James Gunn, Vol. III (SUPERMAN Spoiler Special)

25:35No. What do you have to say? What do I have to say? What do you have to say for yourself, James Gunn? It's not a defense, but like, I mean, it seems a pretty clear A.B. Well, first of all, he's not really brought down by internet trolls. They just, you know, they add to it. He's brought down by a guy who's trying to murder him. Sure, you didn't have that part. Yeah, that's, I mean, the guy's trying to kill him. He puts, you know, stuff in his, I mean, I don't want to spoil it. We're spoilers, we're good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He puts stuff in his lungs to murder him. That's not, that's nothing. Internet trolls are nothing compared to the nanites in his lungs.

26:14So when you're writing the monkey bots, et cetera, you're not thinking at all about your own experiences. I really am thinking about the fact that governments hire bots to, you know, create all this mischief. Yeah. So it's more about that. But, I mean, is it, you know, is it funny to me? yesterday i saw somebody yell something about the movie and then mitch gerrards who's a comic book writer just responded with the little keyboard emoji and a monkey emoji and i'm like oh i like that that's funny yeah i don't know if you ever have a hashtag as good as super shit associated with your name that's that big yeah i've had worse believe me um can we talk about their lex and superman's speeches towards the end yeah that really like explicate and only in a movie I think, can you have that kind of speech, I think, that really is like a fun lean into it.

27:04Like, this is who I am. This is what I stand for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you really get a clear vision of Superman embracing humanity and wanting desperately to be human. And Lex just being fueled by envy. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about where those two speeches came from? Were they self-evident? um well i always knew you know that they were later editions in the script okay they were from before we were shooting but like they were later editions the superman lex facing off um uh and you know so i mean the lex speech not the lex the lex speech that he gives to superman that That was a part of the movie from the very beginning.

27:52I mean, like that was always baked in. But the Superman speech at the end was a late addition because I felt like we needed it. Just to underline who he is, what's important to him, his values. Yeah, to sum it up. I mean, to sum up what he's learned, you know. And that speech was the greatest moment for me on set in my life, maybe, because it was this great moment where, and we have this all, like there's a behind the scenes documentary that I think is going to come out with the Blu-ray. And it was David, as people know by now who have been reading any, watching it, has a lot of questions. And he's got a lot.

28:40He just questions everything all the time. Right. And he's a very actor-y actor. And the guys who I'm used to dealing with are Chris Pratt and John Cena. They're my two stars I work with all the time. And they are not that. They are very boom. Yeah. And they just have learned to trust me no matter what. Right. That's what you get for hiring Juilliard. Yeah, I know. I know. I know. And so David is giving the speech. and I had so much writing on the speech because I didn't think the movie would work if the speech didn't work. And he came in, I was so nervous about it because I'm like, it could be too cheesy.

29:22I may not believe him when he says it and he comes in and he delivers the speech beautifully. And so I'm like, thank you, Jesus. Right. And then I said, okay, that was great. Let's do it again, but do it more intensely, you know, be louder with it. And so David does it again. He does it the way I wanted him to do it. And he does it more intensely. I'm like, that's even better. Holy crap. I'm like, David, do it like that one more time like that, you know, because I get also remember. So this, the shot is hard because he gives the speech, right? And we have the camera moving forward with him as he gives the speech.

30:01Then we pan over to Lex and Lex has to give his speech. Now, Nick Holt is the unsung hero in this story because he's perfect every time and never misses. But we swing over to Lex and then Lex gives his speech. And then we have to curl around Lex and come around as he's giving his speech. And at the exact right moment, with the camera coming to the exact right point about to stop and Lex about to stop his speech, he's got to get hit by crypto and go to Africa. So Nick has to go like this. The pressure is really on Nick this whole time. So the pressure is on Nick, of course. I don't even think about Nick because he's perfect.

30:44He's like the favorite son. David's a prodigal son. But they know it. They're okay with that. No, I love them both. And so, so David, you know, David starts to give the speech again and then he stops and he says, James, I just don't, I just don't know. I just had this conversation with my father about, you know, you know, this stuff. So I don't feel like I should be, I wouldn't, you know, I'm not sure I would be upset because I've been, you know, kind of cured by my dad and like, you know, it's like blah, blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff. And I'm like, okay. And so I'm on what we call the God mic talking to him and the other, he's only as far as that.

31:25He's not far, but he's through a wall, right? And I say, no, David, because of this. And we have this back and forth going where, you know, the point of it is, is that just because logically his dad has taught him what's right, It doesn't mean emotionally the words Lex is saying don't hurt his feelings. Right. And that you can be somewhere with your logic and your emotions are still there. And this is about him owning his emotions and experiencing his emotions and being honest in that moment, even though his dad, you know, his conversation with his dad changed him forever. Right. And he came in and I was saying it in a much stronger way than that.

32:17And David came in and he was he actually see him come in and the other room. And he's like, I just I'm like and I'm like, no, you feel this. It's in here. It's about what's in your heart. And I'm hitting him in the heart. And then all of a sudden David looks at me and he goes, got it. And then he walks back in stage and he delivers the speech. And it's absolutely like beautiful. And I learned something that day because, you know, I learned that my, you know, David's way was great. My way was better. But when David and I were on the same page, that was the best. That's what it's about. Film is a collaborative medium.

32:58And it was fantastic. And I got teary eyed. It was one of my favorite days on set. David wrote me afterwards, said this is my favorite day ever, you know, with a director, you know. And so it was a really great moment. And that's our relationship. I mean, that explains my relationship with David better than anything, you know. And it's just he is a really talented guy and a good friend. And, you know, but he's a handful. You know, David's my crypto. He's just irascible. He just gets on your skin. He can't be controlled, can't be contained. Let's talk a little casting since you mentioned David.

33:45So the war is, and we know obviously Nick was one of the finalists. It was David, Nick, and an actor, I believe, Tom Brittany was brought in. So I'm going to take a risk and say, yeah, it was Tom who is amazing. He's tested for me a couple of times. He's one of my favorite actors in the world. And I normally don't say when an actor tests because that's up to the actor to say if they want to test. But I'm going to say in this case that Tom Brittany tested and he's an amazing actor. And I hope to use him someday. And I hope, you know, other people are turned on to this guy because he's just he keeps being near misses, you know.

34:26Were Nick and Tom's takes interesting in their own way? Oh, my God. They were so good. They were so different and so good. And yeah, Tom was really fantastic. Yeah. There was talk that you went to Bradley initially for Lex Luthor. I did talk to Bradley about it. We had a short conversation. And at the end, I think, you know, I did want Lex to be someone that was more contemporary of Superman's. Did you write it in a specific way with an age like associated in the script? Didn't write it as an age, but like I just, I think that Lex Luthor is important to Superman. I think he's also important to the future of the DC universe.

35:06And I thought it was probably better. But yeah, Bradley would have been a great Lex. I mean, he's, Bradley's great at everything. He's pretty good. Was there ever a, you could have had Lex be a physical adversary, obviously in the comics he does don that suit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We still got plenty of time, man. Right. So in this initial - We see the early prototypes of that suit. Right, of course. So never in this script, though. You never have a physical adversary. All right, let's talk. The biggest question that people have asked, probably you already, is about Jor-El and Lara's message.

35:39Is it real? Has it been doctored? Is that the actual message? How can someone not think it's real? I'm just saying. How can someone? I don't understand. We did this. So in the test screens, people were like, is it real? You know, with AI, nobody trusts anything. Okay. In the movie. You make a point of saying, Mr. Terrific says it's real. Mr. Terrific says, I know those computer forensics guys. There's no way. That's Mr. Terrific. Smartest Lex Luthor. Then I have Maury, the Secretary of Defense, say, I think whatever you think about Luthor, but it's real. And then the clincher is that Gercos and Lex are walking together.

36:23Right. And, you know, Gurko says, ah, you doctored a message. This is great. And Lex says, it's not a message. You know, it's not doctored. It's real. And who thought his own parents would be the ones to bring him down? Okay. We just clarified. Just for the record. I just want to get it done. Are there implications for this going forward? Or have you dealt with this? I mean, do you imagine this being dealt with in future Superman stories? I mean, honestly, I think he deals with it in this story pretty much. I mean, I think that this story at the heart of it is a story about a guy who's doing things he thinks for reasons outside of himself.

37:00Yeah. Comes to realize through the love of a parental figure, his father and mother, that he is not doing things because of someone outside himself. He's doing things because of that's what he believes. It's not an outside force telling him what to do or what to think. He's doing it. It's not destiny. Right. It's his own choice. there are there are also echoes of star war ego yondu in that in this kind of like trio has that i mean in terms of like the dad that's the birth father oh yeah that betrays you that isn't who you think yes yeah yeah the adoptive father who really yeah yeah yeah yeah the moral compass yeah yeah i i yeah i don't know so i have a lot of adopted kids in my family yeah my best friend is adopted.

