In short
Spoiler special exit interview on the Stranger Things finale, focusing on episode structure, character fates, Eleven’s ambiguous ending, Vecna/Henry’s near-redemption, and plans for future spinoffs.
Guest backgrounds
Matt Duffer and Ross Duffer are the creators/showrunners of Stranger Things. They discuss writing decisions, production constraints (including COVID-era breaks), and actor involvement in shaping endings.
Key claims
The finale’s long epilogue was intentional to “marinate” in characters and capture the emotional transition out of childhood. They avoided heavy “bloodletting,” arguing death isn’t the show’s core. Eleven’s fate is left ambiguous by design: Mike’s theory is presented with evidence pointing both ways, and the writers couldn’t justify a fully happy, realistic continuation. Henry/Vecna redemption was considered but rejected as thematically “wrong” given his accumulated evil. The live-action spinoff will be an ensemble with new mythology, not a direct origin-story for the rock or Mind Flayer.
Notable examples
Return of the King-style epilogue; D&D game closing the childhood “door”; Steve/Jonathan resolution moment; Kali vs Hopper viewpoints; “Vakmal” unlocking the Season 1 door; Eddie cameo flashback not used; Henry’s mineshaft scene performance by Jamie.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOReflecting on Stranger Things Finale
0:00 to 0:30
The Duffer Brothers discuss their journey and the finale of Stranger Things.
“You know back to school is coming in fast.”
Reflecting on Stranger Things Finale
0:33 to 0:56
The Duffer Brothers discuss their journey and the finale of Stranger Things.
“Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling?”
Reflecting on Stranger Things Finale
3:40 to 4:28
The Duffer Brothers discuss their journey and the finale of Stranger Things.
“Stranger Things 5, mission accomplished.”
Exploring the Structure of the Finale
4:28 to 7:31
The Duffer Brothers explain the intentional structural choices in the finale.
“and it really struck me, like, everything you guys said, you did.”
Characters and Their Fates
7:31 to 9:46
Discussion on character deaths and the narrative choices made in the final season.
“And the reason we wanted to do that is to give ourselves the space to have, spend that much time with our characters on the other side of this without having it be a, you know, a three or four hour gargantuan finale.”
Audience Expectations and Surprises
9:46 to 11:08
The Duffer Brothers share insights on audience expectations and their choices.
“And, you know, it's not to me what the show is or what the show is about.”
Audience Expectations and Surprises
12:48 to 13:58
The Duffer Brothers share insights on audience expectations and their choices.
“And a fun place for me to reset is with my closet.”
Audience Expectations and Surprises
14:04 to 15:35
The Duffer Brothers share insights on audience expectations and their choices.
“And then you're looking at huge out-of-pocket costs.”
Audience Expectations and Surprises
15:39 to 16:01
The Duffer Brothers share insights on audience expectations and their choices.
“Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance.”
The Ambiguity of Eleven's Fate
16:09 to 19:18
Explore the themes and discussions surrounding Eleven's character development.
“Okay, because this, you have opened yourself up to a conversation for the rest of your life or whenever you want to be definitive about it.”
Show all 20 chapters
Redemption Arc for Vecna
19:19 to 24:10
Delve into the complexities of Vecna's character and potential redemption.
“And I haven't seen, I've never seen, I saw Wicked, I haven't seen Wicked for Good, and I never saw the musical.”
Character Fates and Actor Involvement
24:11 to 28:01
Learn how actor input shaped character conclusions in the series.
“Do you imagine you'll direct any episodes?”
Reflections on the Finale and Casting Choices
28:01 to 34:32
Discover the behind-the-scenes insights on casting decisions and emotional scenes from the finale.
“Because, Josh, man, I just, there was so much, this, my head is in a, like, I really shouldn't have done any of these post-mortem interviews.”
Reflections on the Finale and Casting Choices
35:06 to 35:34
Discover the behind-the-scenes insights on casting decisions and emotional scenes from the finale.
“Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto.”
Creative Risks and Nostalgia in Storytelling
35:34 to 42:00
Explore the creative risks taken in the finale and the nostalgic themes addressed.
“Like, what felt like the biggest creative risk that you took in this fight?”
The Hopeful Ending of E.T.
42:00 to 42:40
Discussion on the hopeful ending of E.T. and its thematic parallels.
“the beginning and and eating pizza and so forth and then it goes up on the roof and you see elliot's you know, put up some antenna to connect again with E.T., right?”
Unanswered Questions from Stranger Things
42:40 to 43:32
Exploring unanswered questions about key plot points in Stranger Things.
“and you guys for all day, but I would want to ask some burning other questions that people have brought up.”
Relationships and Their Outcomes
43:32 to 46:08
Analysis of character relationships and their potential futures in the series.
“So the only the only moments of Eddie we see are flashbacks to things we've already seen.”
Hints at Future Projects
46:08 to 49:18
Discussion about future projects related to the Stranger Things franchise.
“but they're, they're, they're bonded for life.”
Reflections on the Series Conclusion
49:18 to 53:24
Reflections on the conclusion of Stranger Things and the importance of its ending.
“So I think it's, we're trying something a little bit different and I were excited about it because it allows us to tell new stories.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Ross Duffer:Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today.
0:30Matt Duffer:This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. What are you going to say to folks about Eleven's fate, whether she lived or not.
1:01Ross Duffer:I'll tell them to listen to this podcast and we'll give our answer.
1:07Matt Duffer:Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.
1:15Matt Duffer:Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, it's a Stranger Things spoiler spectacular with Matt and Ross Duffer. Here we go, guys. a very special edition of Happy Say I Confused. I know I say that a lot, but come on. How often does a show, a phenomenon like Stranger Things end and this kind of opportunity come around where we can really do a deep dive? I know you folks love the spoiler specials, whether we've done them for Superman, the last season of Stranger Things, et cetera. And this one definitely lives up to the hype because Matt and Ross really spilled a lot on character endings, reasons for what they did.
1:57Matt Duffer:the ideas they entertained that they didn't pursue, the future, the spinoff. There's a lot here. If you're a Stranger Things fan, this one is going to be a special one for you. Before we get to that, a couple quick reminders. Remember, patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused. That's your place for all early access, bonus materials, discount codes, patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused. We have two new New York events kicking off the year. January 6th in New York City, Tom Hiddleston, 92nd Street Y Be there, he's always a gem And then January 7th Jennifer Lawrence First time guest on the podcast I've done a lot with Jennifer over the years She's one of the best interviews out there I have very high hopes this will be A very memorable episode of Happy, Sad, Confused I have the utmost confidence in that Tickets are going fast for both of these Link is in the show notes, you know what to do Okay, not much more preamble By the way, if you're watching this on video My internet is so spotty I'm out of sync, I apologize I don't know what's going on Anyway, doesn't matter Ross and Matt Duffer They came out of nowhere Nobody knew who they were a decade ago And now they are at the top of the heap Riding high off of the end of Stranger Things Very well received by critics and audiences alike I certainly loved the finale And this is a full-on deep dive exit interview, spoiler special, whatever you want to call it.
3:25Matt Duffer:So last warning, make sure you've seen Stranger Things 5. Make sure you've seen the finale because there's a lot here to unpack. Without any further ado, here's Ross Duffer. Here's Matt Duffer talking the end of Stranger Things. Enjoy. All right, Matt. All right, Ross. You guys ready for this? This is what it's all about.
3:45Ross Duffer:Yeah, let's do it, man. Let's go.
3:47Matt Duffer:Here we go, guys. Stranger Things 5, mission accomplished. congratulations guys uh this has been a long long road to say the least and this is the exit interview you ready to let it all hang out yeah man let's do it let's uh we're ready
4:03Ross Duffer:we're not going to give you an answer though whether as we'll ever be to 11 though we're not going to give you an answer there but otherwise we'll do our best
4:11Matt Duffer:don't start don't start from a negative place i've got 45 minutes to wear you down by the end It's going to be like a waterboarding. You're going to spill it all. I was saying to Ross before, I was listening back to our last conversation, not our last, but the spoiler conversation we did after Stranger Things 4, and it really struck me, like, everything you guys said, you did. I mean, you talked about, you know, coming back to original groupings, you talked about potentially doing the finale in theaters, you talked about a long kind of epilogue or a turn of the king-esque structure. So, I mean, it does feel like you kept to the plan.
4:50Matt Duffer:Is that safe to say that, like, there weren't major swings?
4:55Ross Duffer:Yeah, roughly. I mean, we had, because, you know, if you remember, I mean, season four was in the midst of COVID. So we had a massive, massive break where we, and we actually had time. We had finished writing season four, and we started to work on season five. So we had an outline for it. It changed radically, the outline, because after season four came out, we looked back at the outline and we thought a lot could be different and improved. Holly was not in that outline, for instance. But the rough shape of it, and especially the ending, was all laid out.
5:36Matt Duffer:It's interesting. I was looking back. I was thinking back to Return of the King. Return of the King's, you know, epilogue is about 28, 30 minutes. You out Returned of the King Return of the King. Congratulations.
5:48Ross Duffer:I actually did not know that. I didn't know that, no. Hey, but, you know, if you think about it, we're longer, quite a bit longer than the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Because what are you, 40, 50 hours? And even with the extended, they're 10? Yeah. What are they with the extended? Yeah. Something like that. 10-11, yeah, yeah.
6:08Matt Duffer:But it did strike me in watching the finale. It's an excellent finale, first of all. Get that out of the way. Like, you guys really nailed it, and I'm not alone in saying that. But structurally, it is a very interesting finale because, you know, the action, I haven't looked at literally the time code, but the action kind of ends, like, what, 75, 80 minutes in. Right. And then it is really a long kind of, like, return to roots, no supernatural, just, like, just really marinating in the characters. Yeah. And it's so satisfying for an audience, but talk to me a little bit about like, did you have any conflict, any inner, I don't know, worry about the structure of that last episode?
6:47Matt Duffer:Or was it sort of like, this is just what it demands, what we've built, how it has to end?
6:54Ross Duffer:No, it was always the intention to have that, you know, long of an epilogue, I think. You know, because ultimately at the end of the day, this is, despite all the supernatural goings on, it is a coming of age story. we obviously also have a lot of characters and we wanted to spend time with them so we were very in the in even outlining building the season we were very cautious to give ourselves the space to do that and it's structured very differently for that reason than than season four that's why all the planning the build up and all that's in seven so we can just start at a full sprint which is different than we've done on any other finale.
7:33Ross Duffer:And the reason we wanted to do that is to give ourselves the space to have, spend that much time with our characters on the other side of this without having it be a, you know, a three or four hour gargantuan finale. We wanted to try to keep it around two hours.
7:53Matt Duffer:Before we get into the 11 of it all, which is a big part of the conversation, I mean, you guys know, like, there has been this obsession. It's not unique to Stranger Things, but at the end of every show, it's like, who's going to make it? Who's going to die? The whole thing. And there was even some of your cast members at some points were talking like, people got to go down, etc. Here's my question. Did any of the actors actually come to you and say, you know what? I'd be cool with offing me in the final season, final episode.
8:24Ross Duffer:I don't remember, Ross. Do you? I don't think so. No. Really? No, no one was like, no one did a Harrison Ford Return of the, like, just kill me. No. No, because I think they love these characters too and they feel passionate about them. So I don't think a single one came up to us and said, kill me.
8:52Matt Duffer:You have said, look, this is not Westeros, this is Hawkins. And so it didn't demand that kind of like bloodletting at the end. But you also have said, you know, in the writer's room, all bets are off. Everything's discussed. Everything's on the table.
9:04Ross Duffer:I mean, why wouldn't you? I mean, by the I mean, the writer's room, you go over. I mean, it's not just character death. I mean, you explore everything because why wouldn't you? Because I guess as much as possible, you want to you want to explore every possible avenue in terms of where the season and the show could go. And you try to land on what you know, what feels right. I mean, like the percentage of time spent on talking about death and death of characters is really small, you know, because that's not, you know, that's not what the show has ever been about. You know, it's an adventure, an adventure coming of age story.
9:40Ross Duffer:We could definitely killed some people. So it's just not not not what we wanted to do. And, you know, it's not to me what the show is or what the show is about. So there wasn't like a fall that. go ahead ross i was saying you have to follow like you follow through so you run it through and if you and you do that and you go to the end and you see how it affects the narrative and the story and the themes of that story and um generally when we did it um you know it it sort of dismantled the whole thematic structure um of stranger things and i think when we were looking at various you know the finales of long running shows that landed the plane, the ones that did it the best really just stay true to what they were.
10:30Ross Duffer:And so whatever the noise is or, you know, you know, bloodlust, like you have to, at the end of the day, you have to go, no, let's just, we need to be true to what, what Stranger Things is and always was from season one on.
10:46Matt Duffer:I don't want to feel like you to feel like I'm obsessed with death, But like, there's not like there's not like a 48 hour period where you guys fell in love with one idea of one death that felt like, no, let's at least go down this road. Seriously. Really? Yeah.
11:01Ross Duffer:No, we went through literally you go through every character and you talk about it. We did. We definitely did that. We did that exercise. and um when once you go through that you realize that um uh it was it was wrong it was wrong for the show and the story of these characters and um this this coming of age story that um ultimately
11:21Matt Duffer:we're telling the the steve of it all took on a life of its own over the years like you i don't even know where that came from yeah but but you must have been playing with the expectations by
11:34Ross Duffer:the end no i mean like that moment oh for sure yeah i don't know like first of all ross and i you know we we did want and we're always trying to build towards a um you know a makeup between and bromance a little bit of a bromance between steve and jonathan and then that led to the idea of him saving steve but yes i'm sure there was a part of us going well you know this is going to to really mess with people who are and then you and then you see that moment in theaters with a crowd and it was fucking incredible uh in the reveal when it's jonathan i mean the crowd went nuts it was so it's it's it is fun um but yes ultimately also it gave us a fun moment but also allowed us to um sort of those were the two characters moving into the finale i mean outside of like Eleven and Hopper, which is more complex.
12:31Ross Duffer:But Steve and Jonathan were two of the characters that hadn't really resolved their differences.
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16:08Matt Duffer:Okay, we can spend a lot of time on the Eleven of it all. Let's dive in. Okay, because this, you have opened yourself up to a conversation for the rest of your life or whenever you want to be definitive about it. Like, you were going to be asked, what's real, what's not? Is Mike's story true? Are you prepared to be accosted at Starbucks day to day? And what are you going to say to folks about Eleven's fate, whether she lived or not?
16:34Ross Duffer:I'll tell them to listen to this podcast and we'll give our answer. No, I mean, you know, obviously, you know, we left it ambiguous for, you know, for a reason. I mean, we want the audience to be in the shoes of that Mike and the whole group are in, which is it's up to you to choose whether to believe or not. Right. I mean, there's evidence that could point in both directions. So that's the intent of the scene. And I can also get into, there's a couple of things. You can talk about it thematically. There's this element of Eleven representing the more fantastical elements of the show. I mean, she's, you know, super coward, you know, the upside down, the monsters, like if she existed, she would, you know, with them, she would still be part of like that, the fantasy and the magic and the would still be a part of their lives.
17:42Ross Duffer:And to us, you know, in a way that represents childhood and imagination and wonder. And that is leaving with them as they transition from young adults to adulthood and closing the door on that part of their lives. So we like that from a thematic point of view. And as far as Eleven and the character of Eleven, that was really the initial conversation that we were having is from a realistic standpoint. How does she continue to exist in the world? And we had that debate and have characters having that debate throughout the season. It's like, what could that look like? Is a happy ending possible? Like a fully happy ending where she's like married to Mike and they're living a perfectly happy life and the government has completely laid off them and they've ended their lab and their experiment.
