VANESSA WILLIAMS: Being the First Black Miss America Changed My Life - But Came at a Cost

0:00Coming up in this episode of Great Company. You win Miss America, 20 years old. I had death threats as soon as I won. People wanting to kill you. Get out of here. Yeah, yeah. My parents had a box and they would put all the death threats. The FBI had all of the tracking and I had no idea how crazy it was because they didn't want me to freak out. And people would call and harass them like, we're going to kill your daughter. You know, we know where you are. We're going to come after you. From the onset, I was a person of color that had never been a black Miss America before. People said, oh, she's got to be from the ghetto.

0:32I mean, there were so many judgments. So instead of like, oh, I don't want to do this anymore. Let me cry and let me give up. You have to say, guess what? I'm going to prove to you who I am. Hi, I'm Vanessa Williams and I'm in great company. Here's Vanessa Williams. Vanessa Williams. You know, the characters that you play as well. They're all bitches. I would say resilient. Thank you. Thank you. Some photos of me were leaked to a magazine. But anyway, I resigned toward the end of my reign. To start my career with that heavy baggage was a massive burden. If you had a magic wand, would you change it?

1:14Truthfully. I think the reason why I stay so busy is as an actor, it's like, what's the next job? Am I ever going to be employed again? Is that always... It's like in your bones. I love the more. Like, I want more. And that's not greedy. What's next? What's the more? Give me more. More joy, more happiness. What is the more?

1:35Hello, everyone. My name is Jamie Lang, and this is Great Company.

1:43Guys, welcome back to another episode of Great Company. Now, this week, we've got an absolute powerhouse on the show, Vanessa Williams. I sat down with Vanessa at the end of last year, so some of the things that we talk about kind of referenced back there. It was just before I went on paternity leave. I don't know if you know, but I am now a dad. It's exciting and tiring. Now, I was completely blown away by her. She is incredible. We talk about how she got into acting, being the first black woman to win Miss America, and everything that followed after. Okay, her story is inspiring, incredible, everything.

2:20Now, before we get into it, I'm just going to ask you to do one quick thing for me, okay? I'm sorry to ask this, but please follow and subscribe to Great Company. It's totally free and it really helps us keep bringing the guests you love and making the show bigger and better every single week. If you can do that, I'll be forever grateful. All right, enjoy this incredible episode with the one and only Vanessa Williams. Hi, I'm Vanessa Williams and I'm in Great Company.

2:53What's your love language? um i love acts of service okay um you know so cleaning up yeah exactly the toilet is running can you please flick you know figure that out and give me a new flipper on the you know um so i love acts of service i do love gifts um probably best gifts have been cars which get out of here oh yeah i'm a big i'm a big gearhead so i've gotten one two three four cars which i yeah yeah yeah wait Wait, hang on. Let it hold us. So what cars are we talking? Well, my first husband got me, and this was 1991 or so, British Racing Green Mazda Miata. You know, that was like when the Mazda Miata first came out.

3:39And then my push present for… Okay, here we go. Yeah, here we go. I got a Mercedes convertible when I had Sasha from my husband Rick. and then for my 40th birthday, he gave me a Maserati Cambia Corsa. This, honestly, unbelievable. So those were the good ones, yes, for sure.

4:14Question I want to ask you, do you think you're a workaholic? I do like to work Okay So I guess I'm a workaholic I mean I love it I love what I do And I show up on time And I'm professional about it And I don't like it to end if I'm having a good time So I would say yes What is it that you love so much about it? Because I say that because we Before we started I asked what you were doing on the weekend Yes This is your weekend Yes When you're meant to rest Yes, yes, yes. And relax. You had two shows on Saturday. Two shows on Saturday, yes. And then you were recording something yesterday as well.

4:52Yeah, at Abbey Road. At Abbey Road. And then you're in this morning. You've probably done something before this. No, just hair and makeup, just getting it together. But it's incredible, right? It's like that. And a show tonight. And a show tonight. It's that constant hustle. And it's funny, there's this whole idea right in life that we're meant to work really hard. And then at some point, we're meant to go, right, we just slow down. Why not? But actually with you, you seem to be speeding up. You know, I don't know whether it's speeding up or just being consistent. I've just been really lucky to constantly get opportunities that are all different and all intriguing.

5:38and, you know, coming here to London to not only live here, but also sort of make my West End debut, even though I started in 2020, I was supposed to do City of Angels and we were in previews and I was ready to make my debut then and COVID shut us down. So it was a three-month rehearsal period and just learning to live over here and then that got hijacked by COVID and the world. How annoyed were you at the time? I was gutted just because, I mean, in perspective, and I know I was here, you know, there was only maybe 12 cases, you know, when the whole country. So it was in the relative scheme of things.

6:26We were still going to the pubs after the show. We were still, you know, acting. Life was still going, right? Life was still going. And then even when the announcement came and Boris Johnson, he said, you know, it'll be two weeks and we'll be back to normal. So I thought, let me just sit in the apartment and wait two weeks and we'll be back to and then the entire world shut down. So so now, you know, five years later, it's wonderful to be able to be a professional on on the West End and and feel what that's like. And I'm always astounded by the scope of fans that come worldwide, that have come from everywhere, from Japan, Singapore, China, Korea, Brazil, Poland.

7:18In the United States, a lot have come for like girls weekends and stuff. And I always say, like, how do you know me? and it varies from Desperate Housewives, Ugly Betty, The Odyssey, which I did back in 1996. Isn't that mad? Yeah. Well, yeah, that's how they taught us history, you know, when we were in school, Hannah Montana, the movie. And like, okay, how do you, so it's just like crazy, my music. Because that is the biggest moment, Hannah Montana, the movie. That's it. Because without a doubt. I knew I made it. It was all downhill from there. Exactly. Hannah Montana, honestly, it makes you shed a tear.