37:52A few of my best friends are adopted. I don't know why it is that those themes speak to me, but they do. So we've talked a little bit about some changes in the process of test screening, et cetera. You thank, I believe, Drew Goddard, who you've mentioned, Damon Lindelof. Any specific notes from those two gentlemen? Drew was a really helpful one. So we had three or four things that That were, you know, heatedly debated throughout this movie. Now's the time. Okay. Saving the squirrel. Okay. Heatedly debated. Just too much? Too silly? Too much. Some audience members didn't. Why is he saving a squirrel?

38:31Because it's a cute little adorable squirrel that was about to be crushed by a tail. Those are sociopaths, those audiences. I was. Come on. It wasn't a small amount of people. A lot of squirrel haters out there. Who knew? And this is in Los Angeles. Like Michael Rooker, he eats squirrels. He does. Of course. He hunts and eats squirrels. That's for real. That's not a joke. So the squirrel was a huge debate.

39:00Another debate was, and this was probably the biggest. There was two biggest ones. The other debate was Guy Gardner didn't call him a wuss in the first cut. He called him something else. The P word, I assume. Yes. Yes. Okay. And it got an enormous laugh, an enormous laugh because he said, you know, he said, don't be such a, and then he's, and then Clark goes, and this is what was cut. Clark goes, hey, there are kids here. And then Guy goes, I said, don't be. And then he walks away. And so that was a big debate, whether we're going to keep that word in. um uh and there were a couple of other little things but the other big one was does jimmy smile at the end when eve hugs him oh interesting that's the biggest okay i think that that one in the p word so it's like so he at the end um at the end jimmy we had different versions of eve and i got him on purpose so eve hugs jimmy and in one version he just smiles and another version he just stares out into the dark void that goes on forever relatable and then the third version he kind of like looks accepts his face and then he gives into it and smiles because she did save the day she is the unsung hero of the movie absolutely selfies save the day selfies save the day so there were three different versions I will admit I was although I was pro-skrl I was pro-void fair enough peter saffron was very pro smile and uh and we argued about this uh although it wasn't as heated as the p word arguments what about i also heard that maybe lex's actions were a little bit darker that that that he went even further um i mean it kills a guy point blank but like did you have the tone of lex's behavior okay yeah well there's a really dark thing in there that's there was a really dark thing but it was never a big once i saw the movie i'm like this is what was it so oh my god so so so lex shoots the guy in the head yeah that was always done in this extreme wide so it's not too graphic but the guy fell on the ground and blood is pouring out onto the platform and lex looks down and he sees that the blood is about to get on his shoes and he's like oh my god my shoes i feel like he's very you know it's like me he's very ocd like i don't like so so he's like oh my god my shoes he's like girkos get down on the ground and soak up the blood sure and girkos goes what no and nick looks at him he's the delivery is great because he just looks at him and he looks at him straight and he's like no and then girkos just sheepishly like sadly trudges forward and lays down on his back and he's it was like it's so funny and he lays down on his back and then just starts soaking up the blood and then nick looks over it you know superman says i'll see you tomorrow um and then they drive away mr handsome take me away and so that was a scene we shot right but you knew even that i cut it pretty early from the movie so So that was never, I don't even think it was ever even, it wasn't ever even in a test screening.

42:34Can we talk a little bit, Hall of Justice, the mural? We do see some. Yeah, the mural's cool, right? Right. So people are now starting to pick it apart and see some notable faces. Who do they think? Jay Garrick, Flash. No. Really? Okay. Alan Scott, Green Lantern. I don't think so. I got to look at the. Dr. Fate in there? I think Dr. Fate's in there. Yeah. Were any other characters considered for the Justice Gang besides the ones you landed on? Martian Manhunter, Black Canary, all over the place. Not that I remember. I mean, you know, not that I remember. Okay. They happen to be three of my favorites, so I just kind of was picking my favorite children.

43:15Any other villains? We obviously have Lex, but you could have done Brainiac. Brainiac was considered, yeah. Okay. I think that was sort of considered, but yeah. Everyone pronounces it differently. Mixoplick. I feel like if anyone could do it, maybe you could do... Mr. Mexiplexit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I... No. You could have... Ultraman could have... I could have seen a version where that's Bizarro, literally Bizarro Superman. Right, exactly. Is that... This is your take on Bizarro, or could Bizarro Superman be something that we see at some point? Well, we'll have to see where we go next. Okay. That's a very vague answer, but...

43:55That means I'm hitting pay dirt. I'm hitting the good stuff. No, it just means, or it just means I don't know what the hell I'm doing yet. Okay, well, let's get to that. We do know you are writing a script you've been writing, which is another Superman-involved story. Yes. Fair enough to say? Totally fair enough to say. You have been cagey, though, in saying it's not - I've been very cagey. Not exactly a Superman sequel, per se.

44:20Here's what I, okay, from the fan perspective, one of the regrets around post-Man of Steel was we never got like another superman adventure yes right we never got henry didn't get his shot in another superman movie yes yeah so make me feel better like it's it's superman is very important it's not like and it isn't batman versus superman it isn't okay it's not it's not world's finest batman superman okay okay this is game touchy territory um this is intended to be the next one you direct is there a timeline and when you think we might hear about this yes sooner than later yes like this week no can we i like interviews where i just say yes or no you're enjoying i'm gonna do that the next press tour i'm just gonna be okay everybody only yes or no questions it'll be so much less stressful um the audience loves all all of these characters and there's already talk supposedly mr terrific people love mr terrific yeah they love mr terrific they They love Jimmy Olsen.

45:22They love Eve. I mean, everybody. I mean, it's like it's great. Guy Gardner. So how far along sounds like Mr. Terrific and Jimmy are both being considered for series. That's what.

45:37One could see a Daily Planet show with Jimmy front and center. That doesn't seem like a crazy one could see that, Josh.

45:48Should we talk about Batman for a second? Oh, God. The heart of something. That hurts. The good news is you got the script. I mean, Guy Garter is going to be in Lanterns. Yes, we know that. Can we talk about the things that are out there that I've actually said? As opposed to the whispers online that are sometimes made up and sometimes real. I'm trying to clarify things.

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47:07Okay, we do know Matt Reeves did deliver the script. Yeah, he did. And we know you read it and you seem very pleased. I like it, yes. So on track for that release date, we feel like now we're headed in the right direction. Oh, yeah, for sure we're headed in the right direction. So there's some things we still got to work out. But like it's, yeah, it's headed in the right direction for sure. So we've had this conversation before, but I'm going to bring up the Batman DCU stuff. Like again, so obviously Brave and the Bold we know is being written. And the DCU Batman is still intended to be a different Batman than Rob.

47:37I guess my question is like timeline wise, like how does this work? Like is there, I presume you wouldn't want to release Brave and Bold and the Batman 2 in the same calendar year. It like starts to get a little confusing or no, you tell me. I mean, having two Batman running around at the same time. Probably not. But yeah, probably not. No, probably not the same calendar year. Yeah. Do you, is Brave and Bold when you think we'll see that Batman for the first time?

48:09I'm not going to say that. Okay.

48:14Have you gotten into casting yet in your head? No. Hmm. Why are you winking at me? That's weird. What do you think about the fans that talk about someone like Alan Richson?

48:30I am a big Alan Richson fan. both as an actor and as a guy.

48:41Let's just wait to see what happens. Okay, okay. I guess my only other thing I'll say on that front, and then I'll move on, I promise, is, again, and you can say anything you want or nothing at all, but when you're casting that role, it would seem to me you have to differentiate in some substantial way the take on Batman so it doesn't get confusing, right? Like whether it's a different age, a different vibe, something. Is that in your head? Like when we get there? That's always going to be the case. Yeah. What two Batmans have the same vibe? Well. Clooney and Kilmer? That's fair. Okay. Okay. I mean, just because, but they're the same director.

49:15Right. You know what I mean? So it's like. It's dictated by the material and the take. The material, the take. Yeah. Of course. The actors, you know, actors aren't important. We're nothing else. No, listen. And do I ever think about it? Sure. There's people out there I think about, but let's see where the script comes. in. It's not the furthest along thing. I mean, we have things that are much, much further along. Let's talk about the further along. Supergirl's in the can. Supergirl's in the can. Don't leave out Peacemaker 2. We're going to be talking about that in about a week. I'm very excited about Peacemaker 2.

49:45Peacemaker 2 is a direct follow-up to Superman. We have so many characters from Rick Flagg's in it, Hawkgirl, Maxwell Lord, Guy Gardner. So it's the direct follow-up to Superman. Very R-rated. I can't wait. I can't wait. we are going to see, we're going to see not only Lobo, but Crypto and Supergirl. Lobo is so fricking awesome. Jason Momoa is so, oh my God. Yeah. I mean, we've all agreed like this was like the easiest casting ever. It was. Well, he pushed himself on me too, I gotta say. But yeah, Lobo is great. And then, and, and that's great. And then we have Lanterns coming out, which, which is great.