18:40Ross Duffer:And we just couldn't figure out a way for that to work. We love Eleven so much. So, you know, we have, but then there's Hopper's point of view, right, which is also extremely valid. So we had Kali representing the point of view I just talked about. And then we had Hopper representing the other point of view, which is also very valid. And I guess the question was, is there an in-between for her? And that's what Mike lands on at the end. And his answer is yes, and that's what she chose. And whether the audience believes that or not is up to them. And we like leaving it up to them.
Read the full transcript
19:18Matt Duffer:I like to think that after having seen, I don't know if you've seen Wicked for Good, she's in the same place that Elphaba is at the end of Wicked for Good. Someone told me that.
19:25Ross Duffer:Yeah, Sean was telling me that. And I haven't seen, I've never seen, I saw Wicked, I haven't seen Wicked for Good, and I never saw the musical. So I did not know that. But that's cool.
19:39Matt Duffer:Hey, great minds. So who knows definitively? You guys have definitive answers in your head about what Hurt actually is.
19:48Ross Duffer:So you two write going, well, I don't know what the answer is. This is ambiguous. I mean, you're writing from a point of view of understanding what the truth is, right? And the reality is. But it's just so. So, yeah, Ross and I know and we were just talking to Millie about it. But I don't you know, it's just I think it takes away the power of the ending. If you tell people what what you were thinking as you were writing.
20:17Matt Duffer:that so what so millie millie knows definitively too does she have a take on this yeah yeah i mean
20:22Ross Duffer:literally i we were texting with her 30 minutes ago yeah got it yeah i was gonna say he was not gonna tell you she's not gonna tell you either if you want to try to get by her yeah don't waste
20:33Matt Duffer:your time is there's no one no he's my he's he's the best bet at this point obviously oh that is
20:41Ross Duffer:I got to tell no no no Millie swore herself to secrecy you better watch that Millie and Noah are very close so that's thank you for reminding us Josh we were going to tell her to I'm not even joking I'm literally going to text her right now
20:56Matt Duffer:I was going to say I was going to say is there anybody we want to get on the line to loop in here I was talking to Joe the other day he was like I want in on the postmortem should we get somebody on the phone
21:06Ross Duffer:if the proper question comes up we will Okay, fair enough. I literally do not tell Noah.
21:14Matt Duffer:That's amazing.
21:19Matt Duffer:So the redemption or near redemption of Henry, of Vecna, how close did we come to a full-on Darth Vader redemption arc for him? Can someone that's done so much really be redeemed? Did you explore that in the writer's room?
21:34Ross Duffer:Yeah, we initially talked about giving him a moment where he can turn against the mind flayer and help them defeat it. And I think ultimately, again, as you start to play that out, it feels wrong and we didn't believe it. He is so far gone at this point. He's done so much evil that for him to turn around, even if there is part of him inside, deep inside, that is innocent, that innocent child, I you know I think it's just it's been buried beneath so much violence and anger over the years and in terms of ambiguity we did want to leave it up a little bit to the audience too in terms of Henry of course is saying he is in control as well as the mind player how much of that you know we leave up to the audience but I think you see a lot of it play out in Jamie's face in that final scene in the mineshaft he's just incredible at conveying all of these different emotions and layers.
22:39Matt Duffer:Since the finale has run, you've kind of hinted, more than hinted, you've said that the connective tissue to this spinoff that you're developing is in this backstory, is in this scene, this kind of origin story for Henry. So what are you willing to say about what we see in that sequence with this mysterious, is it the same suitcase at the end of Pulp Fiction? I don't know if it's the same stuff in there.
23:00Ross Duffer:um what if it was the same we'd have a stronger glow of our face for the same question yeah it's the same wait sorry i have an update from millie i used to just have i said don't tell no and she said of course not so she knows she knows better she knows she knows um we all know we all know and love noah um but no we we do not trust him right with secrets related to the show um so the that you know i mean there are a couple obviously there's some some things that we don't fully answer in the show i mean the briefcase and the rock and the scientists and all that being a big part yeah so that you know that's the one you know we had talked about there's an there's something in there that um is going to hit it with a spinoff was i didn't want to have to talk about it but i got pinned down so hard that we're just talking about it but anyway that's that's the part that we will um dive into in in the spinoff although and i just want to emphasize because i just don't want people's expectations to be um incorrect which is that it's not you know a spinoff about the you know exactly focused on the origin of the rock or focused on the origin of the mayan flair it's there are explanations but it really is its own story with its own mythology
24:23Matt Duffer:the yes in terms of the the spinoff i we know very little beyond what you just said but like is it is it another ensemble is it a young cast can you say anything like that
24:35Ross Duffer:um yeah it's going to be in it's going to be an ensemble again i think um ultimately it is its own story in new characters of mythology but a lot of the um the style of storytelling that we've done for 10 years now on Stranger Things, that is something that will carry over even though it is a completely new story.
24:58Matt Duffer:Do you imagine you'll direct any episodes? You're not showrunning it, right? You're
25:04Ross Duffer:exactly. So we're co-creating it. I can't talk too much more about it, Josh, because I'm going to get in trouble. So I think all this stuff is going to get announced. There's a lot of exciting things I wish I could talk about. But and, you know, you know, it's just still in early stages. And hopefully at some point more of this will be will be announced. Well, we're going to be, you know, we'll be heavily involved, even if we're not, you know, we're not going to be show running and directing. We'll see. But I think ultimately, you know, we're going to be there from from beginning to end of the process.
25:42Matt Duffer:Okay, so let's talk a little bit more about some of the fates of your other characters. I love what you've talked about, like, that you really, you involved the actors. You wanted them to feel like, you know, some ownership, some skin in the game. They have a lot of skin in the game. They've created these characters alongside you. Who had the strongest POV? Who really impacted most, you think, where each of these characters ended up in the end?
26:09Ross Duffer:The... I don't, God, who impacted the most where they ended up? I mean, obviously over the years, just working with these, whether it's Joe Keery and where Steve ended up, obviously shaped it. I mean, I think they all did. Noah with Will, Finn with Mike. I mean, everyone did to a certain extent, but I think there was a level of trust and understanding as we went into this final season. And we certainly talked to everyone and we definitely talked to everyone, you know, as we were working on the finale writing it amidst production as we typically do unless there's a pandemic and uh and just figuring out where people saw their characters um ending up at the end of this so in terms of the you know uh the colleges they went to the flash forwards all of that was those were based on um conversations that we had with all the actors because obviously these characters mean so much to matt and i but But it means they mean just as much to these actors.
27:13Ross Duffer:So we wanted to make sure that everyone felt like they were ending up in the right place.
27:18Matt Duffer:Did anyone make a pitch that just didn't work, that was fun, but just didn't work in the grand scheme of things?
27:25Ross Duffer:Well, I think Brett wanted Murray to be like a private eye in Chicago. That didn't make it in. But maybe he is. I think that's pretty funny. I mean, that would be a CODA thing that we just didn't, you know, we didn't include. Finn really wanted a gun, and we compromised by giving him a flare gun. And I don't, you know, beyond that, I can't, I can't, I, you know, I can't think of it. I mean, obviously, this would all been like two years ago, right? Anything didn't I want to die, Ross? That's the only one I'm trying to think. Or am I making that up? I don't know. I think you're making that up.
28:04Matt Duffer:I don't know why he would make it up. Seems like a strange thing to make up.
28:09Ross Duffer:Because, Josh, man, I just, there was so much, this, my head is in a, like, I really shouldn't have done any of these post-mortem interviews. I'm not in a good place. Like, why the hell we did any, why the hell we did any of them yesterday is beyond me.
28:23Matt Duffer:That's the best time to talk to you when you're totally fried.
28:26Ross Duffer:I'm like, fried, I was like, yeah, I'm getting over the flu. you know so anyone mad at any answers we gave yesterday just give me a break
28:37Matt Duffer:no never uh that's not how the internet works you know that no joyce and hopper it was always meant to be it was always going to work out right there was
28:46Ross Duffer:that that was no that was yeah they were going to go to enzo's they were going to it was there was going to be yeah i think yeah there was always going to be a proposal so forth the idea of the The relocation, doing a callback to Montauk, you know, if people don't know, the show was originally set in Montauk. So it was just a little nod and a wink for people who are super familiar with the show and its origins. That was new, but otherwise that was in place for a very long time, as it was a scene of the kids playing D &D in the basement.
29:19Matt Duffer:I think you've talked about before, but since now this is kind of we're looking all the way back. and David said this to me before, like he's like, I know for a fact I was not the first choice for Hopper. I don't know like if you, how close you came, but you know, it's been said that like you and McGregor and Rockwell were on your list. Like, did you come actually close to casting either of those guys for Hopper back in the day? Um, man.
29:44Ross Duffer:I mean, yeah, I mean, we, we, we did, we did, we did go out to certain people. You have to remember though, at the time, true detective hadn't even come out yet and so the idea of movie stars committing to a seven year television run was really rare so it's happening more now but even now they tend to just commit to the limited series so the big coop was you know the big thing we landed the the person we landed was Winona and that was hard, you know, I mean, Winona was because she grew up in an era where that was not something that you did as a movie star. Yeah. And I think it was, it was a really hard decision for her to make, but she loved the character.
30:34Ross Duffer:She just learned,
30:34Matt Duffer:she just learned last year what a streaming services. It took her a few.
30:38Ross Duffer:Exactly. Exactly. So, so that was, that was a major, that was a major gift for us i do i don't remember ewan mcgregor i do remember going out to sam um sam rockwell i love well i love him and maybe we'll get to work together um in the future but i just i do think it's like indiana jones and like tom sellick turning down you know indiana or whatever or you know michael j fox being whatever third choice for back to the future Like it just this stuff works out. I mean, can you imagine it without David? Like, I'm so relieved. These actors is incredible as they are passed on it. You know, I'm so relieved.
31:21Matt Duffer:I do. I do. Speaking of Winona, the you fucked with the wrong family moment. Right. Is it is delicious. Is it what did she enjoy? Oh, that moment. She found out she was getting that.
31:34Ross Duffer:She finally got to use that axe. Yeah, she came right. I mean, I think that's the first, her line rating is take one, I believe. I mean, she just came like ready to chop this head off. She was just dialed in when we finally got to that moment. It was very, very satisfying.
31:54Matt Duffer:You talked a little bit about the final scene in the basement, but I do want to hear it straight from you guys, because this is the idea that's been around for a long, long time. Not necessarily the passing of the baton to the next generation, but literally closing the door on that D &D game. Yes. Does a lot of that scene honor what you guys thought of eight plus years ago? Yeah.
32:17Ross Duffer:That was the idea. That was the idea is the final D &D game. And then yeah, ultimately letting go and saying bye to their childhood and shutting that door. That's been that, yeah, that's been in there and planned since we realized that the show was going to go on for more than one season.
32:35Matt Duffer:um that that's always been the plan and one of the more emotional days in the course of the series
32:41Ross Duffer:has to be shooting that yes that was yeah it was definitely the most emotional day in the last shot um that we ever did is them putting the putting their dnd it was like behind the shelf and they're each putting one by one putting their their books away and i think um just knowing that it was the last shot knowing that what that meant both for the actors and the characters um was yeah everyone
33:09Matt Duffer:everyone was crying did they get their their dnd books they get the individual books is that part of the the goodbye package oh man i don't i don't think they did get those books did they ross i
33:22Ross Duffer:don't know we gave everyone sort of like a um a key prop to that was specific to each of their characters like joe got joe got the bat winona got the got the axe millie got her original um dress uh from season one so we sort of picked like a key proper costume and and framed it and gave it to each of the actors but i don't know what happened to the books that's a really good question i remember ross did we end up actually being able to give nat the gun because i know there was pushback on that because you were i think we did it's a rubber gun i think we gave her the gun it's a rubber gun to be clear it's not yeah but no there was a oh or oh is that was that the compromise i think we wanted to give her the actual gun but they only let us give her the
34:10Matt Duffer:rubber gun i think everybody else give out guns to all their young cast on the way out like get a
34:16Ross Duffer:revolver like nat accidentally shoots someone uh in her new york apartment and then sues netflix I don't know what the concern was
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35:32Matt Duffer:As you look back at this season, the finale, was there a creative choice, a decision that you were excited by, but also were worried whether the audience would be with you? Like, what felt like the biggest creative risk that you took in this fight?
35:47Ross Duffer:I mean, 11. You know, I mean, absolutely. the i mean and then you know for all the reasons we outlined then and mostly for you know the reason and and you know some people are i knew some people were going to be upset about and some people are upset about it you know because of what she went through and it's you know it is it is painful and i mean it's painful um for us but i said yeah but this notion that you know if mike's theory is true that she's not you know she's not happy or incapable of living a happy life like like she's gonna sit in a dark hole crying um you know it's not you know not accurate she's actually able would be able to um live in peace where she's not being hunted But the big thing, too, she's sacrificing herself to protect her friends and family and, you know, or found family and also to protect what happened to her from happening to any other child in the future.
37:00Matt Duffer:It is.
37:01Ross Duffer:And I think I see no point. Go ahead. Yeah. No, I was just going to say, you know, we obviously looked at a lot of endings to big stories. and Lord of the Rings being a hugely important and influential one for us. And I remember reading that really young and of course seeing the movies in high school. And there was part of me at the time that there was some disappointment. Like I wanted Frodo just to come back and just party and celebrate with his friends. And Return of the Jedi, you cut to black and I'm just cheering. and it's obviously much more complicated and bittersweet than that ultimately and that's the ending that's that sticks with me all these years later and i as i grow older i the more and more i respect it and i think you know sometimes yeah the best innings are there there sometimes can be something bittersweet about them and there can be some ambiguity and i think that's what we ultimately wanted to do with the final scene of Stranger?
38:04Ross Duffer:I mean, we wanted, mostly it was about you know, it's not about plot, it's about this was our goal, what our focus was, which is capturing the feel it's all about capturing a feeling which is capturing the feeling of what it felt like to leave childhood and your childhood friends behind and what it feels like to become an adult and what what what leaves your life at that point in time like what does that passage feel like that that that was the focus of the finale right yeah i mean the focus of the finale is not mythology the focus of finale is emotion and feeling and just capturing and bottling what that felt like it's sort of us grappling with um and and perhaps you know sort of our nostalgia for childhood and just the sadness of leaving that behind but also this feeling of happiness because you can you know think back on it and you can tap back into it whenever you want and also the joy of seeing a new generation of kids be able to experience it like having a kid of my own now seeing them have those same experiences, having that kind of boundless imagination, experiencing movies and actually fully believing what they're seeing as opposed to being jaded and analyzing camera angles, you know, like, and lighting and blocking.
39:44Ross Duffer:You know, there's something just so beautiful and innocent about that time in your life. And it just, you can never recapture it. It's like a drug you try to, you know, it's just you try to get that same high and you never can quite get there. I think it's like why so many of us are where we are now in the entertainment business is just trying to freak. Chase and whatever that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that we had when we were younger and you do every once in a while. It's just and it feels amazing. It's just so much harder, I think. to get now um and the internet if anything is making it even harder um i think well i was
40:31Matt Duffer:stripped back all all your knowledge all you know too much there's too much cynicism all these layers and yeah i do think i i do think i mean i was watching when i was watching the finale i thought of like the comp which has been there from the start of like l to et and like that emotional ending of like like et was a change agent for elliot and and a transitional point for elliot that's one of the most emotional like endings of anything in the history of of film and i think
41:01Ross Duffer:that's maybe too good of that in terms of my favorite last shot it might be my favorite last shot of any movie i mean i'm just unbelievable which wasn't it was supposed to be the last shot by the way and i think it was axon yeah was it there was a did he did spielberg shoot that i think he did yeah he did yeah i think so and i think that's what's interesting it's like there is there is a much more definitive ending to et where they're contacting him again and i think but it's so much more powerful to leave that open um for for audiences to tell that story themselves if they want to but not to actually just you know and and so we absolutely talked about that obviously as well as a lord of the rings i mean those are two major references yeah right so like it's it just you know just be super clear and maybe i'm wrong this is what i remember i believe and and i don't know if you know josh or whatever but like that it does go full circle in et they're playing they're playing um they're they are playing dnd again just like the beginning and and eating pizza and so forth and then it goes up on the roof and you see elliot's you know, put up some antenna to connect again with E.T., right?
42:15Ross Duffer:So it ends on this very hopeful note. And so the equivalent of that would be Mike having, getting some sort of sign from L that maybe they'll be able to meet up again one day. And it's just, you know, E.T. to me, Spielberg made the exact right call to leave that up in the air and to close on that final shot of Elliot as E.T. leaves. It's just so much more onion, I think.
42:45Matt Duffer:I could talk about E.T. and you guys for all day, but I would want to ask some burning other questions that people have brought up. Let me throw a few at you. A lot of people want to know about who unlocked the door in season one, episode one, let the Demogorgon in definitively. Say now.
43:02Ross Duffer:Yeah, I mean, that was, Because that's Vakmal using his psionic abilities through the demo.
43:12Matt Duffer:Was there ever a consideration of an Eddie cameo flashback anything in this final?
43:20Ross Duffer:No. No. No, because what a performance Joe gave. It's just going to absolutely take away from it. You know, so it felt, you know, and also the whole story is about Dustin stories about grieving Eddie. So the only the only moments of Eddie we see are flashbacks to things we've already seen. And that was always the plan. There was there was never any discussion in bringing Eddie back.
43:50Matt Duffer:Some some relationship status questions. Oh, what happened to Robin and Vicky? Did it work out? Did it not work out?
43:57Ross Duffer:I mean, it's definitely implied that it did not work out right. I know either way, like, but, you know, certain things are open to interpretation. I mean, they're at least they're having issues. You know, you know, Robin says the thing about overbearing significant others. So that's, you know, whether they're whether it's rocky and or they're taking a break from each other or they broke it up. But by the way, like when how many couples do you know that, you know, were in high school that when they went to different colleges, stayed together, it's like zero, zero. So the odds are bad. The odds are bad.
44:41Ross Duffer:Max and Lucas. Yeah, it's not zero because Max and Lucas, I believe. I know, but that is like a one in a million like. Oh, because that's the exception. True luck. Max and Lucas, yeah. I mean, you see that, you know, I know it's Mike saying what's going to happen, but that is, you know, that is real. Their love is just too pure, too strong.
45:04Matt Duffer:And Hopper and Joyce, they're solid. This is life partners now. It's going to work out?
45:10Ross Duffer:It's going to work out. I can't imagine it not working out. And Joyce, she's finally going to get out of Hawkins, for real. it's gonna be it's gonna be cool they finally get to montauk where you're gonna shoot the show 10 years ago they never got to shoot that's right just couldn't afford it nancy nancy's not getting
45:31Matt Duffer:back together with jonathan though that's not that's probably not likely to happen i mean you
45:35Ross Duffer:don't know i mean they're they're they love each other right i mean you even see that look between them on on the roof it's it's less about like they need time apart like nancy needs time to find herself jonathan needs time to find himself they're in different schools it doesn't mean that they can't come back together and we just we we don't know and i don't i don't want to answer definitively one way or the other i mean we don't know we end the show before that happens but they're, they're, they're bonded for life. And there's a deep love, you know, between each other. That's why I do, you know, love the breakup scene because it is a, it is a, it is a breakup scene, but, and, but there's this deep love between them.
46:22Ross Duffer:That's never going to go away. They truly deeply love each other. So the question of, you know, could they reconnect and, and, and end up married a hundred percent, we just don't know. Or do they find other life partners and just remain the best friends. I don't know. I mean, those are two distinct possibilities.
46:42Matt Duffer:I know you said there are no cut scenes, but you did say that there's an extended version of that rooftop.
46:48Ross Duffer:Yeah, but it's mostly just them talking more about Jonathan's movie. It's nice. There's a 10-minute riff on Jonathan's movie. Yeah, we made up all that on the day with the teens and we just had so much fun with it. We were fucking around. If there's ever going to be any sort of continuation with the characters, we were like, let's just go make this stupid, shitty, you know, consumer movie with the teens. You know, shoot it on 16 millimeter. But I doubt that will ever happen. We'd only need like$100 ,000 from Netflix or something.
47:25Matt Duffer:Some folks have spotted this callback to the Dark Crystal poster for the Abyss. That's an accident? Yeah.
47:36Ross Duffer:I mean, it's not saying this stuff and start taking credit for it. Just take credit for it. I agree. I agree. I know. I saw they pointed it out. I thought it was. I think it's I think it's awesome. Listen, I don't know. But, Josh, I mean, truly, I don't know how much of this is subconscious.
47:51Matt Duffer:Right.