7:51It's unbelievable. How do you relax? Because if you're constantly working, you've been like this. And looking back at your past and what you've done, it is, I don't know a period in your life when you ever had a rest. And you look, can we just say for everyone who is just listening, you look fantastic in every way. Thank you. So how do you relax? So I know that apparently you're about to have a child. Yes. So congratulations. but that's when I would get my opportunity to rest when I was pregnant because it was like, you know, I can't do it. Uh, because I was always like, what's the next album?

8:31What's the next project? And when I was pregnant, even though I worked up until, you know, probably halfway through the pregnancy, it was an opportunity to kind of just relax. So, um, I mean, there's many, I looked through my recording history and looked through my videos and go, Oh, dreaming. That's when I got pregnant with Jillian. Okay. I was pregnant with Devin when I did work to do. I I thought I had the flu, but no, I was actually pregnant. So I can like clock my pregnancy journey through all of my videos back in the day. Wow. You've done so much in your career, you know, and look, and you're going to do so much more, right?

9:05Which is amazing. What is your proudest moment, do you think? Probably the biggest moment was singing live at the Academy Awards in 1996, singing Colors of the Wind that I had, you know, was on the airwaves in 1995 for Pocahontas for a Disney film. Wow. And the song winning, my parents being there in the audience, my dad was, I think, sitting next to Tom Cruise or something. So it was like, the family was in the audience, I was wearing a gorgeous Versace gown, sang, you know, live and being acknowledged by, you know, Alan Menken and and Stephen Schwartz, um, for winning. Unfortunately, as the singer, you don't get the Academy Award, but it was still, the acknowledgement was amazing and you're doing it live and that's, it was amazing.

9:58It was amazing. So, I mean, I've done, I've done the, the Superbowl, you know, which was, you've done the Superbowl. Yeah, I did. I did the 1996. That was a good year. 1996 for me was a good year. Wait a minute, hang on a second. You did the Super Bowl. Yeah, I did. I did the national anthem. And it was Dallas Cowboys against the Pittsburgh Steelers. Cowboys won. But yeah, and Diana Ross was the headliner that year. And, you know, it's so big that it's like, everyone's like, are you afraid? Are you afraid? You're on the 50 in the middle of a field so far back. The world is watching you. You're just seeing a sea of color.

10:40and you're just so far removed of reality and like, get ready. Cause then the jets are going to go and there's fireworks and stuff. So you're just like, make sure I can hear the beginning of, you know, the tune so I can, you know, sing. What is your nerves doing? Come on. It's, it's, it's, it's so big that you kind of like take yourself out of your body. It's like a disassociation. Totally. Totally. Do you ever get insecure or nervous or anything? Or do you just sort of just, you fight through those things and just? For sure. I think, you know, being a woman of 62 and theater is very forgiving.

11:23You can tape it up, wig it up, you know, corset it up, you know, but when you're in front of the lens, there's really no hiding. and I can see why so many people get a lot of work done because they're afraid of what aging will look like in front of the lens because it doesn't, you know, there are filters that you can throw on to soften and all that stuff, which you know. But there is a time where you're going to age and look your age. So you've got to say, oh, I'm not the ingenue anymore. I'm going to play the aunt, the mother, the grandmother, the strong diplomat, whatever, and you have to embrace that transition.

12:05That's hard, though. It's hard. That's a hard thing to do. You are, you're clearly beautiful. You truly are. And youth is this thing that we try and cling on to for some reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we'll go to extreme ends to try and keep it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I unfortunately think it's, for some reason, harder for women than it is for men. Yeah, yeah. Men seem to be able to embrace it more than women. Although there have been a couple recently. Don't worry. You'll see me pick my kid up from school. On TikTok, it's like, why did he do that to his eyes? Why? You know, so that's the panic.

12:44But how do you counter it? Well, I do all the things. I mean, I thank God have not had to have a facelift, but I've done the recent thing that I did here. I did a P5 thing, which is Pico, Dr. Satch Mahone, but it's a Pico laser that feels like pinpricks. Then he takes your blood. Spins it. Spins it with the trout sperm, the polynucleotides. The salmon sperm. Is it trout? Has it changed? This is Italian trout. Okay, this is Italian trout. And spins it and then re-injects it into your face and neck and stuff. I don't know whether, I've done three. I'm running there now. Honestly, let me drink that.

13:25I've done three. Every three months I've done three. And that's here. So I'll do like, what's the new thing? Should I do it? Is it non-invasive? And what will the results be? Being on stage performing, do you think that's where you're happiest? Depends on the audience. True. What is it about? A Monday night one is a bit slow. Monday nights are our best. It's good. Monday nights, because we're one of the few shows that are open on Monday nights. So we get like the real theater enthusiasts. So we get killer audiences on Monday nights. And I do have this epic entrance, which you know, which I come up from the floor with my glasses on.

14:05And it looks like I'm rising in a lift. And then it's a ding. And you realize that, you know, the doors are imaginarily opening and thunderous applause. So sometimes when I. Doesn't go wild. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then sometimes when they don't, I just look and look, and then they go, oh, it's okay to applaud. Sometimes they go like, I didn't think there was going to happen. I said, believe me, I will wait. I will wait. What does she mean? Wait until that comes. You know that. I don't care. It's 10 minutes. I'm still here waiting. Exactly. Wow, because it must be hard to perform when the audience has low energy, right?

14:40It's hard to. Well, the difference between, you know, your London audiences, They're very respectful. They've seen tons of stuff. And sometimes, like on a Wednesday matinee, the coach buses will come in, and they're lovely silver-haired people that are used to seeing a beautiful show with nice costumes. And this is a lot of attitude. It's New York. It's, you know, Miranda Priestly is not nice to many people. So there's a lot of attitude in your face. So they're very polite, but they're not very vocal. Whereas you've got, like, the Americans are coming in. and yeah, they're vocal and they're laughing and they get all the inside jokes and stuff.

15:20So I can always tell when there's more Americans in the house than there are for, you know, the proper - I went to a wedding once in America with my friend. And, you know, at the end, they actually sadly divorced pretty soon after. But when they got married, said, can you please kiss the bride? And they did this full on like make-out session up there. All the Brits, all the Brits were like this. And all the Americans are like, let's go! It's just such a divide that you can see all of us. Oh God, this is a bit awkward. It's just a totally different audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You win Miss America and you're 20...

16:031983. 1983, 20 years old. Junior at uni and I was supposed to come here to London for my junior year abroad. So I already had my deposit. it. My roommate was ready to come because I'd never been a Black Miss America. I had done the pageant on a lark because I was freshman year at uni for musical theater. You just, you can't perform. So it's your core year. So you're learning acting and piano and dance and stagecraft and all kinds of stuff. Sophomore year, you're allowed to start auditioning for things. And I was in everything. And locally at Syracuse, which is upstate New York, it's about, I don't know, four and a half hours north of New York City.

16:49So locally, there was a local pageant that feeds into the Miss America pageant. And Miss America pageant is the one pageant that has talent. So, you know, it's not like USA, Universe, World. That's all looks. And Miss America is like a scholarship pageant. So you have a seven-minute interview. Then you, you know, do your whatever your talent is on stage. What was your talent? I sang. So sophomore year, I started doing all the shows, and the local pageant kind of scouts their talent, you know, like the opera singers or whatever. So I'd gotten like, do you want to do the pageant? I was like, no, I don't do that.

17:29And I was supposed to do Cyrano de Bergerac, and I had a small part in it, but that got canceled. And that was at Syracuse Stage, which is a repertory theater, and that would have gotten equity points to get my equity card. because on Broadway, you can't work unless you're an equity member. Yes. Here you can, which is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. But I am equity here, by the way. Let's go. On both. Just to let everyone know. I pay my dues. Just to let everyone know that. Okay. So I said, you know, let me, I called my mom. I said, you know, I've got April free. Do you think I should do this pageant? And she's like, is there scholarship money?

18:06Because I'd gotten scholarships the previous years. And I said, yeah, I said, do it. So my parents didn't even come to the pageant. My friend played, one of my good friends played piano. I got like a bathing suit down at our local Sibley's department store and won. So then I was on my way to the States. That was in April, on my way to the States in July. And my friend played the same song, same piano, whatever. And I won that. So all of a sudden from April to September, I had now was in a national contest. And I, again, still thought I was coming to London and I won the whole thing. So at 20 years old, like now what am I doing to do?

18:46And my world completely changed. What happened? Because that is, there's something about that in life, right? Which is where sometimes when we really want something, when we want something more than anything, it almost stops us from getting it, right? God, the world, I don't know. Yeah, no, no, you want it too much. But when sometimes when we don't really want something, it happens. You and Miss America. And is it fate? Or like, how did I get here? And it took me a long time to kind of realize like, hey, that was part of my history. Stop trying to, you know, um use it as a because i remember talking to my acting teacher and i was like i just want to be taken seriously you know everyone sees me as a beauty queen he said that was your door that's that's what happened in your life and that was your door that led you to all this other opportunity do you know what's amazing about that is i i say this so much on this podcast so listeners will be bored i did a reality show right and you know loads of people who did the reality show with me want to deny it they don't want it it's not yeah i know so much and again you know there are so many people i admire you were one of them who you don't deny your roots that's the door that open up to everything and you work hard once you're through that door but that is your roots why deny the the opportunity that you had at that point to do something accept it what was the again explain the backlash that you get from being the first Black Miss America?

20:18Oh, tons of, I mean, there's a myriad of, I mean, I was pro-choice, pro-ERA, Equal Rights Amendment. I mean, I was, so, you know, the Miss America franchise was one that was started as a swimsuit contest in Atlantic City as a seaside town. I mean, What is it like? Not like Plymouth, but like a seaside town with a boardwalk. And this was like their annual swimsuit competition. We're talking way back in the day. And it turned into a scholarship program for women for college and career and all that stuff. So you win it. You then you get the title and then you get a scholarship to wherever you want to go to.

21:02Yeah. You basically get the money and then you've got a year of singing or whatever. Or going around and saying, I'm Miss America. I'm Miss America. You know, and, you know, I, by first, I met Ronald Reagan. President Reagan called me and said it was a great thing for our country the night I won. And then I was at a White House dinner shortly after that. I was like, he called you? I met like seven presidents. Yeah, yeah, I've met seven presidents in my lifetime. I've got photos of them all. Wait, Ronald Reagan phoned you? Yeah, yeah. And you went, hi, Mr. President. But yeah, my traveling companion, my chaperone said, we've got somebody on the phone for you.

21:45And I was like, oh my God. And that was, yeah. So it was in the grand scheme of things, when you think about history, and my parents were married in 1960 and had me in 1963. From their perspective, I mean, John F. Kennedy just got shot. MLK gets shot. Shortly after that, my brother's born in 1967. This was the height of the equal rights movement. So the Voting Act is established. So as a black couple having kids in the 60s, you're wondering, what is the, what is my life going to be? What can I, what is the security of my life going to be like raising kids? Which is kind of similar, like what's going on now.

22:38Like the world is, people are getting assassinated. Oh my God. It's scary. It's very scary. And then your daughter suddenly has this title and is up there. Yeah. It's scary. And you're getting this backlash. It's a lot of fear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So 20 years later, all of the, I guess, progress is an example of what I've been able to do by breaking this barrier. But then again, you get the backlash of people wanting to kill you. We had my parents. Get out of here. Yeah, yeah. My parents had a box and they would put all the death threats. The FBI had all of the tracking. Even when I would do appearances, they'd be like, be careful when you go to Chicago or be careful.

23:18and I had no idea how crazy it was because they didn't want me to freak out. But yeah, I had death threats as soon as I was one, as soon as I won at 20 years old. You're 20 years old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know how you deal with that. Yeah. Well, luckily they kept a lot from me because I think I would have been more terrified. I mean, I wasn't terrified, but I would have been terrified had I known. Was there any moments where you were scared? I got an inkling when I came home from my hometown. We had like a hometown parade. And there were sharpshooters on top of one of our buildings. And I live in a tiny town.

23:57And I was like, wow, that's unusual. and one time when I was doing an appearance in Alabama and I was supposed to be on the back of a convertible with the convertible seat down and before we started, they said, you know what, we're going to put the roof up. And again, I thought, okay, that's a little unusual. One time I was in a motel and they said, don't leave your room unless you talk to my chaperone, which is the room next door. So those were just like just hints of that sense that they didn't really want to tell me everything, but that there was danger. And I wrote a book with my mom about this.

24:45I know. And she talks about like, you know, and my mom is so tough, but she talks about people threatening calling our home phone because back then you had a phone book. We're talking way back in the day, but there was a phone book and our phone was listed because we were listed. And people would call and harass them like, we're going to kill your daughter. You know, we know where you are. We're going to come after you. The police picked up a guy that was mad at my mom because she wouldn't let, I don't know what the deal was, but he was threatening to kill her and the cops got him. You know, so it's crazy.

25:19So it wasn't just she won a beauty pageant. It was nuts. Just because you want to be, because you were Miss America and the color of your skin. Just how? But, you know, look at the world today. I know. And look at the judgment and look at the... But it's so upsetting that that can happen. I know. And as a parent, I know you're like, I want the world to be a wonderful place and a safe place. You know, if my baby had any sort of threat or, you know, first, if my baby had done something wrong, right? Like, you know, growing up, okay, maybe I could still be protective, right? But I get it. But just because of the way they looked, I don't, as a parent, I don't know how your mother, I would have been up on a building as a sharpshooter myself, I think.

26:09Yeah, it was a very stressful year. Very proud, but very stressful. So, and we all lived through it. And again, it's, you know, I always think, oh, that's in the past. And then I look at the racism and the judgment and the triggers that everybody has now. And it's like, it's like this weird cycle. Did we make any progress at all? Can't we just accept the myriad of cultures and backgrounds that we all live? Why do we care? And also, I mean, you know, I look at my history and I had a wonderful opportunity to do that show called Who Do You Think You Are? Have you? Yeah. So I did it. And my story could not be any more American than what I found out then.

27:05Really? So it's not like, oh, go back to Africa. I was like, honey, I've been here. I can trace back to, you know, 1824 when my great-great-great-grandfather was here. One of my great-great-grandfathers served as one of the first black troops in the Civil War. My other great-great-grandfather was born a slave but was educated and was the first representative of color in Tennessee. So the tradition and the history lives so deep inside me. And anyone who tries to eradicate that or make you feel differently, right? But that's where we are now. You know, being a real American, take us back to make American great again.

27:51I heard that your father was one of the most incredible people. He was. And showed you what a father and a husband and a man should be like. And in psychology, they always say, supposedly if your father loves you, you know how to be loved yourself. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you must have had that in abundance. Absolutely. And also another tip for a new parent, read to them every night. Doesn't matter if they're infants, hold them in your hand and read to them. My dad read to me all the way up until I was probably 12, like would come in at nighttime. And we started with, you know, obviously nursery rhymes and fairy tales.

28:39And we would discuss psycho-cybernetics and I'm okay, you're okay. Back in the day, because it was an opportunity for us to kind of like talk about behavior and kind of unload, you know, and it was an amazing, amazing relationship. And he did me and my brother. He was like story time. And that was his contribution. He would do that with my kids, too. He did it every night with you, pretty much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he would start us. That's how he started to learn to read. And there was one. It was called Let Papa Sleep. And I remember that was like our initial book time. And that's how we would learn how to read.

29:20He would show it to us and reading at a young age. Do you miss him? I do. I do. I miss my mom too, who just died recently here in London, which was unexpected. Respected, but, you know, she came to see me doing what I love and what she knew I could do well. And opening on, you know, here in the West End was my dream. And she saw that on opening night. And, of course, she went over to Elton during the after party and said, you know, Vanessa needs another song in Act Two. You know, and, you know, everyone's like, oh, my God, she's not the Elton John. She didn't care. That's what she wanted him to know.

30:00She needs a new song in Act Two. And it'll probably happen. And if this show continues, I'm sure I'll get my new song and act two. Thanks to Helen Williams, my mom. It's like, you know, I have, I don't know why. I've spoken to this with other people. But for some reason, I've got to an age now where I suddenly realized that life is temporary. And it's like, you know, especially with your parents, you just kind of think they're going to be there forever. Yeah. In a way. And then suddenly they're not. And it's, yeah, I don't know. Life doesn't really prepare you for that for some reason. So how has the last year been without your mum?

30:41I've been thankful that I've been able to have eight shows a week to keep me grounded and stable and focused. And I've also taken the opportunity to, you know, when I'm not there and people that have come to see me and I've been away, it's because I've had to go home to take care of, you know, selling her estate, burying her. We just buried her remains in end of September. You know, there's a lot of stuff that you have to do in terms of the mechanics of death, getting, you know, death certificates, going through life insurance, all that stuff. And thank God I have my brother that has helped me.

31:22You know, we've been a duo, just kind of tackling all of the business of death together. But also I've had an opportunity to grieve. And luckily in the show, I literally have to cry every night. And that's been kind of a trigger like, oh, I can let it go tonight. Really? So you can let that go within your art? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And even when she was, you know, at the London Clinic and going through all the tests and it took 25 days to figure out what was going on until she passed. How did she die? Acute liver failure. And we don't know what triggered it. And, you know, we had the best liver specialist, Dr.

32:03Patrick Kennedy, who I love. So we, you know, we're trying to figure out how it happened. She was 85, so she could not have gotten Amy. She would, if she got in a liver transplant, that would have helped. But again, at 85, he said, there's no way we can actually get her on a list. And, you know, even if she survived the operation, who knows, you know, whether she could survive it. So it was, and she wasn't, I hadn't seen her. So she apparently wasn't feeling well a couple of weeks prior. So we didn't know how bad it was. And my mother was so strong that, you know, nothing hurt her, nothing. Her pain tolerance was so high.

32:46And even when her blood work was crazy, she had no real symptoms. So, yeah, it was a shock, but... A resilient woman. Resilient. Even Professor Kennedy said, oh, Helen, you're a tough one, Helen. You're a tough one. But I can sense that resilience in you. I can, and, you know, the characters that you play as well, they... They're all bitches. I know. I would say resilient. Thank you. Thank you. But you do, you can, you, you manage to find within your character that sort of, that real strength and that resilience. And yes, you can lean into that place of being. Yes. But I imagine your, your mom must have been one of those people who would have asked the question, the difficult questions, if need to be.

33:39And I imagine you're like that as well. Oh, yeah. I mean, my mom in, in her family, they called her the general, because if there was anything going on, if she flew in to take care of situations that matters. watch out because Helen's coming in. No way. So she would. So she was, and she's, she was only five feet. So she was like a terror. So people were definitely afraid of her. So she was a role model, but also an example of like, she's getting it done. So I think it's my, my natural tendencies is not to confront. I'm like, okay, if it's not going to happen, I'll just walk away and it wasn't meant to be.

34:17But my mother had her list of enemies. She was like a little like an Al Capone. She was like, if there was a mafia, she'd be the dog. She's the boss. Exactly. She's the godfather. Yeah. And we actually found out in, we did Anne's Gesture DNA and she's like 15 % Italian. I go, there you have it that's why and i go there you go mom she's like i don't know how i said well that completely makes sense family comes first and don't with the family i love that yeah

34:58one of the things that i that i read about and you you spoke about how when you were much younger you um sort of realized in later life that you were sexually abused and when you spoke to all your girlfriends about it yeah they all said that happened to me yeah which is which is crazy crazy yeah yeah yeah yeah and i you know and i spoke to my mom um i was talking about then she said the same thing oh yeah that had that happened to me and my mom always said it casually i said i said hang on a second she said yeah yeah yeah that that happened to me yeah and it that sort of flippant attitude to going yeah yeah that that but that shouldn't be happening and that shouldn't happen.

35:39And what you said after that, as you said, it made you almost sexually aware at a young age, which was also a problem. And it's also the seventies, you know, the eighties, uh, back in the day, which it was much, I mean, there's no, there's no phones, you know, of course there's phones, but there's no cell phones. There's no tracking. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, back in the day, it was like, you know, studio 54. That was, I mean, I didn't, I didn't go. I tried to get in once they didn't pick me. Don't worry, I tried to get onto Raya, the dating app, and they didn't pick me once. No way! Similar, right?

36:17It's very similar. Yeah, but, you know, so it was a different time. But is that an excuse? No, exactly. It is not an excuse, but it also is kind of sad when you realize that it's happened to so many, many people. Yeah, it was heartbreaking. it is hard and i think that i don't know i just as a parent yeah i mean i didn't even mention it until you know my father had passed away by the time i we wrote the book together and my mother said your father could not have handled it if you'd yeah yeah because as a as a father you want to be a protector you know and even that knowledge i remember when it happened getting off the plane because it was happening in california i was with a friend we had a you know a trip to a trip with their family friends to California.

37:06So I came back and my uncle had just died. And I came, I remember your parents could actually meet you on the jetway. I remember coming up and my dad was just ashen, like just pale. And I was, I knew that something had gone wrong and they said that it is his younger brother had died. And so it wasn't even like I had a moment to say this happened and I feel uncomfortable. That was like the reality. I was like, okay, I'm not even going of bring that up. So that's kind of what my reality was. And I just buried it. You know? Yeah. I think we, we've, we've learned in life to, to kind of bury things quite well.

37:43That's the way that we do. Okay. Brush under the cup and just keep moving forward. And also your parents, you really don't want to tell, I mean, unless you've got a really extraordinarily close relationship, it's hard to talk to your parents about anything that's unusual or, you know, even if, you know, smoking weed, I just found out my, I was on a FaceTime with my two daughters. I'm like, yeah, I remember that time we got high. We went to, you know, this is the two of them talking together. We got high and we painted, you know, went to the ceramic studios and colored me mine and painted some stuff.

38:13And I'm like, when was this? And how did it not, you know, how did you not share this with me? But anyway, you know, it's hard. But do they say, mama, you ever smoke weed? Oh, they know, but I was very, I was very, whenever, I always think that I believe in teachable moments. So when they're in high school, if they ever ask me a question, I will completely be honest. Yeah, absolutely. I remember my daughter asked like, um, we are watching the news and it was about like, you know, if the weed you smoked, you think was, you know, good. Well, right now there it's called hydroponic and your kids are smoking different kinds of weed and whatever.

38:52And marijuana, they would say on TV. And my eldest daughter said, mom, did you ever smoke? I go, yeah and then instead of like my brain would be like how did it feel she's like what did your friends think of you i was like what we were all doing it yeah we were all doing it exactly so it's it's curious to to you know kind of jump in their head and see what their perspectives are

39:23who were your role models growing up because for you right you are a role model for so many people being a black woman who have done all the things that you have done but growing up who did you look at um i love lena horn um lena horn was uh one of those beautiful amazing talented groundbreakers that she was in television, recording, Broadway, an activist. And I got a chance to meet her. What was it like meeting her? I burst into tears. Talk about tears. I was in my 20s like, ah! I burst into it just because she was legendary. And she knocked down all those walls that I admired. So she was amazing.

40:18But, you know, Diane Carroll, again, Diane Carroll worked with me as she played my mom in a movie called The Courage to Love. And she was like the first black woman to have a TV show on broadcast TV and again did Broadway and recording and stuff. So these were all the women that had done everything that I wanted to do, the scope of work, and just broke barriers. And just like saying, you're on television, you're playing, she played a nurse called Julia, and she was telling me this, she wanted to make sure that her hair looked good because nobody had done black hair before. So she brought her hairdresser to do her hair on the show.

41:03That one step integrated the union. and because because she insisted on that from then on the the hair and makeup union was integrated because of that one step so those are the little things that you don't realize make a tremendous difference but these open the doors for other people your kids must um they must be chatting they don't care my kids are like they they will get and i reckon they chat to other kids and they go other kids are going my mom's great and they go come on my mom my mom is pretty great but you are but truth you're not even i'm not even um part of your family i feel proud no i do because they must look at you and just think you know yes your mom and yeah sure and there's there's been ups and downs and that's right like every life think about the pressure though the pressure is that so the pressure is like oh i want to be a singer but my mom's done that uh i i want to buy how i want to buy a house when my mom bought a house when she was in her 30s So it's like, there's so much pressure and that's, I don't feel sorry for them because I've got two daughters that are like, they're making their own music and they're doing it and they ask for the advice and they've embraced it, which has been great.

42:19My son is tremendously proud of me as well. But the judgment of people like, oh, you're a Nepo baby. But, you know, you've got everything handed to you. Oh, of course you want to be a recording artist because your mom was. But if you've got the skill set and the talent and the drive, why not? Do you know what? Also, you've done it. I mean, from 11 Grammy nominations to doing West End to doing everything. You've done it all right. But you also know how hard it is. as a as a parent you probably want to say look you can go down this route but it is hard but you also like you said the beginning you want them to go and do anything they can but how do you advise your kids around that space um well luckily i've brought them everywhere and i know as a parent you're going to drag your kids everywhere because it's why not it's a learning experience and sometimes it's better to be in the recording studio backstage in a trailer on on set because they learn how hard you work.

43:19So they'll learn from example. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I've also, they also understand the sacrifices like, I'm not going to do this project because I want to be home with you. I don't want to travel and be away that long because I want to be home with you. And that's important. So they see the sacrifices that I've made throughout my career to be a mom, you know, to be able to pick them up from the school and be at their concerts and do their makeup for their dance recitals, all that stuff. I can tick off those boxes and say, yeah, I was there, you know. So is there ever a balance? No.

43:52Do you feel guilty? Yes. You will always feel guilty. You'll always feel guilty. That's just part of being a parent. Really? Do we always feel guilty? I can't deal with that. Or do you feel guilty now? But just drag them along because everything is a learning experience. for instance when my daughter my Jillian who's lion babe who broke over here about 10 years ago and with her music she graduated from uni at the new school and I had a gig in Japan and she said oh I want to go to Japan I said you want to go learn the set and you can you can perform with me and she learned everything that was supposed to sing and she tried she ended up being on the road with me for about a year and a half until she started working on her own music and then Now she's a big dance star.

44:39We did Mighty Hoopla together in June. Which is great. That's amazing to be able to do. You know, because you wrote your book with your mom. And the book was called You Have No Idea. And so you did that with your mom, but then also you get to do things with your daughters. Yeah. That's unique and special. It is. It is. You know, I'm happy that she still thinks I'm cool enough to like join in on a track with her, which is great. Right. And, you know, it's it's you see people you see your kids with similar skill sets. Like if your father was a mason and you've been on the job with him all the time and you know the craft, then it's not it's not a wonder that you can be a skilled mason because you grew up watching the art artistry of of that particular craft.

45:27So they've seen me in the recording studio. They've seen me live. They know what they need when they're on stage or whatever. So when they said, you know, I want to try singing, I want to try acting, I didn't say get a real job. But okay, let's make sure you got the training. Let's do this and get the proper team so you can kind of shine. With Miss America, you had your title revoked. No, I resigned. My mistake. No, no, but they threatened to revoke it. I resigned. Some photos of me were leaked to a magazine, which they were going to put out in September. I got a tip from a reporter saying, I heard that you're going to be on the cover of this magazine.

46:17And would you like to make a comment? And I said, I don't know what you're talking about. I called my lawyer immediately. I said, I don't know what's going on, but something's going down. Investigated and found out this particular photographer that I had worked with as a makeup artist slash he ran a local and a local meaning my hometown, a local model registry, which should have been the first clue because it wasn't a model agency. Anyway, shady, trusting. um i had done some photos with him that there was no release never supposed to be seen with anybody anyway he had been working and trying to sell these photos as soon as i became famous behind the scenes for as soon as i became famous ended up selling to this magazine um they wanted uh so the pageant said you know you were gonna you're gonna lose your title um in a particular amount of time.

47:12And I, at that point said, you know, people, and then people were saying, fight for the title. You've done everything. You, you've been fine, Miss America, blah, blah, blah. And again, I'm working on it. I've got a documentary coming out on this. So again, I hate to bastardize and make this tiny. No, I can't wait for this documentary. But anyway, I resigned. So yes, I resigned toward the end of my reign. And so it was not only was I labeled as a beauty queen, which negated talent and intellect, but a scandalized beauty queen. So to start my career, which I wanted to be on Broadway, with that heavy baggage was a massive burden.

47:57And it took me - More than a massive burden. Yeah, it took me 10 years to get on Broadway to be. And through that, I became a recording artist and did television and films. And but battled my way through. I mean, I should have named the book. Oh, I didn't know she could do that. Because it was always like, oh, I don't know she could do that. And it was like constantly breaking down assumptions and judgment, which makes you tough, makes you hard. And it's taken a while for me to kind of soften to be back to who I was before I became famous. Because how is that legal? I mean, I'm sure you're going to go into this in the documentary, but how is it legal that someone can take, you know, photos of you?

48:46It wasn't legal. I had a lawsuit and my parents were paying for it and I had a high-powered lawyer. And, of course, that whole magazine had their high-powered lawyer team. And after a while, I was like, you know what? I want to get on with my life. And they just didn't care? They don't care. Are you kidding me? We're talking 1984. Yeah, but this poor young woman. It doesn't matter. Look at all of these struggles. I mean, how many documentaries have you seen in that time frame where it's David versus Goliath? They don't care. You know, because they unlimited funds. And my parents, again, after they, the principle of it, they wanted me to fight, which I completely understand.

49:32But then after a while, I felt like I don't want to do this to you guys. I want to get on with my life. And that's what I chose. I'm going to resign. Wow. Let's forget the lawsuit and let's move on. Mentally, what happens during that period? Um, I was, uh, thank God I had a great team, but my, my parents and, and, uh, loving friends that, um, believed in me obviously and believed in my future. And I just had to kind of like, you have no idea who you think you, you know. And so it was like, I'm going to prove it to you. And it was trying to be respected and taken seriously and to show my intelligence.

50:22But also, I want to have a normal life. And I threw myself into, you know, I ended up, my publicist who came in to help me with the crisis ended up being my boyfriend, who ended up being my manager, who I ended up marrying and having three kids with. So I kind of threw myself into this is going to be normal and I'm going to control my personal life. So I had that as the escape from the reality. But he was also very realistic because he was also attached to my career. So he would be like, you know what? Things aren't going to be this easy for you. So he was the wise sage, but also not as optimistic as I was.

51:01So I was like, I'm going to do it. And he's like, got to be realistic. So I guess it was a good balance because that always fueled my fire when people said, no, watch me. I love that. Did you write about that in your book with your mom? Did your mom speak about that time at all? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The book is like point counterpoint. It's like, this is what I thought was happening. What a great way. Let me tell you what was really happening. And my mother was so direct. And people that know her, because this is also an audiobook. The general. Yeah. But people that know her like, oh, that's Helen.

51:37That's Helen. Keeping it real. Always keeping it real. And I was like, I can make this happen. You know, in time, the dust will settle and people will see who I really am. And I love that. Go get that attitude. Yeah. Constantly. So is it naivete? Is it trusting in fate? Is it like, I don't know, but I knew that. um and every genre that i've put myself into whether it was recording well you're a beauty queen how you're or you're too broadway your voice so end up having success in there then theater well now you're a recording artist you're not really from theater then opening the doors there so there was always kind of a a prove it i get it you're always batting down those doors and you always have to prove something always have to prove something and then sometimes and also in the back of your mind or in your own mind, you go, you know, you have the talent, you know, you have this and that.

52:33And what I have to prove it, fine. I'm happy to, I'll prove it to all these people. It's exhausting. It is exhausting. Then the big question, even though that is your, that is your past, that's where you've begun. If you had a magic wand, would you change it? Truthfully? Truthfully? I mean, if I could have my kids, probably. I would. yes it's made me the person that I am but of course it's not even taking the easier road out but I would be curious to see what my I don't want to say success because I am so happy that I see myself as successful but I would be curious to see what the root would be you know what the path would be um the miss america organization apologized to you um are you a forgiving person

53:33um i guess i would have to say yes because i don't like to get caught up in negativity yeah so it's almost like that's over good for you i've already moved on um my mother on the other hand not so much with her list i wish i had met your mom and that what what happened was um I knew the president of the Miss America organization at that point, Sam Haskell. And he reached out to me and took me to lunch and said, listen, we would like to invite you back to the pageant. And I was like, why? Why would you want to do that? And you can show all the things that you've achieved over the years. And of course, it was for a ratings issue, too, for him as the president.

54:27So I talked to my mom, and she's like, why would you want to do that after all they've done to you and us? The only way you should go back is if you get an apology. So I was like, well, this is what my mom says, and that's kind of how it happened. And it was basically for my mom. And she got the apology. She gets what she wants. She cares what she wants.

54:57You've had three marriages. Yes. My father's had three marriages as well. Okay. Uh-oh. I'm going to follow in suit. But what do you like in love? I love a sense of adventure and optimism. um a sense of security i mean since my i think the reason why i stay so busy is as an actor is like what's the next job am i ever going to be employed again and that's just does that always it's still it's like in your bones like oh my god i'm never going to work again what's what's successful and the achievements that you have yeah and the accolades and everything that yeah you're always like what's next that is not even though it's still relevant it's not because relevance who cares you can always but it's like what's what's the next project and you know so i i i maybe that's something in your bones that you know comes from where do you think that comes from auditioning days let's try and work that because i okay i like what's what's next kidding me every moment every moment i don't know i post a social media post well that's it i'm done but what's so refreshing for so many people that will you know within this industry just in life in general especially being someone who's self-employed we always think the same thing we think okay that's it that's the last one yeah yeah yeah yeah and that's what keeps us driving forward though because if we were complacent we wouldn't be doing what we're doing right so it's important to have that but how do we conquer that i i i always say that you know the thing that if you um had a wish from a genie right and i sort of try i say these these thanks every single night but one of the things i thank was i always say i just i thankful that i can one day be content because that is are we ever are we i'm gonna die not being content but i love the more i love like i want more and that doesn't that's not greedy that's not being selfish what's next what's the more.

57:02Give me more, more of whatever, more, more joy, more happiness. What is the more? So I don't think it's a negative thing. It's also being curious about life and like, who are the new people that are going to come in into my life? And what is this next adventure going to be? So, um, you know, we just had a cast change. Yeah. Yeah. So it's relationships. It's, It's, you know, travel. It's new experiences. And that always makes you, you know, want to be educated and, you know, never stop learning. What do you still want to achieve? If you could say right now, this is on my checklist. This is what I want to get.

57:43What is it? So I just kind of jumped into producing theater. So that's great to be a part of a financial team that hopefully you'll recoup. But to actually take an idea and workshop it and turn it into a musical and have it be a success, I would love to be part of that team to artistically have stuff to say. You know, right now starring in Devil Wears Prada, yes, I'm starring in it. Yes, I can have say over what I wear and how I want to be seen, but I don't have say about the entire scope. And like, this would be a great idea if you did this or this would really help, you know, change it or elevate it or whatever.

58:28Because you must have your thoughts and your opinions and you're just like, this would make it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but again, I'm happy to be starring at the Dominion. I, you know, and I, I love what I do, eight shows a week, but having, be able to be a create, create from idea to opening night would be something that I have never done and I'd love to do. Thank you for being you and being here. And this was, yeah, I knew this was going to be incredible in every way. I'm such a big fan and this has been truly amazing. Really Vanessa, thank you honestly so much. Thank you. We like to end the podcast with, it's quite a lot, but eight questions.

59:11So we're going to start again now. Settle in. We can be quick by any way you want. You ready for this? Sure, sure. What's a saying or phrase that makes you smile or cheers you up? Oh, hi, mumsy. That's my three-year-old calls me mumsy. So hi, mumsy. Best compliment anyone's ever given you? you've done a great job with your kids. Great. Or your kids are so polite. That's when I would travel with them on planes, the stewardesses would always say, Oh God, your kids are so polite. Wow. Yeah. I saw a clip from a guy who, very successful guy. And he was asked, what's his biggest achievement? And he paused and he said, I've been called dad.

59:58Amazing. Makes me just so excited for it all. What scares you most about yourself? What scares me most about myself?

1:00:13That I say yes too much. Good answer. Last time you cried? Saturday night at the evening show. I have to cry every second act. So it's guaranteed. There'll be tears. Go ahead and play on Monday night. What's something you can't let go of? Come on. My love of travel. what's your guilty pleasure i would have to say i love reality shows and right now maths uk isn't it good this is the julia ruth was on the wrap-up show yesterday like you're showing your head after yeah anyway all in it what turns you off rudeness what turns you on children's laughter what do you like most about yourself resilience you win and final one your favorite lyric you've ever sung oh let's see these are the sweetest days we'll know Vanessa Williams it's been an honor thank you so much for going on great company thank you you're amazing that was incredible Thank you so much.

1:01:33Wow. I mean, what an episode. What an episode. I mean, so many things to take from that. The fact of how resilient she is. I mean, it really makes you inspired to think of this woman, Vanessa Williams, when she was young, right? She was the first black woman to win Miss America, an incredible achievement. But she received death threats, racial abuse, and her parents tried to keep it away from her. Just put yourself into that mind of that young woman at that time. And it kind of made me think that sometimes we can be in a moment that we feel is overwhelming, that we're never going to see the way out.

1:02:10And actually, if we lift our head up and we just realize there is always a horizon that we can get to it. And someone like Vanessa Williams shows that, that just be resilient in those moments. Incredible episode. Vanessa, if you're listening, thank you so much for coming on. So guys, I really hope you enjoyed that. Let us know what you think in the comments. Let us know if you liked the episode, who you want to see next. And remember to like and subscribe. And we're going to see you next week for another episode of Great Company.