Tom Holland (plus Kevin Feige & Amy Pascal)

28:22Yeah. In my eyes, everything between the two studios was fantastic. Yeah. First movie went really well. The borrowing of the character for Civil War seemed to be a big success. But that said, I love Tom Rothman. Yeah. I love Amy Pascal. I love Rachel O 'Connor. I still had a great sense of confidence that whatever we would do with that second movie would be great. Yeah. And would be really fun. And it was made very aware to me that they weren't moving on from me. It was just that the relationship between, like, mum and dad had fallen apart a little bit. Kind of literally, yeah. And I think, you know, both of the studios chatted with each other and figured it out and recognized that the character would service both studios in a really good way.

29:18And I think that, you know, they, I don't know. I don't really know, but I just know that I always had confidence in the character and Amy and Tom and Rachel. You talk about being, you know, protective of the character, having a voice. We kind of alluded to that, how it's kind of grown throughout the years. And part of that I would imagine is also, we're talking about the Sony side of things. Obviously they were for a while trying to do all these spinoff movies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Morbius, Kraven, Venom, obviously. Did you have to kind of like take stands about like whether you it made sense or not to be involved?

29:49Because I would imagine for each of those movies, there's a point in time where they're like, we really want to use Spider-Man. And someone has to make the argument that it's not right or appropriate. Yeah, to be perfectly honest with you, I think that, you know, Rothman is a really smart guy. And I think that he was building this universe and they had this plan to kind of merge the worlds at some point. and I think that they just never found the right time to do so. I think it was on the cards, you know, and there were never any battles of like, we want you to be in this movie and I don't want to be in this movie.

30:23That never happened. It was just like, we'll get there, we just never got there. Yeah, I think that was the idea. It was like one day this will happen and like lots of things in the creative world, it just never came to fruition. And I think that we were feeling great confidence in my franchise with Watts and with the Marvel guys and the MCU that Tom and the guys at Sony just Wanted us to continue on our path. Yeah, and yeah, but there was never any times where I was being forced into a movie I didn't want to be in that never happened It is I mean I will say just from a fan perspective speaking for many It's like probably the one thing we always wanted obviously was you and Hardy.

31:02Yeah, I mean anything could happen anything could happen, you know? Who knows what the future of my Spider-Man looks like? You broke eye contact again, you just went over here again. Well listen, just wait and see, bro. Just wait and see. More Happy Sad Confused coming up.

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32:28So No Way Home is a miracle of a film. Yeah. Like that it even exists. It's awesome. I'm so proud of it. And that it wasn't just like a novelty. It could have just been kind of like coasting on like, this is awesome. Look at that. And then, but it's emotional and somehow works. Like, what do you take most pride in about that film from an acting perspective, from like a creative perspective when you look at that achievement? I think sharing the screen with Toby and Andrew. Yeah. I think as a fan of both of those guys and their movies, like it's such a wild experience to play a character while doing it with like two of your heroes from when you were a kid.

33:11Yeah. And having a shared experience, you know, playing Spider-Man is a really unique experience. Yeah. You know, on the big screen, there's only three of us that have done it. Yeah. And to share that with those guys was really awesome. I think working with a lot of the villains, the iconic villains, for me as a fan, again, was just absolutely out of this world crazy. You had to see Willem Dafoe across the set and Melina, yeah. I mean, come on. It was crazy. Yeah. And it just was an awesome experience. We had, you know, we kept it a secret for the best, for the most part. You know, there were little things.

33:48Talk to Andrew Garfield and his Uber Eats guy. I know. But what's so interesting is that like that, while at the time it felt like the walls were closing in and like, oh my God, the world knows, the cat's out of the bag, it's over. Yeah. It just added so much amazing speculation. Oh my God. One of my favorite interviews I think I've ever done is my post-mortem with Andrew after the movie came out. Right. Where he talked about lying to me for a year. Yeah. It's actually really tough, I think. When you are sitting on these secrets and people are asking you about them and you are actually just lying all the time, that weighs really heavy on me.

34:23And to be clear, from our perspective, at least speaking for me, I don't actually want you to spill anything. I don't want the movie ruined. Yeah, I know. I get that. I'm just enjoying the dance myself. No, I get that. I get that. But no, that was a crazy time. Yeah. And a highlight for me, I'm so proud of John Watson, like what he did with that original franchise, you know. He really, really landed the plane there. So, again, talking about kind of like creative input, getting to this new film. As I understand, you had some ideas. You had some things you brought to the table. Yeah. I keep reading, hearing spider puberty.

34:58Yeah. Is that kind of like the leading, I don't know, sentiment you brought to the table? What was the pitch? I wish you could hear the lead balloon that spider puberty was in the room. They're like, do you have anything else? Yeah. For me, it was this idea of exploring how a superhero develops over time. Right. You know, as a young kid, you go through puberty and your body changes more than ever. Yep. In my franchise, we never got to explore the really exciting time of any superhero movie where someone is figuring out how to use these new gifts. Yeah. and I always felt like I wanted to try and find a way to explore that so my idea is very different to what's in the movie and it evolved in the way that Peter evolved in a really big way but I basically just put on the table like what happens if Spider-Man starts developing all of these new powers and he's getting stronger and he's getting faster and his senses are becoming too powerful and he, I didn't come up with the organic webs thing.

36:07At one point I was like, what if he had like fangs that come out his hands and he had like venom spikes at one point and that is not in the movie, don't worry. And then, you know, we explored the nightmare sequences of him waking up as the man spider and very quickly we were like, we do want children to enjoy this movie as well as adults, you know, it's a little bit too creepy. But yeah, I was really grateful to Destin and Amy and Kevin and all of the, you know, creative team for letting me sit in that writer's room and just kind of bat ideas back and forth and try things and explore different options.

36:45And we went down so many different rabbit holes before we got to what the movie is today. And, you know, sometimes it's the worst idea. Right. That births. You've got to go down that road. and then absolute gold nugget of a piece of information um so yeah it was really fun so besides the stuff you just mentioned i was curious because you've never been shy about pitching stuff you famously pitched tom rothman like the james bond origin thing that came uncharted in a way like what is the craziest thing you've ever pitched like years ago for spider-man that just like never went anywhere is there one that jumps out at you that like maybe this was a good idea in the bathroom but it's not a good idea in practicality i can't think off the top of my head but there will be some rogue ones in there okay now i'm sure there are some terrible ideas that i've pitched over the years so you talked before about like we all want to see miles at some point alice morales like in your in your head will you know when it's time to kind of pass the baton and like have you imagined how you want that to go down?

37:48Oh yeah. There's a whole plan that we have been working on for, I would say, since we finished Spider-Man No Way Home. And it's like laid out. It's going to change for sure. Right. But I have a really clear vision to the passing on of the ban. and I think it's really exciting. I know I get really excited when we have these meetings and chat about it. Yeah. But that is the thing that I want to do most in this character. Yeah. For sure. Is, obviously we're all selfish. We want to see Toby again. We want to see Andrew again. We want to see a new Miles. Do you think there's room for concurrent, like for, you know, there was talk after No Way Home, a lot of different talks.

38:40Sure, sure, sure. Andrew could do the thing in his multiverse etc like as a fan from a fan perspective because you were a fan first yeah you want to see that like do you of course i do yeah are you kidding i think what's been so fun over these last few years is that there's so many different spider-man mediums you know we have spider noir that came out a few weeks ago we have my version we have you know the stuff that sony been doing we have the animated movies that sony make which are just like the best spider-man movies that have ever been made, those animated movies. Like, you can't... The heart in those movies is out of this world.

39:17You should add Nick Cage to the Spidey Bros text chain. That would be interesting. Maybe the whole screen just goes black and white when he texts. I don't know what kind of texter he is. I don't know either. I don't know him. I don't know the guy. But no, I think there's room for... Of course there's room for it. And I think DC are going to start exploring that now. I think they're doing a new Batman that's running a Jason... Jason to Robert's Batman. Yeah. I think Robert is so good in that role. I love those movies. I think he's so good in that role. Yeah. He looks, I mean, you've seen The Odyssey, so you can tell me.

39:49I mean, he's amazing in The Odyssey, dude. He like, what I love about Rob is that he never goes like down the middle. No, he's fearless. Like he is super fearless. And what he does in The Odyssey is top tier for sure. Okay. So heading towards the finish line. You mentioned Fred Astaire. I just want to bring that up because this is something you've been attached to for a long while. Yeah. And it's interesting. I was reading up. I mean, we all know Fred Astaire a little bit. But, like, I was reading up and I'm curious, like, is this about, like, he famously, like, worked with his sister. And they kind of, like, they broke up as a team.

40:25Like, it's kind of like it sounds like a story of reinvention. He had to kind of, like, change his career and life. Like, what about this story has kept you attached for nearly five years, I think? And what's exciting? I am super excited about the challenge. Yeah. And equally daunted. I think the thing I love the most about the script at the minute is it's the story of two siblings. Yeah. And being a sibling and a brother is like a huge part of my life. And I don't feel like I've had the opportunity to tap into that in a way. The movie is still very much something that we are figuring out. Yeah.

41:08So I don't really want to talk too much about like the ins and outs of what the movie will be. But I think thematically, it's just really interesting. Yeah. It's really, really interesting. And it was finding that balance of if you don't know who Fred Astaire is, it's still a movie for you. Sure. Because there's so much more to his life than being a movie star that's interesting. And I think that's what we've been trying to figure out. Because truth be told, if you ask my brother, Paddy, who Fred Astaire is, he has no idea. Right, right, right. and that to me is crazy, but I grew up a dancer and I love dancing and I'm sure there are people my age at 30 who are like, I don't really know who he is.

41:45So yeah, we're figuring it out. It'll be great. Paul King is such a lovely guy and a super talented filmmaker. So I have a lot of confidence in that. One step closer to the Paddington universe. There you go. Exactly. Will you be singing as well? Cause I mean, he's obviously known as a dancer, but he sang. There's some singing. Yeah, there's a bunch of singing. I go play the piano a whole bunch. And yeah, it's gonna be great. It's going to be a lot of fun. All right. We're going to end with this. The Happy Second Fuse profoundly random questions. You've never got to do these. Let's go. I think I know the first answer and I want to hear about it.

42:16Dogs or cats? Dogs. All day. Big time dog guy. Oh, man. What's the name of yours again? I got Phil and Moon. Okay. They're two. Yeah. I am really allergic to cats, so it's a little bit of an unfair advantage. But my dogs are everything. I'll have you know, besides Happy Second Fuse, who's my other passion right now, is Who's a Good Guest, my show where I talk to actors and their dogs. Oh. Tom, this is next. Who has had the best dog so far? I'm not gonna rank the dogs, but. What are we even doing this for? Here's what I'll say. Zoe Deutsch has a dog very much like mine. It's a pit mix. Cool, love that.

42:53Just like a love bug. So that one I relate the most to. Okay. Very diplomatic. Who has the best dog? What do you collect?

43:05good memories not a physical nothing not so much anymore okay for a while I was like really into collecting watches and and then I got a really meaningful watch and I just don't want to take it off right so then I was like why would I add to this watches when the watch I'm wearing is it means more to me than buying any watch so I guess I collect watches but not anymore okay Okay. But yeah, good times. Love it. Favorite video game of all time? Oh, The Last of Us. It's a good one. The second one. So good. Did you watch the series? Or you have been watching the HBO? I have not watched the series.

43:46I'm kidding. No, I have not watched the series because I love the game so much. Right, okay. Like I don't play video games all that much and the game is just so good. Have you played as yourself in Fortnite? There are multiple skins, I believe, of you. You know what, dude? I am so bad at Fortnite that I cannot play it because I just... I don't even think I've ever got a kill in Fortnite. And when you play those people that start building stuff, I don't know what to do. You need some cheat codes. You deserve it. Yeah, I don't know how to do that. Would you rather... This is the Dakota Johnson Memorial question.

44:24She asked me this. I ask everybody. Would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt? A mouthful of one bee in my butt, I think, would be... Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. What's the wallpaper on your phone? Zendaya. That's the correct answer. Yeah. By the way, did you enjoy the end of Euphoria? I love... Yeah, I mean... I'm always, like, continually blown away by how talented she is and how she holds herself and how much of a part of her life that whole experience was and it's just a it's an amazing achievement and she's you know she's been really decorated for making those shows but I think the relationships and the friendship she's made and the creative risks she's taken and the end result is something that she should be so proud of and I'm so proud of her for doing it and yeah I mean what an awesome what an awesome run yeah talk about a fearless performer.

45:24Yeah, absolutely. Last actor you were mistaken for.

45:31Ever happened? You're Tom Holland. I don't want to sound like a dick, though. I said it for you. Yeah. It's okay. You're not a dick. You're the last thing. No, I don't know. My brother Sam has been mistaken for Timothee Chalamet before, though. And I was there with him. So we were standing together straight past me and straight up to my brother, like, you're Timothee Chalamet and I was fucking devastated. I was like, whoa. It was actually, yeah, it was really funny. Promise wrapping up here. Worst note a director has ever given you? Oh, I can't say that out loud. Don't name the name. You don't have to say who it is.

46:08No, because people will figure it out. Oh. It's really bad. I want to know that off camera. And finally, in the spirit of happy, say confused. An actor who makes you happy. You see them on screen, you're in a better mood. Jacob Batalon. Just love that guy to bits. He's doing the dog show next week with me. He is? Yes. Let's go, Jacob. Movie that makes you sad? About time. Great. In a really wonderful way though. Yeah, yeah. And a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. Sea urchin. This has come up before. Who, why? Why? It's the consistency, snimey, right? What on earth? Yeah. We have, yeah, sea urchin.

46:50There it is. There it is. Tom Holland, finally a guest on Happy Second Fuse. Congratulations. Thank you for having me. On the best movie ever made. You said it. It's on the poster now. You heard it here first, folks. Thanks for your time. Thanks so much, man. Always a pleasure. Thanks, man. Hey, Amy. Hey, Heather. How's it going? Good to see you both. Good to see you, too. Okay, let's talk. Let's take a look back, first of all. I'm just curious. When you look back at the course of these past four films, what feels like the biggest creative risk you guys took over that span? Well, Kevin and I can look back on 27 years.

47:27We can go back that far if you want. I'm happy to. And I think, but when we think of these movies, it was really important to put Spider-Man into the MCU because he's a character that exists amongst other characters. And that was, on the one hand, risky, and on the other hand, a no-brainer. And I think we've, you know, I think that we've managed to keep Spider-Man on his own and also within a larger world. And I think that's, I think that, that, that was, that we did that good. I think we did good. You did good on that one. I'm going to say yes. I'm going to say you did good. No, you know, because you could have gotten all lost.

48:14Totally. But we didn't. It stunk. It could have stunk. The history of studios, different studios intermingling and figuring out that stuff, it just doesn't happen. It was us. Well, it's a testament to Amy and to her love of Spider-Man. No, and to you and your love of Spider-Man. It was because Kevin loves Spider-Man and I love Spider-Man so much that we both wanted to do the right thing for him. And we got our companies to agree. You know, the other thing about a risk, which is weird to think about now, but recasting him so soon after Andrew was a bit of a risk. That was. Bringing him in 10 years ago through Civil War was our way to try to mitigate that risk.

48:57And then also taking three movies to tell an elongated version of Spidey's origin that Sam told in the first half of a movie, I think was also a risk. and bringing in non-superhero supporting characters like Ned and MJ that play such a big part, which is what we wanted in his high school environment. And then sitting in your press conference today, Josh, with the three of them, now titans of industry and much better spokesmen than we've ever been. Well, it's also you've reaped the rewards of that risk that you just talked about, because you have made another what could be considered a risk on this film, which is the Hollywood playbook is you go bigger, you go bigger, you keep escalating.

49:43And because those three actors are so phenomenal, because of what John and you guys all, you went smaller. Yeah. Was there an iteration of this where you said, like, let's try to go even bigger? No. Or was it, it was always the mission statement? It's hard to get bigger than three Spider-Men. Well, Amy does that in her animated movies with a hundred Spider-Men. That's fair. Right. That's fair. But, you know, after you do a movie with three Spider-Men, which was a beautiful and generous reunion and generous experience for all of them, the point was really to concentrate on Peter. And going bigger never works.

50:22Yeah. Because you can fucking help. Yeah. When you go to so-called street level, a lot of characters were talked about. Did you ever go down the road of Daredevil, Kingpin, from what Vincent has said, there were some rights issues on the Kingpin side? Right. They're not. They're not. I mean, they're things to navigate like everything else. But we did. We talked about all those characters at the whole point. We had Daredevil in our movie. Yeah. And is that, I mean, that's the thing. was the Spider-Man pantheon, is you have such an insane wealth to choose from on each one. And you know as well as I do, it's like, you know, from a fan perspective, it bums me out a little bit that I've never seen Venom, Tom Hardy's Venom, and Tom's Spider-Man.

51:06And I'm sure, how close did you guys get to that actually happening along the way? It would be great. Let's put it that way. Yeah. Do you still have hope? I always have hope. Hope? I have hope. What if we said no? No, Josh, go home and cry about it. We have hope. We have no hope. But wait, there is an animated version in the works, yes? There is, yes. There is. OK, OK. When you, I kind of alluded to this, because when I talk to you, Kevin, it's always like, you were a fan first. You came at this from a fan. You still are a fan. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about the satisfaction of seeing Spider-Man and Punisher, Spider-Man and Hulk?

51:45It must make your geek heart very happy. Yeah, it's surreal. There's a, there's a, it's not a spoiler, of this very brief moment in the movie where Spidey is perched on Hulk's back. And that's an image years ago, and certainly when we started and Amy made the Sam Raimi movies, that I never thought would have been possible. Hulk was at one studio, Spidey was at another studio, we were our own studio. So there are moments like that, and I've been lucky enough for it to happen for a quarter of a century now where, yes, my inner nerd is very, very excited about what I'm watching. Tom recently did the podcast with me and, you know, we talk about the future and, like, Miles Morales always comes up.

52:35And he said to me, like, he already has in his brain how that kind of torch is passed. Are you all in alignment of kind of, like, if and when you get there, how it goes down? If and when we get there, we'll be aligned.

52:50I mean, he has more of a creative seat at the table, obviously. It seems like this time, especially, he was there with you by the side of which stuff. He was. He was. He's Spider-Man, so he knows more about Spider-Man than anybody. And yes, of course, we love Miles. We have a movie coming out next summer. How's it looking? It looks great. Do you get a sneak peek? Do you get a sneak peek? No. I offer him a sneak peek. No, I don't. You're old buddy. What's going on? I would like to see it as a fan. I'd like to see movies. Let's go together. You guys go together. One more reminiscent thing. I mean, you talked about Sadie today, and I also think back to, like, the great choice you obviously made on Tom years back.

53:32Was it a hard choice? You put him through the ringer. I mean, as you should. You went to endless auditions, but ultimately... There were a lot of contenders, but as the choices whittled down, it became very, very clear that it was Tom. Yeah. I think the first time we actually saw him on camera, you know. That's the one. He's pretty, he was pretty hard to beat. Yeah. He just, he just has Peter Parker soul. And his agility. Like that, that's just the odd bonus that. You're also a real question. He's also the best stunt Spidey we've had. He's not allowed to do that much anymore. I know, he's always wanting to.

54:14We always have to stop him. Um, indulge, I'm gonna put your buddy on the hot seat for a second. Go, please. We have a long history of me trying to like get dirt out of you. Can I do some rapid fire with you? Please. You're so good at this. You're gonna pass all of these away. Okay. Go. I'll watch. No. Ryan Gosling wants to be Ghost Rider. Cynthia Erivo wants to be Storm. Why is Ryan Gosling not Ghost Rider? Why is Cynthia Erivo not Storm? You never know what the future may bring. both very good actors and great characters. Next. That's the rapid fire? It wasn't that rapid. No. Adam Driver. Yes.

54:54You've had conversations over a number of characters. Many, many, many. Are we getting close to getting him on board? It's no secret. We'd like to. But it's a tradition to Zoom with him and then he passes. Is that right? That's a long-lived tradition. Very cordial. It's a nice conversation. Could be more cordial. And then does he say, does he pass in the moment or does he wait to pass afterwards? Uh, he's usually up front about how he's feeling. Yeah, he does. How much time in therapy have you spent talking about Blade? This poor project, we just need to get this done, Kevin. How are you doing?

55:26Oh, therapy. Should we get into a therapy session? Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, we all want it. Mahershala wants it. How are you feeling at this moment? Uh, I'm feeling very excited that we got Wesley back for a time in Deadpool and Wolverine. and like a gigantic loser and failure that we didn't get off the ground with Mahershala. Is there a world where Secret Wars is two films? Not this world. No? No. How, Doomsday sticking to its release date? Yes. Definitely, okay. What does the MCU look like in a nutshell coming out of Secret Wars? Is it a, do you consider this a reboot? No, but I look to the comics as I always do in terms of our storytelling.

56:11And after both the Secret Wars, but particularly the Hickman Secret Wars from 10 years ago, there's a nice roadmap to where we can go. And last thing for you. How many X-Men have you cast that I just don't know about? Are people signed on right now for X-Men actors? Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Yeah. Okay. Okay. We're going to go into this more in depth. One day you're coming on Happy Seconds, Hugh's Demetrius. And I'm happy to talk Star Trek with you, other things. He'll do that. I'd rather you talk Star Trek with Amy. I was on your part. I was a Trekkie before I was a Marvel fan, so we can go there.

56:48It's good to see you both. Congratulations. Thank you. Appreciate you guys. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't sure to do this by Josh.

57:11The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadow dark, the darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real time. and when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules-light nightmare with a story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s and man, it is so good to be back.

57:54Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark every Thursday night at 8 p.m. Eastern on youtube.com slash the glass cannon with the podcast version dropping the next day. See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark.