THE WEST WING reunion (Martin Sheen & Dule Hill)

20:52Martin Sheen:His press secretary was our first advisor.

20:55Dule Hill:Yeah, D.D. Myers. D.D. Myers, right. Sure enough. And I got to give a shout out to Chris Ensco because Chris Ensco was the personal aide to the president at the time. And he's the one our first D.D. connected us. And we got a chance to sit down and talk. And he really let me know how integral that position is to the movements of the West Wing. It's also great that I'm so happy we have you two because that relationship in particular was a really special one to see in the show and how it developed. Can you talk about, I mean, I don't know how the Charlie Bartlett relationship was special to you working with Martin and vice versa and how it progressed over the course of the years.

21:31Dule Hill:I mean, I could say when I first came to this set, I joined the show in the third episode. And I mean, I'm coming to this set. It's on Warner Brothers, this historic lot. There's Martin Sheen, there's Rob Lowe, there's Richard Schiff, there's Allison Janney, there's John Spencer. Oh, there's a guy who wrote You Can't Handle the Truth. I'm like, oh, and that's the guy who produced ER. This is crazy. So I'm just like, oh, my gosh. And then I come on to the set, which is a magnificent set. Side note, I'm going to do a little side note. I never walked into the Oval Office until we rehearsed the scene of Charlie coming into the Oval Office.

22:09Dule Hill:So by the time we filmed it, that was really the second time. I rehearsed it, came back in and filmed it, and that's when I really started to take it in. so that really was my reaction to seeing the Oval Office because I'd never seen it before but early in the week was when I first met Martin I mean I see okay here comes here comes Martin Sheen this is crazy and he came up to me and he says you know how you doing oh nice to meet you he said uh do you know uh you know Larry Fishburne well he goes by Lawrence now do you know yeah of course he said well I did a movie with him called Apocalypse Now and you know he taught me this handshake and I'm going to teach it to you.

22:43Dule Hill:And this is the handshake.

22:53Dule Hill:And to this day, we still do it whenever we see each other. But it allowed me to realize how personable he was. It allowed me to get beyond the, you know, I guess the, what's the word I'm looking for? Like the Martin Sheen of it all. And be like, oh wow, this is a cool guy. Okay. So from there, it really helped, I think, build the relationship. And then we used to play basketball. And I don't want to say it, but Martin used to beat me on the basketball court. We would play one-on-one right there on Warner Brothers, and I'm still very angry because I don't think I've ever beaten Martin. You know what I mean?

23:27Dule Hill:So there you go. But things like that would help. We're going to finish this outside today. I think we should bring a basketball hoop in right now.

23:38Martin Sheen:Incidentally, go Illini tonight.

23:43Dule Hill:I would imagine it's hard to pinpoint specific episodes or scenes, but there are some very memorable ones that people often cite. The Two Cathedrals episode, for you, Martin, I mean, that kind of monologue rant to God, it's a pretty powerful, powerful moment for you. Does that jump out at you as an especially memorable scene and episode?

24:07Martin Sheen:It was. You know, I was astonished. He had half of it. This is Aaron Sorkin wrote that episode. And in that monologue, he put almost half of it in Latin. And I asked, I said, why are you putting this in Latin? and he said, well, I thought I would put it in the language of God. I thought, where did you hear that? But I was an altar boy when I was a child, and I remembered a lot of the Latin, but mostly the prayers of the mass. And so I went to my local parish priest, Monsignor Sheridan, and I asked him to go over it with me. And I realized how far off I was until I started studying with him. But it took me about a week, and I finally got it.

25:06Martin Sheen:And so, yeah, that scene was kind of touchy because it was in the National Cathedral. You're not even allowed to smoke within a block of that place. And I was smoking in the sanctuary and then stamping it out on the floor. I mean, there are no ashtrays there, of course. And some of the acolytes, the men and the women who are there all the time, they were not pleased with that at all. And I saw how uncomfortable they were, but they weren't talking about it, but just their facial expressions. Because when we shot the master, then you have to come in closer and do the coverage. and during that period, which sometimes takes 20 minutes or even a half hour to relight a scene, and I was kind of waiting around and I started talking to a few of these guys and I said, you seem uncomfortable with what I'm doing in this scene.

26:09They said, well, yeah, we don't normally talk to God like that,

26:14Martin Sheen:but it's the smoking that really we find offensive. and I said oh well okay I said but um I said well why did you okay us doing it in here and they said it wasn't our idea some I guess some some agency in the government allowed us in there and I it's the last last time that anyone filmed in there in a show you know and I but at any rate they were very uncomfortable and I was trying to make them feel oh you know that we weren't desecrating the place or the faith and and just then I looked up at the top window you know how you looked at like I'm doing right now trying to think of something to say I'm still trying to think of something to say and uh there was a stained glass window at the top uh part of the cathedral and it was Job of all things of all guys and so I said you know what this scene is about and they said what do you think I said that guy he's crying out to God how could you do this to me on the other hand you know uh thanks for for keeping me here kind of you know the way we rage and and then we give thanks and praise but we rage again and we give thanks to it's very human and they kind of got it, you know, that we were not being sacrilegious by any stretch of the imagination.

27:50Martin Sheen:We were just trying to be really human. And the fact that the president of the United States was showing the depth of his humanity, his brokenness, and he was having it out with the creator, you know, had a very profound effect on a lot of folks when they saw that scene, and not the least of which was me. but yeah that's a very memorable scene and we forget that it was Mrs. Landingham's funeral that's where it started and I just wonder if we could stop and just speaking of Mrs. Landingham Dulé had a very special relationship with Mrs. Landingham every time he got into the Dulé is one of the top professional dancers in the United States if not the world if any of you have seen him dance.

28:41Martin Sheen:And he used to come in to work and he would dance when he's waiting, you know, for a scene or just waiting around. He dances anywhere he can. He just starts dancing. Mrs. Landingham did not approve. Please take it from there.

28:57Dule Hill:No dancing in the Oval Office? That's not allowed? Right outside the Oval Office was the one place on the side of the West Wing where I could not dance. I would come in and Catherine would be like, Dulé?

29:10Dule Hill:I would just walk on out. It's funny, speaking of Mrs. Landingham's funeral at the cathedral, it brought back to my memory that in between takes, I would go up to the pulpit. And I think I had like, I may have had like one line or something to say, but I was up there and I would go, you did this, Mr. President, you did this. Just to, you know, lighten the mood a little bit, you know. It was a heavy scene. Oh, my God. I know you did this, Mr. President.

29:43Martin Sheen:He came into the church and said, who's in the box?

29:51Dule Hill:Virtually. I will say, I always say about the West Wing is that it was a drama. But I used to say, you know, we could go back and do this show as a half hour comedy. Because there are so many personalities on the set that we would laugh so much off camera. It would be a real comedy show. So where are you guys at? I know you get this question probably virtually every day. It's been brought up. A reboot, a continuation, et cetera. It seems like, I don't know, it seems like that's not happening. I mean, have you wanted it to happen over the years? Like, where is your heads at right now in terms of continuing the West Wing?

30:24Dule Hill:And what would it look like in 2026? We're in a different environment, aren't we? I mean, I'll let you answer as well. But I'm like, for myself, I think some things are better left alone. I just think it's really told a story. The second part of it, I will say, is when you watch the West Wing now, it doesn't seem archaic. So many things are still so current, which is a testament to the brilliance of Aaron Sorkin and all the creative forces behind the show, but also a conviction to our society because we've not moved further enough along the road. So I really don't know how you take that and make it new when that still is so relevant today.

31:05Dule Hill:But at the bottom of it, I will say if Aaron Sorkin came up with an idea, then I think we all would be there. Simple as that. Charlie for president. There you go. Hear, hear. He went to law school. What happened to Charlie in the last 20 years? What do you think? How's he doing? How's he doing? I think he's doing quite all right for himself. I would guess that he's working either in government or right outside of government. You know, I would say he's probably going the lane of Melissa Fitzgerald, who plays Carol on our show. She actually is involved in real work outside of, like, in government now.

