In short
Happy, Sad, Confused episode featuring Wednesday creators Al Gough and Miles Millar. They discuss building Season 2 of Netflix’s Wednesday (showrunner work, production scale, tone, character writing), plus their broader pop-culture careers and collaborations (Spider-Man 2, Iron Man, Smallville, Beetlejuice Beetlejuice, and more). They also address how they handle fan feedback and how actors like Jenna Ortega contribute creatively.
Guests (backgrounds)
Al Gough and Miles Millar are long-time writing partners (over 30 years). They created/ran Smallville and are showrunners for Wednesday Season 2 starring Jenna Ortega and directed by Tim Burton. They also wrote story/screenplay for major superhero films including Spider-Man 2 and Iron Man (in an earlier, different development era).
Key claims
- Wednesday Season 2 (8 episodes) is “much more” work than older 22-episode network models; each episode takes 30+ production days across ~9 months.
- Tim Burton’s involvement shaped key visuals, including the “hide” creature design, after concept art wasn’t landing.
- Ortega has a “360 view,” sits in production meetings, and provides notes; she’s an EP this season.
Notable examples
- Wednesday’s deadpan humor and her “curiosity/solving” motivation (not typical hero motives).
- Tim Burton’s inspired changes: a song idea for the Nevermore car scene; the hide creature watercolor that matched the final design.
- Guest stars mentioned: Steve Buscemi and Christopher Lloyd.
- Spider-Man 2: they pitched a villain-focused approach with Doc Ock; they say their script included Black Cat and Lizard but wasn’t fully used.
- Beetlejuice Beetlejuice: Burton called them while shooting Wednesday; they emphasize “less Beetlejuice” as a key note to keep the character impactful.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Success of Wednesday
0:34 to 0:57
Discussion about the success of the show 'Wednesday' and the guests' careers.
“Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto.”
The Success of Wednesday
1:29 to 3:04
Discussion about the success of the show 'Wednesday' and the guests' careers.
“And I think you guys are going to really dig this conversation.”
Upcoming Events and Patreon
3:04 to 4:55
Host shares information about upcoming events and Patreon support.
“Briefly, I'll mention, as always, lots of events coming up, actually, some of which are sold out, some are not.”
Setting the Stage for the Interview
4:55 to 5:41
Host sets up the conversation with Al Gough and Miles Millar.
“Oh, by the way, these guys also wrote Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice.”
Working Relationship Between Gough and Millar
5:41 to 7:51
Exploration of the partnership and history between the two writers.
“So who has quit this relationship most over the years?”
The Craft of Showrunning for Wednesday
7:51 to 8:30
Discussion on the complexities of running a show like Wednesday.
“I've seen the first four broken up into two parts.”
Writing for Wednesday: Humor and Character Depth
8:30 to 10:54
Insights into writing the character Wednesday and her unique humor.
“And, you know, back then, too, you were you were kind of, you know, fighting against the other shows in your time slot.”
Genesis of the Wednesday Show
10:54 to 14:00
Discussion about the inspiration and creative process behind the show.
“And also, you know, in some in some ways, the trickiest, too, because, you know, she does things not for the reasons that a normal, quote unquote, you know, hero in a in a television series would do it.”
Behind the Scenes of 'Wednesday'
14:00 to 17:42
Learn about the creative process and collaboration behind the series 'Wednesday'.
Behind the Scenes of 'Wednesday'
19:06 to 20:27
Learn about the creative process and collaboration behind the series 'Wednesday'.
“So some of you may think what you see and hear on the podcast is the total me.”
Show all 19 chapters
Collaborating with Jenna Ortega
20:53 to 28:00
Explore Jenna Ortega's role as an executive producer and her creative contributions to 'Wednesday'.
“You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.”
Crafting a Sequel: Balancing Legacy and Innovation
28:00 to 30:26
Learn how Gough and Millar approached developing a sequel while honoring the original film's legacy.
“people's childhoods right so you know what i mean like dancing on the dancing on the knife's edge for 30 years.”
The Future of Beetlejuice: Discussions on a Potential Third Film
30:26 to 32:06
Discover the dynamics behind discussions for a third Beetlejuice film and the creative process involved.
“That's really going to come down to Tim and when he's ready to engage in that.”
Smallville's Lasting Impact and Superman's Evolution
32:06 to 34:25
Explore the cultural significance of Smallville and its relevance to modern interpretations of Superman.
“First of all, I have we have not seen it yet.”
Navigating Fan Reactions: Influence on Storytelling
34:25 to 38:05
Understand the balance between acknowledging fan feedback and maintaining creative integrity in storytelling.
“And I'm just curious, like, I don't know, do you think there's something useful about listening to the fans, about listening to the dialogue out there?”
The Evolution of Spider-Man 2: Insights from the Writers
38:45 to 42:00
Gain insights into the writing process for Spider-Man 2 and how it evolved from initial ideas.
“Look, you guys have had an amazing career and a lot of great produced stuff, a lot of stuff that was never produced.”
Behind the Scenes of Iron Man and Spider-Man
42:00 to 46:27
Discover the early development stories of Iron Man and the Spider-Man franchise.
“So it was just a lot of those strands from our script.”
Regrets and Missed Opportunities in Hollywood
46:27 to 50:52
The creators share stories about near encounters with icons like Michael Jackson.
“Look, if either of those guys called, we'd absolutely take the meeting.”
The Success of Wednesday and Career Reflections
50:52 to 54:36
Reflections on the success of Wednesday and their creative journeys.
“So we sent him the script and said, look, if you just want to come in and meet, we think you'd be perfect for this.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Labor Day savings are happening now at the Home Depot with select appliances starting at$399. Plus, save up to an extra$1 ,000 and get free delivery on appliance purchases of$998 or more. Get a Whirlpool laundry tower featuring industry-first UV clean technology designed to reduce bacteria in the wash without fading fabrics. Plus, with great prices at the Home Depot, you can save on select appliances designed to make laundry day easier. Shop Labor Day savings at the Home Depot today. Offer valid August 27th through September 16th. U.S. only C-Store online for details. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.
0:33Al Gough:Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy Sad Confused begins now.
1:28really navigated the industry well thanks to their perseverance and talent uh miles mohar al goff these might be look on happy second views we have a lot of like huge names the recognizable names like these might not be the first names that ring a bell but you certainly know the things that they have written the stuff that they have show run uh their series and films uh their current project is the second season of wednesday they are the showrunners behind this phenomenal success story led by Jenna Ortega, directed by the great Tim Burton. And I think you guys are going to really dig this conversation.
2:08They have all the stories. They have been through it. Sure, we talk about Wednesday and working with Jenna and Tim, but these guys wrote the initial story for Spider-Man 2. That's right. Like one of the all-time great Spider-Man films. They've got the dirt on that. They have the stories behind Iron Man. They wrote a screenplay for Iron Man back when it was supposed to be a Tom Cruise vehicle. Stories there. They also created Smallville, which I know many people in my life are obsessed with Smallville. We talk a lot about that. It's newfound relevancy thanks to the new Superman film. They're meeting with, they're near meeting with Michael Jackson about a project, writing for Jackie Chan.
2:57So much cool stuff. Like I said, these guys have the stories. Miles Millar, Al Goff, a great conversation on Happy, Say it, Confused today. Briefly, I'll mention, as always, lots of events coming up, actually, some of which are sold out, some are not. But I'll list them nonetheless. All of this information, check out our Patreon, patreon.com slash happy, say it, Confused. early access, discount codes, merch, all the good stuff. If you love what I do over there, go over there and try to support us if you can. Okay. In quick succession, New York City, August 13th. If you're listening to this before then, you still have a shot to come out and see me and John Turturro.
3:36Very excited about this. He's never done the pod before. Talking about Severance, but also this is a career chat and I'm going to dig into Spike Lee films, the Coen Brothers movies. There's too much to talk about, but we're going to jam a lot in. August 13th, New York City. Tickets are available for that 92nd Street Y. Link is in the show notes. August 14th, this one might be sold out, but you can see if there are tickets available. Again, through the 92nd Street Y, but actually at the Paris Theater in New York City, we are screening Thursday Murder Club, which is the new Netflix movie. Get a load to this panel.
4:14Pierce Brosnan, Helen Mirren, Ben Kingsley, Chris Columbus, all sitting down to chat. That's pretty damn cool. As I said, there might, I'm not sure if there are tickets available. The last one is the longest shot, but we are hopefully going to release a few tickets as we get closer. August 15th, Los Angeles, Here I Come, Seth Rogen, Ben Stiller. This one sold out in about a day. So we'll see if some last-minute tickets come available. Keep your eyes and ears peeled. But that's going to be a hell of a night. That's it. A lot coming up. A lot more to come. That's just the stuff I can announce. Yeah.
4:54Anyway. All right. Let's get to it. If you are... Oh, by the way, these guys also wrote Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. Tim's return to that franchise. So we talk about that too. So if you're a nerd like me that loves comic book movies, Beetlejuice, Superman, Iron Man, all the stuff. Adam's Family. You're going to dig this one. Miles Moar. Miles is the one with the British accent, for the record. And Al Goff. Great conversation. Two great, great guys and talented writers. Please enjoy. Miles, Al, thank you so much for taking the time today. I was just talking to you guys unofficially off camera that I'm big fans of your work.
5:33There is a lot to talk about Wednesday and decades of contributions to pop culture. So thanks for the time today, guys. I appreciate it.
5:42Al Gough:Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Yeah. So who has quit this relationship most over the years? Who said, that's it? I've had enough. We're done. Who's the drama queen in the pair? Let's get that out of the way. It's been shockingly, I would say, drama free. You know, we've been partners for over 30 years. And as you know, because your brother's in a partnership that they, you know, but it's very interesting because sometimes Miles and I will run into people who used to be partners. And it's like running into like divorced couples. It's like, oh, they were partners in the 90s. I mean, is the working relationship essentially unchanged?
6:24Like, have you had to kind of make adjustments over the years of the way you work with each other? Or is it kind of if I talked to you 25 years ago, was it essentially the same way you work?
6:33Al Gough:I think I think sort of spiritually it's the same logistically, as you know, with with with life. It's got we used to write together in Miles's apartment when we first started every day. You know, we would go and, you know, work from like nine to six, nine to seven and sort of back in the back in the early days. And then as it sort of evolved, we don't we always are together when we when we break the stories and and do all of that. But then sometimes just given the logistics of television and show running, you know, we will it's a little it's different. And we delight and conquer.
7:10Miles Millar:Yeah, it's definitely been an evolution in terms of that. And the complexity of these shows has just become much more extreme. You know, in our Smallville days, it was very much we're in the writer's room together, breaking, you know, 22 stories a season. this is really like breaking eight movies and then making them which is like the just the scale of production is just so much bigger so i think we've really um you have to get this divide and conquer approach and it's been very effective for us and i don't know people do it just with one person because it's like it's just the scale of work is just phenomenal well yeah and i'm you're getting at something i want to start with we're going to start with Wednesday, which is obviously entering its second season.
7:53Congratulations, guys. I've seen the first four broken up into two parts. And look, yes, you're not having to do the 22 or 24 episodes, whatever you were doing of Smallville and other shows back in the day. You're doing eight, which might not sound like a lot, but the level of production design, of filmmaking, of craft is just, you are making movies. You're essentially making movies here. So does it kind of all even out in the wash even though you're doing a third of the amount of episodes is it in a way just as much if not more work than that kind of old model oh i think it's much more much more work yeah it's just i think also it's like the the job of a network showrunner someone doing like like a
8:37Miles Millar:small village really you're in command of the writer's room and you're then you have obviously input into everything else and you oversee it all but uh just the level of of a of participation and and leadership that's needed to run a show like this is just nothing like we've experienced before so it's really uh all-consuming and there's only only eight episodes but it actually i mean it's just each episode takes you know 30 plus more days to make and we're in the nine months of the year making it which is the same the same length of time we do for 22 i mean it must be rewarding hugely rewarding not not look obviously it has touched the zeitgeist and it's obviously resonating with millions and millions of people but like also to get all the bells and whistles to get someone like tim burton directing some episodes to get again the production designers the music budget i can't imagine the music budget on this show it probably dwarfs some of the other shows you've worked on is that fair to say yeah it it definitely is you know and it's
9:42Al Gough:it's as miles said it's it's just a much bigger production because you know when you you know back in the day when you did 22 you most of them are going to be in your batting average right but then you're going to have some that were great and some no matter how hard you tried we're going to suck you know but here when you're making eight like they all have to be great and there's not a room yeah not to be there's no no they're all going to be you know great that's it
10:07Miles Millar:Yeah.
10:08Al Gough:And, you know, back then, too, you were you were kind of, you know, fighting against the other shows in your time slot. Now you're literally up against every show that's ever existed. Yeah. And the bar has been raised all around in every conceivable way. Like I said, I'm digging the new season. I love any show that I think in the first episode of the new season, Wednesday says something to the effect of I'm heading to the Junior Embalmers Convention in Kansas City. That's when that's when I I knew you had my heart. Like I was like, okay, I'm in like this. This is, this is speaking to me. Is there, is there, it must be so joyful to write that character in particular, the deadpan, the dark twisted sense of humor.
10:49Is it fair to say that's one of the most enjoyable characters in your career you've had a chance to write for?
10:54Al Gough:Yes, yes, absolutely. And also, you know, in some in some ways, the trickiest, too, because, you know, she does things not for the reasons that a normal, quote unquote, you know, hero in a in a television series would do it. She's not doing it to really save lives or to help the world. You know what I mean? She ends up doing those things, but that's not her intention. You know, hers is all about, you know, curiosity and solving something because she's the best to do it. And, you know, she's the smartest person in the room, even though sometimes she's not.
11:28Miles Millar:You know, there's sort of... Yeah, it's proven that she's right. You know, that's a lot of it. It's like, it's kind of like a lot of ego there. but it is sometimes you fall into into a sort of story and narrative tropes with her which is you go to like oh yeah she would she wouldn't do that most protagonists would but she wouldn't so it's just it's really like she keeps you honest which i think is really really fun uh as writers to to uh it's a challenge you know so she's hugely enjoyable but she's also a challenge i'd love to talk a little bit about the genesis of the show the reference points for you guys in creating this show like obviously look you have Adam's family the cartoon the the cartoons the films which were fantastic back in the day but also I really feel like this show is in communication with a lot of pop culture a lot of cinema history a lot of reference points I was saying to you before like I see stuff like referencing you know Catherine Zeta-Jones work in Zorro or Vertigo I mean for me maybe I'm dating myself but like I know people reference like Harry Potter I I remember like young sherlock holmes and i'm watching this and i'm like this reminds me of that um yeah what what were the kind of touchstones for you guys as you were crafting your pitch for this well i think it was all of those things you know because what's interesting about the
12:45Al Gough:adams family is that you had the panels you know from the charles adams cartoons and they didn't even have names until the television show in the 60s like he didn't even name them and then the tv show and to really an extent the films and even some of the animated things there it's kind of a sitcom premise where the adams family are kind of a block and it's somebody from the outside coming in and trying to steal their money or pull some scam or con on them and then ultimately getting hoisted on their own petard um and sort of our our approach was they can still be a family who with a couple things they could still be a family who love each other but doesn't mean they don't have family drama family conflict um but the the real genesis was we were like Wednesday Adams is a great character but what would she be like as a as a teenager and what if she went to high school you know and again kind of in a way like Smallville how do we tell a chapter that hasn't been told in this character's life um and then the more we thought about it we're like well she just you know cut through a regular high school in five minutes which is guess what the first five minutes of the show so and when you look at the charles adams cartoons there's these other characters in there in the background so we're like okay so there's this other world of of people of oddities
14:03Miles Millar:of outcasts and creatures i mean he has a lot of like little creatures in his his work as well so it's like oh that's interesting it's like a lot of unexplored that was like sort of inspiring too
14:14Al Gough:and so we so we kind of was like what if we put her in the in a school of outcasts and even in that school she was the most outcast so you correct me if i'm wrong you you you you pitched your take on this this predates tim's involvement tim burton's involvement yes oh yeah by by years oh wow okay so and then obviously jenna's as well talk to me a little bit about tim coming on board helping establishing i know look he is one of the preeminent visual artists of my lifetime our lifetimes um were most of his notes in that realm on in terms of the visuals like or the creative as well what was that kind of relationship like in the first season and even in this season he came
14:55Miles Millar:in he came in um we'd already written the script and actually broken the season and i had other scripts as well um and he basically loved the script so in terms of changes to the script there was an idea he had in the first episode where the family is going to because it's sad to him and his family they were in the car and they were singing a song so we had that uh royal boston song as they go to nevermore so that was something that he he inspired but it was really and then the design of the hide creature was something that we really struggled with um and we really wanted to create something that was iconic and uh sort of a signature and he was like very we got a lot of like concept artists and designs and nothing really was hitting the mark nothing's felt original i think there's actually a sort of everything in the moment all the creatures at the moment feel like they're from stranger things they all have some sort of like weird flower mouth so we were very focused on not doing that um and literally he did this tiny like literally it's like a silhouette of with a pencil of this of this like punched side creature and then he gave that to some of the concept guys they didn't get it then we get this call we're like two weeks away from production tim's at his house he says guys you gotta come over i've done something we go into his his study and he's done this amazing watercolor of the hide and it is literally like what it is in the show it was like because what do you think he was really like i'm not sure if it's like this is incredible um and it was just like it reached a point where he had to let's just do it himself so that's what you you know it was just like oh yeah we got the perfect tim burton creature in the show um monster rather and it was just like yeah so he's definitely you know it's been a really great collaboration in terms of of the look and the design and all those different elements and obviously he works very closely with colleen atwood who's this you know multi oscar winning costume designer so she brings an incredible amount of uh sort of the legacy of tim to the show i mean i think always think about uh lewis the weems and gwenthony christie's character in the first season um and just like that homage to the hiscockian heroines like tippy hedron and that's the sort of like so it's it's i mean the show is infused with film references and things like that that um we all i mean i think el and i and tim are huge cinephiles and movie buffs So I think that's something that's, it's a great playground, the show, to explore that element.
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21:01You also have a cinephile, maybe an unlikely one given her age in Jenna Ortega, who I've chatted with a bunch and maybe has better film knowledge than I do. And I'm twice her age. I mean, she's obviously an amazing acting talent, but like a true student of cinema, of music. Is she an EP this season on the show?
21:22Miles Millar:Yes, this season. Yeah. So obviously, I would think, you know, has a seat at the table, has creative input. What's it been like to kind of collaborate with her, especially in the second season of what she wanted to kind of make a mark with as a creative influence on the show?
21:40Al Gough:Well, we've always, I mean, even in season one, you know, once she was cast, you know, we've had the scripts written and we gave her the scripts to get her notes and her and her feedback on. So I think when the show is called Wednesday and your Wednesday, you've always had at the table. Some of it gets a little more more formalized. Sure. And I think I think with I mean, what she brought, certainly what she brought to the character was the whole, you know, the walk, the not blinking. like she really did a deep dive in terms of how she wanted to play Wednesday. And, you know, she, she comes with all of that to the table.
22:13Al Gough:So she's made really strong and she makes really strong, interesting choices as an actor. I mean, that, that's the thing. Even when you're like watching the, you know, watching her shoot or watching her in the scene, it's just like, wow, she just brings things to it, you know, that are great. You know, she's sort of always is always thinking about it. And I think what she also has, which again is rare, is she has sort of a 360 view of things. So when she's on set, she's watching all of it and she's taking it all in and she's absorbing it. So I think, you know, and, you know, she sits in the production meeting.
22:46Al Gough:She does all of that stuff. She gives, you know, and she'll give notes on various things and have her input, which is, you know, which is great. so and again is you know with with a television show it's always especially with the actors it's you're always in conversation with them you know movies are kind of like a party everybody comes you shoot for three months and you're gone you know but a television show is an ongoing thing and in this case it's been five years you know since yeah and we always welcome and this is
23:13Miles Millar:something you know different showrunners and creators have different ideas of of what that relationship is between actors and and writers but for us it's like it's it's that conversation outside is like we really embrace the idea of hearing their ideas and giving them ownership of the character and making sure you know that they're comfortable and that they feel hard so i think that's something that we've always embraced you know and that it's important that everyone is respected and everyone has you know a voice so that's something that you know we always sit down with them and talk about what our intention is for the season we always break the season and then say, hey, what do you think of this?
23:52Miles Millar:And get feedback and ideas from them. So it's just, there has to be a lot of communication. That's the thing. You've got to keep talking and making sure everyone's happy and feeling good about what they're doing. So as you look at this next batch of eight episodes, as I said, I've seen the first four. What are you proudest of? I mean, I would expect, look, the first season is a big swing, but given the success of the first season, I would imagine you have even more license to take a bigger swing. and certainly you brought in some amazing new guest stars you have the likes of steve buscemi in there christopher lloyd it's a treat to see him even if it's just a portion of his body um and more um yeah what what as you look at this season what are you most proud of well i think it's it
24:36Al Gough:was second seasons are tricky you know what i mean it's like it's it's great when your show hits but then what you don't want to do is disappoint the second season and as you said you want to take that swing you want to expand the world you want to kind of dive into the into the characters who you got a certainly got a taste of in season one but now they can have their own sort of subplots and and you know help kind of fill out what is already there um and i think for us that was it we didn't want to repeat ourselves we didn't want to do another kind of straight up cards down whodunit mystery so it's still very much a mystery and there's still twists and turns but um but even that's kind of you know that's changed as well so it's it's i think it's it's always the challenges people come to the show for a certain thing which you want to deliver but then
25:23Miles Millar:you want to deliver more than that sure yeah and be unexpected and i think that's always the we just we're really focused on not being complacent and that we really wanted the show to be ambitious and surprising and that an audience would really come away feeling they've seen a you know a full meal like i said enjoy enjoy a full meal of entertainment and that's always the thing the show is the real uh juggling active tone um and so i think you know we really tried to to be as ambitious as we could and we do have the you know the luxury of being you know a hit And so we wanted to just like allow ourselves to let our imaginations fly.
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26:06Miles Millar:So that was sort of our goal, but also find new ways to explore the emotion of the characters. And hopefully the season will be, you know, as deeply resonant as the first, which was like it took people by surprise that there's, that they, you know, they care about Enid and Wednesday's hug or thing almost dying. You know, these are sort of things that you don't really expect from an Addams Family show. And that's something that we've really tried to infuse in all the episodes, something unexpected that is emotionally resonant. You might as well also be talking about another of your collaborations with Tim Burton, which I do want to talk about.
26:43Congratulations on Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, which I very much enjoyed last year. Thank you. And look, anybody that knows the history of Beetlejuice and the quest for a sequel knows that was a long road and there were a lot of expectations and a lot of false starts and different ideas over the years. And I've talked to Michael over the years. I've talked to Winona a lot over the years. They are very protective of these characters. They have very specific ideas of what they did or didn't want to see. Can you talk to me? I'm almost more curious about your collaborations or input from them than Tim.
27:18Like what did Michael and Winona say directly or indirectly to you that informed what you ended up with in Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice?
27:27Al Gough:Well, that was interesting. Tim came to us. We were shooting the first season of Wednesday and he called us into his trailer one day after shooting. We thought, oh, God, is something wrong? And he said, you know, I want to do a sequel to Beetlejuice. It's the movie that people ask me about the most. Right. um and and he said and if and he and obviously he'd been talking to michael and winona and katherine and you know said if we don't do it now we're never going to do it um and so we went away and again that's you know we we seem to have this problem which is you don't want to destroy people's childhoods right so you know what i mean like dancing on the dancing on the knife's edge for 30 years.
28:07Just dancing on the night
28:08Al Gough:with these things. And you want to honor, it is always the hat trick and the tightrope with these things, which is you want to honor what's come before, but it also has to feel there is a reason to be and it's not just a cash grab, right, for these things. Yeah. It can't be cynical. You know, that's always the thing. Yeah. And I think what was great for us was Tim was literally the traffic cop for all of it. So we wrote the script, wrote the first script, got it to him, sat with him, got all of his notes. Then he gave it to, you know, Michael, Winona and Catherine. And in some ways it was a very easy assignment because you're really writing for an audience of two, Tim Burton and Michael Keaton, because if one of them says no, you literally have no movie, right?
28:52Al Gough:So you're, you're, you know, and I think what's great is, you know, Michael created such a, you know, character with Beetlejuice. And we can tell you, because we went back and read the shooting script of the first movie that voice is not in there it's not yeah so you're like wow this was all kind of it all came you know out of them so so i think for us it was you really see
29:16Miles Millar:the intervotational like freedom he had on that set originally right that that he created this insane iconic character uh that's not on the page right um but the best compliment he gave us was like he was like oh my god it's like i can't believe all this all this it sounds like him that was like it sounds like beetlejuice and i mean i guess his big note was and tim's too is like this always like less beetlejuice right less beetlejuice so we just had we we had a lot of scenes that we just like trimmed or cut or just so it just gets down to like the essence and so he is very spare in the movie and i think that's what gives him that special plot that you that when he but he's on screen it's like really impactful but you don't see a lot of him and that was really like that was michael's big thing that's like i i shouldn't be in the movie too much the less the better really yeah you go back to the original he's on in like 18 minutes of the film and you're like what oh that's the impact of that character um it is yeah he's just an agent of chaos he needles to say yeah so film did very well it sounds like the studio wants another Are you in discussions?
30:23Are you involved in developing a third Beetlejuice film?
30:27Al Gough:That's really going to come down to Tim and when he's ready to engage in that. I mean, we'll stand by and be ready. But I think I think it always like this, you know, like this one, it has to come from him and he has to feel engaged. I think that's why the movie doesn't feel cynical because he very much wanted to make it. And Tim does things for cynical reasons. He does things because he loves it and he wants to do it. And if it was a version he didn't want to do, we wouldn't have made it, to be honest. You know, that's really how he works. He's very pure that way. Like, if he's engaged, he'll make it.
31:03Al Gough:If he's not, he won't. I would imagine, though, you guys are smart guys. You've got your pitch ready when he calls and says, OK, I'm interested in doing a third one. What do you guys got? Do you have an idea? We got The Weeknd, which was good. So we were able to, because I'll be honest, I hadn't seen the movie.
31:20Miles Millar:This was the first time in Romania. Yeah, it was like the first time. We watched it on a Friday afternoon in freezing Romania. And so then, hey, guys, you want to write the Beetlejuice sequels? Like, yes. And then we spent the weekend basically watching the movie like eight times and then coming up with the pitch. But in terms of you're talking about the third movie, right? No, I mean, I think, look, I mean, we never get ahead of ourselves. So that's something that, you know, I'm sure the studio wants to do a third. But I think I think it's really up to Tim and Michael and Winona to decide that they want to do it.
31:59Miles Millar:You know, and Catherine. So, look, a lot of the folks tuning into this love your work from Smallville. I want to talk a little bit about Smallville and especially given that we've just had a very successful Superman film out in theaters, which have you guys both seen it by now?
32:13Al Gough:First of all, I have we have not seen it yet. We've been sort of heads down finishing season two of Wednesday. Okay, fair enough. You know enough, though, to know that James has talked in glowing terms about Smallville, that Nick has talked about Rosenbaum's interpretation of Luther, that Luther core is in the movie. It must please you that there's real connective tissue and love from what you did to this new big screen interpretation. It's absolutely. Look, it's great. And it's great when a Superman movie works. And it's it's great that the movie is it doesn't do it doesn't fall into the traps of trying to be an origin story again.
32:56Al Gough:All of the things and it sort of embraces, you know, his kindness and it's fun. I think that that's the thing. Yeah. Wonderful about it. And I, you know, look, Smallville is the gift that keeps on giving. There's something about Superman that always resonates with people like that is why he's lasted so long. You know what I mean? Because he can be interpreted for for any, frankly, any generation or any version of the world in which you're in, you know, and certainly for us. You know, it was interesting with Smallville because, you know, we remind people there was no Marvel Cinematic Universe. The last iteration of of of Superman had been Lois and Clark, which, again, was kind of a 90s yuppie version of of Superman.
33:38um and so when we did it you know we premiered you know a month after 9-11 and it was oddly
33:46Al Gough:just became the right show at the right time you know what i mean it was like american needs a hero and it's sort of sort of comfort food for the american soul you know and to tell tell that story in that era was great and i mean look we did not expect it like like any of these things you know people say with wednesday did you think it was going to be so big of course not you never you never know you go we we really you know at the time with smallville we love the pilot we love the episodes we were making the fact that it connected with people and in such a way is is great and the fact that it still connects with people and you know it's sort of yeah and i think
34:21Miles Millar:the people who grew up with the show are now making movies and starring in movies so it's like great to hear that you know it's smallville was his superman i mean i think what's also interesting like we always saw superman as a great allegory for immigration that he's the ultimate illegal alien and that's that's the fact that james said that and it's like so contrapartial was sort of like i couldn't believe it's like that's so like it's big embedded in what it is
34:46Al Gough:yes but we um but but you know we did an episode in season six with where we sort of talked about it directly you know clark finds a boy who's you know working on one of the farms you know who that
34:57Miles Millar:boy was i think it was it was tyler posey it was tyler posey yeah yeah yeah but he was like he was
35:03Al Gough:like 10 or something yeah um and we and i remember at the time and this is again 2006 the network was like i don't know this feels a little political for the show we're like it's literally the superman story what do you want to take it up with the original guys yeah yeah it's so strange it was
35:20Miles Millar:like that's like it's the fact that it's still a controversial idea it's like that's just so great about you know the superman story that i think that's why it's so it's it's it's legacy has been so powerful you know it really speaks to what the american dream is and all those sort of elements of americana you know well it gets a little bit at what i also want to talk about which is like the nature of where we're at today versus when you were doing smallville like certainly the internet was around and there were message boards but now it's such a the interaction the weaponization of anything you say, of any storyline, it all becomes fodder for something.
35:56And I'm just curious, like, I don't know, do you think there's something useful about listening to the fans, about listening to the dialogue out there? Or is that dangerous for a writer? Like back in the Smallville days, were you listening to the fans? Did that ever like influence where you went with any of the characters?
36:13Miles Millar:Listening to Ain't It Cool News? Exactly. Did Harry Knowles influence any seasons? Yeah. exactly i think harry knoll's not a fan i don't think of smallville but it was like a it's we we were such an early days of like fan boards for smallville but we did listen in terms of we didn't listen but we we read and we acknowledged we got a lot of criticism early on about being freak of the week um right and it's just when you're doing network it's very hard to pivot if you're like you know 10 episodes in it's like oh yeah we agree but you can't really do a lot um and even in such a that first seasons of any show whether it's streaming or network are just so insane it's it but if you know season when the season one of winter came out we obviously got a lot of uh we definitely you know you don't want to be slavish to it or um overreact or but to fan comments or to this but you you do take note of things that resonate with you in terms of things and ideas or criticisms like oh yeah that's fair enough yeah and you know it it does allow us to shape what we're going to do in the future it doesn't mean we're going to like like oh my god like freak out but it's good it's good honest yeah i think it's the important thing is to be honest as a writer and a creator it's like okay this is fair um and how do we change and how do we improve i think it's always about never settling and never being complacent and always like just being open i think that's always the thing i think just open and and listening i think is a two traits that we really uh aspire to in terms of just like yeah okay that's that's that's right that's good and moving forward with that um an open mind and listening if you only listen to the fans on the internet this season would have just been eight episodes of wednesday dancing they would have just been like okay you wanted it here it is
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39:16Look, you guys have had an amazing career and a lot of great produced stuff, a lot of stuff that was never produced. I mean, a lot of comic book related stuff. So if you'll indulge me, I do want to like get your take on what your takes were on some of these or how far along you got. You do have a story credit on Spider-Man 2 for My Money, one of the great comic book movies ever made. From what I've read, and correct me if I'm wrong, your story, your script had Doc Ock, but it also had black cat and lizard. Like what was your take on Spider-Man 2 and how much ended up in what we saw in Raimi's film?
39:52Al Gough:You know, it's interesting. They approached us. We were doing the first season of Smallville and we got a call that Sony wanted to meet with us. It was a general meeting. They wouldn't tell us. And we were so into it. We're like, okay, but can we do this later? And they're like, no, they really want to meet you. So we go there and we meet with Matt Tolmach who was running production at the time. And we were sort of, you know, they love Smallville. And then they took us over to the set where we met Laura Ziskin who produced it and Sam Raimi. And they said, we love, and literally the pilot had just premiered like a month before.
40:21Al Gough:And they said, we, we loved your show. We love what you're doing. We'd love you to write the sequel. And we were like, okay.
40:28Miles Millar:It was like, we're in the middle of like, it was like, just like the tsunami of work for season one of Smallville. It's like, what do you say? Like, you want to write, you know, Spider-Man Tuesday. It's like, oh yes. Yeah. The sequel to like the biggest superhero movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
40:43Al Gough:But also, you know, it's always funny with movies because they're like, what could a sequel be? And it's like, I mean, literally most television shows, especially in the network days, are one long second act. Right. Like your pilot is your premise and then you're in the second act. and our approach was with great power comes great responsibility but what if you never wanted the powers and then he he started losing them and became like superhero reptile dysfunction you know and the idea that the world was moving on you know mj was getting married to jonah's son and and doc ock was they they said we want doc ock to be the villain we were like great because that to us was like the best best villain yeah but also you know and to sam's credit is he always tried to find the humanity in the villain so we we actually worked with it was michael crichton's researcher who helped us come up with the with the arms and the inhibitor chip the idea that he was using this for other experiments something goes wrong and then they take over and that was what sort of villainizes him so so that very much you know came to and then and then okay now this has happened peter has to get back in the game but the but his abilities aren't working and it's really about you know because he can't be honest with with mj you know that that's really that's really what it was and then the the other thing too which is interesting is from the first movie is again this is like the old days before you know now they've got the eyes moving and stuff is they're like we need to get his mask off more in situations so yeah it was like because because
42:10Miles Millar:we'd done some adr in the first movie with the green goblin and was just like it was it was they were all worried before the movie came out yeah that there was there's a scene on the on the roof was it was green goblin talking to spider-man they both had masks on their mouths didn't move this was like two masked figures just like it was it felt like power rangers right so it was like they were really worried it really what it really did it was like okay we can't do this again so in the second movie he's always taking his mask off and talking um but the other thing i remember we talked about was like the the idea of the the graduate ending at the church yes you know that I felt like that was definitely a reference there.
42:48Miles Millar:So it was just a lot of those strands from our script. I don't think we had a black cat to be out.
42:57Al Gough:I think we talked about it, but didn't put her in the script. You know, because you just kind of overstuffed the bag, you know. So talk about a different time. You also, correct me if I'm wrong, before Favreau and Feige and the MCU. You wrote an Iron Man script, and I believe this is back when Nick Cassavetes was going to do it. What was your take on Iron Man? It was Avi Arad had come to us after Spider-Man 2 and said, we have another...
43:30Miles Millar:We'll say, by the way, Avi and Kevin Feige were working out of a... Was it like an old balloon?
43:37Al Gough:balloon no it was called like toy toy fair or something it was it was obvious kind of company but it was literally this small office on santa monica boulevard down from you know and the century city mall you know what i mean it was really they they kept things very lean and mean so you know when you're sitting in a room it's like the two of us kevin and avi and that's it
43:57Miles Millar:like that was it yeah um it was all because there's these off to spider-man too because guys you know we want you to do we got another crown jewel which is iron man and it was at new line
44:07Al Gough:at the time right that's right yeah no it was a new line and to be honest with you i i hadn't heard of iron man and avi goes perfect and he goes here's here's what he is he's a he's a billionaire who sells weapons he's a he's a got an alcohol problem and you know there's there's there's an accident now he's trying to make it make it work you know make it better so we thought oh this is interesting. Like just a totally different, it wasn't another teen superhero, which we were, after Smallville and Spider-Man, we were like, oh, okay. So we did a draft, several drafts. We worked on that for probably a year and we went in with Kevin and Avi.
44:46Al Gough:And I remember, you know, I guess Bob Shea at the time had read it. And, you know, it's an interesting thing with generations trying to still connect with what a superhero is. And he got all tied up that Iron Man could fly. He goes, because Superman could fly. Can he just leap from building to building? And we sort of all walked out of that meeting and we're like, we don't think this is going to happen here. And again, to Kevin and Avi's great credit, then they kind of got the character back and did the version, which basically is, I mean, that movie's fantastic.
45:17Miles Millar:I mean, it's a... Yeah, but once they moved to, did that, our script was dead. Yeah, our script was dead. It was like... Stayed in New Line, so... Was there ever even like a dream casting in your mind? did you write with an actor in mind or was do you remember one being mentioned well they wanted tom cruise they wanted tom cruise at the time right right and i think cruises interested yeah yeah yeah yeah that's an interesting different alternate history that i yeah i mean absolutely right yeah yeah yeah um a couple a couple others tell me if these were real if you actually wrote scripts or not if anything strikes your memories flash lobo and are there any others that i'm
45:55Al Gough:missing of superhero films no okay no no the only the only other one we did is we we did an Aquaman pilot that was going to be a spinoff of Smallville with Justin Hartley that that we unfortunately did it the year that the WB and the CW merged and the politics of that situation killed that one got it yeah and what look obviously Wednesday hopefully I'm sure will continue it's going to keep you very busy for the foreseeable future but do you have an appetite You've done a lot, clearly, but do you have an appetite for a superhero film at this point? If Feige calls, if Gunn calls, is there a hero that you would like that you imagine you could have a take on?
46:34Al Gough:Look, if either of those guys called, we'd absolutely take the meeting. We have a real problem with saying no.
46:41Miles Millar:Yeah. Yeah. So we've definitely, yeah. I think there's always, I think for us, it's, we've actually always done well and, um, on characters who we don't really know. And it gives us a freedom to have our own take on that. Like Wednesday was like a huge Wednesday Addams fans from our youth or huge Superman fans. We're just like, but once we like connect with a character and like get into it and think what's our spin on this life and how do we explore them? and um and i guess you know to be the cliche add complexity to those characters that everyone knows um that's when we get sort of excited and inspired and that's true both superman clark can't end wednesday it's like both characters that wouldn't necessarily have said before we did them like oh yeah we're huge adams family fans i mean we knew the adams family and appreciated them but we weren't like you know rabid fans it's it's fascinating like the nature of your kind of career, and I know it's a little bit because my brother has kind of been in the same space for a while, is like you end up collaborating and pitching sometimes these people that you grew up with that you revere, you know, whether it's like the Tim Burtons and look, I know, look, you obviously worked on Lethal Weapon 4 and Jackie Chan work.
47:53Like the stories you must be able to tell of having to like pitch these icons to their faces could fill up a few memoirs, I would imagine. Like, have you, those are the ones I know about. So, like, I'm just curious, have you pitched Spielberg, Tom Cruise, like, I don't know, The Rock or Vin Diesel? What are the stories that jump out at you of being like, how did I get in this room?
48:15Miles Millar:We definitely pitched Spielberg. Yeah. I mean, the best one was the Jackie. Jackie pitching Shanghai Noon. That was a good one, Al. You say that, tell that story.
48:23Al Gough:Yeah. So we go in, we got a call. We were working on Lethal Weapon 4 and Jonathan Glickman, who produced the Rush Hour movies, who we had known, called us and said, look, if we have this movie we're making with Jackie, if it makes 50 million dollars, we want to make another movie with Jackie, not a sequel, another movie. And he has an idea. We're like, great, what's the idea? Because he wants to do a Western. We're like, great, what's the idea? And they're like, that's the idea. So we so we that's your job now.
48:52Miles Millar:You fill in the rest. Yeah, exactly.
48:53Al Gough:digitally yeah so we we go in and we're pitching uh we're pitching jackie and it's jackie and his
49:01Miles Millar:manager and john we're in this airstream trailer yeah and they're all smoking cigars and neither our i smoke it was the whole of this trailer was like a ball of cigar smoke yeah it was like it
49:15Al Gough:was like getting getting a contact high and then when you pitch jackie would then start to get ideas and then he'd stand you up and kind of use you as the dummy and show you what he wanted to do
49:25Miles Millar:so yeah so that was amazing that was cool yeah and the other one the picture that got away this is a weird story is that we did uh the mummy uh three and then we get a call from my agent that uh michael jackson wants to meet us and he wants to fly us out to vegas so he has an idea for aladdin that's what's the stuff that's like okay we're like it's like okay and we're in the middle of something really like on a deadline or something really crazy so we you know we're not going to do that because guys you you can't turn down michael jackson so it's like we're not gonna we're too busy at this moment give us six months that's just like and of course and then they said
50:09Al Gough:oh he's coming to la because he's rehearsing for his o2 concerts for for for that so we were like okay great when he's in la we'd love to do it and then like a month later he was dead so yeah so never had the audience but had the invitation that's crazy no yeah yeah we were like we should just take it we were like oh we were like it would have been like meeting elvis right did he want to play aladdin i guess yeah he wanted the genie like yeah i don't know it was one of those things like it was like i didn't know if we would you know we just didn't want to do it because we
50:41Miles Millar:wouldn't have done the movie would have been an interesting like encounter with someone who's such you know a presence but yeah so that was like that's one we one we regret the one that got away yeah okay the last one the last thing i want to mention is again we've only touched on tip of the iceberg of your career but um one show that's become more interesting even than like you know i mean it was interesting at the time but given what he's become is shanara chronicles and you gave us amazing Austin Butler who I chatted with I mean I work I work at MTV still to a degree so I've crossed paths with Austin back then I don't know I mean you obviously saw something in him then but did you see what he's become when you worked with him on Channara he he Austin always
51:24Al Gough:we had seen him we were we were it's funny we were casting that show and into the Badlands in the same building and it talked about a tale of two cities for AMC remember this was at the height of amc anybody would come in and audition for an mtv show it was like pulling teeth so austin had come in to audition for into the badlands and done a great job and i was a fan of his from the carry diaries because i i've seen him in that right and so we called him and said we the role in badlands was oliver stark ended up doing that role and we had already seen him and but we said we have this other show you could be the lead it shoots in new zealand and he had shot new zealand before when And I know the movie because my kids watched it on a loop called Aliens in the Attic, which he had, you know.
52:09Al Gough:So we sent him the script and said, look, if you just want to come in and meet, we think you'd be perfect for this. And then he came in and he was perfect for it. And he could not have been lovelier and incredibly hardworking, you know, always wanted to get better. All he wanted to do was better. Like he's in his work ethic is incredible. He's a lovely person. And so for him to have all of the success that he's had is fantastic. We couldn't be happy. We ran into him at a Golden Globes party because we were there for Wednesday and he was there for Elvis. And we were just like, you know, you're you know, it's like it's so great to see.
52:47Al Gough:And he told us because remember the scene of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood where he gets on the horse at the Spahn Ranch and he rides and it's a winner. And he learned how to ride on Shannara. And he said, he goes, I told Quentin, he goes, it was Shannara to thank for that. And I remember the horse wrangler in New Zealand was like, this guy's a natural. He's amazing. Amazing. So, yeah, we couldn't be more thrilled for him. He's a great guy and a fantastic actor. So, well, congrats again on this new season. I've only seen the first half. Anything we should tease on the back four of Wednesday? Anything you can say?
53:23Al Gough:Just hold on because the ride gets a lot wilder. Yeah. I also say it must be especially satisfying look again you guys have put in the work for a long time I think Wednesday was the first time you got an Emmy nod for your work the nerds have won the games came around
53:42Miles Millar:30 years in the making it's the thing that astonished us the most it's taken us this long but to have this hit at this time of our lives it's incredible so it's you know we couldn't be more thankful it's also a good time to have it actually i'd rather have this kind of hit now that you know you could you really appreciate it having had smallville and this is like next level it's just it's really like it's really amazing we couldn't be more thrilled or grateful no i mean look any any writer or creative in the industry knows how tough it is to create one thing that resonates but to see what you guys have done in different periods at different points in your life in different ways is really a testament to your work ethic and talent.
54:27So congratulations on everything, guys. Congratulations on the new season of Wednesday. And thanks for the time today. Thanks, Josh. Thank you so much. Take care. Thank you, guys. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't supposed to do this by Josh.
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From the publisher
Whether it's Superman or Spider-Man or Wednesday Addams, Miles Millar and Al Gough have made a career of giving their unique take on iconic characters. Here they join Josh to chat about SMALLVILLE, SPIDER-MAN 2, WEDNESDAY, their early script for IRON MAN, and more!
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