Guillermo del Toro, Vol. IV

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0:44No, stop! Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned. We have each other. FX is the Bear, the final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney+. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

1:28Hit that subscribe button if you haven't already. And maybe check out our Patreon. Now is a really good time. Patreon.com slash Happy Sad Confused. You get the early access and discount codes to live events, early access to every single podcast we do here. Bonus materials, merch, autographed posters, and some other really special treats just for the holiday season that we've cooked up for you guys. So it's honestly probably as good a time or better than ever to check out the Patreon. patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused. Okay. We're going to get to Guillermo. Not much preamble is needed because we all know and love what Guillermo del Toro has contributed to film in his remarkable career.

2:10This conversation, as always with him, it's kind of a masterclass in filmmaking and film history. We certainly dive deep into Frankenstein and why this has been such a passion project for him and how it came to be and why it is so personal on a familial level to him. But we also touch on some really cool, fun stuff like Justice League Dark, which we've talked about before, but never in this much detail. I don't think I've ever heard him talk about these key sequences that he was going to do in the film. It sounds really cool. We talk Blade. We talk a possible musical version of Pan's Labyrinth.

2:46We talk about Superman. Some other really interesting comic book stuff came up in this one. Yeah. If you love Guillermo, if you love you know, genre filmmaking, this episode is for you. And if you listen to this podcast or watch it, yeah, Guillermo del Toro is why we're all here. Right, guys? Okay. Without any further ado, check out Frankenstein. I'm sure you have already, but check it out if you haven't already on Netflix. It's right there for you. And enjoy my conversation with one of the best. It's Guillermo del Toro. The one and only Guillermo del Toro back on the podcast. This is your fourth time I'm unhappy, sad, confused, my friend.

3:24I know. One more, you get a free hat. Five-timer club gets hats. I hope you have one on my size. One size fits all. Congratulations, man. I've really thoroughly enjoyed this one. I've seen it three times. I've had Mia on the show, Jacob on the show, so we obviously had to have you on. Talk to me a little bit about this project. Look, every Guillermo del Toro film is a passion project. You don't do jobs just to do them. But this one goes back to childhood. Give me a sense of, like, put me in your shoes, because you've dreamed of this project for 50-plus years, and now it is concretized. You can never change it, Guillermo.

4:05It's done. You have made your Frankenstein. And that's a complicated thing, isn't it? It is complicated. I mean, the fact is, partially, it's a great joy. Most of it is a great joy. but there is a line in the movie that says, having reached the end of the earth, there was no more horizon left and the achievement felt unnatural. That's exactly how I feel somehow. Everything has shifted in my life, really. This movie is sort of reaching, you're saving images, ideas, people. thoughts, recourses, you see, for when I make Frankenstein. I'm going to use this person, I'm going to do this, I'm going to try this.

4:59And then you do it, and you're at the top of the mountain that you wanted to scale, you know, and climb. And then you look and you you do feel a postpartum depression of sorts, you know? Worse. So it's a mixture of the great joy of seeing how it connects with people, especially young people that are seeing it three, four, five times more. It's great to see that it's connecting in the way that the original movie connected with me, you know? And this will be their Frankenstein for a generation. I mean, you're cognizant of that, I'm sure. Just like when I was growing up, Coppola's Dracula was kind of like, that was my Dracula, and it's embedded in my memory.

5:51And that's a privilege to be able to imprint that on a generation. It is. I think that Pinocchio and this one, for some people, it'll be the one they grew up with. Yeah. That is really great. And the journey really takes 50 years. I mean, it's not just a way of talking about it. I saw the original movie at seven and read the book at 11. And when I read the book at 11, I was already doing Super 8 films. I started at age eight. And I really thought, candidly, I thought, I'm going to make this movie. I'm going to make the movie of the book, which, frankly, over 50 years, I've read the book innumerable times.

6:34I've written prologues and introductions through several editions in Britain, in America, The Annotated Frankenstein, The Penguin Frankenstein, so on and so forth. And you become fused. My biography with Mary Shelley's biography, my concerns with what I know about the Romantics, it's become a religion. I mean, it really is a spiritual journey that starts at seven. I discover my Messiah in the creature, in Boris Karloff. And then I see Jacob coming to my set, fully made up. And I grabbed his hand and I did this on my head. You know, it's the gesture, where the gesture came from in the screenplay, you know.