31:40Dule Hill:She works with a nonprofit called All Rise.

31:45Martin Sheen:Yeah, All Rise, which is the drug court, basically. You know, the National Association of Drug Court Professionals. It's under a different name now. under the present administration. Nevertheless, people are still being served in drug court. I assume most of you know what that is. Yes or no? OK, good. But as far as doing, are you talking about like a rehash?

32:13Dule Hill:Yeah, what's your attitude about returning to the character, seeing West Wing come back in some form?

32:17Martin Sheen:Well, even before it went off the air, I was already retired. It's true. I'm not getting any closer to getting back there you know somebody told me one day not too long ago you ought to run for president I couldn't even walk for president but I think that Aaron Sorkin has kept a focus and if he ever went back or decided to do a West Wing I don't know if it could be any better than the one he did I honestly don't know because it was so brilliant he was so absolutely magnificent And it's, you know, hard to imagine it any better. And, you know, it's like, okay, what would be the purpose of doing a new one when you can still see the old one that's really still, as Dulé was just saying, it's as relevant today as it was then, if not more so.

33:10Dule Hill:And you still get called Mr. President to this day, I would imagine. Do people say that to you?

33:14Martin Sheen:I'm often referred to as the former acting president of the United States.

33:20Dule Hill:It's very strange that whenever I go to see Martin, he always tells me when the president stands. So he likes to walk around just standing up all the time so that none of us get to sit down. I'm just playing.

33:32Martin Sheen:You know, you may be referring to that scene. I don't know if some of you remember that episode where the lady wouldn't. Okay. And I said that to her after I just bashed her to this horrible level of, what would you say? What did I do? I humiliated her after she tried to humiliate me, of course. But I won in the end.

33:56Dule Hill:She deserved to have heard somebody say, yes.

33:59Martin Sheen:But when she, I said, you know, when the president, everybody stands, she stood up. And I said, thank you. They cut it. And I, do you know that? Every take, I'd say, thank you. And they'd say, no, don't say thank you. And I'd say, no, this president says thank you. So when I saw the show, the thank you was cut. And I asked, I said, why did you cut the thank you? He said, because that was Martin. That was not Bartlett. I said, okay.

34:31Dule Hill:Did either of you enjoy or dread the long walk and talks? because that's a challenge for an actor. That's a lot of dialogue, and there's a lot of choreography involved too. Maybe your dance background helped with that. I don't know. The only time I really dreaded it was when I was at the end of the walk and talk and had to come and say, here you go, Mr. President. You know, because if I come back and I say, oh my gosh, you don't want to do that because they have to do the whole thing all over again, and you had one line to say, so that's the hardest part. But beyond that, I actually enjoyed it because it kind of made it even more like theater.

35:10Dule Hill:You had to do it. You had to get it all in this one take. And I knew how beautiful those shots would turn out. So I was actually excited to be a part of those moments.

35:20Martin Sheen:That became like a trademark of our show. But it was also a very interesting technique because if you shoot a walk and talk, you don't cover it. You don't have to. if everybody hits their mark and remembers their lines, which was rare enough. But if we did, that was it. And sometimes it took, we'd do six, eight, nine, ten takes sometimes, but you didn't have to cover it, which usually took hours and hours to cover. And I just want to mention, my favorite walk and talk scene was with Dulé, where we had a scene where we left the Oval and we're going somewhere. I can't remember where, but do you remember the scene where I was saying, Oh, good to see you, Joe.

36:03Martin Sheen:And Harry. Oh, Mike, sir. All the best. Say hello to Sally. Hey, how are you doing, Ben? All the best. Yeah. Good to see you. And at the end of it, after this five-minute walk, I asked Dulé, and let's play it. Charlie, did I get any of them right?

36:20Dule Hill:I don't know what my line would be.

36:23Martin Sheen:No, sir. No, sir. You got close on a couple.

