From White House to Wall Street: David Rubenstein

26:07And I was willing to do it because I wasn't the deal person. Now, our process at our firm, maybe not unlike yours, is we had investment committees, and I sat on all the investment committees, but I wasn't driving the process. I was basically saying, okay, I got it. It's okay with me. As you probably know, when you get to an investment committee, if you're not driving the investment process, you're probably going to be seen as a stick in the mud if you're trying to kill the deal. You rarely kill deals in investment committees. It happens. But generally, when you get to an investment committee, by then, you know, a lot of people have seen it, and it's kind of homogenized to the point where it's going to get approved.

26:42So I sat on the committees, but nobody would say I was the investor. And today there's, what,$440 billion under management? Is that right? And at the time, how big was Fund One that you raised? Well, when we started, we didn't have any money. We raised$5 million to start from four investors, and that gave us the ability to go raise money deal by deal. Our first fund, about three years after we started, was$100 million. That's a pretty big jump from$500 to$100. Well, it was not as big a jump. The bigger jump was our first fund was$100. We then, with that fund, we co-invested$600. So I went out to say for our second fund, well, we've co-invested$600.

27:23We had$100, so it's$700, so let's go to$1 billion. So I went from$100 million to$1 billion. And at what point did you feel like, okay, I'm actually a good fundraiser? Well, when money starts coming in, I guess you kind of think you're better at it than others. But people made fun of me for a while because in the private equity world, the top of the totem pole was people doing deals. And the bottom of the totem pole was the people doing fundraising. And therefore, it wasn't the people that started the original private equity firms, the ones when we were getting started earlier than us, they were known as deal guys.

27:58They all had Wall Street experience. Virtually every private equity firm had people who had been in Wall Street before, investment banking principally. And nobody was a fundraiser who started a firm. And while I became a fundraiser, I hadn't had that background. I realized I was reasonably good at it when people kept saying, he's a good fundraiser. And people kept saying, hey, he's a relentless fundraiser. And that was because the reason I did it that way was this. I came up with two ideas that maybe changed, or maybe you could say three, that changed the way our firm went forward and to some extent had some impact on the industry.

28:33These don't deserve Nobel Prizes. There are no Nobel Prizes for private equity. But number one, I decided that by being based in Washington, we take advantage of that and say that we understood companies heavily affected by the federal government, and so many companies are, that people began to say, okay, if you understand the federal government impacted companies, maybe we will let you take money from us and invest in those kind of companies, defense companies, telecommunications companies. And then secondly, and I brought in government people who had government credibility, so former Secretary of State Jim Baker, Frank Carlucci, former Secretary of Defense.

29:07While they weren't doing things with the U.S. government, they had credibility to be able to explain to people how the government worked. But second, the two bigger things were this. All private equity firms initially were mom-and-pop shops. When KKR did the famous RJR deal in 1989, they probably had seven or eight investment professionals at that. They're very small firms. They were all very small. I decided what we would do is we'd have our buyout business, which is what the other firms had done, but then we could do what mutual funds had done, which is to take our brand name and say, well, if you like this in buyouts, give us a chance in venture capital.

29:42If you like some buyouts in venture capital, give us a chance in growth capital. If you like us in these three, give us a chance in X and Y and Z. And so that was a way to have multiple disciplines to grow the firm, but also gave us a lot more expertise and we could hire more people to do these things. We had to raise more money to do it. And the second thing was to globalize it. Historically, people did buyouts or venture capital in the country in which they lived. I decided I would try to spend a couple of years building a European arm, an Asian arm, a Japanese arm, an African arm, a Latin American arm, a Middle East arm, and then have funds everywhere with multiple disciplines.

30:16And that enabled us to grow. Now, some people have done it better than we did, and I made some mistakes along the way, for sure. But that's how we grew the firm. And by having these multiple funds, I had to raise more and more money. See, normally in the private equity world, you raise a fund. It's not unlike a presidential campaign. In presidential campaigns, you run out, and you're nice to your voters once every four years, and you spend a lot of time with them. In a buyout fund, let's say, or a venture fund, you're going to really spend a lot of time cultivating your investors for, let's say, every four years when you need the fund to be replenished.

30:52But I had so many different funds going on that I was in the market all the time. So that's why people began to see me as a relentless fundraiser, because I was not raising a fund once every four years. I was raising a fund every month because we always had new fund coming out. That's why I became to be known as a fundraiser, and I built a gigantic in-house staff. Typically what you did in the private equity world initially, and maybe the venture world, the venture world is somewhat different. You hired Lazard Frere, you hired Merrill Lynch, you hired other third-party vendors who would raise the money for you because you only needed these people once every four years.

31:28Since I was raising so much money for so many different funds, I built a very, very large in-house team to do it for, you know, and other people hadn't done that yet. And so that's why people always saw me running around the world fundraising because I had so many different funds to raise. Can you put a finer point on a relentless fundraiser? When you think about what relentless actually means, what did that mean back then? Relentless generally means if you go to raise money, to do that, you have to get in the door. So using contacts that can help you get in the door, calling people, can you get me a meeting with this person?

