we even had, I remember cards, the cards. Back again. Cards back again. But that was my business card, the melon and the fried eggs. And sunny side up or down. And so we had this whole campaign and it was, you know, kind of fantastic. And we did the book and it had the same cover. We sold 13 ,000 copies, which today might be okay, but then...

28:19That feels like a lot. Yeah, but I didn't think it was great. And so we then did the TV show and we had this agent. They said, why don't you do a book? And so we couldn't get an advance from anyone. So we then did quite a good deal where we got a much higher percentage of the book sales than you would normally get. You normally get an advance and then you get a percentage of sales once you've earned out a royalty. And not many people earn out their royalties because people get big advances, but they gave us a tiny advance like five grand. But they gave us a very big percentage because they thought they'd never gone out that royalty.

28:51So it was something like over 20 ,000 copies. We would begin to get this percentage and we sold a million copies of the book. So it did really well. And that book, which was also called What Not to Wear, was probably in every 10 households in the country. And I remember one week, I had no sense of what success looked like with the books. It was just, we'd done it and we'd written like these basic rules that we talked about all the time. And the woman called up and said, you sold 47 ,000 copies this week. And I was like, is that a lot? She was like, yes. So we were number one for months. It was really great.

29:28And then we went to America and we did the Oprah show and Oprah sort of made you or broke you. So we were unknowns doing the Oprah show and we did two shows with her. Intimidating? Profoundly. And there's a certain way that you work with Oprah. What is she like, just quickly, as a lovely, kind, warm, you know, professional? She's a phenomenal, unbelievably professional phenomenon. So to begin with, we didn't know her, she didn't know us. So we are sitting on the, it's a live recording, so we're sitting on the stage, as it were. There's an audience, a live audience, and then she comes in, she's the star.

30:06And everyone claps, and then she says, she presents this to Susanna, know, they're going to tell us about genes and we're going to learn about the mom gene, which is now a very fashionable gene. But we were just saying this is the worst gene in the entire world, right? Which it was at some stage out of interest. And I think when you become a mom, the mom gene becomes something totally different because your body's changed. You've had a baby and it's like, no, the mom gene does not work. It works on people who are not moms. I still believe that profoundly today. So we've sort of went around Chicago, you know, sort of saying she's in the mom gene and this is what's not good about it and this is why she has changed it.

30:40We put her in the right gene. And Oprah had this amazing, she taught me a few things, but she taught me this one thing, that when you are talking to an audience, you tell them once, you tell them again, and you tell them a third time, and that's when, you know, they hear it, they notice it, it goes in. So you need these three repetitions of something to really send that point home. So an example of that would be... So Susanna and I would say some statement and she would say, so let's say we were talking about your body proportions, all right? And I would say that if you're pear-shaped, a drainpipe gene will make your hips look bigger.

31:17So wear a bootleg. So she goes, if you're a pear, this or this and this or this. And then she'll say it later on in a different way. Sorry, is she here? That was phenomenal. That was unbelievable. No, that was not. That was terrible. That was unbelievable. So she taught me that. And then the third time we went on, and then that show we did. Did that make you? No. So that show, this is her audience. So we had 29 million people watching it. I know. I mean, they had amazing figures then. And we were like in her tenth higher show. Yeah. So then in the third show, so she's realized that the American audience is liking us.

31:58and then in the third show she lets us come on after she sat down because we're now talking about our book so she wants to give us more of an importance because we're now authors instead of experts talking about fashion so we came and we did that and then our book went to number one in the New York Times from that show so her impact was profound didn't stay there very long but I have that number one New York Times and so she taught me a lot of things she is an incredible woman. And I think she has, at the time, if you look at what she was doing at the time, now it might be she seems of the past to some people, but at the time she was so ahead of her game, not just, you know, forget about being a woman of colour in that space, but just for how she spoke to women and what she challenged, it was amazing compared to what there was on TV then.