36:28Dule Hill:I think that probably might have been a reflective of us on set a lot of times you know my favorite walk I'll talk about my favorite one is the one we were at the hotel I think we filmed at the Biltmore in Los Angeles and we had to come all the way downstairs and all the way out to the car that one for me I enjoyed it like seeing it but it was pretty nerve-wracking for me because I didn't have much to say and it's like it's so much moving in choreography it's like don't mess it up do not mess it up more happy sad confused coming up

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38:05Dule Hill:The ensemble is amazing from top to bottom. I mean, having someone like Elizabeth Moss, who is your contemporary, obviously, did that help? I mean, you kind of like, Like, she had been acting since she was a kid, too. But, like, having someone as a contemporary to kind of go through it with, was that helpful for you, Duway? I mean, honestly, it was helpful. Like, I just enjoyed being around everybody. I loved working with Elizabeth. But everyone was so warm and welcoming to me that from the beginning, it truly felt like a family. I felt safe. And it really was about sitting back and learning. I'll take a little pivot.

38:37Dule Hill:I know there was a scene with Martin and John Spencer in the Oval Office. And I believe Laura Ennis was directing. And that might have been, what's the title of the show? Let Bartlett Be Bartlett or something like that or Bartlett for America? And you were going at it. Something had happened and you and John came in and they were really going at it. And I'm like, man, these are two heavyweights. These cats are really good. And Laura just kept working with you all and peeling the layers back. And eventually it got to just a conversation that was so grounded. And it touched me so much because I was in the scene.

39:12Dule Hill:I didn't say anything in the scene, but I was in the scene. And it was really one of the most viable moments for me on the set of The West with me because I just sat there and got a chance to learn. But that happened to me so often on the show, just being around Martin and Allison and all these, you know, all these guest actors coming in. It really was a gift that has been a gift of a lifetime. Yeah, but imagine you bring that to something like Psych when, you know, you've learned from seeing the number one and number two on the call sheet and then you become that guy. you carried on. So much of what I brought to Psych in terms of how I dealt with myself on this set came from what I learned from Martin and John and everybody else on this show.

39:52Dule Hill:A little side note, Mrs. Landingham, they did a flashback episode I think in the two cathedrals I think where they show Mrs. Landingham, a younger version of Mrs. Landingham and that is Kirsten Nelson who plays Chief Vic on Psych. All connected. There it is. Yep.

40:10Martin Sheen:You know, speaking of Elizabeth Moss, when she first arrived, she was a little nervous, her first episode. And John Spencer went up to her and he said, you will be our daughter. And that was it.

40:24Dule Hill:She's done all right for herself. She's done quite all right for herself. Taking a step back for a second from the West Wing, you guys both have like Comic-Con cred, C2E2 cred. I mean, we mentioned you've been to Comic-Cons over the years for Psych, of course. Talk to me a little bit about, like, I don't know, did you grow up into genre, comics, any of this world? Or did you kind of discover it along the way? Or what, do I? I more discovered it along the way. You know, I was, my family's from Jamaica. I was, I knew about Bob Marley. Bob Marley, soccer, and rum punch. Not that I was drinking rum punch, I'm just saying.

41:02Dule Hill:but I came up into it along the way especially during the psych years because James Roday was such a he's so much into all of the genre stuff that's where I started to really find a connection to it with and for you Martin, I mean all you have to say is with great power comes great responsibility and this crowd will worship you I mean playing Uncle Ben in Spider-Man did you realize how, I mean everybody knows Spider-Man everybody I think knows Uncle Ben But did you know how powerful a figure that was in the comic book world when you took on that role?

41:37Martin Sheen:Clearly, I did not. I had never seen a Spider-Man before or since. But I'll tell you what. I was speaking at the Loyola University graduation, and I was being introduced. and the fellow that was introducing me named all these credits, the West Wing, Apocalypse Now, Badlands, endless credits, and they just sat there. And then he said, he played Uncle Ben in the Spider-Man and they almost stood up.

42:15Martin Sheen:So what am I missing?

42:17Dule Hill:I mean, to be fair, you've also got one of the great Stephen King adaptations on your resume too. The Dead Zone's a pretty great... a different kind of politician than jed bartlett a little well not anymore yeah

42:35Dule Hill:yeah we're just gonna let that hang there i said

42:39Martin Sheen:uh that it was great fun playing that lunatic but you you you don't really conceive that it could happen. Duh.

42:53Dule Hill:So any questions from the crowd? We do actually have an audience that I'm sure has some questions. I think we have some microphones out there. Are people lined up? Yeah, let's go ahead. Let's start over here. Hi, my name is Christine. I'm from Oak Lawn and I became a new mom the same time that the West Wing was starting. So I was very surprised that I got so much parenting advice from your show. Watching Mrs. Lanningham to help develop Jed to become the man that he became, and then watching Jed develop Charlie Young to become the man, and then your own daughters. So what was the most surprising thing of the West Wing that brought to your own lives personally?

43:43Dule Hill:I mean really it allowed me at that time to realize that people in government are people just like you and me that they are just people and that's something I didn't realize leading up to that point because they seem like oh these you know that senator so-and-so and president so-and-so all of these pillars of these buildings they're all inhabited by people who are just like you and me. And that's something that I really started to connect with me that if I want to be a part of the solution, I have to engage myself. I have to take steps because that's how I become a part of the process. And I didn't understand that.

44:20Dule Hill:It didn't really truly connect with me until I did the West Wing.

44:24Martin Sheen:I would have to confirm that from my part as well. I didn't realize that our government is basically run by people and that you know all the the cabinet posts and the president himself change every four years but basically these are the people that serve us and all those agencies and that's what's so heartbreaking now as I speak that they're being diminished and that the people in them are being dismissed and that's why today is such an important day in the life of our country's future because the people have to remind the government that they're there for us. We are not there to serve them.

45:18Martin Sheen:So I think that the West Wing really accentuated that, how important those people were. And here's another thing which you may not know, is that most of the storylines in the West Wing came from actual stories that were given to us by administrations going all the way back to Eisenhower, to Harry Truman. And one of them was one of my favorite episodes when Charlie found a letter from a little boy in Brooklyn, I guess it was. Do you remember the episode? And it fell in those days. We used to call it the dead letterbox. Remember? Did you get my letter? No. It was in the dead letterbox for some reason or other.

45:58Martin Sheen:A little boy in Brooklyn, New York, back in the 1930s, wrote a letter to President Franklin Roosevelt asking him to please help his father find a job. That letter finally reached the White House in Jimmy Carter's administration. So it was a real story. And then he found the guy, and they brought the little boy, who was now an elderly fellow. And Charlie, in that episode, finds the guy. You want to just mention about that?

46:28Dule Hill:I remember, I think it was, was that the one where Bill Cobb, I believe, played the person? But I do remember that. Yeah, I remember that episode.

46:36Martin Sheen:So that was a real story. And I love that about the West Wing, that so many of the stories were taken from real life and brought up to date, kind of, you know. Thank you. You have a follow-up? I just think the series helped inspire activism for an entire generation.

46:58Dule Hill:So thank you. Thank you so much.

47:00Martin Sheen:You want to go here?

47:02Dule Hill:Over here, yep. As if it were written by Aaron Sorkin, that was a perfect segue to my question. But before I ask it, I wanted to say sitting here, I can't help but think of the episode Arctic Radar and how Josh admonished the intern for and described the difference between being a fan and there being a fetish. And I feel like he would call this a fetish, right? and like comparing episodes, comparing people. As he said, I'm fine with that. So we'll be fine with that. Anyway, I was a senior in high school when the show started. And there was a companion website. NBC, like it was the beginning of this kind of thing.

47:37Dule Hill:They were kind of innovative in the way they use digital media. And I wonder if you have any recollection of the fact that like you're talking about, each episode would have information on the NBC website where you could go and learn about the real life things that happened and for me it informed much of what I know about politics currently and in college I wrote a paper and accidentally used a West Wing character's foreign leader's name repeatedly interestingly the professor was like I love the show it's fine but it was such a huge impact for me and I wonder if you guys remember that at all or developing that or whether ever you know made it to the actors i wasn't i mean i've heard about the

48:19Martin Sheen:the it was called a website wasn't it at that time yeah yeah i'd heard about it but i i still don't if i had a computer i would not know how to turn it on i heard you say that recently yeah it's absolutely true so i'm gonna let my friend respond and i wasn't i was not aware of it at the time i

48:35Dule Hill:do know that they had a curriculum that used to go into the schools but i was not aware of of the of the website yeah it's funny it's amazing to me sometimes though how you you do something you don't realize the domino effect that you have and we're telling these stories and i'm very thankful for it but you don't realize that wow it inspires people along the way which is why i love coming to events like this just to see the fruits of the work over over time you know i think if each of us always do our part in our existence then we can make the world a better place and i often say if I can get a billion people to move a billion stones, then we can move a mountain.

49:09Dule Hill:Absolutely. And the fact that, you know, it is us being on set for all those hours informed how you look at government and politics. And then that will inform how you move throughout the world and so many other people. That's how we all stay connected. We all do our part to hopefully move the ball forward. Yeah. Thanks. I would. Yeah. I would imagine both of you have encountered people that have said to you, I'm in politics, I'm in this field, partially because I watch the West Wing.

49:37Martin Sheen:A tremendous amount of people have responded. And today, even a lot of people are coming when we're signing things and things from the West Wing, and they're telling us the effect that it had on them. Yeah. Amazing. Let's go over here. Yeah. Yeah. Hi. Yeah. You had such a big effect. I moved to DC. So that's one thing. But hi, my name's Zoe. I'm dressed as Zoe Bartlett. Amazing. So I wanted to give a shout out, of course. Have you been on my life, Zoe?

50:05Dule Hill:It's been so long since we've been together. I've been called you in so long. I'm sorry. I still don't like that French dude you were with, man. I mean, come on. Good call. Good call. Yes. Don't make it weird, man. Come on. He's right.

50:18Martin Sheen:So, no, I just have a question for my big sister. She introduced me to West Wing and to Psych. So for her, I wanted to ask Mr. Dulay Hill, do you think Charlie and Gus would be friends or how would they get along?

50:34Dule Hill:Oh, I think Gus would annoy Charlie. I think at first they might be like, oh, wow, you're a brilliant young man. Oh, you're a brilliant young man. But the more that they talked, I think Charlie would be like, I got to get away from this dude because have you seen his friend too? No, that's not a good combination. Thank you. Let's go over here. Hello. Hello. CJ was always one of my favorite characters. I was a journalism major. I wanted to know what it was like working with Allison Janney, if you have any favorite scenes or any favorite stories of her. I can answer that. I mean, I love Allison Janney.

51:11Dule Hill:To this day, I just love her so dearly. She is such a beautiful soul, a shining light. As talented as she is, she is so humble and just engaging with people. I love her to the ends of the earth. I really, really do. There's a scene that she did. and she had you know we got scripts late oftentimes and there was a scene that was being rewritten and it was her and Anna Devere Smith and she it was a long walk and talk with her and Anna Devere Smith and she received the this this the scene and she said okay look give me give me a few minutes and she went to her trail and she worked on it and she came back and she delivered this performance and I was like how do you do that you know and it was from the woman of Kamar if I'm not mistaken and it's the one where they do the walk and talk and at the end she turns to Anna DeVere Smith and she goes, they're beating their women.

52:02Dule Hill:They're beating their women and then she walks out into the press briefing room and she becomes the press secretary. When I saw that, I just, I'll say that scene, the two cathedrals scene and Richard Schiff in Excelsior Sedeo, those were the scenes that really let me know like wow, like the bar of what you can do with this art form of acting, how you can really embody something and be so powerful with your vessel. So she's a great inspiration for me and I love her dearly.

52:40Martin Sheen:I don't know if Dulé knows this, but there was a poll taken by an organization that that wanted to know who in the show the audience were most impressed by. And hands down, it was Allison. Did you know about this? I tried to keep it from you.

53:08Dule Hill:I mean, yeah, I'm very disappointed. I'm like, wow, really? No, that's not surprising to me at all. Yes, we all adored her, and we loved having scenes with her.

53:20Martin Sheen:She had this image of being so straight and bright, but she was the funniest person, bar none among us, with the possible exception of Brad Whitford, who looked at you and you started laughing. But she was, we adored. And somebody told us a story. She was doing an interview about the show, and the reporter commented, well, you know, there's no love interest really in the West. me oh yes there is she said and the reporter said between who and she said between john and martin of course thank you thank you let's go over here yeah hi hi i just want to take a second to shout out what i imagine for most of us was government teachers because that's how i got introduced

54:12Dule Hill:to you and government teachers have a very difficult job but you actually made that job easier I think so shout out to the government teachers most definitely most

54:23Martin Sheen:definitely thank you very much my question is as we know Aaron Sorkin's

54:30Dule Hill:dialogue is top-notch and we know you all got it very late oh 20 26 years later which of those scenes really stands out to you that you can you know do with a drop of a dime or what has stuck with you?

54:50Martin Sheen:One of my favorite episodes and because I didn't get many opportunities for comedy, one of my favorite episodes was the turkey.

55:06Martin Sheen:But the way it was written and how and how I'm trying to pretend I'm somebody else and I'm getting the information as Dulé and Richard are scribbling it on and handing it to me. And watching that, I was actually laughing at myself. I thought, wow, I should do more comedy. I'm too dramatic. I've got to lighten up. But I love that episode. My favorite episode, as I think you know, was in excelsis day, of the Christmas show, the first Christmas show, and it led towards the funeral at Arlington with the former Marine who died homeless on the streets of Washington. Do you remember that show?

55:53Dule Hill:Oh, yeah.

55:54Martin Sheen:Okay, good. Yeah. It was the most moving show. It's hard to watch without just just weeping because it's still happening today of course but the fact that he was a Korean war veteran my brother was in Korea as a Marine and he was never the same after his time there but I just I just felt his presence and his gratitude that we were celebrating this man's life even though it was too late really and we have a tendency to do that unfortunately so that that's one of my favorite episodes is that we honored a veteran who is otherwise going to be discarded you know do any any um yes hey i don't really have much to add to that because that is one of my

56:49Dule Hill:favorite episodes as well i mean richard's performance in that in the entire cast was phenomenal but that episode really touched me and of course I have to go back to two cathedrals because it was just brilliant work it was absolutely brilliant work I always say I can't believe that Martin didn't get an Emmy award for that season alone, that episode alone, you know as you always say it was Passover every time we would go to the award shows Martin would say oh this is Passover this is when they pass over to me and give it to the other guy

57:23Dule Hill:Are those other guys here today? I don't think so. Michael Chiklis is here. Yeah, Michael Chiklis is here. Damn it, Chiklis. All right, that was a good show too. The Shield, okay. Real quick though about the government teachers. My daughter in university, she goes to Northwestern out here. Go Cats! Yeah, she was in her constitutional law class. And next thing you know, they're showing an episode of the West Wing. And she's like, that's my dad.

57:57Dule Hill:So it's still being used today, which is pretty, you know, pretty wild for the mind. Let's go over here. Yeah, please. First of all, go cats. Hey.

58:09Dule Hill:Thank you so much for being here. I want to I'm thinking a lot about the state of the world. And I'm really just, I want to ask people who have a lifelong career of activism, how you keep your fires lit and how you stop yourself from burning out in this.

58:32I mean, there's a quote, what was it, Dr.

58:35Dule Hill:King says, the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. That does truly inspire me. It does inspire me because it's not always what is right in front of me. It's where we are going. As I look at the nation today, we are in a terrible place. But if we look back at the totality of our nation, this is not the worst we have ever been. We've done a lot of terrible things within this country. We've done a lot of magnificent things. But, I mean, the fact that I'm sitting here is showing you that we've come a long way from where we are. and I trust that the goodness of people within our nation will eventually break on through.

59:14Dule Hill:Another thing I always say is just beyond the storm clouds, the sun is always shining. As a matter of fact, it goes back to the time we were out there with Rob and it was me, you, and a few of us. We had taken off, I think, out of Nashville or Memphis and the storm was raging. Eventually, we got in the air and we got into the clouds. and the clouds, you know, whenever you're in the clouds, you don't know which way is up, which way is down. But eventually we kept on flying and we kept going a little bit higher and we saw a peaking of a red light at first. And then when we got above the clouds, it was so peaceful, so beautiful up there that I said, I said, look at this.