7:22So something goes away. Something goes away. and it's almost bereavement and at the same time, my birth. So it's very strange. Yeah, it's closing a chapter. It's beginning a new one. It clearly feels like that. And look, this is like many of your projects we've talked about, probably Frankenstein many times and it came close several times. I mean, if this happens 15 years ago, Universal, obviously it's a different cast, but beyond just casting, is there, structurally, is it much different? I mean, what's the biggest difference between that version of Frankenstein and the one that we see today.

7:55You know, and you tend to think of yourself when you're younger, you tend to think of yourself as Victor thinks of himself, somebody that something happened to, somebody that wants to talk about the creature in an almost saintly way, and Victor doesn't have a past. I like the generational pain aspect of the movie. The fact that you talk not only as a child of someone, but as a father of someone, which came in the last 15 years for me. So I would have had a different perspective. I wanted to talk about fathers and sons. I always wanted to talk about Victor's tale and the creature's tale. God was always there.

8:45But in a way, you find out after 50, 55, you take a more active role in being the antagonist of your own movie. Yeah. You know, like you are more aware that things rarely happen to you, that you can actively start them and you can actively stop them if you're sort of examining your own life. And I think it's a more reflective movie.

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12:43I mean, the themes of parents and children, fathers and sons is not something you're a stranger to. You've obviously explored this throughout your career. You know, we've talked about your parents, especially your father. I believe both your parents have passed in relatively recent years. So, I mean, is this the first film you've made since both of your parents have passed? And is it significant? I mean, obviously, this film is so rooted in being especially a father-son story to not have your dad around, to have this out in the world. Just give me a sense of your emotions around that. Well, you know, I fortunately, my dad and I were really, really good for most of my life.

13:25You know, I went to the turmoils of adolescence, which is the only time where you are willing and able to tell the truth as you feel it. People say, oh, they're going through a difficult phase. No, it's actually very clear. It's the truthful phase. It's like when you're unvarnished, you can't control your emotions. Yeah, you say, why not? Yeah. So we went through that, and, you know, we loved each other very much, and we had great moments together. So I'm at peace. I'm at peace. I think he understood what I did. I understood where he came from. It's a very difficult generation. The generation before us had it very tough.

14:10So, you know, that was, I think we closed that chapter. My mother was revealed to me to be a big mystery. You know, I always thought I knew her better. And then the more I thought about it, and the more I, I would have loved, at any rate, to have her back for many years to talk about things I only now understand after making the movie. this, you know, I say this repeatedly for everyone else. And I said it yesterday for everyone else, you make a filmography for yourself. You make a biography. Yes. Yes. I mean, it's your life. Well, I think it's also very telling. I think upon my rewatches, like one of the first words the creature speaks is Victor in anger.

15:01And certainly the last word, if not the last words he says is is victor in love and forgiveness and that that is truly it seems like the journey of the film the path from from anger to acceptance and forgiveness yeah and also there's something beautifully structural in the screenplay where uh victor says say like you said it in our past when it meant the world to you and and the creature accepts the world at the end you know It really is, to me, the best movies I have made in terms of fulfilling a desire to tell a parable, you know, have this succinct, direct way of addressing an emotion or an experience.

15:52You know, as a storyteller, you cannot pretend to have wisdom because I don't think anybody quite has that. You know, only religious texts and philosophical texts. But art can aspire to share an experience. And I think that's what the movie is very strong about is I think movies need, people talk about all sorts of things movies need. They need to be in this place or they need to be of this scale. And, you know, they need emotion. Right. And I think the movie transmits that emotion very clearly to the people that are open and willing to accept it. Do you think it's safe to say you've always had a fascination with the cruelty men can do to each other, especially those closest to us?

16:41It seems like that's something that does recur in your work of how we can be monsters to each other, how we can tear each other apart. I think that is, in a mammalian society, it's almost inevitable. But it's not that it happens is not bad, that it happens and is never examined, that it happens in a way that exonerates us of any responsibility. That is really tremendous. I mean, I think that you're territorial. You are a hunter. You're a gatherer. There's things in our nature ingrained in the DNA that are going to lead to conflict. But if you're at least aware of it and you're present for it and accountable for it, I think that's interesting.

17:31Does making a film about mortality in a way make you any less afraid or preoccupied with mortality and death? Not to get morbid, but... No, I think it's not morbid at all. I think, you know, I'm a big fan of death. I'm a big fan of it existing. I actually, somebody asked me, if you had a superpower, what would it be? And I said, to have a button where I can turn myself off, you know, without any guilt or a preoccupation. I think that if you have a house made of diamonds, then they're not precious. Yeah. If you have a life that is eternal, then it's not precious. The fact that life is finite and it ends is what makes it really valuable.

18:24Yeah. You know? Okay. Can we talk a little bit about specifically casting on this one? So I alluded to the fact that this has gone through different permutations. You know, back in the day, perhaps it would have been Doug Jones. More recently, it very much was Andrew Garfield up until two months prior, essentially um yeah you must have been very far down the road of creature design etc like fixing it to to andrew was his did you ever get into like kind of performance do you have a sense of what his take on the creature would have been that would have been distinct from from jacobs no and well i think that it would have been completely different i mean the tools we were discussing child developmental stages and buto and this and that but they were they were the do what we use.

19:08But I think that there is a purity that Jacob has accessing the innocence and the fury of the creature. That is remarkable. I mean, I think people talk about the vulnerability of the creature a lot. And I agree, it's incredibly heartbreaking. But what impressed me is the pure rage that he can access. There's a close-up where he kills the wolf and is panting that is absolutely pure rage. And there's a couple like that in the film where he just reaches that point. And when he throws Victor around, he truly transits from air to fire to water, elementally really beautiful. And I think the other thing is, I think that Jacob came in and became the creature.

20:20You know, he said to me in the first phone call, this creature is more me than me. He's a man that is used to be judged in a superficial way. Right. And people think they know who he is, But he is not only an incredibly deep and serious actor, but, you know, he feels like the way the world sees him and the way he is. He's misjudged and misunderstood. Yeah. Just as the creature is. Exactly. Yeah. He's articulating that in his life. And that is infinitely helpful. What is it like, though, as as a filmmaker to kind of like go down a path where like in your mind's eye, you are you have created a vision with a different cast?

21:02I mean, I remember when we were talking Crimson Peak, you had a very like that was that was Benedict and it was Emma Stone. And then it's and then it switched. And this look does often happens. This is not unusual. No, no, no. But is that is that something that is discombobulating or is that just part of the process at this point that you figured out how to kind of. I remember for a long time the only Rasputin I saw on Hellboy was Jean Reno I wanted Jean Reno and I really really thought it would have been a phenomenal Rasputin but Hellboy I knew there was no movie without Ron Perlman no movie that was not negotiable and I think that as you go through the permutations you learn to recognize the accident from the opportunity.

21:56Right. They're similar, but, you know, the more you hone your instincts as a filmmaker, you go, no, this is actually better. Yeah. I think in Crimson Peak, the invariable casting was Jessica Sustained. I knew that it had to be Jessica. Yeah. And I recognized that I could not change. That was my North. With the creature, I really thought, well, interesting, because my victory is so solid. My Elizabeth is so solid, and my William is so solid that I'm curious to see who I can find. And on the same day, my daughter, Kim, and Ted Sarandos, same day, they said, you have to see Saltburn. And I kind of knew the first second I saw that movie and Priscilla, that I was on a path to find the guy.

23:09Is there a point still on every movie where you are convinced it's falling apart? Was there a day on Frankenstein where you're like, this just might sink? No, not on this one. No, not on this one. You know, very rarely you find them. But now and then you find movies that take care of themselves. Yeah. That, you know, they're fighting a fight that is above what you can fight. I mean, you feel the movie is alive and is willing itself into being. Other movies you have to will every day. into being. But I can tell you, for example, Pan's Labyrinth, you had to will it. Nothing was going forth. Every day was a struggle.

23:52It's always a struggle. And it's not that it's a better movie or a worse movie for that. It's just the nature of the project. Right. It necessitated every ounce of will. Shape of Water kind of willed itself into being, you know? Well, you've talked about how kind of like realizing to give yourself over to the process that you can have a vision and exert control, but at some point the movie's going to tell you what it wants to be. Was that something you discovered pretty early in your career on a specific film? No. No, it starts with, I think, Panthraven. I became aware of it a little bit, but I think it's...

24:36It's much later. Yeah. Much later. I think that Pinocchio, was key. Shape of Water was key. You know, when Shape of Water was rejected by a lot of people, they were not interested. And my producer said, it's a$40 million movie. And I said, well, I don't think I can get more than 20. And he said, you're never going to be able to make it. And I said, you know what? I disagree. Alejandro Iñárritu said to me, a budget is a state of mind. And I said, you know, because we made a movie called Beautiful. It was over$20 million, but it looked like a$4 million indie. And then Alejandro Doss Bergman for that amount, and it looks like it's 50.

25:32And I said, how did you do it? And he said, a budget is a state of mind. And in shape of what it was, the first time I said, we're making it, We're making it the way I think about it. And it's going to happen. And it happened. What does Iñárritu's new one look like? You've gotten a sneak peek at the Tom Cruise one, I'll bet. You know, I went, visited on the set. He's going to show it to Alfonso and I earlier than anybody else. I suspect that I haven't seen anything. I mean, when I was on the set, I absolutely was blown away by what they were doing. Amazing. I can't wait. I can't wait to see Tom in his hands.

26:06It's going to be special, I'm sure. So speaking of Tom Cruise, I have two goals in my life, professional goals. They're not really professional. They're personal goals. Get on Tom Cruise's cake list, which I'm sure you're on. You get the cake. I am. Yeah. Of course you are. Have you gotten it yet this year? Do you know? No, you get it a little later. Okay. So maybe I made the cut this year. I openly begged him at the most recent Mission Impossible. So we'll see if my begging helps. I mean, it used to be a coconut cake. Right. Last year was a lemon cake. What? Wait, wait, wait. This is breaking news.

26:37It's now a lemon cake? Yeah, it was a lemon cake. And it was, mine was vegan. Oh, he custom orders it for... No, but it used to be traditionally it was just an incredible coconut cake. He's mixing it up. He's iterating. I love that. The other, of course, is one of these days. I'm just going to break into the Bleak House and see it because I need to see it at some point. Do you have, is there one? Is it LA? Is it Toronto? Do you have multiple now? Like, where are you? There's two next to each other in Santa Monica. One is called Carmilla and the other is called Mircala. And they are on the same street.

27:16And then there's an apartment in North Hollywood that has part of the collection. And then the rest is, you know, here and there. But yeah, no, come over. And one of the things that I have is I finally, I was going through my warehouse and I have all the maquettes, the models of The Mountains of Madness on display in the horror room. So, yeah, it's worth it. And all the maquettes I did for The Hobbit. Amazing. So speaking of Mountains of Madness, it feels like more than ever, thanks to this Netflix collaboration where you're at in your career, you could get that made. couldn't you couldn't you really get mounds of madness made now and do you want to maybe i mean i would i would need to reread the screenplay at this age and see if it still does what it did for me back because you not every movie you want to do your whole life sure you know i read screenplays that i wrote when i was 35 36 and i don't want to make them yeah i'm not i'm not sure entirely if I believe the human drama attracts me more and more beyond the parable.

28:38I'm very interested in seeing where I go next because I want to go somewhere different. Not necessarily opposite. I mean, the next project is the stop motion of the very gen, Ishiguro. and it has ogres and basilisks and dragons and all that, but the center story is an elderly couple, you know, traversing the landscape looking for their son. It's sort of a stop-motion, Terry Malick fantasy meditation. I mean, if you know Ishiguro, it's all about memory and regret. Amazing. This is what he does. And the other one, I spoke to Oscar a little bit last night. Hopefully you guys are going to get together again.

29:27And that sounds, I mean, anytime you invoke my dinner with Andre and murder, I'm there. That's the log line. That's the pitch. Yeah, well, it's curious because it's really, you're going to journey with two characters, and you're going to understand how they were meant to exist in the same space, but they hate each other. Yeah. And how they learned that they are basically on the same journey in opposite directions. I mean, that was in Frankenstein. One of the key things I knew was the day Victor completes his process and gives birth to the creature is the day he loses interest in it. Yes. And the creature is the day the creature is born is the day the creature discovers the world.