Jessie Buckley & Paul Mescal

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1:28Hey guys, welcome to a special happy, sad, confused. I say special every week, but this time, here's why I say it. We're talking Hamnet, one of the great films of the year, with two of the great actors of their generation, Jesse Buckley and Paul Meskel, back on the pod where they belong. Thanks guys, as always, for checking out happy, sad, confused. Whether you're listening on your podcast app of choice, whether you're watching it on Spotify, where we're breaking new number records for the podcast, or on YouTube, I appreciate you guys. Make sure to subscribe to Happy Sad Confused. It means a lot.

2:01And if you love what we do here, you want more of it, you want early access, you know what to do. Or if you don't, here's what to do. Patreon.com slash happy sad confused. Please, if you can, check it out. Subscribe at any level you feel comfortable at. It helps us make more cool stuff for all of you guys. As for this conversation, let's talk, guys. If you love movies, and if you're listening to this podcast or watching it, you love movies, you know Hamnet is one of the special ones of the year. It is just now finally out in theaters. Those of us that have been lucky enough to see it at film festivals have been spreading the gospel of Hamnet for a while.

2:42I'm excited to see a broader audience finally experience this work from Chloe Zhao. it will break you in the best possible way. It's based on a book. It's inspired by William Shakespeare, and it is a tale of love and loss and grief. And it is poetically told and brilliantly acted by the sublime Jesse Buckley and Paul Meskell. As I said, two of the greats of their generation. They've both been on the pod before, but it was lovely to chat with them together. This was actually recorded a while back at the Toronto Film Festival, one of the film festivals where Hamnet screened. So grateful that they made the time in Toronto for this.

3:25We've been holding onto it for a while because we want to make sure that everybody experienced this conversation when the film was actually out in theaters. But I have such admiration for what Paul and Jesse have been doing in their careers, and especially what they do in this movie. They obviously know each other quite well. They were in The Lost Daughter, but they are friends on and off screen. And, you know, it's a rare treat to get two actors of this caliber at this age together in a movie and in a conversation like this. So if you love great acting, great films, this podcast is a celebration of that always, but especially this episode devoted to Hamnet.

4:04Happy holidays if you're in the States or wherever you are in the holiday spirit, right? I hope you guys are enjoying time with family and friends, getting a little time off of work. And my gift to you today, whether it's Thanksgiving, the day before, day after, is a really great conversation with Jesse Buckley, Paul Meskel, talking all things Hamnet and more. Enjoy. Guys, we're here. We're here. Jesse, Paul, it's good to see you both. Hey. Don't cry, John. No crying. No crying. No crying. Hey, we're here. That's the main thing now. We're here. We're alive and well. We're spreading the good word of your beautiful, beautiful movie, Hamnet is the film.

4:47It is a good barometer for whether you're a human being. If this movie works for you, you're a human being. Yeah. The organs are working. The heart is working. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Congratulations. Okay, so let's talk. I feel like Paul, first of all, this is like the reverse of our Gladiator press tour. This is the reverse of the Gladiator, yes. Because also, I spoke to Paul, it was like his last interview of that press store, essentially. I want to publicly apologize for how I felt like I was on death's door at the end of that. No, I loved it. It was like his exit interview. You were fantastic. But now we're at the beginning of this long journey for you guys.

5:21How are you feeling? You have each other to lead on through this madness. How's it going so far? I'm going to be like such a wifey, but you've just got like one hair just going. Thank you so much. I'll be looking at the whole interview. You're very good. If I didn't take that. Enough about Hamnet. I want to talk about his grooming problems. I'll be picking his nose now. Yeah, yeah. How are we feeling? Great. It's such a nice, it's just such a nice group of people. We all love each other, and it's been, I mean, it's always vulnerable sharing a film for the first time, no matter what it is. But I think how we made this, what it felt like making it, you know our hearts were kind of cracked open and so you were just a little bit more tender putting something out and as Chloe said it's like your baby's taking its first step it was so nice kind of putting it out in Telluride where you were in the mountains it was like a gentle letting go and now it's exciting.

6:25It's exciting, it's only been a week really, it's like been a fast week since it's the first audience to saw it. It's going to be interesting as you kind of go through, as more people in the world see this movie, because the nature of this film, and one of the many reasons I love film in general in a film like this is like, you connect your own personal experiences. You can't help it. The grief, the loss that we've all experienced. And they're gonna like, when they see you in the street, when people see you the rest of their lives, next couple of years, they're going to like connect, they're gonna bring their own stuff to us.