50:30We have Clayface, which is about to go into production. Cast your Clayface. You have James Watkins directing. This is going to be - Mike Flanagan's script. Yep. And you've said the script is what sold you. I love it. It's always going to sell you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is - A total horror movie. Like, really, it's like, it could be a Blumhouse, you know, big budget horror film. And it's, but it's within the DCU, which I think is a cool thing to do. Let me just run down a few others. You tell me as much as you want or not. So, like, are we anywhere on, like, a Wonder Woman script? Yes. Yeah? Yes.

51:01You feel like there's a take, there's a direction. Yes. That feels distinct from what we've seen before. Yeah, very. Yes. Okay. Yes, I'm excited about, very, very excited about Wonder Woman right now. Do you anticipate seeing something like a new Flash, a new Aquaman in the next few years, or is that a little ways off? I wouldn't say the next two years for either of those characters. Okay. Okay. The authority still on your mind? Yeah, but that's been a rough road. That's a little slower one? Yeah. Just harder to crack, harder to - Yeah. The writer moved on to another project in the DCU that I think he's really killing right now.

51:39Okay. And that project would be? Another movie. That we haven't talked about? Yeah. Okay. Swamp Thing? Has Mangold delivered a script? We talked to James the other day. No, he hasn't delivered a script. He's been distracted with his billions of movies. Yes. But I think we're talking about it again. so and it's I mean Sergeant Rock seemed like it was very close do you still have hopes that it's going to come back around relatively soon hugely okay that's it's yeah I'm really excited about and with Luca still involved no okay okay um is there one filmmaker if you had your druthers do you could if you could lure anybody into the DCU who would you grab

52:30make your pitch Matt Reeves you already got him he's not in the DCU have you talked to him you must have talked to him about it yeah no I mean Matt to me you know listen Matt I love the people that are out there making pop movies that are still you know it's Matt Reeves It's Greta Gerwig. It's Ryan Coogler. It's their vision. It's the guys that, you know, and I'm friendly with all those people. And they just they're they're making big movies that still have, you know, themselves in it. They're personal, yet they resonate with everybody. And so I really I love people that are taking risks in the area of spectacle film because most of the stuff out there is not a risk.

53:20It's just, you know. It's disposable. Yeah. You know, I love disposable stuff. Yeah. But let's make it good disposable. Okay, fair enough. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's like I love big popcorn movies, but it's just like it gets to be, you know, boring when they're all the same. Okay, I'll end with this. What's the barometer of success when we talk in five years or 10 years and you're presuming we're still at DC? I mean, is it about who you've introduced, what you've done, like what you've led to? I mean, how are you gauging your own success? James, what is your relationship with your wife like now that she's forgiven you for disappearing for three years?

54:00You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really, it is, the barometer of success is, for me, am I enjoying myself creatively? And I have enjoyed myself creatively over the past three years. But it's also, it's just been too much. I've done too much, which is like, it needed to be done. This is a kickstarting this whole enterprise. So I needed to do too much, but I've, it was, it was too much. And I need to balance out my, my life with my work. And then hopefully that will make my work even better. Right. You know? And I'm, and I'm not stupid enough to say, oh, if I love the movie, then it's a success.

54:43Right. Because it's not, you know? It's not that easy. Yeah. You know, but what I think of the movie itself isn't really the most important thing. What I think of the process of making the movie. Yeah. Now that belongs to me. The movie isn't mine. The movie belongs to everybody else. Right. But the process, that belongs to me. So if there is a metric for success, it's going to be like over the past few years, did you, I don't want to say enjoy yourself, but was it rich? Was it fulfilling? Was it purposeful? You know, those are the things that I really look for. And luckily I'm making, you know, this movie in particular did feel purposeful from the very beginning because I sat down with the cast and crew on the night.

55:35We had dinner the night before we started shooting and we're like, this is a film about goodness. and everybody believed in that, you know, because I have been extraordinarily blessed to have really good people around me on this project and they're flawed, just like Lois and Clark, more than Lois and Clark, but they're all really good people, this cast, this crew. And we all believed in this movie so much and to see it doing so well by every metric is, ah, man, it feels good. Get some rest. You deserve it. I will say, speaking on behalf of millions that don't get a chance to say it to your face, I've seen it a couple times, and I feel happy.

56:24I feel hopeful. I feel invigorated and excited, and I feel like a kid again when I watch these movies, this movie. Congratulations. It's a tough feat to create a different Superman movie than we've ever seen. We've seen a lot of Superman movies, and this one's really special. So rest easy and I'll talk to you really soon. Thank you. I'll see you at Comic Con. Exactly. Thanks, buddy. You did it. Thanks, man. Thank you. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

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