32:46So I learned a lot from doing those shows. We did about six, seven shows with her. And then we actually signed a contract with them to do a, because they used to take talent and make tv shows with them and then something happened and we didn't end up doing it what happened i can't say no i really this is not because this would then be in the daily mail i love it how you say something happened something happened something i just didn't it didn't happen it just didn't it was a missed opportunity and it didn't happen i'm not going to go into details okay don't go into details but but um when you realized that opportunity was going away because that's a big opportunity.

33:20Yes. That must be upsetting. Yes, but Susanna and I were already pregnant as well. And that wasn't the reason why, but we were pregnant. So there were other things happening. Why do you stop the show with Susanna then? Because it was so successful and so great and everyone... Because other people started to watch other things. Everyone has a cycle, Jamie. Like Made in Chelsea, is it still as popular as it used to be? Not since I've been on it. Okay, sorry. I just fed you that bloody line, didn't I? I fed you that line. I really did. Hey, Liz, I'm just truthful. I don't know. Absolutely. Notice he's going red if this is a very faded out lighting here.

34:00He's slightly embarrassed by his benevolence around himself. But it does. Everything has cycles. Everything's the tide. So we had a cycle and we were, you know, we had the book, we had the show. Really, really popular. Went from BBC Two to BBC One. And then we went to ITV and it's amazing how, and this is something in our world today is, do you bring your audience with you or do they want you to be what they discovered you as and they're not prepared for you to evolve? This is a great, really big, something. And this is something last week, actually, that really happened to me when I was thinking about that concept, because they want to own the discovery of you to themselves and to what it did for them and to their friends.

34:38And then when you slightly change that messaging, they're like, no, but this please go back in that box that made me feel this is what I got from you. Everyone wants to everyone wants you to be their secret. This is the reason why I think Netflix do a great job. right? So I think Netflix do a great job. My own personal take is because I can sit with you and I'll go, God, have you seen that show Baby Reindeer? Have you seen it? And you go, no. And I go, oh my God, you got to watch it. It's our secret together. They don't market it on screens and stuff like that. So everyone wants to be, as soon as you become not a secret, it's not interesting anymore.

35:11And so that's funny with the audiences. I was like, this is what I find with the influencer market where people think that you can just hand influencers money and they promote your product. I just, for me, it's not a, it's Things need to be a secret. But things aren't always succeed. And then you've got to look further than that, Jamie, because that's looking in a very small thing, I've got to say, because Coca-Cola is not a secret and it's very successful. So then what is it that that thing that initially was a secret, how does that then break through and stay permanently successful? Because that is the difference between breaking through 50 million and building a business and failing.

35:47And then we get on to Trini, right? So Trini, like, say, here we go. because this is... Okay, take Coca-Cola as an example, right? Yes. The reason why Coca-Cola is so magnificent, is that the right word, is because you can get Coca-Cola in your local chicken shop, but you can also get in a Michelin-style restaurant. Transcends wherever it's sold. It is its own entity with its own authority. It doesn't matter where it sits. Doesn't matter. Phenomenal brand marketing. How? How does it do that? That's what I... with Trini London I feel and I'm Shall I tell you what's clever about it? Yes. And this is what it is.

36:26Can I take my take first? Oh yes you take your take and then I'll give you my take. No you tell me you are on a roll. I don't know if I am because I'm not I'm male I'm you know I'm not getting up in the morning and using your products but I know that my mother does and I know loads of people that do. Oh God because I it feels accessible to everyone of that certain age group for women. It feels like it's, it feels premium, but affordable premium that you can get and it's authentic and you trust it and you believe it. Have I just murdered it or is that? You've murdered it slightly. But we were talking more interestingly, I want to talk about Trinidad, it's lovely, but generalistically of how do you take something that was a secret and that was something that was shared and you were going back to Baby Rain Deer and Netflix, et cetera.

37:22And then it becomes huge and it's a unstoppable train. Correct. Because that's what everyone wants is starting a business is how do you go from one to the other? Yeah. Niche to phenomena, global brand. Yeah. Which is my trajectory. So I feel that when you launch something, there's things that are fundamentally the DNA of the brand, which never change. And then there's the way you talk to your audience. And if it's this particular audience, that needs to adapt every five years. So for us, we're that woman, primary market 35 to 45. So the woman who, when we launched was maybe 45 is now 50 or 53.

38:01So she's on the ride and she knows the journey and she's just, I don't need to talk primarily to her now because she's on her journey with Trini London. But I need to talk to that new set of people who are jumping in. And that new set of people who are jumping in are now millennials, because millennials have turned 40. And the messaging that I would use to talk to a millennial is so profoundly different than that I would talk to somebody who is a Gen X. Because a Gen X, or Y, Gen Y, it's Gen X is very short, Y, and then millennial, and then Gen Z. You know better than me. Okay, I don't know. Whichever one it is, but it's the one before.

38:39No, there's three in between Boomer and Millennial. Okay. Or there's two in between Boomer. Whatever it is. Jemima's going to write them down online. Yeah, fine. That's great. So we're going to work it out. But that woman who I'm talking to now, the one I talked to before, it's let me hold your hand and take you on a journey and teach you about skincare and routines and what different ingredients are and how to do your makeup so you are just... Too shiny. So you really, you look fantastic. You don't look like cakedown. we have this sort of freshness. Now, when I talk to the person who's just coming in, for me, it's saying, you know the difference.

39:19I'm not going to presume you're needing to have your hand held maybe as much as that person five years older than you who didn't have that education when they were 20. But in your 20s, as a millennial, you were the center of the world. In your 30s, you were the center of the world still, but you touch 40 and suddenly you might, You know, you wallpapered your rented apartment. You just made everything the centre of your life. And you spent all your money on yourself. And now there's a tiny bit of growing up you've done where you're perhaps deciding if you want to, that you want to be a mum or other things are coming to your life which don't always put you at the centre of your life.

39:54And that's when your ear is open to hearing somebody else's opinion a bit more or getting help. And so the way. And you knew that because of personal experience, right? Yeah. So you felt it. You were like, okay, this is what it is. So with my whole team now, I'm saying I really want to see assets where we talk to that woman. Because we've spent a long time talking to this first woman who came to the brand at the beginning of the brand. And this is where I'm – the ad for Coca-Cola has changed. There was an ad for Coca-Cola, which is the sexy man making your window clean. And that was for that woman to feel that's what it gives me.

40:28If I can't have the man, I can have a great Coke. And then it moved on to something else. So it's still Coca-Cola. It still tastes the same. There's still that thing at the end of it's efficacious. So my product is still efficacious. It still do the work. But the way I tell the story has to adapt to that person of today who has different things around them that influence them, but is the same age group as that person before, because they grew up with different things. So basically what you're saying is that you constantly need to be swimming rather than treading water. If you're treading water, then you're sort of dying because you're just staying in the same thing you've always been doing.

41:02And actually you constantly need to move and adapt the whole time in order to make it successful. You have to change. You have to understand the nuance of telling your story to a slightly an audience coming into it now. And what is the nuance you have to change so they hear you? So how much do you think you, personality, is the success of the brand? This is something at the moment that is a big deal for me for many different reasons. So when we started the brand, I was four table legs. All right. Because I held up the brand. Got it. I don't understand what you were saying. So I held up the brand.

41:38So here is Trini London and Trini Woodall's here and here. Yeah, you got it now. I would say now we're at two and a half. So the only way I can measure that is we have, you know, I have a few million followers on my social. We have nearly a million across different socials for Trini London. And those audiences overlap, but not fully. So I can look at who are those people who just came straight to Trini London without coming through me. And how many people don't know what I used to do in my life or they think Trini London is a brand. And those are people who have been told about it by somebody else.