6:57Yeah. So I'm just warning you, I guess. There's gonna be some intensity. Yeah, we do. walking along and kind of debriefing this gorgeous woman was just like she lost her dad a few years ago but that's also I mean it's what I'm learning is like you kind of with a film like this you have to learn to contain the emotions that might come out for people after this you know it's not really about you right and you always hope to make something that will affect in many different ways whether that's you want to affect them to imagine themselves on the moon if they want to but the fact that this has brought such emotion and such a personal experience to people and given them an access to transcend through things that maybe are too hard to hold on their own is a gift.

7:54Oh my god yeah. so anybody's welcome to come up and cry we're going to start carrying around we're going to set up a little stall we've got my fanny pack here with my tissues for you, here I'm ready for you what's the wrap party like for something like Hamnet after you've gone through this crazy experience was it unique, was it kind of like a letting go of what was a singular experience in a special way or what how did you decompress together or apart We walked home, I remember. We did. We got locked. You got a line bike at the end of the night. No, we got a line bike over. We had a big party, first of all.

8:32Yeah, first of all. Yeah. Dancing, music. There was, yeah, DJ dancing, like mosh pit kind of. I think everybody was like, I need to go out. Jesus. Yeah. And almost maybe too much. Oh, it always ended up roughly being a disappointment. it's too it can be feel i'll tell you what was a great ending was at the last day in the globe the end of the show was gorgeous so we did a chloe does like a dance friday like every like we do after the big emotional scenes we do a huge dance off and so we like the crew they spent about three hours saying up the camera for this shot for the last dance off which included like the crew, 300 extras, all the like, everybody who was involved in it.

9:25We all danced to Rihanna's, what was it? We found love. We found love. Yeah, amazing. And I think this will come out at some point, this dance more. It is incredible because the whole like, the glow is hopping. We have seismic activity around this area. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the wrap party for Hamlet actually. And everybody's in like period costume as well. and like everybody with these amazing faces and all these like jumping up and down. So that felt like that kind of catharsis out of this. And then after the wrap party you and me we walked home. That was lovely. That was so nice. We walked it was about 2am we walked along the canal.

10:05Yeah. Yeah. I will say like talking like you know Chloe is such a singular human being filmmaker like seeing this at Telluride and she did this amazing thing which I guess she does with all of us each day, this like meditative kind of moment, which I'm so not that person generally, but Chloe can got me in. Like, I'm ready. How did you find it? Yeah. Again, like I said, like my, you know, I'm a cynical, horrible New Yorker, very practical. Like I don't do meditation or anything. I was like, oh, I could get with the Chloe Zhao app, like meditation app. Like I need this in my life. It like, it really added, I mean, I don't, I must've added something like, I don't know, Give me a sense of what she, the tenor she sets on set, because it clearly translates into the finished material, but just her as a presence, as a force on set and how that informed the film.

11:00That's a micro version of... We wouldn't do that every single morning, but it's kind of indicative of the way that she's able to curate an energy on set. Like she's able to sometimes we would do a form of meditation. Other times it would be through kind of the messages we would send each other in the morning or music. Music that we would send. I think what that moment is an example of is Chloe invites you into a world. Yeah, right. And we are in such a, you know, as humans, we are so addicted to a sensational experience that to actually stop and take a breath and recognize where you're about to go.

11:45Yeah. Takes a moment of consciousness or a breath to like get invite yourself into that world. And yeah. Yeah. And she's so sensitive like that. And that was shared between everybody, the crew, you know, to the point where we were all kind of working like an orchestra together. So the tone of what the moment was requiring of you was set by Chloe and how she led that. And it was never dogmatic. It was done with just... You will relax for me. You will meditate for me because that's not the way to do it. Okay, okay. I'm relaxed. Okay.

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15:55I think you both have said something approximately the same to me in that, like, the experience is what matters, right? The experience of making the film. The bonus is obviously what comes of it. This is a different side of it. But, like, it's about the journey. It's about what you guys get to do together on set, the collaborative nature. as you start to look back at this experience in what ways was this a unique experience whether it's the Chloe, Jau of it, the material working with each other what sets this apart from other brilliant work you guys have been a part of?

16:33Oh, well, many things for me I think sometimes like a story and somebody's like soul and a character and the people that you're working with just meet you at the right time of your life. You know, I don't think you can kind of generate that experience. It just is a bit of mercurial magic. And this felt like that in all, you know, the fact that Chloe met this book and then we met Chloe and Lucas and just where we all were as well at that moment of our lives. I feel like that was the kind of. Yeah, that's what made this this experience the way it was.

17:30But also, I think. I mean, we've both been very lucky to work with incredible directors and artists and crews and other actors. But I think what Chloe reminded me of anyway was the. That actually being an artist and being creative is the only thing that matters. Yeah. And that's something that is rare, more rare, like rarer in this industry more and more. And she is uncompromising as an artist. Her process is totally protected about what she wants to experience as an artist. And that is never at the consequence of a budget or going over time. We never had any of that experience because she was so clear about what was necessary for her to unravel the story.

18:24as a company, but also within herself. And it just, it was like a breath of fresh air and we ignited how tender it can be to work like this again. Yeah, because as you were, I mean, you guys have been privileged. You have worked with some amazing filmmakers that do cultivate really like collaborative environments, but that's not the norm. There's a, I mean, sadly, there are a lot of experiences where it's like time is money. And we're like, it's about just getting the shots of a day. and it sounds like someone like Chloe and some of the other filmmakers you've worked with, it's really about creating a vibe and an environment where you can explore all together and have the time and not the pressure, the inherent pressures of making a movie to find something truthful.

19:08Yeah. Totally. Like that's Chloe's modus operandi. It's like you would arrive, if something wasn't working, you never felt, oh, we're not going to make the day. I always felt we were going to make it. It was just we weren't sniffing in the right area yet. And if something didn't work or didn't serve the like aliveness in the scene, she would discard it and she would see, you know, I guess she's a curious artist who's looking for the most live moment that's there. She's not trying to build an ego ship around it. Yeah. Yes. she's trying to go more human which is I think scary or it's scary to be more human agreed especially this morning this morning can we all just be soulless robots and just not think or feel for a second this morning for the morning maybe I mean yeah I was saying before about like folks like connecting with it on a personal level I found myself like thinking about losses I've experienced and stuff watching this.

20:16I mean, do you go there? I imagine you guys must connect when you're, whether in the moment or preparing, and that's what it is about, I guess, connecting to your own personal experiences in some ways. Like where that's available to you, and then other times, I don't know about you, but sometimes you're imagining. Your imagination can be very powerful when you're trying. I I feel very lucky that I haven't lost a child, but your brain, as an actor, I feel a massive responsibility with this to kind of... We're playing and we're representing parents who've lost children, and I find that to be a great responsibility, and it's a tough place to kind of put your brain for two months, three months, four months, however long it takes.

21:12I didn't think about my dad. I did compatriots. That was hard that way. I don't really work like that. I like, for me, you know, you've got these brilliant people in front of you and little Jacoby's face and Paul's face and Emily's face. and I don't need anything else. Like, if anything, just try and live in that world. It's like the imagination of that. I don't need to bring my own shit into it. I'm kind of like, I can do that all by myself. You surprised Paul, I believe, by nearly punching him in the film. Is that a Paul Meskel special? Do you only do that for Paul? Would you do that with other co-stars?

22:00I'm not going to tell you. Then what's the point? so I was surprised you want to keep the rest of them on their toes yeah yeah I want people quaking in their boobs just like the broccoli I'm ready just in case

22:15on your end Paul was that like an exciting moment in a way like as an actor absolutely like so like we like we were talking about this yesterday like not for a second was I like concerned like I was just like in the best sense I was like if Jesse hits me in the face brilliant if she doesn't great like i just felt like we were at that point in the shoes we weren't really taught we never really spoke about what we're ever going to do and it just felt like a really collaborative feeling of like being totally in your body and out of your head which i feel like i'm constantly wrestling with as an actor where you're like trying to shut this little like that's the key that's the whole machine off and i found working with jesse was like probably the easiest I've ever had of just like being in my body yeah and kind of wordlessly just kind of walking around the set squeezing like each other's shoulder and leaving and then just going into a take yeah yeah almost ruins the face of you know America's sweetheart over here world's sweetheart Paul Meskel I think it would take a lot more

23:21um let's embarrass each other if an actor came to you and asked what it's like to work with the other if they were like give me give me the prep what's it like to work with Paul what's it like to work with Jessie, what would you say? Jessie, I, like, I have long admired Jessie, but, like, to work with her, to watch her work is one thing. To work with her was one of the most exhilarating experiences. She, like, like, Chloe was a huge leader on this, but, like, I would also say that, like, Jessie led us as a company of actors through it. It was, like, it's old-school leading actor behavior where she just took us all through it.

23:57and like the colours of her performance in this, the way she's kind of like uncompromising in terms of if something doesn't smell right to Jessie, she just will rigorously figure out a way through it. I just loved every single second working with her. She just broke my heart. Totally broke my heart. You don't have to reciprocate. You can just be silent and say nothing about that. I didn't really like working with her. I mean he's alright no I it honestly felt like and I think we both would say this that oh we're going to meet each other again and again in a kind of old school way like kind of it felt like Cassavetes in general we were like just in it's it's just the kinetic kind of trust and possibility.

24:58And again, you know, I knew Paul as a person. I didn't know him as well as I know him now. And I also had such respect for him in his work. But I think when you have that level of trust and you also feel like you can contain the biggest parts of each other and you meet that person as a as a partner on set. And it's not in your head. It's just like it's totally unknowable. You know, it's just this force where anything's possible. And Paul is a giant like he's got a giant capacity. And also, I think what makes Paul so kind of. why everybody falls in love with Paul and he moves people is his heart he's like got this tenderness which doesn't isn't like held by a masculine ego or like he will go to the ugliest most human most tender sensitive place while also being this giant of a man and when you get to spur sometimes literally with that you just it's like every kind of texture of what it is to be a human gets brought out and I really really hope this is just the first time we get to do this like I think it would be so thrilling to meet each other at different moments of our lives and and see where we can go next.

26:46You signed me up yesterday. I do want that. Thanks, Jesse. Paul, we've discussed your propensity to make films that are designed, it seems, to wreck people. Apparently so. I mean, it continues. I thought we were done, but we were just getting started, apparently. I think you've out-blue Valentine, blue Valentine at this point. Oh, I saw Derek's scene in France last night. Oh, yeah. I was like, oh. That must have been a long bit. Have you met Derek before? I have, I have. But like whenever I see him, I'm like. So where do we rank in terms of like the wrecking, the emotional, I don't know, the power of these films, like all the strangers, normal people, like what's the order of films they should watch if they want to have a good cry?

27:31I like, I don't know. I like, I probably start with normal people and then let them off, I say. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's probably something that I'm we spoke briefly about this the last time I think I'm drawn to watching stories like that I'm drawn to being in them I feel like that's what I want to say with the art that I want to be making it's like that's you know we spoke a bit about this it's like you have I don't really know how to articulate it but you like there's certain painters that you like because they have a certain style And I think that the more I'm doing it, the more I'm interested in playing with the style, but not necessarily trying to just paint like Jesse Buckley, because she paints like Jesse Buckley.

28:21I don't want to do my thing until I get bored of myself. The last time you were on the pod with Olivia, we were talking about James Bond. You were joking about you want just the one-line role as the Bond girl. Do you want to see this guy as a Bond in a Denis Villeneuve movie? That makes it a little more interesting. Yes, please. We all have to admit, right? As long as I can be the Bond girl and we can set it in Ireland. This is the next collaboration. Just did it. Can you imagine? Do you know my Bond girl? What's the one around? My Bond girl goes, James, it's me, the girl from the bar. Maybe I'll play James Bond, like how will you get out?

28:54Also, nobody outside of Ireland has any idea what I've just said. But I do. I had to slow the tape down and then I got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just do it very simple. Say it again, what did you say? James, it's me, the girl from the bar. What did you say? Hello, will you stop? We do stop. We do stop. We're workshopping it. I think it could work. I'm waiting for Denis.

29:20Who loves music festivals more? I know you're a big music festival person. Are you as well? I love a music festival. Okay. Big time, yeah. Can you rank them for me? I'm not a musical festival person. Like in the Glastonbury's, Coachella's. What's the vibe for each? Give me the dummy's guide to a music festival. I've never gone to Coachella. I've been, I'm gonna probably get stick for this. I don't like Coachella whatsoever. Okay. It's a bit like, bougie. Cancel. It's like a bougie. He's over, it's over. I'm so fucked. The world loved him and then it came to an end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just blew it all up.