Emerald Fennell, Vol. II

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0:43Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. As an actor, what's the worst note a director ever gave you? Can you take your knickers off and let me film up your skirt? That's not a cool note. No, it was not a cool note. Wow. Okay. Yeah, there you go. How'd that go over? Not great. Wait. More. No. But, you know, it wasn't how long ago. When did I start? You know, it's not long ago, is it? Prepare your ears, humans.

1:24Happy, sad, confused begins.

1:30Hey guys, I'm Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, a returning champion, the wonderful writer-director that is Emerald Fennell. Her new film is Wuthering Heights. This is a great chat with one of our most talented filmmakers working today. More on that in a second. Before we get to Emerald, I want to remind you guys, if you enjoy what I do, check out the Patreon. Come on, patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused, early access, discount codes, the heads up on our live events. We've got some cool ones cooking. If you like what I do, check that out. Support us over there.

2:03It helps us make more stuff over here. Okay. Not much preamble here except to say Emerald Fennell, you know her, you love her, Promising Young Woman. She won the Oscar for writing that one. Saltburn, I don't need to tell you about that one. She is reteaming with Jacob Elordi and now Margot Robbie in this very bold, big take on Wuthering Heights. This is not your mom and dad's Wuthering Heights. This This is a take on Wuthering Heights, as only Emerald Fennell could deliver. It's gorgeous, it's romantic, it's sexy, it's all the things you want in an Emerald Fennell movie, in a Wuthering Heights film.

2:37And if you've never heard her chat about her work, her writing, she's a cinephile, she's smart, she's funny, she's everything we like on this podcast. And this is a delight, as always. So I want to thank you guys for watching and listening. Remember to hit that subscribe button, however you're enjoying this. I appreciate you guys. I want to thank not only Emerald, but the folks at Hoff Studios who gave us their facilities here to record this in person. And without any further ado, here's my chat with the one and only Emerald Fennell. Wait, look, it's Emerald Fennell. I didn't see you there. Yes, sorry, I just appeared.

3:14You just like swooped down, repelled. Yeah, absolutely. Like The Fly, I just like zapped in. The Fly is on my list of movies to bring up today. We were just talking Cronenberg. The Fly is a perfect movie. Correct me if I'm wrong. No, I won't. I'll correct you for being right. Very jet lagged. It is a perfect movie. Also, Jeff Goldblum as a fly still would. As half man, half fly. Great. In fact, more. The grundle fly is preferable just to the. The more the merrier. Oh my, we're off to a perfect start. Emerald, it's good to have you back on the podcast. Thank you. Congratulations on this ambitious, big, bold, wild, beautiful movie.

3:54Wuthering Heights is the film we're talking about. Thank you. It will drive us mad, as the poster promises. I think probably, yeah. It's driving me mad. In the best possible way. Yeah. It's also a good reminder for men like myself of normal height that there are people like Jacob that make me feel inferior. Like, not even like a man. Like, he's a tall drink of water, to say the least. I think also the thing about both, and Margot too, you know, spending whatever it's been now, a year of my life looking at the, and just Anshazad and Hong and Alison, basically staring at these faces for the last year.

4:30Right. It's really, it's kind of changed me profoundly. I'm now like, they're so beautiful and they're so amazing. If Jacob were a foot shorter, is he your Heathcliff? Yes. Really? Yes. I think that. That speaks to his. Totally. Well, because I think that he's, it's to do with, look it's to do with his eyes and it's to do with who he is like I think the thing about Jacob that I find really fascinating and wonderful is that he's he sort of emanates this kind of tenderness and goodness and and I don't know there's something very unusual about him that's hard to kind of explain and that's the thing that I loved for this was that you know if you have to play kind of the biggest anti-hero of all time.

5:23You have to play somebody who's extremely hard to love. You have to be a person that's not just a deeply talented actor, but somebody who's sort of got this, I don't know, innate kind of sympathy that they bring with them. And that's what he's got. I mean, if anything, being so tall is complicated for shooting. I would think. Yeah, just the practicalities of it. Yeah, the practicalities. But it does feel like you utilize that, not to harp on the height thing, but it is striking. I feel like you're utilizing it. You're leaning into it in the film. That differential is important. And sometimes it's like he almost can't fit into the physical spaces you put him in.

6:01Well, we built, I mean, Susie Davis, who's the production designer on this and who worked on Saltburn too, and it's just like the best, the best ever. One of the early conversations about building the set was to build Wuthering Heights to be too small for him. to have that idea that he's never quite fitting into any place that he's in. And even later when he kind of comes back and he's wearing these kind of beautiful clothes, again, you know, working with Jacqueline, the costume side, about nothing quite, he's never comfortable. He's always sort of straining against the kind of physical reality of the place he's in.

6:37So at what point in the process were you, you're making Salt Burn, was Wuthering Heights I mean obviously I know this is this is the book for you this is a book for you um how far along were you in thinking about this seriously as your next project and when did Jacob emerge as your Heathcliff? So I um I talk I've talked about this a bit in the past and I always think I sound like increasingly mad but I live I just live in kind of imaginary universe the way that I write is I've always lived in a few parallel universes at once and And so one was Saltburn and one was Promising a Woman. And, you know, one was my book Monsters.

7:14And one has always been Wuthering Heights since I was 14 and I read it. And I never know what the next thing is going to be because I only do one thing at a time. And what kind of happens is I go to these little places of my imagination and one of them sometimes just like pulls into focus a bit more sharply than others. And it's never necessarily the one that I expect it to be. and so part of that process with this was obviously it wasn't just Jacob you know when Jacob came out in his 2005 sideburns and I was like oh he's he's the Heathcliff on the cover of my book you know that's the kind of that was my 14 year old girl self and that was the kind of thing that sort of like you know that image in that book kind of destroyed my life and I was like oh wow and so that was sort of folded into it but also but also for saltburn you know the grave scene in saltburn is kind of taken from wuthering heights and everything that i think about in a funny way is taken from wuthering heights because it was like the first thing that made me think that you can make something i don't know difficult and transgressive and and you can make something that speaks across century you know it just kind of like changed my life so much and so I'm always thinking about it but yeah it was um it felt Wuthering Heights felt so much a part of Saltburn and perhaps that's kind of what it was but yeah and then and then of course it was just I just thought he'd be he'd be amazing it's interesting so you mentioned like you know the 14 year old self like I was doing to some of the math of like where you were as a kid in terms of films that you've referenced or maybe haven't referenced and these two you have but you're 11 and 12 I think respectively when Basil Orman's Romeo and Juliet comes out and Titanic come out the following year is it safe to say those two have informed everything including this so I realized I was just nodding so emphatically and this is a this is an oral medium so I should say yes like any young woman I would say particularly those movies were just completely transformative not just because of my lifelong truly psychotic love of Leonardo DiCaprio in those movies but but because they were kind of disruptive actually you know Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet was so kind of audacious and beautiful and it felt so young.

9:51It felt like it was something that I could connect to. And he was using Shakespeare's actual words, you know. And then Titanic, which could have been, you know, in many ways could have been an action movie and is an action movie. What it was was the most moving film about being in love. And it just so happened to have like an enormous iceberg. And so those two, yeah, those two films just kind of, I think, changed all of us. And also they changed the way I kind of maybe that I like to make movies that people would want to go and see multiple times that would become kind of like part of you. Because I think I realized early on that I wasn't going to make stuff for everyone, that not everyone would love anything I could make.

10:39But that hopefully for the people that do love it, they'd love it like I loved Romeo and Juliet. Well, yeah. So I remember, I'm a couple years older than you, I think, actually more than a couple, sadly. But I was watching Titanic and going back and back and back. And it was like, you know, it wasn't, it was designed for everybody. Yes, it was ostensibly for teenage girls, but it was like, I was probably 18 when it came out. and wanting that experience, wanting to feel and just go through that experience over and over again. And those movies are very rare. And I feel like people aren't even attempting the big swings like that anymore.

11:22No, and also I think feeling right now, feeling emotionally or physically is kind of embarrassing. We're in a real world of kind of, we live in a state of constant embarrassment and shame, I think, all of us. And so to make anything that you say, I feel things, maybe you might feel things too, is sort of gauche. Right. And so I feel like I can be cheesy. This is your way of being unironic and earnest. I think so. And I think that is dangerous to be a feeling person now because it is sort of an act of transgression. And I think that I am, but also like, I think the movies are also sort of, you know, they can be sharp and they can be, you know, all the things that they are a little bit like ironic and things.

12:15But mostly what I want is for people to feel something. And that's like scary because it's much easier or I think it would be easier to be restrained and subtle and to kind of not be so extra all the time. but I you know but I think I don't know I don't really know how to do it any other way I love the maximalists I love like the bat the bazes the George Millers like I want it all I want that I mean I can subtleties great too yeah of course absolutely there's totally room for all of it and I think it's just we've been it's now and I feel actually now more and more things are feeling a bit like we're getting into a much more like expressive world of movie and tv making again so that's really fun we'll be right back with more happy sad confused

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16:26Okay, so talk to me a little bit about your approach to this. You can go a thousand different ways in adapting anything. Did you know, when you started to adapt this, did you know what you wanted to use, what your way in was? Or did you go through different iterations of what your Wuthering Heights would be? I think, well, I think what I knew was, because I'm such a big fan of it, and I'm so obsessed by it, I knew really early on that I wasn't going to be able to do, that I don't think anyone could do a very literal adaptation of the book. Because the book is not a very literal book. It's very emotional.

17:02It's very strange. But what I really wanted to do was try and make something that felt like a 14-year-old girl's imagining of the book. So then I wrote down, having read it then, of course, for the first time and then many, many times since, I probably hadn't read it for a couple of years when I was really thinking about it. And I wrote down everything I remembered from the book. And some of it was right. And some of it was nearly right. and some of it was just absolute outright fantasy and wish fulfillment and so then it was a kind of and then it was that thing of deciding which of those things to preserve which of that hopefulness to keep or or the kind of you know I don't know the sort of your own relationship to something and and of course part of that was then like just doing because I'm you know I'm a nerd just a huge amount of research and not just of all the other movies and you know because you really want to make sure that you've so much of things can be absorbed you know so there are I think 11 or 12 movies of this of this book all of them are different in some ways and the same in some ways they all kind of share a DNA but profoundly different and so I needed to obviously having watched all of them make sure I hadn't accidentally absorbed something so there was that and then And there was all of the thousands of sort of illustrations and then like figurines, posters, decorative plates, all the and Kate Bush's song and all the other songs.

18:34Like there's so much of when something is this old, it sort of has its own. You know, you go up to the old parsonage where the Brontes lived and it's still and it's an industry. Right. And so it's sort of trying to find a way somehow of responding to all of that. Yeah. So you put the title in quotes as kind of an announcement of like, this is Wuthering Heights, but this is a version of Wuthering Heights. This is my Wuthering Heights. You could have called this Emerald Fennell's Wuthering Heights. That could have been the title. Can you imagine how pompous that would have been? I mean, others have done it.

19:08I would have. No, no. I think others have done it and others have done it deservedly. But I think with your third film, also, I think my reputation is such that I don't think it's a great, you know, you want to. you want to yeah kind of keep away from that a bit i mean i always found it funny like i was saying before we started like dracula always comes up in our conversations like that it was called bram stoker's dracula when ironically that was also a very similar kind of like that was a take that was a that was such a great take a great can we just talk about that take and but but i do think but it's but it's important because i mean basil london's romeo and juliet is william shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet because it is literally word for word the text and actually for me I really did keep as much of Emily Bronte's like I would say I would say it would be up there in terms of adaptations with with the kind of word for word I hope it's quite high in terms of her words so I think but yeah I mean of course I had to put it in inverted commas because there's no way of even attempting something like this that is going to even touch how good it is or how rich and complicated and difficult and you know and I think that I knew being a kind of fanatic about the book myself I knew that whatever I did could never encompass everyone's love of the book so I wanted to kind of be clear that I know that it's an attempt and only that but also like yeah when it comes to like something like Coppola's Dracula I mean that's a perfect example that is just I mean it's it's the feeling it's like the distillation of the gothic to a degree the sexiness the camp you know because I feel very strongly and definitely was sort of thinking with when making Wuthering Heights like you cannot acknowledge that the gothic which is so emotionally overwrought and so often in a lot of ways far-fetched you have to exist with some amount of humor and some amount of of of camp i think i think that's like a wonderful thing that's why i love that movie because it's just it's just marvelous and also i should a shout out to um to Dracula Dead and Loving It, the Leslie Nielsen banger.

21:34Because that is also, I would say, as additive to the canon of Dracula as anything else. And if I had to sit down and write, if I had to write about, if I had to do what I did for Wuthering Heights for Dracula, so much of Dracula Dead and Loving It would be there. Because I don't know anymore what ends. Well, and Mel Brooks did that with Frankenstein, Young Frankenstein, part of why that works, and it's my favorite comedy of all time, is it's, take away the comedy, it's a gorgeously shot, faithful Frankenstein movie. Yes, it's a masterpiece. They shot on the same sets as the original James Whale.

22:10I didn't know that. That's amazing. Well, I mean, Robin Hood, Men in Tights. Where does the Robin Hood myth and that begin? You know, so I think all of that stuff, I think, you know, when you make a movie, especially a movie of a story that's so enduring and that people know very intimately or don't know and have heard of, you're kind of having to somehow, I think, engage with all of that stuff, too, the sort of echoes that it leaves. You are, you have been making vampire movies, I think, secretly or not so secretly the last few times. out like heathlis heathlis could have been a vampire reveal in the third act of the film well so could kathy true yeah they're feeding off of each other yeah so have you ever considered an actual vampire tale yes of course i mean i i think horror is the place that i start from like horror is my natural space you're good at dread you're good at thanks thanks well you know that that's what haunts me no sorry why would you know you know you know when i got hypnotized this is so crazy when i got hypnotized firstly the first thing that happened was the hypnotist said that nobody had ever gone under as fast as me he was like hello lovely to meet you and i was already under he was like ma 'am we haven't started we have not started i haven't hypnotized you i was so ready to go but the thing that wouldn't they so they do a thing when they hypnotize you for like various phobias of course I'm riddled with them they they ask who's in the room with you and they personify the things and my first one was like you know whatever basic bitch anxiety there's like please Lee please ask anxiety to go say thank you you're trying to protect me go and I was like thank you babe they all go one by one all these little freaks that torment me but then the last one is dread and he said okay asked red to leave and I just went sort of silent and he said has dread left and i was like no and he said ask well what happened and i said she won't leave and she never left still there she never left they got rid of all of the other stuff we know it's a she i think so i'm haunted by i'm quite i'm quite haunted but so dread i think is my and when i think of the the artists that i love i mean they they call patricia highsmith the the kind of grand priestess of dread right and dread is something that i think we're all very familiar with and it's part of love and it's part of rage and it's part of shame and all of those things are something that I think about a lot.

24:49Were you at in cults? It sounds like you would be very susceptible to a cult. Oh my god of course I would be. Look at me. I'm desperate. I'm desperate for somebody to just take you away and give you give you a oh just put pop me in a cloak. Just pop me in a cloak babe. I just you know it's it's well it's why I think Fleabag 2 was so moving and so connective to so many people is that, you know, what she says, and I won't be able to do a direct quote because I couldn't because you're so good, but just want somebody to tell me what to do. And I think that that's a very profound, and that's where Phoebe's genius, you know, it's just so connected, I think, to have so many of us feel now.

25:30We have so much autonomy, so much apparent autonomy in our lives, and yet we're so powerless. And so I think, and especially like, you know, of course. Would you be susceptible to a cult? I don't think so. I'm obsessed with them. I mean, Jonestown, like, give me a Jonestown doc and I'm like... Why haven't they made... Do you know what... And then the studio thing. I was just going to say, in the studio, the Kool-Aid movie, I was like, I know we're all laughing about this, but I would die to see Scorsese's Kool-Aid, the movie. Of course. Someone needs to do like the real... They do actually need to make that movie.

26:02No, it's so chilling. It's so chilling. Well, it's... Well, but also, I mean, if we may, if we touch on the terror of these times we live in, it is suddenly we see how... I don't know what you're referencing. No, I don't know what I'm referencing either. I don't know the kind of the pressing of hell against our windows. Let's talk more about Dredd. She's here, don't worry. She's in this room. I feel her, yeah, yeah. Can you feel her? She's here. There is that palpable... I mean, we were talking about Baz and I think about world building And I think this movie really, your first two films are fantastic, but this movie you have leveled up in such a way as a true world builder.

26:42There is such a palpable sense of this world from costume, production, design. It's all there. Talk to me about sort of like leaning in and how much of that is in the script. Just how satisfying it is to like get to have the tools at your disposal to make something like this. It's so satisfying. It's so wonderful. As somebody who loves movies, and, you know, I went to Universal Studios when I was a kid, and I was like, and somebody was painting a white picket fence on one of the sort of lots on one of the, and I was like, oh, people do this. This is someone's job to make these things. You can, you know, as somebody just living in England who watched movies, I was like, oh, it's a physical reality.

27:26and that's such a huge thing for me is that if you're if you're building worlds they better be real even if they're surreal I want to I want to feel them texturally and so I've been so lucky I've been so extremely lucky to get to work with the people that I work with and the crew that I work with as well as the actors who are wanting to come and make something that could be terrible like that's where we approach everything from the beginning is like let's imagine we've never seen a period drama let's imagine that we're we're approaching this from a purely emotional place let's imagine we can do whatever we want without judgment and and that we can do something that has a kind of emotional physical connection to an audience and let's start from there and everyone I work with loves that and so it means that you know we could make and it's a sort of combination to go back to the kind of question of how does it start it there is some is in the script because it's a kind of a necessary sort of bit of plot or kind of character development whatever but a lot of it is just lots of conversations about how things make us feel and you know with Susie a lot of the conversations were about were about dread and about what what kind of how places give you a primal response and so Wuthering Heights was we kind of made it wet and it and it sort of built out of this rock and nature's sort of invading it and then at Thrushcross it's this seemingly lovely place where nature's been sort of contained to a kind of really psychotic degree and both places give you a sort of uncanny slightly repellent feeling and i think that's that's the that's where i like to be is in that space of like you're leaning in but your face is going to get burnt right or you yeah well and i can imagine this is going to be i've only seen this film once but this is this is a film that will reward going back and because you're using production design and and set and and costume as metaphor and and and you're again leaning into that this is this is hopefully i don't know if this is part of the mission statement this is the poster on the wall of the teenage girl and the film that they're going to keep coming back to i hope so you know because i i guess it's sort of that's who i always am speaking to like i'm the first audience i guess like how subconsciously are you thinking about that in the screenwriting process or even on set of like I'm speaking to my 14 year old self here or is that just sort of intrinsic to I think it's just yeah it is kind of intrinsic you know there's I I'm not I'm not very some I I'm not very uh I suppose I I it's quite an intuitive process and it's quite and it's a and it's a bit of a like um i yeah i i'm not very thematic even though i think i think that the films have strong themes it's not i'm not working from that place i'm usually working you know with promising young woman i was just working from a kind of personal place of this thing that people keep telling me isn't bad if it isn't bad then what if this then if i did this why would people be so scared you You know, and it's like, or with Saltburn, you know, it was about, you know, it was about these books that I've been obsessed with my whole life.

31:00These like what happened in a country house one summer and why we're all so kind of obsessed with looking at people's lives and, you know, what we do. You know, it's just it's all it all comes from this kind of very personal place. And so, yeah, I'm never very. Mostly, I'm just looking to feel myself. and if a performance makes me feel something or a prop makes me feel something, then I'm hoping it will make somebody else feel something. More Happy Say Confused coming up.

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32:33When you're directing actors on set and you know a scene has to achieve a certain level of romance, of sexiness, you can't say to an actor, be more sexy in a scene. So how do you get them there if you're not feeling it in that moment? It's honestly the same as every other scene. So I think that the thing that is, the main thing that starts is rehearsal, casting, the very beginning conversations. And we do so much rehearsal and with everyone in the cast and all of those sorts of things. So by the time we get to filming, we kind of know where we want to be. And sex scenes are just romantic scenes.

33:20They're just connected scenes. Or they're scenes about power. Or they're scenes about rage. You know, they're no different. It's a power dynamic that you're looking at. And so therefore, it's never about the thing that it's about. Right. and so I think for me it's always like how do we communicate what this very specific scene needs to do and that's why they're just such great actors is that they understand that as much as anyone else none of us you know we're not a sex scene isn't in there for no reason it's in there because it kind of tells you something about the characters and I think I think in this movie and in Saltburn very much so.

34:03I think it might surprise some people when they finally see this movie that it's not an explicit movie. It's a very sexy movie. It's a very romantic movie. But there's almost no actual nudity in the film, if at all. Right. Is that is that something that was considered at some point in the script stage? Or is that a definitive early idea? Like, I don't it doesn't. It's not what I need in a film. It's not what this film needs. how did you get there? Well, Saltburn wasn't explicit either and everyone like but the thing is that the only nude scenes in Saltburn are when alone so they are one actor and one is about grief and the other is about joy the sex scenes you never see any nudity at all and you never I don't think you ever see below the weight I mean you rarely see below the shoulders you know the most the biggest erotic scene in that movie is between a man and a bathtub.