42:12and they're just talking about the product now. They're not saying Trini, who was obsessed with skincare because she had acne, dental and that story. They're saying, this is a great retinoid. You must try it. So that is where I want to get to because that gives greater value to the whole proposition. That is, for me, a very solid business. So if I was knocked over tomorrow by a bus, the company will be fine. Yeah, but Trini, I think you are... It's interesting, right, because I see some correlations with my brand, Candy Kittens, right, which is where it was based on me as a personality, but also the product has to have longevity.

42:49Has to. More than anything else, candy kitchen has to taste good. Has to. And what you're selling me as a marketing concept has to work. I have to feel it's sort of guilt-free candy or whatever, you know, that premise of it tastes delicious, it's not too naughty. All of that stuff. But it's interesting, I was walking through Birmingham Selfridges and you have a stand in there. I saw it, you have this stand in there. so from my take of the brand now but I know but if I didn't know you I would still know Trini and I would still consume it because I trust it I believe it it looks good all those kind of things so I think there's but actually at the same time every brand you want to connect with because you want to feel has an authenticity behind it yeah it's how you get so the the biggest success when you're a founder led brand and your name is not above the door so slightly different because it might take a bit longer if your name's above the door to transcend that so people when they think Charlotte Tilbury they think of it as a brand more than her.

43:43And for me, it's about how do you take the DNA of what I am, the energy, the emotiveness, the say it how it is, and make sure that in every single asset we create, there is that in some form and that it's empathetic. We are all about how we make you feel more than how we make you look. I am in my connection with people I have across social about how can I make you feel better? I don't say, how can I make you look better? It's like the golden circle of marketing. It's like Steve Jobs saying, I'm just going to make your life easier. He didn't say here, buy a computer. He said, I'm going to make your life easier.

44:19That was the heart of that golden circle. So we want to make you feel great. You know, to fearlessly feel your best self is our motto. So I'm going to do that by delivering you products that help you get there. And the more emotive it is, the more you can put the DNA of a founder into a brand and then allow that brand to have its own identity in life, but infused with emotiveness, which creates trust.

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46:26You talk about loneliness, and this is really interesting because I think so many people feel loneliness. I know. Man, I have this theory, right, that I have a theory that your 30s are quite lonely. My, it depends what you're doing in each decade. My 20s were lonely. Funny enough, my loneliest time in my life was nine to 11. Really? Yeah. I remember feeling profound loneliness. I didn't see my siblings much. They were at boarding school. I had been taken out of boarding school and put into a day school in Germany at an American day school. I didn't know the people. And then during the holidays, I just didn't have that many friends.

47:09I was really lonely. And I remember I had one or two friends and I was also bullied at school a bit. And so I felt I didn't know how to become friends with people, you know, and that probably, If I look back, I can feel myself in my room feeling really lonely. And then I don't know if I felt that lonely again until probably before I stopped using and I just felt there's nobody I want to call. There's nobody I feel I can call. and when you're left with that sense of who can i call and in the end i called somebody who'd been a therapist for me for a few months and i said please i've got this window today can you get me into rehab because i know that window will go and i just i need to remove myself from my life and get somewhere safe i think lots of people have that i remember 27 years old i was shooting made in chelsea and um uh we were going to the south of france to film out there and um partying and just just being chaotic in lots of different ways and I was living in a flat with a friend of mine who wasn't there and I remember sitting in the middle of the flat and thinking oh okay I've got this evening I didn't have a girlfriend nothing and I was leaving next time I thought okay who do I call and I swear to you I couldn't call anyone yeah yeah because all of my friends that I had made I had dropped because they weren't as exciting as everything new around me yeah and all of the people that I had made friends with were fickle friends at that time anyway.

48:43And so I was stuck in this sort of period, limbo period of just going, well, I'm too embarrassed and too ashamed to call all my old friends because I've sort of slightly ditched them over the past year. And these new people, I don't even really know what they're doing. So, and I, and that for me was a huge turning point where then I started doing therapy then. And I think so many people go there and so many people listening to it probably go through periods where they do that, where they, you know, find something new and exciting and all these different things and they get so wrapped up in it and suddenly they just go, shit, what's been happening?

49:18You become that television, you suddenly get lost in it all. I think the thing to remember, I mean, if anyone is listening to this or watching this, I think it's always good to put yourself in the position of other people. So if you have really good friends who were your really good friends and you feel you've stepped on top of them and gone to what looks shiny and newer. You've got to go back and think how deep were those friendships? Were they really solid? And if you were that person in the roles were reverse, would you take that call? And you would, because a friendship which has been nurtured in wellness, even if it becomes unwell, it still has a foundation of something.

49:56And ultimately, all those people who I stopped seeing when I was really not well, when I got well, I needed to just stay with people in recovery. So I didn't actually see any of my old friends. But after about a year, I begun to pick up the phone to people who had been those really old friends. And those are ones that were made through circumstance when I had been originally well. And they were always going to say, Trini, you know, I'm there for you. If you have an intention, which I can see is an intention where you want to really shift from where you've been at, where we haven't had anything in and I'll be there for you.

50:32I would be there for anyone who was like that. You know, there's people I've let go of in my life because I just see they go on this crazy path and I feel I don't want that sort of negative energy in my life. But if they called me up one day and said, I'm really fucked, I'd so be there for them. You know, it's just you're waiting for somebody to go on that path and find themselves a bit better. You have all these shining little lights. You really do. These amazing things, you know. you know I met your daughter she's beautiful amazing you have that you have your business you had these TV shows you also and I use the word pockets before pockets of darkness and you have dealt with grief how do you deal with grief because that is a really hard thing and it's something that I keep for some reason I don't know why thinking about at the moment because probably I'm in my 30s people don't live forever things happen and it it scares me a lot And I know people listening to this, maybe you're going through grief or they've had people who have, they've lost.

51:31How do you, because your ex-husband died. How do you deal with that? there's no there's no textbook answer to that question because everyone goes through different things and it was unexpected so there's you know somebody's going to die and then you don't know somebody's going to die because johnny took his own life and there are quite a few people who have been affected by suicide so death is terrible and final whatever but suicide is a permanent problem permanent solution to a temporary problem when you look at what it is. So

52:11that it's like that tsunami that comes, you know, and it kind of pulls the guts out of you. But you also, I have got inner strengths and I had a lot of people relying on me when that happened. And I needed to be the one who would look after everyone, because also it was a place I felt comfortable in to be the one who would just take care. And I had for a few years because Lila's father was not always well. So I've been the sort of person who'd done that within the family unit. So when Johnny died, we all helped each other, but maybe some of them looked to me to what to do next. And so that kept me strong because I felt I've got to be the one who can come up with the answers and do things.

53:01But also it made me feel lots of things going on at the time. It was not the best. You know, I was starting Trini London and I hadn't raised the money and I was living in a home that was too expensive. There were lots of things against everything. And it was the time when maybe I should knuckle down and made things as safe as possible for Lila. But I also knew that this was this crossroads in my life. And sometimes when you are faced with the worst thing you think could happen, because it was always the thing I dreaded, actually, that something like this might happen through. Why? Because you...

53:34Because Johnny was not always very well. And it was something in the back of my mind. And he'd always said the statement of 99 % of everything you worry about doesn't happen. And this was the 1%. And it had happened. So there was nothing worse can happen. There was this feeling I had, I remember, of nothing worse can happen now. So I should take the greatest risk, which was to then say, I'm not going to go and try and get a job. I'm going to start this business. Because there was that moment of friends saying to you, Trini, maybe you should just get a job. I don't know what the fuck I would get as a job, to be honest.