32:00How can I get a meeting with this person? So forth. Then when you have the meeting, after the meeting is over, I've said that a good meeting with a prospective investor probably has a half-life of about two weeks. maybe two and a half weeks. If you haven't followed up or made a subsequent connection within two, two and a half weeks after that meeting, it's not going to lead to anything. So by having follow-up letters, try to get follow-up meetings whenever you could, sending them more and more information, relentless in the sense of that. And then third is travel. Initially, the money for venture funds and private equity buyout funds came from three resources initially.

32:42They were high net worth individuals slash family offices. They were banks and they were insurance companies. In 1978, the Carter administration, I was in it, but I didn't have anything to do with this. The Department of Labor there said ERISA funds can now go into private equity. Before it had been thought that under the prudent man rule, people who are in ERISA trustees or pension fund trustees could not put money into illiquid things like buyout funds. because it wasn't a prudent man investment. The prudent man standard was the original standard people were used. As a fiduciary, you could put money in some fund or something.

33:22The Department of Labor said it's okay now, and as a result, KKR began to get money, I think, from the state of Oregon, the state of Washington, and other places like that, and other firms began to do that. And so more and more people opened up their doors to people, and so by being a relentless fundraiser, not only would I have to go around the world to raise the money, but I have to go to many different types of people. So initially you go to banks, insurance companies, a high net worth. Now you've got pension funds and then sovereign wealth funds. Now you've got private wealth managers and so forth.

33:51How much were you traveling? I was traveling a lot. I was probably on the road 365 days in a year. Probably I was on the road 200 days a year. How old were you? I started Carlisle when I was 37, in part because I read that entrepreneurs start their companies between the age of 28 and 37. I realized if I didn't do it now, I'd never do it, and I'll be condemned to practicing law the rest of my life. So what I did is I would go on the road for five days at a time, typically, and then come back on weekends. And then I started going overseas more and more, and so I would maybe go for 10 days on the road and then come back.

34:31And, you know, so I did that. Now I began to hire more and more people, so I didn't have to do it all myself. and a lot of the people we broke up. We have fundraisers all over the world and different types of fundraisers, and other firms began to do the same. 250 days a year. Well, I mean, it's no different than anybody who has any profession. You're probably working 250 days a year if you're a good professional. Now, I happen to be traveling a bit for it, and I was fundraising for it, but I was also recruiting people for the firm too. I was probably the principal recruiter as well as fundraiser.

35:05So I would think of new ideas that we have a fund in Latin America, a fund in Europe, and I would then people would say in the firm, OK, fine. And they'd say if he can go recruit the people, my partners would oversee the investments. And then I would go raise the money for the people's funds that I recruited. Were your kids born at that point? Oh, yes. Yes. Most of them. Yeah, I didn't. I started Carlisle in 1987. My first daughter was born in 1985. My second was born in 1988. And my son was born in 1991. So, yeah, they were, but as little kids, they didn't really know what I was doing that much.

35:41Yeah, and then did the traveling slow down as they could remember who you are? Well, I think it wasn't quite as bad. They obviously knew I was home on weekends for sure. Meaning when they weren't like one, two, three years old. I was home on weekends, and I spent a lot of time trying to help them on their school things and other stuff. But I wouldn't say I'm sure they're better fathers than me, but I'm sure they're also worse fathers than me. Did you always know you wanted to make a huge company? Did you always know that you wanted Carlisle to be this global expansive firm? If you tell me that you know somebody that's going to build a company that's going to change the world and they're going to have a gigantic company, that person is probably somebody you should be nervous about.

36:20Because anybody that has that gigantic a plan at the beginning probably is delusional. So I had no ambitions about that. I thought this would be a tiny little firm. Remember, I had no background in business. Nobody ever done a private equity firm in Washington, D.C. You know, I didn't know how to raise money. So why would you think we'd be successful? No. What was the most common of those objections that you would hear from potential investors? Well, initially, you've never done this before. I mean, remember, we didn't have any buyout experience, and we didn't have a track record. What people want, as you know, is a track record.

36:56So we, you know, look, the people we raised money from early on were people that we knew or were giving us a chance. People who were, you know, much more, let's say, bureaucratic or had all kinds of standards, they weren't giving us money so early. But in the early days of private equity, now it was raising money. The large pension funds were just getting into private equity. So CalPERS, I think, gave us one of their first private equity investments. They had not been in early on in private equity. They were the biggest pension fund in the United States. And so, you know, we grew with some of those organizations.

37:32Was there somebody you always wanted to raise money from, like a great white buffalo that you're most proud of, that you finally got over the line? Well, early on, CalPERS was the biggest pension fund in the United States, so getting them, and I think we were one of their first, if not their first, private equity investment. That was one. You know, in the Middle East, I was always interested in raising money. because my last name is Rubenstein, you can probably tell that I'm Jewish. I never wanted to go. I'd never been to the Middle East. And so I figured, you know, showing up in the Middle East to raise money with a name Rubenstein probably wouldn't work.

38:07So when Jim Baker joined our firm, he'd been a very famous Secretary of State, and he said, David, look, being Jewish is not a problem at all. You know, if you're an Israeli, it might be tough to raise money, but being a Jew is not a problem. So I went with him to the Middle East, and he was right. Of course, when you're traveling with the former Secretary of State, there's a legendary Secretary of State, Jim Baker. People treat you well. But after he wasn't doing the trips with me, I was still treated well. And I spent a lot of time in that part of the world as well. And then the Far East, I spent a lot of time there.

38:35And I found, interestingly, that anywhere you go in the world today, people generally have the same kind of metrics. They've either been trained in business schools in the United States or the same kind of methods. So they all recognize how internal rates of return work and what MOECs, or multiple and invested capital, means and so forth. And they all have a fiduciary responsibility. And they all have one other thing they're all interested in. What's going on in Washington? Since at least the end of World War I, the United States has been the most powerful country in the world by far. In terms of economic power, social power, cultural power, geopolitical power, military power.

39:15We're the dominant country. And anywhere you go in the world, people are always saying, well, what's going on in the United States? Or what's going on in Washington? What's the president doing? And to the extent that I could give the information about that, because I'm living in Washington, I worked in the government, people were interested. So obviously if Jim Baker is saying to people, well, here's what I think, Jim Baker, people are interested in that. Now, they weren't interested in my views on geopolitical matters as much as Jim Baker's, but I could, you know, say here's what I understand is going on, and they would discount some of it because I'm not as famous as Jim Baker.

39:44But people all over the world, and even more so today, what's going on? As we talk today, people all over the world are really interested in what President Trump's doing because he's changing many different things from what they've been used to. And so when I go around the world today, and I still travel a lot and making a lot of— You still do. Oh, absolutely. I've raised a lot of money for Carlisle still. I'm still on the fundraising trail. And you're saying you're up to speed on all the political ongoings. I am sure there's always people more up to speed, but I know people from the Democratic Party, Republican Party.

40:18I've known all the presidents reasonably well since I left the White House. I've had contact relationships with them, but the staff people that live in Washington have been cabinet officers or White House staff people. I've known a lot of them, so I can distill a lot of that and try to explain it to people. I'm sure that people can do it better than me, but I can do that, and people are interested in hearing about that. Do you consider yourself political? No, I am not, though people won't agree with that, because I worked in the Carter White House. Doing what? I was the deputy domestic policy advisor, which is a fancy way of saying I was the deputy to the guy who was the domestic policy advisor.

40:56I didn't know Carter at all. I'd never met him when I got a job in the White House. And I worked in the campaign. My boss was Carter's domestic advisor. He made me his deputy in the White House. And I spent, you know, four years there. But I stay out of politics. I don't give money to politicians. No money to anybody. I've never given a penny, never one penny to anybody running for president of the United States. Why? Well, the reasons are this. One, the way our system works is if I give$100 to somebody running for president, every mistake that person makes is going to be blamed on me. If this person comes out with a position that is antithetical to my own views, they're going to say, well, you believe in the big green deal.

41:39I had nothing to do with the big green deal. I just gave this person$100. So that's one problem. Secondly, as Carlisle became bigger, if I gave$1 ,000 to somebody's elected president, and that president has a defense department, and they give a contract to some company that Carlisle owns, the headline could be, Rubenstein gets a contract because he gave$1 ,000 to Joe Blow or something. I don't want to read that. Now, obviously,$1 ,000 is probably not the same as giving$1 million or$10 million. But rather than have anybody even think that I'm trying to buy access or I'm politically getting things, I just don't give any money to politicians.

42:16Well, also, being political automatically ostracizes 50 % of constituents that could potentially want to fundraise with you. Like Michael Jordan famously was like, you know. I know. Republicans buy shoes, too. Yeah, exactly. But, for example, for the last 11 or 12 years, I've hosted a program at the Library of Congress. I am the chair of the Library of Congress support board group called the Madison Council, and I chair the National Book Festival, and I'm pretty involved with the reading world and books. And I started this program to educate members of Congress about American history a bit. So once a month, I host a dinner at the Library of Congress with the Library of Congress, where I will interview Doris Kearns, Goodwin, or the equivalent, about American history, one of their new books.

43:04And so I will host and pay for the dinner and the reception. Members of Congress come, Democrats and Republicans. We ask them to sit with people from the opposite party, which they rarely get to do in Washington, and sit with people from the opposite house, which they rarely get to do anymore either. and if I was a ardent, ardent Democrat or an ardent, ardent Republican, I'm not sure I could get people in the opposite party to show up at that kind of event. So by being right down the middle, I think I can get more people to show up and maybe educate people better. I've been the chairman until President Trump fired me.

43:37I was the chairman for 14 years of the Kennedy Center. I was the chairman for four years of the Smithsonian, and I'm chairman now of the National Gallery of Art and the Library of Congress Board. So all of these things I think I can do more effectively by not being involved in politics. Did Trump actually fire you? I read that headline, but I was going to ask you if that's true. 14 years. Yes. I was put on the board by George W. Bush, and President Obama reappointed me, and then President Biden reappointed me. And I know President Trump reasonably well, and I've talked to him about many different things over the years, and I think he likes me, for whatever that's worth.

44:16He was not happy about something at the Kennedy Center. Somebody told him there had been a drag show there, and he was upset about that. I think some people told him that the Kennedy Center honors weren't going to people that were politically conservative. Whatever the reason, he decided to make a change, and he wasn't happy. I think that President Biden had put some people in the White House staff on the Kennedy Center board right before he left office. Whatever the reasons, I don't really know. he decided to change the board. He told some people he thought that I had already retired because I had announced I was retiring in December and it was a big farewell party for me.

44:54But the board couldn't find somebody to replace me, so they asked me to stay a couple more years. So I was still the chair, but he says to some people that he thought I had already retired. Whatever the case, he replaced me. So in the long history... With himself? Yes. in the long history of the United States government, 250 years we're about to celebrate, I'm the first person ever to be fired by a president and succeeded by him. Were you bummed or was it already, it was already, were you sad? Were you bummed or was it already, it was already happening anyway? Well, I was, I've been trying to retire.

45:29Did that board mean anything to you? Well, I, when you chair a board for 14 years, I chaired it with the Kennedy Center. I've given, I gave the Kennedy Center $120 million over the years, which is a lot of money. and I was their biggest donor by far. I did a lot of things there and I think it was useful. And I think Democrats and Republicans both thought I had done a good job, but, you know, life goes on. Going back to the fundraising briefly, maybe actually across fundraising, presidents, podcast guests, is there anybody that made you the most nervous? Meaning you think about before you go to the Middle East to raise somebody or you go to meet a president, you go to the White House, or before you sit down with a podcast guest.

46:06While you think about it, I can tell you mine if you want. What was yours? This is really random, but when we were starting to break out, there was Ariana Huffington came on the show. Oh, I just interviewed her last week. She's amazing. And I take great pride in basically reading, watching, listening to every single thing a guest has ever done. Ariana's written 15 books. So I'd met my match at that point. Anyway, I was quite nervous for Ariana. My mom was a big fan of Ariana. And we were doing it at our CEO summit. She was there. It was in Napa. It's like a two o 'clock interview. I was at the bar.

46:39I was like off a glass of wine I could like feel my heart coming out of my out of my mouth anyway That was by that's who I've been most nervous for by far Well when I was starting when I in Washington the first time I met the president United States I met Carter for the first time he's president United States, you know, and or when I've met other heads of state or other government leaders around the world, you know, I guess you had some nervous Xi Jinping or other things one time I I became the head of a group in China of American business people, and we're starting to start the meeting. I just became the chair, and they said, no, we have to stop the meeting.

47:14We're going to go meet a Chinese leader. Okay, fine. And I was the head of it. I was the guy sitting next to the Chinese leader. They didn't tell us who it was, and it showed up. It was Xi Jinping. So I'm doing, I got, you know, Hank Greenberg, Steve Schwartzman, you know, Tim Cook, all these people sitting on the sideline, and I'm sitting next to Xi Jinping, and I'm trying to make talk with him, and I didn't really know him at the time. There's always somebody that you haven't met before, but you're always wondering if you're going to screw up the meeting. The first time I met Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, I would say, am I going to screw up this meeting?

47:46Now, when I'm doing interviews, I have enough self-confidence to realize I know pretty much how to do the interview, and I'm not that intimidated by anybody at this point in life. Maybe I should be, but not that intimidated. Yeah. When you recently bought the Orioles, Right. Congratulations. Thank you. We won yesterday, our opening day. Opening day. 12-2. We had six home runs. It wasn't at home, was it? It was in Toronto. I was there. You were there. I went there. Then I went to the Duke basketball game. I've been chairman of the board of Duke. Come on. I flew down from Toronto. Oh, you had a great day.

48:19We won yesterday. So, yeah, it was a great day. This thing could have been at risk if those things were losses yesterday. I might have had to cancel this interview. That's what I'm saying. Or maybe it would have preferred you have canceled than coming in all grumpy. It was good yesterday. But, you know, life has always got ups and downs, and I'm sure there'll be some bad things happening sometime soon. So you went from Toronto. Actually, I did a speech, and I interviewed in Texas yesterday morning the two sons of two of the most famous people in Texas. Trammell Crowe was a big Texas real estate guy.

48:51His son, who runs it now, Harlan Crowe, and then the guy that built a very big real estate business, and I interviewed them together in front of the largest real estate conference. Then I got on the plane, went to Toronto, and did the Orioles. Met with the players in the beginning, said hello to them. Went out, sat there. We won. Flew down the Duke game at New Jersey. We won, and now I'm back here. Is this your first opening day with the Orioles? No, last year. That was last year. Did you get the butterflies yesterday? I mean, I'm not playing, so it's something butterflies aren't so much for me.

49:25Oh, I think you get more butterflies when you're not playing than when you are. You know, we have a good team and, you know, baseball, in baseball, if you win 55 % of the time, you're pretty good. So, you know, you're going to lose some games. So it's not, it's okay. I mean, I'm past it now. And can you remind me, I know in the NBA and then the NFL, they recently allowed people from private equity or private equity firms to be investors into the teams. What are the rules around the NBA? Let me explain. Yeah. The NBA has not had restrictions on private equity firms investing in it, but typically the private equity firms don't invest qua firm.

50:04They invest with high net worth individuals who are the partners in those firms. In recent years, though, funds have been raised for the sole purpose of buying minority stakes in teams. So you don't usually have in the NBA, I don't think there's anybody, That's a private equity fund or a venture fund that owns a majority stake in a team, but you will have people who work in those firms own a majority stake. And then now these investment firms own minority stakes, like Arctos, a firm based in Texas, that just raises money to invest in minority stakes. In the NFL, what they did recently was historically you had to be an individual to own a stake in a football team.

50:43Because the teams have become so expensive and valuable, they're hard to find anybody to sell your stake to. Because if your team is now worth$10 billion, how many people in the United States can afford to buy a$10 billion team? So what the NFL did is they said private equity firms, as private equity firms, not the founders or people there, private equity firms can invest up to 10 % in a passive role in an NFL team. And maybe someday they'll let me be higher. but right now it's 10%. So that's what's going on. With the team now, with the Orioles, do you care if you got a good deal or a bad deal?

51:19Like, is that even a part of your evaluation? Are you just happy to own a sports franchise as part of your retirement swan song? I would answer this way. Nobody who's in the business world wants to do a deal that somebody says, you're an idiot, right? Even somebody not in the business world wouldn't want to be called an idiot. So we obviously have a lot of people working on these kind of things with us, lawyers, accountants, and investment bankers, and we put a lot of time into it. I would say, you know, in my case, I was not interested in the internal rate of return as much as other things. I grew up in Baltimore.

51:57I got a public school education. My parents grew up there. They got a public school education to the extent that they stayed in school. They're buried there. I will be buried in Baltimore, too. And I said, you know, what have I done for Baltimore? They gave me a school education. they gave my parents education i was growing up there so i did i well i'm on the hopkins medicine board this is the hospital and i'm on the hopkins university board for a while and i've given money to johns hopkins i've given so much more money to things in washington or around the country than i've done in baltimore so i thought i should do more to help baltimore and while i will ratchet up my philanthropic giving in baltimore i wanted to do something to help with re-energize the city and baltimore's had a lot of problems when i grown grown up was growing up the city had roughly 950 000 people it was the eighth biggest city in the united states eighth or ninth now it's not in the top 20.

52:46population's about 600 000. it's now 63 african-american whites have moved largely out of the out of the city not largely but a large percentage of them have major corporate headquarters have moved it's got a lot of problems the the professional hockey team moved the professional basketball team moved the professional football team moved at one point when another team came in. But the Orioles are really important to the fabric of the city, and they haven't won a World Series since 1983. And the ownership, which had been there for 30 years, was not that popular in Baltimore, rightly or wrongly.

53:20They just weren't that popular. So there was an opportunity to come in, maybe re-energize the team, and then re-energize the city and give back to the city. So while I don't want to lose money in the team, I'm happy to have a lower rate of return or just get my money back at some point. But I suspect I will own it well past the time that I am on the face of the earth. So my children will figure out what to do with it at some point. Having your hands in so many things, boards, teams, companies, do people want things from you? Meaning, does it get tiresome because you have access to so many things?

53:52Like your thing about people being most interested about the boards that you sit on with the schools because they want their kids to go, that type of thing. Does that get old? Honestly. You get used to it. So, look, I could basically hire my staff that says, I don't want to hear from anybody that wants anything from me. Just isolate me. I don't want to do that because I want to help people. So I get philanthropic requests every day, as anybody reasonably wealthy does, and I try to do as much as I can. I get requests every day to make speeches and do interviews. People want me to come and do an interview at their organization.

54:29And why? Because my speaking fee and my interview fee is zero. I don't charge expenses for anything. So I flew down to Texas, did this thing the other day, flying down to Texas to do an interview with people. I know them, but I didn't have to do that. But people invite me because maybe they think I'm good at it, but also I don't charge anything. But I do it because I enjoy helping other people. I get people calling every day, can you invest in my company? Do this? I make a lot of speeches at universities and business schools. And the biggest challenge is after I finish, the students all come up and they want, you know, five things.

55:08They want an autograph, a selfie. Those are easy to do. It just takes time. Three, they want me to hire them. Four, they want me to give philanthropic money to their charity. And five, they want me to invest in their business venture. And, you know, so it's hard to make a speech and get out of there on time if I've got to deal with a lot of people. So I try to do as many of these things as I can, but I realize that, you know, I don't have an infant amount of time, so I try to be polite, but I don't mind it. If I minded it that much, I guess I wouldn't do it. It would be worse if nobody ever called me and said they wanted me to do anything, right?

55:41That might be, maybe people said, you know, at this point, you're not useful for anything. Do you wake up with energy in the morning? Meaning, like, even just what you did yesterday, like, you're not a spring chicken. Don't take that. I'm 75 years old. Yeah, and you went to three different. I'm not old enough to be president of the United States, but I'm still. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. I would say, I don't know why I don't want to bounce out of bed the same way I did when I was 22 or 23. But look, I have a purpose in life, which is to finish the projects I'm working on.

56:13I've got a lot of philanthropic things I want to get done. I'm writing. I try to write one book a year and that takes time. I'm finishing up the next one. I'll just be my sixth book. I just started writing and now I've started a column that I have that we put on Substack and goes out to all the Carlisle investors. I do that. And I make a lot of speeches and a lot of interviews and a lot of TV shows. But I like it. I'm not doing anything I don't like. So it doesn't bother me. I just wish I had more time in the day. I wish I was younger. I wish when I was 35 people were coming after me as much because then I probably have more energy.

56:47Now I'm older and I don't have quite the energy or the drive that maybe I did when I was 35. Hey, who knows? Maybe 75 really is the new 55 with all the longevity work that you're doing. You might break through. You and Brian Johnson could crack this nut here. People say to me, why don't you run for president? I say, I'm not old enough. Biden's 82, Trump's 78. I mean, I've got to mature a little bit. Would you? No, no, no. Actually, would you? Have you ever considered it? People tell me all the time, I've done a good thing for the country. I've done some good philanthropic things. I won the Presidential Medal of Freedom recently from President Biden.

57:22Congratulations. Can I tell you one of the cooler things that I saw you do recently in terms of investments was buying one of 24 copies of the Magna Carta? That's right. One of 24 living copies? Is that right? There are actually 17 extant copies. There are 17 extant copies. 15 are in British institutions. One is in the Australian Parliament. And then there was one that Ross Perot had bought from a British citizen. He bought the Magna Carta? That's so insane. Yeah, what happened was it was a very clever thing. Ross Perot had bought it from a British family had it in its possession for about 700 years.

58:00They went land poor, and they decided not to give up their land, but they'd sell the Magna Carta. Ross Perot bought it preempting an auction. He put it on display in the United States at the National Archives. I was asked to go to a viewing of it. I didn't know what it was all about at New York, at Sotheby's. And then I looked at it. The very clever curator said, you know, this is going to be sold tomorrow night in auction. It's going to go to somebody from Russia, somebody from Mongolia, somebody from Saudi Arabia. And it's a shame. The only one in private hands, the only one in the United States is going to leave the United States.

58:31And it was the inspiration for the Declaration of Independence. So I said, it worked. And I said, I'm going to come back tomorrow and try to buy it. And I did. And I won. And I put it on permanent display at the National Archives. And that's where it is now. How much did you pay for it? I paid$21 million,$21 million,$21 million,$21 million,$21 million,$22 million. Today, probably worth about$100 million because this was 2011, and prices have gone up. Then what happened is I started buying other documents. I now own more copies of the Declaration of Independence than anybody in the country, including the U.S.

59:01government. Come on. Absolutely. And didn't you buy, what else, the Emancipation Proclamation? I own several of them signed by Lincoln, yes, and I own 13th Amendment signed by Lincoln. I own more copies of the early printings of the Constitution than anybody else. But I put them all on display everywhere. I lend them to the U.S. government or the Smithsonian or wherever else. Yours is in Trump's office right now. No. Actually, when I met with President Trump recently, he said to me, David, you know, this is after the Kennedy Center fire, he said, David, you know, I got a lot of portraits here.

59:36How do you like the way I've redecorated the Oval Office? And I said, well, you got a lot of portraits. Where did you get them from? He said, I got them from the National Gallery of Art. So, well, you know, I'm the chairman of that. You want that job too. He said, I don't know. Should I want that job? I don't know. So I said, well, it's a good job. I don't know if you've got a lot of other things to do. And then I said, what you should have here is for the 250th anniversary, you should have a copy of the Declaration of Independence. That's what we're celebrating. And I think he thought it was a good idea.

1:00:00And then he arranged to have it. I did not lend him one because I knew the White House already had one in storage. So they put it out there. I think it's there now. It's there now. It's covered with the drapes. and he probably shows it off. The reason they cover it is because... The sun, right? The sunlight, yeah. And you don't have any of these sitting at home? No, nothing. I have it all in places where people can see them. Now, my theory is that the reason that it's important to preserve these, let me try to explain. We know what's in the Declaration of Independence. It's a computer slide. You can look at it tomorrow on your computer slide or any time.

1:00:34Why actually preserve the copies of it? Because we know what's in it, so the words are apparent to everybody. So why actually keep the old ones? Why not just tear them up and say they're old? Because a human being's brains have not evolved to the point where you see a computer slide, it's the same as seeing the document. So if I said to you tomorrow, I'm going to take you to see the original of the Declaration of Independence or the original of the Magna Carta, you're probably going to read a little bit about it before you get there. When you get there, you're going to have a curator explain it to you, and afterwards you might be more likely to read about it after you've seen it.

1:01:05So it's a better human experience, and that's why we preserve these things. And then after I started doing that, the Washington Monument had its earthquake damage. I called the head of the park server and said, how much is it going to take to fix it? And he said, I don't know. Congress can take forever to get it done. I said, forget Congress. I'll put up the money. And I was surprised the citizens thought that a private citizen putting up the money was a novel thing or unusual. So I did that, and then I started fixing up other buildings, the Lincoln Memorial, Jefferson Memorial, Mount Vernon, Monticello, Montpelier, Custace Lee Mansion.

1:01:35And the same theory. If you go to visit Mount Vernon, it's going to be a better experience if you see what actually was there when Washington was living there, rather than just look at all the pictures. If you see the picture of Mount Vernon, it's not the same experience, because the human brain has not yet evolved at a point where seeing something in person is the same as seeing on a computer slide. It might in 50 or 100 or 1 ,000 years. Right now, it's different, and that's why preserving these things, I think, is a good thing to do. I can't imagine someone having their hands in more things than you do, and you're still fundraising today.

1:02:07Do you have a way that you organize your days? How do you even allow your brain to compartmentalize things? Well, I have different people that help me. So I have a staff at Carlisle that is, I have a chief of staff who's been with me for 33 years, and she helps with the schedule and makes sure that that works. Then I've got two people that help with my correspondence and my writings and so forth. Then I have a researcher that I've hired. Every two years I hire a new person who's an investment banker who probably wants to go to business school afterwards. And I think seven or eight of them have gone in a row to Harvard Business School.

1:02:44And so they do a lot of the research for me. And then I have a family investment office in New York, and they have people that help me with other things. And then Carlisle has a lot of people that help me for some things too. so I have people that help me and so I'm you know I'm not the most organized person in the world but I'm reasonably organized because I listen to these people about the schedule and so forth do you have any boundaries on the ways that you like to architect your calendar times that you like meetings to end dinner times times that meetings start in the mornings like do you have any habits rituals or routines around your calendar schedule I generally prefer not to have meetings before 8 a.m.

1:03:22but I have find now sometimes I have to start them at 7 a.m. because the schedule so doing meetings before 7 a.m. is not great but Johnny 7 a.m. was like don't like to do that many but that's 7 some I'll do it 730 but 8 o 'clock generally start today and go quite a while as you've gotten more into longevity yeah has the things around exercise sleeping and I how have you evolved your friend the other day Ariana Huffington who's written a book on sleeping she'll tell you all about it you know eight hours is what you need I've never been able to get eight hours consistently. Jeff Bezos, I interviewed him.

1:03:56He said he has to get eight hours every day to function. And I just interviewed a couple other people about, you know, what you should do to be healthy. And I interviewed just yesterday, two days ago. I'm the president of the Economic Club of Washington. I've been the chair of the president for 18 years. And I interviewed people there, and sometimes we put them on TV. I interviewed the head of Cigna. Cigna is the second biggest health insurance company in the United States. This guy has run 150 triathlons. He's in good shape himself. And you listen to somebody like him, and he tells you, look, you've got to do certain things if you're going to live longer.

1:04:31Good genes is one thing, but behavior is a good thing, and obviously what you eat. And the best way to live longer is not to smoke, not to drink alcohol in excess, eat well, exercise regularly, and have reasonably good genes. So I have reasonably good genes. My parents made it to their mid-80s. I've never smoked anything. I've never drank alcohol, so I'm unusual in that respect. But I probably eat too many processed things. I'm a vegetarian, but I eat crackers or something like that or whatever. So I'm not perfect for sure. And I don't exercise enough. I have bought a lot of exercise equipment, and I have the osmosis theory.

1:05:14If I walk past it, maybe by osmosis it will rub off. Or as some people say, I get my exercise being a pallbearer at the funerals of my friends who exercise a lot. So I got to exercise more. That's what I have to do. Can't you just put a few dumbbells on the plane when you're flying around to all these things? I should. I should do that. Do you have a shower in there on the plane? No, I don't do that because showers on planes have one thing in common. They leak and they rust. So my greatest possession is not the Magna Carta. It's my airplane. I told my family bury me in my airplane. I'm never so happy as when I'm in my plane I can I can call people or I cannot call people they can't reach me easily I can watch TV.

1:05:57I can sleep. I can eat the food I want to eat and I can read what I want as my favorite experience is being in my plane Nobody bothers you unless I'm gonna tell them to but I'm happy so I don't know my family will bury me in the plane or not It tends to be Cuban says this Buffett's Buffett says this you say this like it seems to be that Back to my earlier question around the dollar denomination where does money actually make a difference in life? It seems to be that there's a bunch of things that happen and then there's a plane. And it seems like that is the one thing that many people have. Look, it happened.

1:06:28I used to fly when I was younger. Bury me in my plane. Well, you have to remember. I had never been in an airplane until I was probably a senior in college. My parents couldn't afford to give me an airplane ticket. So I'd never been in a plane until I was a senior in college. once I flew once. Then when I started Carlisle, I had to fly more and I thought, hey, I can fly business class. And then I got used to business class and I say, on these long trips overseas, I'm going to fly first class. I died and going to heaven, I'm flying first class. Then to come back to see my kids on weekends, I'm in Europe, I flew back on the Concorde.

1:07:06My God, I'm flying on the Concorde. I'm sitting next to Paul McCartney here and, you know, So all these famous people, I thought, wow. Then I finally said, I'm going to buy a plane. I'm going to charter a plane, I should say. I'm going to charter planes when I have to go places I just can't rely on commercials. I started chartering them. Then I said, I'll buy a small plane. But I said, I'll never do it where, like, I'll have a small plane, but I want to go to New York, I'm still going to take the shuttle because it's cheaper. Then I said, well, I can't make it this time, that time. I take the plane to New York.

1:07:35Then I bought another plane. I said, well, I'm never going to use the fly across the West Coast. It's too expensive. Then I started, well, I'll fly it once or twice, and I got used to flying. I said, I'm never going to fly a plane overseas. That's ridiculously expensive. Then I started saying I can't make the trip, otherwise I'll fly it overseas. Then I said, I'm never going to fly to Asia on a plane. Then I said, okay, I'll fly to Asia on a plane. So I got used to it. And so it's like anything in life. You get used to it for a while, and you can always rationalize anything in life, right? So I rationalize.

1:08:01I'm saving time. I'm healthier when I fly on my plane. But, you know, it's my great luxury. I don't spend a lot of money on luxuries. I'm not a big luxury kind of spender, as you can probably tell from my clothing. I'm not that fancy a person. You're fancier than me. Yes, but I'm older than you, so I'm still used to wearing ties. But I have all these ties I'm amortizing. I bought them years ago. Amortizing. I'm amortizing. I noticed your watch. It's not. It's the cheapest watch I could find. I have a theory. It's also facing you. It was facing you. You just moved it over. I've noticed this whole.

1:08:33It's because I can't find a band that will stay tight enough. But my theory on watches is that, and I have people in my firm have watches worth half a million dollars, a million dollars. I theory, since I was a kid, that somebody's going to steal my watch or I'm going to lose it somewhere. And actually, I've never had a watch stolen or lost it, but I always buy the cheapest watch I can find. So I do that, and the theory is if I get stolen, I won't make a big difference. No other fancy things. Car? You don't drive a fancy car? The car I have is about 25 years old, 22 or 23 years old. I don't like to buy cars.

1:09:05But do you get driven around, or do you drive the car yourself? No, no, no. Now I have drivers lots of places. But sometimes on a weekend I'm going somewhere. I have the same old car my kids, I think I bought for my kids 20-some years ago. It's still in the house. So I never buy cars. I'm just not interested. You don't buy homes everywhere? I have fewer homes than people my net worth might otherwise think they should have. I have a home in Nantucket that President Biden used to stay at. He used to stay there every year. Every year? Yeah. They rent your house? Thanksgiving. I give him to all of them to use it.

1:09:36Were you there? No, no, no. I went there. It was for him to use it on Thanksgiving. But I have a home there. I had a home in Beaver Creek. I'm in the process of selling it. I have a home in Washington. I'm not obsessed with homes, but I, you know, okay. Do you think the things you own own you? Do you think that is real? Not so much. I mean, I have a great collection of historic books, a great collection of American books, a great collection of historic documents, a great collection of American prints. But my children have said to me that if you don't give it away before you die, we're going to sell it.

1:10:13So I've got to figure out what to do with all these things. Is there any one of those things that you want to keep after you pass? Anything? That I keep? No, I'll give a lot of these historic documents I'll give to the U.S. government. You will? Yeah. I appreciate you doing this. Thanks very much. Thank you. So thanks for your time and thanks for getting me out of here on time. I wrap with one question always. All right. When you hear the word grit, what do you think of? Grit? I think of John Wayne, true grit. Wasn't that a movie he did? I think so. Right. David, thank you. That's it for now. If you liked the episode, please leave us a review or go back into the archives where we've done more than 200 episodes with some fantastic folks.

1:10:57This podcast is a Kleiner Perkins production and I'm Juven. Thanks for listening.