47:52Ross Duffer:Right. I mean, because this stuff was all a big part of our childhood, as was Dark Crystal. So are you like kind of dribbling from it without even realizing it? I don't. I mean, maybe I don't. I truly don't know. I mean, we obviously love Dark Crystal. We obviously were staring at that poster very recently. We just had it in the show. It's in Mike's room. So it's not inconceivable. I'm just saying it wasn't something in the room where we said, let's make it look like the Dark Crystal. Because, you know, really it was, you know, what would the mind flare look like folded up? You know, that's where it came from.
48:29Ross Duffer:And our concept artists worked that out.
48:31Matt Duffer:All right, I'm going to let you go. And a couple more if you guys will indulge me. we know about the spinoff you guys are getting serious about. We know obviously about the play, which is exceptional. People should check it out. I've seen it a couple of times. You've hinted at something else, though. You've hinted at, is there another Stranger Things project that is yet unannounced on the animated show we know about? But is there something else cooking that we just don't know about? Yes.
48:58Ross Duffer:Yes, but it's not the one. And I don't even know why you. Huh? I don't know why you tease this. yeah there is there is something else so i don't want to be like there's nothing else when there is something else and it's super rad um i just can't talk about it's not it's not what people are probably going to think it is so i don't know but is it a different medium are we talking video game are we talking no it's not a video i wish it was a video game no no i'm not i i wish there was also a video game let me let me rephrase i we've tried josh we've tried um um i know i you know it's rad it'll be announced at some point um but the big big thing is the live action spinoff and that's um um something we're going to really start working on on monday how how do you equate
49:47Matt Duffer:like is there a comp for a universe you're building out like we've seen obviously lots of whether it's star wars where the rings dc marvel like is like in how you're envisioning how to build out a stranger things universe that's that's an appropriate comp in your mind or no
50:04Ross Duffer:it's it's hard because most of the big um franchises that you look at whether it's yeah whether it's marvel or or or star wars are just a it's a very different beast than what we have with stranger things which is uh more of a contained world it's not all we don't have all sprawling universes and alternate dimensions to go to. So I think it's, we're trying something a little bit different and I were excited about it because it allows us to tell new stories. And yes, it'll connect, but also it really is going to be its own own own thing with its own identity. Because I think the only other option would be to start to continue to mine these tiny little gaps or openings in the show, which they're they're just becoming less and less.
51:02Ross Duffer:Obviously, we did it with the play and we're doing it with the with the cartoon. But we're we're almost we're we're almost out of those little openings. So we really just have to and it's just going to be diminishing returns. So we have to just go and build something completely new. But we're excited about it. It's just an idea that we're just so think it's going to be so awesome.
51:28Matt Duffer:All right, we'll end with this. So as you sit here today, no, obviously no plans to continue with any of these characters. E.T. never did it. They never did the sequel. But, you know, the world, you know, the world we live in today. It's hard to leave anything alone. We're going to keep talking over the subsequent years in five years, in 10 years when we're talking. are we talking about more stories with these characters? If you're betting men, what do you say?
51:55Ross Duffer:I mean, I hope not. Because that would mean things... You know I'm taping this, and I can put these down rematches. I could come back and really regret this. No, I don't want... We don't want to. I mean, we really don't. And I mean, listen, we don't own the IP. It's not up to me. but I don't think that it's something Ross and I are interested in. I mean, we spent 10 years of our lives on this and it's a coming of age story. And if it's not a coming of age story, you know, what is it? I mean, I think the only way it could work is we'd have to wait a really long time until our cast is so old that they would have kids that are around 12 years old.
52:44Ross Duffer:like you know like the Goonies spinoff that is the only version that could possibly work but that's a long time for now and I'm not helping you out already
52:52Matt Duffer:Millie started this off you got some good job yeah you're right
52:58Ross Duffer:I think ultimately I think it'll just take away from it would take away from this story and the ending you know and with this the ending with Eleven that we have and leaving it up to the audience, you sort of, any direction you go, you steal the power from that and you steal the power from the ending. So, no plans. No plans. Okay. This was recorded. I will revisit this. We all will. If this does not bite me in the ass, when I'm like, I need some fucking money. Will George Lucas this enter you? Is that possible?
53:42Matt Duffer:Yeah, sure.
53:43Ross Duffer:Yeah, just lob it off before you ask that question.
53:47Matt Duffer:No problem. I'm here for you. Congratulations, guys, truly. It's been such a privilege to go on the journey with all of you guys. Your cast, I'm in love with the show. You really wrapped it up so, so damn well. And you guys know better than anybody how difficult that is. I hope you're enjoying the moment. And take 48 hours.
54:06Ross Duffer:Trying to, man. It's a very confusing feeling. We've been texting with the cast and everyone's not sure what to do. Everybody's spread out. I think that's what's really hard. We're all feeling so desperate to get together and no one's in the same location. That's challenging, but we'll see each other again soon. It's been a blast. And thank you for, truly, for supporting the show for so long. It means a lot to us.
54:44Matt Duffer:Anytime. I'll see you guys soon, I'm sure. And congrats again. Thanks, Ross. Thanks, Matt.
54:49Ross Duffer:Thank you, Josh. Happy New Year, man. Yeah, happy New Year. All right, you too. Truly, thanks, guys. Talk to you soon. Thank you, man. Yeah.
54:56Matt Duffer:And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.
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