54:08But also, this is, I have nothing, you know, you could say I have more to lose because I could lose my house, which I did sell my house in the end to fund the business. But emotionally, I couldn't have lost more than to lose my daughter's father for her. You know, it was the biggest thing that would be significant in my life unless she lost me. So it makes you stronger. Then also other things happened where there was a lot of fallout. He left a bit of a mess. so I didn't grieve for many many years because I was dealing with this fallout and so I was a bit angry as well and anger can be a healthy thing sometimes to just you know not deal with stuff because anger is not anger always hides other emotions it's not an you know if anyone's gone to rehab they you say I'm angry that's not a feeling you know that's a state state of being what's underneath it that's always the thing was what underneath it but it was my fuel it kept me going just to deal with that whole process and it was only really quite a few years later that I missed him because also the memory of him the least well was faded and I remember and this weekend I was with people who really loved Johnny and quite a lot of the weekend we spoke about Johnny and it was so nice to just and you were able to were you able you were there was no sort Because they were just remembering all the great stuff.

55:43And they were there at the beginning of my relationship with him. And just how he was an unbelievably special person. He was flawed, but he was profoundly special. And he would be incredibly kind to people with no sense of their standing in life at all. Of anyone I know, whether he was sitting next to Prince Charles or chatting with the doorman outside a third-rate hotel in Tokyo, he'd find something in common with them. He would connect with them immediately. He was the most generous person, not always with his own money, but he was so generous. He would give up anything to help somebody else.

56:23You know, he had this feeling. He was incredible around children. You know, kids and teenagers loved him. And at Johnny's memorial, there were about 1 ,200 people came and probably 100 of them were kids who came, teenagers who came without their parents, who just had come across Johnny and he'd been their champion in some way. And, you know, he was a very, very special person. So I want Lila also, who doesn't remember Johnny so well. She does, but she's very Scorpio. She keeps it all low. But for her to remember these things, and it will be 10 years since Johnny died, so I think I want to do a dinner this year and just like, let's remember Johnny.

57:01Because for a few years, she didn't want to go to those dinners. Her brother did, but she didn't. She was just, she was too, it was too much in there. Just, you know. That's amazingly special. And also to juggle parenthood with all of that. You have your book, which is fearless. And I think you kind of, that's what you personify. You have to be this fearless person the whole time. You really do though, Trini. And that's, it's amazing. And you, it feels like there are lots of things that could have broken you and you have just always, which my mum always says to me, you've got to put one foot in front of the other.

57:33Yeah, it's such an old-fashioned expression. Keep going, keep going, one foot in front of the other and keep that life in your eyes. You keep going and that's what you've done. You've always just gone, we've got to keep going, we've got to keep going, we've got to keep going because it's very easy just to go, fuck it, I'm out. And you haven't done that. No, I can't do duvet therapy for more than a day.

57:55I have eight questions for you. Are you ready for them? Yeah. What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? No idea. What's a saying or phrase that cheers me up? You don't have to say it. You don't have to say it. Fuck, I had a really good answer. No, I had a really good answer and it's just gone out my bloody head. Perfect. That's good for the first one. We'll take that one. Yeah, you see, when I have to think about things, I'm not good at it. But what is it? If you don't think about it, what is it? What is it? If someone says something to you, like what is something? Oh, I know.

58:27Here we go. Hello, cunty. It's what Susanna texts me in the middle of nothing. And, you know, I might not spend time for two weeks. She goes, hi, cunty. How's it going? And it just cheers me up. It's our nickname for each other. I love that. I know. It's like that thing, that nostalgia. Yeah, it's a me. Everything comes up in two flashes. Yeah. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? This is an interesting one. It was not a person, but I always admired people who were, Jamie, are you a 30 under 30? Yes. You are. I am. I'm a 50 over 50. I missed out, obviously, on the 30 under 30. We're talking about Forbes.

59:06Yeah, Forbes magazine, this financial American magazine. They sort of make these lists. And 30 under 30 was the only list they had. And then I think people who were over kind of said, what about if I'm 40? And I'm starting really well. So they did this one 50 over 50. Well done. And it's kind of amazing when you look at the other people on the list. It's amazing. Because you feel, wow. you know so that was yeah that for me. And well deserved and good on you that is freaking awesome yeah that is cool um what scares you most about yourself? That I don't know when to stop. Good one when was the last time you cried and why?

59:45This is a weird one it takes going to take two seconds but I went a few weeks ago for some advice from somebody on share structure of a business. And they were quite a quirky character and somebody else had recommended them. And we were talking and I've been talking about the business and everything. And then they said to me, do you ever go to the office? And I, I always, some, it's probably a little weak spot for me because I have some people who sort of say to me when I say I'm the CEO and they go, but who really runs a business? And I'm like, me? And they go, no, but really? And I get, are you kidding?

1:00:16But I will sometimes get that from certain men. So when this guy said that, I felt probably, I've told him everything about the business. He's here to give me advice on share structure. And he's asking me this question. So I said, why did you ask me the question? And I saw him getting really frizzly. He said, what do you mean? What do you mean? And I said, why do you ask a question? Would you ask? And I mentioned another person who's quite a famous person that he also looks after, who's a man. And I said, would you ask them that? And he said, well, yes, I would. And they do. But these other three people don't go to the office.

1:00:49And they run very soon. And I think you're a really chippy woman. All right. And I was, I was so shocked because one thing I have never been accused of in my life is being chippy. And I was like, I'm sorry. And I have, you know, a wife who runs a huge business and And she's not, you know, she will do this. And I was just like, and I thought this is just spiraling out of control. And then, worst thing, I felt myself pricking with tears. No, you didn't. Because it upset me so much. Yeah. And because I think I am probably not touchy, but I'm sensitive because I've bashed a lot of people who sort of say, do you really run a business?

1:01:32And I'm like, you have no idea. But I just don't want to, you have no fucking idea. I just want to say, of course I do. and be cool about it. And I just thought you, I've told my whole business, I've said this thing I've built and then you asked me that question. And so I said, maybe if I explain to you the background of why and perhaps I'm sensitive about that question. And then he kept going on and said, well, so-and-so wouldn't be sensitive, whatever. Wow. So you felt almost more attacked and then it started a bubble. And then you almost felt even, and then you felt even weak because you started to get teary and you were like, oh my God.

1:02:01And then he said, do you need a tissue? Oh, what a fucker. And this is, so I said, no, I don't thank you very much. I said, why don't we mind the movie backwards? Because I think you're getting a little bit aggressive as well. So anyway, then I left and then I sort of wound the movie back. We said, we'll be in touch. And then I spoke to somebody. And I was really, I got back to the office and I was really upset. And then I spoke to somebody who knew them. And they said, ah, they had two female CEOs who are suing them right now. And I thought, that's really interesting. and it took away all my feelings of, you know, I thought that I really hit a nerve.

1:02:41So actually, and also what's interesting is that what would happen is that because you're running it, you're building, you're doing it, it's all of that pressure. You're like Atlas, you're holding up the world. And then when someone takes that away from you, you go, you have no clue. You have no clue. And that makes people emotional. Great answer. What's something you can't let go of? Every morning I get the email from Trinilanda that we send out for Lifecycle and I analyze it like I'm a customer. You know, that's why I still do all my Instagram comments and I do odd things. You've got to really keep in touch with the follower who's the customer and etc.

1:03:16And I'll see something and I'll think, oh, that was meant to land here, but I think it landed here. And I will send an email to three people who are involved in that and say, yeah, I used to send an email and say, what the fuck is this? And now I do, you know, could we, I always try and give an alternative. all right but i'll still do it and i don't think i'll stop doing it but i might do it in a more grown-up way yeah great answer what's something that you'd be embarrassed for people to know you like or want i'm not really embarrassed by anything great so i don't think there is anything that's i don't worry what people think that's a great answer and that's what most people should be like what turns you off you have what turns me on and what What turns me off in this one, did you?

1:04:00What turns you off and what turns you on? Yeah, but first - I'm going to talk about the context of the same thing. Okay. So, well, what turns me on if it was totally remote is when I think of a name or the group bus thinks of a name for a new product and I think, wow, got it. That embodies what it is. We had a name for something the other day and I thought, this is so good. I just, I know where this is going to go. I can imagine everywhere. But what turns me on a lot now is when somebody who's, we do a lot of cross-functional meetings as we grow as a business. So when somebody who's in a department says an idea to me about something for another department, because I think you're thinking cross-functionally, I love that.

1:04:40You're thinking outside of your box. I love it. And then I see the potential of the team growing and growing and growing. I just see, because that is the ultimate. If team members are thinking about their own thing, but they're considering other things, they're thinking broadly, they're thinking of the North Star, they're really in the lane. What I don't love in this context of that is when I'm in a cross functional meeting, which means people from different departments and somebody who's presenting presents to me and keeps trying to get my eye contact and I'm like, present to the room. And a part of that is because they maybe are a people please and they want to make sure they can see I like their idea.

1:05:18And I just want them to have got to a place of more confidence where that doesn't matter anymore. So if I'm in my very grown upness, I will then think, how do I help that person to not feel they have to get my approval to present to the room? How do I give them more self-confidence? And if I'm not feeling, thinking that broadly, I just think, please don't keep looking at me. Can you just look at the room? And so I won't look at them when they look at me, hoping they'll then train themselves to look at the room, but I'm not giving them the context which they need. Love that. Love that. That's great.

1:05:50And also just giving that self-awareness of like hang on a second there's everyone here yeah what do you like most about yourself that i sense people quite well really yeah i have a very good bullshit-o-meter and i just sense when people are really what they appear to be or whether they're not and generally i'm right so what do you think about me we're here today doing doing the podcast aren't we darling I take that as a positive Last one for bonus Your favourite swear word Cunt It's quite simple It's my favourite word of all time She's such a cunt He's such a cunt How cuntish is that So cunty Trini I freaking love you You're the greatest Thank you so much for going to the podcast You're amazing Thanks darling

1:06:49What do you think? I feel like, I think you one day could grow up to be as cool as Trini. Really? Yeah, I honestly was like, if I were Jamie, I would be like, one day I want to grow up to be you. She was amazing. Yeah, she's just everything that I think an entrepreneur. She's so cool and so fiery. She's great. Also, what I want to do is I want to be a little bit honest in this little bit. Go on. We had already recorded this and we'd filmed stuff. We actually lost the footage, didn't we? We didn't lose the footage. The file corrupted. The file. So we're recording this outro. We already recorded it once, but we're re-recording it because we lost the outro and some of the footage got corrupted.

1:07:34And so we had to send it off to America to get the footage back. We had the audio, thank God, but the footage was corrupted. So we had to send it off to America to get the footage back. And that was a bit of a nightmare. Really stressful, but you have all this stuff around you, all these cameras, all these microphones, and yet putting an SD card, the card that we record onto, into a computer to back up the footage or get it onto a computer so we can edit it. Tiny little thing goes wrong there. It corrupts and suddenly your two-hour interviews just disappeared. Heartbreaking. The wonderful JamPod team, led by yourself, we got it back.

1:08:10So it was fantastic. so guys if you're listening which I'm sure you are thank you so much and big thank you to Trini as well because what a great episode I absolutely love that hey listen if you like the episode please subscribe or follow it wherever you're listening to this or watching this and also please share it and also we're on social media so if you want to follow us on social media at Great Company Podcast you can we're on YouTube and everywhere and thank you so much for listening once again thank you we're going to be back next week aren't we we will on wednesday yep for another episode of great company all together with the owls great say it aloud everyone shout it in your car great company jamie's face is so i'm switching off you switched off okay and so should you bye

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