59:47Dule Hill:When we were on the tarmac, we couldn't imagine in our mind's eye that just beyond the storm clouds, the sun was always shining. I said, if we could hold on to this as we are going through our personal struggles in life, then maybe we can find encouragement to make one more step to go a little bit further along the way. And my grandmother would always say, later will be greater. So I truly believe that even now, in the midst of the storm clouds that are rising above our nation, that we the people, if we hold on to each other, if we see the humanity of each other, if we stay connected to each other, we keep putting one foot in front of the other, and we each pick up our stone, then collectively we can move the mountain and get to the point where the sunshine brights again.

1:00:24Dule Hill:That's how I stay encouraged along the way. We're almost out of time, but Martin, I feel like I'd love to hear you weigh in on that. Let's end this panel with a little bit of hope. Dulé did a great job, but what do you got for us, Martin?

1:00:38Martin Sheen:Well, I couldn't do it any better than that, honestly. It's about our humanity, and we really, particularly in times like these, which we have never really had to relate to before, we realize how valuable our relationships with each other are. Are we looking in on our neighbor? Are we concerned about somebody who's being taken away? Are we concerned about the level of cruelty and violence and chaos? That's coming from a very, very dark place. I think that when they assemble in that, I used to call it that sacred chamber, the cabinet room, because in that room, there's a fellow sitting in that room whose father and uncle helped pull the world away from nuclear destruction in that room.

1:01:40Martin Sheen:During the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, Bobby and John Kennedy literally pulled the world away from nuclear disaster. So it's possible that we could have people serving us that are conscious of being in touch with the best part of their humanity, and that is compassion. To reach out to somebody, say, we've got to understand that everything has a consequence. You can't mistreat people. you can't mistreat a country you can't destroy a government without consequences we're seeing a response to that just today non-violently with people who care enough to risk calling our country to its best its best part that this group in Washington is not a reflection of who we are they sit across the table and see the worst part of themselves on the other side.

1:02:44Martin Sheen:There's no one in that cabinet that they want to be. And I promise you that secretly they despise one another because there's no heroes among them. There's no one that they see across. I want to be like him. I want to be like her. They don't exist. And so they look to us. I promise you today, every one of those cabinet officials, plus the old man and all his staff are looking what's happening in the street because that's the voice of the people for the people. and they're going to get a very loud and clear message about what it means to be human. It means to care for one another, bottom line. Just care for one another.

1:03:27Dule Hill:Well, I do want to say very quickly too, I can't let this time go away. Have you heard of the Martin Sheen podcast? Yes. if you have not please check it out because really truly that you look for little things of inspiration the stories that barton shares the poetry that he reads the uh consider this these one line things that he puts out there are so they are they talk about the past but they're so relevant for where we are today and you just got to find little things that you can do to encourage yourself along the way sometimes i'll just be in my car and i'll play an episode and And somehow when I'm finished with the episode, I do feel better about the world than what I see on the news.

1:04:10Dule Hill:So things like that I think is what we could do to find encouragement along the way. Thank you. Thank you both for speaking so eloquently.

1:04:17Martin Sheen:Yes, Martin. Do you mind if I do this? Please. We ready to end this? We got to end it. Okay. You get the final word. Dulé just mentioned our podcast. We end our podcast every show with a prayer from Tagore for our nation. Do you want to do it here? Yes. Okay. We are called to lift up this nation and all its people to that place where the heart is without fear and the head is held high. Where knowledge is free. Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow domestic walls. Where words come out from the depths of truth and tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection.

1:04:59Martin Sheen:where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the dreary desert sands of dead habit, where the mind is led forward by thee into ever-widening thought and action, into that heaven of freedom, dear Father. Let our country awake. Amen. To a hill, Martin Sheen.

1:05:25Dule Hill:Thank you, Chicago.

1:05:34Dule Hill:And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

1:05:52Dule Hill:This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans.