Vince Gilligan & Rhea Seehorn

26:19And I started kind of daydreaming about this story about a guy who everybody's really, really nice to him. And everybody is really solicitous. They'd do anything for this guy. They just love him unconditionally. I mean, anybody, men, women, anybody on earth. and that intrigued me and I didn't know what the hell reason people would be so nice to this one guy for. So that's, you know, I don't know where that idea came from, but I enjoyed daydreaming about it. And then I'm thinking, well, is this two hours worth of story? Is it a hundred hours worth of story? Meaning, is it a movie? Is it a TV series?

26:57Or maybe it's a mini series, somewhere in between the two. And as I started to put a little flesh on the bones, which is just, it takes a long time, at least for me, it took months. But as this was happening, the wonderful good fortune on my part is, as I said, we're working on Better Call Saul. And Peter and I, and all of our writers, and all the crew, everybody involved in that show, just loves Ray Sehorne. She just, I guess, because the first time I had ever worked with her, and first time Peter had worked with her, all of us, and all the other actors, Bob Odenkirk, everybody. And I thought to myself, I wonder, it doesn't have to be a guy who's getting treated well by everybody.

27:44Amen. Sorry, did I say that out loud? True, true. I can hear you. Did I do that thing where my brain talks out my mouth? Okay. i really i start with character typically and i'm not really i don't really i'm not looking to have an axe to grind typically like with breaking bad when it came out uh talking all the uh reviewers who were all very very nice about it but so many questions about oh this is obviously an an indictment of the health care system of the united states and i was like no it's just about a guy who cooks crystal meth. So, you know. Sometimes it is just what it is. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

28:25So when you read this part, what turned into Carol, I mean, what a delicious part to dive into. The juxtaposition of this pretty miserable human being surrounded by this insane world event and everybody being insanely nice to her, driving her insane. I mean, give me a sense of just sort of what you made of her right from the start and what's been the pleasure of playing her in this first season. We were in an interview yesterday, Vince and I, and they were asking about and I've been asked many times, like, what do you mean by this tagline? The most miserable person on earth? Is she really the most miserable person on earth?

29:01This is so obvious that you guys all got it. I didn't because I'm that dense. You said in the new world, she's the most miserable person, which is fair. Absolutely a fair assessment. It still was part of what I was thinking from the beginning of like this misanthrope. When I read the pilot, that's the first script I got. It's the only script I had for a long time. And if you guys had only seen the pilot, that is a little bit of a separate show. It starts to dovetail in where we will go, but you know what I mean? But like the physical threat changes to a psychological threat and you kind of start to understand the humor and the other stuff we will explore.

29:45So I was reading that and I was like, oh, this is incredible. And it's also like it's physically demanding. It's emotionally demanding. Then I get the second script and I was like, oh, we're. This isn't what I thought it was going to be. It's going to be this and it's going to be that. And then it's not that. It's not that. and we keep exploring it, which I knew Vince would do because he does that and he loves to do that. But then I got so excited and then I got so scared. I was like, wait, he thinks I can do this. It's hilarious sometimes. And then it is like gut-wrenchingly painful. And then it's psychological.

30:26I was like, oh, then there's, we can't give spoilers, right? Not past two. you can talk about the first two but oh okay um and and i'm fine i'm fine in it right yeah i do okay okay this is all i will say is like it keeps going every time these tropes and these ideas the same is for you as the audience it's the same for me as the actor where i was like i think i know where it's going you might feel the same and then it changed it just kept shifting and I understand a lot of the themes and points of reference it's bringing up and believe me I stayed up late at night and Carolina and I did Miriam and I did our crew did um there are big questions to grapple with but the one of my favorite things about the show of among many is that it's the human nature question that's at the heart of it the whole time, you know, like what, what does being happy mean?

31:34What does being content actually mean? What does your success mean? How do you define success? How do you define love? How do you define like Carol? Yeah. She's the most miserable person now, but she was actually miserable before because she wouldn't even take in what was bringing her joy before that was me so i was playing miriam earlier no no like she's the buffer right she's a success she's a successful author that is just hollow inside clearly some it's there's a hole hollow or we talked about this a lot about like um why does she hate her fans so much right and we talked about it and i was vince told me rightfully so she doesn't hate them she hates herself right right and i've always thought as an actor it's terrifying to think if you believe them when you when they say you're great you have to believe them when you say you're a piece of shit but you know what i mean so it's very scary and um and also we still haven't we didn't look it up is it groucher marks or woody allen that says like you don't want to be a member of a club that wants you as a member.

32:49I feel like it's Woody that referenced Groucho Marx. I think it's Groucho originally. That's an original Groucho. And then Woody would always reference Groucho. I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were right. I thought it was the opposite. You know what? That's the point of this entire post-show discussion. That you won? You won the anecdote story? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't think I answered your question other than... You answered some questions. Those were great, though. Okay, thanks. You win. I was shitting my pants. That's the answer to my question. You did great. Thank you so much.

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36:23All of these roles present great challenges. Carolina, I mean, this is a challenging role. This is an interesting person. What do you call the people that have been? The others. Is that what we're calling them? The Others? Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, The Others. So is there a guide to playing The Others that Vince gave you, like in terms of like attitude, how happy to be, how positive to be? Yeah, I think we work with the how, I mean, Vince would push me to go further and further into that world of happiness. And we'd discuss it on set. And sometimes you would say, and that's the genius of Vince writing, because he he sees things in a way like, am I going too far?

37:05Is this going to be too far? But there's so much humor in it, you know, and it's just there's in the first scene where you see me meet Carol. There's just so much humor in it. And just. Yeah, so we just agree. We talk about who are these people and, you know, the contentment, the happiness that what they're experiencing, how you know being having the whole world in your mind having muscle memory to do any task so it was it was challenging and also not reciprocating any empathy as far as you know acting and reacting with Ray when she's having her feelings just holding space for Carol the character and having her go through her journey and holding space for her and knowing that once she comes to our side, she will understand how good this is.

38:03Right. So it's just such opposing views. Carol. Like shut up all your instincts as an actor. Absolutely. Absolutely. All the time. And there was moments where also, you know, in my first days on set, you have, you know, your first day jitters, you know, and it's like, well, this character doesn't have that, You know, normally you're like, give it to your character, whatever you're feeling, whatever you're experiencing. And I was like, you can't do that. So you have to feel confident and empowered and all these things. You couldn't be a neurotic mess. You couldn't be a neurotic mess because you're like, that's just not my character.

38:38That's just not my character. I'm just at peace. But yeah, it was it was it was a great challenge and just trusting and the whole experience. And I mean, as you guys saw, I did taxi a C-130 Hercules. No big deal. No big deal. It was for real. But that was for real, you guys. I actually did taxi the C-130. Like, for real. Yup. Which was pretty epic. You know, when do you get to do that? The Albuquerque Airport, that's for real. There is a fair bit of CG in this show and in subsequent episodes. But when you're looking out the window, the side cockpit window, and she's taxiing it through the actual Albuquerque Airport ramp, she's really doing that.

39:22Yeah, I'm using the wheel to actually taxi the plane, which is what could go wrong. Yeah, nothing. It's a good skill to have going forward. Isn't it? Yeah. We got an extra thousand bucks worth of insurance that day. so so it was great to like you know do do a lot of rehearsals even like the the scene with the excavator being able to operate that i had to know how to operate it perfectly so when you get on it it's not like i have a manual like oh okay this button oh let me you know look at google you know whatever and youtube and practicing that and what that is how that lives in my body and just when you get on whatever you do you're just an expert a perfect at whatever it is so that was a lot of fun you know, being able to practice these things and a lot of great things.

40:06I just want to say, to celebrate what she did, if you think about the way we, as humans, we mirror each other, right? Like if somebody, if you're talking to your friend and she starts to get sad, you become sad. If she takes it in a conversation, in the conversation in the direction of like an argument, then you do that. You elevate or escalate to where they're arguing. she's not allowed to do that i'm screaming at her and she's not allowed to mirror that which is not only the human reciprocity it's the actor's reciprocity but you can't look high as a kite you can't look stone you can't look like a robot please don't look stupid be smart be intelligent take it in and they were all dialing the send vince uh gordon smith alice alice and like the murderer's row that you had behind you.

40:57It was a group effort. I watched this person dial it in and I'm so in awe of what you did. But very hard job. Deceptively very difficult job. Thank you. Thank you. Having us a partner was everything. It was a gift of gifts. Miriam's job was easy. Let's ask her questions. No, but I mean the challenge for your relationship, the two of you to establish, you know we go into this show and there's obviously a long history there that you have to convey right from the beginning i mean who is who is helen to carol in your mind and how do you i don't know convey so much so quickly well i don't know you you all fell deeply in love with ray right like that's not hard to do um and i feel like when we worked together we were like oh so we're just best friends who haven't met yet like that was what that already felt like true ray is just a phenomenal actress who makes everything you have to do easy.

41:55She's so generous. And, um, and there was space provided for us to learn to, to feel like a couple and the writing is so good. And then everything was there to help you do the best you could possibly do, including to have this person who I would love to have my, I'm proposing to you right now. Is that weird? I should tell my husband. Yes. I'm gonna call my husband. Will you? No, get down on any. No, She made it easy. The writers made it easy. The whole environment made it easy. And it's fun. You're doing what we love to do, which is play make believe, which is create a story. And the story doesn't work if this relationship, you know, that loss needs to matter.

42:37right and so you feel like oh i have the the job that is really precious because i believe in this show and i have we have to do this we have to build this together so it was fun and scary and wonderful and you know um it's one of my best relationships really you guys did such an amazing job you're so you're you were adorable together right from like the first afternoon you guys met right it was like yeah we clicked so fast clicked so fast 80s music was a huge part of it yeah well in any relationship really but we did know we knew as actors like and i talked to you about this too like this has to sustain the upset the the grief of losing her best friend her partner our love of her life also her buffer to business and social world is gone and it has to inform everything and there are many decisions that my character makes for multiple episodes that are based in that grief and so we talked about that even in the scene where I lose you it's like it had to be um it had to be hard it could not be just cinematic uh because it does it has to live in our memory yeah for a lot for a long time and also if in some ways helen's the conduit for carol's happiness in some way it she's sort of um really for her career and mine well yeah but also you know she she won't allow her to close herself off from the what's beautiful about the world and what there is to love about the world.

44:17And so Helen, you know, and her character is bringing you up when she's like, can we find your joy again? It's very, I think, sinister of Carolina and shitty. Wow. Sorry. Well, that love affair ended. Oh, well. I do also appreciate, by the way, as someone that's covered like Twilight and Outlander, the profession that you gave her in that world. I don't know where you how you landed on that of all professions. I love that so much. How do you pick that? I don't really. I know I'm definitely not putting them down or anything. It just it's always the question everybody asks, where do you get to where the ideas come from?

45:00And the answer is always deeply unsatisfying because the honest answer is I don't know. It just it felt like I mean, in a weird way, I mean, I'll admit this much. I think in a weird way, Carol Sturka, by the way, named after Carol Burnett, one of her favorite people. Oh, my God. Legend. Yeah. And a character name from Twilight Zone, an episode of my favorite show, arguably my favorite show ever. It was a Fritz Weaver character in an episode called Third Planet from the Sun, I think. But his last name was Sturka, and I just liked the name, and I looked it up online, and I didn't see any reference to it except for Twilight Zone.

45:44So I just say it sounds good. But I will admit to this much that Carol Sturka is kind of in certain ways based on me, exaggerated. But, you know, the thing earlier we were talking about fans. I mean, it got us here. It's given us wonderful lives. When Carol kind of shits on her profession, you know, performatively, I think, first in the car as she's being driven away from the Barnes & Noble, and then in the bar, it is. It's this thing about this is so good. The way I see it, it's like this is so good. I'm just afraid it's going to go away like that. And so I got to inoculate myself. I have to prophylactically act like it doesn't matter in case it does all disappear.

46:37But so the writer part of it came first. But then the the romantic, the author part of it, it just it just seems like a more fun profession with with with fun fans and whatnot. I guess that's where it came from. Talk about the fans. I mean, obviously, you know, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul. I would imagine they're they're part of your lives almost every day, if not every day. fans want to reference them to you. I mean, what does that feel like? These are shows that didn't just come and go. They still live very much in people's hearts and minds. What does it mean to you when fans come up quoting the show, showing you fan art?

47:15I mean, I'm sure it continues. It means the world. I mean, I just, people think I'm being all shucks when I say I didn't know Breaking Bad would be a hit, but we just did not. I mean, I just, the best, once the show was ordered, which blew my mind, or rather once the pilot, you know, it all happens in steps. And once a pilot was ordered, I thought, this is going to be great because they're going to let me, I don't know how, why, they're going to let me direct the pilot of Breaking Bad, and I'm going to have this great calling card. I'm going to do the best I can do on it, and I'll have this 48-minute calling card I can use to get jobs.

47:56And, and I'm not, that was for real. Seriously. That was the highest I could imagine this thing could, because it's like, who the hell's going to watch this thing? And, and then, I mean, it's still, I still feel like I got to pinch myself and see if I'm dreaming. It still blows my mind to this day. That hasn't changed. And yeah, I mean, you just, you just, for the writers in the room, the folks who want to, who want to do this job, more power to you. and go down swinging on stuff you believe in because there is more failure than success. And a lot of people tell you, don't write about thus and so, that was so 2018, or don't do this thing, don't do this genre.

48:39Everybody's over that. A much better writer than I said, famously, nobody knows anything, William Goldman. And he was 1 ,000 % right. And it's going to hurt when you get kicked in the teeth and it will happen more often than not. You might as well, and it's going to hurt a little more if you really care about the thing you're working on, but you might as well go down swinging on the thing you care about. And that's my advice.

49:09100%. And for you, Ray, I mean, Kim probably still comes up again probably every day. Does it tickle you? I mean, the fact that that character cut through the way it did and still does must still boggle your mind. It does. I'll try not to cry. She will always hold a place in my heart. And I like Vince when he's writing stuff and Peter Gould when he's writing stuff. It's not setting out to preach something or do something. And I do think, and I've been doing what I do for a very long time with incredible people around me. I've had mostly exceptional experiences, but something happened on Better Call Saul where at some point, I think it was Peter that said to me, I was doing some scene with Bob and he's doing something idiotic as he does.

50:06And my character is angry and she should be. I did the scene. We rehearsed the scene and he loved it. And we're getting ready to film it. And then when we went to shoot the first take at the very end, I did like a rice smile at the end to let the character know I still got you. I'm fine. And Peter said, why do you what? I don't think we need that. And I was like, oh, oh, I was trying something. And then I just told him the truth, which was scary for me. And I said, I, I thought, and this is no offense to the other shows I've done. It's just about, we all have to know what, what show you're in, what audience are you doing a first?

50:47Are you doing black box theater? Are you like, are you doing a network, a multi-camp? Like we're all doing different things. They're all, I would never be pejorative. I'm very proud of some of the things that I've done, but they are different venues. They are a different, um, beast. He said, why are you doing that? And I said, I guess just to let him know that like, like I'm not mad, I'll still be back. And Peter, I think it was Peter said, um, as long as you have your own code of ethics and stick to it, we will love you for that. Please don't ever worry about being likable. and it was this release to me as an actress i was like um you're like deprogrammed right there like what what are you talking about because for 25 years i've been told i'd be likable but yeah and then i gotta tell you if you build it they will come that's how smart everybody is watching television like i thought But like I had to and you don't spoon feed people.

51:55And I was like, oh. And then suddenly I'm playing this character that often my closest confidant was the audience because I wasn't speaking. But Kim had thoughts. And the only person in the room that knew what I really thought about the dumb asses that were talking to me was the audience. Only them. They were my confidant. and it just became this incredible relationship and to this day when I walk around and I meet anybody on the street and it's like a the other day it might not 16 year old skater dude tatted up and he's like what's learned skating through the lights and then it's like you know a 70 year old mom like in like scrubs and she's like you meant so much to me I will never I will never get over what this character meant to so many people, male and female.

52:51And just this idea of like, pull yourself up from your own bootstraps. And like, what if you didn't have to be likable? What if you tried to get ahead and people kept shoving you down? Like, it's just, it's, I will never get over it. It's meant the world to me. And I hope they follow me in this one. And I know that Vince meant to write this character. And one of the things I'm trying to bring from Kim and this is a very different character is that license that Vince and Peter gave to me is like if I'm just true to it and I don't try to be likable and I don't try to be cute and I'm definitely not cute I know you saw the first two episodes what if I'm just as honest as I can be and it gets really really scary and I'm 53 and I was just given a lead by the top television producer in the world?

53:47What if that's okay? And what if still there's going to be a 16-year-old skater that identifies with the universal things we're trying to say about human nature? So that's what I'm trying to do. You're succeeding. That was awesome, man. Bravo. Do you guys see why I fell in love with her? Come on. Come on. this time flew by guys let's tease a little bit so there's a lot more to come and the good news is there's going to be a second season it's already been green lit that's what we heard thank you Sony and Apple TV Plus thank you guys is there anything you want to tease about you know past episode 2 Vince do you want to tell us what happens in season 2 wait is season 2 the musical episode yes and there's a lot of flashbacks about my wife I'm alive you heard it you heard it you heard woos they're demanding it brown swell demanding it i'm sorry it's not coming from me you know i love what you said earlier you know there that there are um the the show is intended to continue to surprise you and hopefully it will that is our deep intention and um we we had a lot of oh yeah i i can't give away much i'm really proud of this show it's got some crazy shit in it it's got some really dark moments and really dramatic moments and then as you've seen examples of already suddenly it turns on a dime and it's funny as hell and then it gets dramatic again and it's so elastic this show and I don't it's a credit to these ladies and to some other actors and to Samba Schutt who is Mr.

55:31Diabate who is so much fun. I love that guy. Great character. He's got Air Force Kumba, as you've seen. Air Force One. He calls it Air Force Kumba. Oh, that's right. Air Force Kumba. And Carlos Manuel Vezca. Boy, I can't wait until you meet him. He is frigging awesome. And all these actors are so great. And all these wonderful things these ladies said about me. God bless you. But it was very much a group effort. And I have a bunch of really wonderful writers. They've really delivered. And I don't know. I can't give away much. But it endeavors to be a very different kind of TV show. Can I say as a fan of it that I appreciate watching a show that asks me to come to it with conversation, asks me to think about what it's saying.

56:24I don't just sit back. I was saying this to you earlier, John. I don't just sit back and stuff food in my face. I mean, I still stuff food in my face. but and and let it happen to me i'm being asked to engage to question and to to come up with my own um hypotheses about what's being shown to me and my own feelings about it and i'm i'm activated by it i was really excited by that it's definitely a conversation starter yeah we did a lot of that on set but what if it this and that and and dissect it and yeah it was just i'm here for shows that make you write a dissertation after every episode just watch it and just forget about it you actually want to talk about it and you know have a conversation i was like i feel like it's so amazing forward television versus sit back and believe me i i sit back um anybody like below deck um i love that show but i'm just saying like sit like like oh i gotta pay attention like like uh i don't know i enjoy that i i think one of the things that you've always done well is rewarding.

57:26First of all, you assume the intelligence of the audience, and then secondly, you reward it. So if you're watching and you're like, I don't understand what just happened, it's not because like, oh, they didn't I think they missed something. There was a plot hole or the character wasn't directed. Well, it's like, no, I'm just supposed to keep watching. Like, there's a payoff for this. So that's always great. I think it's fun. It's off to an amazing start. We're going to stick around for another hour to talk Below Deck if anybody wants to stick around. I will 100 % do that. We're not going anywhere.

57:57Vince has no idea what Below Deck is. I can promise you. You do? I've heard it. I don't know what happens. Is it? Guess what happens? They sleep together. Sam, I'd watch that. So, Josh, happy, sad, confused? Which one? All of the above watching the show. That's the perfect title for this show. It kind of is. Purvis works too. That's his podcast. Congratulations, guys, on the show. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

58:46This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans.